Maybe she really doesn't want a divorce

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Her argument at the time was that it was her basic human rite to have a home where she felt safe away from abuse. I think the argument for me moving out hinged (in my mind) whether she had the rite to that based on her ‘feeling’ or based on actually factual things that happened. Had I have been physically abusive or threatening I might well have sought to remove myself. Examples of being threatening were facial expressions such as looking p!ssed off, moving my hands at all when speaking (gesticulating) or moving in an urgent manner.

I might add that she had £66k in a personal account which only she had access to with which she could have moved her and the children out to gain her rite to safe abode.

Without RO she cannot remove me from the property and I very much doubt she would be able to find the evidence to get one. I have a significant body of evidence I could defend one with anyway. Anyhoo that doesn’t seem to be her intention at the moment.

Enabler

[Enabler]

Her argument at the time was that it was her basic human rite to have a home where she felt safe away from abuse. I think the argument for me moving out hinged (in my mind) whether she had the rite to that based on her ‘feeling’ or based on actually factual things that happened. Had I have been physically abusive or threatening I might well have sought to remove myself. Examples of being threatening were facial expressions such as looking p!ssed off, moving my hands at all when speaking (gesticulating) or moving in an urgent manner.

I might add that she had £66k in a personal account which only she had access to with which she could have moved her and the children out to gain her rite to safe abode.

Without RO she cannot remove me from the property and I very much doubt she would be able to find the evidence to get one. I have a significant body of evidence I could defend one with anyway. Anyhoo that doesn’t seem to be her intention at the moment.

Enabler

[formflier]

I expected her to be unreasonable, not void of thought about what her utopia future looked like.

Can I read anything into that?

  

That's  a new way that you've expressed it and kinda helps me "put my finger" on my opinion that your wife doesn't want a divorce, but is likely to end up with one.

Like a divorce threat that got going to far and then somehow shame prevented pulling back and fear from going forward.  Put some emotional instability on top of that.

Here is the thing.  What practical benefit is there to being divorced.

OK, she gets more money yet knows for sure that she is now responsible (fantasy land goes away).

Money doesn't seem to limit her life now...so that's not it.

She gets all the access now to her kids and has built in childcare, has a husband and a OM.  So in divorce she looses a hubby, yet doesn't gain anything.  Potentially complicates access to OM since schedules will be formalized. (fantasy land goes away)

You get the gist of it.

No way to know if I'm right.  

Perhaps better said that getting a divorce is not a high priority.

Not sure.  

Hang in there Enabler.  Be kind to yourself.

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

My ex didn't have a PD.  He moved out and filed for divorce and then did absolutely nothing to move the divorce forward.  He didn't offer proposals.  He didn't say what he wanted.  He didn't fill out the paperwork to value our personal property.  In my area, a typical divorce takes 60 days.  Ours took 8 months, and it only went through because I got fed up and had my lawyer offer a proposal.   The mediator took my proposal and was able to get my ex to comment on it, and we came to an agreement pretty easily.

For months, I assumed that because he wasn't pushing actively for the divorce, he was having second thoughts.  That wasn't true at all.  He didn't want to be married to me.  Full stop.   He was used to me managing our lives and his schedule and taking care of the paperwork.  It apparently never occurred to him that he could take charge of this; he just assumed I would, eventually, and he was mad at me that it took so long.  For my ex, he was living on his own and dating, telling everyone he was divorcing his nasty wife, and he didn't have to give up any money or assets since the divorce wasn't final.

This may very well be the headspace that your wife is in.  I haven't followed your whole story, so I don't know all the emotional details.  It is a possibility, though, that she has emotionally divorced you and *does* want a divorce, she just doesn't know how to get one, or she's waiting for you to take over the process and rescue her, because that's what you do.

If I'd waited for my ex to take over the process, we could very well still be married, 10 years later, but it would be a marriage in name only with me - not him - living in limbo.  For the first few months, I would have accepted that, because I thought if we were married there was hope.  Then I healed enough to realize that I was shortchanging myself.

My ex and I are friends now.  It took a few years for both of us to heal completely.  If I hadn't met my H, there's always a possibility that my ex and I might have ended up together again one day, once we both grew up.   Divorce isn't necessarily the final chapter.  It's the end of a particular chapter.

[Enabler]

Thankyou worriedStepmom,

I can see many parallels there with my situation and could certainly see that being the case. One thing troubles me though, when my W wants something (for her) she goes and gets it. She might hide it, she might cover it up with lies, she might not tell me about it, but she will do it and will manipulate other people to help her get it. I know that she was looking at houses not years ago, she's tried to sell our house twice in an attempt to get a couple of houses that she wanted... and actually thinking back at it, those houses were appropriate houses, the type of house I was expecting her to come out and say that she wanted in the mediation session... so, she's gone from knowing what house she wanted and being prepared to put our house on the market even before completing necessary legal work, to not knowing what type of house she wants and not having any clue. It's almost as though something happened in Sep which made her want to push for D, then it went away and now she doesn't, what that thing was I don't know.

Did my emails in Sep/Oct spark something in her to doubt what she was doing? Was there something else I don't even have a clue about?

I can certainly see the lack of incentive for your ex to push things forward given he wasn't living in the same property as you. I have seen others like that where actually cutting the ties becomes almost low priority.

Livenlearned, certainly food for thought and I gues people will be looking at me anyway by the end of the next mediation session to come up with some kind of bid for this whole process.

Enabler

[GaGrl]

Might Sept/Oct have been the timeframe when OM told her he didn't see marriage in their future?

[Skip]

Did my emails in Sep/Oct spark something in her to doubt what she was doing? Was there something else I don't even have a clue about?

The relationship has long been dead. She is in another relationship for 4 years.  

If there is doubt, it seems most likely to be about how she can best leave you behind, not any desire to rekindle a relationship with you. We talked about this weeks ago.

The affair partner is married - so the near term relationship is highly uncertain. OM letter a few weeks back signaled some disconnect when he said she might be upset with the letter he sent you.

I think what might be making this hard to understand is that you see this as a binary choice for her - him or me. Everything you have said about her sounds like she already made the decision about you. Done.

OM may not be the way out in early 2020, but perfect in 2021. Her affair partner may not be her way out and she may look for another. She has before.

The status quo is a great incubator and launching pad for her to sort all this out and to develop and test a new life at zero risk and then exit when it is least risky to her.  You provide the fiances, food, safety net, and childcare to make her exit easier and lower risk. She might spend ditch affair partner 4 and move on to affair partner 5. "Four's" role may end up being the realization that she can find more of what she wants.

My point is that it is not binary.

Her plans to exit the marriage will go through ebbs and flows - she will ebb and flow with the affair partner (those are always uncertain situations) -  she may bb and flow and hold out for another suitor.

Should you read hope for a reconciliation in her uncertainty to leave?

One thing I have noticed in these last few weeks of watching you processing all of this, is the grasping at very small things and holding on to them hoping that the marriage is not done. You even said you were confused about the pregnancy test receipts.

I think this grasping at straws is clouding your ability to exit and clouding your ability to re-attract her.

Think about:

Divorcing: does it make sense for you to get caught up in the "wife fantasy vs reality delusion" plan and let her distrust fester in the divorce process to the point that she gets a hired gun to protect her from you - that will be misery and costly.

Re-attracting: every day that you stand by this role and "house boy" your wife losses respect for you. She is following your lead. When you you get into a cat fight with her boyfriend, more respect lost... it's obvious you are trying to win her back by  petty tangling with him. Iy's not working.

Sometimes when we are conflicted we make the worst choices for all eventualities.

If I was coaching you on the best long shot recovery of this relationship, I would say that recovering your respect in a honorable and masculine way will be the most attractive thing you can do.

She has set it up so you can do it very easily.  Sit her down, tell her you love her and your family and when you love someone, you have to be able to let them go - be free - fulfill their dreams. Tell her you know her heart is not fully committed to the marriage and you need that - so here is your exit plan (give her  the financial settlement, tell her you are calling the real estate people in to get the house on the market).

She will think you are bluffing and will test you - try to get you to go back to the old narrative, the passive-aggressive dance you have been doing for years. She may also say "great" - try to call your bluff that way. There is little respect at this point so she will think you will cave.

Then stay the course. Put the house up. Sign the financial and child agreement. Start shopping for a new home, buy some new clothes, take up a new sport. Be polite, respectful, upbeat, and strong. Start implementing your new life.

If there is any hope of reconciliation it will be for Enabler 3.0. As you said, its 80/20 that she is done, but this gives to you constructive moves for all eventualities.

To your wife, Enabler 2.0 is a houseboy who doesn't have a lot of self respect - he takes what crumbs she gives him because that's all he feels he deserves (and she and her affair partner and friends agree) -  Enabler is consumed in pettiness, passive aggressive, co-dependent (he wants EW far more than EW wants him)... all unattractive things.

Stand up for yourself and the kids. Stand up tall.

It's good for all eventualities.

[formflier]

Should you read hope for a reconciliation in her uncertainty to leave?

I don't see any indication that she wants to reconcile either.

It would make sense to me that she may desire Enabler to divorce her, vice her divorce Enabler.

Very similar to worriedStepmom's story.  If Enabler get's on board, my guess is divorce goes through and Enabler wife will assume the mantle that Enabler abused and discarded her (tossed her out of the marriage she was clinging to...or something like that)

Look at it this way. 

Is it possible this is just "trepidation on steroids"?  Yes it's possible, but I don't think it's likely.

I've never gotten the indication that his wife is low functioning or not smart and capable.  So, she is able to get a divorce if she wants one.

My take is that she is "using" divorce/divorce threat like many pwBPD do.  It is likely she may have some understanding that it's become more than a threat and she is unsure how to "put the cork back in".

Again...all of my theory is separate from whether or not she wants to renew the relationship with Enabler.

Flip this around.

What does she gain in divorce?  (especially knowing that she can't move in with OM or be out money)

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

It’s sorta embarrassing to admit this, but it took me two years to go through the divorce process with my abusive ex. It wasn’t that I was wavering on doing it, rather it was that life was so stressful with running my business and having to move my BPD mother a few hundred miles closer, as her dementia was accelerating.

I just didn’t want to add any more stress to my life until I could get some of my ducks in a row.

[Enabler]

Miss you intentionally move the ducks or make up ducks that weren’t in a row though Cat? I see my W making up ducks that aren’t just right. Your story sounds a lot like there were real ducks that very much weren’t in the right place.

Skip, I see a lot of sense in your last post, I really do, but I see my W’s position to be more aligned with FFs version of reality than yours. Maybe as you say I am hopelessly clinging on to hope, and looking for burning embers with which to blow on. I have already gained my masculinity back, I’m not shy in being assertive with her eg last night she was ranting away about how I didn’t pull my weight and every time she was going out (150 nights out YTD) I don’t help out with the kids... of course this is said to the kids. Anyway, I walked down into the kitchen where she was and said “don’t you ever do that again... ever” picked up D6’s reading book and went about the business I was, which was trying to get D6 to read to me. There’s always room for improvement but I’m not a mans man football and beer and never will be, but I’m also not a pushover. I think in the first financial mediation session I showed that I can see myself out, vs she who can’t, I had my sh!t together in the meeting, knew my stuff and knew what was going on. I owned the meeting without saying much. But there’s the difficulty, she wants power and she wants control so if I take too much control she will try and take it back. She wants control but doesn’t want responsibility.

FF, I think the key to this is that she believes I am abusive and by threatening divorce I will realise I am abusive and stop. She wants me to have a eureka moment where I realise the error of my abusive controlling ways... only I can’t do that as I wasn’t abusive in the first place. I was responding to her own chaos and abuse or even better than that, in the case of last night I was just a projection of her own stress. She was late because she hadn’t organised herself earlier in the day (doesn’t work today) she felt rubbish so she had to blame someone... me. She sees me as an ass because she was stressed and someone had to be to blame for that and it sure as hell could r be her. She’s looking to find a solution to the imaginary abuse that she’s receiving because she can’t see that all those feelings come from her and she’s the cause of her own misery. OM just tells her it’s all true.

Enabler

[Skip]

I have already gained my masculinity back, I’m not shy in being assertive with her eg last night she was ranting away about how I didn’t pull my weight and every time she was going out (150 nights out YTD) I don’t help out with the kids... of course this is said to the kids.

"Being more attractive" as it pertains to her feelings about you is about how she see's it. If you are at your best "Enabler 3.0", and she is dressing you down for not doing enough housework when you baby sit and doing it in front of the kids as she heads out to fulfill her private social agenda (150 nights out), I think she is not seeing you as "attractive". Let's face it, most people wouldn't do that to a nanny because the nanny would quit.

By strong and masculine, I didn't mean testy or macho - I wasn't thinking Mike Tyson (boxer) - I was thinking George Clooney or Brad Pitt or Sean Connery type of persona. Masculine, confident, upbeat, far from petty, quietly strong, never a doormat for long.

Life is not a movie, of course, but staying around for regular nanny bashing in front of the kids as she heads out for a night on the  two, screams to her that you have no respect for yourself.

Do you remember asking the question two weeks ago, why doesn't she want me, I have all the right qualities? She's not signaling that she sees that... quit the opposite... she is telling he world you are an abuser.

I’m also not a pushover.

How would you define pushover? Your wife is dating another man for 4 years, you sleep in the guest room, you have three pre-teen children and she goes out 150 nights a year...

I don't mean to be hurtful... I'm just trying to point out that taking this beating is not earning her back, it validates her bad treatment of you.

I think the key to this is that she believes I am abusive and by threatening divorce I will realise I am abusive and stop.

... and then what, be a more compliant nanny?

Did you ever think that filing for divorce gives her a green light to treating you badly, justifies her staying out of the house for 50% of the time (that's your parenting time), and makes her an eligible women to other men. And as said before, she gets your full financial and childcare support.

She wants me to have a eureka moment where I realise the error of my abusive controlling ways... only I can’t do that as I wasn’t abusive in the first place. I was responding to her own chaos and abuse or even better than that, in the case of last night I was just a projection of her own stress. She was late because she hadn’t organised herself earlier in the day (doesn’t work today) she felt rubbish so she had to blame someone... me. She sees me as an ass because she was stressed and someone had to be to blame for that and it sure as hell could r be her. She’s looking to find a solution to the imaginary abuse that she’s receiving because she can’t see that all those feelings come from her and she’s the cause of her own misery.

Good breakdown. We all do this at times... get in a bind and blame someone else.

Here's the thing, most mothers would swallow their frustration because the nanny or the maid would quit. But lets say they slipped and the nanny squeaked a little and then went back to reading "The Magic Tree House". And let's say they slipped a week later, and the nanny squeaked a little and then went back to reading "The Magic Tree House". After that, the filter would be off. Respect for the nanny would be low. Nanny would be treated like a servant - because it appears that she has no self respect.

You've seen this happen.

Think about yourself.

You found one pregnancy test. Months later you found another. That wasn't your breaking point. She has one affair - then another  - then another -  then another. That wasn't your breaking point. The last affair is not one or two nights, one or two weeks, one or two months, one of two year fling - its 4 years. That wasn't your breaking point. Every other day (150 night a year) she goes out to live her life and to have fun with others while you sit at home and baby sit and keep house. That isn't your breaking point.

Instead, day in and day out, you ponder ways to maintain the status quo.

I think the key to this is that she believes I am abusive and by threatening divorce I will realise I am abusive and stop. She wants me to have a eureka moment where I realise the error of my abusive controlling ways...only I can’t do that...

Let's say this is true (above). And as you say, it's pointless.

Aren't you are doing the very same thing. You want her to have a eureka moment where she realizes that her fantasy crashes with reality. Let's say it happens, she realizes that once you are gone, she has to work, she has to hire a babysitter on he nights she wants to go out, she has to mow the yard.

What then?

Being in a protracted divorce has a lot of advantages for her. You have openly admitted to doing what you can to preserve the status quo, because she can pickup and transport children while you are working. In this sense, she provides child care that facilitates your daily access to the kids.

So ostensibly this is a marriage of convenience... albeit a dysfunctional one.

Neither of you can accept an amicable marriage of convenience - as you are both are hellbent on craping in each other's life... as the children sit wide-eyed and watch

[Notwendy]

I think it would help to consider what she may be reluctant to give up. Is it a relationship with you, or that she has a dependable caretaker for the kids who also cleans up the place and seems willing to endure how she treats you. As Skip said, you can't treat a nanny like this. She also knows you will be good to the kids which takes quite a bit of worry from her when she's out.

If she were to be living on her own, she'd have to find someone to do what you have been doing, and pay them, and the kids naturally prefer you.

So, I guess you have to decide - does she want to be married because she wants you as her husband? Or does she like having you provide these functions for her?

[Enabler]

In essence what I think you are describing is the loss / absence of respect (for me), to the point of contempt. I completely agree with you, and I completely agree that my W has zero respect for me and hasn't for a considerable period of time. I have known this for some time and this is how I see the dynamic playing out... actually I'll use the example which isn't my W.

I used to work at a hedge fund. There were 3 of us trading convertible bonds and options, I was the desk b!tch. The head trader (B) was a colossal tool. No clearer case of NPD I have ever experienced. He was from Shorthills New Jersey and was an 80's throwback New Yorkian, should have driven a Ferrari GTO but instead had an Aston DB9, 13k ft house and a skinny long island princess wife. His whole world was one giant show. Then there was a Jnr trader (M), super super super smart guy, he made pretty much all the money whilst B lost a bunch being impulsive and trying to be the hot shot trader. M was a quiet thoughtful man who had quite a few aspergers traits, socially awkward and militantly rational to the point of being devoid of empathy, however, the important thing is that he made the money. B had complete contempt for M, and although I was the desk slave B treated me better than M. M took an ungodly amount of grief from B. B would often put him in double blind situations, shout at him for the most ludicrous things and generally pull him up for even the smallest loss on a trade. M never once stood up to B, not once in 8 years, he just sucked it up and worked harder. The golden thread that ran through all of B's rants was that he would rant when M made B feel bad about himself because M made money and B lost it. B had to shoot M down to keep him down... else he would have to admit to himself that M was better than him, and M should be the head trader not him...

As you described Skip, M ate B's abuse and didn't stand up for himself so B gave more and more and more. M got paid handsomely, and he took this money home to his W, who also berated him for even breathing. Me on the other hand fought back against any attempts by B to direct his fury at me, he'd shout at me, I'd shout back, we'd get over it and move on, B never carted me off to HR, he never docked my bonus, I'd get 6m of quiet whilst B's inner turmoil was directed at M. Telling B worked, telling B aggressively worked exceptionally well, he actually gained respect for me for it.  

So here's the thing, when I stood up for myself at home against my W's inability to preserve her own boundaries (over consuming my time, my effort and our money), she called me abusive. When I came to BPD Family I took the advice of the forum and sort to stop conflict, hold boundaries and look out for myself and the children. I took the advice of the forum and emotionally decoupled from my W to reduce my own emotional rollercoaster. I took the advice of the forum and stopped using my W's mirror to see who I am, whether or not I'm behaving correctly, whether or not I'm a bad person. You believe that my W see's me as a servant as a result, you could well be right, she see's me as abusive as well. You believe that my W see's me as weak, but she also believes that I am dangerous. You suggest my W see's me as inferior, but she also says that I make her feel bad because of my competence.

So what if my W, whom I can't control, has contempt for me just because like M made B feel bad because he made money and B lost it, I make my W feel bad because I'm chilled and she's definitely not. I get stuff done and she doesn't. She turns up late, and I don't. The kids prefer my food. I understand money better. etc etc. Incidentally, before she ranted about me, I was sitting with the kids laughing and joking doing the "Smell test" on Alexa... "Alexa, what does Daddy smell like?" I think someone in this position has a couple of options, 1) feel lucky to have a competent husband 2) resent their husband and see them as a cause of their feeling of inadequacy. My W has picked option 2.

You're right, she likely does see that filing for divorce gives her the green light to 'do as she pleases', and in reality she was doing as she pleased before she filed for divorce anyway but now she feels moral freedom to suit herself. But we get back to her feelings vs reality. I know that telling her about reality doesn't work... she knows what reality is... she's chaotic, I'm a good father, I cook a better spag boll than she does... showing her also doesn't work, that just makes her feel worse about herself (ala other nights rant). So... do I fight the contempt which is based on her shame, do I provide her the divorce she wants because she can't bare to look in the mirror I supposedly hold up to her, do I show her that I'm as weak as she'd love me to be so she could feel relatively better about herself... or do I continue to be a good father, cook a great spag boll, let my W find her way through getting the divorce that she wants, go to bed at 22:30 because I've got to get up at 05:15 for work... if she wants to see me as weak and unattractive then there's not a whole lot I can do about that. My friend (normally super critical of me) said to me on Saturday that he was amazed that I took 3 kids on holiday on my own for 2 weeks, I thought nothing of it (and still don't) but frankly I think there's a lot of men who would baulk at the idea... is it weak to be a 'Nanny' or the sign of a strong competent man? Personally I thought less of my friend than more of myself based on his comments... this isn't the 1970's anymore mate!

I've never said that my W is welcome 'no questions' back into 'the marriage' after knowing the things I know, after the things I've seen and the things that have been said. Been there, done that before. I've said that I am willing to resolve them. There's an acute difference. That's one of the reasons why she is stuck. I won't buy into her delusion and accept FULL responsibility for her actions and the demise of our relationship (which others have told her she is totally without blame for) which might allow her back into the relationship guilt free, and, on the flip side, her route forward looks physically and emotionally painful, and generally less attractive.

She wants her cake and eat it and for a while I believe she's fooled herself into thinking she's got it... but she hasn't, it was all just a mirage. Is she smelling the sh!t she's shovelling now... maybe.

[Enabler]

So, I guess you have to decide - does she want to be married because she wants you as her husband? Or does she like having you provide these functions for her?

For now she doesn't want to be married to me but can't divorce me because I provide these functions for her, but at the same time she resents the functions I do for her.

[Enabler]

Put another way, she feels controlled by her irresponsibility but doesn't want responsibility that would give her control.

[Skip]

There are four main themes in your post...

you're her nanny she resents me, berates me she's tentative about leaping out she wants to be the hero of this story

Isn't the opposite also true...

she's your daycare you resent her, you shame and antagonize her you're making it hard to end the marriage you wants to be the hero of this story

I'm not saying it's equal or who did it first or who is a better person - but the more we drill down, the more it seems that there is a mutuality to all of this.

And this is a highly toxic environment for the babies.  

It seems better options would be:

Alt. 1) Formally adopt the marriage of convenience during the divorce process and let it go as a reasonable pace. Have an informal contract of obligations (and a peace treaty - drop the abuse (her)and shame (you) stuff - stop fighting with OM).

Alt. 2) To divorce, pay the childcare, build new families for the kids to grow up in. Put the house up for sale, expedite a divorce through - you don't need her to agree, family court is quite capable - start building separate lives.

There is a lot of energy (negative energy) invested in your resentments of each other.

[Notwendy]

Enabler, I think you could bring flowers every night for her, empty your bank account with her wishes, fly her and OM to Hawaii for a week and she would think you are abusive. This is because of her disordered thinking and her preference for victim mode. For she and OM to have a rescuer -victim relationship - you have to be the persecutor. The victim-rescuer relationship is a strong bond because neither of them are looking at their own issues when they are both aligned against a common Persecutor.

I fell into this with my parents. Every child wants to be loved and so, I decided that if only I was "good enough" then my mother would be happy with me and my father would love me. I was good, in fact, I was a total doormat to my mother, doing her bidding, trying to make her happy. But it didn't work, because they needed a persecutor in order for my father to be a rescuer. They were most loving to each other when they were both aligned against a common persecutor. I observed that role vary from me, siblings, ( whoever Mom was angry at at the time). If I did stand up for myself, I was a horrible child.  I saw my parents once embracing and saying " our horrible children" and comforting each other.

Horrible children? My parents didn't have perfect kids but they have nice ones, kids who try to do the right thing even if our parents didn't acknowledge it. We don't drink too much, do drugs, or anything criminal. We have college degrees, respectable jobs, families. What have we done to be such horrible children?Nothing. She thinks this because this is how she thinks.

Enabler, IMHO, you need to let go of what she thinks and trying to influence what she thinks of you because it's not something you can control.  I watched my father go and give all he could for her and she still sees herself as a victim and so abused by all of us. He planned well for the event that he'd be gone and she's financially secure now. She didn't earn a penny in all her years. Yet, she still sees herself as not being treated well.

I brought this behavior pattern into my own marriage and any time my H complained about me, I tried harder. More cooking, more sex, more being a doormat. I'm a mild mannered small size person and somehow he saw me as a tough ogre and mean to him? Finally, I had to accept that he's going to think what he thinks no matter what. Ironically, it is only when I stopped focusing on him and began to center on my own self concept that I was able to feel OK about myself no matter what others said, stand up for myself, and the relationship dynamics improved.

So why don't people cheat? You may say the number one reason is morals. True, but the flesh is weak. In the moment, both morals and consequences are barriers. Even some of the most religious men know this and aren't alone in a room with a woman. While some may take issue with this idea, it's not because they are lecherous. It's because they understand human nature and don't fool themselves with thinking they are different.

We also don't cheat because of the consequences. But even if you say your wife is creating her own guilt consequences, she has relatively few as it is. She has her cake and eats it too. Why should she give this up?

[formflier]

Enabler,  (and others)

No shock that you and I seem to "perceive" the world and "think about it" from a similar perspective.

Also no shock that my (our) perspectives are generally running "upstream" against the majority of other points of view on your situation.

So, I take note and sit up when I see posts that I completely agree with...regarding your story.

The analysis below is spot on.  I'm not sure "what you do with it", but can you spend some time with it and see if you agree with the analysis?


 

There are four main themes in your post...

you're her nanny she resents me, berates me she's tentative about leaping out she wants to be the hero of this story

Isn't the opposite also true...

she's your daycare you resent her, you shame and antagonize her you're making it hard to end the marriage you wants to be the hero of this story

"hero" resonates with me.  Makes me wonder who Enabler and his wife want to see them as heros?

Also gets me wondering if there is a way they can both be heros, perhaps that's a way forward to a place of less conflict.  Enabler, any ideas come to mind?


Switching gears a bit

We also don't cheat because of the consequences. But even if you say your wife is creating her own guilt consequences, she has relatively few as it is. She has her cake and eats it too. Why should she give this up? (get divorced?)

This is the EXACT same logic I use to arrive at the conclusion that divorce is a "net negative" for Enabler wife.

If Enabler wife and OM wanted to shack up together, my analysis would be totally different.

Post divorce Enabler wife will have a household to take care of without her "built in domestic help".  I suppose there will still be some amount of childcare available since Enabler will want to spend/maximize time with his children.

Look at it this way.  Will she have more or less access to OM post divorce?  I see less.

There is also less "fantasy" and more "reality" post divorce.


Last perspective:  

It's not a forgone outcome that Enabler "confronting" her and "holding her accountable" (perhaps Biblically in the church) would result in divorce.  

In God's plan (method) confrontation opens the door to repentance and perhaps forgiveness.  

She may or may not walk through that door.

Perhaps some time in Ephesians 5.  Ask yourself, is God advising "darkness" or "light?  "Enabling" or "exposing"?



Enabler

If you are going to stay put in a marriage due to values/morals/Biblical teaching/ then shouldn't you conduct the rest of your life according to those principles.  (in general and specifically your decision to "help" a pastor in the church "remain in darkness" by your silence)

Perhaps also read the first part of Leviticus.  How would that passage suggest God "sees" silence?

Final for this post:  One of the curious things about your posts/situation Enabler (and perhaps your wife's as well) is a desire to have it both ways.

1.  Honor religious values.
2.  Not rock the boat  (or perhaps have others think poorly of you)

I'm not aware of a way to get both of those done.

 

I'm sorry you are in this situation my friend.  But I assure you that you are. 

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Isn't the opposite also true...

she's your daycare you resent her, you shame and antagonize her you're making it hard to end the marriage you wants to be the hero of this story

No... just no

she's your daycare -  it would be cheaper to get an Aupair £400 pcm

you resent her, you shame and antagonize her -  I am frustrated that she is making choices, and believe untruths to make her herself unhappy (and I believe she is unhappy). Is tell her factual truth antagonistic or an attempt at enlightenment? Are you trying to antagonise me or enlighten me?

you're making it hard to end the marriage - I am not making it easier, I am not making it harder. If I wasn't 'available' would it be harder or easier?

you want to be the hero of this story -  Surely if I wanted that then I would have rescued her, I'd have adopted all her guilt and shame and prepped the divorce she wants. Am I being a hero to my kinds? Rescuing them? Maybe... or am I being a good father?

[Notwendy]

you're making it hard to end the marriage - I am not making it easier, I am not making it harder. If I wasn't 'available' would it be harder or easier?

You are making it harder for her to leave by being available as her sitter/housekeeper and making it easy for her to have her romance with OM with no strings attached.

You are making it so that she doesn't experience the real life consequences of her choices, and so it keeps her and OM in fantasy land having what is more like a teen age romance than an adult relationship with adult responsibilities ( like arranging child care so they can go out, experiencing being on her own running a household on her own).

You are making it harder for her to choose between two realities by keeping one a fantasy.

While you and FF are thinking you are not on the same page as others, this isn't only a secular idea. James Dobson doesn't advocate being a doormat to "save" a marriage
https://www.amazon.com/Love-Must-Be-Tough-Marriages/dp/141431745X


I am not advocating divorce, just a chance for her to see the reality of her choices. Only then could she make a true choice. By enabling this affair, she isn't seeing reality- she can't make one. Letting her experience what she is advocating for is risky, but it also may be the only way she might reconsider her plans.

[Enabler]

Final for this post:  One of the curious things about your posts/situation Enabler (and perhaps your wife's as well) is a desire to have it both ways.

1.  Honor religious values.
2.  Not rock the boat  (or perhaps have others think poorly of you)

I'm not aware of a way to get both of those done.

Me neither but I think my ultimate desire is to be effective. It would be a suicide mission I'm sure, but there's no point in a suicide mission where I'm shot in the head when I put my head above the parapet... that does no one any good, least of all me. I'm not completely selfless. I guess it's 'bad' to say I wouldn't be doing this for purely altruistic reasons.

Would I be at all interested in correcting her morality if we weren't married and my kids weren't interacting with her? Doubtful.

[Enabler]

You are making it harder for her to leave by being available as her sitter/housekeeper and making it easy for her to have her romance with OM with no strings attached.

You are making it so that she doesn't experience the real life consequences of her choices, and so it keeps her and OM in fantasy land having what is more like a teen age romance than an adult relationship with adult responsibilities ( like arranging child care so they can go out, experiencing being on her own running a household on her own).

You are making it harder for her to choose between two realities by keeping one a fantasy.

While you and FF are thinking you are not on the same page as others, this isn't only a secular idea. James Dobson doesn't advocate being a doormat to "save" a marriage
https://www.amazon.com/Love-Must-Be-Tough-Marriages/dp/141431745X


I am not advocating divorce, just a chance for her to see the reality of her choices. Only then could she make a true choice. By enabling this affair, she isn't seeing reality- she can't make one. Letting her experience what she is advocating for is risky, but it also may be the only way she might reconsider her plans.

That's a great book Notwendy and one that FF encouraged me to read several years ago. I re-read some of it recently. The one scenario that Dobson doesn't cover very well, if at all, is one where a married woman  WITH KIDS having an affair. He doesn't explain how the man "puts" his wife in the position where she will feel the full consequences of her choices without detrimental impacts on their children and himself.

Her reality may well come when the divorce is completed, and I'm totally prepared for things to go that way. Do I want that? No. Might it happen... certainly.

Also, do not be fooled that I am her only rescuer, her whole family are more than willing to enable her. I was out last night, her parents babysat. I'm out Thursday night, her parents are babysitting again. Am I to be out everynight? 

[Notwendy]

We go through this with many threads, and make similar suggestions, yet each time you defend your position and your choices.

That's fine, Enabler, it's your marriage and your choice. None of us can make these choices but you. All we can do is suggest based on our own experiences and perspective, but we don't experience the benefits or consequences of the choices. These are yours.

Your replies also contain a question that is not realistic and it comes across as snarky. "Should I be out every night" is an example. Of course not, that's ridiculous and nobody here would suggest that. This kind of response also shuts down the conversation. Others have suggested that perhaps this style of communication comes across as invalidating, which could be perceived by your wife as "abusive" ( I don't think you are abusive).

I am not sure what you want to hear from us in this post. " maybe she doesn't want a divorce"- perhaps you want us to support that. I don't know what your wife is thinking in terms of feelings towards you. It just looks like she has a pretty nice situation being able to go out as much as she does.

A lot happens before a divorce- I assume there is a period of separation first. I know this is only one case, and it may not apply to you, but I have a friend who left her husband. I was totally shocked, she was very religious, church going lady but a narcisist managed to woo her away. Once with him, he changed, became an abusive brute. Her husband took her back. They are still together. So, I don't consider your wife living on her own to be the end of your marriage. It may be that she sees that what she thought she wanted wasn't so great after all. Or perhaps it is that great. There is no way to know.

[Skip]

We've been discussing this topic at length and I have seen you repeatedly derail discussions when we touch into the area of self-awareness or ask you to re-visit your logic.

I can't put my hand on it, but I suspect this is not a show for us, but rather a dysfunctional coping mechanism to avoid facing the hard realities of your family situation. You are derailing your own thought process.

You are in a tough situation, Enabler, and you are at a fork in the road where you can decide to save yourself and the children, or to defeat your wife in a morality battle as revenge for her treating you like "M" (your hedge-fund story above). You are seeing the light at times but then default to the latter.

As we discuss things in detail, I'm seeing quite a few exampled of facts changing to support your entrenched position.  

For example, you have argued at length that you can endure the nanny bashing and it never happens in front of the kids and you take it because you have 50% access to you children.

You have strongly debated that you can't get 50/50% visitation in a divorce because of either your schedule (that can't change), your mothers personality (that can't be endured), the cost of day care (affordable), or the help of an eventual new romantic partner (blasphemy).

Yet in this thread, you say "I could hire an au pair".

If that is true and if you show the court you have 50% now (which you have kept a record of)... and if your wife wants to keep up her 150 nights on the town... you could easily overcome this hurdle.

A good dad would do all of the above to the best interest of the kids (and financial responsibility). The house is toxic.

But then you would have to give up the morality battle - the hero battle. And in her case, the "abuser" battle.

She wants 150 nights on the town. You want 150 nights with the kids. You have the capital facilitate and two home family.

...but that pesky morality battle...  

2/3 of one of your youngest child's full life this has been the norm. 1/3 of your oldest child's life this has been the norm. How will they treat men when they grow up? What is there model of a family?

There is a lot written about parent not being able to give up the fight and the fight becoming more important that the children's upbringing.

But as notwendy says, it is your life, your children, your decision. I'm surprised so many members participated in this conversation, but they are fading away and soon the challenges will stop as none of us want to beat you up or make you feel worse. Take solace in knowing that everyone is trying to help.

[formflier]

While you and FF are thinking you are not on the same page as others, this isn't only a secular idea. James Dobson doesn't advocate being a doormat to "save" a marriage
https://www.amazon.com/Love-Must-Be-Tough-Marriages/dp/141431745X
 

By enabling this affair, she isn't seeing reality- she can't make one.


Letting her experience what she is advocating for is risky, but it also may be the only way she might reconsider her plans.

I would 100% support Enabler following Dobson's interpretation of scripture (which I think is spot on) and his "prescription" in this book.

Enabler has "opened the cage door"

Enabler has "left all the goodies in the cage".

I think Dobson would recommend "removing the goodies."

Would those that have read the book before agree?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

This thread has reached its maximum length and is now locked. The conversation continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341807.0