An apology - II

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

cross-posted with P.F.Change!

I am terrified that he is going to yell at me and see me in church later on down the line and give me the evil eye.  I have such low-worth and am such a mess right now that if he is mean or flippant, I will be devastated.

I am afraid that he is going to tell me what I already think - that I am going to hell.  I broke one of the big ten commandments.  This is a huge sin.

If a priest does either of those things then he's a terrible priest. That's all there is to it. But if you aren't comfortable with this particular person, then why not take him up on his offer to meet with another priest? Or go and meet with him and see how you feel in person and then decide if you want to open up or schedule a meeting with someone else. Some people just aren't good with email and, of course, he had no way of knowing how fragile you are right now - maybe he'd be better in person? But Sheep, it's really all about you and what you need right now - make sure you find someone you feel safe with. If he's going to be away for a week then perhaps another priest who would be available for follow-up would be better, just in case?

Sheep, you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong here, but my understanding of God is that he forgives everyone everything. He forgives even the biggest of sins. In fact, did Jesus not tell one of the men on the cross beside him, a condemned murderer, that because he repented he would see him in heaven? Murder is a pretty friggin' monster of a sin and if that guy could be forgiven, then you are already forgiven.

[arabella]

cross-posted with P.F.Change!

I am terrified that he is going to yell at me and see me in church later on down the line and give me the evil eye.  I have such low-worth and am such a mess right now that if he is mean or flippant, I will be devastated.

I am afraid that he is going to tell me what I already think - that I am going to hell.  I broke one of the big ten commandments.  This is a huge sin.

If a priest does either of those things then he's a terrible priest. That's all there is to it. But if you aren't comfortable with this particular person, then why not take him up on his offer to meet with another priest? Or go and meet with him and see how you feel in person and then decide if you want to open up or schedule a meeting with someone else. Some people just aren't good with email and, of course, he had no way of knowing how fragile you are right now - maybe he'd be better in person? But Sheep, it's really all about you and what you need right now - make sure you find someone you feel safe with. If he's going to be away for a week then perhaps another priest who would be available for follow-up would be better, just in case?

Sheep, you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong here, but my understanding of God is that he forgives everyone everything. He forgives even the biggest of sins. In fact, did Jesus not tell one of the men on the cross beside him, a condemned murderer, that because he repented he would see him in heaven? Murder is a pretty friggin' monster of a sin and if that guy could be forgiven, then you are already forgiven.

[arabella]

I can't thank you enough for all of your comments.  But I need to clarify.

I was not raped by him and what you are forgetting is that after a while, I did enjoy it.  Actually, wanted it.  I felt practically a hum when he was around and I wanted nothing more than for him to touch me and hold me.  I told him I loved him.

All of this just makes me shake now and makes me want to vomit.

You don't have to be raped to be sexually abused or molested. Or to feel just as awful. I didn't forget what you told us - but that's how something like Stockholm Syndrome works, you come to love and sympathize with the perpetrator. That's part of the whole mess/madness and it's how so many abusive people get away with their crimes. Am I saying that you couldn't have made other choices? No, of course you could have. What I AM saying though is that it's not a simple matter of you having an affair and taking on 100% of the blame for it. There is more under the surface and, until you acknowledge that, it's going to be very difficult to process and move forward. You are trying to avoid half the issues and then wondering why you're stuck! This isn't a free pass, but it's a component of the puzzle you are trying so hard to solve.

I've known people who have had affairs. Good people. People who were ashamed and horrified with themselves after the fact. But they were not so completely devastated. The only time I have heard the types of things you are saying is from victims of sexual assault (not necessarily rape). All of your reactions are 100% NORMAL - but some of them are reactions from regretting an affair and some of them are reactions from being sexually violated and I think it might be important for you to separate the two things.

p.s. I addressed the religious stuff in a reply in your other post.

[Suzn]

I am afraid that he is going to tell me what I already think - that I am going to hell.  I broke one of the big ten commandments.  This is a huge sin.

He has no idea what you want to confess. No clue what so ever. He hears confessions of many and I assure you you will not be the first with this confession.  

These are just a very few, there are pages and pages I didn't post here.

Ezekiel 18:31-32

Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Isaiah 30:15

This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: "In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength.

Acts 3:19

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.

I am sitting here just unsure as to what to do in response to the priest and I realized that part of it is that I am terrified and part of it is that I don't feel it's time to be forgiven.  That it shouldn't be so easy to wipe the slate clean and be forgiven.  That what happens after that?  I'm still going to be a mess.

Maybe I am crazy, after all.

You feel it's not time because you haven't reached a point to forgive yourself yet. I agree you may be a mess for a while, you are consumed with this guilt at the moment. You will get past this sheepdog.

I don't KNOW that ANYTHING happened in my childhood.  I don't KNOW that.  So I have to go on this as something I did.

Ok, then let's go with this for now. This is accountability. This is personal inventory. You are talking through this with your group, your T, your priest and you are basically "fessing up" for your behavior, your "role" in this relationship. This is a process sheepdog and you are moving through it. You are on the right track. It's painful, growing hurts sometimes. You will cry till you're done crying and then it will change. It will get better.  

[Grey Kitty]

  Three days of crying. Or was that three more? My heart goes out to you.

... . part of it is that I don't feel it's time to be forgiven.  That it shouldn't be so easy to wipe the slate clean and be forgiven.  That what happens after that?  I'm still going to be a mess.

God may forgive you by just wiping the slate clean. I dunno... . all I know is that however it happened, God has already forgiven you. I don't do it that way, for myself or anybody else.

For me, forgiveness isn't erasing a past transgression. It is deciding to let it be in the past, and live in today. Knowing that there is no un-doing. Knowing that I won't do it again. Knowing that I'll do what I can to make things better today.

You say you are still going to be a mess. I believe you. Forgiving yourself is the beginning of healing, or of a new phase of healing. You will know when you are ready for it. 

[MaybeSo]

You felt HEARD with him.

This is huge.

Can you share more about that? In what ways have you not felt heard in your life? If someone sees or hears you in a way we have always thirsted for... . the experience is truly compelling and intoxicating.

Being seen and heard feels incredibly accepting and validating.

We often long to get from others what we refuse to give ourself.

[P.F.Change]

This stood out to me:

... . what you are forgetting is that after a while, I did enjoy it.

Many victims of sexual abuse--especially children--feel especially guilty because it feels good when our sexual organs are stimulated. They may feel ashamed for liking it or think it is their fault because they do like those feelings. There is a big misconception that sexual abuse always hurts or that the victim never feels pleasurable sensations.

The thing that really hits me about your statement is not that you enjoyed those sensations--after all, they are *supposed* to feel good--but that you enjoyed them "after a while." This implies that you submitted to his sexual touching *without* liking it, and kept on doing so... . liking it "after a while" does not really necessarily mean you actually *wanted* it.

I don't know what may or may not have happened in your past, and that is a bridge to cross later, in therapy, once your psyche feels safe enough to explore it. I do agree that *if* something happened to you as a child, when you were helpless and confused, the feelings you describe about your sexual encounters with this man would be part of that bigger picture. They are part of the same color scheme.

There are emotional components here, too, as MaybeSo pointed out. Some things felt good to you emotionally. Sex isn't just about the body. Feeling heard is a very basic need. It isn't wrong to want to be heard. Do you feel heard in your marriage? In your friendships with women? Did you feel heard by your parents?

PF

[Phoenix.Rising]

Hi Sheepdog,

Confession can be good for the soul.  I'm glad you are confessing to a priest.  I did that years ago when I was at a place in my recovery where I needed to 'unload' a bunch of garbage that I had been carrying for a long time.  It was a relief and a release to tell the priest, and I let him hear it all.  He did not look at me strange, or tell me I was bad, or I was going to hell.  He accepted me right where I was and I felt ok.  As for whether or not you feel it's time to be forgiven, forget what you 'think' and/or 'feel'... . just take the action and 'act as if'.  The feelings will follow.  My feelings are always not accurate.  Put one foot in front of the other and ACT.  You are already taking action. 

You can't see it right now, but you are in a position of strength.  I feel you are on the right path.  Keep going.   

Phoenix.Rising

[sheepdog]

You're right, arabella.  I am completely devastated.  I just keep having wave after wave of panic attacks.  I just want to be gone.  To give my husband the freedom to find someone true that has integrity.

I talked to my therapist last week and she said panic attacks are your body saying that something needs to change.  

I answered the religious stuff in my other post but now it is not there?

I don't feel heard by many people.  I don't feel heard by members of my family.  I have friendships with women but honestly, they don't run deep from my side.  My friends tell me their problems and I am there for them but I hold my cards very close and always have.  I don't really share parts of myself with others.  I shared a lot with BPD.

I feel very heard by my husband.  When we were first together, his mother and sister made some disparaging comments about things - my family, some other stuff.  It really hurt my feelings.  I told my husband that but he never really did anything about it.  He said he knew what his mom was like, she wouldn't listen, and it was no use trying to talk to her.  I feel disloyal even saying this but it's the only time I've ever felt not heard by him.  Now his family and I get along great and he is and truly always has been such a support for me.

To be fair and honest about the sexual stuff - when BPD and I first met, I had NO attraction for him at all.  None.  For several months, I only looked to him as a friend.  But as time went on and he loaded on the compliments and told me all this stuff and the crazy behavior got ratcheted up, I started to think about him in that way.  I never would have acted on it but I am not going to lie and say that I didn't wonder what it would be like to kiss him.  Then, the first time we were physical and several times after that, yes I did dissociate.

Yes, he did make me feel heard, he listened, he cared until... . he didn't.  But I was too far sucked in by then to get out.

I have an appointment set up with a priest next week.

I can't help feeling this is it.  

The last summer of me and my husband.

I don't think that I am ever going to recover from this.

I keep mentioning that BPD has the albums, he has the blown-up photograph my husband made for him.  No one has addressed any of that.  But that stuff just kills me.  Just absolutely kills me.  Makes me want to curl up in a hole in the ground and disappear.

My husband and I used to have a saying that was just ours.  One of those cute sayings most couples have that is just theirs.  I believed that saying.  It was kind of along the lines of he and I against the world or together in the world.  No matter what kind of day I had, how bad I felt, what was going on - coming home and having my husband hold me and talk to me always made me feel better.

I have crushed that.

You can't ever get that back.  You can't ever undo what's been done.  How is he ever going to want to stay married to me knowing that someone else has been with me?

I don't want to stay with me.

[arabella]

I am completely devastated.  I just keep having wave after wave of panic attacks.  I just want to be gone.  

***

I can't help feeling this is it.  

The last summer of me and my husband.

I don't think that I am ever going to recover from this.

I keep mentioning that BPD has the albums, he has the blown-up photograph my husband made for him.  No one has addressed any of that.  But that stuff just kills me.  Just absolutely kills me.  Makes me want to curl up in a hole in the ground and disappear.

Sheep, I don't recall if you said you were on any sort of medication... . I'm not AT ALL trying to downplay how real your feelings are, or how awful your experience is, but I really do think you should speak to a doctor. You're talking about panic attacks and classic signs of clinical depression here. Yes, there is a reason for it all, but your brain is stuck now! The inability to stop the fatalistic thinking patterns, the utter dispair, etc. If you ARE taking medication - please speak to your doctor about perhaps adjusting your prescriptions, something is not working here.

Have you spoken to your H about the albums or the picture? I know you are trying not to disclose everything right now, you are still processing. But you did say that your ex was gone from your lives anyway. I'm wondering if your H might be able to help you address even just this little portion? Ultimately though, I have felt as you do - I've had items of emotional value to me taken by people whom I wish I'd never even met. It's easy to become obsessed by the idea that they've somehow taken a piece of your life, of you, with them. The only advice I ever got was to take my thoughts firmly in hand and remember that these are just things. It's just stuff. It is not a piece of you. It is a gathering of inanimate material - nothing more. A piece of the past that is never coming back and holds no power. Everything you are is contained within you, sheep.

You can't ever get that back.  You can't ever undo what's been done.  How is he ever going to want to stay married to me knowing that someone else has been with me?

I don't want to stay with me.

You CAN get that back. If it ever really left. No, you can't undo anything, but you can move forward. You can heal. Your H can heal. You can both forgive. Couples recover, and thrive, after all sorts of trials (affairs included).

Sheep, something else occurred to me: are you afraid of having people forgive you? Because as long as they don't forgive you, you don't have to forgive you either... . You seem to be using the assumption of their rejection as a device to punish yourself?

[Grey Kitty]

You're right, arabella.  I am completely devastated.  I just keep having wave after wave of panic attacks.  I just want to be gone.  To give my husband the freedom to find someone true that has integrity.

I talked to my therapist last week and she said panic attacks are your body saying that something needs to change.  

 I see how devastated you are. I don't believe that you deserve it either. 

I don't feel heard by many people.  I don't feel heard by members of my family.  I have friendships with women but honestly, they don't run deep from my side.  My friends tell me their problems and I am there for them but I hold my cards very close and always have.  I don't really share parts of myself with others.  I shared a lot with BPD.

This sounds like something worth exploring. The desire to be heard is important. I find myself opening up very completely with some people or at some times, and staying at the surface with others or at other times. I can't explain why I change back and forth. It is an area I'm wondering about in myself. I wish I had some good answers for you other than a suggestion that you keep looking there now and again.

You can't ever get that back.  You can't ever undo what's been done.  How is he ever going to want to stay married to me knowing that someone else has been with me?

I don't want to stay with me.

I'm going to defend your husband here, because you are doing something completely unfair to him.

You have no right to say what he should do or will want to do.

The question of whether he wants to stay married to you is for him alone to answer.

I'm a little touchy about that myself, because my wife (when she was having BPD episodes) would sometimes say things like that about how I should leave her, etc. And I know that she had no business telling me what was supposed to be in my mind or what was in my mind.

I don't know him, so I don't know what he'll do. My guess is that he loves you, wants to stay with you, and will forgive you.

 GK

[123Phoebe]

I just keep having wave after wave of panic attacks.  I just want to be gone.  To give my husband the freedom to find someone true that has integrity.

Hi Sheepdog,

I'm going to go totally out on a limb here... .   There just seems to be so much beating yourself up here and I'm not sure why?  I apologize for not being able to connect with you here; I wish I could, but I just cannot.

Could the reason you got involved with this BPD guy to begin with be because you're not totally and completely 'complete' with your husband in the first place?  And the BPD guy awoke something else (ALIVE!) inside of you and now you feel incomplete and somewhat dead or discouraged in its absence?  I say 'ITS' absence, because what he awoke has been inside of you all along... .   It's not anything your husband can give you or bring to life.  The BPD guy couldn't do it again even if he tried, either... .   It all happened in a time, place and space in your life that you were receptive to it, for whatever reason.  It happened for no necessary purpose or reason, it just DID.

And it's hard to make sense out of or to put neatly into the constructs of what you think you're supposed to do with it... .

Like you're holding on to it for dear life... .

And you're willing to let it destroy you... .

For what?  For what reason?

I'm all about simplicity... .  

Let it go, and thanks for the memories... .

Of a time, place and space where you felt free to love unabandoned... .

And here we are.

Reality.

How can you make your reality just a bit more magical?

By getting in touch with what it is you really desire out of life

It's not selfish, it's essential.

[sheepdog]

I just keep having wave after wave of panic attacks.  I just want to be gone.  To give my husband the freedom to find someone true that has integrity.

Hi Sheepdog,

I'm going to go totally out on a limb here... .    There just seems to be so much beating yourself up here and I'm not sure why?  I apologize for not being able to connect with you here; I wish I could, but I just cannot.

Could the reason you got involved with this BPD guy to begin with be because you're not totally and completely 'complete' with your husband in the first place?  And the BPD guy awoke something else (ALIVE!) inside of you and now you feel incomplete and somewhat dead or discouraged in its absence? 

Hi Phoebe, it's sometimes hard to decipher the way a person meant to write something so I will just ask:  when you wrote I apologize for not being able to connect with you here; I wish I could, but I just cannot. I'm not sure what you meant.  Is there something about my story that is annoying or triggering to you and you don't want to talk about it or did you mean that what you and others are saying isn't getting into my thick head?   

No, it's not that I don't feel complete with my husband. 

I think it's that I truly (besides my husband) have never had that one good friend (or at least not since high school which was a long time ago.  I have friends but not ones that are interested in what I am.  Along comes BPD!  And at first, for many, many months we were just friends.  And not only that, he was interested in what I was!  Music!  The same books!  Poetry!  Philosophy!  I think that was the draw and yes of course I miss that now.  Not him.  Not at all.  But having that friend that 'gets' you.  And to be honest, he also thought I was beautiful and amazing and kind and it all went to my head.

My therapist said once that she thinks I was trying to heal prior trauma through him.

Sheep, something else occurred to me: are you afraid of having people forgive you? Because as long as they don't forgive you, you don't have to forgive you either... . You seem to be using the assumption of their rejection as a device to punish yourself?

Hi arabella, no I am not on any medication.  I think I am/was close to depression.  But I feel mine has to do with a whole bunch of stuff that pills won't fix and that I need to dig really hard within me and work really hard and change my thought process.

As far as forgiveness:  I think that I believe that once I mess up, no one will love me anymore.  That I can't mess up and have someone still care about me.

I'm going to defend your husband here, because you are doing something completely unfair to him.

You have no right to say what he should do or will want to do.

The question of whether he wants to stay married to you is for him alone to answer.

I'm a little touchy about that myself, because my wife (when she was having BPD episodes) would sometimes say things like that about how I should leave her, etc. And I know that she had no business telling me what was supposed to be in my mind or what was in my mind.

I don't know him, so I don't know what he'll do. My guess is that he loves you, wants to stay with you, and will forgive you.

 GK

You are so right, GK and I will try not to say things like that again.  It just came from a place of extreme fear.  But you're right - not fair to him.

I spoke to a priest and also had therapy this week and though neither told me what to do, they both leaned toward and advised me more or less not to tell my husband.  I flat out said to the priest, "But that is lying!"  And he said that they were told to look at these things: 

-is the person truly remorseful and crushed and realizes that they did something extremely wrong (he said it was obvious)

-is the affair over with and not going to ever happen again (yes)

-will it destroy the other person?

He said that is what they look at.  Especially the last one.  He said if you really love your spouse and want to stay with them and realize that this was a huge mistake and that you did such wrong, but that it's over, is it worth it to destroy or hurt another person?

My therapist said the same - that it was up to me but that she agreed with the priest.  That it would never have happened if he wasn't BPD and I wasn't a mess and that she believes it will never happen again.

So, I am mulling.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Sheepdog, 

I'm going to share a personal story with you.  I was separated from my ex-wife and had a one night stand with a woman and we were sexual.  I felt a lot of guilt over this.  I am recovering alcoholic and I shared this with my recovery sponsor at the time and he advised that I do not tell my then wife.  I went against his recommendation and told her and she divorced me.  If your priest and therapist both gave you that advice, I would follow it.  You can always opt to tell him later on down the line when you are in a better place... . or never tell him.  Ask yourself this as well?  Do you want to tell to aleive your own guilt?  Be honest.  If this is the main reason, like it was for me, don't do it.  This is your mistake, not your husband's.  Your absolution comes from God and from forgiving yourself.

Phoenix.Rising

[sheepdog]

Sheepdog, 

I'm going to share a personal story with you.  I was separated from my ex-wife and had a one night stand with a woman and we were sexual.  I felt a lot of guilt over this.  I am recovering alcoholic and I shared this with my recovery sponsor at the time and he advised that I do not tell my then wife.  I went against his recommendation and told her and she divorced me.  If your priest and therapist both gave you that advice, I would follow it.  You can always opt to tell him later on down the line when you are in a better place... . or never tell him.  Ask yourself this as well?  Do you want to tell to aleive your own guilt?  Be honest.  If this is the main reason, like it was for me, don't do it.  This is your mistake, not your husband's.  Your absolution comes from God and from forgiving yourself.

Phoenix.Rising

Thank you so much for sharing your story.  It has given me a lot to think about.

Part of it comes from I don't like looking/feeling like a fool.  We have only run into BPD once, way back last September.  Thank goodness.  But if we ever did run into him, I know he would be smirking at my husband and thinking, "You have no idea what I did with your wife."  Hard to explain, but maybe not to make me feel better, but to tell him because then he wouldn't be... . I don't even know where I'm going with this or how to write it but it makes sense in my mind.

I'd like to think the reason I debate telling him is because I want a clean slate, want him to know the truth about me, let him make his own decision, as your ex did. 

But I can see both sides.

Thank you.

[P.F.Change]

I'm glad you were able to follow through on your goal of talking with a priest. Very brave!  Looking back on your fears about doing it, how many of them were accurate? Was the priest angry with you, mean to you, or did he tell you you're going to hell? Is he scowling at you when he sees you now?

There are definitely pros and cons to telling your DH or not and when. I think a lot depends on his personality and yours. If your spiritual guide and your psychological guide are both saying it might be better to wait a bit if you tell him at all, that advice is definitely worth considering.

There is something I have been curious about. If you want to answer, you can. What is your emotional relationship like with your DH? Does he know you have been feeling depressed or any of the other feelings you have been working through in T? How much do you share with him about your inner world--your thoughts, feelings, fears, dreams?

PF

[arabella]

Part of it comes from I don't like looking/feeling like a fool.  We have only run into BPD once, way back last September.  Thank goodness.  But if we ever did run into him, I know he would be smirking at my husband and thinking, "You have no idea what I did with your wife."  Hard to explain, but maybe not to make me feel better, but to tell him because then he wouldn't be... . I don't even know where I'm going with this or how to write it but it makes sense in my mind.

I'd like to think the reason I debate telling him is because I want a clean slate, want him to know the truth about me, let him make his own decision, as your ex did. 

But I can see both sides.

I'm only going to chime in to say that I am on that 'other side'. I know exactly what you are saying, sheepdog. I wanted to know. I wanted the clean slate, without a secret hanging between us that I didn't even know about. Because the truth is that I did know. At least, I knew something was 'off' and I was constantly worrying that it was me. Once I had the truth I could work with that and move on. I know my H was afraid I'd leave, but I think I deserved to make that decision based on reality - not some edited history that was designed to 'protect' me. My H trusted me with the truth and that meant a LOT to me because, to me, the lies were the worst part of the entire thing. If he'd continued lying, by omission, and I ever found out, I think that would have been the end for me. I'd have felt like I'd been 'suckered' twice. That's just me though (and I think H knew I'd feel that way). We came out stronger for having worked through it together.

I agree with P.F.Change though - it very much depends on the personalities involved. Consider what you can live with and what will cause further regret. Consider too what kind of person your H is. It's a tough decision - take your time! 

[MaybeSo]

Reasons to tell about an affair:

You are pretty sure or suspect he will eventually find out anyway through some other channel.

You have to come clean so a partner can take steps to protect themselves from a sexually transmitted disease.

The affair isn't over yet or you feel drawn to repeat the behavior with the same person or others, eg., this is a chronic issue.

You want to save the marriage and know your partner is the kind of resilient person that can work through something like this given time.

Other people were involved (other spouses or children) who may be at risk if they remain ignorant about the affair.

To maintain or sustain intimacy (intimacy is about knowing a person fully, not just the parts we want to see).

Reasons not to tell about an affair:

To off- load our bad feelings (guilt, anxiety, shame) onto someone else.

To hurt someone or create drama or jealousy.

You want to save the marriage and you know that your partner is the kind of person (based on real experience, not just your own fear/guilt talking) that will torture themselves or you with this information forever, eg., your partner has NO resilience to this kind of injury.

But if we ever did run into him, I know he would be smirking at my husband and thinking, "You have no idea what I did with your wife."

You have know way of really knowing what another person thinks... . and certainly you cannot predict someone's thoughts into the future! Don't get your stuff tangled up with this guy's stuff. You care about this and feel awful about this... . this guy may not give it much thought at all.  We can get into a lot of crappy projection with this line of thinking and it can end up being a means of self torture.

Are you concerned that your husband may find out about this through the guy or some other channel? 

Or are you reasonably sure that if you never tell your husband,  he will never ever know about this.

 

[Phoenix.Rising]

sheepdog,

I'd like to add that I don't think it's wrong to confess to a spouse.  I like MaybeSo's response.  In my case, I was not emotionally well when I told my now ex-wife.  I was trying to assuage some of my guilt by dumping it on her.  Hypothetically, which I really don't like to even mention... . if I did not tell her, I suppose I probably would have later on down the line when I was in a better place (or maybe not).  I just can't say.  Obviously, I was not meant to be with her.

I think my main point was that forgiveness and relief of your own guilt must ultimately come from inside you and from God.  If you tell him and he instantly forgives you and you have not found peace within yourself, you will still be miserable.  It sounds like you believe in God, so keep praying about it.  Good luck.

Phoenix.Rising 

[sheepdog]

I'm glad you were able to follow through on your goal of talking with a priest. Very brave!  Looking back on your fears about doing it, how many of them were accurate? Was the priest angry with you, mean to you, or did he tell you you're going to hell? Is he scowling at you when he sees you now?

There are definitely pros and cons to telling your DH or not and when. I think a lot depends on his personality and yours. If your spiritual guide and your psychological guide are both saying it might be better to wait a bit if you tell him at all, that advice is definitely worth considering.

There is something I have been curious about. If you want to answer, you can. What is your emotional relationship like with your DH? Does he know you have been feeling depressed or any of the other feelings you have been working through in T? How much do you share with him about your inner world--your thoughts, feelings, fears, dreams?

PF

PF - no, he was none of those things.  He was so kind to me.  I was an absolute wreck, probably used about 40 of his tissues and he was so kind.  He also picked up on many aspects of myself:  he said I had a lot of negative self-talk, that I have difficulty with boundaries, that I seem to have an immature view on spirituality.  He gave me a lot to think about.

This past week, we were home with family and my mother-in-law mentioned someone had cheated on their wife and how that is a deal-breaker for her.  She said she would never be able to trust them again and would always wonder what they were doing.  My husband agreed. 

I look back on myself now... . I don't know how I got to that place and I need to figure that out. 

And I need to believe everything the priest told me.

I am very close emotionally with my husband.  Besides the affair, he knows everything.  I tell him almost everything my therapist and I talk about.  I trust him.  I can share things with him and he is always loving and kind and understanding.  I know anything I tell him will not be laughed at or belittled or sluffed off.

Why do you ask?

Part of it comes from I don't like looking/feeling like a fool.  We have only run into BPD once, way back last September.  Thank goodness.  But if we ever did run into him, I know he would be smirking at my husband and thinking, "You have no idea what I did with your wife."  Hard to explain, but maybe not to make me feel better, but to tell him because then he wouldn't be... . I don't even know where I'm going with this or how to write it but it makes sense in my mind.

I'd like to think the reason I debate telling him is because I want a clean slate, want him to know the truth about me, let him make his own decision, as your ex did. 

But I can see both sides.

I'm only going to chime in to say that I am on that 'other side'. I know exactly what you are saying, sheepdog. I wanted to know. I wanted the clean slate, without a secret hanging between us that I didn't even know about. Because the truth is that I did know. At least, I knew something was 'off' and I was constantly worrying that it was me. Once I had the truth I could work with that and move on. I know my H was afraid I'd leave, but I think I deserved to make that decision based on reality - not some edited history that was designed to 'protect' me. My H trusted me with the truth and that meant a LOT to me because, to me, the lies were the worst part of the entire thing. If he'd continued lying, by omission, and I ever found out, I think that would have been the end for me. I'd have felt like I'd been 'suckered' twice. That's just me though (and I think H knew I'd feel that way). We came out stronger for having worked through it together.

I agree with P.F.Change though - it very much depends on the personalities involved. Consider what you can live with and what will cause further regret. Consider too what kind of person your H is. It's a tough decision - take your time! 

Thanks arabella.  I know exactly what you are saying.  As I told PF above, I know how my husband feels about cheating.  I felt/feel the same way when we would talk about it.  I've often wondered if he suspects anything as after my relationship with BPD collapsed, I was spinning pretty crazily and began therapy.  But then on the other hand, he may not suspect anything because... . and this is the part that just kills me... . he trusts me.  Completely.   :'(

Reasons to tell about an affair:

You are pretty sure or suspect he will eventually find out anyway through some other channel.

You have to come clean so a partner can take steps to protect themselves from a sexually transmitted disease.

The affair isn't over yet or you feel drawn to repeat the behavior with the same person or others, eg., this is a chronic issue.

You want to save the marriage and know your partner is the kind of resilient person that can work through something like this given time.

Other people were involved (other spouses or children) who may be at risk if they remain ignorant about the affair.

To maintain or sustain intimacy (intimacy is about knowing a person fully, not just the parts we want to see).

Reasons not to tell about an affair:

To off- load our bad feelings (guilt, anxiety, shame) onto someone else.

To hurt someone or create drama or jealousy.

You want to save the marriage and you know that your partner is the kind of person (based on real experience, not just your own fear/guilt talking) that will torture themselves or you with this information forever, eg., your partner has NO resilience to this kind of injury.

But if we ever did run into him, I know he would be smirking at my husband and thinking, "You have no idea what I did with your wife."

You have know way of really knowing what another person thinks... . and certainly you cannot predict someone's thoughts into the future! Don't get your stuff tangled up with this guy's stuff. You care about this and feel awful about this... . this guy may not give it much thought at all.  We can get into a lot of crappy projection with this line of thinking and it can end up being a means of self torture.

Are you concerned that your husband may find out about this through the guy or some other channel? 

Or are you reasonably sure that if you never tell your husband,  he will never ever know about this.

 

MaybeSo, you said:  Don't get your stuff tangled up with this guy's stuff.  That really struck me.  I think I do/did that a lot.  He probably is not giving it any thought at all as it has been almost a year since we spoke.  But I do get soo upset when I think of that photo my husband and I gave him as a house-warming gift and him looking at it and smirking.  Again, getting my stuff tangled up.

I am absolutely concerned.  If he did not have that email it may be different but yes I am concerned.  I think BPD bordered on being a sociopath so that not knowing what he is going to do... . it really gets to me.  It was the same when we were together and he knew that.

sheepdog,

I'd like to add that I don't think it's wrong to confess to a spouse.  I like MaybeSo's response.  In my case, I was not emotionally well when I told my now ex-wife.  I was trying to assuage some of my guilt by dumping it on her.  Hypothetically, which I really don't like to even mention... . if I did not tell her, I suppose I probably would have later on down the line when I was in a better place (or maybe not).  I just can't say.  Obviously, I was not meant to be with her.

I think my main point was that forgiveness and relief of your own guilt must ultimately come from inside you and from God.  If you tell him and he instantly forgives you and you have not found peace within yourself, you will still be miserable.  It sounds like you believe in God, so keep praying about it.  Good luck.

Phoenix.Rising 

Thanks so much for the kind words, PhoenixRising.  May I ask what you meant by, "Obviously, I was not meant to be with her."?

I am trying to pray to God about it and trying to remember what the priest said about how I believe in God and how flawed that is but it is hard to undo decades of belief.  I am trying.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Hi Sheepdog,

All I meant was that I try to live by a saying along the lines of "nothing happens in God's world by mistake".  This helps keep me out of living in "should haves", "could haves", and "would haves".  Ex. If I had not told my wife, she would not have divorced me.  This was not the reality for me.  The reality is I told her and we are divorced. 

I try to believe there is a reason we are not together, or we would be together, make sense?  Yes, my choices and actions do have consequences, but I have more control than I sometimes allow myself to realize.  I try to stay focused on the present, and accept that "everything is exactly the way it is supposed to be".  Acceptance of what is frees me from negative projection or living in the past. 

Have you ever tried practicing mindfulness?

Practicing mindfulness--how do you do it?

Take care.

Phoenix.Rising

[sheepdog]

Hi Phoenix.Rising,

Thanks for clarifying.  Do you equate what you said - "nothing happens in God's world by mistake" to kind of like destiny?  Or that what is supposed to happen, happens?

Bouncing off of what you said, but applying it to my situation... . you said, "I try to believe there is a reason we are not together, or we would be."  I guess I am just thinking of how all of that works.  I start getting caught up in all the rest like, - do you think that if you would not have cheated, that you would still be together?

And in my case, by not telling my husband yet, am I controlling the 'nothing happens in God's world by mistake?'

Note - none of this is directed at YOU... . I'm just working through stuff.

Anyway, thanks!

[slimmiller]

Hi Phoenix.Rising,

And in my case, by not telling my husband yet, am I controlling the 'nothing happens in God's world by mistake?'

Another way to look at it is maybe you are helping God by not allowing what would happen if you did tell... . While God may be in ultimate control, we could view him as merely the judge so to speak and if irrelavent evidence is not submitted it does not need to be considered in the sentencing. After all what took place in your past is not something you did on purpose or willingly or maliciously.

I do not know your full story but have seen much of it. I do not know how you feel but just a very brief overview of what happened in my relationship with my exBPD... .

I had dated one of her step sisters briefly before I even met her and I thought it was all common knowledge with the family and didnt know all the dynamics within the family. They all lied and all of them are various BPDs with various traits. If you want a textbook of crazy they fit it. Not wanting to get into it too deep. We started to date and she even said 'I know you and (she named the person) dated but our relationship is so deep and blah blah, it doesnt matter' we will overcome everthing. After a while she distorted it to I know you guys were just friends to I know you didnt date. All the while I just let things go and left it alone, it was history and irrelevant. Well my mistake was to tell her one day more then she needed to ever know, partially because i was afraid if i didnt clarify (FOG) someone else would. So I told her and clarified everything and more then I needed to because people in love help each other right... . ?   In the normal sense yes but not her.  We did overcome as we were still in the honeymoon phase and she begged me to marry her. That would make everything even better. Then I took over her screwed up finances and got her out of debt which she had from the irresponsible ex husband


Well you guessed it. Years later when there was nothing else to disregulate about that whole thing came back up as to why she just cant live with it anymore. The rest is pretty self explanitory with the fact that I am here. All her raging cheating and lying is all justified in her eyes. She will NEVER take responsibility for what she did. Its all my fault for something I did before I even met her. Classic BPD

My point is I was in a bad spot when I told her and I should have gotten a T and instead worked on why I even neeeded to tell her. Truth is, its none of her business what i did before I met her but that dont matter. I gaurentee if I had not told her she wouldnt know (some of the things) and she would have another excuse as to why she triangulated lied and cheated.


Would I advise one to tell when they are in fear like that? I think when we are in fear and in the FOG we have to take some time and think it through before we do anything. (Tell etc)  Its like impulse spending, it will alsways come back as a bad idea but if we think it over , sleep on it so to speak, we can make better decisions.

I m saying I understand the spot you are in to a degree. You are in fea

Sorry if Iam rambling too much. Be good to yu, You salready suffered mmuch!r and afraid what would happen if it was out in the open and you are afraid it will come out in the open if the other party becomes vengefull. BPDs love it when we are not on an even keel and in the FOG... Thats the only time they function somewaht 'normal' is when they can relegate us to the 'crazy' heap. It makes them look better.

So to tell or not to tell, I do not have the answer to that. Knowing what I know now I would not have told because it was more about me forgiving me then her forgiving me. In a sense when the other party does not know, they are not offended. This is NOT the right mindset to repeat an offense but when its over and done with and we have no desire to repeat the offense I think it is okay. We have learned our lesson and that part of our life is gone.

If we are walking through a creek and making mud under the water its behind us. We should not drag it back to to us and if another was besides us when we made the mud and they were not effected by it, it was only us that was in the mud. If the water is now clear for both, its good if it can stay that way. While we fear the muddy water we have to try and think clearly

Sorry if I am rambling. Be good to you, you already suffered much

[slimmiller]

Argh... .

Trying to post on my phone. Forgive the silly repeats and phonetics

-slim

[Phoenix.Rising]

Hi Sheepdog,

Without getting too philosophical, I'll try to simplify what I was saying.  I believe we have free will, so we do have some control over how we shape our 'destiny'.  I do not understand God's plans, how he operates, what he wants or doesn't want, etc. and I am not supposed to.  That is way beyond me.

My actions generate reactions or consequences.  This really isn't either 'good' or 'bad' so to speak.  It just is.  For me the kicker is, What am I learning from my actions?  If I don't learn anything, I just repeat and stay stuck.  If I start to learn, I grow and move forward.  I must be willing, however, to change. 

You asked if I think I would still be with my ex-wife if I had not cheated on her... well, it doesn't matter because that is not the reality.  So I accept that we are not together.  What matters is that I recognize that's it's probably not a good idea to cheat on my wife.  It's also probably not a good idea for me to tell a significant other about an infidelity if my motives are not clear and clean.  So, again, if I learn this, I can change and hopefully have a better experience in the future.  If I don't learn anything, I will most likely repeat my behavior.  It doesn't mean I am a 'bad' person.  I am just a person, with faults, like you and everybody else!

The reason I said 'everything happens for a reason, is because I believe that'.  If I believe that, then there is no reason to get hung up on 'I should have' or 'I could have', etc.  What is the point in that?  That is not the reality.  So it is what it is supposed to be.  If I can accept that, then I have a good shot at moving forward.  I hope that helps.  You are moving forward whether you recognize it or not.  The outcome of your current situation is not really the issue here, in my opinion.  The issue is how can you accept your life as it is and be content and happy with Sheepdog?  Your Higher Power (God) accepts you just as you are.

Phoenix.Rising

[goldylamont]

sheepdog, i would think about the age old moral code of:

do unto others what you would have them do unto you.

so, if your husband had an emotional (and perhaps partially physical?) affair with a mentally unstable woman, would you want to know about it?

i think you may already know the answer to this, the trick is being able to recognize the truth of how you would feel before 'thinking' about it too much. perhaps applying this and asking yourself how you would like to be treated when the situations were reversed could give you some guidance. I would trust your gut instinct on it.

i am suggesting this so that you can step out of yourself for a moment. our own personal thoughts can conflict at times, which is normal, yet we have the ability to expand our awareness and look at our situation from an outside perspective. i think it could help.

[sheepdog]

Thanks so much, everyone!  You are really giving me a lot to think about! 

slimmiller said:  After all what took place in your past is not something you did on purpose or willingly or maliciously.

This is what my therapist keeps saying to me.  And it is the hardest point for her to get in my head.  Still is.  We were talking about sin and hardships and feeling close to God.  I said that many people don't *choose* to do what they do.  It was done to them.  And she said, "Sheep, this is still what you DON'T understand.  What happened with BPD was something that was done to YOU.  YOU had no choice."  And it kind of angered me because, as I told her - I DID have a choice.  I am an adult.  I could have stopped it sooner.  I knew it was wrong, etc., etc.  And she said, "No, you had no choice.  It was the perfect storm."

I do understand what she is saying to me but then the devil on my other shoulder will put in my mind an image of BPD and I and how we were kissing like crazy 30 seconds before my husband was to arrive in the door.  And I *knew* that but it was like I could not get enough of BPD.  I look at pics of him now and I have zero attraction for him, just as I didn't in the very beginning.  But I was there and in it and part of it and despite what my therapist says, the cause of it.

I understand this sentence:  "I have learned so much about myself from my relationship with BPD."  I *have.*  But why didn't I choose another way to learn it?  Why him?  Why an affair (sex or no sex)?  Why to the throwing in the garbage my morals and values - all I ever really knew in life?  That's what I'm grappling with.

My therapist once said that I was trying to heal myself through him (the BPD).  I think she meant stuff from childhood/possible sexual stuff.  But she never said anything more.  I asked but she said we needed to get other things straight first.

[C12P21]

But why didn't I choose another way to learn it?  Why him?  Why an affair (sex or no sex)?  Why to the throwing in the garbage my morals and values - all I ever really knew in life?  That's what I'm grappling with.

The only thing I can think of is perhaps it was a lesson you needed to learn? Although you might know who you are and what you believe in and value, the triggers of childhood issues are powerful. Powerful enough to that our behavior leaves us shocked at what is done.   

In time and with reflection, my hope is you will forgive yourself.

You made a mistake and are learning from that mistake, you are sad, shocked and feel incredible grief. Give yourself the gift of forgiveness.

Take care,

C

[goldylamont]

slimmiller said:  After all what took place in your past is not something you did on purpose or willingly or maliciously.

This is what my therapist keeps saying to me.  And it is the hardest point for her to get in my head.  Still is.  We were talking about sin and hardships and feeling close to God.  I said that many people don't *choose* to do what they do.  It was done to them.  And she said, "Sheep, this is still what you DON'T understand.  What happened with BPD was something that was done to YOU.  YOU had no choice."  And it kind of angered me because, as I told her - I DID have a choice.  I am an adult.  I could have stopped it sooner.  I knew it was wrong... .

I agree with you. Sheepdog I feel like you know yourself better than anyone else, your therapist, or those in the church, the weirdo with BPD or even your husband. You knew what you were doing was wrong. You were completely aware that you had a choice to do the "right" thing, and still you made the conscious choice to do something else.

In my case I don't feel like my r/s with my exBPD was so much a choice i made. I think i was just completely ignorant to mental illnesses of this kind. and i trusted my instincts and ended the r/s to protect myself. i felt anger, grief, tons of pain, even hate; but i'm not shameful of my behavior. Shame is an emotion that is there to tell us that we need to change our ways or change our situation. You are feeling shame about having an affair on your husband, and the shame is strong enough to continue through therapy from several sources. The thing is to find out what message this shame is trying to tell you--what needs to change in your life? What needs to change in you?

But why didn't I choose another way to learn it?  Why him?  Why an affair (sex or no sex)?  Why to the throwing in the garbage my morals and values - all I ever really knew in life?  That's what I'm grappling with.

perhaps the morals and values that you speak of are not your own? were these morals/values given to you from your parents or are they life lessons that you know to be true from your own experience, wisdom and understanding? even though it's all you feel you've known in life, it seems like another part of you is being ignored or repressed. i feel like you are pushing away a part of yourself to try to control it. but this never works. it just rears its ugly head as it did with the BPD if you try to repress it. there is a healthy way to be ok with whatever it is that sparked the affair that you had. the truth hurts but is healing. you may have a painful blister, and the truth will be the lance that will puncture the blister and let all the bad puss inside spill out. it may look gross and it will hurt to do it, but once the blister is open and the truth is out, then the skin will heal completely. i can feel that you are searching for your truth here. it sounds like you have many well meaning people around you to help, but i think you may have to realize this on your own. they keep telling you it wasn't your fault, but really, you know it was your fault. why? why was it your fault? and why did you do it? realize that you know the answer to this already and simply allow the answer to reveal itself to you.

[sheepdog]

But why didn't I choose another way to learn it?  Why him?  Why an affair (sex or no sex)?  Why to the throwing in the garbage my morals and values - all I ever really knew in life?  That's what I'm grappling with.

The only thing I can think of is perhaps it was a lesson you needed to learn? Although you might know who you are and what you believe in and value, the triggers of childhood issues are powerful. Powerful enough to that our behavior leaves us shocked at what is done.   

In time and with reflection, my hope is you will forgive yourself.

You made a mistake and are learning from that mistake, you are sad, shocked and feel incredible grief. Give yourself the gift of forgiveness.

Take care,

C

Thank you, C.  I just wish I knew what the childhood triggers were.  I appreciate your thoughts.

slimmiller said:  After all what took place in your past is not something you did on purpose or willingly or maliciously.

This is what my therapist keeps saying to me.  And it is the hardest point for her to get in my head.  Still is.  We were talking about sin and hardships and feeling close to God.  I said that many people don't *choose* to do what they do.  It was done to them.  And she said, "Sheep, this is still what you DON'T understand.  What happened with BPD was something that was done to YOU.  YOU had no choice."  And it kind of angered me because, as I told her - I DID have a choice.  I am an adult.  I could have stopped it sooner.  I knew it was wrong... . 

I agree with you. Sheepdog I feel like you know yourself better than anyone else, your therapist, or those in the church, the weirdo with BPD or even your husband. You knew what you were doing was wrong. You were completely aware that you had a choice to do the "right" thing, and still you made the conscious choice to do something else.

In my case I don't feel like my r/s with my exBPD was so much a choice i made. I think i was just completely ignorant to mental illnesses of this kind. and i trusted my instincts and ended the r/s to protect myself. i felt anger, grief, tons of pain, even hate; but i'm not shameful of my behavior. Shame is an emotion that is there to tell us that we need to change our ways or change our situation. You are feeling shame about having an affair on your husband, and the shame is strong enough to continue through therapy from several sources. The thing is to find out what message this shame is trying to tell you--what needs to change in your life? What needs to change in you?

But why didn't I choose another way to learn it?  Why him?  Why an affair (sex or no sex)?  Why to the throwing in the garbage my morals and values - all I ever really knew in life?  That's what I'm grappling with.

perhaps the morals and values that you speak of are not your own? were these morals/values given to you from your parents or are they life lessons that you know to be true from your own experience, wisdom and understanding? even though it's all you feel you've known in life, it seems like another part of you is being ignored or repressed. i feel like you are pushing away a part of yourself to try to control it. but this never works. it just rears its ugly head as it did with the BPD if you try to repress it. there is a healthy way to be ok with whatever it is that sparked the affair that you had. the truth hurts but is healing. you may have a painful blister, and the truth will be the lance that will puncture the blister and let all the bad puss inside spill out. it may look gross and it will hurt to do it, but once the blister is open and the truth is out, then the skin will heal completely. i can feel that you are searching for your truth here. it sounds like you have many well meaning people around you to help, but i think you may have to realize this on your own. they keep telling you it wasn't your fault, but really, you know it was your fault. why? why was it your fault? and why did you do it? realize that you know the answer to this already and simply allow the answer to reveal itself to you.

I don't know.  All I know is once my therapist said I was trying to heal old wounds.  I guess that is part of it.  My craptastic self-esteem and him wanting me/chasing me may have been part of it.

I don't know.  It was more than the affair.  The way that I tried in vain to be just his friend for over a year after we stopped being physical.

I am proud of myself sometimes that I just realized I had had enough.

I was unaware of this kind of mental issue as well and honestly, it still completely blows my mind.

[livednlearned]

I DID have a choice.  I am an adult.  I could have stopped it sooner.  I knew it was wrong... . 

I feel a lot of sadness reading that. I dunno why. All of us could say that. This is at the core of every story here. I feel so much shame about stuff I did during my marriage. My ex drank to excess one night, passed out, and defecated in bed. He must've tried to get up, but got disoriented, and stumbled around the room, smearing feces everywhere. On the curtains, the carpet, the bedspread, himself. I cleaned it up the next morning while he yelled at me, calling me a whore, telling me I was a b!tch, that I was too overly dramatic about everything. It took me 8 hours to clean everything. I don't know why I didn't just walk away that day. I had a choice. I am an adult. I could have stopped it sooner. I knew it was wrong.

My T said it's about repetition compulsion. This isn't about you being an adult who has a choice. You're missing the point. It's about being a child who has to emotionally reconcile what happened, whatever that was. Extreme shame tends to stunt us emotionally. Some part of you is desperate to grow. You weren't paying attention, and had to do this in order to get you to listen. It was the same for me.

"Repetition compulsion is a psychological phenomenon in which a person repeats a traumatic event or its circumstances over and over again. This includes reenacting the event or putting oneself in situations where the event is likely to happen again." Freud noted how "'the patient does not remember anything of what he has forgotten and repressed, he acts it out, without, of course, knowing that he is repeating it."

"... .a person actively engages in behavior that mimics an earlier stressor, either deliberately or unconsciously, so that in particular events that are terrifying in childhood become sources of attraction in adulthood. For instance, a person who was spanked as a child may incorporate this into their adult sexual practices; or a victim of sexual abuse may attempt to seduce another person of authority in his or her life (such as their boss or therapist): an attempt at mastery of their feelings and experience, in the sense that they unconsciously want to go through the same situation but that it not result negatively as it did in the past."