Can they be abusive and NOT have a personality disorder?

[motherof1yearold]

This has been a question on my mind lately!

My mom is a for sure case of BPD, but my dad on the other hand doesn't seem to have the traits- just the emotional abusiveness (and sometimes physical) So is that possible to simply be abusive with NO personality disorder or illness?

[pessim-optimist]

So is that possible to simply be abusive with NO personality disorder or illness?

This is just my personal opinion:

Abuse w/out PD? Yes, possible.

Abuse w/out illness? That all depends on how you define mental health or illness... .

If illness is the lack of health, then - no. No healthy person can by definition be abusive.

If illness is defined as a mental issue severe enough to be diagnosable by a psychologist/psychiatrist, then yes - a person does not have to be mentally ill per se to be abusive. It's really sad, but there are people who's moral character or personality is simply lacking.

But that is probably beside the point, correct? I am sorry your dad was/is abusive... .I am sure he has his own issues, and understanding those might make it less painful than if you thought he was just plain mean.

You will still have the need to heal though... .

[motherof1yearold]

Thanks for the reply


I guess I was just so used to dealing with pwBPD that I couldn't fathom him NOT having it! You know?

He could just be an immoral , mean spirited person.

[pessim-optimist]

Thanks for the reply


I guess I was just so used to dealing with pwBPD that I couldn't fathom him NOT having it! You know?

He could just be an immoral , mean spirited person.

That's true. People who marry pwBPD tend to have their own issues and weaknesses, so that makes sense.

[motherof1yearold]

Do you think any of the tools we use for pdBPD are also effective for abusive people?

[DreamFlyer99]

I've recently been reading a book about abusive men, and its findings seem to point toward abusiveness as a matter of "values." A person can have a set of values that allows them to be abusive to certain people (often because for whatever reason they've gotten away with it, be it because we were children when it happened and were in no position to know what to do, or because we were adults who didn't recognize it--like me!) while they may not be at all abusive with others.

In other words, they may have realized that pulling that abusive stuff could get them fired, so they Value their job and control their abusiveness at work. But within a family often the spouse will be the only victim, or it may be certain of the children, or all of the above. It's all dependent on what their values are and who they feel it's okay to treat with no respect.

Abusive behavior is generally about control and power is one of the other main points made in that book.

And I do think the tools translate to many other situations and are certainly made to be less triggering to the person we're dealing with. What are your thoughts about using the tools with your father? Do you just want to have easier dealings with him or are you wanting to talk to him?

dreamflyer99

[pessim-optimist]

Definitely - a whole host of them. Especially the self-protective tools that really are good to use in everyday life, that keep us safe and healthy.

Let's see:

BOUNDARIES,

Being Assertive in a Healthy Way (DBT Skill),

Conflict dynamics / Karpman Triangle ,

Arguing - don't engage,

How to stop circular arguments,

How to take a time out

These come to mind right away, I'm sure there's more.

An acronym also, that's proven helpful to me: don't JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) - when someone puts us on the defensive, starting an argument (not just talking about an issue in a calm way), we often take the bait by JADEing, thinking that it will help - often it doesn't. Knowing that we don't have to prove our point to have a right to an opinion or to have a right to do something in our life is a powerful game-changer for those of us, who grew up with someone who did not respect differences in others.

I think that the best place to start with in general is establishing healthy boundaries, as that is the most important tool that keeps us safe and balanced whether we are dealing with a demanding boss, a pwBPD or simply an abusive parent. The best book I have read on the topic is unsurprisingly BOUNDARIES  by H. Cloud PhD, and J. Townsend PhD.

Cross-posted with DF - those are good points!

[motherof1yearold]

I have been very successful in not engaging with him.

As far as communication goes, I have learned the hard way that he simply is NOT capable of having a normal conversation free of insults and raising his voice, so I generally disengage from that as well.

I can see most of his problems stem from a huge need to control me (and others around him). It has gotten so bad that he has hidden my car keys and the title to my car. The car *I* own. I got a replacement key and he went through my purse and took it while I was in the bathroom. I am treading lightly in that situation... .it almost seems unreal!

Not only that, but he takes my mail. I'm sure my bank isn't happy about the missing credit card payments! (LOL)

He's gotten so incredibly toxic over the last few months, that his girlfriend has left him and moved out. I think that caused a lot of the focus to shift to ME, which is why things are so bad lately.

[DreamFlyer99]

THIS that pessim-optimist said:

Knowing that we don't have to prove our point to have a right to an opinion or to have a right to do something in our life is a powerful game-changer for those of us, who grew up with someone who did not respect differences in others.

--so true! I would do JADE to the billionth degree before I figured this out.

Do you live with your father that he took your key and title? That's sending you a pretty strong message. I have a friend whose uBPDexh used to do that sort of thing to her, and when she felt the need to flee she left her nearly adult daughters in the house with him (she had to do things like sleep on our couch) and he did the same thing, upped the game on one of his daughters.

I definitely agree with Boundaries as the place to start, that gave me so much of the understanding that helped me move forward.

df99

[motherof1yearold]

THIS that pessim-optimist said:

Knowing that we don't have to prove our point to have a right to an opinion or to have a right to do something in our life is a powerful game-changer for those of us, who grew up with someone who did not respect differences in others.

--so true! I would do JADE to the billionth degree before I figured this out.

Do you live with your father that he took your key and title? That's sending you a pretty strong message. I have a friend whose uBPDexh used to do that sort of thing to her, and when she felt the need to flee she left her nearly adult daughters in the house with him (she had to do things like sleep on our couch) and he did the same thing, upped the game on one of his daughters.

I definitely agree with Boundaries as the place to start, that gave me so much of the understanding that helped me move forward.

df99

Yes, I live with him.

So right now, I have NO key to my car because of this.

[DreamFlyer99]

Oh boy.

How is he around your little one? Does he treat them well?

[motherof1yearold]

Oh boy.

How is he around your little one? Does he treat them well?

Generally treats her very well, but definitely has his moments that I don't like to tolerate

[DreamFlyer99]

Are you at all able to live elsewhere with your daughter?

I wonder if the legal board would have any knowledge of what you could do about things like your keys. Could you possibly go there and ask? I don't know anything about that, but it sure seems illegal for him to keep those... .

[HappyChappy]

This has been a question on my mind lately!

My mom is a for sure case of BPD, but my dad on the other hand doesn't seem to have the traits- just the emotional abusiveness (and sometimes physical) So is that possible to simply be abusive with NO personality disorder or illness?

In answere to your question - Yes. However the spouses of a BPD may inherite some of their traits. Look up "flying monkeys". My Dad is a very good man, but since retirment my uBPD has isolated him. When I went NC with my uBPDm I was still in contact with my Dad. He started coming up with hurtfull phrases, clearly influcenced by my uBPD.

[pessim-optimist]

Yes, I live with him.

So right now, I have NO key to my car because of this.

Yikes! How about if you got a P.O.Box that you would keep secret? That way you could keep your mail safe.

As far as the keys: any hiding place that would not be obvious to him?

[DreamFlyer99]

What's going on motherof1yearold? Did you get your keys back? Are you still there with your dad?

Let us know how you are, okay?

df99