new member, considering my options with uBPDw

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hello,
first post: just found this forum and joined looking for support in figuring out the situation with my wife and where to go from here. I already found some support, actually, reading through some posts and seeing that my experiences are shared by others. It's a relief just to know that the problems in our relationship, while they have been incomprehensible to me for years, do have a reason, and that all the painful weirdness is not just us, but follows recognized patterns.

We have been together for six years and we have a toddler, soon to turn two years old.
In the beginning my wife idealized me to extend I was uncomfortable with. Also, I found her arguing style troubling from the start, but we didn't argue all that much so I lived with it.

Later she had a breakdown when finding out the "truth" about me, some real things but blown out of proportion, and I didn't know how to handle it at all. I was confused and scared, but since she was obviously in pain, for many months I just soaked up everything she dished out and didn't stick to any of my boundaries.

Eventually, facing of constant physical and emotional abuse, I learned to keep silent about my truth, step around her triggers (well, as much as one really can when those are often not actually tied to reality) and just accept blame for everything. This calmed things enough that it gave us an illusion of improvement. We made a pact to move on and in that optimistic period we got pregnant, on purpose. After the birth things went crazy again almost immediately, and while the physical abuse is not present anymore (save a rare minor, hurtful exception), I now live in an unloving, controlling marriage that lacks any emotional and physical intimacy, and suffer emotional abuse on as many days as not.

At the moment I'm wondering if I should stay or leave. I'm leaning quite heavily towards "should leave", since my thoughts have cleared a bit and I can see the situation really is unacceptable. I am afraid of the models for communication and relationships we give our child if I stay. Also I really don't know if I can stay without losing what's still left of myself. I know I could be a better father and an adult model for my son without all this burden and control on me.

However, I wonder how much things might be improved now I better understand what's going on and have become aware of some of the communication tools available. I think I have the option of delaying to see how things might work out without damaging our child with the delay, as our child is shielded from most of our conflict - my wife understands how damaging exposing him to screaming rages is. (Would I be too optimistic to think that this show of restraint is a sign of improvement? Anyway, somehow this shielding doesn't extend to constant criticism, or not letting me express an opinion that she doesn't share, or other unconstructive patterns that our child shouldn't have to witness either.)

Also, well, I am truly terrified by the possible consequences of divorce. When the possibility of divorce has come up (in the form of her planning to leave me since I am horrible person) she has on different occasions previously threatened me with taking the child and moving to her parent's home town (a full days drive away), cutting me and my relatives from the child's life, alienating the child from me, and even suicide + child murder. These threats aside, my wife and our child have a wonderful relationship and she's been a great mum so far. I can't help but to worry how that might detoriate with the huge stress of divorce and all the fears and delusions which will inevitably accompany it in her experience.

So yeah, for my own sake things really can't stay like they are now. But also I fear what divorce might bring (I've bought the divorce book, Splitting, it's in mail), and also I fear how much pain trying to improve the relationship would bring - and whether it would actually lead to improvement or not. So I feel quite stuck and indecisive.

Couple of things I wonder if anyone can shed some light on.

Firstly, is it common for BPDs to lash out delusionally against people they are not that close to? It seems my wife is intent on burning bridges with my relatives, one by one. Does this fit in with the symptoms, or is it something else? They have not been close, so I don't see how abandonment issues would come to play. It seems she's convinced people are bad-mouthing her behind her back, turning people against her, and she's adamant of "sticking to her boundaries", ready to cut anyone from her life when she perceives them as treating her badly. (She has very few people left in her life at this point.)

Secondly, my wife has told me about her previous relationships in detail, and I don't see the same problems there. Obviously I only have her description of things, and she's quite blind to the possibility that there could be anything wrong with her, or that in any interpersonal conflict she could ever be anything but a mistreated victim. All that being said, trust her when she tells me that in her previous relationships there had never been problems and conflict at the level that we have had. So I wonder. Has she gotten worse over the years, or even only gotten BPD due to some traumatic events that happened between the relationships? Or is it maybe something about me that sets her off more strongly?

[Versant]

Hello,
first post: just found this forum and joined looking for support in figuring out the situation with my wife and where to go from here. I already found some support, actually, reading through some posts and seeing that my experiences are shared by others. It's a relief just to know that the problems in our relationship, while they have been incomprehensible to me for years, do have a reason, and that all the painful weirdness is not just us, but follows recognized patterns.

We have been together for six years and we have a toddler, soon to turn two years old.
In the beginning my wife idealized me to extend I was uncomfortable with. Also, I found her arguing style troubling from the start, but we didn't argue all that much so I lived with it.

Later she had a breakdown when finding out the "truth" about me, some real things but blown out of proportion, and I didn't know how to handle it at all. I was confused and scared, but since she was obviously in pain, for many months I just soaked up everything she dished out and didn't stick to any of my boundaries.

Eventually, facing of constant physical and emotional abuse, I learned to keep silent about my truth, step around her triggers (well, as much as one really can when those are often not actually tied to reality) and just accept blame for everything. This calmed things enough that it gave us an illusion of improvement. We made a pact to move on and in that optimistic period we got pregnant, on purpose. After the birth things went crazy again almost immediately, and while the physical abuse is not present anymore (save a rare minor, hurtful exception), I now live in an unloving, controlling marriage that lacks any emotional and physical intimacy, and suffer emotional abuse on as many days as not.

At the moment I'm wondering if I should stay or leave. I'm leaning quite heavily towards "should leave", since my thoughts have cleared a bit and I can see the situation really is unacceptable. I am afraid of the models for communication and relationships we give our child if I stay. Also I really don't know if I can stay without losing what's still left of myself. I know I could be a better father and an adult model for my son without all this burden and control on me.

However, I wonder how much things might be improved now I better understand what's going on and have become aware of some of the communication tools available. I think I have the option of delaying to see how things might work out without damaging our child with the delay, as our child is shielded from most of our conflict - my wife understands how damaging exposing him to screaming rages is. (Would I be too optimistic to think that this show of restraint is a sign of improvement? Anyway, somehow this shielding doesn't extend to constant criticism, or not letting me express an opinion that she doesn't share, or other unconstructive patterns that our child shouldn't have to witness either.)

Also, well, I am truly terrified by the possible consequences of divorce. When the possibility of divorce has come up (in the form of her planning to leave me since I am horrible person) she has on different occasions previously threatened me with taking the child and moving to her parent's home town (a full days drive away), cutting me and my relatives from the child's life, alienating the child from me, and even suicide + child murder. These threats aside, my wife and our child have a wonderful relationship and she's been a great mum so far. I can't help but to worry how that might detoriate with the huge stress of divorce and all the fears and delusions which will inevitably accompany it in her experience.

So yeah, for my own sake things really can't stay like they are now. But also I fear what divorce might bring (I've bought the divorce book, Splitting, it's in mail), and also I fear how much pain trying to improve the relationship would bring - and whether it would actually lead to improvement or not. So I feel quite stuck and indecisive.

Couple of things I wonder if anyone can shed some light on.

Firstly, is it common for BPDs to lash out delusionally against people they are not that close to? It seems my wife is intent on burning bridges with my relatives, one by one. Does this fit in with the symptoms, or is it something else? They have not been close, so I don't see how abandonment issues would come to play. It seems she's convinced people are bad-mouthing her behind her back, turning people against her, and she's adamant of "sticking to her boundaries", ready to cut anyone from her life when she perceives them as treating her badly. (She has very few people left in her life at this point.)

Secondly, my wife has told me about her previous relationships in detail, and I don't see the same problems there. Obviously I only have her description of things, and she's quite blind to the possibility that there could be anything wrong with her, or that in any interpersonal conflict she could ever be anything but a mistreated victim. All that being said, trust her when she tells me that in her previous relationships there had never been problems and conflict at the level that we have had. So I wonder. Has she gotten worse over the years, or even only gotten BPD due to some traumatic events that happened between the relationships? Or is it maybe something about me that sets her off more strongly?

[GaGrl]

This site can definitely help and support you as you examine your marriage and options.

Is your wife diagnosed with BPD? If not, when did you see her behavior as BPD related?

A couple of comments...

People with BPD often parent very well with younger children but begin to have conflicts as the children get older and begin to have their own opinions, wants, and needs -- that is, as the children individuate.

It is also common for a person with BPD to isolate a partner from family and friends, as well as to lose his/her own relationships with family and friends.

So what you are experiencing is not unusual.

Taking time to use the tools you learn here, to see if your marriage benefits, is a perfectly reasonable position to take.

However, if you decide to leave, there are a number of actions you would need to take to prevent your wife from taking your son out of your current living area and preventing your parenting access. That is when it will be critical to have a lawyer retained.

[ForeverDad]

Eventually, facing of constant physical and emotional abuse, I learned to keep silent about my truth, step around her triggers (well, as much as one really can when those are often not actually tied to reality) and just accept blame for everything. This calmed things enough that it gave us an illusion of improvement. We made a pact to move on and in that optimistic period we got pregnant, on purpose. After the birth things went crazy again almost immediately, and while the physical abuse is not present anymore (save a rare minor, hurtful exception), I now live in an unloving, controlling marriage that lacks any emotional and physical intimacy, and suffer emotional abuse on as many days as not.

My experience was similar.  I had been married for over a decade but my spouse had been oh so gradually worsening, largely due to her childhood traumas, her mother supported her abuser stepfather, etc.

I imagined she'd feel better if we had a child and she could have joy watching our child discover life.  Oops, eventual disaster.  Clueless me, I hadn't heard of this truism:  "Having children does not fix serious mental health issues, it just makes everything vastly more complicated."  And that impacts the costs of ending a marriage and all the added issues with custody and parenting schedules.

That's now in the past.  Our child was 3 years old back then when we separated.  We were in and out of family court from 2005 to 2013.  He's grown now, lives with me.

[alterK]

Versant,
If you are reading the books, you will know you are a victim of splitting. Not a perfectly descriptive term, but it's generally accepted. You are seen by your W as either perfectly wonderful, or horribly evil. Many of us (me included) have been seduced by the first part, only to be slammed later when we become the devil incarnate.

The switch is often precipitated by some change in the relationship, or the family dynamic. In my case, it was my daughter-in-law's becoming pregnant and then having my first grandchild. In your case, maybe your "truths," maybe the birth of your child, or something else.

SO's past relationships. One of the several red flags I ignored at the beginning of my romance with my wife-to-be was the way she talked about past relationships/husbands. The breakups were always their fault, never hers. She would admit no part in causing things to go bad. This is a typical BPD attitude, which I didn't understand at the time. This is ultimately a sad position for them to be in. If you always see yourself as an innocent victim, you have no way of learning how not to repeat your mistakes or how to protect yourself.

Making things better: A basic truth we often repeat here is that the only person you can change is yourself. You hope that if you avoid your SO's triggers, fix some of the things you realize you have been doing wrong, that their bad behavior will cease and everything will be hunky dory again. It almost never works. Once you have been moved to the dark side in their mind, it's close to impossible to get back to where you used to be.

A great deal of BPD behavior is fear-based. The instant your partner  switches to seeing you as evil, they begin distancing, erecting barriers, defenses. They are too terrified to trust you, ever.

With a child, things become much more high stakes. I don't mean to say it's totally hopeless for you, but I'd suggest that the first piece of work you have to do is learn to see your relationship realistically, not through the lens of hope. Then start making your decisions, and try to be patient with yourself. It isn't easy.

[livednlearned]

It's just as much "abandonment of the self" as it is "abandonment by other," if that helps to explain her behaviors.

Something threw a wrench in regular development and if some experts are accurate in their theory (like Masterson) then pwBPD rely on a "false self" to navigate the world and abandon the "real self" because it was too dangerous or frightening for it to manifest.

I found that explanation helpful to better understand the whiplash of emotions whenever there was a shred of intimacy or vulnerability in the wind. Both seemed to trigger fear and elicit the full force of the false self, making sure to diminish any hope of accessing a real self.

Since I was the person closest to my ex, I bore the brunt, like many here do. Having no self or a weak self meant there was no one to accept accountability or blame for his actions, so it was projected outward with me being the prime target.

One time my ex accused me of not visiting him in the hospital when he had his appendix out.

Except he was 6 when that happened and I hadn't been born yet.

You have to kind of look at your partner from the perspective of a parent to see what mode they're in, and what role you're playing.

How bad is the control? Are you able to care for your daughter or have relationships with the family members she is battling?

[Versant]

Thanks for the replies. It a relief that there are people who understand, people who know more than I do, people who care.

I don't know how to deal with the casual death threats. I received another one yesterday. "I will kill this family yet." This was followed up a bit later with the explanation: "Just stubbornly be yourself and see where that takes us."

I know that threats of murder or suicide are not to be taken lightly. And if she was to say something immediate like "I'm feeling so bad I'm thinking of killing myself", it would be quite clear to reach for help even when she is against it. And once last year when she said something like that about killing our child, I did call the child protection (she's still mad about that). But when she brings suicide (or murder) up in the context of "behave the way I like or else", it's not so clear to me what to do. I try to tell her that's not an ok thing to say, and she doesn't care. And calling outside help when it's clear she's not about to do anything doesn't feel right, either.

Is your wife diagnosed with BPD? If not, when did you see her behavior as BPD related?

As far as I know, she is not diagnosed. She has diagnosed depression, though, and has earlier had medication for anxiety, too. Also she's self diagnosed as highly sensitive person. I tried to explain her behavior from these, as well as from trauma caused by childhood + earlier relationship disasters, and also from reaction to my supposedly super hurtful behavior. What confused me a bit too is that her grandmother and uncle have the same black and white thinking and tendency for conflicts where they never give in an inch, so it seemed like unhealthy family culture was also there making things difficult. At times I was convinced her depression had turned into psychotic depression. Anyway, over longer time I started to fear she might have something undiagnosed too.

Things finally clicked a few weeks back when a friend gave me the Eggshells book, after I had opened up to her. (It took me several years to reach out to a friend with our troubles.) So much of what I read was so familiar that I was amazed. Obviously I can't know for sure, but there's enough that I'm convinced.

I do worry about being wrong, or missing something, though. I might make things worse by explaining aspects of our conflict by BPD when they are not caused by it, or I might be so in need of answers that I mistakenly think she has BPD (doesn't seem likely, though) or there might be something else she'd need help with that I miss because I think it's all caused by BPD. 

People with BPD often parent very well with younger children but begin to have conflicts as the children get older and begin to have their own opinions, wants, and needs -- that is, as the children individuate.

This makes sense, but is a painful thing to accept. You never know about the future, but this is something to expect and watch out for.

I imagined she'd feel better if we had a child and she could have joy watching our child discover life.  Oops, eventual disaster.  Clueless me, I hadn't heard of this truism:  "Having children does not fix serious mental health issues, it just makes everything vastly more complicated."  And that impacts the costs of ending a marriage and all the added issues with custody and parenting schedules.

Yeah... I really can't regret having the child - he's the light of my life. I do wish he had been born into a healthy relationship, however, and I am acutely aware that, under the circumstances, trying for a child was highly irresponsible of me.

Versant,
If you are reading the books, you will know you are a victim of splitting. Not a perfectly descriptive term, but it's generally accepted. You are seen by your W as either perfectly wonderful, or horribly evil. Many of us (me included) have been seduced by the first part, only to be slammed later when we become the devil incarnate.

The switch is often precipitated by some change in the relationship, or the family dynamic. In my case, it was my daughter-in-law's becoming pregnant and then having my first grandchild. In your case, maybe your "truths," maybe the birth of your child, or something else.

Things started to go worse a lot faster once I stopped working from home. Before that we had spent most hours of most days under the same roof. In hindsight, this change must have made her feel more insecure than I could have imagined. I didn't handle the increasing accusations and digging for "what was wrong" well, and soon things went to hell.

SO's past relationships. One of the several red flags I ignored at the beginning of my romance with my wife-to-be was the way she talked about past relationships/husbands. The breakups were always their fault, never hers. She would admit no part in causing things to go bad. This is a typical BPD attitude, which I didn't understand at the time. This is ultimately a sad position for them to be in. If you always see yourself as an innocent victim, you have no way of learning how not to repeat your mistakes or how to protect yourself.

Yeah, this is so very true, and it breaks my heart. She's been long searching for the answer to why her friendships and other relationships fail - why is it that "everyone sooner or later turns out to be horrible". She can't really be the only decent person around, can she?

The problem is, she has unquestioned assumptions and blind spots that make finding the answer impossible. I mean, if she keeps seeing hostile intentions in neutral and even friendly behavior? If she also becomes sure enough of herself to ignore conflicting facts and other people's points of view? And if she is blind to how strong her reactions are, how hurtful language and frightening accusations she directs at people when she feels slighted? How could she ever find "people who treat her with respect" then?

And I feel helpless to help her. She doesn't trust me, in fact she hates me, so I'm the last person she would listen to.

Making things better: A basic truth we often repeat here is that the only person you can change is yourself. You hope that if you avoid your SO's triggers, fix some of the things you realize you have been doing wrong, that their bad behavior will cease and everything will be hunky dory again. It almost never works. Once you have been moved to the dark side in their mind, it's close to impossible to get back to where you used to be.

A great deal of BPD behavior is fear-based. The instant your partner  switches to seeing you as evil, they begin distancing, erecting barriers, defenses. They are too terrified to trust you, ever.

With a child, things become much more high stakes. I don't mean to say it's totally hopeless for you, but I'd suggest that the first piece of work you have to do is learn to see your relationship realistically, not through the lens of hope. Then start making your decisions, and try to be patient with yourself. It isn't easy.

I think in these past months, already before reading Eggshells, I had gotten some previously missing clarity into how little hope there is for this relationship. Reading up about BPD hasn't made me feel more optimistic.

So yeah, I expect that to stay is going to be horrible. What I need to figure out is how likely it is that leaving would be even worse. I won't be there to protect my son. There's risk of high conflict divorce causing trouble in my son's emotional development. There's risk of my wife's suicide. I think there's little danger of not getting 50-50 custody (at minimum) eventually, but little danger is not the same as no danger. (She can seem so persuasive and rational, and apparently she even has some blackmail photos of her bruises from a few years back, when she often assaulted me - somehow she bruised as much if not more than me even though I never hit her.) And I must say that even 50-50 feels painful to think about, because now I'm there for him on all days. Also there's high risk of alienation attempts, which terrifies me.

So yeah. I don't think it's worth staying for the relationship. I wonder if it's worth not to leave for safety.

Since I was the person closest to my ex, I bore the brunt, like many here do. Having no self or a weak self meant there was no one to accept accountability or blame for his actions, so it was projected outward with me being the prime target.

One time my ex accused me of not visiting him in the hospital when he had his appendix out.

Except he was 6 when that happened and I hadn't been born yet.

Ouch, that's quite something.

What gets me is not the plentiful obviously false accusations, but wondering how much truth there is in the constant  criticism and blame. I mean, she has some legitimate grievances for sure, but a lot of the time I don't have the strength to calmly sift through everything she says. Often I have to try not let it register or it gets under my skin quite quickly. So I guess I can act indifferent and unwilling to accept responsibility even when she's bringing up some reasonable concern.

How bad is the control? Are you able to care for your daughter or have relationships with the family members she is battling?

It's... bad, but it's been worse. I have taken some privacy back, that feels essential. But I have no life of my own. Either I work or then I am looking after the child, or taking care of chores - I am expected to be available at all times. Outside of work hours our son is my responsibility, in theory. However, where ever we go with him, she usually comes with (save for the occasional short trip to the nearby park, or the grocery store - those trips have felt so liberating at times!), so say, visiting my relatives with him is out of the question. Also she tells me how things should be done and expects me to follow her "advice", so I am not really free to parent. She micromanages me constantly (and is angry at me because she "needs" to do it).

Having relationship with my relatives is challenging. I no longer speak to them on phone except on the rare occasion when I can do it alone, since my wife tends to find something she doesn't like from any of my phone calls, let alone those with people she is fighting. My relatives don't understand any of this and it's quite painful for everyone, and they feel abandoned by me. This is a thing that is pressuring me towards making some changes sooner rather than later. Especially it's just unacceptable that our child is not free to get to know his extended family.

[livednlearned]

I don't know how to deal with the casual death threats. I received another one yesterday. "I will kill this family yet."

I don't think most people know how to deal with casual death threats  

It's really good you're sharing this with people who understand what it's like to hear these kinds of things. Nothing in my life has been more challenging than trying to figure out what degree of danger I was dealing with, and I'm not sure that's a one-person job to really get your head around it. My ex would say "say goodbye to your son forever" and "I guess you won't miss us because you don't have feelings" and other things that pitched me into a type of fear I had never experienced. Have you seen the MOSAIC threat assessment? Gavin de Becker developed it to help men and women in DV situations kind of do what you're doing so you aren't completely guessing. Do you have a safety plan in place?

when she brings suicide (or murder) up in the context of "behave the way I like or else", it's not so clear to me what to do. I try to tell her that's not an ok thing to say, and she doesn't care. And calling outside help when it's clear she's not about to do anything doesn't feel right, either.

In addition to MOSAIC, another resource that might be helpful is Shari Manning's Loving Someone with BPD. There's a chapter in the book on how to respond to suicidal ideation when someone has BPD. Handling it is not intuitive and must be learned. The suicide hotline also exists to help family member who are dealing with someone who is suicidal. Have you called the hotline before?

As far as I know, she is not diagnosed. She has diagnosed depression, though, and has earlier had medication for anxiety, too. Also she's self diagnosed as highly sensitive person.

No one here can diagnosis, we can only share our experiences. But this combination of issues plus the mention of psychotic depression sounds a lot like my stepdaughter (26) who was recently diagnosed with autism.

What confused me a bit too is that her grandmother and uncle have the same black and white thinking and tendency for conflicts where they never give in an inch, so it seemed like unhealthy family culture was also there making things difficult.

Some experts believe black and white thinking is a safety behavior associated with autism.

there might be something else she'd need help with that I miss because I think it's all caused by BPD.

 

Autism is a way of being differently normal. So anything that can be comorbid with neurotypical thinking can exist for someone who is autistic. When my SD26 was diagnosed, it didn't really change much because the BPD traits are the same. She still suffers from BPD. What's different is that autism is likely a factor in contributing to those traits.

Things started to go worse a lot faster once I stopped working from home. Before that we had spent most hours of most days under the same roof. In hindsight, this change must have made her feel more insecure than I could have imagined. I didn't handle the increasing accusations and digging for "what was wrong" well, and soon things went to hell.

Insecure that she was at home alone with your child?

What gets me is not the plentiful obviously false accusations, but wondering how much truth there is in the constant  criticism and blame.

Wouldn't the plentiful obviously false accusations suggest her thinking is impaired full stop? It seems unlikely her thinking would be impaired in some areas and not in others. However, there are probably improvements that can help make things less bad in terms of how you interact with her. What are some of the criticisms she's lobbing your way?

I mean, she has some legitimate grievances for sure, but a lot of the time I don't have the strength to calmly sift through everything she says. Often I have to try not let it register or it gets under my skin quite quickly. So I guess I can act indifferent and unwilling to accept responsibility even when she's bringing up some reasonable concern.

Sometimes it's about separating the emotion (she's upset) from the content (you're why) and just focusing on the emotion, for the purposes of stopping it from escalating. If she is dysregulated, the goal is to not make things worse, without letting her leave boot prints all over you or worse.

Having relationship with my relatives is challenging. I no longer speak to them on phone except on the rare occasion when I can do it alone

.

You've claimed a bit of privacy and are learning about BPD, and learning about suicidal ideation and how to make sure you're safe, as well as ensuring the safety of your child. Do you feel it would be safe to make small changes to reclaim some agency here? It won't be easy, it's more about what kinds of goals you think are realistic, at least while you try and recalibrate and figure out if the relationship is viable longer term.

These aren't easy relationships, they're the most difficult. Sometimes we can make tiny little changes that make things less bad, which is not nothing when everything feels impossible.

Keep posting, it really does help  

[SaltyDawg]

I don't think most people know how to deal with casual death threats  

It's really good you're sharing this with people who understand what it's like to hear these kinds of things. Nothing in my life has been more challenging than trying to figure out what degree of danger I was dealing with, and I'm not sure that's a one-person job to really get your head around it. My ex would say "say goodbye to your son forever" and "I guess you won't miss us because you don't have feelings" and other things that pitched me into a type of fear I had never experienced. Have you seen the MOSAIC threat assessment? Gavin de Becker developed it to help men and women in DV situations kind of do what you're doing so you aren't completely guessing. Do you have a safety plan in place?

Suicide threat assessment should be left to the professionals or volunteers trained and certified in it.  There is an example assessment that the 741741 text line uses at https://www.mhanational.org/sites/default/files/RickyNeal_CrisisTextLine.pptx, look on page 9, this is the same assessment that 988 uses.  Death threats are treated in the same/similar manner.

If there is an ideation/plan for suicide/murder, call/text 988 or text 741741 if in the US, there are other numbers for other countries.  If the person is in immediate danger (weapon of choice in hand - e.g. pills, knife, gun, etc), call 911 or local emergency number.

I've done the MOSAIC assessment on my pwBPD, and the score for her is an 8 (out of 10) with a level of confidence of 167 (out of 200) when I did this a year ago (when it was really bad for me), most people score 3 to 9 on this assessment.  It is a very comprehensive assessment covering over 30 pages of topics, and will take about 3 hours to complete if done fully.

The safety plan is a good one that LnL listed.

Take care with self-care.

[ForeverDad]

Suicide threat assessment should be left to the professionals or volunteers trained and certified in it.  There is an example assessment that the 741741 text line uses at https://www.mhanational.org/sites/default/files/RickyNeal_CrisisTextLine.pptx, look on page 9, this is the same assessment that 988 uses.  Death threats are treated in the same/similar manner.

If there is an ideation/plan for suicide/murder, call/text 988 or text 741741 if in the US, there are other numbers for other countries.  If the person is in immediate danger (weapon of choice in hand - e.g. pills, knife, gun, etc), call 911 or local emergency number.

Yes, suicidal or death threats should not be left for you to evaluate.  Typically they're in one of two categories, (1) real contemplation or (2) manipulation, pressuring, or similar to influence you.  While you can do your own personal research such as with MOSAIC, leave the assessments to the trained professionals.  They don't expect you to handle that task.  The item (2) is a more common scenario, based on what members report here.

However, it is wise to have such comments or behavior documented either by witnesses or written or recorded formats.  Why?  Believe me, no one likes to have officialdom quiz or scrutinize them, especially not pwBPD.  They are almost certain to Deny, Blame or Blame Shift.  So without some sort of documentation - recordings, texts, emails, witnesses - it will be each of you saying the other did it and the responders may walk away.

[SaltyDawg]

Yes, suicidal or death threats should not be left for you to evaluate.  Typically they're in one of two categories, (1) real contemplation or (2) manipulation, pressuring, or similar to influence you.  [...] The item (2) is a more common scenario, based on what members report here.

However, it is wise to have such comments or behavior documented either by witnesses or written or recorded formats.  Why?  Believe me, no one likes to have officialdom quiz or scrutinize them, especially not pwBPD.  They are almost certain to Deny, Blame or Blame Shift.  So without some sort of documentation - recordings, texts, emails, witnesses - it will be each of you saying the other did it and the responders may walk away.

I agree with ForeverDad on this, at least in my specific scenario - my wife made her attempts to manipulate my behaviors (1), on 3 of the 6 occasions where she had a deadly weapon in hand threatening suicide, and after I de-escalated it by physically removing the weapon from their possession, she said to me "you aren't (weren't) supposed to behave that way" this is etched forever into my brain due to the extreme nature of the emotional event - however, she expressed something entirely different to the therapist when she was questioned on it for her most recent attempt/gesture with pills, yet another false narrative that she fabricated to match her feelings.

I  also had an acquaintance at a NAMI meeting, and we were comparing each other's wive's behaviours regarding suicide attempts (a morbid, yet fascinating discussion to increase our understanding of the true nature of our respective wive's illnesses).  His wife was a PhD in a STEM field (he was too), she is a diagnosed borderline, both are scientists, and his wife initially tried her suicides attempts for manipulation; however, each successive one escalated to the point where the most recent two she was almost successful in ending her life (taken by ambulance to hospital being unresponsive), so (1) will become an eventuality if it is not addressed adequately.

My wife also escalated her initial gestures (initially holding a 10" kitchen knife over her wrist - possible but unlikely to be successful), and the last one was an attempt where pills actually went into her mouth (if she took a few more pills it would have been successful).

Also, I would like to bring up the "gender paradox of suicide" where if men attempt/gestures suicide it is much more likely a real contemplation (1) whereas if a woman attempts/gestures it is a manipulation tactic.  While this article does not specifically address suicide within the context of BPD, it has some alarming statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide where men are 3-4 times more like die than women; however, women are 2-4 times more likely to make a threat/gesture.

These startling facts are in alignment with a recent NIH article I read (but did not save, so I cannot give a reference) where BPD men are 8x more likely to die with an attempt; however, women are 8x more likely to make the threat/gesture/attempt than a man - so the numbers of men and women who die are comparable; however, women make up to 8x more attempts than men do.  This is also in alignment with what I have observed on this site, where I have only read mostly about men being successful in ending their lives who were either diagnosed or suspected to have BPD in their family histories so the success rate for men in killing themselves may actually be higher than 8x that of women.  Whereas, I read on this site women who make the threats/gestures of suicide.  It might be interesting to generate a poll, similar to the DV one to see the results of this.

In the US/Canada, if there is a suicide threat (weapon/method in hand) immediately call 911.  If there is a plan/ideation call/text 988.  All threats should be taken seriously, as I have seen my wife escalate from stage 1 to stage 4 just as fast as she became emotionally dysregulated with mood swings / rages and others I have talked to in person have expressed the same observation.  However, while waiting for the authorities to respond to the location, if it is a woman making the threat/gesture she has an 800% (+/-) better chance of not actually ending her life in comparison to a man having the same or similar behaviors.  Lifetime death caused by suicide for pwBPD is around 9-10%, one in ten will die by their own hand - a very sobering statistic indeed.

Circling back to what Versant said, "alienating the child from me, and even suicide + child murder[/u][/glow]" & "I will kill this family yet" this brings the threat to a whole new level!  Murder + Suicide is several orders of magnitude more serious than suicide alone.  For the general population who are in crisis it is about 1 in 10,000 is also contemplating a murder too vs 1 in 5 for suicidal ideation alone.  Once you have proof of this (recording/email/text message/voice mail), you need to go straight to law enforcement, 911 in the US, bypassing 988 as this is far more serious than suicidal ideation alone, murder/homicidal ideation indicates possible ASPD either in the form of psychopathy or sociopathy, neither of which are considered treatable unlike BPD which shares some of the same attributes/traits as ASPD (both are Cluster-B PD's) that Versant has described and ascribed to BPD, there can also be comorbidity of the two PD's.

Take extreme care, as this situation has the potential to end very tragically.

 

I am going to reiterate, get irrefutable proof (record with your cell phone, voice mail, text message, or e-mail) of your wife's intentions and then let law enforcement handle it from there. 

Make sure you have a safety plan in place, get help from your local DV shelter (even if they cannot accept adult males, they can point you to several local resources), do not tip your wife off that you are doing this.  Also do research on attorneys for both divorce and criminal ones in case your wife turns the tables on you.

I have personal experience with a pwASPD - a step-brother who is in the top 100 list in People Magazine for his infamy - this raises the level of crazy to a whole new level and it is not predictable like BPD behaviors are.  I also have separate volunteer experience with another pwASPD, you need to care of yourself and your child sooner rather than later.

[livednlearned]

People advised me repeatedly to file a restraining order when I was married to n/BPDx.

It was understandable advice given what I was dealing with.

However, I found great relief talking to people who helped center the situation. They helped center me, and they helped center what was already an inflammatory situation.

My situation would not have gotten better if we acted without evaluating all possibilities.

My L and n/BPDx's L were the kind of people who understood the situation and they guided us to the least inflammatory thing to do. That was a master class in how to de-escalate a highly charged situation.

You'll know when you find people like that because they have great empathy for what you are experiencing while helping you get centered.

It's hard to think straight and make good choices when your nervous system is jacked up. When you get advice that jacks your nervous system up even more, it helps to get centered -- however you do that -- so you can make good decisions in challenging situations.

I can't recommend Gift of Fear enough when it comes to someone who understands situations like ours. 

[27yrsalone]

Versant,

I thought for a few minutes I was reading someone else writing what I have endured for the past 27 years.  I blamed myself for everything.  I have had marriage counselors tell me there are things I did to exacerbate the situation, but it is far from my fault. 

I pray you find peace.  Some day, I hope to find my own.

[Versant]

I thought there was quite a twist this past weekend. My wife filed for divorce. Never saw that coming, and it sent me into total confusion. Had I gotten everything wrong, how was she capable of doing that? I have wished for such a long time that if she is as miserable with me as she tells me, she'd feel able to leave. And now, out of the blue, she actually does it? Wow.

But guess what. Untwist: she didn't actually send any of the forms, but expected me to act to try and stop her somehow. In the evening she finally gave me an ultimatum: either I'll fix everything right away, or then she's going to send the forms. I feel quite foolish for not immediately seeing the shape of things and actually taking her at face value.

I don't think most people know how to deal with casual death threats  

It's really good you're sharing this with people who understand what it's like to hear these kinds of things. Nothing in my life has been more challenging than trying to figure out what degree of danger I was dealing with, and I'm not sure that's a one-person job to really get your head around it. My ex would say "say goodbye to your son forever" and "I guess you won't miss us because you don't have feelings" and other things that pitched me into a type of fear I had never experienced. Have you seen the MOSAIC threat assessment? Gavin de Becker developed it to help men and women in DV situations kind of do what you're doing so you aren't completely guessing. Do you have a safety plan in place?

In addition to MOSAIC, another resource that might be helpful is Shari Manning's Loving Someone with BPD. There's a chapter in the book on how to respond to suicidal ideation when someone has BPD. Handling it is not intuitive and must be learned. The suicide hotline also exists to help family member who are dealing with someone who is suicidal. Have you called the hotline before?

Yeah, the kind of fear you describe no one should have to face.

I did the MOSAIC assessment, thank you for that. The result was a 7. Thanks also for the book tip. I have some books arriving soon, can't remember if Manning's book is among them. The safety plan I've used as a support for planning in the past when things were bad. I've called a crisis hotline quite often over the past few years. It always just seems it should be my wife on the phone, and she doesn't really take well any suggestions of trying to reach out.

No one here can diagnosis, we can only share our experiences. But this combination of issues plus the mention of psychotic depression sounds a lot like my stepdaughter (26) who was recently diagnosed with autism.

I can see how you find parallels between my wife and your stepdaughter. From what I observe of my wife's interactions when she's not dysregulating, autism doesn't seem likely to me in wife's case, however. I could be wrong, of course, so I'll keep an open mind about this.

Insecure that she was at home alone with your child?

Insecure about our relationship. At that point we had been spending most of our days together, so there was not too much going in either one's life not shared by the other. Then I started at a new job that took me away from her for the duration of the work day, had new experiences, met new people (including women) without her.

Wouldn't the plentiful obviously false accusations suggest her thinking is impaired full stop? It seems unlikely her thinking would be impaired in some areas and not in others. However, there are probably improvements that can help make things less bad in terms of how you interact with her. What are some of the criticisms she's lobbing your way?

Big one: I'm "refusing" to fix things that are hurting her and ruining her life. For a while now the mot pressing one is how I haven't convinced a relative of mine to go along with my wife's demands for actions of appeacement for supposedly slighting her. Another one that has been a major issue for a long time is how I "refuse" to treat her with respect and instead "insist" on being passive-aggressive. I know I have this tendency, which makes this one of those cases where I wonder when she's got a point and when not. I know she's probably sometimes right, but then again she's also accused me of this, and followed up with a serious multi-day fight, on the grounds of me suggesting I'd make us a meal she didn't like (no way for me to know it before suggesting it), or making a cup of tea without asking her if she'd like one too (apparently I had an expression that told her I did it on purpose to hurt her).

Then there's a lot of what I could maybe fairly characterize as nagging: small stuff where she definitely has a point, but does not use a constructive tone, and maybe could also sometimes let something slide. Things like forgetting to check that the fridge door closes properly or forgetting to check under the dinner table for toys before a meal. I guess this kind of thing is quite common when a relationship is strained.

Along with blaming me for not fixing everything, what I'm most troubled by is how she critizices my parenting. At her best she can be really observant, so she could be a great help in supporting there, pointing out things that I could do better, but two things ruin that. Firstly her tone is such that it doesn't feel like she's trying to help me, or even help our child, but rather to build support for the narrative where she's the capable parent and I'm the hopeless parent. Secondly, it seems to me that a lot of her concerns are not absolute and should not be resolved by her telling me to do things differently: they stem from style differences that we should work out between us rather than me being bullied into doing things her way, or even her misreading situations because of her preconceptions of me, my capabilities and motives.
The one that is being brought up a lot for a while now is setting limits for our child. She feels I'm too permissive, which is fair, as I feel she's unnecessarily restrictive. But rather than seeing this as us being on different spots on a spectrum, she sees me as having a problem, that I'm not sticking to limits because I'm trying to avoid having to deal with the disappointment of our child. A fair concern to have, but misplaced I think.

Suicide threat assessment should be left to the professionals or volunteers trained and certified in it.  There is an example assessment that the 741741 text line uses at https://www.mhanational.org/sites/default/files/RickyNeal_CrisisTextLine.pptx, look on page 9, this is the same assessment that 988 uses.  Death threats are treated in the same/similar manner.

If there is an ideation/plan for suicide/murder, call/text 988 or text 741741 if in the US, there are other numbers for other countries.  If the person is in immediate danger (weapon of choice in hand - e.g. pills, knife, gun, etc), call 911 or local emergency number.

In a situation of immediate danger taking action is straightforwards, there's no question of what to do. With this kind of "start doing what I tell you to do or eventtually this will lead to suicide" it is not so clear to me. Definitely it shouldn't be up to me figuring this out - I'm not qualified, and also trying to do it puts me in a difficult position and she's using that as a weapon. However, I feel that reaching out for help against her will would honestly be less about getting help for her suicidal thoughts and more about countering her using these threats as a tool to pressure me.

All threats should be taken seriously, as I have seen my wife escalate from stage 1 to stage 4 just as fast as she became emotionally dysregulated with mood swings / rages and others I have talked to in person have expressed the same observation.  However, while waiting for the authorities to respond to the location, if it is a woman making the threat/gesture she has an 800% (+/-) better chance of not actually ending her life in comparison to a man having the same or similar behaviors.  Lifetime death caused by suicide for pwBPD is around 9-10%, one in ten will die by their own hand - a very sobering statistic indeed.

Thank you for sharing your experience. It was sobering, as weel as the statistics.

Circling back to what Versant said, "alienating the child from me, and even suicide + child murder[/u][/glow]" & "I will kill this family yet" this brings the threat to a whole new level!  Murder + Suicide is several orders of magnitude more serious than suicide alone.  For the general population who are in crisis it is about 1 in 10,000 is also contemplating a murder too vs 1 in 5 for suicidal ideation alone.  Once you have proof of this (recording/email/text message/voice mail), you need to go straight to law enforcement, 911 in the US, bypassing 988 as this is far more serious than suicidal ideation alone, murder/homicidal ideation indicates possible ASPD either in the form of psychopathy or sociopathy, neither of which are considered treatable unlike BPD which shares some of the same attributes/traits as ASPD (both are Cluster-B PD's) that Versant has described and ascribed to BPD, there can also be comorbidity of the two PD's.

Take extreme care, as this situation has the potential to end very tragically.

Yeah, it's terrifying. Saying those kind of things can't be ignored.

I'm certain that she has some level of suicidal death wish but no intention to act on it. Also I'm certain she has no wish or intention to harm our child at all (if I had doubts about this, I would have taken the child and left already). She works through my buttons to control me, and this is one of many twisted things she says to get at me. Just the most serious, twisted and terrifying of them all. But yeah, the cost of being wrong is unacceptable.

I have to say, as a control mechanism, it had worked before. In the worst times a few years ago I would have left, but was stopped by suicide threats.

People advised me repeatedly to file a restraining order when I was married to n/BPDx.

It was understandable advice given what I was dealing with.

However, I found great relief talking to people who helped center the situation. They helped center me, and they helped center what was already an inflammatory situation.

Thank your for this, and also for recommending the Gift of Fear.

I thought for a few minutes I was reading someone else writing what I have endured for the past 27 years.  I blamed myself for everything.  I have had marriage counselors tell me there are things I did to exacerbate the situation, but it is far from my fault. 

I pray you find peace.  Some day, I hope to find my own.

Thank you. It's been amazing reading the stories here, finding so much that's familiar in other people's experiences.

[livednlearned]

Are you thinking the divorce papers are similar to suicidal threats as a way to control the situation (and you)?

On balance, a lot of the BPD behaviors are clumsy attempts to regulate other people as a way to regulate their own chaotic emotions. The question is how severe those behaviors are and how far they are willing to go to control the environment.

How do you plan to respond to the divorce forms?

I notice that despite initiating the divorce, she is placing responsibility elsewhere to complete it.

She seems to be testing her hypothesis that she's a terrible person you want to divorce, something she has suspected all along (it's her view of herself).

[Versant]

Yes, I think filling in the divorce papers is an other attempt to control me with fear. I don't think she's planning to go through with it. But like you said, it remains to be seen how far she's willing to go in the attempt to control me.

With respect to the dramatic arc of this, she's done something a bit similar in fights before. She's been adamant about doing something, usually throwing me out and then, when I already have my coat on, she gives me a change to make some big gesture. I guess then she "wins"? and allows me to stay.
It's the same here in that I have a strong suspicion she doesn't actually want to go through with what she's threatening to do. (As an aside: It took me a long time to figure out, but driving me out of our home in the middle of a fight is a lot worse for her than me. It makes me upset and miserable, but it also gives me some breathing room and space to think and calm down, whereas for her being left alone in the middle of a fight leads to panic attacks, dissociating, loss of function... So in the bad old days I was really confused by the way some of her most violently scary moments occurred at the door, when I was about to leave like she had - sometimes violently - demanded. Then she was either suddenly trying to stop me from leaving instead, or sometimes just attacking me - frightened out of her mind, like I now realize.)

For once, I'm actually ok with how I responded to her threat of divorce and the ultimatum that came with it. I didn't make any crazy promises like she wanted, and just told her I'll do my best to be good to her. Also I didn't accept responsibility for her decision regarding divorce, whatever that turns out to be. I just told it's her decision to make.

[SaltyDawg]

Versant,

I have some comments on your recent observations...

I thought there was quite a twist this past weekend. My wife filed for divorce. Never saw that coming, and it sent me into total confusion. Had I gotten everything wrong, how was she capable of doing that? I have wished for such a long time that if she is as miserable with me as she tells me, she'd feel able to leave. And now, out of the blue, she actually does it? Wow.

Even though you have come to think of this as an idle threat, or a manipulation tactic, and it likely is, you need to plan as though it is going to happen.  Much like her murder + suicide threats, you must take it seriously.  If she has thought about it happening, it there is a good chance of it actually happening.

My wife has made around 50 divorce threats, I had squirrelled away a $5,000 cash to be used as a retainer fee due to her threats of manipulation only later to be called out as keeping this money from her.  If you have actually seen the papers, and see the expense on your credit card/checking accounts (unless you maintain separate accounts), that shows intent.  Mine made threats, but had not done the legwork to follow though.

Also my wife had made 6 suicide gestures/attempts all to manipulate me, the last one with potentially deadly pills going into her mouth.  Again, under the advice of therapists, the proper course of action is to assume they are true, and 911 will be called the next time it happens.  Likewise, my wife doesn't think she is violent, yet she has hit, punched, and kicked me on several occasions.


But guess what. Untwist: she didn't actually send any of the forms, but expected me to act to try and stop her somehow. In the evening she finally gave me an ultimatum: either I'll fix everything right away, or then she's going to send the forms. I feel quite foolish for not immediately seeing the shape of things and actually taking her at face value.

No need to feel foolish for not immediately seeing the shape of things, in fact the opposite is true, you are much more lucent and self-aware than most having the ability to see through her smoke screens of manipulation.  Ultimatums indicate a very unhealthy relationship.  Since you indicate you are conflicted (the forum you are posting on), I am going to suggest to 'call her bluff', this will shift some of the power away from her to you if she backs down.  If she follows through, and this is a real risk, and you will need to serious think about if you want to stay in this relationship.  Unless she is self-aware of her issues and is actively working on them, my recommendation is to leave the relationship sooner rather than later.

From what you have described, in addition to BPD traits, she also has ASPD traits, which is a whole new level of crazy.


Yeah, the kind of fear you describe no one should have to face.

You are absolutely right.  I have literally stared down the barrel of a terrorist;s machine gun not once, but twice, and I felt a lot less traumatized than what my wife has done to me.  These kinds of relationships are really bad.  I too have done the MOSAIC, it is similar in score to yours, an 8.  The only reason why I am staying is that she has promised to work on her issues that she is self-aware of, and continually makes improvements.  I have successfully turned the tables on her.


I did the MOSAIC assessment, thank you for that. The result was a 7. Thanks also for the book tip. I have some books arriving soon, can't remember if Manning's book is among them. The safety plan I've used as a support for planning in the past when things were bad. I've called a crisis hotline quite often over the past few years. It always just seems it should be my wife on the phone, and she doesn't really take well any suggestions of trying to reach out.

Please be sure to have a safety plan, have enough cash on hand to leave for a few days, a bag packed in the car with spare clothes and other essentials, consider getting a burner phone if she has your tapped.  I too have had dealings with the crisis hotlines (988 & 741741), and your right, our respective pwBPD would benefit from it much more than we do, as I can say with reasonable certainty that my wife is in an emotional state of being in almost a daily crisis.


Insecure about our relationship. At that point we had been spending most of our days together, so there was not too much going in either one's life not shared by the other. Then I started at a new job that took me away from her for the duration of the work day, had new experiences, met new people (including women) without her.

Most persons with a PD are very insecure with their relationships.  Compare and contrast that to your home life, how did your new job make you feel?


Big one: I'm "refusing" to fix things that are hurting her and ruining her life. For a while now the mot pressing one is how I haven't convinced a relative of mine to go along with my wife's demands for actions of appeacement for supposedly slighting her. Another one that has been a major issue for a long time is how I "refuse" to treat her with respect and instead "insist" on being passive-aggressive. I know I have this tendency, which makes this one of those cases where I wonder when she's got a point and when not. I know she's probably sometimes right, but then again she's also accused me of this, and followed up with a serious multi-day fight, on the grounds of me suggesting I'd make us a meal she didn't like (no way for me to know it before suggesting it), or making a cup of tea without asking her if she'd like one too (apparently I had an expression that told her I did it on purpose to hurt her).

You are not a mind reader.  You also cannot fix her.  You cannot change her.  You did not cause this.  However, you can change what you do, what can you do to change your situation with her?


In a situation of immediate danger taking action is straightforwards, there's no question of what to do. With this kind of "start doing what I tell you to do or eventtually this will lead to suicide" it is not so clear to me. Definitely it shouldn't be up to me figuring this out - I'm not qualified, and also trying to do it puts me in a difficult position and she's using that as a weapon. However, I feel that reaching out for help against her will would honestly be less about getting help for her suicidal thoughts and more about countering her using these threats as a tool to pressure me.

No this should not be up to you, nor should you be qualified to make this assessment.  I actually got myself trained, as a volunteer, to do a suicide assessment, and that is why I shared the link, so you can at least be aware of the assessment process.  Best you can do is record the incident, and ring 911 if it escalates to the point of being a life-threatening emergency.  Also try to de-escalate it by validating their feelings; however, be careful not to validate the invalid, which are more often than not a false narrative.

Thank you for sharing your experience. It was sobering, as weel as the statistics.

You're welcome.


Yeah, it's terrifying. Saying those kind of things can't be ignored.

I'm certain that she has some level of suicidal death wish but no intention to act on it. Also I'm certain she has no wish or intention to harm our child at all (if I had doubts about this, I would have taken the child and left already).

My wife is also a good, caring person, with no intention to harm our children as well, when she is REGULATED.  She also had no intentions of becoming physically violent with me, when she is REGULATED.  She also had no intentions of being suicidal, when she is REGULATED.  I too have no doubts about my wife's intentions when she is REGULATED.  However, it is when she becomes irrational, or DYSREGULATED, emotionally activated, triggered, or in a an 'episode' is when bad things can happen, and they can happen incredibly fast, less than a second fast.  It is the Dr Jekyll / Mr Hyde personality shift that is so dangerous.

Recommended precautions - If you have any kind of firearms in the house, make sure they are removed, or at a minimum put in a safe that she does not have the combination to.  Same thing for ammunition, in a separate locked safe that she does not have access to.

A potential assessment to see how willing she is to follow through on it, is to call your wife's apparent bluff on the divorce threat, to see if she actually has papers.  If she does, that increases the likelihood of following though on other bad behaviours including the suicide + murder threats.

Take it seriously, make sure you can document it (body camera is a hundred bucks at Amazon), so when it happens you have it documented, and it cannot be turned against you like many ASPD's do with their victim and potentially 'frame' you as the murderer.  If you use your cell phone, test whatever method you use, and make backups on a daily basis and offload to a cloud site to keep enough room on your phone for daily recordings.

If there are firearms, consider body armor if you are going to stay, so you can put yourself between you and your child if it escalates while dialing 911.  If there are only kitchen knives in the house, wear a knife resistant shirt or undergarment (to be less obvious).

Regarding calling 911, just call, even if you cannot talk, keep the microphone open, it is being recorded, and they will send a unit(s), and listen in, so make sure you say truthful stuff like "put the knife/gun down", "please don't kill yourself", "don't harm our child" in a steady voice that is loud and clear, but not yelling, and try to be calm even though it will be anything but that.

If you have more questions, ask.

Take care with self care.

SD

[kells76]

Yes, I think filling in the divorce papers is an other attempt to control me with fear. I don't think she's planning to go through with it. But like you said, it remains to be seen how far she's willing to go in the attempt to control me.

Can you remind me if you've consulted with any local lawyers yet?

She may lack the executive function to follow through with her divorce threats, but she may also be impulsive enough to "pull the trigger" on it without thinking things through.

It can be important to be informed ahead of time of how things typically go in your area when one spouse files. Better to know in advance what to expect, and never need that info, then be blindsided by her actually following through (i.e. moving from threat to action of divorce), and not have a plan for you and your toddler.

Initial consultations are usually low-cost (sometimes free if it's on the phone) and even talking to 2-3 L's can give you a really good sense of who you'd want to work with and how things can go for someone in your situation.

With respect to the dramatic arc of this, she's done something a bit similar in fights before. She's been adamant about doing something, usually throwing me out and then, when I already have my coat on, she gives me a change to make some big gesture. I guess then she "wins"? and allows me to stay.
It's the same here in that I have a strong suspicion she doesn't actually want to go through with what she's threatening to do. (As an aside: It took me a long time to figure out, but driving me out of our home in the middle of a fight is a lot worse for her than me. It makes me upset and miserable, but it also gives me some breathing room and space to think and calm down, whereas for her being left alone in the middle of a fight leads to panic attacks, dissociating, loss of function... So in the bad old days I was really confused by the way some of her most violently scary moments occurred at the door, when I was about to leave like she had - sometimes violently - demanded. Then she was either suddenly trying to stop me from leaving instead, or sometimes just attacking me - frightened out of her mind, like I now realize.)

That's a good insight to have, that as much as she threatens/demands for you to do things, again, there can be an impulsivity/emotional driver component to those, where when she actually "gets what she wants", she hasn't realized how it'll make her feel -- and how it makes her feel is the most important thing to her.

Knowing that now, do you have some ideas of how to cope when she gets violent/threatens/demands? I.e., ways to cope that keep you and your kiddo safer?

For once, I'm actually ok with how I responded to her threat of divorce and the ultimatum that came with it. I didn't make any crazy promises like she wanted, and just told her I'll do my best to be good to her. Also I didn't accept responsibility for her decision regarding divorce, whatever that turns out to be. I just told it's her decision to make.

I think that's huge. Often, in a relationship with a pwBPD, there's a lot of overfunctioning -- "I have to do this for her, she can't do it/doesn't understand it/she'll rage if I don't". A big step out of the overfunctioning/codependent dynamic is allowing the pwBPD to experience the natural outcomes of their choices by realizing that you really can't control or manage the other person, only your own responses.

How did it feel to try that new approach?

[PeteWitsend]

Filing for divorce is one thing; the process doesn't actually start until one is served with the petition for divorce, i.e. a process server formally hands you the petition and informs the other party and the court you've been served notice.

Filing a lawsuit but not serving the other party is a tactic one can use for various reasons... in the business context to show another party that you're serious and ready to go to court.  In the personal context, and here, I presume it's an intimidation technique / bully move.  She thinks you're afraid of court, so she'll use this to club you into line.  She doesn't actually want divorce.  While BPDers abandon relationships all the time, when married don't typically just leave.

You absolutely need to see an attorney, PRONTO, and have all your rights and context provided to you.

As far as a couple of your questions from earlier in the thread:

...
Firstly, is it common for BPDs to lash out delusionally against people they are not that close to? It seems my wife is intent on burning bridges with my relatives, one by one. Does this fit in with the symptoms, or is it something else? They have not been close, so I don't see how abandonment issues would come to play. It seems she's convinced people are bad-mouthing her behind her back, turning people against her, and she's adamant of "sticking to her boundaries", ready to cut anyone from her life when she perceives them as treating her badly. (She has very few people left in her life at this point.)

Secondly, my wife has told me about her previous relationships in detail, and I don't see the same problems there. Obviously I only have her description of things, and she's quite blind to the possibility that there could be anything wrong with her, or that in any interpersonal conflict she could ever be anything but a mistreated victim. All that being said, trust her when she tells me that in her previous relationships there had never been problems and conflict at the level that we have had. So I wonder. Has she gotten worse over the years, or even only gotten BPD due to some traumatic events that happened between the relationships? Or is it maybe something about me that sets her off more strongly?

First, yes, many here have had experience with their BPD spouse causing chaos within their family.  I did as well.  BPDxw would go out of her way to pick fights with my mom and attack her.  Also to a lesser extent she went after my aunt or my brother.  It was really sad.  She would even allege awful things to claim my mom shouldn't be alone with our daughter. 

BPDxw  also had a mean streak (perhaps anti-social personality disorder/ ASPD?) and I recall her once telling me "[she] got [me]" after telling me if we divorced she'd never leave our new state so I either has to abandon my daughter to move closer to friends & family  or stay.   So she bragged about having successfully isolated me from my family and friends where we used to live.  that showed to me an actual malicious streak... she wasn't just dysregulating and struggling with her emotions, but actually planned it, or consciously knew what she was doing.

Sick stuff.  But yeah, they LOVE to pick fights with 3rd parties and attempt to drag you in... either to force you to fight for them or vilify you for not taking their side immediately. 

and they view all your other relationships - no matter how innocent - as a threat to them, and seek to isolate you  by sabotaging them.

Secondly, regarding their past relationships, I would not put any stock in their claims.  I assume that they were all as bad - if not worse - than yours.  Any claims that their exes were better, nicer, more understanding, etc. are most likely attempts to shame you into complying with whatever they want at that moment. 

If any of those things were true, it makes you wonder why they didn't marry/stay with their ex or exes. 

[PeteWitsend]

pwBPD are notoriously unreliable narrators & witnesses, Versant.  As you seek to move forward and try manage this relationship better, or end it and move on, do not get hung up on her recollection of events or version of who said what.  It doesn't matter.

They will lie to your face over things both consequential and not, and change the story minute to minute, even while you're talking to them, if it serves whatever immediate goal they're trying to achieve. 

In my case, in one example, BPDxw was the one who told me it was over and we were getting divorced.  This was after the final blow up, where she picked a fight and screamed at my mom for literally no reason, and then screamed and cursed at me at a little kid's birthday party in front of other adults.  After I refused to accept her half-ass apology or normalize her behavior by accepting part of the blame and moving on, pretending to make up as we sometimes did, after demanding I "answer for my behavior" and I refused, SHE told me "we're getting divorced then."

Yet not even  a week later, after I had moved out, signed a lease and sued her for divorce, she was saying to me and to others that "I had abandoned the family" and "I left the marriage"...

As soon as she decided playing the victim card served her purposes better, she "re-wrote the script" to have me being the one who callously ended it and walked out on her, to her shock and disbelief. 

So you see... there's really no point in playing their games, unless you plan to stay in the endless cycles of abuse, disordered thinking, etc.

Just figure out what you need and you want, and go do it.  Don't leave the decisions or rationale to them.

[Versant]

SaltyDawg, thank you for your perspective and advice.

I try and not take any of the threats lightly. The threat of divorce doesn't bother me too much, since I kind of want her to go through with it (hence it very modest hasn't been too hard to call her supposed bluff). I think divorce is fairly likely anyway, and things might go a bit better if she is the one making the initiative. Or then not, if she feels once again the powerless victim who didn't really make the decision for herself but just did what I forced her to do. While writing this down I realize that this is quite likely, actually.

In any case, she seems to be backing down from the divorce threat. I think she has been rewriting events so that she thinks she somehow got what she wanted from the episode. I guess I'll know for  sure if she later accuses me of not fulfilling some promise I didn't actually make.

All in all, your experience and advice are grim. I constantly find myself in disbelief that this is where my life is at now - but I realize that's something I need to shed, since denial doesn't help.

Most persons with a PD are very insecure with their relationships.  Compare and contrast that to your home life, how did your new job make you feel?

The new job was a big step forwards at the time. Also having some more time to be my own individual rather than a half of a couple was welcome. There, I guess, is a big part of the issue, as she must have been unconsciously worried about that. The other part I think was jealousy, imagining me falling for a co-worker at the new job.

Can you remind me if you've consulted with any local lawyers yet?

I haven't. In any case, I don't think either one of us can afford one. We don't have property or savings to speak of, and we are living off of my salary and just getting by. (It is scary that she has no income of her own, as it might make her all the more desperate when it comes to the possibility of divorce).

I have talked to a volunteer helping fathers in divorce cases, though, to get some idea of what to expect.

That's a good insight to have, that as much as she threatens/demands for you to do things, again, Knowing that now, do you have some ideas of how to cope when she gets violent/threatens/demands? I.e., ways to cope that keep you and your kiddo safer?

I think better understanding makes it more likely that I can steer situations away from disasters, especially as better understanding helps not taking things personally (this is so very difficult at times!).

I think that's huge. Often, in a relationship with a pwBPD, there's a lot of overfunctioning -- "I have to do this for her, she can't do it/doesn't understand it/she'll rage if I don't". A big step out of the overfunctioning/codependent dynamic is allowing the pwBPD to experience the natural outcomes of their choices by realizing that you really can't control or manage the other person, only your own responses.

How did it feel to try that new approach?

It felt empowering. I guess this was a good situation for trying a healthier approach, since her threat wasn't as frightening to me as she hoped, so it was easier for me to stay composed. I haven't had many recent experiences of standing up for myself and feeling ok about it afterwards, so this was valuable. I hope this experience helps me to try and do the same again.

About codependency, I've had a lot of that. Still do, I guess, but I realize it now and try to resist it. I've done us the huge disservice of taking responsibility for her emotions, and going to lengths to shield her from the consequences of her own actions.

Sick stuff.  But yeah, they LOVE to pick fights with 3rd parties and attempt to drag you in... either to force you to fight for them or vilify you for not taking their side immediately. 

and they view all your other relationships - no matter how innocent - as a threat to them, and seek to isolate you  by sabotaging them.

Thanks for your answer to my earlier question (and other things in your response). This isolating behaviour is one of the things that feels the hardest for me to stomach.

Secondly, regarding their past relationships, I would not put any stock in their claims.  I assume that they were all as bad - if not worse - than yours.  Any claims that their exes were better, nicer, more understanding, etc. are most likely attempts to shame you into complying with whatever they want at that moment. 

If any of those things were true, it makes you wonder why they didn't marry/stay with their ex or exes. 

I know her accounts are unreliable, I've seen it often enough. In this I believe her up to a point, though. She's not trying to portray her exes as great to get at me: she tells me those relationships were miserable too. Just that things didn't get as out of hand as they have with us. Oh, she does also compare me to her exes on occassion, like "they were bad, but at least they had this or that redeeming quality, unlike me". But that's a different issue, I think.

As soon as she decided playing the victim card served her purposes better, she "re-wrote the script" to have me being the one who callously ended it and walked out on her, to her shock and disbelief. 

Yeah, this sounds familiar. I've occassionally had the misfortune of overhearing her on the phone telling a sympathetic person about some fight we have had, and it's just incredible. I've even interrupted her mid call to deny some particuliarly outrageous claim (this obviously helped no one, so shame on me).

So you see... there's really no point in playing their games, unless you plan to stay in the endless cycles of abuse, disordered thinking, etc.

Just figure out what you need and you want, and go do it.  Don't leave the decisions or rationale to them.

This is fair advice, thanks.

[Versant]

Learning about bpd gave some hope for a short while. Understanding leads to solutions, after all.

Now, not long after, I've spent what hopeful energy I got and everything just seems that much more impossible.

Finally got the books I ordered a while back. Talking to a loved one with BPD and Splitting. Splitting tells me my wife shows most of the warning signs of being a persuasive blamer. I was already scared of divorce, or even approaching the matter with her. Now I'm even more scared.

I'm not a brave person. Also, I abhor conflict, so much so that it's a character flaw that causes trouble in my life. Rocking the boat is the last thing I ever want to do.

I thought at the very least I had some time to make plans and gather my strength before taking any action. Also I thought I might try to ease into things, try setting some minor boundaries and work my way up from there. Turns out that's not really an option.

We have sort of a life plan for the coming years, and trying for a second child is coming up. My wife has brought this up, and is expecting us to start trying. I have not yet conflicted her on this, I haven't had the nerve. But the situation doesn't really leave me all that many options: starting to try for a child less than two weeks after divorce and suicide have been brought up in threats doesn't seem like a sane thing to do.

So if I plan to tell her that I no longer think the second child is an option for us, how much less upsetting is that for her than would be if I were to tell her I want a divorce? Not much, I think.

So yeah. To be safe, planning to call the local shelter to check with them that my safety plan makes sense. Other than that, I don't know. I really don't know how in the world will I manage.

There are some doctor's checkups and such we have planned to do first, so I probably can postpone this over Christmas and New year, but not much more. And it feels like a dishonest and cowardly thing to do to pretend to go along with it. But maybe still the best, to do what I can to prepare. I don't know.

[EyesUp]

Hello Versant.

I'll offer a few thoughts.

Some of the general marriage improvement / marriage repair literature promotes some version of "radical acceptance".  For the longest time, I understood this to mean that you must learn to accept your partner.  I'll bypass the parables and lessons and fast forward to the real lesson (for me):  Radical acceptance, in my case, was learning to accept what I could change in myself.

Do we need to accept that a partner is abusive (physically, emotionally, sexually, financially)?  Of course not - though many do, and understandably so, when it is to protect a child or for some other noble or practical purpose.

For me, I understood that my uBPDx was abusive to me, to her family, to my family, etc.  Similar to your situation, my uBPDx was often resentful of many others in her life who she felt did not support her, did not appreciate her, or who abandoned her.  After 14 years of marriage, she was still upset about perceived slights and insults from boyfriends she had in high school and college, long before our marriage, and a lifetime of perceived favoritism re: her parents' treatment of siblings, and on and on.  So much unresolved anger, disappointment, jealousy. Occasionally there was suicidal ideation, and I often recognized it as manipulation and dismissed it.  Like you, I was conflict-averse and had developed many ways of avoiding the issue. 

Which brings me to your question about the possible consequences of disappointing her re: 2nd child, etc.

Your posts suggest that you already know the answer here:  It's about knowing yourself.  You've arrived at this point because you've avoided a lot, for so long.  Your self awareness re: avoidance indicates that you know this.  You clearly have a lot of fortitude in order to navigate the rough seas to get to this point.

To connect the dots in my long post...  the thing you might be able to change here is not how she will react - that's not yours to control.  This is where the radical acceptance comes in:  You do have the power to change how you feel about yourself, and your choices. Radical acceptance can mean radical self-empowerment.

I spent so long avoiding divorce. When I finally realized that I could accept the thing that I had avoided for so long, it was a revelation.

The thing to keep in mind is:  You cannot control chaos through avoidance.  You can only control yourself.

For what it's worth, my X did the same thing you described:  Filed impulsively, then told me that she hoped it would make me wake up and realize what I had to change. However I had already accepted that D was inevitable, and that I would not continue to repeat that particular cycle... 

Good luck.

[PeteWitsend]

...

Finally got the books I ordered a while back. Talking to a loved one with BPD and Splitting. Splitting tells me my wife shows most of the warning signs of being a persuasive blamer. I was already scared of divorce, or even approaching the matter with her. Now I'm even more scared.

I'm not a brave person. Also, I abhor conflict, so much so that it's a character flaw that causes trouble in my life. Rocking the boat is the last thing I ever want to do.

I thought at the very least I had some time to make plans and gather my strength before taking any action. Also I thought I might try to ease into things, try setting some minor boundaries and work my way up from there. Turns out that's not really an option.

We have sort of a life plan for the coming years, and trying for a second child is coming up. My wife has brought this up, and is expecting us to start trying. I have not yet conflicted her on this, I haven't had the nerve. But the situation doesn't really leave me all that many options: starting to try for a child less than two weeks after divorce and suicide have been brought up in threats doesn't seem like a sane thing to do.

So if I plan to tell her that I no longer think the second child is an option for us, how much less upsetting is that for her than would be if I were to tell her I want a divorce? Not much, I think.

So yeah. To be safe, planning to call the local shelter to check with them that my safety plan makes sense. Other than that, I don't know. I really don't know how in the world will I manage.

...

There's a lot to unpack here. 

It really sounds like you have some issues with yourself you need to resolve first.

And no one can tell you whether you should or shouldn't have a kid, but creating a life is an awesome responsibility, and I don't think anyone should allow another person - even their spouse - to force them to do so.  And especially if that other person is disordered...

I have a few thoughts, but not the time to really organize them, so I'll just group them together.

on the topic of having a second kid before you feel ready: Just make up a reason why you feel not ready.  Tell her its financial or you hope your other kid can grow a bit before you have a second.  If/when she gets angry, practice the conflict resolution or avoidance tips in some of the books, as a fallback measure to keep yourself from getting too intimidated. 

regarding your own conflict avoidance and fears: you need to get a grip on that.  you're a father... consider what sort of behavior you're modeling for your son by sticking around and taking this.  Whether you leave or not, you need to show him its possible to stand up and set boundaries and not exist as a punching bag and victim.

do you have a therapist or go to counseling?  I'd consider finding one.  if possible see them w/out your partner's knowledge maybe?  she'll likely view your self improvement as a threat and seek to sabotage it.

AND on the topic of preparations to leave/divorce... it can be overwhelming to take it all on at once. 

I didn't.  You can plan for it and make preparations to make the final leap easier.

For example, here are some things I did that I'd recommend:

- see an attorney and pay (cash) for an hour consultation on your state's divorce laws and get an understand of how the divorce will likely shake out.  People love to talk about getting screwed or screwing someone over in divorce, but every state has rules on custody and property division and guidelines for judges to apply when resolving a dispute; MOST divorces end up following the rules. 

- keep a journal - PRIVATELY - documenting all the abuse, and any other possible behavior that would be relevant to the court when deciding custody (e.g. suicidal threats, substance abuse, mental health issues, criminal issues, etc.)

- private bank account with emergency funds available for hotel stays/move-out costs

- private storage unit to move things to for safekeeping

The last two were key for me... once we discussed getting divorced, my ex went and looted all our mutual accounts.  She didn't get the money I was saving for our daughter though, as the bank mistakenly didnt put her name on the account.  So I had enough to put a security deposit on a place to rent to move out to.  Hilariously... BPDxw was angry with me that her name was not on the account so she could take that money as well!!! (I was the primary breadwinner and more frugal... almost all the money that went into these accounts came from me).

And I had several boxes of family heirlooms, pictures, etc. that I was saving, as well as some family furniture pieces I liked.  BPDxw wife HATED them, and seemed to view anything I had from before I met her as a threat to our relationship and a sign I didn't love her (she didn't take the same view with her own things though, of course).  And a few times I caught her throwing my things out or trying to. 

So with a storage unit, I could keep all this stuff away from her and not worry about her throwing it out or destroying it as I moved out.  and having the storage unit ready also made moving out easier.

So you see, big steps are easier if you Plan carefully, and make more manageable tasks. 

[ForeverDad]

She's not trying to portray her exes as great to get at me: she tells me those relationships were miserable too. Just that things didn't get as out of hand as they have with us. Oh, she does also compare me to her exes on occasion, like "they were bad, but at least they had this or that redeeming quality, unlike me". But that's a different issue, I think.

But the difference is they are exes.  Perhaps they didn't stick around that long?  And you're the current interest and in the front of her attention.

I recall my ex telling me she had others interested in her but just so they'd become legal.  She always put them down, well, until I was out of favor too.

[livednlearned]

I'm not a brave person. Also, I abhor conflict, so much so that it's a character flaw that causes trouble in my life.

Being conflict avoidant is pretty true for many of us here, even if the degree to which we are that way might vary. Especially if it's a way you coped as a kid.

In what ways does being conflict avoidant impact how you think about staying/leaving?

What is it about setting minor boundaries that doesn't feel feasible?

Do you see your wife as a high-conflict person? Or is it mainly that you think she's a persuasive blamer (to you)? Has she been able to persuade other people about her narrative?

[SaltyDawg]

Versant,

I will address some of your newer points that the others have not...

SaltyDawg, thank you for your perspective and advice.

You're welcome.


I try and not take any of the threats lightly. The threat of divorce doesn't bother me too much, since I kind of want her to go through with it (hence it very modest hasn't been too hard to call her supposed bluff). I think divorce is fairly likely anyway, and things might go a bit better if she is the one making the initiative. Or then not, if she feels once again the powerless victim who didn't really make the decision for herself but just did what I forced her to do. While writing this down I realize that this is quite likely, actually.

Calling the 'bluff'.  I was terrified of it for years, until I ever so slowly came to the realization that I would be better off if we did indeed divorce, at least the crazy making would end.  Simply put, I didn't have the balls to do it, so I hoped she did follow through with her threats which turned out to be manipulation tactics, as she knows deep down inside she got a good thing going - she instinctively knows not to bite the hand that feeds her even though she has growled too many times at that hand.


In any case, she seems to be backing down from the divorce threat. I think she has been rewriting events so that she thinks she somehow got what she wanted from the episode. I guess I'll know for  sure if she later accuses me of not fulfilling some promise I didn't actually make.

Cluster-B's (BPD/ASPD) will rewrite their facts to match their feelings.  I see that you have some good insight in being able to predict her future behaviors.  Cluster-B behaviors can be predicted with a high degree of accuracy once you learn them, even if they are not present in normal people.


All in all, your experience and advice are grim. I constantly find myself in disbelief that this is where my life is at now - but I realize that's something I need to shed, since denial doesn't help.

I am sorry it is so grim; however, I do have personal experience (step brother, but I did not grow up with him) with ASPD (according to 'psychology today,' who wrote one of the first articles on him) - it does not end well.  Your wife's homicidal ideation, and your description of your wife (less impassioned, and more calculated than what I typically observe in a pwBPD) leads me to believe that there is more going on the being borderline alone.  BPD and ASPD are both cluster-B PD's and share common traits.  Homicidal ideation is not a borderline trait, that you have shared, a murder+suicide threats puts your relationship in a whole new dimension (of crazy) - if you are not careful, your story could possibly wind up on Dateline and other crime-dramas like my pwASPD did.


Now, not long after, I've spent what hopeful energy I got and everything just seems that much more impossible.

Having been with two BPD women, one of which I am still with, I will validate your feeling that it is very difficult; however, since there is the homicidal ideation component, which is not BPD, that escalates it to a different level which is next to impossible to deal with, statistically speaking, you will have better luck at winning powerball than getting a pwASPD into meaningful treatment.  With a pure BPD, you will have a better chance of winning a pick-3 to make it better (approximately 1 in 64)


Finally got the books I ordered a while back. Talking to a loved one with BPD and Splitting. Splitting tells me my wife shows most of the warning signs of being a persuasive blamer. I was already scared of divorce, or even approaching the matter with her. Now I'm even more scared.

I too am scared, to the point of being frozen in my fear.  However, I am navigating, setting boundaries, and my wife and I are on a general upward trend.  However, only had self-hatred, but not hatred towards me or the children - no threats of murder, she cares too much for others to do that.  Even my uBPD/uNPD+exgf cared for others with no ill intent towards others.  However, she does have a lot of unfounded fear toward me and the children.


I'm not a brave person. Also, I abhor conflict, so much so that it's a character flaw that causes trouble in my life. Rocking the boat is the last thing I ever want to do.

I used to be this way; however, I recognized my character flaws much like you have done.  I am here to tell you, that you can work through those character flaws with an qualified, and personally vetted individual therapist - well worth the investment into myself.


I thought at the very least I had some time to make plans and gather my strength before taking any action. Also I thought I might try to ease into things, try setting some minor boundaries and work my way up from there. Turns out that's not really an option.

Why is this not an option?  Do take your time to make plans (in secret), do muster the strength to do it.  When you do execute, make sure you have a good exit plan in place, as you and your child will be at the greatest danger when you execute this plan.


We have sort of a life plan for the coming years, and trying for a second child is coming up. My wife has brought this up, and is expecting us to start trying. I have not yet conflicted her on this, I haven't had the nerve. But the situation doesn't really leave me all that many options: starting to try for a child less than two weeks after divorce and suicide have been brought up in threats doesn't seem like a sane thing to do.

So if I plan to tell her that I no longer think the second child is an option for us, how much less upsetting is that for her than would be if I were to tell her I want a divorce? Not much, I think.

Like others have said, I would not advise this at this time of having a 2nd child, you yourself have said the answer - you know what must be done.  Being mindful you will be doubling the difficulty.  I am going to be blunt, what do you want with regards to having a 2nd child with her, knowing that her behaviors will be just as bad if not worse?  Also, what do you want with regards to divorcing her?  I cannot tell you what to do.  I can share my personal experiences with you, as a peer mentor, so you can make a better informed decision for your particular situation.


So yeah. To be safe, planning to call the local shelter to check with them that my safety plan makes sense. Other than that, I don't know. I really don't know how in the world will I manage.

At this time, based on what you have shared, this is probably the best thing you can do for yourself and child.  Most shelters have a LCSW assigned to them (licensed clinical social worker), bring your MOSAIC results with you when you visit in addition to your safety plan.  Be sure to mention the murder+suicide threat.  Be mindful that they are mandated reporters, so if you mention acts of child abuse, or DV against yourself, they can possibly escalate the situation for you in spite of your protests, depending on where you are located, these trigger points are different from location to location - they will be mindful of your situation and work with you on a workable solution, provided that they believe you (when I tried this in 2009, I was blown off; however, things have changed since then), also be more persistent, I was very timid when I tried to do this, and it caused me to suffer in silence for more than a decade longer than I needed to.

How to manage, ask the LCSW, they can often point you to free, or low-cost places to help you out, I suspect they will be able to help you out at the shelter, except for shelter as the vast majority of shelters are for women, not men.  Also suggest contacting your local NAMI organization, mental health for your county/parish run by the local government can also point you in a good direction.  If you feel that you are blown off, keep asking until you get an answer that you are kind of looking for.

There are some doctor's checkups and such we have planned to do first, so I probably can postpone this over Christmas and New year, but not much more. And it feels like a dishonest and cowardly thing to do to pretend to go along with it. But maybe still the best, to do what I can to prepare. I don't know.

By all means postpone this any way you can until you figure out what you want to do for you.  You are not being dishonest and cowardly, if anything you are becoming more honest with yourself, and standing up for yourself which takes incredible courage to do, especially the first time you do this.

I've been there, tried to do this back in 2009, it failed, I am sharing with you the mistakes and regrets that I didn't do, so you don't have to suffer any longer than you have to.

By all means ask questions, and I want to be here for you, to listen to you, and to support you. 

Take care with self care.

SD

[Collaguazo]

Couple of things I wonder if anyone can shed some light on.

Firstly, is it common for BPDs to lash out delusionally against people they are not that close to? It seems my wife is intent on burning bridges with my relatives, one by one. Does this fit in with the symptoms, or is it something else? They have not been close, so I don't see how abandonment issues would come to play. It seems she's convinced people are bad-mouthing her behind her back, turning people against her, and she's adamant of "sticking to her boundaries", ready to cut anyone from her life when she perceives them as treating her badly. (She has very few people left in her life at this point.)

Secondly, my wife has told me about her previous relationships in detail, and I don't see the same problems there. Obviously I only have her description of things, and she's quite blind to the possibility that there could be anything wrong with her, or that in any interpersonal conflict she could ever be anything but a mistreated victim. All that being said, trust her when she tells me that in her previous relationships there had never been problems and conflict at the level that we have had. So I wonder. Has she gotten worse over the years, or even only gotten BPD due to some traumatic events that happened between the relationships? Or is it maybe something about me that sets her off more strongly?

Hi Versant,

Regarding your first point, my exbpd gf towards the end of the relationship developed a delusional hate towards my family members. As you say, she was convinced they were bad mouthing her, or telling me she was not good enough for me, etc. She would complain that my brother didn’t sent her a birthday message (they literally only met once) and then complain that my mother’s message was too “cold”. Another time she was raging because at a family meeting, she was expecting everybody to roll the red carpet for her and treat her like royalty. And at one point she was convinced my family was doing black magic on her and that’s why she couldn’t get a job .

As for your second point, at the beginning I also thought that maybe it was my fault some of her reactions. After all she was married twice and engaged another two times. So naturally I questioned how was she able to have long term relationships and with me, after 3 months, already painted me black. And like you say she presented herself as a victim.

But eventually, I learned that those relationships were pure hell and even more toxic than ours. She even cheated on her partners multiple times. So, at least I my case, she was actually worse with her previous partners. So don’t beat yourself up thinking you made things worse or that her previous relationships were healthy ones.

[Gerda]

Hi Versant. It seems like our situations have a lot in common, though with the genders reversed.

About deciding what would be best for your son: staying with your wife or getting a divorce, I recommend reading the book Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissistic Parent by Fjelstad and McBride. It goes in to the pros and cons of staying (so you can be there all the time to try to protect the kid from the disordered parent) vs. leaving (so your home can be a safe haven from the disordered parent while the kid is with you). It's a decision I'm also struggling with.

That book also has a lot of other great advice regardless of what you decide (since if you do get divorced, you'll still have to co-parent with this person).

When it comes to having a second child, I had a similar dilemma, but with a slightly different twist. We had to do IVF to have our daughter, and we had another embryo frozen at the fertility clinic to become her sibling later on. Then when my husband's BPD-like traits got so much worse after our daughter was born, I was really conflicted about implanting the second embryo. Especially after he started threatening to physically assault me, threatening to divorce me, etc.

I decided to go ahead and have the second embryo implanted anyway, and taking the risk of his behavior continuing or becoming even worse and then having to deal with getting divorced with two kids instead of just one. However, I ended up miscarrying the second embryo. It felt really weird grieving that loss but also feeling somewhat relieved. And really, the only reason I did that is because I had that embryo already waiting at the fertility clinic. I had already gone to all the trouble and expense of IVF and didn't want to just have it destroyed. I wanted to give it a fair chance to live.

But if I had been getting pregnant naturally? Then I probably wouldn't have tried again after seeing how my husband changed after our daughter was born.

So I'm not telling you don't have a second kid, but be prepared for the worst case scenario that your wife's behavior will get even worse after that, and then you might have to divorce her with two kids instead of just one. Is having a second kid worth that risk? I still feel a little sad that my daughter won't have a sibling, so I understand if you decide to take that risk.

[ForeverDad]

About deciding what would be best for your son: staying with your wife or getting a divorce, I recommend reading the book Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissistic Parent by Fjelstad and McBride. It goes in to the pros and cons of staying (so you can be there all the time to try to protect the kid from the disordered parent) vs. leaving (so your home can be a safe haven from the disordered parent while the kid is with you). It's a decision I'm also struggling with.

Just to add a bit of reality:  Most of us have to go off to work, leave to go shopping or do other errands, etc. So literally "being there all the time to protect the kids" is not possible. And they'd be in a stressful environment all the time.

I had no choice, my marriage imploded so I worked with what I had.  Though I started with minority time, eventually I did end up with majority time.

So I'm not telling you don't have a second kid, but be prepared for the worst case scenario that your wife's behavior will get even worse after that, and then you might have to divorce her with two kids instead of just one. Is having a second kid worth that risk?

Also, having another child (restarting a pregnancy, baby, toddler, preschooler, etc) could cause you to dither and delay a divorce or a decision to divorce until much later. 

[Versant]

Your posts suggest that you already know the answer here:  It's about knowing yourself.  You've arrived at this point because you've avoided a lot, for so long.  Your self awareness re: avoidance indicates that you know this.  You clearly have a lot of fortitude in order to navigate the rough seas to get to this point.
...
The thing to keep in mind is:  You cannot control chaos through avoidance.  You can only control yourself.
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Good luck.

Thank you. I guess this is what things mostly boil down to concerning my past  and up coming choices.

It really sounds like you have some issues with yourself you need to resolve first.
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regarding your own conflict avoidance and fears: you need to get a grip on that.  you're a father... consider what sort of behavior you're modeling for your son by sticking around and taking this.  Whether you leave or not, you need to show him its possible to stand up and set boundaries and not exist as a punching bag and victim.

Yeah, tell me about it. It's a shame I can't take the time to resolve my issues before doing anything else, since I need to be there for my child right now. And to be honest, I think it's extra hard to improve myself while I'm still in this relationship.

do you have a therapist or go to counseling?  I'd consider finding one.  if possible see them w/out your partner's knowledge maybe?  she'll likely view your self improvement as a threat and seek to sabotage it.

Yes, I do. And you are quite right, I went for quite a while with my wife's knowledge at first, and yeah, not much came out of it when all the while she was trying to make sure I was always concentrating on fixing the perceived flaws in myself that happened to be the most offensive to her at a given time. So for a year or so now I have booked the appointments without her knowing about it.

AND on the topic of preparations to leave/divorce... it can be overwhelming to take it all on at once. 

I didn't.  You can plan for it and make preparations to make the final leap easier.

Thanks for the tips. Small actionable steps feel like the best way to approach things this heavy and big.

I actually moved the first things to a rental storage unit for safekeeping just today. She has destroyed a lot of stuff in the past, like scissoring most of my clothes a couple of times (which is annoying and expensive, but just stuff, I feel) and shredding my photos (which is not just stuff - some of those memories are gone for good now). It's been a few years since the last incidence, but I feel a lot more at peace with some items with sentimental value now out of danger for sure.

But the difference is they are exes.  Perhaps they didn't stick around that long?  And you're the current interest and in the front of her attention.

I don't know. She lived with a couple of her exes for longer than we have been together. I don't know if it matters. I guess it's just me turning this whole thing around in my head again and again, trying to see if I've got the whole thing wrong or not.

Like now I've been remembering the time when things were just getting really bad some years back. She was apologetic a few times then. Like she replaced a shirt she had cut to ribbons as an apology, and she was really horrified the first time she had assaulted me. All that went away later, and she hasn't apologized about anything for years now, instead she's prone to declaring how she feels no remorse about anything and everything has been justified.  And I'm wondering, personality disorders should be quite fixed, why was she acting at first like a normal person who had been pushed beyond her limits and lost control?

Being conflict avoidant is pretty true for many of us here, even if the degree to which we are that way might vary. Especially if it's a way you coped as a kid.

In what ways does being conflict avoidant impact how you think about staying/leaving?

Yeah, my childhood family had unhealthy dynamics in it, and I've learnt to not to rock the boat from an early age.
It makes leaving that much more difficult, since in addition to all the quite justified fears I have concerning separation and custody and safety of all family members, it also involves willfully heading into a huge conflict. It might seem like just icing on a nasty cake, but is a lot more than that to me. It's going against how I have learnt to survive.

What is it about setting minor boundaries that doesn't feel feasible?

It's not that doing that isn't feasible as such; it's that I don't have time for starting small.

Do you see your wife as a high-conflict person? Or is it mainly that you think she's a persuasive blamer (to you)? Has she been able to persuade other people about her narrative?

She tends to escalate conflicts while insisting she's not doing so, that it's the other people making things worse. So yeah, she's a high-conflict person for sure. She's always "just" doing something. Just sticking to her boundaries (when getting super offended by some perceived slight), just telling the truth (when offering offensive characterizations in aggressive tones), or whatever.

But she can also be quite persuasive, so yeah, that's worrying. She can be very calm, sound logical and be so full of conviction... You need to know her, need to have been on the receiving end or at least witnessed it, to not be convinced.

I'll continue later, but post this for now since I ran out of time.