Response, how do I handle not in-person attacks (take 2)

[UBPDHelp]

  I hope it is okay to start a new thread as I’m having a hard time paging through the other because it got so long.

Here is the link to it: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342689.0

So, I think I just messed up.  We had an okay night, but I was kind of still down and tired from the rages so just pleasantly went to bed. Nothing unusual.

He stayed up super late.  He likes to stay up late but even for him it was late.

So because even though he sulked for a bit he sort of popped into “normal” behavior and didn’t being anything up, I thought I would try to redirect to plans we have coming up (partially because final plans HAVE to be made).

I kept it light and positive.  First I tried to call but no answer (he has meetings a lot so hard to tell if busy or ignoring).  So I sent a very short message.

I hear nothing. Then an hour or so later another scathing message. Worse and longer than before. Abs9lute rage with all caps and a ton of misspellings and insults. And several examples why I’m a horrible person.

Then, followed by, Read every word again.

He won’t answer his phone so my only chance to communicate is via message or not at all.

Do I:

1. Not reply
2. Reply that I read it (validation) and then “I know this is upsetting (slightly concerned he will feel I am “diminishing” it) and I’d like to help, but we have discussed all of this before and I have acknowledged that I have read and heard you.  I am feeling attacked and I don’t like to be spoken to this way. I need to clear my head for a bit so we can finally move past this.”

I believe he will be very mad about saying I feel attacked because he’ll think I deserve it. Is that okay or can I avoid it with some other language?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ozzie101]

It doesn't sound like you "messed up" there. He seemed to have returned to baseline, you went about as normal.

I need to think a bit before giving advice on what to do here and I hope others will jump in. My initial instinct would be to not respond. But, what do you anticipate his response to your lack of response would be?

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Ozzie,

I just want to express my gratitude that you and everyone on here have stuck through this with me. 

I think he may come home and sulk or just pretend that nothing happened. 

I think he will keep sending messages. It is honestly so bizarre — I suspect that the changes in his career that are coming are upsetting him far more than I imagined.  The bizarre is that he seems to have these messages typed up and saved somewhere to send.  They are so long, so full of rage and mistruths (I have tried to correct these (I’ve heard most before) but he will not have it). He puts motive behind my actions (some of the actions never happened, let alone any kind of motive behind them) and he is now doing the same to family members regarding my bf.  Like my parents were okay with me being a slut, etc. 

I have told him I don’t want to discuss anymore (maybe should be I won’t?) when we’ve spoken in person.

I just feel it’s hard to not say stop but also don’t want make it worse.

I’m okay with ignoring and waiting it out.  Fun, though he’s still mad I’m not trying to have sex with him. Are you for real?  Also, you probably gathered this, but I do think sex is a way he soothes himself.

I also would be remiss if I didn’t say (and have been so unhappy that I don’t think I have anywhere), when he is not dysregulating he is very fun, charming, entertaining. He is not very PDA ever and is very concerned with how we all are perceived by others despite stating he doesn’t care what anyone thinks. But he does have good sides, fewer and farther between these days, it just makes it harder. If he didn’t, I think I wouldn’t have been so confused and would have left a long time ago.

Please do share your thoughts when ready. Thank you!

[Ozzie101]

If you don't think it could bring on a massive dysregulations that could jeopardize your safety, I would be inclined to not respond. Again, someone with more wisdom than I possess may have more or better advice there.

And I think it's fine to say you "won't " discuss it anymore. It's firmer language.

[Harri]

Hi there!

So because even though he sulked for a bit he sort of popped into “normal” behavior and didn’t being anything up, I thought I would try to redirect to plans we have coming up (partially because final plans HAVE to be made).

I don't think you messed up either.  Things will come up and you will need to discuss them.  If he chooses to get back at you by ignoring you or then reverting to a rage text, that does not mean you messed up.  As you change your responses to him he will probably get worse (like he did) before he gets better or learns you will not respond to his texts or his unreasonable demands (that you acknowledge you read his text).

Do I:

1. Not reply
2. Reply that I read it (validation) and then “I know this is upsetting (slightly concerned he will feel I am “diminishing” it) and I’d like to help, but we have discussed all of this before and I have acknowledged that I have read and heard you.  I am feeling attacked and I don’t like to be spoken to this way. I need to clear my head for a bit so we can finally move past this.”

I believe he will be very mad about saying I feel attacked because he’ll think I deserve it. Is that okay or can I avoid it with some other language?

I would not reply.  Option #2 will serve to reinforce his belief that he has the right to make those sorts of demands.  I don't see you responding with a 'yes' as validating the valid, it validates the invalid, or at least reinforces it.

You can re-word anything if you feel like he will get angry with 'I feel attacked'.  The thing is, once a person is in a rage like he gets into there is little you can say to calm them and it is often best to protect yourself with boundaries.  Not responding to texts can be a boundary.  You can say, in a time when he is calm, that you will not respond to those texts anymore.  Let him know by making it clear and then follow what you say, being careful not to get into intermittent reinforcement.  

Is that okay or can I avoid it with some other language?

I may be taking you too literally here so forgive me if this comes off as a lecture please:  It is great to try to temper your words and message but not to the point of accepting abuse and engaging in power struggles and unfair demands.  

I am going to link the article on Taking a time out again so you can have it referenced in this thread as well.  There are parts to it that I think will help you.  The whole thread is excellent but I especially like reply #4.  Here (below) are some excerpts from a post by united for now, a retired moderator who once also posted on this board:  

Their goal is to keep the argument going, since they are getting a release from it. Sticking around and listening to them communicates that you can be controlled and that they can do whatever they want to you. It reinforces the belief that they have the power, that you are weak and helpless. It guarantees that they won’t respect you - ever.
...

To reduce any blame and to try to avoid triggering further shame, it helps to come from a place of love and concern, to let them know “that I really want to hear what is in your heart and mind, but that I need to feel safe and respected in the process. Right now I don't feel that way, so I'm going to take a time out to allow both of us to calm down. We can try again later." It is even better if you discuss your plans ahead of time, during a calm moment. That way they won't be so surprised. I know we never want to deliberately mess up the good times, but think of it as taking one step backwards to go two forward... .
...

Now that I'm away, how do I deal with this feeling that I didn't do the right thing? Well, that feeling comes from breaking a conditioned response. You aren’t following their lead or allowing them to control you. Yes, there is uncertainty around this. Yes, they may become even angrier at you. That doesn’t change the  it is a very important step towards taking care of YOUR needs for once. If you believe in yourself, then you will be ok. They need to accept that verbally abusing you isn't ok, that from now on you will take care of yourself by taking a time out. If done in a loving fashion each and every time they become mean, they will eventually come to accept that you won't tolerate it anymore, and they will change their behavior. If they want to be heard, which they do, then they'll learn they can't yell at you. It will become worse before it gets better, remember the old extinction burst, but it should get easier to do and reduce the hurt.

Does any of that help?

[UBPDHelp]

Thanks Ozzie...I think he will probably rage text for a while (over days) but I do think he may eventually give up.

I think it’s my mindset here that needs to change.

And Harri, thank you. I think by sometimes responding with defense has obviously JADEd, but also intermittently reinforced getting a release from this topic.

He does try to bait me into talking about it. I definitely need refusal to discuss as a boundary.  I wouldn’t do this if I felt there was actually something he needed, but it’s been microscopically dissected at this point. I simply won’t do it.

My only fear is I am nowhere near mastering when to validate, set a boundary, or take a time out vs a combo. This is my job to learn and figure out.

So, definite boundaries and no IR for me.

I think I may have to take a 100 time outs to figure out how to respond and avoid IR. Think I mentioned I’m not too quick on my feet.

For instance, the catch 22. Don’t respond (no IR), then accused of not caring. Need to not respond with setting boundary, right? Validate feeling, empathize, state my truth. 

Fingers crossed!

[UBPDHelp]

One quick question Harri,

So in this weird text rage, is letting time go by without responding and then texting something off topic IR? 

Or only if it’s a response to his rage message?

I don’t have to text (definitely not replying to rant) but something came up that I would normally text about and needs to addressed. I can do myself, but that might annoy him, on the other hand, he kind of lost the right to weigh in.

I’m okay with taking the heat but my main concern is not IR...and when is it okay to return to “normal”?  Only when he demonstrates that he has?

I hope that makes sense!  I feel like I’m micro managing, but also know this is a point of change for better or worse.

[UBPDHelp]

And now he’s home but not coming out of our room (not usual, why would it be?).

Normally would go talk to him or if I knew he was annoyed, try to get him to come out.

Not doing anything tonight.  Is that what I should be doing?  Or should I act like everything is okay and ask him to come out?

I don’t want to reinforce bad behavior but also don’t want to create a new issue (I feel like this would be a sub-issue of the rage texting, though). 

Just want to make sure I’m doing this right. Thanks!

[Ozzie101]

Personally, I'd leave him alone. Let him work through his feelings. If you feel like it's right, you can give a casual call of "dinner's ready" but I wouldn't check on him or ask him to come out. If he's dysregulating, better to leave him alone to handle those feelings himself. His feelings are his responsibility. And you don't want to basically offer yourself up as a target for him to "shoot" at.

Just my opinion.

[UBPDHelp]

Thanks Ozzie. That’s what I’m doing, just going about my business.

It’s fun because I’m in a group message with him and my son, and they are chatting back and forth. H is charming and fun and super sweet. I pipe in here and there just to keep it “normal”.

The truth is he either has to see that he’s way out of line and stop or I don’t want to continue living like this so I’m willing to take a chance.

Thanks for the support!

What’s new with you? 

[UBPDHelp]

Just a quick update. He refused to come for dinner. I stayed up with kids to normal time and went to bed usual time. He left the room when I got there and went down to eat and watch tv (it was late).

Heard nothing from him yesterday.  Presumably he went to work as usual.  Son was chatting in group message and both H and I were chiming in but not to each other.  He came home early (usual on Friday) and said nothing and just went to our room.

I just ignored it and only announced dinner. The rest of us ate but he did not. I stayed up later than usual because my son was out and just waiting on him. Once again, I went to bed and he left to go eat and watch tv. 

He comes back to bed both nights.

Today, he gets up whenever and just stays in the room. Finally early afternoon he leaves and says nothing. He calls my son 10 mins later and says he’s coming back to get him so they can do something.

On top of it all, he’ll be out spending money but he’s withholding paychecks from me (I pay bills, he never tells me if/when he has a paycheck (owns his own business). Always spending on emotional void and making it difficult to take care of bills. Super frustrating. Nothing I can do.  I had to leave my job a month or so ago and am in the process of finding a new one but have not yet. 

Anyway, not much to report. Wondering how long this is going to last. I’m not budging. Feel exhausted and confused, but I know nothing will get better if I don’t change.

I do think he may decide to divorce me.  He is so solely focused on my virginity.  He actually will watch every movie on it, and is so triggered by the word, it is unbelievable.  Yet, it has been here so long, I don’t know how it can possibly be the cause even if that’s what he believes.

If anyone has stories of how the resetting boundaries, etc., went and how long their pwBPD took to “come around”, I’d love to hear. Were things better after?  Is there hope or is this a lost cause?

And, is it “normal” for pwBPD to be so focused on a single issue that isn’t really the point?  And do they find some way to link it back to every problem regardless of how not related it is?

Going to go read some success stories for a change of scenery.

[UBPDHelp]

Update. Stayed out last night but has now returned. Immediately just went to our room.

So how long is this going to continue? 

I want to hold my boundary and definitely don’t want to IR. Is there a way to try to communicate at this point without stepping backwards or do I just have to wait for him?

I’m tired, physically, emotionally, mentally and don’t want to be doing this. Just seems like such a waste of time. But also don’t want to continue to be subjected to the attacks.

Any thoughts if there’s a way to hold the boundary but still try to communicate?

[Harri]

Ugh, this is tough. 

Do you think he is being quiet to deal with his own feelings and is taking time to get back to baseline?  Or do you think he is trying to punish you with the Silent treatment?  Could it be a response stemming from depression?  Forgive me please, I don't remember if he has done this before?

[UBPDHelp]

Thanks Harri,

Small hiccup.  My BIL was in a car accident and that forced communication so no resolution.

I don’t know if he is at baseline, but my guess would be silent treatment.  We’ll see when I get back home from watching my nephew.

Out of curiosity, can you do so much JADEing/IR that the baseline is still crappy?  And is the hope that by using the tools you get to a better baseline? 

Thanks!

I’ll update once things settle down.

[UBPDHelp]

Sorry, forgot the other questions.

He won’t see a T, but in addition to suspected BPD, I believe he has waves of depression and anxiety. Last week was anxiety but he pushed me away with such vile rather than accept help.

So he has done this before (not as extreme) but I usually cave to make peace and try to reason with him. I didn’t this time so don’t really know what to expect.

Will let you know how it goes.

If any of this gives you a suggestion, I’m all ears!  Thanks!

[Harri]

Hi.  I am sorry to hear about your BIL.  How is he doing?

Out of curiosity, can you do so much JADEing/IR that the baseline is still crappy?  And is the hope that by using the tools you get to a better baseline?

I think when anyone has been in a r/s for a while and there is JADEing and intermittent reinforcement, it can take much longer to see improvement in responses.  It is very rare that things turn around in a week or two.  Keep at it though.

Now, to go off a bit, I see the tools as helping you/us almost more than our pwBPD.   Yes, we can respond in ways that do not inflame or escalate our pwBPD so in that sense we can change things over time.   The tools will help us cope better and help us detach with love so that we can have more peace.  Realize for me that I come at this from having had a mom with pretty bad mental disorder(s), though I do have an ex with BPD and a former roommate with BPD.  For example, for me, Don't JADE is more about me not begging and trying to convince someone of something they do not want to hear, can not or won't accept, etc.  This helped me detach emotionally, recognize what I could and could not control and work on healthy acceptance so I could work out how I wanted to proceed.  Don't JADE was more about putting boundaries around my own behaviors rather than trying to change my pwBPD.  Make sense?

About the Silent treatment: when used to punish someone I think of it as punitive and a type of abuse.  The best way to respond is to not chase, continue with Don't JADE and go about your life as usual.  Be careful not to give ST in return though as it can be easy to slip into. 

Respond with "OK" or "OK, I'll talk to you later then" and just go about your business.

  Keep telling him dinner is ready, that you are going out (if he needs to know) and tell him of important matters.  Over time, this behavior may extinguish as you no longer feed it with intermittent reinforcement (IR)    

When/if he comes around and during a calm time you can talk with him and let him know you will leave him to his feelings and continue on with your own thing.  If he gets upset, say Okay, we can talk another time and then wait until he is back to baseline and try again.

[UBPDHelp]

Thanks Harri,

It does make sense and using the tools “for me” has definitely made me feel more confident about the situation and less like a chicken with my head cut off (haha, don’t know if anyone says that anymore!).

I am definitely okay with making myself better and do hope breaking this IR cycle (not JADEing is a bit easier, although I’ll share a “funny” story) will eventually bring him some peace so OUR lives get better, but I worry if he’s not actively participating he will not improve.

I’m not sure it will be enough (for me) that I control my reaction if he’s just going to keep being awful to me regardless of whether he means what he says (I believe he at least has convinced himself he does) or is just pushed by stress/anxiety. I guess time will tell. And, the “ok” type messages or just not responding seem to just make it fall away (hours will pass so may be time too).

The tricky thing for me is knowing when to not respond, when to validate and when to SET. And, I still walk into JADE even when I would least expect it.

Quick funny story.  During dinner (finally came and was at crappy baseline