Superbowl meltdown

[Jessica84]

Went to his house to watch the game. He cooked and we had fun watching the pre-game show, commercials, first half, half time, 3rd Qtr... .When the Patriots scored in the 4th... .somehow this was all my fault  ?

I am a huge football fan and we were both rooting for Seattle. We high-fived each other, cheered, and occasionally got annoyed and said something to the TV. You know, sports talk... .we were both doing it. But once the Patriots took the lead, his mood changed.

I said something to the TV and this time he starts screaming for me to stop being negative and threatened to send me to the other room (where there's no TV) or to go home. Anything I said after that he screamed at me some more. I asked him to stop yelling, and he YELLED that he wasn't yelling! BE POSITIVE OR LEAVE! I stayed quiet the rest of the game. The last play saved me from his wrath - now he was mad at Seattle for blowing it.

I left after the game was over. He was much calmer by then. I should've left sooner, but I didn't want to miss the end. Still upset... .He texted me a few minutes ago that we're both tired and the game was stressful... .NO. The game was not stressful. Being yelled at was stressful. Idiot. 

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[garthaz]

I read a definition where they cannot see grey. Everything is black or white. It is either really good or really bad. They cannot see things as being slightly good or bad or just so-so. Yours definitely falls into that description.

Mine had a meltdown too, because I left her alone and went and watched the game with my son and granddaughter. She had already given me permission and she didn't want to go with me. All in a sudden as I was leaving, she went cold. When I came back she would have nothing to do with me and told me to leave her alone because she prefers to be by herself. So now we are on opposite sides of the house. At least you could leave and go home!

As you said . . . Idiot

[Jessica84]

My guess is yours felt abandoned even though she gave you permission to "abandon" her for a few hours.

So now you must be punished for your evil deed. 

Mine screamed at me as if I were doing voodoo to make his team lose. I didn't realize I had such magical powers. 

I suppose now I must be punished for MY evil deed. 

[garthaz]

I actually don't mind too much when the punishment is silence. It is just a little uncomfortable to be in the same house, but at least she isn't yelling at me. Did you call the Seahawks and tell them to pass?

In that case you deserve your punishment 

[Jessica84]

That was the worst call in the history of football!

And yes, I am responsible for that. Sorry 

[Notwendy]

Wow Jessica, that's pretty impressive that you can determine the fate of a football game. Some team should hire you.

[Cat Familiar]

Not being a sports fan (other than playing sports myself), I have no understanding how a grown man can get angry or depressed after his preferred team loses. 

To me, it's like watching paint dry, well maybe a bit more interesting. I had a cat that liked to watch basketball games on TV--I guess I'm kind of at that level--just watching the moving pixels on the screen.

I'd much rather be outside, enjoying this non-winter in Northern California with zero rain so far in January, usually our rainiest month.

[formflier]

He texted me a few minutes ago that we're both tired and the game was stressful... .NO. 

Hey... .this is something I am on high alert for... .from my wife.

I counter by asking her... .if she is asking if I was tired.

This is a boundary issue... .your feelings are yours.  Just because he says you were tired... .or claims it... .doesn't mean you are.

If he thinks you are tired... .he should ask... .express concern... .NOT make statements about what he doesn't know. 

Basically... I'm fighting mind reading...

[Notwendy]

If Jessica can predict the outcome of the Superbowl, surely her bf can read minds!

[garthaz]

If Jessica can predict the outcome of the Superbowl, surely her bf can read minds!

She not only predicted the Superbowl, she actually manipulated it, just like any Harry Potter character could.

[eyvindr]

You are all evil. That much is clear. 

On a lighter note, how about Katy Perry's Disney-On-Ice-On-Acid halftime show? Not much of a mainstream pop guy, but that was very creative. And props to Missy Elliott.

Ya know, they replayed that damned interception over and over again -- not ONCE did anyone suggest interference! Weird.

[formflier]

Ya know, they replayed that damned interception over and over again -- not ONCE did anyone suggest interference! Weird.

I initially wondered that... .but if I remember... both were staring at the ball.  I'm not a huge rules guy... .but I think that is the hitch... .if you are going for ball... .it's free game.

I could be wrong.

I thought it was funnier to watch the coach... .he knew he blew it... .and blew it bad.

I was leaning seahawks... but luckily was not a rabid fan... .otherwise I would be really ticked at him... .

[Jessica84]

I don't mind people getting angry or riled up over a game... sports fans are all nuts! It was the blaming, accusing and screaming at me for it that was out of whack. I didn't throw the ball, catch it, miss it, fumble it... .and I was pretty sure I couldn't control what happened on the field by making comments about it! 

Just in case... .I will try to use my powers for good and stop controlling sports teams telepathically 

I like that you found a boundary there formflier - didn't occur to me he was telling me I was tired, when I wasn't. But by the time I made it home, I wasn't interested in arguing the point via text. He called this morning like nothing happened. Good. Erasing it all from my mind too. Control-Alt-Delete!

[maxsterling]

I'm just glad I got to watch the game.  I let her know a week beforehand that I planned to watch the game out.  She seemed to have no problem with that.   Then Sunday morning she told me to relax and not do anything, this after I told her how stressed out I was.  SO, I painted, went for a long walk, planned on doing a little work on my resume, and then out to the game. She invited a friend over for dinner.  All good!  Nope, the meltdown an hour and a half before the game (complete panic attack nervous breakdown) because she didn't know what food to fix for her friend (really was probably more about abandonment and me being elsewhere).  I wound up making food that she could just heat up for her friend while she took xanax.  (yeah I know don't do for others what they can reasonably do for themselves, but lately I actually think she is not capable of feeding herself - seriously).  As soon as the food was done, I left for the game.  Had a great time, came home and wife and friends were relaxed and thankful.  Then as we were laying down to bed, the comment how she doesn't want me to watch a game at a bar anymore.  Then this morning about how she doesn't have any time to help me with anything and that I am being lazy and incapable of applying for a new job.

And she wants to know a good reason to not try and have kids right now.   

[eyvindr]

Aw, Max, man. Good lord. Imagine how hilarious her behaviors would appear to audiences if she were a character in a sit-com. Hang in there.

[formflier]

I like that you found a boundary there formflier - didn't occur to me he was telling me I was tired, when I wasn't.

Whatever you can do to slay mindreading... .is a huge help... .

I make it a pain in the rear for my wife to do anything other than ask... ."how are you feeling... ."  (at which point I will happily tell her)

But... ."hey... since you are mad... ." (conversation ends... .and I dominate it by asking if she was asking... ."I'm confused how you know my emotions... .since we haven't discussed them... ."... .etc etc

[eyvindr]

formflier --

Not proud of this, but in the last year of my r-ship, I had pretty much zero tolerance for that kind of talk. My ex's go-to PA assumptions:

• I can tell you're busy right now.



• I know you must be tired after such a long day.



• I already know what you're going to say so I don't even think I should ask you this.

Another fave -- before she would even tell me what I was going to react to, she would prompt the statement with -- "Now, don't worry -- I know you won't want to do this, so don't feel like you have to -- I already know I'm going to have to do it alone."           

I reached the point where I would interrupt before she finished, and say -- "ok, talk to you later." I seriously have NO patience with that kind of high-school communication BS. I don't take it from my bosses, my colleagues, my friends or my relatives -- certainly wasn't going to put up with it from the primary person in my life. Wonder if she'll ever figure out that it was one of the main reasons I left her -- inability to ever have a simple conversation.

[formflier]

I reached the point where I would interrupt before she finished, and say -- "ok, talk to you later." 

I think you should be proud to say that!

If she gets mad... .then it's time for a help me to understand... .if you already know how I will react... why you want to have the conversation... .?   

In my r/s... .I have the genius opportunity of openly talking about invalidation and validation.  My wife brought it up... .we have promised not to invalidate each other.

I don't do it to her...

So... .she shouldn't do it to me... .she is starting to understand that "mind reading"... is invalidating... .if you get it wrong... .which she almost always does...

[eyvindr]

Well, she'd argue that, as usual, I was "sweating the small stuff" and "making a mountain out of a molehill." In essence, diminishing and invalidating my legitimate need to be able to have a mature conversation with my partner. Funny how we can't even think about disagreeing with even the smallest thing they tell us, regardless of how absurd or unfounded it may be, without the risk of sending them into a psychic tailspin of epic proportions -- but they can pretty much dismiss anything we say, feel, think, want, hope for, etc.

But, for argument's sake -- let's go ahead and call this expectation for smooth communication a completely selfish need on my part. (to clarify, i don't really believe that)

I. Don't. Care.

It's what I WANT. What I don't want, and won't accept, from anyone, is being told how to think, what I feel, what I should say and what choices I should make. Eff all of that forever.

[Jessica84]

He is horrible at reading my mind. When he thinks I'm mad, I'm not. When he thinks I'm not mad, I am.

I on the other hand am expected to read his mind at all times. God forbid I get it wrong (which of course I have), but asking him doesn't get me anywhere either. Especially hard to mind-read when he who goes from 0-60 on the what the heck scale.

He brought up the Superbowl again last night. 

Said he was superstitious and my comments were helping the Patriots score. Wow. Really?

I'm not so sure any amount of "help me understand" would help me understand that one!

[Cat Familiar]

Funny how we can't even think about disagreeing with even the smallest thing they tell us, regardless of how absurd or unfounded it may be, without the risk of sending them into a psychic tailspin of epic proportions -- but they can pretty much dismiss anything we say, feel, think, want, hope for, etc.

So true!

[123Phoebe]

I like that you found a boundary there formflier - didn't occur to me he was telling me I was tired, when I wasn't.

Whatever you can do to slay mindreading... .is a huge help... .

I make it a pain in the rear for my wife to do anything other than ask... ."how are you feeling... ."  (at which point I will happily tell her)

But... ."hey... since you are mad... ." (conversation ends... .and I dominate it by asking if she was asking... ."I'm confused how you know my emotions... .since we haven't discussed them... ."... .etc etc

formflier --

Another fave -- before she would even tell me what I was going to react to, she would prompt the statement with -- "Now, don't worry -- I know you won't want to do this, so don't feel like you have to -- I already know I'm going to have to do it alone."           

I reached the point where I would interrupt before she finished, and say -- "ok, talk to you later."

I reached the point where I would interrupt before she finished, and say -- "ok, talk to you later." 

I think you should be proud to say that!

If she gets mad... .then it's time for a help me to understand... .if you already know how I will react... why you want to have the conversation... .?   

In my r/s... .I have the genius opportunity of openly talking about invalidation and validation.  My wife brought it up... .we have promised not to invalidate each other.

I don't do it to her...

So... .she shouldn't do it to me... .she is starting to understand that "mind reading"... is invalidating... .if you get it wrong... .which she almost always does...

So, this way of communicating with your partners is validating, how?  Has it brought you closer together?

[formflier]

So, this way of communicating with your partners is validating, how?  Has it brought you closer together?

I think you are asking me... correct? 

I think the primary goal is to be much less "invalidating" to me.  Once I started paying attention to it... .I was amazed at how triggering it was for me to be told I was mad... .when I wasn't.

The focus on our MC has been on understanding each other emotions... .tough for pwBPD traits... .because they have to acknowledge that other people have different points of view.

I can tell that she tries much less now to tell me how I feel... .

That makes me feel better.

I try to ask her how she is feeling... and validate that.

I think what has brought us closer together is the lessening of conflict.

The ability to have some normal or semi normal conversations.

Still... .lots of work to do... .

[Cat Familiar]

My husband will also accuse me of being angry when it's absolutely not the case. And he will then insist that I am, which ultimately results in, wait for it... .me being angry! Then he argues that he was right all along!  

[formflier]

My husband will also accuse me of being angry when it's absolutely not the case. And he will then insist that I am, which ultimately results in, wait for it... .me being angry! Then he argues that he was right all along!  

I know change this... and get calmer... .more relaxed... .it really p$sses my wife off.

[Cat Familiar]

My husband will also accuse me of being angry when it's absolutely not the case. And he will then insist that I am, which ultimately results in, wait for it... .me being angry! Then he argues that he was right all along!  

I know change this... and get calmer... .more relaxed... .it really p$sses my wife off.

I'm generally so easygoing and mellow, if I was any more relaxed, I'd be comatose. But it's infuriating being told how I feel by someone who doesn't know how he feels (at least this is his typical answer when I ask for detail beyond "bad". I used to think he was hiding, but now I really think he doesn't know.)

So, yes, I need to get rid of this trigger and calmly reply, like you do, Formflier, "so interesting that you know how I feel without me telling you."

[eyvindr]

Phoebe --

Fair question --

So, this way of communicating with your partners is validating, how?  Has it brought you closer together?

It's not validating, nor is it intended to be. There's a limit to validation, beyond which we're all just puppets in someone else's passion play. Just my opinion -- we're all different, in terms of what we want from our r-ships and expect from our partners. I want to be able to talk to my partner without having to run every single thought I have through some kind of translation filter which, to me, makes the interaction with her feel completely unnatural. Wasn't possible, so I left.

Cat Familiar -- I laughed out loud when I read "if I was any more relaxed, I'd be comatose" -- I totally relate. If anything, I'm more often described as stoic, droll -- even "inscrutable" -- and I actively try to be more emotive to overcome those traits, because they seem to confuse people.

But, like you -- I draw the line at being "told how I feel by someone who doesn't know how [s/he] feels." Not saying it's right or wrong -- only that it's who I am, and it's a part of my personality that I'm comfortable with, and not really interested in changing. What that means is that I'm not the right partner for someone wBPD. I can accept that. I said as much to my ex, many times over the three years that we tried to make things work -- and every time, she argued that I needed to change in order for her to feel valued in the relationship.

You know, I get it. I've heard it enough, and wrestled with it enough -- I get it.

But -- what about what I need? Where do my preferences, needs, expectations, dreams, etc. get factored into any of this?

In my case, I concluded that, with my ex, they didn't, and wouldn't ever. That me, my life, my wellness, success, interests, friendships, plans, dreams -- all of it -- would never be on the same level with my partner's. They -- and me -- would always be secondary. I want equal. I wasn't getting it, and wasn't going to get it, and no amount of avoiding JADEing or using SET was ever going to change that. So I got the message, and I left. Because it was my choice to make.

[Cat Familiar]

There's a limit to validation, beyond which we're all just puppets in someone else's passion play... I want to be able to talk to my partner without having to run every single thought I have through some kind of translation filter which, to me, makes the interaction with her feel completely unnatural... .I'm more often described as stoic, droll -- even "inscrutable" -- and I actively try to be more emotive to overcome those traits, because they seem to confuse people... .I draw the line at being "told how I feel by someone who doesn't know how [s/he] feels."... what about what I need? Where do my preferences, needs, expectations, dreams, etc. get factored into any of this?

Yes!

As much as the tools have helped me to stop making things worse, I've become much more aware of my part in the drama. It would really be nice to have a part in a comedy once in a while!

I've gotten away from the "it's unfair" and "why me" thinking and realize that there are benefits to this relationship as well as a price to pay. It's really sad that the price includes lack of spontaneity, rigorous self-analysis, tolerance of excessive self-pitying behavior, and in general, knowing that my husband is damaged goods and unlikely to change.

[123Phoebe]

In my case, I concluded that, with my ex, they didn't, and wouldn't ever. That me, my life, my wellness, success, interests, friendships, plans, dreams -- all of it -- would never be on the same level with my partner's. They -- and me -- would always be secondary. I want equal. I wasn't getting it, and wasn't going to get it, and no amount of avoiding JADEing or using SET was ever going to change that. So I got the message, and I left. Because it was my choice to make.

eyvindr, it absolutely was your choice to make and you made it, you left.  I'm hoping that you have a sense of freedom from making that choice.

My husband will also accuse me of being angry when it's absolutely not the case. And he will then insist that I am, which ultimately results in, wait for it... .me being angry! Then he argues that he was right all along!  

I know change this... and get calmer... .more relaxed... .it really p$sses my wife off.

Formflier, is the goal to pi$$ off your wife?  I'm assuming not and that her getting pi$$ed is a byproduct of your calm, relaxed manner... .  The way it reads though, is that your change in behavior isn't so much about you or bettering the "relationship", as much as it is to get some sort of reaction from your wife, be it good bad or ugly.  Even though I don't believe that to be your intention.  What I'm wondering, is if she's not picking up on this, too?  Are you really feeling more relaxed, or simply playing the part of being calm and relaxed?  This stuff matters!  Otherwise, we're coming off as disingenuous and untrustworthy.

If you're mad, be mad!  Sad, cry!  Frustrated, tell her!  "I feel frustrated being told what I'm feeling, please stop!"

I like that you found a boundary there formflier - didn't occur to me he was telling me I was tired, when I wasn't.

Whatever you can do to slay mindreading... .is a huge help... .

I make it a pain in the rear for my wife to do anything other than ask... ."how are you feeling... ."  (at which point I will happily tell her)

But... ."hey... since you are mad... ." (conversation ends... .and I dominate it by asking if she was asking... ."I'm confused how you know my emotions... .since we haven't discussed them... ."... .etc etc

To me, this is trying to get her to change, by making it a pain in her rear to do anything other than ask... ."how are you feeling?... ."

The focus is on her, on getting her to change and it's coming off as being defensive.  How about just stating your truth?  How do you think it would it go over if you were to say, "I'm going to make it a pain in the rear for you to do anything other than ask, "How are you feeling?"

Imaging saying that to her... .  That's essentially what you're saying to her.  Does it sound controlling?

How about, "It's a pain in my rear being told what I'm feeling."

Less controlling?

"I feel frustrated being told what I'm feeling, please stop."

Even less?

I'm all about bringing us closer together, common ground, less conflict.  The main thing bf and I have in common is that we're separate people, with our very own thoughts and feelings; we respect and accept that about each other.

[eyvindr]

Phoebe --

Wanted to let you know that I think you are making terrific suggestions here, and I appreciate everything you add to this discussion. These are the "Staying" boards, after all -- and anyone who chooses to try to improve their relationships will benefit from learning these techniques. I have no doubt about that.

I did utilize a lot of these techniques in my r-ship. Sadly for me, I didn't see enough improvement. In my case, I didn't feel like the additional energy, focus and re-commitment that I made to improving how I communicated with my ex was warranted, because any improvements were nominal and temporary. It was very disappointing.

This is the way to do it, though. I admittedly don't have the stamina -- or, rather, the desire for this kind of relationship. It felt too much like I was always playing the role of counselor/role model. I wanted a partner, not a patient. Not saying that's how everyone's situation is at all -- but that's how I felt in the end. Which wasn't fair to either of us, so I made a decision to leave.

[123Phoebe]

Phoebe --

Wanted to let you know that I think you are making terrific suggestions here, and I appreciate everything you add to this discussion. These are the "Staying" boards, after all -- and anyone who chooses to try to improve their relationships will benefit from learning these techniques. I have no doubt about that.

I did utilize a lot of these techniques in my r-ship. Sadly for me, I didn't see enough improvement. In my case, I didn't feel like the additional energy, focus and re-commitment that I made to improving how I communicated with my ex was warranted, because any improvements were nominal and temporary. It was very disappointing.

This is the way to do it, though. I admittedly don't have the stamina -- or, rather, the desire for this kind of relationship. It felt too much like I was always playing the role of counselor/role model. I wanted a partner, not a patient. Not saying that's how everyone's situation is at all -- but that's how I felt in the end. Which wasn't fair to either of us, so I made a decision to leave.

eyvindr, sounds like you made the right decision for you  I felt and sang(!) "Freedom" (Aretha Franklin), when the house was signed over in my name after divorcing exh (bought him out of the house).

What I have found so interesting through all of this, is that very rarely do I even have to speak in a way bf "hopefully understands", or use the tools or whatever.  When the going has gotten tough, I've used them and they work!  Because I mean what I say when I'm talking to him, speaking with my values backing up my words.  He knows what I'm all about.  I'm not psych-speaking him on any sort of regular basis Don't have to  Nor does he  We're pretty darned open and comfy with each other.

I want the members here to feel happy!  Find some goodness in their relationships!  I wasn't finding any of the good stuff when my main focus was on what he wasn't doing for me... .

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

Formflier, is the goal to pi$$ off your wife?  I'm assuming not and that her getting pi$$ed is a byproduct of your calm, relaxed manner... .  The way it reads though, is that your change in behavior isn't so much about you or bettering the "relationship", as much as it is to get some sort of reaction from your wife, be it good bad or ugly.  Even though I don't believe that to be your intention.  What I'm wondering, is if she's not picking up on this, too?  Are you really feeling more relaxed, or simply playing the part of being calm and relaxed?  This stuff matters!  Otherwise, we're coming off as disingenuous and untrustworthy.

I'll never know exactly why it pisses her off... .but my assumption is that "enforcing" healthy behavior... .healthy conversation styles... .or not participating in those is frustrating her. 

Now that I have been doing this more... .and been consistent... .and it has been going on for a while... it seems much less like "p$ssed off" and more like "frustration"... .

For my r/s... my wife... .the more direct ways of making a point are far less effective.  Don't know why... .I would rather be direct... .

So... .for me... ."It seems like you believe you can read my mind... ."... .would be pretty close to a dysreg... or a stepping stone to that.  "It frustrates me that you tell me my emotions... "  will usually bring a nasty retort... ."I know them better than you... ."  Basically a ploy to draw me into a fight.  I've tried it several times... .or variations... .and it doesn't work.

My wife seems to be very susceptible to "let the questions convict you... ."  It is a much more roundabout way of doing things... .but... .it removes me from suggesting the answer... .allows me to talk less... .plus... .it allows me to listen for emotions to validate.  Easier when there is less talking from me and more from her.

We have a history of having very "unclear" conversations... .this is also a part of that. 

So... examples... .my wife will tell me ... "don't do this... .don't do that... ."

And... when I ask her what she wants me "to do"... .she will say she just told me... .if I say anything like "no you didn't... "... it's on... .

"help me understand what you want me to do... ."... keeps it calmer

or variations on help me understand.

Here's is where I get a bit harsh... .it came across in the last post... .it is... what it is.

I will have emotionally healthy conversations... .we will not tell each other what the other is feeling... I will drive all conversations in that direction.  Period... . 

If that makes my wife happy and glad... .fine.  If it makes her mad... .fine.

I firmly believe that further improvement in our r/s is possible... .and I'm keeping the momentum going.

Even more genius... is this is "her idea... "... .she is one that brought up invalidation and we need to eliminate it from our r/s...

So... she hasn't been able to successfully stick the "you don't listen to my ideas thing... " in a while

Yeah... .I get it that it sounds a bit harsh... .and I do have a bit of an off brand of humor about it... .it helps me get through it.

Hope this helps everyone understand... .also... .note that this may not work in your r/s... .just because it works in mine.  BPD is a spectrum... .

[Jessica84]

Yep. Not every technique works. I've tried some that made things much worse, and others that had no effect at all. Depends on the people in the r/s and the spectrum. There really isn't a magic formula... .but FF's methods happen to work brilliantly for me. No idea why. Maybe my bf is similar to ff's wife? Or I'm similar to ff? All I know is when I apply them, both of us are less triggered and even triggered moments calm down quicker. I was glad when I finally stopped making things worse. Honestly, I never expected things to actually improve... It's... .weird? It's... .working?

Today I was upset about something that happened at work. He said "I wouldn't worry about it." (dismissive) But then he surprised me by adding "But just bc I wouldn't be upset doesn't mean you aren't, so I'm sorry you feel that way." WOW! Validation... for me?

[Cat Familiar]

For my r/s... my wife... .the more direct ways of making a point are far less effective.  Don't know why... .I would rather be direct... .

So... .for me... ."It seems like you believe you can read my mind... ."... .would be pretty close to a dysreg... or a stepping stone to that.  "It frustrates me that you tell me my emotions... "  will usually bring a nasty retort... ."I know them better than you... ."  Basically a ploy to draw me into a fight.  I've tried it several times... .or variations... .and it doesn't work.

My wife seems to be very susceptible to "let the questions convict you... ."  It is a much more roundabout way of doing things... .but... .it removes me from suggesting the answer... .allows me to talk less... .plus... .it allows me to listen for emotions to validate.  Easier when there is less talking from me and more from her.

We have a history of having very "unclear" conversations... .this is also a part of that. 

So... examples... .my wife will tell me ... "don't do this... .don't do that... ."

And... when I ask her what she wants me "to do"... .she will say she just told me... .if I say anything like "no you didn't... "... it's on... .

"help me understand what you want me to do... ."... keeps it calmer

or variations on help me understand.

Here's is where I get a bit harsh... .it came across in the last post... .it is... what it is.

I will have emotionally healthy conversations... .we will not tell each other what the other is feeling... I will drive all conversations in that direction.  Period... . 

If that makes my wife happy and glad... .fine.  If it makes her mad... .fine.

I firmly believe that further improvement in our r/s is possible... .and I'm keeping the momentum going.

Even more genius... is this is "her idea... "... .she is one that brought up invalidation and we need to eliminate it from our r/s...

So... she hasn't been able to successfully stick the "you don't listen to my ideas thing... " in a while

Yeah... .I get it that it sounds a bit harsh... .and I do have a bit of an off brand of humor about it... .it helps me get through it.

Hope this helps everyone understand... .also... .note that this may not work in your r/s... .just because it works in mine.  BPD is a spectrum... .

This is very helpful. I tend to be very direct and that doesn't at all work with my husband. If he gets agitated, he becomes argumentative and then the "district attorney" part of his personality comes to the forefront. (I keep telling myself that getting into an argument with an attorney is a losing proposition. Fortunately, since I've discovered this board, I haven't done that.)

I love the "let the questions convict you." A former boyfriend once told me, "Whoever asks the questions, controls the conversation." I think I need to tattoo that on my wrist.

[EaglesJuju]

Yep. Not every technique works. I've tried some that made things much worse, and others that had no effect at all. Depends on the people in the r/s and the spectrum. There really isn't a magic formula... .but FF's methods happen to work brilliantly for me. No idea why. Maybe my bf is similar to ff's wife? Or I'm similar to ff? All I know is when I apply them, both of us are less triggered and even triggered moments calm down quicker. I was glad when I finally stopped making things worse. Honestly, I never expected things to actually improve... It's... .weird? It's... .working?

I think this is a great point. It is almost like "trial and error" with our pwBPD, trying to find what works for both people in the relationship. FF's "no nonsense" methods have worked for me as well.

[Jessica84]

Yep. Not every technique works. I've tried some that made things much worse, and others that had no effect at all. Depends on the people in the r/s and the spectrum. There really isn't a magic formula... .but FF's methods happen to work brilliantly for me. No idea why. Maybe my bf is similar to ff's wife? Or I'm similar to ff? All I know is when I apply them, both of us are less triggered and even triggered moments calm down quicker. I was glad when I finally stopped making things worse. Honestly, I never expected things to actually improve... It's... .weird? It's... .working?

I think this is a great point. It is almost like "trial and error" with our pwBPD, trying to find what works for both people in the relationship. FF's "no nonsense" methods have worked for me as well.

He got hysterically emotional one time when my computer crashed a few months ago. A virus ate up most of my files, even my backup drive. I was completely dysregulated, frustrated, angry - nothing to do with him. He hadn't touched my computer.

He starts flooding me with strange apologies about how he was a bad man and the cause of all my troubles. What the... .? I was in no mood to deal with his "issues".

So I employed the FF Method (well, sort of)...

"Help me understand how you caused my computer to get a virus... did you cough on it?"

I know using sarcasm would go against everything in the BPD toolbox... .but... .it worked. He was quite supportive after that. What I wanted to say was "it's not about YOU!"

[eyvindr]

Often in life, humor can be very effective at breaking the tension and shifting the dynamic to something less intense.

In Bippiddee Land, I think sometimes it can work -- but it's much more relative (to the situation, their mood, level of dysregulation, etc.).

And sarcasm, as most of us seem to know, can be funny -- I tend to think it is. But I've learned that not only am I not the norm on that, also lots of people interpret it as hostile -- which wasn't anything I was aware of until it was explained to me. There's a pretty wide chasm in my world between humor and hostility -- I don't think I confuse the two at all, when I'm on the receiving end of sarcasm. But, I could see where someone might associate sarcasm with hostility, in a triggering sense.

The bigger issue may be that in pwBPD sarcasm might cause confusion by jarring with their tendency towards B&W thinking -- if it "sounds" negative, they could "feel" it as negative, and that could trigger them.

All a bunch of invisible emotional landmines that I don't want to have to worry about with a romantic partner. If we don't "get" each others senses of humor, it's pretty much a deal-breaker -- not in a someone's wrong sense, but it goes to fundamental compatibility.

[Cat Familiar]

He got hysterically emotional one time when my computer crashed a few months ago. A virus ate up most of my files, even my backup drive. I was completely dysregulated, frustrated, angry - nothing to do with him. He hadn't touched my computer.

He starts flooding me with strange apologies about how he was a bad man and the cause of all my troubles. What the... .? I was in no mood to deal with his "issues".

So I employed the FF Method (well, sort of)...

"Help me understand how you caused my computer to get a virus... did you cough on it?"

I know using sarcasm would go against everything in the BPD toolbox... .but... .it worked. He was quite supportive after that. What I wanted to say was "it's not about YOU!"

That's a hilarious example of the magical thinking they do. My H "took responsibility" for my backing into the garage door because the edge of my cowboy hat hit the garage door controller clipped to the sun visor and the door started lowering without my awareness.  

[Jessica84]

Eyvindr - I so agree. Generally our senses of humor are compatible. But in a triggered state, not so much. Unless I add a "help me understand" in front of it. No idea why?

In the wrong state of mind, he can sometimes interpret sarcasm as hostility. And other times, he will interpret genuine statements as sarcasm. I once complimented him on a big goal he accomplished at work, and he blew up.

I SAID:  "Great job!"

I MEANT "Great job!"

He HEARD: "way to go, loser"

I was baffled. Didn't know about BPD back then. Had no idea why he took it that way? How had I invalidated him? Looking back at the incident, I now know of all the "mistakes" he think he made and how he felt he screwed it up completely... .He really didn't, but felt he did... .so my compliment was the opposite of how he felt, and taken as sarcasm. Sigh. Now I let him talk so I can hear all the details first. Being mindful also helps. I've noticed he is far less triggered by what I say now. And doesn't go nuts when I'm sarcastic. I get to be me again, only a more mindful me! 

[formflier]

But in a triggered state, not so much. 

The point about them hearing different things... when triggered... .is oh so true.

Yeah... so... about a week ago... .wife comes into room and wants to have a conversation about our oldest daughter... has been a trigger point for along time.

So... I'm on my best game.

I can't go word for word... .but my wife says...

w :"If FF daughter really believes this... then I am really disappointed in her"

ff:  "I totally agree... .if ff daughter really believes that then I am disappointed in her as well... .I agree with what you are saying... "

there is a little more chit chat... and then she grumps about my "if ff daughter believes that comments" and storms out of room.

I went down to talk about it later... and she claimed I didn't agree with her... .

I tried not to laugh...

I think she quickly realized she was looking like an idiot... .and changed the subject... .I let it drop...

Sigh... .we could call it "BPD ears"