How to deal with good vs. bad triangulation?

[Gorges]

I think that this survey was a good opportunity for me to re-read the tools on the sidebar.  Especially helpful was good vs. bad triangulation.  It was a pattern in my family and I see it get played out in other environs.

Mod note: This thread includes posts split from this original thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=308211.0;all

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

I feel like I have been doing this for long and I have probably struggled with all these skills at some time of another. The triangulation is where I still need work. My DD19 is an expert at doing this and I have a hard time navigating it at times.

One thing I don't see on the list is the skill of detaching with love. I am good at setting boundaries but I am not always good at the aftermath part. Tolerating her discomfort and it taking a real emotional toll on me. So when I read that people are struggling with enforcing limits I wonder if it is more tolerating the discomfort? This is something I am really trying to work on as I have had to set some boundaries which have my dd19 struggling and resisting. I really need to go over the skills on the sidebar again. My daughter is struggling with addiction and at times I am focusing on her addiction issues and forget about her BPD. That is the balance I am trying to achieve because solely working on addiction and not the mental health side is just not working for us.

[wendydarling]

Hi Gorges

How did you become aware your family was participating in triangulation, you say your DD is an expert? Was it the good kind or more Karpman persecutor-victim-rescuer type? Can you share how you worked through it? Who was the persecutor, the victim and the rescuer and how was the conflict resolved?

I had a very interesting conversation with two colleagues at work today and introduced the Karpman type to encourage one colleague (very senior) go away and research, he is a researcher by profession so I'm hopeful he will    A good reminder for me the tools and skills we learn work in all environments. 

WDx

[Skip]

I think the best thing about the concept of triangulation is that it's easy to spot and its a giant signal to not get drawn in emotionally, but rather switch to an alternate role.  The general idea is to convert your role from the Drama to the Winners triangle.

Assert rather than persecute. Instead of the actions of the persecutor,  who blames and punishes - give up trying to force or manipulate others to do what you want. Take on the new behaviors of "doing " and "asserting ". Ask for what you want. Say no for what you don't want. Give constructive feedback. Initiate negotiations. Take positive action.    Be vulnerable, but not a victim. "Victims " often feel overwhelmed, too defeated to solve their problems and emotions. They look to someone else to do it for them. Instead of the victim  role you need to be emotionally mature (vulnerable, not needy), accept the situation you are in and take responsibility to problem solve and function in a more healthy and happy way. Put real thought into what you want and how to get it, and take action to make it happen.    Be caring, but don't overstep. We do not want to let our fears, obligation and guilt to control us or allow us to be manipulated into taking care of another person when it really isn't healthy to do so. Instead of being the rescuer  and doing the thinking, taking the lead, doing more than our share, doing more than is asked of us -  simply be a supportive, empathetic listener and provide reflection, coaching, and assistance if the person asks and is taking the lead themselves. It is important to recognize the other person as an equal (not one-down) and give the other person the respect of letting them take care of themselves, solve their own problems, and deal with their feelings as they choose. Remember, the rescuer  has the most pivotal position on the drama triangle - you are in the strongest position, at least initially, to redirect the dynamic into healthy territory. https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

[livednlearned]

Thanks Skip. The pictures help, especially with the labels "I'm good, I'm blameless, I'm right."

I remember reading about triangulation in Harriet Lerner books (Dance of Anger, Dance of Fear, Dance of Connection -- there are others she has written, and they all seem to discuss triangulation in one way or another). She talks about how stepping away from the role you typically play causes shifts in how other people respond as they try to stabilize the triangle.

I didn't realize I was triangulating SO and sort of persecuting him for not upholding strong boundaries with D20 last summer. I even thought I was being nice, talking to SO about D20s behaviors instead of dealing with them directly.

Some things changed except there was a constant undertone of tension and near-conflict. D20 is a quiet borderline and the boundaries are not so easy to assert.

D20 has spent a couple of week-long stretches with us during school breaks and I started to assert my boundaries instead of trying to get SO to do it for me. I just did it, no discussion, and suddenly he upped his game too. I guess lecturing really doesn't work after all 

One thing for me about changing the triangulation dynamic is that sometimes being assertive means being uncomfortable, and sometimes it means I have to give up something that I really want. It is more about being able to accept a tradeoff so that the really important boundary remains watertight.

[wendydarling]

D20 has spent a couple of week-long stretches with us during school breaks and I started to assert my boundaries instead of trying to get SO to do it for me. I just did it, no discussion, and suddenly he upped his game too. I guess lecturing really doesn't work after all 

LnL, marvellous, that must have felt so good for you and SO!

I'm trying to work out where we are
This relationship triangle is 28 years old
People
28BPDDD: (never lived with her father, left us at 8 months pregnant)
Her father: anxious about BPDDD, anxious about most things - its all about him-his whole life has been about making sure he's ok and it's produced some smacking scenarios - he presently feels hopeless and struggles being able to help himself, taking action, he's quite rigid in his thinking, carries a lot of guilt and I think this stops his learning and growth, I think he's fearful of taking responsibility to help himself and the impact of his previous choices and behaviour.
Me

Roles:
BPD DD is fighting to be well, 12 months DBT to date, she is in the vulnerable role, problem solving, also steps into the assertive role
Me I think I move between assertive and caring roles
Father is presently in the victim role

Latest
Father gets very anxious about DD's BPD. If he calls and texts and does not hear from her he assumes the worst and calls me in a panic. We are expected to respond immediately, always have been. I've explained many times if there was a problem he'd be the first to know and that when DD is suffering from depression, anxiety she wants to be alone and work through it. He takes things out of context, eg., he saw a photo on instagram 'back here again' - the hospital, it was for a routine blood test, it's been a year since her last hospitalisation, he called me at work beside himself ' have you seen, DD is back in hospital!'  The list feels endless.

The last phone call from him about a month ago was to say he is not sleeping because of DD and his anxiety is sky high, that DBT is not working. He lives 300 miles away. I empathised then explained that DD has never given up, she is fighting to be well, that she's in a better place than 2 years ago, she has tools and skills. I explained his anxiety adds to DD anxiety, it's not helpful, he accepted that. I said there is an alternative he did not need to suffer the way he is, there is another way and help his DD too, to take responsibility for himself and have a course of counselling to help him work through his anxiety, also suggested practicing mindfulness. He acknowledged that would be helpful. I also suggested he learn more about BPD (I've previously sent him reading materials) he said he has read and knows all about it? - wish I did! He appreciates my guidance as he's asking for it, the Q is will he follow up, I've not heard from him for a while and I'm dreaming he's out there helping himself, perhaps he is.   

Will he move from victim to vulnerable? Do I reinforce the next time I receive an anxious call or perhaps he'll hide his anxiety and say everything's ok - hide it under the carpet as he's not willing to help himself.

My DD over the years has had many honest conversations with her father about his behaviours, things he says and how they make her feel eg after DD's first hospitalisation she told me when she was 6 her father told her over lunch fat people are not successful?   (DD has a severe eating disorder). DD says the conversations go well, there is acknowledgement from him and an agreement for change. The agreement for change never happens.

That's where we are folks - feedback is most welcome.

WDx

[livednlearned]

wendydarling,

I agree, it is hard when there are decades of patterns to sort through. And DD's father is sort of involved, but not really, so he is probably not privy to all the work you and DD are doing, so that he falls behind.

I wonder if validating questions might work with your DD's father?

It seems he must be getting something out discharging his anxiety on you.

And then you provide the solutions. He can feel like he is solving them just by agreeing, without having to even come up with the solutions on his own

I saw a small example of this working with S15 yesterday. Sometimes it is so hard to just provide the solution. It seems so obvious! With S15, he can be very vulnerable when he's anxious that I realize he must have a very hard time solving any problem, much less one that is causing him distress.

How would DD's father respond if you were to say, "I know you feel anxious right now. Is there something you can do to help manage your anxiety?"

Put focus back on the problem, which is his own anxiety?

As an aside, I had a big aha moment reading a book that describes anxiety as the thing that prevents us from experiencing the depth of depression. That's why it so often goes together: anxiety and depression.

So the anxiety becomes preferable to what can feel much worse. Without sorting through the depression, the anxiety can only be managed. 

[wendydarling]

Thanks for the feedback LnL, that's really helpful of you, validating questions, of course! Not sure if others relate to this, I tend to focus on practicing one skill and then drop a stitch.  Combing the skills is like working towards successfully knitting a jumper without dropping a stitch  A good place to be.

Yes, he seems to gain from discharging his anxiety and then disappears, as you say it's a long story he's discharged every parental responsibility and opportunity for change offered over the decades. After 3 years I finally accepted he was unable to be the father like mine, I stopped expecting of him to be and moved forwards. It's very sad, he was torn apart by his parents and has not moved on despite many of his/our friend psychologists and I being there and offering the path to walk with him.

LnL what's the name of the book you refer to, I'd like to share that aha moment with my DD 

WDx

[livednlearned]

I am like you, dropping a stitch 

I also cannot seem to do more than one skill at a time. One-trick pony. And JADE seems to pop up out of nowhere, the one I always think I have banished.

LnL what's the name of the book you refer to, I'd like to share that aha moment with my DD 

In Search of the Real Self by James Masterson. It might not be the best book to share if DD is prone to blaming mom and dad  . Masterson is part of the group from the 80s and 90s that seemed to be invested in that particular theme, at least from that era. Or at least that was my takeaway. He does acknowledge that there are genetic sensitivities but that was before the latest neuroscience research that brought genetics more to the forefront.

[wendydarling]

Thanks LnL for the book title, context of era it was written and for the heads up re DD.