How do I know if I'm doing the right thing?

[arabella]

So the most common advice seems to be to ignore a BPD partner who is in the midst of an episode (for lack of a better term). Do not rescue. But how do I know if I'm doing the right thing? It feels wrong to ignore someone who is depressed and the more I do my own thing the more he tells me that "see? there's nothing left of this relationship. we don't have sex. we don't even talk to each other!" But if I talk 'too much' or try to engage him he gets angry and overwhelmed. He could go entire days barely speaking and I have always been the one to pull him out of his shell (I'm a talker, he's a listener, it's always worked for us, and he likes my chatter when he's not dysregulated). So, as always, I can't win. And I'm not happy in this place. I feel like my head is going to explode. Oh, and I'm having to make a conscious effort not to: a) burst into tears all the time; and b) not start swearing at him for being such an asshat.

What does 'detaching with love' look like exactly? I need some help finding some balance. I must be doing it wrong?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[inepted]

I was actually thinking of making a post something similar to what you just posted. It just feels so wrong to be ignoring her right now. Like not talking to her is proving to her that I dont care about her anymore in her mind. Even though she wont say it to me, from past relationships she would always point it out "See, so and so doesnt care about me anymore, they dont even talk to me". I feel like the longer I go nc, the less chance we'll ever have a chance to salvage the relationship.

[laelle]

You have to take care of you first.  Its detaching with love hun, its not a mean act.  Its not your job to pull him out of his moods.  In truth, you do him NO favors to take that job from him.  He needs to learn to self soothe.  He is use to you trying to fix him.  When you fail at it, it becomes your fault.  As you can see by your post.  Let him take responsibility for him.  It helps him and helps you.

My bf has black moods as well.  I generally try to get a feel for it at first.  When I know for sure he is in one of his moods where he feels the need to distance himself, I give him the space he needs without trying to fix him.  I ask how he is doing and try to hear what he is saying, but I do not emotionally play into his moods.  I do not over analyze.  I do not JADE.  Sometimes he just needs to exist in that state, and I have to let go and let him.  No one said you had to go have a party while your partner isnt well, the point is to not take it personally, and dont let it stop your life.  The healthier you are, the healthier your partner will be.

A black mood is different from a rage.  It is my boundary that I will not allow anyone to rage at me.  When our convo turns to the point of where I am emotionally hurting, I will detach, and come back later.  If I continue.  I will most likely end up JADEing because I feel invalidated, which will infuriate him which will lead to more emotional hurt and possibly leaving the relationship.  Its not good for either of us.  He can react anyway he wants to my detaching except yelling at me, because im not there to hear it.  Its helped save our relationship.

[yeeter]

 

Dont fall into the JADE'ing.  As laelle says, he is used to taking his own emotional frustrations out on others.  By detaching (lovingly), you are in effective training him to learn to deal with his own emotions instead of doing it for him.  Imagine it like a child, and a development lesson to be learned.

Detaching with love... .  means doing it because its a healthy thing to do for both of you.  Not doing it for control.  Not doing it for punishment.  Not doing it out of anger.

It means YOU become the leader in the relationship, and become a strong example of how to treat each other and chart this course going forward.  After a while, many times, they appreciate the stability/comfort that this provides.

[an0ught]

Hi arabella,

sounds like your are frustrated, stuck and questioning how to handle your situation  .

What does 'detaching with love' look like exactly? I need some help finding some balance. I must be doing it wrong?

Distancing is only a poor band-aid for respect. Sometimes one needs to resort to it as that is the only way to protect ones boundaries.

I found it useful to think of detaching not in terms of distance but in terms of

  - boundaries

  - respect

But if I talk 'too much' or try to engage him he gets angry and overwhelmed. He could go entire days barely speaking and I have always been the one to pull him out of his shell (I'm a talker, he's a listener, it's always worked for us, and he likes my chatter when he's not dysregulated). So, as always, I can't win. And I'm not happy in this place. I feel like my head is going to explode. Oh, and I'm having to make a conscious effort not to: a) burst into tears all the time; and b) not start swearing at him for being such an asshat.

It is hard to suppress such strong emotions. How do you think do you come across to him? What would be alternatives?

So the most common advice seems to be to ignore a BPD partner who is in the midst of an episode (for lack of a better term). Do not rescue. But how do I know if I'm doing the right thing? It feels wrong to ignore someone who is depressed and the more I do my own thing the more he tells me that "see? there's nothing left of this relationship. we don't have sex. we don't even talk to each other!"

How are you responding to this?

[arabella]

inepted - yes! Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one... .  but I'm sorry to hear you are stuck in a sucky situation too. Hope you'll share this thread with me so we can work through it!

laelle and yeeter - I'm working hard not to JADE, I know that's something that I'd been doing and, you're right, it's no good at all! Such an easy habit to fall into but I'm working on it. Fortunately, my H doesn't generally rage at me. He gets angry and goes silent, fumes, and runs away. Probably better, but it still hurts. I know he's in a bad place right now because he's raised his voice twice in the past week (I don't remember this happening at all in the past 10 years). The problem right now is that he's not just having little bursts, he's in a full on depressive state and his P is worried. So, while I know that I can't fix it, I'm wondering what level of engagement is appropriate? In another thread someone was recommending pulling away entirely to stop the cycle... .  

an0ught -

sounds like your are frustrated, stuck and questioning how to handle your situation

^ spot on!

I'm trying to sort through the idea of boundaries. A lot of these skills are new to me and, while I was unconsciously employing some of them before, because I wasn't really aware of it, I wasn't doing a particularly good job. It's a bit of a learning curve for sure! I'm not even sure my boundaries are the issue here? Or maybe they are? As I said, he's not raging or actually doing anything. So what I'm responding to is someone who is pulling further and further away and just being generally miserable and cranky. I'm trying not to take it personally, per the great advice I've been getting from these boards!

It is hard to suppress such strong emotions. How do you think do you come across to him? What would be alternatives?

I think he can tell I'm on the brink of some kind of emotional explosion, and I think it's making him anxious and angry. I'm trying hard to get a grip on myself so that I'm not taking things personally - I'm hoping that being prepared will take the edge off so that I can be more compassionate (internally) and calm (outwardly). It's all very raw right now so this is a challenge and a half. I am working out more to help calm myself, and keeping busy so that I have distractions, and of course this forum is helping me to understand a lot. Normally I would explain to him that I'm just a little tired/cranky/whatever myself and let him know not to take it personally. And under normal circumstances he would accept that and it's all fine. But he's not in a place to be able to listen at all so that's not working this time. I need some new skills. Do you have any suggestions?

How are you responding to this?

I haven't really. This is his current version of an 'intense conversation' so we're avoiding. He's told me flat out that he can't handle relationship discussion right now and I believe him. But, my plan for next time it comes up, is to: validate his feelings of frustration and dissatisfaction; tell him I feel the same way; ask him to help come up with a plan/some ideas (perhaps via email so he doesn't have to talk) to work on these issues so that we both feel more confident going forward. So in the meantime... .  How do I get my actions to address some of these issues independently of him? Obviously conversation is out. The sex issue I have no idea - he's physically avoiding me. Actually, the issue with the physical intimacy is probably 50% his current gf (we have an open r/s) - she's pulling away, he's upset, doesn't want to 'cheat' on her (he doesn't consciously acknowledge this but the issue has come up before). Not sure what I can do with that one? 

[Somewhere]

What does 'detaching with love' look like exactly? I need some help finding some balance. I must be doing it wrong?

Do not wait to be perfect.

What they told me was to start with the Detachment (NOW!) part.

You are working on Progress, not Perfection.

So what does it look like?  More like what it feels like.  If what is being done is making you feel crappy -- Detach.  

Just put a Crappy Meter on the dashboard of your mind.  When you see the Meter go out of the Green and heading into the Yellow towards the Red.  Say I have to go _____ and get out of there.  

Not your job to clean up his crap.  Leave that to the Girlfriend(s).

[arabella]

Somewhere - I like your crap-o-meter visual! haha I think I'm stuck because what's making me feel crappy is what he's NOT doing. And, yes, I realize I can't make him do anything but it's hard to live with being ignored or living with a cranky troll. I'm trying to just ignore him but it's making me miserable.

I'm not going to do this, because I realize it will make things worse and is entirely unproductive, but I feel like emailing his idiot GF and telling her what a friggin' loser she is and could she please get her act together and clean up her own mess. I honestly think she's suffering from either BPD or NPD (or both) as well. She's firmly entrenched in playing a push/pull game that I have front row seats for. And she doesn't give a crap about anyone but herself (I know her ex-fiance too, what a disaster). 

[inepted]

I'm trying to sort through the idea of boundaries. A lot of these skills are new to me and, while I was unconsciously employing some of them before, because I wasn't really aware of it, I wasn't doing a particularly good job. It's a bit of a learning curve for sure! I'm not even sure my boundaries are the issue here? Or maybe they are? As I said, he's not raging or actually doing anything. So what I'm responding to is someone who is pulling further and further away and just being generally miserable and cranky. I'm trying not to take it personally, per the great advice I've been getting from these boards!

Sounds very similar to my situation. A lot of the skills Ive been learning about I was employing with out even realizing it half the time. Im still trying to figure out the boundaries too. She's not really raging or doing anything what soever. I was just responding to someone who was pulling further and further away and feeling miserable the more attached we became. Whenever she would realize how close we were getting she would just pull away. 

I haven't really. This is his current version of an 'intense conversation' so we're avoiding. He's told me flat out that he can't handle relationship discussion right now and I believe him. But, my plan for next time it comes up, is to: validate his feelings of frustration and dissatisfaction; tell him I feel the same way; ask him to help come up with a plan/some ideas (perhaps via email so he doesn't have to talk) to work on these issues so that we both feel more confident going forward. So in the meantime... .  How do I get my actions to address some of these issues independently of him? Obviously conversation is out. The sex issue I have no idea - he's physically avoiding me. Actually, the issue with the physical intimacy is probably 50% his current gf (we have an open r/s) - she's pulling away, he's upset, doesn't want to 'cheat' on her (he doesn't consciously acknowledge this but the issue has come up before). Not sure what I can do with that one? 

Again, I know how you feel. My ex and I keep dancing around the conversation too. She's made it clear she just doesn't have the answers yet or know what to say, so that's kind of why we're on the break right now. Personally, it doesnt sound like there is anything you can do right now either, except take care of yourself. I think when he's ready to have that discussion, he might try and talk about it to you. Or maybe not. Its almost impossible to predict sometimes. For me, my ex basically left little clues saying to leave her be and let her work on things on her own. Maybe she did it intentionally or subconsciously, I dont know.

[Somewhere]

Somewhere - I like your crap-o-meter visual! haha I think I'm stuck because what's making me feel crappy is what he's NOT doing. And, yes, I realize I can't make him do anything but it's hard to live with being ignored or living with a cranky troll. I'm trying to just ignore him but it's making me miserable.

Best  you are going to do playing that is breakeven.

Head out the door and go do something YOU LIKE.

Quit wasting your life in his/their misery.

I'm not going to do this, because I realize it will make things worse and is entirely unproductive, but I feel like emailing his idiot GF and telling her what a friggin' loser she is and could she please get her act together and clean up her own mess. I honestly think she's suffering from either BPD or NPD (or both) as well. She's firmly entrenched in playing a push/pull game that I have front row seats for. And she doesn't give a crap about anyone but herself (I know her ex-fiance too, what a disaster).  

Ann Landers used to have a saying -- Thank Goodness They Found Each Other.  Saves somebody else the misery.

So what would do with Do-Overs in your life?

You have them everyday, yunno.

[arabella]

So I've got a job interview lined up for this week. I've been running more. I started doing yoga. And I found this forum. I spoke to a therapist last week and she referred me to someone who has experience with PDs - I have my first app't with him this week. And I'm waiting for it to snow again so I can try x-country skiing (I found a place that rents skiis, plus local conservation area paths, so I can try it for cheap!) So those are my first steps. Definitely open to further ideas. I want to keep busy.

I sent H an email outlining a 'proposal' for the next few months and he's agreed to it (again via email) and thanked me for thinking through our current situation (this is definitely an improvement). Basically, we agree to work on our relationship (no threatening to leave) and reassess at the end of the set period of time. I agree to be supportive in whatever he feels he needs to do to make himself feel better (with limits). He agrees to explain any awkward situations to family/friends. He agrees to be upfront and honest with me. I agree not to 'over react' or get angry when he tells me things so that he doesn't have to be afraid to tell me. I think it's generally just following the guidelines from this site... .  We still need to tweak the agreement and set out boundaries etc. so I would appreciate if anyone has input or suggestions!

Ann Landers used to have a saying -- Thank Goodness They Found Each Other.  Saves somebody else the misery.

So what would do with Do-Overs in your life?

Now if only they could actually SEE themselves! It's so frustrating. H totally can't see what a complete <insert totally inappropriate derogatory term here> this woman is. Also bear in mind almost their entire r/s has been via email. Okay, I have to not think about it - it sends me right over the edge. *sigh* DETACHING.

So, do-overs... .  Not really do-overs so much as do-nows, I think. The past is done and gone, I'm not resurrecting it. Boundaries. I need to set them and stick to them and INSIST on preserving them. I was way to wishy-washy in the past. I learned all of this 10 years ago and then lapsed as time went by. And the more I lapsed, the worse things got. I need to make it STICK this time!

[Grey Kitty]

It is hard to suppress such strong emotions. How do you think do you come across to him? What would be alternatives?

I think he can tell I'm on the brink of some kind of emotional explosion, and I think it's making him anxious and angry. I'm trying hard to get a grip on myself so that I'm not taking things personally - I'm hoping that being prepared will take the edge off so that I can be more compassionate (internally) and calm (outwardly). It's all very raw right now so this is a challenge and a half. I am working out more to help calm myself, and keeping busy so that I have distractions, and of course this forum is helping me to understand a lot. Normally I would explain to him that I'm just a little tired/cranky/whatever myself and let him know not to take it personally. And under normal circumstances he would accept that and it's all fine. But he's not in a place to be able to listen at all so that's not working this time. I need some new skills. Do you have any suggestions?

So much of our communications (outside this forum!) are non-verbal. It is very hard to say something supportive and validating when you are feeling emotionally overwhelmed instead of compassionate. It is even harder to say it with full sincerity so that your body language makes the same statement.

Your best bet is to make sure you really are calm and compassionate when you try to talk to him, especially about something that is serious/important/emotionally loaded. If you aren't in a place to make things better, you probably will make things worse.

Somewhere - I like your crap-o-meter visual! haha I think I'm stuck because what's making me feel crappy is what he's NOT doing. And, yes, I realize I can't make him do anything but it's hard to live with being ignored or living with a cranky troll. I'm trying to just ignore him but it's making me miserable.

It is hard to live with. Have you read the workshop on the silent treatment? I remember crying when I first read it. Being ignored is so damaging, so insidious, and also very hard to deal with in a way that doesn't make things worse.

I'm not going to do this, because I realize it will make things worse and is entirely unproductive, but I feel like emailing his idiot GF and telling her what a friggin' loser she is and could she please get her act together and clean up her own mess. I honestly think she's suffering from either BPD or NPD (or both) as well. She's firmly entrenched in playing a push/pull game that I have front row seats for. And she doesn't give a crap about anyone but herself (I know her ex-fiance too, what a disaster).  

Gawd, I know that feeling of having season tickets to the front row of that sort of wretched drama! I'm finally realizing what I can do about that situation:

I can refuse to go to the theater . The best solution would be to just not let myself get involved in their crap, even when I do hear about it. If I'm not strong enough for that, I can set a boundary of refusing to be in a conversation that involves that drama. Actually I'm not sure. Perhaps emotionally checking out to avoid participating in triangulation is worse than just changing the subject, and refusing to be involved at all.

[arabella]

Thanks, Grey Kitty, you're right, I need to get my own emotions under control. It's difficult. Sometimes I feel good and confident, and other times I'm sad and needy, and yet other times I'm full of anger or just plain overwhelmed. I'm not initiating any conversation - he can't handle it anyway. It's my reactions to just the mundane day-to-day stuff that are volatile (yup, it's that bad)!

The silent treatment link was really interesting. Now I'm not sure if he's silent to punish me or because he's really overwhelmed and just can't handle communication/input right now. I suspect it's a bit of both but mostly the latter. It's kind of sad, really.

The problem with having tickets to the show is that the outcome affects me so I sort of want to know how the plot's developing. And holy crap am I bad at not knowing things - my curiosity and need for information is going to be the death of me. But it's like standing up part way through the show and yelling at the actors that they're idiots and don't they see how this is going to end and why are they DOING that? Umm... .  yes. But, of course, people who are (or think they are) in love do incredibly stupid things. Myself included, apparently.

[Grey Kitty]

The problem with having tickets to the show is that the outcome affects me so I sort of want to know how the plot's developing.

I've got the same !@#$!@# tickets, and yes, since it affects me, I go too.

My latest idea is to ask for the Reader's Digest or Cliff's Notes version, where I can skip a five days of the soap opera and get the "high points" once a week... .  

And holy crap am I bad at not knowing things - my curiosity and need for information is going to be the death of me. But it's like standing up part way through the show and yelling at the actors that they're idiots and don't they see how this is going to end and why are they DOING that?

I want to gently say "have you considered doing X instead" rather than standing up and yelling. But sure hasn't worked for me yet.  Perhaps I'm learning?

It still is crazy-making to see the stupid dysfunctional crap going on and on. I'm getting better at acknowledging I have next to no influence on it, whether I try or not.

Umm... .  yes. But, of course, people who are (or think they are) in love do incredibly stupid things. Myself included, apparently.

 Don't we all! 

[arabella]

Grey Kitty,

You literally made me  ! So thank you for that - I really needed it!

I'm considering asking for weekly email updates so that I can follow the plot without having to actually think about it on a daily basis. I definitely don't want to try to engage in an actual conversation. haha

I tried gently suggesting that perhaps this wasn't a healthy relationship. Yeah, no dice. I've finally come to a place where I just have nothing to say. It's too obvious and stupid to be worth commenting on. I think it's beneath me at this point. Seriously, it's ridiculous.

I'm trying hard to smarten up. Thank the powers that be for this forum - I'd have completely lost it by now without y'all! 

[nothinleft]

arabella,

Irregardless of some peoples similarities all are individuals. When a deep and genuine attraction creates a union between the two, a totally unique relationship dynamic occurs which is theirs only. On a very basic level we are fear driven (I'm not talking gun to the head fear, but fear of not being accepted, liked or rejected, etc.), and we bond for the needed security and trust that hopefully conquors those natural insecurities. Your admittedly "open relationship" and the comments about your BPDP's gf probably belies the existance of a flourishing pain body(The Power of Now by Ekhart Tolle) that you may be totally unaware of. Your basic security and trust could be eroded and the fears that were once kept in balance are now building that pain body. That is the way it works and that pain body can become a real monster, controling everything, as I so well found out  myself. Add that to dealing with a BPD, and no wonder you feel like your head might explode. I forget this alot, but BPDs do not think and comprehend life normally. No matter how many boundaries you set, how nice and loving you are or how theraputically correct your handling of the situation, they just don't respond appropriately, they react, and it most likely makes perfect sense to them with their totally "me" thinking. Please remember; I make no comment about your choices, just about what they may be doing to you. Although you have received many suggestions, I wanted to reply and return the kindness you have shown me in my dilemma... .  nothinleft

[Grey Kitty]

Grey Kitty,

You literally made me  ! So thank you for that - I really needed it!

You are so welcome. If all I accomplish is comic relief at a time of need, that's good enough for me

But seriously... .  you know you need to disengage and back away from your your partner's crap with his GF, and you know how to do it well enough. It could become a distraction from what seems more important:

So the most common advice seems to be to ignore a BPD partner who is in the midst of an episode (for lack of a better term). Do not rescue. But how do I know if I'm doing the right thing? It feels wrong to ignore someone who is depressed and the more I do my own thing the more he tells me that "see? there's nothing left of this relationship. we don't have sex. we don't even talk to each other!" But if I talk 'too much' or try to engage him he gets angry and overwhelmed. He could go entire days barely speaking and I have always been the one to pull him out of his shell (I'm a talker, he's a listener, it's always worked for us, and he likes my chatter when he's not dysregulated). So, as always, I can't win. And I'm not happy in this place. I feel like my head is going to explode. Oh, and I'm having to make a conscious effort not to: a) burst into tears all the time; and b) not start swearing at him for being such an asshat.

What does 'detaching with love' look like exactly? I need some help finding some balance. I must be doing it wrong?

To me detaching means unweaving the co-dependent enmeshed crap we threaded through the original love in our relationship. Recognizing the point where I end and my partner begins. Knowing that my partner will try to reach into the part which is "me" and yank on stuff, but I don't have to allow that. Recognizing that I have myself gone over that boundary and tried to control or influence her.

The love part is genuinely caring for my partner's wellbeing, wanting her to be happy. At times like you are in, it often takes the form of compassion--Whenever my partner was dysregulated, it was completely clear to me that while she was lashing out at me in harmful ways, she was lashing out at herself worse, and feeling some real pain and anguish. Probably feeling worse than I was. Seeing her hurt that much did help me find compassion.

Detaching with love is an attitude that I seek. It isn't an action, but it helps me take the right actions.

If my partner is dysregulated, I try to validate. I think this could work, but mostly, I'm either not good enough at it or start too late for it to work. In that case, my best bet is to go away before I say something that makes things worse. (i.e. burst into tears or start swearing)

The time to try really hard to validate is when you hear the first hint of discomfort. That is the time when you have a reasonable chance of heading off a full dysregulated episode.

The other time to validate is when things are good. A steady diet of validation seems to do wonders at keeping these episodes less frequent and shorter. (So does having a boundary of not staying to accept verbal abuse!)

I would say that detaching with love helps me deal with the silent treatment or other withdrawal by my partner. I can go off and do something that makes me happy for a while, then swing through with a smile and a gentle reminder that I am there, and available if they want to come back, and if not, leave them peacefully. I try to do this with hope, but without expectations.

[arabella]

nothinleft,

Thank you for your response - I appreciate any/all advice I can get! You are entirely correct btw. I'm aware of the pain and the festering insecurity and the erosion of trust. It's an open r/s but that doesn't mean it didn't have boundaries, and those boundaries needed to be enforced LONG ago... .  Now they're sort of laying in ruins around me. Generally I am accepting of the GFs, but even with situation aside, this one isn't very nice. I suspect she has NPD, based on her behaviour (not just as it relates to my situation). It makes it that much more difficult to sift through as she's actively manipulating multiple people for her own profit and entertainment. Thankfully she's out of the country and I don't deal with her directly (although maybe that would be easier?) Now I'm trying to figure out how to fix myself and detach from this mess without giving up on my r/s. It's confusing and mentally and emotionally exhausting.

Grey Kitty,

H seems to be calming down a little. He's less angry, not lashing out at me for the time being. Still definitely not 'normal' (even for him! haha) but some progress. I'm walking a line between being supportive and not pandering. I want him to feel better and know he's loved, but at the same time I know it's not appropriate to tolerate being treated like crap. So that's my conundrum. Another thread suggested just starting the separation, telling him I'm leaving, and then if he doesn't come around - just go. A 'tough love' approach to get through to the pwBPD. That approach makes me uncomfortable and, from what I gather, that's not what you would suggest? I like your description of detaching, that seems more my style.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm walking a line between being supportive and not pandering. I want him to feel better and know he's loved, but at the same time I know it's not appropriate to tolerate being treated like crap.

It is a tough line, and a whole series of decisions on which side you are on. I let my own mental state be my guide:

If I am feeling really good, I have a lot of compassion, I won't take the crap which is aimed at me personally. I can validate hurtful feelings and feel good about myself when I'm doing it. (I wish I was always like this!)

If I'm hurt, angry, confused, tired, depressed, hungry, irritable, or whatever... .  I may find that I've got the patience to put up with about 3 seconds of crap before I'm ready to argue, or even shout to make my point. Then I choose to remove myself from the situation QUICKLY. Sometimes the best I can do is say "If I stay here any longer I'll say something that I will regret. I'll be back later." as I'm walking out the door. (If you haven't read it yet, now is a good time to check out the lesson on taking a time out.)

It comes down to wanting him to feel better and know he's loved. When you are past your limit, your actions will do the opposite. So don't subject either yourself or him to that.

So that's my conundrum. Another thread suggested just starting the separation, telling him I'm leaving, and then if he doesn't come around - just go. A 'tough love' approach to get through to the pwBPD. That approach makes me uncomfortable and, from what I gather, that's not what you would suggest?

Absolutely NOT. If you speak about leaving you are likely to bring up the fear of abandonment in a pwBPD. It will shock him, but probably not "to his senses"

Even if he talks daily about leaving you, you will still make things worse if you bring it up once.

There are reasons to leave, and reasons to say you are leaving... .  but this isn't it!

[arabella]

Thank you, yet again, GK! (May I call you, GK?) I'm feeling rather validated by your most recent post here. I'm doing my best with care/compassion when I can, but sometimes I just don't have it in me and I'm walking out of the room. I've only got so much patience and resilience and those time outs are sorely needed sometimes (per my earlier comment re trying not cry or start cursing)!

And see? That's what I thought re the leaving! But others seemed to recommend it so I was doubting myself. I've been reassuring H that I am definitely NOT leaving, trying to help him to calm down, but that was part of the point of this thread - I was afraid I was messing it all up. If I leave it will be for my own health/sanity not because I'm trying to bully him with it. I think the other ppl were using it as a boundary - threaten to leave me and I WILL leave you. Which is fair, except that I don't have a boundary re his threatening to leave - either he means it (heartbreaking but fair enough) or he's a mess and doesn't really know what he's doing (then I just feel bad for him).

I feel better about my current pattern of action now! 

[arabella]

I should add, the others were also suggesting that reinforcing that I was staying would reward his threatening to leave. He has an emotional 'tantrum' and I soothe. He pushes, I chase. I can see that side of it too. But in this case I sort of think he just needs the specific support from me, it's not really a self-help sort of thing to need reassurance sometimes... .  Or am I just trying to convince my codependent 'helper' self?

[Grey Kitty]

Thank you, yet again, GK! (May I call you, GK?) I'm feeling rather validated by your most recent post here. I'm doing my best with care/compassion when I can, but sometimes I just don't have it in me ... .  

Sure, call me anything you want but don't call me late for dinner

Being gentle with yourself is the way to go--if you *try* to give more than you've got it is just worse for both of you!

And see? That's what I thought re the leaving! But others seemed to recommend it so I was doubting myself. I've been reassuring H that I am definitely NOT leaving, trying to help him to calm down, but that was part of the point of this thread - I was afraid I was messing it all up. If I leave it will be for my own health/sanity not because I'm trying to bully him with it. I think the other ppl were using it as a boundary - threaten to leave me and I WILL leave you. Which is fair, except that I don't have a boundary re his threatening to leave - either he means it (heartbreaking but fair enough) or he's a mess and doesn't really know what he's doing (then I just feel bad for him).

I feel better about my current pattern of action now! 

Yes, I think you've got it exactly right on regarding saying you would leave, and how to think about his threats to leave. I suspect it is the latter case of him being in a world of hurt.

Does the RESULT of your current plan of action feel good when you do it right?

As for the dynamic where he has a tantrum and you sooth... .  You are doing it at least 80%~90% right already. The big no-no is just sticking around and taking verbal abuse, especially if you are feeling hurt. Check. The big YES is validation--letting him know that he is heard and understood.

[laelle]

Back a few months ago I had a convo one day with my BPDbf because I was simply emotionally exhausted and I really resented him for his planting all his emotional insecurities, financial problems, unhappiness with life in general at my doorstop.  I had my own problems.  I spent those moments in tears, anger and bitterness.  He said them in a way that made me feel he was begging me to fix, but I just couldnt.

So I asked him.  "what do you want from me?  I cant fix any of those things."

He said that he didnt want me to do anything about them, its just the way he feels sometimes and just needs to say it.  I dont even have to respond if I dont want to.

I have learned much better ways of handling this particular convo, but I try to keep in mind when his mood gets black that he doesnt really want me to fix it even tho he seems to beg for it.  Its something that he is much happier about when he deals with it himself.

Its also nice that that I can say nothing at all and he gets it.  I am not always perfect at this, as I do sometimes try to make things better, but I dont bang my hang against the way trying to.

After all, if I could fix it for him it would only be a few days before he needed something else fixed, and something else. I could never fix it all and he would disrespect me for being his doormat.

Its a really strange thing to get.  They "seemingly" beg for help, and when you give it, they invalidate you for all your troubles.

When I leave the scene its never as a threat.  Its done in a way that says, things are hot and im only taking a break.  He needs that reassurance that the world will not fall in on us because of his anger, but that I do have to disconnect for a while.  To threaten would invalidate him and push all kinds of buttons.  I know you fear what he will do when you detach for a bit, but you just cant.  You have an emotional need to flee the scene and its a valid one.  Your needs matter too.  He wont like it at first, but he'll adjust and later it will even validate him.  He knows that you protect yourself from his rages, and that is one of his guilts after its all over, that he has damaged you and the relationship.  

From your post you are right on the money.  :)etaching with love is the defintion of

"I'm walking a line between being supportive and not pandering. I want him to feel better and know he's loved, but at the same time I know it's not appropriate to tolerate being treated like crap."

[arabella]

I have learned much better ways of handling this particular convo, but I try to keep in mind when his mood gets black that he doesnt really want me to fix it even tho he seems to beg for it.  Its something that he is much happier about when he deals with it himself.

Its a really strange thing to get.  They "seemingly" beg for help, and when you give it, they invalidate you for all your troubles.

... .    He knows that you protect yourself from his rages, and that is one of his guilts after its all over, that he has damaged you and the relationship. 

From your post you are right on the money.  Detaching with love is the defintion of

"I'm walking a line between being supportive and not pandering. I want him to feel better and know he's loved, but at the same time I know it's not appropriate to tolerate being treated like crap."

Thank you for this, laelle! You're right - my 'fixing' tends to blow up in my face. He doesn't like help and I think he finds a lot of my interference invalidating. This is an issue I need to deal with as I've come to realize that I have a lot of work to do on myself. I'm a 'rescuer' and it's not healthy for me or anyone else. I'm actually really embarrassed by some of my own previous poor behaviour now that I stop to look at it. Eek!

Your point about his feelings re damaging the relationship are also very accurate. Added in is the fact that when I'm volatile I tend to say things that I later regret. Of course, he never forgets and takes it all very personally no matter how much I try to explain or apologize. I need to avoid these no win situations. The escalation pattern that we've gotten into also feeds into his thinking that we're "not compatible". I need to stop it.

[arabella]

Does the RESULT of your current plan of action feel good when you do it right?

As for the dynamic where he has a tantrum and you sooth... .  You are doing it at least 80%~90% right already. The big no-no is just sticking around and taking verbal abuse, especially if you are feeling hurt. Check. The big YES is validation--letting him know that he is heard and understood.

My current plan feels the best to me. But I also know that sometimes my own issues give me a false sense of what is 'right' - so I've been questioning myself more than ever (I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing).

His verbal abuse is so... .  insidious. He doesn't rage. He doesn't go on long rants of berating me. I get the silent treatment and then a short, calm, succinct blurb about how we're incompatible, he doesn't love me anymore, etc. Then he'll just clam up again and I'm left reeling. So then I think I should respond. But, I hear you - THIS is the time to walk away and regroup rather than try to respond. I have to get this into my head and actually DO IT. And I think I need to formulate a response for next time (to be delivered after I calm down).

[Grey Kitty]

His verbal abuse is so... .  insidious. He doesn't rage. He doesn't go on long rants of berating me. I get the silent treatment and then a short, calm, succinct blurb about how we're incompatible, he doesn't love me anymore, etc. Then he'll just clam up again and I'm left reeling. So then I think I should respond. But, I hear you - THIS is the time to walk away and regroup rather than try to respond. I have to get this into my head and actually DO IT. And I think I need to formulate a response for next time (to be delivered after I calm down).

Yes, that sort of mostly silent rejection really is insidious. And it #$!@ hurts. And it is nearly impossible to explain to him or anybody else in words how hurtful it is. But at a non-verbal level, EVERYONE really does understand what is going on.

Having a plan to "get away" or even multiple plans for different circumstances is really helpful. When you are reeling, or ready to explode, it is really hard to do anything right. So if you don't have to *think* about what to do at those times, just execute what you've already decided to do, it is easier to get it right and not make things worse.