Part 3: Setting boundaries: is this too much?

[Our abuse recovery guide]

FormFlier, I'm sure you're right about everything. Maybe someday I'll come back and read your thoughts again but for now I'm overwhelmed to the point of panic. I did this to myself, I opened up and asked for it. Thank you for the time and energy you put into responding.

pj

[pursuingJoy]

FormFlier, I'm sure you're right about everything. Maybe someday I'll come back and read your thoughts again but for now I'm overwhelmed to the point of panic. I did this to myself, I opened up and asked for it. Thank you for the time and energy you put into responding.

pj

[Skip]

Wow, this is an intense and broad thread. Lots of good ideas and discussion of communication tatics.  A lot of openness and vulnerability.

This is all still very overwhelming. I read an article yesterday entitled, "Trauma is not your fault but healing is your responsibility." I'm resentful that I'm taking responsibility for someone else's trauma, and that my marriage's survival is dependent on me taking on a new mindset. If I dropped everything today, hubby and his mom would continue exactly as they have without regard for their impact on me.

Shifting a bit away from the tactics - as I read through the thread it sounds like there are some value conflicts between you and hubby and it sounds like they have been going on for some time. I read where you are often anticipating his reaction - because you have been through the conflict before and you know how it is likely to play out. He is probably doing the same.

Not only are your values are being trampled, it feels like no one is listening.

I don't want to dump on your husband. Sounds like he is trying to "serve three masters" with sincere intent. He is sacrificing himself to do this (admirable) but maybe not aware that he is sacrificing you in the process. This is probably not at all obvious to him and he may see his role as the central figure and the administrator and compromiser. This surely makes sense to him, its his beloved mom, and his beloved children and his co-parenting mess, and his beloved wife.

I hear your value system (if I'm hearing correctly) as this should be about you and your husband working together as equal partners to decide together how to solve, service, and compromise to balance a blended family, co-parenting, and aging parents.  These are real life problems that most couples face at some point. Your values are valid. There are many good marriages built on this foundation to which your ascribe.

I hear you saying your husbands value system (if I'm hearing correctly) is about being the leader and humble servant and taking on these competing challenges and do his best to serve them all.  Men are often biased to think this way - he has an upbringing that groomed him to be this way. His values are valid, too, but not the same.  He won't be  the first guy that cast himself as the central figure.

I don't want to load you up with more tools   . I'm only offering one possible perspective on all the things that have been said. Sometimes we ( bpdfamily) get the tools (hammer and screwdrivers) discussions ahead of the intent discussion (building a safe and happy home).

These not uncommon problems you face. You are not necessarily losing your husband. It certainly could threaten your marriage if you two don't get on the same page. That said, aligning or re-aligning values is probably more of a rock concert than a piano player in a bar. It's a hard conversation, requires focus and commitment, and the most important thing is to keep it as constructive as possible. You want to try not to trigger the underlying resentments and or erect the habitual roadblocks that you both are prone to do.

[pursuingJoy]

Skip,
I've read your post several times. The downside of feeling completely raw is that I reach my saturation point quickly, and I'm apparently incapable (here and everywhere else) of communicating that to others.

I didn't used to be this way. When I met my husband I'd been through years of therapy and processing my own family dynamics. I was happy, felt well adjusted, strong, set boundaries comfortably. (Example: the second time she visited, I said I was going to pick up my kids from daycare, she announced, "good, I'll get my coat, you can take me shopping while you're at it." I took her, but later I calmly told her that I did not appreciate being told what to do and would prefer that she simply ask. I dropped it and felt good about it.

Year after year, situation after situation, my confidence eroded. I'm this strange, frightened, wishy-washy creature I don't even recognize. Meanwhile, the conflict between my husband and I just kept getting worse. I (and our marriage) was ripe for the picking when she "poked" at me four months ago.

I knew recovery takes a lifetime (I've told him many times that what's broken in me understands/is attracted to what's broken in him, and vice versa) but I never dreamed I'd be back in what feels like an emotionally abused position. I'm sure it's my own brokenness coming back to haunt me. Obviously, if I'd been stronger, things never would have gotten this bad. I think it also speaks to the insidious nature of BPD.

I don't want to dump on your husband. Sounds like he is trying to "serve three masters" with sincere intent. He is sacrificing himself to do this (admirable) but maybe not aware that he is sacrificing you in the process. This is probably not at all obvious to him and he may see his role as the central figure and the administrator and compromiser. This surely makes sense to him, its his beloved mom, and his beloved children and his co-parenting mess, and his beloved wife.

I hear your value system (if I'm hearing correctly) as this should be about you and your husband working together as equal partners to decide together how to solve, service, and compromise to balance a blended family, co-parenting, and aging parents.  These are real life problems that most couples face at some point. Your values are valid. There are many good marriages built on this foundation to which your ascribe.

I hear you saying your husbands value system (if I'm hearing correctly) is about being the leader and humble servant and taking on these competing challenges and do his best to serve them all.  Men are often biased to think this way - he has an upbringing that groomed him to be this way. His values are valid, too, but not the same.  He won't be  the first guy that cast himself as the central figure.

Fair. This is helpful and maybe I can borrow some of this phrasing to approach the conversation in a way that feels less threatening to him. Do you think it's realistic and fair to say that no matter how considerate or kind I am, he may still perceive conversations regarding his mom as threatening? I have some power to influence the dynamic, but some of this is out of my control. Just because he gets defensive doesn't necessarily mean it's all my fault, correct?

I don't want to load you up with more tools   . I'm only offering one possible perspective on all the things that have been said. Sometimes we ( bpdfamily) get the tools (hammer and screwdrivers) discussions ahead of the intent discussion (building a safe and happy home).

You all are the experts. It's so hard to tell you to slow down when I feel overwhelmed. When I do feel like I'm sharing that it's overwhelming, and the opinions and tools keep coming, I feel shoved back into a dynamic where not only am I powerless, I am The Problem, so clearly dysfunctional and beyond hope. Obviously an emotional overreaction on my part but it's where I am. For my part, I'm sorry.

These not uncommon problems you face. You are not necessarily losing your husband. It certainly could threaten your marriage if you two don't get on the same page. That said, aligning or re-aligning values is probably more of a rock concert than a piano player in a bar. It's a hard conversation, requires focus and commitment, and the most important thing is to keep it as constructive as possible. You want to try not to trigger the underlying resentments and or erect the habitual roadblocks that you both are prone to do.

Thanks for that analogy. My desire is to be constructive and learn a different way of doing things. At the moment I feel paralyzed for fear of being condescending or mothering.

I'm logically aware that I'm playing the victim, but I also don't trust myself at all (and based on feedback I've received here) I can't trust myself. If I open my mouth too much will come out. I don't share anything with my husband.

Has my marriage failed completely? We're still living together. We exist in the same space. As long as I'm fake, he's relatively happy. We went from what we both believed was a trusting, honest till it hurts, work through issues, mutually respectful relationship to what we have now, in four months, over a fight with his mom. That's a lot for me to deal with.

I appreciate your thoughts Skip. Thanks for reaching out.

pj

[Skip]

On  bpdfamily: We all came here broken and raw. And our healing and recovery was sloppy. Just read take a peak at the history of people in your thread. "Skippy" (my member name) was a whipped puppy who instincts just made matters worse for the things I was trying to resolve. My EQ was impressively low.  

The formula here is that more experienced members help mentor the new members... and as new members grow, they reach back and help the next class of newbies.

In terms of being mentored - cultivate relationships with those in your space and cultivate some that are more advanced that communicate well with you. As you get more settled, you can reach out to even more challenging mentors. Stay in your comfort zone. I remember my early days here, things went well, I was making progress, and a member with 12,000 posts came in and leveled me. I look back and 1) she was right on the money, and 2) she is the very caring person - but it was more than I could handle at the time - I took a day off (or maybe it was a week). She and I are friends to this day.

In terms of mentoring/helping others - don't wait, jump in and help others. They will appreciate it, and you will also get a lot from it. It's easy to analyze or comment when we are not the one who is emotionally flooded. For example, you have good basic understanding of both Karpman triangle and boundaries - there are many who could benefit from the insight you have. Test your skills on others. One interesting thing about helping others, is a day or two later you will find yourself saying - hey I do that too - should I be taking my own advice?  I just had one of those inspiring moments yesterday.

Do it all at a pace that works for you. Find that balance of being comforted and being challenged. Of hugers and challengers.

Its a social laboratory here - experiment. And know that people care and will accept you fr who you are.

[pursuingJoy]

In terms of being mentored - cultivate relationships with those in your space and cultivate some that are more advanced that communicate well with you. As you get more settled, you can reach out to even more challenging mentors. Stay in your comfort zone. I remember my early days here, things went well, I was making progress, and a member with 12,000 posts came in and leveled me. I look back and 1) she was right on the money, and 2) she is the very caring person - but it was more than I could handle at the time - I took a day off (or maybe it was a week). She and I are friends to this day.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. It's not that I don't appreciate the wisdom, I promise. I'm in a soup of emotion I'm trying to manage and I can't absorb the critique and tools as fast as you want me to.

I also have to be mindful about my triggers, not to lump voices together. My dad raised me saying every day that women should be submissive. I believe women are equal in value, not more, not less. I've worked hard to develop confidence and assert myself, to share my feelings and ask for what I need, and also not disrespect.

When men <whom I've granted respect to> say I'm condescending when I talk to my husband about boundaries (bidden or not), I hear my feelings don't matter, I have nothing to offer, I'm just screwing up. I have to do some conscious work to separate their voices from my dad's. I'm really at that very elementary level of absorption.

In terms of mentoring/helping others - don't wait, jump in and help others. They will appreciate it, and you will also get a lot from it.

Thank you for this. I don't have answers like some of you but I enjoy encouraging.

Do it all at a pace that works for you. Find that balance of being comforted and being challenged. Of hugers and challengers.

If y'all will be patient with me, I promise I'll catch up.

Its a social laboratory here - experiment. And know that people care and will accept you fr who you are.

Thanks for saying this. People show care in different ways.

pj

[pursuingJoy]

I wanted to update y'all on a positive note. Last night and in a session this morning with the MC, we were able to have a different kind of conversation. I knew from what y'all said that it would be counterproductive to argue or dwell on the hurt (that I still feel). I just listened, then I tried to share my perspective without countering his.

Note: I'm abbreviating to highlight the differences in our perspectives. More was said around these topics. Yes, these are words that were actually used.

Him:
1. Our marriage is rock solid. The only problem was the conflict between you and my mom.
2. This whole time I thought you wanted to work it out with her, so I've been reassuring her for months that everything was going to be fine, that you'd come around, you just needed time.
3. I'll stop reassuring her. I am extremely frustrated that you lied that you wanted to work things out. You put me in the middle.
4. Now that I know you don't care about her, I'm actually relieved. I don't have to reassure her anymore.

Me:
1. Conflict with your mom is what started this, but repairing my relationship with your mom is not on my radar right now. My concern is and has always been about our marriage.
2. I learned recently about this thing called a Karpman Triangle, and I've played every role, which made things worse. It helped me be more mindful and gave me steps I can use to take myself out of the middle, even when others are trying to put me there. (This interested him, he wants to know more.)
3. I care about your mom because I care about you. I don't see relationships as black and white, they're fluid and can change. Talking to her is not a priority for me right now, my concern is our marriage.

With the help of the MC, we planned every moment of a visit to his mom (for our youngest's birthday) on Saturday. MC emphasized that this should feel like our family outing that she is invited to join. This is another brand new step as he is accustomed to planning with her and inviting me to join where I can.

He seemed frustrated and scared. This is new territory.

I'm so thankful for an amazing MC, and for you all. Thanks for listening. My anxiety over this Saturday is still there but I think I can do it. Wish us luck.I'll keep you posted.

pj

[Skip]

Proud of you for taking the high ground/being constructive and staying focused on the goal.

I wouldn't take his lashing out too too personally. He kinda painted himself in a corner and that would frustrate anyone.

Some of his comments were of retreat / withdrawal. Its a dysfunctional defense mechanism (not an aggression). My first instinct is to do that. Many of us do. I would be aware of this - you may have to coax him out a bit to bring him to the bargaining table.

[Spindle0516]

My anxiety over this Saturday is still there but I think I can do it. Wish us luck.I'll keep you posted.
pj

Pursing Joy- it sounds like you handled your session with the MC and your husband like a champ! 

I hope everything goes well Saturday. Will be thinking about you.

[GaGrl]

Awesome progress! It sounds as if the focus is successfully shifting to your marriage. He probably needs some time to adjust to this -- he may take two of three steps forward and one back. That's to be expected.

I love that the MC is supporting the shift by clarifying that the two of you make the plans and then invite her to join. Yes! This keeps the focus and activity on you two as a couple, a team, the priority -- MIL drops in priority.

It will be interesting to see how this Saturday goes.  This will be an interesting follow-up with the MC. Does MIL object to the plans? How does H respond?

You are on a good path!

[pursuingJoy]

Some of his comments were of retreat / withdrawal. Its a dysfunctional defense mechanism (not an aggression). My first instinct is to do that. Many of us do. I would be aware of this - you may have to coax him out a bit to bring him to the bargaining table.

Very wise. Thank you!

I hope everything goes well Saturday. Will be thinking about you.

Thanks Spindle! Can't tell you what it means to hear your stories. I feel stronger because we can find support in each other.

I love that the MC is supporting the shift by clarifying that the two of you make the plans and then invite her to join. Yes! This keeps the focus and activity on you two as a couple, a team, the priority -- MIL drops in priority.

It will be interesting to see how this Saturday goes.  This will be an interesting follow-up with the MC. Does MIL object to the plans? How does H respond?

Thanks for the encouragement GaGrl! I was thinking about you when I posted this.

A realistic step-back scenario I've considered is that his MIL will ask him to come back to her house for (insert task here). He told the MC he would schedule another time to go visit her alone and help with her house, it's not part of our plan, we're running on a tight schedule...but he's unaccustomed to saying no to her. I'm anticipating so I don't get upset. Like you said, that's the sort of thing we can check in with the MC about after.

Thanks all. 
pj 

[pursuingJoy]

Let the games begin. He called his mom to let her know about plans to meet at a restaurant 20 minutes from her. According to him, "She wasnt disappointed, per se, but she's too tired to drive tomorrow so I told her we could pick her up and drop her off."

I also suspect he has moved our departure time up an hour.

Things are feeling squishy.

[I Am Redeemed]

It's not that I don't appreciate the wisdom, I promise. I'm in a soup of emotion I'm trying to manage and I can't absorb the critique and tools as fast as you want me to.

No pressure, PJ. We may offer lots of information sometimes and everyone has an individual pace. No one expects you to absorb all of this on our timeframe. We may put things out there to see what you can absorb, but you determine the pace, we do not.

You have a very high level of self-awareness. That is good. You can recognize your triggers, and even if you do get emotionally flooded you are able to step back after a while and identify what triggered you and why. That is great insight, and it is not easy to do.

You also keep coming back, even if someone inadvertently triggers you on the board, and that speaks to your character and your determination to look situations in the eyes and not back down. You are dedicated to self-improvement and improving relationships, and it shows 

[GaGrl]

Well, wait until you get through this, then you can choose the top 2-3 things that violated your agreement in front of the MC -- and that's where you pick up for next session.

Now, if she's already too tired to drive -- 24 hours before the event-- as you are now picking her up and delivering her, will she have a list of tasks to be done when you drop her off? Seems like it should be clear that H needs to get everyone home and set up another time. Hmmm...Will be do that, or leave you and miss to twiddle your thumbs while he completes the list?

[pursuingJoy]

We may put things out there to see what you can absorb, but you determine the pace, we do not.

You are dedicated to self-improvement and improving relationships, and it shows  

I Am Redeemed, thank you. I was triggered inadvertently by caring people, which is humbling. You've also made me feel respected, cared for, and trusted. Thank you ALL.

Yesterday went well, as well as it possibly could have. I went in feeling prepared, so little would have surprised me. MIL was aloof and polite, occasionally slipping into 'waif' mode (wringing her hands often, staring at me for long periods of time, following me or my husband, and stumbling if she thought anyone was watching), then going back to aloof. I worked for happy/distracted, delivering equal attention to all but mostly focus on the birthday girl.

I noticed husband would occasionally bring MIL to the forefront (retelling a joke she told if it didn't get the laughs it merited, etc) but all in all the dynamic functioned for all. She wasnt happy, but she didn't blow up. She may later.

Things to talk about in MC:

1. Her need to pick her up when that wasn't the plan. Not a big hairy deal, just want to mention to raise awareness.

2. She invited us out to eat, and in the past it has always been 'her treat.' You know where this is going . This time when the waitress asked about the check she shrunk back. (Thankfully I was prepared for that, as she gives when she's happy, withholds when she's mad.) After an awkward second hubby grabbed the check and MIL looked straight at me. I smiled and reassured her we were happy to cover it. She then said weakly, "well, I could cover the birthday girl." Honestly it made me laugh. I knew it was coming.  I was fine with paying, I feel fat more comfortable with paying than accepting a gift with obligations.

What I want to talk to him about is what's behind her gifts. Any advice on how/whether to approach this?

3. Probably won't mention this in MC, just to you: when we dropped his mom off, we all went in to say goodbye and he walked around the house looking for things to do. He kept repeating "do you need me to do anything, mom? Any repairs? How about this, want me to put it in your car? I can take a look at that if you want? Anything?" She asked for a few things but I stayed near the door with my coat on, keys in hand, politely engaging with kids and her but also clearly signaling that i wasn't getting comfy. She asked him to look at her pilot light and an air filter, which he jumped at with gusto.  She finally said, "no son, I'm good, no thank you, no"...he kept asking.

I won't say anything because I know he feels good when he rescues, and habits are hard to break. And because I'd sound like a total brat if I said anything.

4. What troubles me most is a conversation I had with him 5 minutes ago. Several days ago he borrowed a car from his friend, he told me it was because he didn't want to take his truck on the two hr trip to his mom's. I find out today that his truck needed repairs, he got his mom to order the part for him, and his friend is going to help him fix it this afternoon.

I shared with him that I would have loved to help him work that out, I could have ordered the part. He said he asked his mom because she had an Amazon account and he tried to set one up at work and couldn't. He didn't know I had one. (Huh?)

Now I'm not the world's most avid online shopper but I've had an Amazon account for years. He sees the prime boxes delivered to the house.

 Amazon account aside...he told me in counseling LAST THURSDAY that he understood that his need to check in with his mom first about things like car repairs wasn't healthy. He genuinely seemed to realize that he could check with me about that, he wanted to, he understood I wanted to help, and he wanted to change the dynamic.  

This whole time he was talking to his mom about car repairs. So bizarre.

Because you've said in the past that I scold him and that makes him retreat, i only told him that this was the dynamic I wanted to shift a little, that he could come to me. All he said was, "sorry I didn't know you had an Amazon account." (What the...?) I didn't get mad, I promise.

It feels really twilight zone-ish. I say something, he genuinely seems to understand, then he repeats the same behavior with absolutely no concept of what just happened.

It feels deceitful, like hes living a life I know little about. It makes me wonder what else hes hiding. I dont know who I married. At the strangest times I get the image of him as a scared 4 yr old with poor decision making and impulse control.

I won't say anything more to him until counseling. Tough reality of my marriage is that I can't be open with him.

GaGrl maybe this is the step back thing? Glad you mentioned that, I thought of you as he was telling me about the repairs.

All in all, though, I think all three parties in my marriage realized yesterday that my marriage can be a priority and no one will keel over.  

Thank you all for being there. I had you in my pocket and it gave me courage.

pj

[GaGrl]

That was most definitely progress!   

So...some examination of what is behind her "gifts" could make for an interesting MC session. My stepdaughter and granddaughter have both been caught in this dynamic before with my husband's ex, the uBPD/BPD in our life.

In spite of knowing that gifts from Ex come with invisible strings (think of the strength of Spiderman's web strands), they know they continue to call for it. Then it comes back to bite them, and they kick themselves -- " I can't believe I fell for it again! "

Extricate from situation, Ex either rates of goes into several weeks of (blissful) silent treatment, rinse and repeat.I

To me, it infantilizes them. But Ex can make the goodies very seductive.

[pursuingJoy]

To me, it infantilizes them. But Ex can make the goodies very seductive.

Huh. I never considered the tie between gifts and infantilization.

I am realizing that my husband needs his mom to comfort him, at least I think that's what he's seeking from her. Whether it's because she didn't give it to him growing up, or he isnt getting something in our marriage, or something else, I don't know.

[Harri]

Hi pJ!  I think things went very well and more importantly, you did very well!    

he told me in counseling LAST THURSDAY that he understood that his need to check in with his mom first about things like car repairs wasn't healthy. He genuinely seemed to realize that he could check with me about that, he wanted to, he understood I wanted to help, and he wanted to change the dynamic. 

This whole time he was talking to his mom about car repairs. So bizarre.

Ugh.  I can see how this would boogle the mind.  It is bizarre.  It is also bizarre to be the one who does what your husband did here.  I am not defending him, it was not the right thing to do and it sounds like he got caught up in his same old role (yes, I know you know that )  I can't tell you how many times when I was finally clued in to how I responded to my mom and even other people in ways that were not healthy and just put me in the same dysfunctional role I always assumed when feeling anxious, in a fog, etc.  I would think things through, have a plan in my head as to how to not play into that dynamic and then *poof*... after I would sit there stunned that I did exactly what I told myself I would not do ... even after practicing an alternative response!  The conditioning, the long held patterns of behavior and the fog really is powerful stuff and takes a while to break through. 

Again, I am not defending him and I am not saying this is what happened for him, it is just a possibility.  You know him better than I do.  I think I can relate to the both of you.  Your assessment of his truly bizarre behavior that is so different to what you both agreed to and his doing the exact opposite of what he agreed to. 

Anyway, thanks for the update.  I was thinking of you yesterday wondering how things went.  You did very very well.  Do you feel good about how things went down?

[Harri]

One more thing:

I do want to tell you that your being triggered is exactly what happens when you are using the board (especially this one) and being vulnerable and open to new perspectives and trying to make significant changes.  It is all part of the healing process.  The fact is, you will get triggered sometimes.  We all do.  Welcome those times.   The point is to work through it and own it.  You have done that and it is a truly great thing to witness.  Thank you for being so open and vulnerable with us all.

 

[GaGrl]

Huh. I never considered the tie between gifts and infantilization.

I am realizing that my husband needs his mom to comfort him, at least I think that's what he's seeking from her. Whether it's because she didn't give it to him growing up, or he isnt getting something in our marriage, or something else, I don't know.

The infantilization says, " You can't handle this by yourself. You aren't an independent adult. Let me do this for you so you don't make a mistake. "

And yes, your husband needs comfort and approval from his mother. And he "knows" she doesn't self-soothe when she is irritated, so those are times she withholds from him. You guys have a successful birthday dinner that was not under her control, and her irritation is apparent. Instead of dropping her off with a cheery good-bye, your husband feels her withholding comfort and approval, and he gets agitated and cannot self-soothe or just "be" with the agitation. So he begins semi-frantic attempts at what he knows will earn her approval.

This is ingrained. Imagine him as a three-year-old, desperately trying to win her approval.

[pursuingJoy]

It is also bizarre to be the one who does what your husband did here. 

Do you feel good about how things went down?

Hi Harri!  it helps to hear from someone who's been in his shoes. Maybe he cant understand his own behavior, so hes focused on the Amazon account. Hes trying to make sense of it. I hope that at some point, as painful as it may be, he can start to see that his upbringing caused him harm, it impacts our marriage and his children. He still insists all is happy and normal.

I felt good about it! I was proud of myself. I was a little nervous but I felt prepared. Distractions with kids and activities were helpful. Planning and being on the same page was absolutely critical to success. I'm very interested to hear what he thinks about doing that every time...part of me wonders if he thinks this was a one time thing.

Just occurred to me...want to hear something interesting the MC did in our session last week? Oh she's good.
She asked my husband if grandma was excited about the birthday girl, and if she wanted to spend one on one time with her. Husband got an odd look on his face and was forced to say, "no, that's not really ever been her thing..." That is something different about our situation compared to others here with bpd grandparents: my MIL does not care if she sees her grandkids or not. She cares about her son meeting her needs, period. I'm wondering if she'll start to see grandkids as a source of supply if he sets boundaries?

   
Instead of dropping her off with a cheery good-bye, your husband feels her withholding comfort and approval, and he gets agitated and cannot self-soothe or just "be" with the agitation. So he begins semi-frantic attempts at what he knows will earn her approval.

This is ingrained. Imagine him as a three-year-old, desperately trying to win her approval.

My eyes got wider as I read this. I understand infantilization and bpd children need for approval as a concept but to hear you explain how its playing out...oh my. No wonder it feels yucky. Thank you.

Do you think his anticipation of her disapproval also explains the timing of him calling her to order car parts? Hes reassuring her by letting her know that he needs her, and reassuring himself that mommy is still there?

You have done that and it is a truly great thing to witness.  Thank you for being so open and vulnerable with us all.

Stop making me cry!  I'm so so grateful for the people on this board, for modeling healthy relationships here, lending your bravery and sharing your experiences so us newbies dont feel alone. Thank you for your patience. I'm listening.

pj

[pursuingJoy]

Had a brief conversation with husband, started with how I found it curious that she'd invited us to the restaurant, but refused to pay. He said in an accusatory and defensive tone, "oh I knew she wouldn't, its because of the email you sent her about financial independence, now she is just terrified of doing something to offend you."

Months ago, my husband sent her an email we wrote together explaining three very basic values, one was financial independence (for her sake and ours).

Somehow, it's now my email, financial independence is considered during restaurant visits that she initiates but not in purchasing car parts, and her terror around me is justifiable.

I asked him some questions but dropped it when it got emotional. We are on different planets. It helps to write it out.

pj