Fantasy vs. Reality

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I've heard many here say that they felt their BPDxs were wonderful people at heart, while others felt theirs were pure evil.  I can't say either is true for me and it doesn't really concern me: my ex does some good things for people at times but she also has many characteristics that make having an meaningful adult relationship with her difficult if not impossible.

My problem today is that, while I know that any thought I ever had of me with my ex in a healthy, successful life was a fantasy, and I can see exactly why that can never become reality, I still have moments where the fantasy creeps back in and I have to talk myself out of them.  It angers me that I can be so aware of all that goes on with my ex, and that still at times these fantasies will creep in as if they were once reasonable possibilities.  It's not that I haven't "let go" of the dream per se, but more that there are times when my mind debates whether or not it was really a dream.  I inevitably realize that it was, but I get so frustrated that my mind still goes back there, even for a few minutes.  I wonder what others' thoughts are on this. 

We always talk about how we need to learn that our BPDxs attraction to us had little to do with us, and this I'm comfortable with.  But I'm learning more and more that my attraction to her had little to do with her.  Which is to say: I think as long as she presented the way she did (her circumstances, her appearance, etc), it didn't really matter who she was, what her interests were or her ambitions or anything, I would have wanted her.  It was about where I was at the time, what my emotional deficits were, and so I molded everything else to fit what I needed.  That's why I was able to ignore the red flags.  I projected some fantasy onto her because she seemed able to receive it, and I'm sure she did the same with me.  Perhaps the difference was that this was new for me, whereas it is her modus operandi.  She would be able to get in it and out of it much more quickly than me.  And I'm still a bit stuck in it now, not her, but the fantasy.  And she's not stuck in her fantasy with me.  Hence so much frustration, anger. 

[BacknthSaddle]

I've heard many here say that they felt their BPDxs were wonderful people at heart, while others felt theirs were pure evil.  I can't say either is true for me and it doesn't really concern me: my ex does some good things for people at times but she also has many characteristics that make having an meaningful adult relationship with her difficult if not impossible.

My problem today is that, while I know that any thought I ever had of me with my ex in a healthy, successful life was a fantasy, and I can see exactly why that can never become reality, I still have moments where the fantasy creeps back in and I have to talk myself out of them.  It angers me that I can be so aware of all that goes on with my ex, and that still at times these fantasies will creep in as if they were once reasonable possibilities.  It's not that I haven't "let go" of the dream per se, but more that there are times when my mind debates whether or not it was really a dream.  I inevitably realize that it was, but I get so frustrated that my mind still goes back there, even for a few minutes.  I wonder what others' thoughts are on this. 

We always talk about how we need to learn that our BPDxs attraction to us had little to do with us, and this I'm comfortable with.  But I'm learning more and more that my attraction to her had little to do with her.  Which is to say: I think as long as she presented the way she did (her circumstances, her appearance, etc), it didn't really matter who she was, what her interests were or her ambitions or anything, I would have wanted her.  It was about where I was at the time, what my emotional deficits were, and so I molded everything else to fit what I needed.  That's why I was able to ignore the red flags.  I projected some fantasy onto her because she seemed able to receive it, and I'm sure she did the same with me.  Perhaps the difference was that this was new for me, whereas it is her modus operandi.  She would be able to get in it and out of it much more quickly than me.  And I'm still a bit stuck in it now, not her, but the fantasy.  And she's not stuck in her fantasy with me.  Hence so much frustration, anger. 

[Tausk]

Thanks.  This is exactly how I have felt and often do feel at times.  It's a b___.  And I lived in fantasy as a child.  I had to hold on to the fantasy that my life would get better, because otherwise as a child, I would have gone mad.

So I'm familiar with holding on to rescue/being rescued fantasies.  Both of which were part of my interaction in the idealization stage. 

Have you read 2010 seminal "abandoned child/lonely child" expose?   It's the one that I need to read and reread often to remind me of who I was with my ex.

And my ex was not an evil person.  Although her actions in the end were without empathy or responsibility.  She simply doesn't have a clear enough sense of self to be responsible.  There is no core to anchor her... . identity.

Thanks for posting,

T 

[Cimbaruns]

Backnthsaddle

The fantasy creeps in for me almost each and every day. ... . some days more than  others with no rhyme or reason as to what I seem to be doing at the moment.

I wrestle with the "fantasy" and it triggers my "lonely child" I think... . or at least that's how it feels at the time.

Then... . Reality is right there in my mind... . Like poof... . and I'll have a moment of remembering something that was so RED FLAG  ! ... . and then I'm assured that it was indeed a time of absolute craziness!

Today as a matter of fact I had a moment like this and I thought of all of the times I would literally... . at the drop of a hat... . "rescue" her if you will... . by getting in my car and driving 90 minutes at any hour to make her feel better. So many times I did that... . found her in bed... . then she'd pop up and say... . hey let's do something... . like nothing was wrong... .

All the manipulating... . all the crocodile tears... . all the ... . " She wasn't happy".  Omg

So I agree ... . not really wonderful... . nor evil... .

Just a fantasy that this lonely child needed at the time I guess... . like you said

Yes... . we remain stuck at times... . and some times more often than not... .

I think for me it'll be a very slow process... . however I'm not her... . and I know someday I will be in a very better place

I'm with you backn and Tausk... . walking right beside you

Peace

[BacknthSaddle]

Thank you both for your responses. These are definitely feelings I get on days when the lonely child kicks in. Taunk, could you guide me to the 2010 post you referenced?

[Alex86]

Oh yes... I see about which fantasy you're talking about... .

The one that we have been waiting since childhood to fill us... .

The one in which we would feel complete... .

The one in which we would have a partner who loved us... and only us...

A partner who we could trust with all our heart and let down our defences... .

The one that would be perfect and different from the others...

... .

... .

I know that fantasy and it is very difficult to forget it. Not only because I did everything so as not to fail but also because I'm afraid I won't find it again.

This is what 2010 said about being afraid of growing up.

Even if another BPD comes it won't be the same because now I know about BPD and I won't behave the same.

Somehow I feel deep inside me that I won't feel the same with another healthy woman.

And that is so sad for me.

[Tausk]

In some relationships, the idealization phase is the partner being in lonely child stance and the Borderline being in abandoned child stance.*Both need saving* Both need attachment to stave off the pain of being alone.  This is one type of bonding seen in this community.

In this bond, both people bring core trauma to the relationship. Mirroring reenacts the earliest childhood experiences to rise up and emerge into consciousness.

In idealization, there is a dual identification and projection for both people that they have found a perfect love- however, one partner (the “lonely child”) does not yet realize that the other partner (the abandoned child= Borderline) has no whole self- and is utilizing a fantasy of a part-time good in order to fuse with the partner's part time good and become one.

The lonely child has spent much of their life becoming “one.”  When a lonely child finds an abandoned child, both parties feel needed. However, rather than truly loving the individuality of both parties- the sad, fantasy aspect of mirroring magnifies the unhealthy *needs* of both people.

When the lonely child begins to question the reality of mirroring (reality testing) this raises core traumas into activation concerning both the questioning (uncertainty) and the hope (unfulfilled expectations) of the unrealistic attachment. "Lack of inherent trust" is found in both parties at this stage.

Reality testing causes the lonely child to pull away because certain things don't add up- as you say, "the idealization phase slowly erodes."

Pulling away, even while in the lap of comfortable luxury- triggers the abandoned child issues of the Borderline. This causes panic reactions of clinging behaviors by the Borderline to prevent the retreat of their desired love object. These immature demands can look like entitlement to others, especially to a lonely child, who has learned early on to be self sufficient and to self soothe- but the entitlement markers are highly charged and emotional to a Borderline, which isn’t Narcissistic grandiosity- it’s ego deficiency and panic.

The entitlement phase brings a hidden "angry and aggressive child" out from hibernation and into full view and this usually occurs when the lonely child least expects it.  The angry child that emerges is pissed and has delusions of persecution that are ideas of reference from earlier childhood trauma. It’s at this point that the angry child (Borderline) will become enraged and try to cast off shame.  They may attempt to harm himself/herself in order to scapegoat the lonely child- who unwittingly stands-in for the earliest attachment.  This triggers the lonely child's trauma from their earliest attachment as well.

The Borderline wants so badly to be whole that they demand that the lonely child create wholeness for them- which the partner succeeds in doing early on but then relaxes. The Borderline temper tantrum, with its ideas of reference being so very childlike and fantastic, perceives the relaxation of the partner as though the attachment is split up. In order to cope, the Borderline must now find another part time perceived good object to self medicate the emotions of feeling badly from the split.  If this cannot be accomplished, the surge of limbic fear concerning anger and abandonment causes such great pain that self harm is often inflicted for relief.

The lonely child is often very surprised by this. The anger and dysregulation are in contrast to what he/she perceives are necessary for the circumstances. (The lonely child fails to see need disguised as "love."  Therefore, the lonely child seeks to understand the Borderlines ideas of reference concerning "love" in order to cope with the neediness and begins a line of questioning.  The Borderline retreats.

Lonely child is "understanding driven" and gets drawn into the Borderline acting out. The lonely child now has a mystery- the Borderline dilemma of "who am I?" This is very likely the same way that the lonely child came into existence as an “understanding driven” child. Especially when he questioned the motives of his earliest attachments during infancy and adolescence.

The lonely child *understands* the need to be held, loved and understood – because that’s what he longs for in others. The lonely child feels that in order to deal with acting out of the Borderline- the lonely child must project the aura of grace, compassion and understanding upon the Borderline and also guide, teach and show the way- because after all, that’s what the lonely child would want someone to do for him. There was a large reason that the initial mirroring (of this fixer /rescuer ego) worked so well in the idealization stage- the relationship really WAS the projection of lonely child that was mirrored, not the deficient ego of the Borderline.

In the "upside down" world of the Borderline, the lonely child is the perfect attachment to fuse to and the hypersensitive Borderline is the perfect mystery for the lonely child to try to understand.  This is the reactivation of a childhood dynamic- that forms a needy bond.

The Borderline is a perfect template with which to and identify with as a good object and also one to invest in to feel better about the “self.”

The understanding driven lonely child "imagines" (projects) onto the Borderline what he/she feels the Borderline identifies with. The lonely child often fills in the blanks with projective identification and the Borderline attempts to absorbs this- but it's impossible to appear as a self-directed person while taking cues and mirroring another self directed partner.

The Borderline scrambles to keep up with what is projected in a chameleon like manner.  All of this pressure to adapt and conform to the projection smothers and defeats the Borderline’s yearning for a perfect bond and triggers engulfment failure.  

Engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame.  Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline.  It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child partner.

Engulfment makes Borderlines very frustrated and angry- but Borderlines fear abandonment and choose to stuff away their fear and compulsively attempt to manage their pain. The impulsive gestures are a form of self harm that fixes the bond in a permanent chaos of action/reaction.  

Borderlines can be avoidant and passive aggressive and will do everything in their power to hide their strong emotions until they implode.  They swing wildly from abandoned child to angry child until they deflate into detached protector- who is basically a mute that doesn’t speak- or worse, speaks in word salad when confronted.

The swinging dysregulation pattern is unable to be separated and individuated and self directed. Because it cannot be self directed, it cannot be self soothed. There is no ability to defer these emotions to logic and reasoning with introspection *without* another person to blame.  This is where Borderlines are showing you the maturity stage at which they are developmentally arrested and remain stuck and frightened.

Devaluing is the BPD going into the punitive parent role to switch up the control ~ control was relinquished in the idealisation phase so we will attach. The further along we get in the rs ~ the BPD then feels like we are the persecutor for their failing part time self ~ devalue. Devaluing is more about projection ~ because there failing self makes them feel woeful, scared, fearful.

We all have punitive parents that exist in our heads. This is our Superego.  The criticism felt by both parties exists as guilt and shame inside our heads. This tape plays over and over and is a re-working of former traumas. It is also a huge part of what makes complementary traumas so attractive as binding agents to each other.  The lonely child has the “tyrannical shoulds” while the abandoned child has defectiveness schema- together they interact and drive each other crazy.

The understanding driven child cannot fathom how another human being does not have a “self.”  The understanding driven child has had much childhood experience with strong selves and has created a self to understand the motives of others. Lonely children have a need to have some sort of control over their destiny because so much was out of control in their childhood.

The Borderline’s idea of destiny is being attached to others for protection. The Borderline cannot fathom what it means to have a stand alone “self.”

Both parties are human “doing” for others rather than being- but there is more impulsivity in Borderline in the “offering” of themselves as objects.  (The lonely child is very particular concerning who he gives his heart to and makes decisions based upon careful consideration.)

The failure to find a healthy mature love activates the punitive parent in both people’s psyche- one for persecution and the other for failure to understand others (cloaked in rescuing behaviors)- this is the “flea” of each others psychiatric trauma that really is a very strong obsessive bond, and one of endless victimization for both parties unless one or the other becomes understanding driven toward self direction.  Guess who has the best chance?  Unfortunately, the mirrored good that the Borderline provided was a very strong drug- and the obsession is outwardly projected (as it always has been) by the lonely child in order to understand and consequently, control it.

It’s at this point that spying, engaging in testing and push/pull behaviors occur as both parties fight for control. Each pours salt in the others core wound.

The understanding driven child tries to understand the Borderline and the Borderline feels misunderstood and persecuted. The understanding driven child retreats to repair their ego and the Borderline lashes out and tries to shame him. The pendulum swings back and forth in clinging and hating and disordered thought and chaos.  

The lonely child tries to uncover what they think the Borderline is hiding from them (triggering bouts of paranoia) or missing (creating dependency issues.)  The angry child threatens to destroy the relationship (as well as themselves = self harm) which triggers immense anger and outrage for both parties. Their love object is broken.

Both parties are in pain- and their egos are easy to "pinch" because they both fear abandonment.   At this point, both core traumas are exposed and the partners are no longer interacting with each other except to arouse each other’s trauma wounds from childhood.

The false self of the lonely child, that the Borderline mirrored, has more ego- as it is directly tied to a “self” which involves coping mechanisms from childhood that mirrored back good.  It was a self that was capable and seeming to have all the answers in the beginning.  When the Borderline tries to destroy it as a failed attachment, it begins to crumble and the lonely child retreats and tries to repair it- essentially wounded to the core. This is also part and parcel of the injury of the smear campaign- and the lonely child may try to return to defend the "self" from being attacked.

Trauma for the lonely child occurs mainly because of perceived failure they cannot “understand” enough (essentially an obsession at this point) and trauma for the Borderline occurs because of anger and abandonment and shame that existed since infancy- and persecution by their inner parent superego for not becoming whole.  

At this point, both parties feel like failures.

Unfortunately, the repair for the lonely child’s self consists of trying again to fix the Borderline "mirror" to reflect the good.  Many attempts will be made by the lonely child (once again) to effect an outcome other than the failed attachment.  The lonely child will try to re-build the self and get the love object (Borderline) to return and resume their compliant mirroring.

Eventually, the fantasy begins to unravel for the lonely child, that they are alone- and the person that the lonely child fell in love with, (the person in the mirror,) was actually YOU.

Who really is the Borderline? Someone who needed you for awhile because they were scared to be alone.

They’re still scared. Forgive them if you can- they are modern day recreations of their own childhood fears.

Now- after reading all of this- You can’t keep going back for more trauma.   The trauma bond must be broken.

After we've let fantasy go- we can turn the focus to healing.  It's good to wonder what our attraction must have been to this person. Whatever clues you have are generally good enough to give you reason that you’ve had experience with this type of personality before- perhaps within your family of origin.

Stop yourself from thinking that you’ve never been treated so poorly before this relationship. When you catch yourself saying you can't believe it. Stop and think. Chances are- you’ve just chosen to repress a few circumstances from childhood that were traumatic. Now the feelings are back on the surface and you’re going to have to address them.

Introspection involves a great pain. Let those feelings come up. Journal your thoughts when you feel anxious. Learn about yourself. We must address the pain from our childhood that has been left unresolved for too long. We cannot escape from pain if we are to have personal growth- and you've got to get this relationship out of the way in order to get at the real hurt.

Radical acceptance comes when you realize that what was mirrored really wasn’t you- it was what *you wanted others to give to you*   It was <<Understanding.>>

Try to give that to yourself.

[Blimblam]

Somehow I feel deep inside me that I won't feel the same with another healthy woman.

And that is so sad for me.

I feel this too.  After my first uBPD exgf I didn't date for like 2 years. Most of my experience with women is with borderline girls.  The last one I had though it was on another level than the rest.  I just cant imagine anything else being able to compare.  I have a thing for borderline girls and this reflects on me.  At the same time each girl was unique.  It is almost as if I don't really feel chemistry unless they are borderline  

I must be the "lonely child."  Maybe another lonely child would be my perfect match.

[Arminius]

I've heard many here say that they felt their BPDxs were wonderful people at heart, while others felt theirs were pure evil.  I can't say either is true for me and it doesn't really concern me: my ex does some good things for people at times but she also has many characteristics that make having an meaningful adult relationship with her difficult if not impossible.

My problem today is that, while I know that any thought I ever had of me with my ex in a healthy, successful life was a fantasy, and I can see exactly why that can never become reality, I still have moments where the fantasy creeps back in and I have to talk myself out of them.  It angers me that I can be so aware of all that goes on with my ex, and that still at times these fantasies will creep in as if they were once reasonable possibilities.  It's not that I haven't "let go" of the dream per se, but more that there are times when my mind debates whether or not it was really a dream.  I inevitably realize that it was, but I get so frustrated that my mind still goes back there, even for a few minutes.  I wonder what others' thoughts are on this. 

We always talk about how we need to learn that our BPDxs attraction to us had little to do with us, and this I'm comfortable with.  But I'm learning more and more that my attraction to her had little to do with her.  Which is to say: I think as long as she presented the way she did (her circumstances, her appearance, etc), it didn't really matter who she was, what her interests were or her ambitions or anything, I would have wanted her.  It was about where I was at the time, what my emotional deficits were, and so I molded everything else to fit what I needed.  That's why I was able to ignore the red flags.  I projected some fantasy onto her because she seemed able to receive it, and I'm sure she did the same with me.  Perhaps the difference was that this was new for me, whereas it is her modus operandi.  She would be able to get in it and out of it much more quickly than me.  And I'm still a bit stuck in it now, not her, but the fantasy.  And she's not stuck in her fantasy with me.  Hence so much frustration, anger. 

Really thought provoking and I suspect accurate .

[Arminius]

In some relationships, the idealization phase is the partner being in lonely child stance and the Borderline being in abandoned child stance.*Both need saving* Both need attachment to stave off the pain of being alone.  This is one type of bonding seen in this community.

In this bond, both people bring core trauma to the relationship. Mirroring reenacts the earliest childhood experiences to rise up and emerge into consciousness.

In idealization, there is a dual identification and projection for both people that they have found a perfect love- however, one partner (the “lonely child”) does not yet realize that the other partner (the abandoned child= Borderline) has no whole self- and is utilizing a fantasy of a part-time good in order to fuse with the partner's part time good and become one.

The lonely child has spent much of their life becoming “one.”  When a lonely child finds an abandoned child, both parties feel needed. However, rather than truly loving the individuality of both parties- the sad, fantasy aspect of mirroring magnifies the unhealthy *needs* of both people.

When the lonely child begins to question the reality of mirroring (reality testing) this raises core traumas into activation concerning both the questioning (uncertainty) and the hope (unfulfilled expectations) of the unrealistic attachment. "Lack of inherent trust" is found in both parties at this stage.

Reality testing causes the lonely child to pull away because certain things don't add up- as you say, "the idealization phase slowly erodes."

Pulling away, even while in the lap of comfortable luxury- triggers the abandoned child issues of the Borderline. This causes panic reactions of clinging behaviors by the Borderline to prevent the retreat of their desired love object. These immature demands can look like entitlement to others, especially to a lonely child, who has learned early on to be self sufficient and to self soothe- but the entitlement markers are highly charged and emotional to a Borderline, which isn’t Narcissistic grandiosity- it’s ego deficiency and panic.

The entitlement phase brings a hidden "angry and aggressive child" out from hibernation and into full view and this usually occurs when the lonely child least expects it.  The angry child that emerges is pissed and has delusions of persecution that are ideas of reference from earlier childhood trauma. It’s at this point that the angry child (Borderline) will become enraged and try to cast off shame.  They may attempt to harm himself/herself in order to scapegoat the lonely child- who unwittingly stands-in for the earliest attachment.  This triggers the lonely child's trauma from their earliest attachment as well.

The Borderline wants so badly to be whole that they demand that the lonely child create wholeness for them- which the partner succeeds in doing early on but then relaxes. The Borderline temper tantrum, with its ideas of reference being so very childlike and fantastic, perceives the relaxation of the partner as though the attachment is split up. In order to cope, the Borderline must now find another part time perceived good object to self medicate the emotions of feeling badly from the split.  If this cannot be accomplished, the surge of limbic fear concerning anger and abandonment causes such great pain that self harm is often inflicted for relief.

The lonely child is often very surprised by this. The anger and dysregulation are in contrast to what he/she perceives are necessary for the circumstances. (The lonely child fails to see need disguised as "love."  Therefore, the lonely child seeks to understand the Borderlines ideas of reference concerning "love" in order to cope with the neediness and begins a line of questioning.  The Borderline retreats.

Lonely child is "understanding driven" and gets drawn into the Borderline acting out. The lonely child now has a mystery- the Borderline dilemma of "who am I?" This is very likely the same way that the lonely child came into existence as an “understanding driven” child. Especially when he questioned the motives of his earliest attachments during infancy and adolescence.

The lonely child *understands* the need to be held, loved and understood – because that’s what he longs for in others. The lonely child feels that in order to deal with acting out of the Borderline- the lonely child must project the aura of grace, compassion and understanding upon the Borderline and also guide, teach and show the way- because after all, that’s what the lonely child would want someone to do for him. There was a large reason that the initial mirroring (of this fixer /rescuer ego) worked so well in the idealization stage- the relationship really WAS the projection of lonely child that was mirrored, not the deficient ego of the Borderline.

In the "upside down" world of the Borderline, the lonely child is the perfect attachment to fuse to and the hypersensitive Borderline is the perfect mystery for the lonely child to try to understand.  This is the reactivation of a childhood dynamic- that forms a needy bond.

The Borderline is a perfect template with which to and identify with as a good object and also one to invest in to feel better about the “self.”

The understanding driven lonely child "imagines" (projects) onto the Borderline what he/she feels the Borderline identifies with. The lonely child often fills in the blanks with projective identification and the Borderline attempts to absorbs this- but it's impossible to appear as a self-directed person while taking cues and mirroring another self directed partner.

The Borderline scrambles to keep up with what is projected in a chameleon like manner.  All of this pressure to adapt and conform to the projection smothers and defeats the Borderline’s yearning for a perfect bond and triggers engulfment failure.  

Engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame.  Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline.  It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child partner.

Engulfment makes Borderlines very frustrated and angry- but Borderlines fear abandonment and choose to stuff away their fear and compulsively attempt to manage their pain. The impulsive gestures are a form of self harm that fixes the bond in a permanent chaos of action/reaction.  

Borderlines can be avoidant and passive aggressive and will do everything in their power to hide their strong emotions until they implode.  They swing wildly from abandoned child to angry child until they deflate into detached protector- who is basically a mute that doesn’t speak- or worse, speaks in word salad when confronted.

The swinging dysregulation pattern is unable to be separated and individuated and self directed. Because it cannot be self directed, it cannot be self soothed. There is no ability to defer these emotions to logic and reasoning with introspection *without* another person to blame.  This is where Borderlines are showing you the maturity stage at which they are developmentally arrested and remain stuck and frightened.

Devaluing is the BPD going into the punitive parent role to switch up the control ~ control was relinquished in the idealisation phase so we will attach. The further along we get in the rs ~ the BPD then feels like we are the persecutor for their failing part time self ~ devalue. Devaluing is more about projection ~ because there failing self makes them feel woeful, scared, fearful.

We all have punitive parents that exist in our heads. This is our Superego.  The criticism felt by both parties exists as guilt and shame inside our heads. This tape plays over and over and is a re-working of former traumas. It is also a huge part of what makes complementary traumas so attractive as binding agents to each other.  The lonely child has the “tyrannical shoulds” while the abandoned child has defectiveness schema- together they interact and drive each other crazy.

The understanding driven child cannot fathom how another human being does not have a “self.”  The understanding driven child has had much childhood experience with strong selves and has created a self to understand the motives of others. Lonely children have a need to have some sort of control over their destiny because so much was out of control in their childhood.

The Borderline’s idea of destiny is being attached to others for protection. The Borderline cannot fathom what it means to have a stand alone “self.”

Both parties are human “doing” for others rather than being- but there is more impulsivity in Borderline in the “offering” of themselves as objects.  (The lonely child is very particular concerning who he gives his heart to and makes decisions based upon careful consideration.)

The failure to find a healthy mature love activates the punitive parent in both people’s psyche- one for persecution and the other for failure to understand others (cloaked in rescuing behaviors)- this is the “flea” of each others psychiatric trauma that really is a very strong obsessive bond, and one of endless victimization for both parties unless one or the other becomes understanding driven toward self direction.  Guess who has the best chance?  Unfortunately, the mirrored good that the Borderline provided was a very strong drug- and the obsession is outwardly projected (as it always has been) by the lonely child in order to understand and consequently, control it.

It’s at this point that spying, engaging in testing and push/pull behaviors occur as both parties fight for control. Each pours salt in the others core wound.

The understanding driven child tries to understand the Borderline and the Borderline feels misunderstood and persecuted. The understanding driven child retreats to repair their ego and the Borderline lashes out and tries to shame him. The pendulum swings back and forth in clinging and hating and disordered thought and chaos.  

The lonely child tries to uncover what they think the Borderline is hiding from them (triggering bouts of paranoia) or missing (creating dependency issues.)  The angry child threatens to destroy the relationship (as well as themselves = self harm) which triggers immense anger and outrage for both parties. Their love object is broken.

Both parties are in pain- and their egos are easy to "pinch" because they both fear abandonment.   At this point, both core traumas are exposed and the partners are no longer interacting with each other except to arouse each other’s trauma wounds from childhood.

The false self of the lonely child, that the Borderline mirrored, has more ego- as it is directly tied to a “self” which involves coping mechanisms from childhood that mirrored back good.  It was a self that was capable and seeming to have all the answers in the beginning.  When the Borderline tries to destroy it as a failed attachment, it begins to crumble and the lonely child retreats and tries to repair it- essentially wounded to the core. This is also part and parcel of the injury of the smear campaign- and the lonely child may try to return to defend the "self" from being attacked.

Trauma for the lonely child occurs mainly because of perceived failure they cannot “understand” enough (essentially an obsession at this point) and trauma for the Borderline occurs because of anger and abandonment and shame that existed since infancy- and persecution by their inner parent superego for not becoming whole.  

At this point, both parties feel like failures.

Unfortunately, the repair for the lonely child’s self consists of trying again to fix the Borderline "mirror" to reflect the good.  Many attempts will be made by the lonely child (once again) to effect an outcome other than the failed attachment.  The lonely child will try to re-build the self and get the love object (Borderline) to return and resume their compliant mirroring.

Eventually, the fantasy begins to unravel for the lonely child, that they are alone- and the person that the lonely child fell in love with, (the person in the mirror,) was actually YOU.

Who really is the Borderline? Someone who needed you for awhile because they were scared to be alone.

They’re still scared. Forgive them if you can- they are modern day recreations of their own childhood fears.

Now- after reading all of this- You can’t keep going back for more trauma.   The trauma bond must be broken.

After we've let fantasy go- we can turn the focus to healing.  It's good to wonder what our attraction must have been to this person. Whatever clues you have are generally good enough to give you reason that you’ve had experience with this type of personality before- perhaps within your family of origin.

Stop yourself from thinking that you’ve never been treated so poorly before this relationship. When you catch yourself saying you can't believe it. Stop and think. Chances are- you’ve just chosen to repress a few circumstances from childhood that were traumatic. Now the feelings are back on the surface and you’re going to have to address them.

Introspection involves a great pain. Let those feelings come up. Journal your thoughts when you feel anxious. Learn about yourself. We must address the pain from our childhood that has been left unresolved for too long. We cannot escape from pain if we are to have personal growth- and you've got to get this relationship out of the way in order to get at the real hurt.

Radical acceptance comes when you realize that what was mirrored really wasn’t you- it was what *you wanted others to give to you*   It was <<Understanding.>>

Try to give that to yourself.

Wow. What a post/quote. This is golden.

[Alex86]

I feel this too.  After my first uBPD exgf I didn't date for like 2 years. Most of my experience with women is with borderline girls.  The last one I had though it was on another level than the rest.  I just cant imagine anything else being able to compare.  I have a thing for borderline girls and this reflects on me.  At the same time each girl was unique.  It is almost as if I don't really feel chemistry unless they are borderline  

I must be the "lonely child."  Maybe another lonely child would be my perfect match.

Exactly. This chemistry... .

Isn't the question then how to overcome this lonely child?

I really can't afford therapy.

Is there any good book for this?

[Arminius]

It isn't really chemistry. There is no connection other that what we see reflected back to us. The same person is different when they meet someone else, therefore any chemistry is  more alchemy, wizardry and witchcraft!

[trappedinlove]

It isn't really chemistry. There is no connection other that what we see reflected back to us. The same person is different when they meet someone else, therefore any chemistry is  more alchemy, wizardry and witchcraft!

Don't confuse chemistry with exclusiveness.

I'm afraid that the notion of "The One" is a fantasy on its own.

So, to be blunt, so what if your partner is different and connects really well also with others?

[trappedinlove]

I've heard many here say that they felt their BPDxs were wonderful people at heart, while others felt theirs were pure evil.  I can't say either is true for me and it doesn't really concern me: my ex does some good things for people at times but she also has many characteristics that make having an meaningful adult relationship with her difficult if not impossible.

My problem today is that, while I know that any thought I ever had of me with my ex in a healthy, successful life was a fantasy, and I can see exactly why that can never become reality, I still have moments where the fantasy creeps back in and I have to talk myself out of them.  It angers me that I can be so aware of all that goes on with my ex, and that still at times these fantasies will creep in as if they were once reasonable possibilities.  It's not that I haven't "let go" of the dream per se, but more that there are times when my mind debates whether or not it was really a dream.  I inevitably realize that it was, but I get so frustrated that my mind still goes back there, even for a few minutes.  I wonder what others' thoughts are on this. 

We always talk about how we need to learn that our BPDxs attraction to us had little to do with us, and this I'm comfortable with.  But I'm learning more and more that my attraction to her had little to do with her.  Which is to say: I think as long as she presented the way she did (her circumstances, her appearance, etc), it didn't really matter who she was, what her interests were or her ambitions or anything, I would have wanted her.  It was about where I was at the time, what my emotional deficits were, and so I molded everything else to fit what I needed.  That's why I was able to ignore the red flags.  I projected some fantasy onto her because she seemed able to receive it, and I'm sure she did the same with me.  Perhaps the difference was that this was new for me, whereas it is her modus operandi.  She would be able to get in it and out of it much more quickly than me.  And I'm still a bit stuck in it now, not her, but the fantasy.  And she's not stuck in her fantasy with me.  Hence so much frustration, anger. 

BnS, in my case fantasy, on both sides, played a bit role in the r/s dynamics.  Although in our case the dynamics were different than yours.

I'm not sure how well I can articulate it right now but the projection and mirroring with a pwBPD are real as they can be within the disorder.

[BacknthSaddle]

The post by 2010 is tremendously powerful.  The lonely child resonates deeply with me, particularly the need to "understand, teach, and show the way."  Initially I convinced myself that my bond to my ex was based entirely on sexual attraction, but I am realizing now that if that were the case, then obviously the r/s (and aftermath) would not have lasted nearly as long or been as painful.  It is pretty clear to me now that she was the "ideal" partner for me because she provided me the opportunity to explain her and her unhealthy choices to her self.  Since the end, I have noticed two things about the desire to contact her (which I have not done in some time):

1) It is always triggered when I am feeling loneliness (even when I am at work, for example, and my desk-mate has called out sick).

2) When I play out the potential contact in my mind, where she tells me what she's struggling with in her life (which would undoubtedly be the case), I find myself explaining to her why this is happening, why these are bad choices, why she is making them, etc.  Then I think "she's never going to change, and even if she were: why do I care so much about whether or not she understands the choices she is making?  What difference does it make?

It makes a lot of sense in this context. 

[BacknthSaddle]

It is almost as if I don't really feel chemistry unless they are borderline  

I agree that it's not truly "chemistry," and anyway the idea of successful relationships being based on some sort of instantaneous chemisty is fantastical.  After all, how can it be possible that we know a person is right for us without knowing anything about them at all?  We all thought are BPDxs were right for us at first; if we had learned more about them before the supposed "chemistry" kicked in, we would have thought something totally different. 

In addition to the problem with mirroring that Arminius references, there is the fact that this "chemistry" with a borderline is instantaneous.  If your primary r/s experience is with borderlines, then your expectation with relationships will be that "chemistry" SHOULD be instantaneous.  In truth, chemistry is something that should build over time, as you get to know someone's interests, values, personal history, etc.  But it's something that one has to be patient, to wait for.  One has to recognize that it may or may not appear, but that it takes time.  You won't have that "chemistry" right away with someone who is not disordered.  But that doesn't mean you should jump ship. 

[strong9]

Is 2010 the oracle? 

Every post is so illuminating and thoughtful.  How do I find other posts? For some reason I'm not allowed to call up 2010's profile.

[Arminius]

It isn't really chemistry. There is no connection other that what we see reflected back to us. The same person is different when they meet someone else, therefore any chemistry is  more alchemy, wizardry and witchcraft!

Don't confuse chemistry with exclusiveness.

I'm afraid that the notion of "The One" is a fantasy on its own.

So, to be blunt, so what if your partner is different and connects really well also with others?

It matters because they are not real. Not genuine. Lack authenticity.

And it matters here because people who have fallen prey to these BPD types need to understand that what they (I) thought they had wasn't real. Only then can we move on , love and trust a normal person, and enjoy our lives.

[Arminius]

I am lonely child. For sure. My career choice would make that pretty clear. I'm a fixer, a problem solver, hell, when I first met my uBPDxgf she called me McGuyver, and proudly told her family I was that way.

Funny how that trait of mine became one of the blackest, the one she used to throw in my face with hatred.

[BacknthSaddle]

I am lonely child. For sure. My career choice would make that pretty clear. I'm a fixer, a problem solver, hell, when I first met my uBPDxgf she called me McGuyver, and proudly told her family I was that way.

Ditto.

Everyone says to focus on yourself in this situation.  It is so difficult, but recently I feel like it has started to liberate me.  Many if not most people here are in situations different from my own, but in my case I can say now that my relationship, from the beginning, was pure pathology from both sides.  I knew it was destined to fail, but I allowed my narcissism to convince me that I could control the situation, and I ignored the many red flags from her end as they would have made it obvious that such control was impossible.  No one is to blame that this relationship didn't work, because it never, ever could have worked in the first place.  I am to blame for allowing it to continue when I shouldn't have, and the pain I'm dealing with now is a result of that.  She is who she is: I see her pathology now, but I can't affect it or control it, nor can I affect or control the pathology of her future partners, people I spend an absurd amount of time fantasizing about to know good end. 

I realize now that I am the lonely child due to FOO issues (some of which are obvious, like abandonment from my father when I was an infant, others more unclear).  This is obvious in my everyday life and is not subtle.  I am troubled by loneliness and surround myself with friends (both in the physical and virtual worlds) to guard against it.  I live in a major American city, and have only lived in such cities because I can't bear the loneliness of the country or suburbs.  This has been a MAJOR issue throughout my life, but it hasn't caused major PROBLEMS until this relationship, because of the defenses I've constructed to cope with it.  This woman was the perfect woman to save me from my lonely child at the beginning, which is why I fell in with her, but of course she was also the perfect person to tear all of my defenses down and leave me broken.  I couldn't have known that per se from the beginning, but I should have been more cautious for sure. 

In any case, what happens to her going forward is no longer my concern.  It's unlikely that she'll find true happiness with someone, and if she finds something lasting it will probably be because she's found a doormat to tolerate her behavior or a narcissist who manipulates her core shame.  But honestly, who cares.  Why am I thinking about the future of a relationship partner with whom I was destined to fail?  Am I really upset that it failed?  This is so absurd that I have to splash cold water on my face and look in the mirror.  This whole thing opened my eyes to myself, and now I have to figure out how to resolve this lonely child s*** so what happened this time doesn't happen again. 

But how do I do that.  Or, at least, how do I begin.  Therapy is a necessity, but what else?  Does anyone have thoughts on this?

I'm sorry for rambling.  I needed to get that all out.  If you've read some of it, I thank you. 

[Alex86]

I'm sorry for rambling.  I needed to get that all out.  If you've read some of it, I thank you.  

I 've read all of it and it was like describing me. Like 2010's quote says through all my life I have been trying to be independent and live by my own choices.

When I read that I felt something in my spine.

Then for sometime I was paralysed. It was so true and scary. I couldn't comprehend why the lonely child is so much of a problem.

I don't know why it upsets me so much the feeling of loneliness. I would also be grateful for any advice to overcome this.

[Blimblam]

IN many of 2010 posts he talks about the importance of experiencing the abandonement trauma from the pwBPD as a crucial part of confronting ones own core trauma, then goes onto suggest investigating ones own core issues for who the borderline reminds you of in your FOO.

I have done this on an intellectual level but I think the body processes the trauama and these realizations on its own time.

and Backn,

I think it is the initial look of a borderline that immediatly triggers me.  The fact they don't pretend to be the authority makes them seem humble while the mirroring makes it seem like they really appreciate your unique perspective. 

I really resonate with the lonely child schema but I am an introvert and a loner.  Groups tend to bring out the overt narcissists and I can not stand them.

I Think the only ones who can outwit the borderline on a consistant basis over time are sociopaths.  The Narcissist has a sense of self under the façade and that makes them vulnerable to the Borderline.  The Narc may discard the borderline and the borderline chases them and they have a series of on again off again. The sociopath has nothing underneath which makes them invulnerable.  They are apex preditors.

[peiper]

No matter how much I read it still blows my mind how they can be like this.

[goldylamont]

here's what i identify with from this description of the lonely child:

1) strong sense of self

2) independent, self directed

3) being "understanding driven", i.e. being curious about the world, humanity, society, nature, life, etc.

4) this: "The understanding driven child retreats to repair their ego and the Borderline lashes out and tries to shame him" -- i felt this happened often, especially towards the end of the r/s

but here are the things which have always felt foreign to me. i just don't identify:

1) FOO issues -- i do have issues from childhood, but everybody does. i don't have something that stands out that i've ever been able to put my finger on. nothing to me that feels like it draws me to emotionally unstable women. i'm definitely extremely independent and highly value personal choice over the values of others, but so far i feel like this has been enriching in my life... .

2) being a fixer/rescuer -- now, it is true that in general i tend to gravitate towards taking the lead on things; i will sometimes put myself 'out there' or speak up in situations to resolve issues. and i recognize that most other people aren't comfortable doing this, even if they feel they want to. i dunno, i see this perhaps as being courageous--an personality trait that i wish to embody. so perhaps i do things to reinforce this.

i'll give you the last example i can think of, which isn't a big deal, but just something i notice a lot. i am a musician myself and i also enjoy going to a lot of shows. well, oftentimes during a performance something will go wrong with equipment--the guitars will go silent or something falls on the drum set, or the singer will get a cable tangled and the mic stand or something else starts to fall. i'm always the person to jump in and fix it. like last friday, some great performers were playing, but the singer was moving around and stepped on the volume pedal of his guitarist, so the sound went completely out. the guitarist was confused and went back to his amp thinking it was blown or something got unplugged, trying to get his sound back. i couldn't have been the only one to see what happened. and i waited like 10 seconds for someone to do something. then i just couldn't take it any more--so i just pushed through (nicely) a few people and hopped on stage and hit his volume pedal, checked his connection then hopped back off. then i could see his expression was like "ooh! thanks!". this happens often where i'm left wondering--why doesn't somebody do something? this has happened to me and i always appreciate it when someone pics up a mic stand i may have knocked over or throws me a drum stick if i was too stupid to have a spare within reach. this is a small thing but kind of an example of where i would do something where others may feel uncomfortable or just wait for a situation to fix itself.

but still even with this i never felt the need to try and change anyone. or to save anyone. there's actually a popular song called "Captain Save-a-Ho" which specifically warns against and makes fun of men with rescuer type personalities. friends will joke (in a light-hearted, fun way) with each other--"hey Captain, take off your cape!" when you do rescuer type stuff--i've never been the captain type.

i suppose i can be guilty of projecting my own good intentions or values onto others. i mean, in my r/s with xBPD i did always trust her and never questioned her honesty--i did question her fairness and emotional control but i never thought of her as a liar or deceiver. but this was revealed to me later, although i don't think she's like this all the time (high functioning). and, i don't consider myself a gullible or naive person, although in this specific situation i feel i was both. i just never knew someone would or could behave in such ways, but also be loving and caring at other times.

so in my situation, i still don't feel that there was much i could have/should have done differently in the r/s. no real red flags of my own that were uncovered. and this means for me, in recovery that i have a different challenge than most. because it's easy to stay attached to the anger, because from my point of view the majority of the issues were the responsibility of my ex. but i still have to let this go, and i feel perhaps having a stronger foundation and sense of self has helped tremendously in this regard. still, there's no real golden goose egg of self realization even after 2 years. but perhaps this is also a blessing.

i wanted to share because i understand that this is not where most others are coming from. but at the same time i wonder how many others may identify?

[BacknthSaddle]

1) FOO issues -- i do have issues from childhood, but everybody does. i don't have something that stands out that i've ever been able to put my finger on. nothing to me that feels like it draws me to emotionally unstable women. i'm definitely extremely independent and highly value personal choice over the values of others, but so far i feel like this has been enriching in my life... .

You may be right, but I would just point out that just because nothing stands out doesn't mean it's not there.  I will say that in my case, although I do have something obvious (my father's abandonment), I spent far too much of my life chalking everything up to this. It was only after this r/s happened that I started to realize that so much more had gone on in my youth than I appreciated. 

I watched a home movie from when I was 5 years old for XMas; this was just supposed to be a happy fun thing.  I was really troubled by it and actually had to turn it off.  I spend some time after this figuring out what is so upsetting. 

Point just being: the fact that nothing sticks out doesn't mean it's not there. 

2) being a fixer/rescuer -- now, it is true that in general i tend to gravitate towards taking the lead on things; i will sometimes put myself 'out there' or speak up in situations to resolve issues. and i recognize that most other people aren't comfortable doing this, even if they feel they want to. i dunno, i see this perhaps as being courageous--an personality trait that i wish to embody. so perhaps i do things to reinforce this.

i'll give you the last example i can think of, which isn't a big deal, but just something i notice a lot. i am a musician myself and i also enjoy going to a lot of shows. well, oftentimes during a performance something will go wrong with equipment--the guitars will go silent or something falls on the drum set, or the singer will get a cable tangled and the mic stand or something else starts to fall. i'm always the person to jump in and fix it. like last friday, some great performers were playing, but the singer was moving around and stepped on the volume pedal of his guitarist, so the sound went completely out. the guitarist was confused and went back to his amp thinking it was blown or something got unplugged, trying to get his sound back. i couldn't have been the only one to see what happened. and i waited like 10 seconds for someone to do something. then i just couldn't take it any more--so i just pushed through (nicely) a few people and hopped on stage and hit his volume pedal, checked his connection then hopped back off. then i could see his expression was like "ooh! thanks!". this happens often where i'm left wondering--why doesn't somebody do something? this has happened to me and i always appreciate it when someone pics up a mic stand i may have knocked over or throws me a drum stick if i was too stupid to have a spare within reach. this is a small thing but kind of an example of where i would do something where others may feel uncomfortable or just wait for a situation to fix itself.

but still even with this i never felt the need to try and change anyone. or to save anyone. there's actually a popular song called "Captain Save-a-Ho" which specifically warns against and makes fun of men with rescuer type personalities. friends will joke (in a light-hearted, fun way) with each other--"hey Captain, take off your cape!" when you do rescuer type stuff--i've never been the captain type.

i suppose i can be guilty of projecting my own good intentions or values onto others. i mean, in my r/s with xBPD i did always trust her and never questioned her honesty--i did question her fairness and emotional control but i never thought of her as a liar or deceiver. but this was revealed to me later, although i don't think she's like this all the time (high functioning). and, i don't consider myself a gullible or naive person, although in this specific situation i feel i was both. i just never knew someone would or could behave in such ways, but also be loving and caring at other times.

So, you are a fixer, just not in romance.  I agree that this is an admirable trait. I think that if there's one thing I've learned from all of this, it's that there are appropriate, healthy avenues for altruism (professional life, volunteerism, etc), and then there are unhealthy avenues (romantic life).  I imagine though that anyone with strong fixer/altruistic tendencies can be sucked into the fixer role in romance if he/she is not careful.  That may not have happened in your r/s, but it's certainly something to keep an eye on now that you've had this experience with BPD. 

In any case, I think there are probably many others who can relate, and I don't think there needs to be a "golden goose" of self-realization necessarily.  I think it's always worth investigating if there was anything that could have been done differently to avoid this type of relationship though, no matter how many years out. If we decide it was just random chance and say there's nothing we could have done, then we're implicitly saying there's nothing we can do if it happens again.