An attempt at introspection

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I’ve been trying over the last couple days, when I’ve had some time alone, to do some serious introspection regarding my r/s with my ex.  I want to share my thoughts with you and get your thoughts as well.  Perhaps this will resonate with some. 

From the beginning, from its foundation, my r/s with my ex was unhealthy.  This may not be true of everyone here; perhaps others’ relationships became unhealthy over time, but (and if you know my story you’ll agree) mine was fundamentally unhealthy from the beginning.  The responsibility for this was on both partners equally.  When she ultimately left, she actually said “I want all my relationships to be healthy from now on.”  Of course, she said many other things that contradicted this, and she has since continued to attempt to maintain an unhealthy bond with me, but that’s beside the point.  She felt it in the moment, and at that moment anyway, her decision was in fact healthy.

So now I have to ask myself: do I want to be healthy? Do I want healthy relationships?  Let’s define a healthy r/s as one which engenders the greatest possible net happiness for all parties involved (say me, a spouse, children, family, etc), and an unhealthy relationship as one in which there are massive highs with enormous but fleeting happiness, and subsequently massive lows with unhappiness and loneliness, so that although there are incredible moments on balance things are neutral to unhappy. 

If I look at myself honestly, at my ACTIONS, I have to say that no, I don’t want healthy relationships.  I am too drawn to the type of unhealthy relationship described above, and that is what I really want. 

Of course, I WANT to want healthy relationships.  I know the unhealthy type will lead me into serious suffering and, perhaps most importantly, into loneliness.  So now, the mission has to be: figuring out how to get myself to a point where I want healthy relationships for real. 

I have been thinking a lot recently about my FOO, how experiences with them may have led me to desire the unhealthy type of relationship, and I think therapy helps.  But, I need more help than that.  I need my own strength of will, and I need help from this incredibly helpful community as well.  I have to break my addiction to these kind of relationships, relationships that have all the trappings of fantasy (being predicated on beauty and flattery and magical thinking) so that I can enjoy my life and not end up sad and lonely.  Because I know that is reality if I don’t break the addiction.

As for my ex: her pathology needs not to matter to me any more.  I am not optimistic about her chance of being healthy. She doesn’t even realize that our relationship can’t be anything BUT unhealthy if it persists, for example, and she continues to test my NC boundary, emailing me through work email (unusually) today and saying “Hope you are well.”  But I’m not rooting against her becoming healthy either.  If she wants to be healthy, good!  That is a good goal for both of us.  It involves us staying apart, but we will be staying apart in the service of a good goal.

If you’ve read this far, I thank you.  Getting my thoughts down on the screen before I lose them is valuable, essential.  If you have any thoughts to share, they are greatly appreciated. 

[BacknthSaddle]

I’ve been trying over the last couple days, when I’ve had some time alone, to do some serious introspection regarding my r/s with my ex.  I want to share my thoughts with you and get your thoughts as well.  Perhaps this will resonate with some. 

From the beginning, from its foundation, my r/s with my ex was unhealthy.  This may not be true of everyone here; perhaps others’ relationships became unhealthy over time, but (and if you know my story you’ll agree) mine was fundamentally unhealthy from the beginning.  The responsibility for this was on both partners equally.  When she ultimately left, she actually said “I want all my relationships to be healthy from now on.”  Of course, she said many other things that contradicted this, and she has since continued to attempt to maintain an unhealthy bond with me, but that’s beside the point.  She felt it in the moment, and at that moment anyway, her decision was in fact healthy.

So now I have to ask myself: do I want to be healthy? Do I want healthy relationships?  Let’s define a healthy r/s as one which engenders the greatest possible net happiness for all parties involved (say me, a spouse, children, family, etc), and an unhealthy relationship as one in which there are massive highs with enormous but fleeting happiness, and subsequently massive lows with unhappiness and loneliness, so that although there are incredible moments on balance things are neutral to unhappy. 

If I look at myself honestly, at my ACTIONS, I have to say that no, I don’t want healthy relationships.  I am too drawn to the type of unhealthy relationship described above, and that is what I really want. 

Of course, I WANT to want healthy relationships.  I know the unhealthy type will lead me into serious suffering and, perhaps most importantly, into loneliness.  So now, the mission has to be: figuring out how to get myself to a point where I want healthy relationships for real. 

I have been thinking a lot recently about my FOO, how experiences with them may have led me to desire the unhealthy type of relationship, and I think therapy helps.  But, I need more help than that.  I need my own strength of will, and I need help from this incredibly helpful community as well.  I have to break my addiction to these kind of relationships, relationships that have all the trappings of fantasy (being predicated on beauty and flattery and magical thinking) so that I can enjoy my life and not end up sad and lonely.  Because I know that is reality if I don’t break the addiction.

As for my ex: her pathology needs not to matter to me any more.  I am not optimistic about her chance of being healthy. She doesn’t even realize that our relationship can’t be anything BUT unhealthy if it persists, for example, and she continues to test my NC boundary, emailing me through work email (unusually) today and saying “Hope you are well.”  But I’m not rooting against her becoming healthy either.  If she wants to be healthy, good!  That is a good goal for both of us.  It involves us staying apart, but we will be staying apart in the service of a good goal.

If you’ve read this far, I thank you.  Getting my thoughts down on the screen before I lose them is valuable, essential.  If you have any thoughts to share, they are greatly appreciated. 

[Mutt]

I have been thinking a lot recently about my FOO, how experiences with them may have led me to desire the unhealthy type of relationship, and I think therapy helps.  But, I need more help than that.  I need my own strength of will, and I need help from this incredibly helpful community as well.

I agree. I did work in therapy and I did the other 50% of the work here with my FOO on the PI board. I needed to understand what drew me to my ex and ultimately why I kept repeating the same unhealthy relationship patterns with partners. There was an overarching pattern and in restrospect I think that there was at least one ex that had BPD traits. My wife was the the most difficult out of all of my relationships. A wake-up call.

I am not optimistic about her chance of being healthy.

I'm not optimistic either because she is not self aware. She's gone into the dr (what I know of, maybe she distorted who knows?) several times and was diagnosed with depression. Maybe an MD will suggest that she has BPD. I don't know but like you I wish her the best. I choose to not enable her dysfunctional behaviors in the hopes that maybe someday she seeks help. I don't want to be a part of the dysfunction anymore, I want a happier, healthier relationship with less drama. She has a bf, it's not for me to worry about her pathology or insecurities and it's for him to worry about.

[rg1976]

I have to agree with you here on this. There is something about the unhealthy relationship pattern that draws us. I've yet to figure it out myself. I wonder if having that knowledge will actually change the desire.


I do in fact desire a healthy relationship, but I also desire some of the "special sauce" of the unhealthy too, if that makes sense.

The truth is that no one is perfect, and no relationship is perfect. No one is completely healthy, and relationships will fall along a spectrum. Since there is no such thing as perfection, I suppose the best we can do is set out with a list of things we will tolerate and things we will not tolerate and stick to it.

Part of my BPD relationship was me being in utter and complete shock at her behavior at times, and putting my head in the sand, being in denial when she came back and acted like nothing happened and refused to even talk about "the issues".

I wanted thing to be better than they were, but I refused to leave because I thought you should take the good with the bad, and it can't possibly be as bad as it appeared, right?

I think being connected with reality, observing what happens and taking those specific actions and holding them up against our " list of thing one shouldn't observe in a healthy relationship" i.e. our "intolerance list".  If it happens, then step back and seriously reconsider.


I think most want their ideal relationship to be more on the healthy end of the spectrum than the unhealthy end.  No abuse, mutual respect, kindness, support, etc.  I do believe that not enough thought or consideration is given to these things when we are " in the mix". Also, everyone is in a different place emotionally and etc.

Very interesting topic to consider for sure.

Thanks,

rg1976

[merlin4926]

I miss the intensity and if I'm honest I miss the drama life just seems very grey without him.

[Infern0]

I've done a lot of introspection on my self and learned a lot about why I'm the way i am.

I thought I had a pretty normal upbringing,  but looking at it now I can see that my parents had a very unloving relationship.  I had a histrionic for a mother and an emotionally detached father.  It's left me with a multitude of issues that I never knew I had.

Hero complex,  people pleaser,  problem solver,  avoidant tendencies.

There is a lot there to work with but it's like where do you even start to reprogram yourself after a lifetime of that.

Like others here i think even if I go a long way to changing my behaviors,  I'll ALWAYS be drawn to certain people.  Girls with "issues" just do it for me. Hot girls with issues.  That's my type. I've had normal relationships and I get bored, my attraction level plummets when there is no drama or excitement.  I love challenge,  I love a bit of craziness.  Kind of sick.

I suppose it's about striking a balance.  I don't even know.

[goldylamont]

i am in the minority on this but i feel like i want healthy relationships. i've had 4 long term r/s so far and only one of them with someone showing BPD behavior. i had a healthy year long r/s after breaking up with uBPDxgf. i don't think i was or am drawn to drama, actually quite repulsed by it. i did deal with a lot of drama with uBPDx though but cut things off i think before my subconscious 'deal breakers' occurred. it's actually hard for me to understand the intense highs and lows that others have experienced. i know i had to go through this to some degree since there were definitely big lows in the r/s, but if anything i don't think what kept me wanting to be with this person were the 'highs' in the r/s if you will. for me i think it was comfort. i finally felt settled. i believe many here may have codependent traits but i think i may have some commitment issues. i don't cheat and generally happy in a LT r/s but it's really hard for me to think about having a full life together, forever kind of thing. i'm maturing now and really wanting this and trying my hardest to figure out just what it is that will make me happy. my last r/s was with a woman who i still think of often, we had great chemistry, over the top sexuality which was great, yet i got scared because i wasn't sure if i wanted to spend the rest of my life with her. after a year of being together and knowing she wanted these things i was scared about how i'd feel about things a couple years down the road when inevitably talk of marriage and children arose. i loved her, but felt i had to let her go. i loved her too much to waste her time... .or maybe i'm wasting mine now? questions i've been asking myself a lot lately.

looking back at my healthy r/s though, i don't see any lack of magic or love/intensity. sometimes i feel as if 'healthy' can be equated to 'boring', and i don't think this is true. i kind of see it like food--sure there's lots of unhealthy foods out there that taste amazing (ICE CREAM!), but as we mature we start appreciating things we didn't before and our tastes change. i used to think Pop Rocks were the bomb when i was a kid! now i get excited by the freshest, healthy foods cooked spicy and natural. used to drink crap liquor, now i get excited by a finely crafted cocktail. with love, i don't want the Carlos Rossi, i gotta taste for something finer in mind and i don't feel like i have to compromise excitement, joy or my sexuality to get there. unless i die, one day it will come to pass.

p.s. i just started a life challenge of sorts with a group of people, so i'm cutting out almost all the sugar in my diet for a while... .and i realize now that this is why food is on my mind!  so, since i ain't eating it for a while, here is my ode to ICE CREAM! ICE CREAM! ICE CREAM! ICE CREAM! ICE CREAM! ICE CREAM! ICE CREAM! ICE CREAM! ICE CREAM! ICE CREAM! OH BELOVED SWEETS! GOOD HEAVENS CHOCOLATE! OH THE LATE NIGHT TWIX HOW I AM BETWIXT! OH THE EARLY MORNING PAN DULCE HOW I MISS YOU!

ok, sorry had to get that out

[Skip]

If I look at myself honestly, at my ACTIONS, I have to say that no, I don’t want healthy relationships.  I am too drawn to the type of unhealthy relationship described above, and that is what I really want.  

This is good self-awareness.

You both entered into a "very high risk" relationship - regardless of the personalities - there was going to be carnage before it was over.  I don't know all the details, but it seems the damage has been largely contained between the two of you and that's a blessing.

I have been thinking a lot recently about my FOO, how experiences with them may have led me to desire the unhealthy type of relationship, and I think therapy helps.  But, I need more help than that.  I need my own strength of will, and I need help from this incredibly helpful community as well.  I have to break my addiction to these kind of relationships, relationships that have all the trappings of fantasy (being predicated on beauty and flattery and magical thinking) so that I can enjoy my life and not end up sad and lonely.  Because I know that is reality if I don’t break the addiction.

Really good analysis. "Strength of will" is insightful.  I know when I went through therapy, there was something missing and I couldn't put my hand on it.  It was exactly this, "strength of will". At the end of my recovery, I spent some time with leader from my faith who did something very different that the others - he didn't coddle me - he told me to step up / man up.  

[Skip]

As for my ex: her pathology needs not to matter to me any more.  I am not optimistic about her chance of being healthy. She doesn’t even realize that our relationship can’t be anything BUT unhealthy if it persists, for example, and she continues to test my NC boundary, emailing me through work email (unusually) today and saying “Hope you are well.”  

Is the NC triggering her anxiety?  Yours?    Sometimes it sends a big message like "I want you so bad I need these wall to protect me from my desires for you".  :)o you have the "strength of will" to open the gate a little and send a message of ambivalence?

"Hope you are well."

"Thanks. Doing much better. Headed to the shore with the family this weekend."example only

[myself]

So now, the mission has to be: figuring out how to get myself to a point where I want healthy relationships for real.  

The healthier you become, which is definitely in motion, the clearer your thoughts will be, the better your actions, and the more ready/balanced you'll be to share it with someone else who is on a similar level.

[BacknthSaddle]

As for my ex: her pathology needs not to matter to me any more.  I am not optimistic about her chance of being healthy. She doesn’t even realize that our relationship can’t be anything BUT unhealthy if it persists, for example, and she continues to test my NC boundary, emailing me through work email (unusually) today and saying “Hope you are well.”  

Is the NC triggering her anxiety?  Yours?    Sometimes it sends a big message like "I want you so bad I need these wall to protect me from my desires for you".  :)o you have the "strength of will" to open the gate a little and send a message of ambivalence?

"Hope you are well."

"Thanks. Doing much better. Headed to the shore with the family this weekend."example only

This is a good questions.  The NC doesn't really trigger anxiety for me; the longer it lasts, the more at peace I feel. But, responding to outreach triggers my anxiety, because even trivial responses lead to further responses from her, one of which is almost always boundary violating, and then this ends up leading to disputes. I made it clear that I was tired of fighting and that, given that every contact led to a fight, I did not want to have any.  I believe that this triggers her anxiety, yes.

That said, I do want to get to the point you describe, at which my will is strong enough that I can open the gate a little, but that I can prevent her from crashing through it should she attempt to. 

[BacknthSaddle]

i don't think i was or am drawn to drama, actually quite repulsed by it. i did deal with a lot of drama with uBPDx though but cut things off i think before my subconscious 'deal breakers' occurred. it's actually hard for me to understand the intense highs and lows that others have experienced.

i believe many here may have codependent traits but i think i may have some commitment issues.

looking back at my healthy r/s though, i don't see any lack of magic or love/intensity. sometimes i feel as if 'healthy' can be equated to 'boring', and i don't think this is true.

I think we were all drawn to our exes for different reasons and all had different experiences to some degree.  There are undoubtedly many aspects of pwBPD that draw us in.  In my case, I think it truly is the "drama,"" or at least the intensity of emotion, regardless of quality. 

I agree that equating "healthy" to boring is reductionist and silly.  That said, "not boring" doesn't have to be equivalent to "always on the edge of disaster."  It is not necessary to be on the edge of disaster to have a very enjoyable sex life, for example, or to enjoy other parts of a relationship. 

People often describe relationships with pwBPD as "roller coasters," but I think this metaphor is inadequate, because roller coasters, while enjoyable and exhilarating, are ultimately very safe.  There is a feeling of genuine excitement with an unspoken understanding of security.  This, to me, describes a healthy "love" relationship.  The problem comes when you don't find roller coasters satisfying and feel the need to jump out of a plane, risking your life in the process, in order to find excitement. 

[BacknthSaddle]

I thought I had a pretty normal upbringing,  but looking at it now I can see that my parents had a very unloving relationship.  I had a histrionic for a mother and an emotionally detached father.  It's left me with a multitude of issues that I never knew I had.

Hero complex,  people pleaser,  problem solver,  avoidant tendencies.

I had a fight with my (67-year-old) mother recently.  It was the kind of fight we'd had a million times, but this time I looked at it in a whole new light.  Without going into detail, I'll just say that her complaint (she instigated the fight) was exceedingly childish, and the whole fight was not the kind that is appropriate between a mother and son, in the sense that the relationship felt INSECURE during the fight.  Like, she cast doubt (preposterously) on whether I "really liked her" or "cared about her." While she was staying in my home.  And I thought... .how have I convinced myself that this behavior was normal for thirty-five years?  I've gone through my whole life worried that the slightest mistake could infuriate her or send her into a sea or self-pity or both. 

The truth is that she raised me on her own and I have been quite successful, and much of the good about me is due to her, of course.  But I'm realizing how it wasn't that rosy, and that the way in which it wasn't rosy has led to some of my problems.

[BacknthSaddle]

One more quick point on a point that goldy made. I agree that healthy relationships aren't inherently boring, but ALL relationships have moments of boredom within them. This is inevitable when you spend most hours of the day most days a week with someone for years and years. How you handle the boredom is a marker of your relationship health. Do you try to cultivate new interests or pursue new adventures together? Do you pursue independent interests and then attempt to engage your partner in them? Do you experiment sexually in an emotionally secure environment? Etc.

PwBPD handle boredom by acting impulsively, cheating, and manufacturing conflict. As a result, the boredom is rarely felt, because of course these actions produce excitement for both parties, even if the excitement is unwelcome. I know my ex will always cope with relationship boredom in this way, and so a healthy relationship with her is not in the cards. So now I have to learn how to handle it myself.

[goldylamont]

One more quick point on a point that goldy made. I agree that healthy relationships aren't inherently boring, but ALL relationships have moments of boredom within them. This is inevitable when you spend most hours of the day most days a week with someone for years and years. How you handle the boredom is a marker of your relationship health. Do you try to cultivate new interests or pursue new adventures together? Do you pursue independent interests and then attempt to engage your partner in them? Do you experiment sexually in an emotionally secure environment? Etc.

PwBPD handle boredom by acting impulsively, cheating, and manufacturing conflict. As a result, the boredom is rarely felt, because of course these actions produce excitement for both parties, even if the excitement is unwelcome. I know my ex will always cope with relationship boredom in this way, and so a healthy relationship with her is not in the cards. So now I have to learn how to handle it myself.

very insightful BacknthSaddle. i concur.