What to say to this?

[cleotokos]

I've been LC/NC with uBPDmom for the last couple of months. We reached a standoff of sorts where I just kept trying to express my thoughts and feelings, and she would just rebuff and not accept what I was saying. A few days ago she sent me an email as if she's suddenly had a light go off in her head: I misunderstand her "intentions". She used an example where she had said I was like a cactus, prickly on the outside and soft on the inside. I had gotten upset that she said this to me, and she now says that she was paying me a compliment that I misunderstood. She says she appreciates people who are strong but soft. The thing is, she's many times complained about my short temper and "prickliness". She thinks that's who I am - but I'm only like this when she's around, because she nitpicks, wants to fight over any/everything, and loves to engage in circular arguments. I constantly feel exasperated in her presence. Her saying I'm like a cactus makes me feel that she doesn't know who I am at all, and also saying it's a compliment feels like she wants me to be this way? Sometimes I think she even delights in my exasperation. She always acts like a victim and like I'm being mean to her - which I probably am, but I feel I'm constantly being provoked by her. So my urge is to respond to her, explaining exactly what I've written above. But I know she won't "get it". She won't understand a single thing I have to say. I feel like all I want is for her to listen and hear me. I don't have the strength to validate HER feelings of being misunderstood. What to do?

[nomom4me]

Hi Cleotokos, I think you hit the nail on the head with "circular arguments".  My mom is the same way, she'll write nasty email after nasty email, it's all there in black and white but she insists that she never wrote anything "that bad" and glazes over major issues like internet privacy (at one point she read a relatives email account",  When I finally blocked her email account she wanted to send me letters, I can't really suggest blocking... . it just made my mom rant about that for 2+years, finally I had done something back to her that she could wail over. 

I think they just get so caught up in winning these little battles that they wear us down, think they won and fail to realize that by winning the battle they are loosing the war.  Recently I started asking my partner to listen to the voicemail she leaves for me, it seemed babyish when I started doing it but it relieves a ton of stress.  My mom has put a ton of stress on the relationship so my partner doesn't mind taking the precaution to prevent (or at least lessen) further stress.

[cleotokos]

Hi nomom4me, I think you're right - this is yet another situation for her where she wants to win the battle, not noticing that she's losing the war. I don't know why she's bringing up the cactus comment when she knew it bothered me the first time around. Anything I respond is going to turn into an argument - unless I say yes mom, you're right, I'm just not empathetic enough. That certainly won't happen. So I guess I just won't respond, since this email feels like bait. My mom too says nasty things, some very nasty things in the last round of emails we had. I'm tempted to say "hey, remember when you said x about me?" She was so horrid I was depressed for days and felt like why would she even want to associate with me if that's what she thinks of me? But I know if I bring it up it will be excuses, excuses and minimizing whatever she said which will just make me mad.

[Searsons]

Sounds exactly like my mother at times. She insists that because she is my only mother we should have a good mother-daughter relationship because that is one fact I can't change. As if a good relationship is a default situation no matter how the other one behaves. I've had the urge to tell her that to me she is a woman who gave birth (and unfortunately 50% of my genes... . ) to me and that's as far as this so-called motherhood goes. I've started to slowly understand that no matter how much I'd like to reason with her, explain my side of the story and how I feel she'll never truly get it.

Recently I have been caught up in a nasty situation with her as I tried to get her the help she needs for her other mental problems. The outcome was that she has at least temporarily cut all ties with me. The words she has used in texts and letters are such that I never thought it would be possible to be so horrible, especially towards your own child. I've kept all messages and was contemplating whether I should show them to her later. However, right now I really do not know if we'll even resume contact at some point - but it would be interesting to see her reaction regardless.

I'm a newbie here and I have to say that for the first time I feel like someone out there really knows what I am going through as a daughter of a (u)BPD mother. My mom has actually been diagnosed as a bipolar, but for a long time I've suspected that she must have at least traits of BPD since her behaviour can't be explained by "just" being bipolar. Strangely enough I feel like her BPD traits grow a lot stronger during her manic periods but maybe that is typical? 

[cleotokos]

Hi searsons, my mom kind of does the same wanting to be close thing. Of course, it is me who is the problem and stands in the way of that. I always felt like she thought I would be a built-in best friend for her, would side with her against my dad, and would feel sorry for her. I could sense this expectation from a very young age and, feeling manipulated, I think I went in the opposite direction. She would also take my love for granted and I believe she thought she could get away with a lot because kids are built to love their parents. I think there's something missing in her understanding of how human relationships work. I'm in the same boat as you understanding that no amount of reasoning or explaining will get her to understand my position but I can't seem to stop myself from doing it and I can't bring myself to validate her feelings, as is so often advised when dealing with borderlines. I can understand it logically, but emotionally I'm just not there.

[Finding Courage]

My uBPD mom often complains that I am cold, not open enough, not friendly enough etc. because I have to be so protective of myself when I am around her.  What she really means is that I am not as willing to be enmeshed as she wants and I am not doing exactly what she wants.  My mom is constantly demanding more "closeness" (boundary-less) connection.  And when she doesn't get it, she often resorts to more manipulative tactics, which is  the whole reason I am reserved around her in the first place.  I say don't engage as in my experience it never leads to anything good. Like you, I am also fairly unwilling to validate her feelings because that is exactly what feeds her crazy making behavior.  I also think my mom fundamentally doesn't understand relationships. 

[cleotokos]

I agree Finding Courage, engaging never does seem to lead to anything good and I had the phrase "don't engage" in my head the last couple of days. Thankfully she doesn't really ever push me to be more close but she does make a lot of comments about what's allegedly wrong with me, and yes being "cold" is of course one of those things. So I decided I wouldn't respond to the bait email but then she sent another one asking if I know when my niece's birthday party is going to be. Seemed simple enough so I answered and said I did not. It was just her "in" to now ask for us to go for lunch. I wouldn't be opposed to the idea if she hadn't gone off on me just over a month ago for something silly. I'm still upset about it and the fact that she keeps doing these things. So I just told her in as nice a way as I could that I'm still a little miffed at things she's said and I feel if we went for lunch that would be pretending like things are ok with us when they aren't. Cue another attack, I'm sure. 

[Searsons]

Oh yes, I am also the coldest person my mother knows. It's quite funny to see the same rhetoric being used by them although of course in reality it's not very funny to hear those hurtful comments. I also find it very hard to validate her feelings (even if it would be advised) and feel that I am just not ready to communicate with her on that level.

The lack of understanding of human relationships sounds very familiar. My mom seems to think she can treat everyone around as she pleases (meaning making and breaking relationships all the time) and then expects everyone to simply forget her horrible and mean words and actions whenever she decides it's time to get back in touch again. It took me a while to realize that I can set up my own boundaries and when I finally started to distance myself from her, it felt good. However, it doesn't mean that the situation and the person would not be on my mind constantly and that's what I would like to work on. 

[zone out]

I find that I can have perfectly reasonable superficial conversations with my mother - I always steer her away from potentially controversial subjects or anyone who is currently subject of a 'grudge'.  This really is the only way we can relate to each other.  However this only works when she is in a reasonable mood to start with - any visits or phone calls which commence with her in a screaming rage cannot be salvaged.

She has accused me of being 'prickly' and I would have to admit to showing irritation and quickly changing the subject when she comes out with all the craziness.  I too am having difficulty with the idea of validating her feelings - I just cannot get the hang of SET! 

Zone out

[Santa Clara]

I also agree with FindingCourage. 

My uBPD mother also thinks I am cold and uncaring, and for a long time I thought I must be, although I tried to be as loving and compassionate a person as I could. 

Now I realize the cold and uncaring lable is just a lable and, if anything, I may possbily come accross like that to uBPD mother as a way to protect myself and disengage.  And that is ok! 

My husband, children, friends and collegues seem to think I am warm, loving person (although after years of being labled cold and uncaring sometimses I punish myself for not being more warm and loving.). 

Anyway, this thread has been very helpful to me.  Thank you everyone for posting.

[Calsun]

Hi cleotokos,

Thanks for all the shares.  I so relate to this.  I was the one my mother split on the bad side, taught by her that I was a mother hating, black sheep.  The mirroring and projecting unfortunately of a uBPD.  I really spent a lot of my life feeling as though I had the mark of Cain on my head.

It was so corrosive an influence on me.  She would abuse me, call me the worst names, make fun of what I loved and who I was, beat me, and then she would say, why don't you want to be close to me.  She would call me a selfish cold fish when I didn't.  And, of course how could anyone really be close to someone so cactus-like.  Interesting that your mother called you a cactus.  Sounds like projection to me.  It's almost a little funny now as I write this, that someone so abusive and critical would expect her child to continue to try to draw close.  No healthy person would expect that. But the BPD is not healthy, and their brains function differently than those who are not.

And the uBPD doesn't know how to have a real relationship.  My mother didn't have relationships, she took hostages.  And the more they feel they can undermine your confidence in yourself, the more on some level my uBPD mother felt that she could withhold and abuse, the more she felt I would continue to work at winning her love.  And then I would never abandon her, which is the real goal of the BPD, unconsciously, of course.  It was the Stockholm Syndrome in a way.  Any limited affection was a carrot on stick.  My sister, unfortunately is still severely hooked into that dynamic with my uBPD mother.  She has never moved away from her for over fifty years.  Terribly destructive conditioning.

Hostages, not relationships.

Calsun

[cleotokos]

It's almost a little funny now as I write this, that someone so abusive and critical would expect her child to continue to try to draw close.  No healthy person would expect that.

Wow, I don't know why but this never occurred to me! It is quite ironic, isn't it?

She was calling me a cactus as a criticism - it wasn't until after I was upset that she decided it was really a compliment.   I just can't deal with someone who insists on trying to dictate reality.

[gloveman]

     You can’t win a battle with a BPD parent or sibling. Take it from me. I’m 66 and didn’t know that BPD existed until about 3 years ago. I just thought my parents and younger brother were crazy.

     The worst part of the problem was that I worked in a family business and had to deal with my dad and brother and try to earn a living at the same time.

     BPD people have no idea that they are  hurting your feelings. No idea that what they are saying doesn’t even make sense that’s why you can’t win a battle with a BPD person. Believe me, my dad and brother said things that made no business sense in their attempts to aggravate me.

   You have to relate to them the same way you would relate to someone who walks around saying 2 + 2 = 5. You wouldn’t try to reason with someone like that. You would just keep your mouth shut, walk away and not let the crazy math shake up your self-confidence in your ability to add.

     It is always the disease that is talking, not your parent, so do your best to not take anything personal or let what they say upset you.

     We are okay; they are nuts.

[cleotokos]

Hi gloveman. I know what you are saying, I'm not sure why but I feel lately that I need to hold her accountable for everything she says and does. I'm just sick of everything being put on me all the time. I used to be much better at ignoring her ridiculous statements and accusations. I don't know what it is but I feel like I need to defend myself against every little thing. I'm just so sick of being told my perceptions can't be trusted - all my life this has caused me to be a very confused person who doesn't trust her own thoughts and feelings. I'm really angry about that lately - mainly about the self-doubt that this has instilled in me. To see her continue to treat me this way, and to know how it has affected every aspect of my life, is more than I can take right now. I always knew she was nuts but I don't think I fully realized how it affected who I am until recently. Everything feels like an attack to me - I've always felt like that but lately it's been overwhelming. I know that you are right but I seem to have lost the ability not to let it shake me.

Part of my issue is that I can't totally convince myself she has no clue what's going on or what she's doing. She used to have explosions of rage and screaming at me, until I put a stop to it. I exploded back and didn't speak to her for a long time when I was 19 - she's never really raged at me since. Also the fact that she doesn't treat everyone the way she treats me tells me that she knows she wouldn't get away with it with certain people. So I'm convinced she knows, but the whole thing "works" for her. I guess I'm attempting to make sure it no longer works by calling her out on everything, in the hopes she can learn. She learned not to rage at me, so I feel she can learn to stop taking her little jabs and making her snide comments, then claiming they were really just compliments and it's my perception that's to blame.

[gloveman]

Cleotokos

    We must be related because I have gone through the exact same experiences as you. You are not alone.

    People with BPD always treat some people differently than others. BPD sufferers treat people who are not close to them better than their own children. The reason is simple. Strangers are not trying to bond with them. Children are.

    People with BPD are afraid of letting someone in, get close to them, bond with them, connect with them.

    They incorrectly perceive the attempt to bond with them as a invasion of their personal space. That is one cause.

     Another is they are afraid of bonding and then being rejected which would cause them pain, so they are always pushing their children away to prevent the possibility of pain.

    You have to look elsewhere to find someone to give you support and understand that you are okay; she is nuts.

     One day about 7 years ago I was talking to a clerk in the human resource office at work. She told me that my dad had walked into the office and told her that his nasty, abusive treatment of me was only his attempt to make me tough.

    It shows you how nuts he was. It wasn't until he was about 88 years old that he finally admitted that maybe he was wrong, and he was so crazy that he admitted it to the wrong person. It is none of an employee's business to know about personal relationships among the owners of a family business.

    He should have admitted it to me, apologized and asked me to forgive him. And, of course, by the age of 88 he couldn't change and went right back to being nasty and abusive.

   :)o you live in the Chicago area, because I am sure we are cousins?

(Just a little attempt at humor.)

[Taolady]

Cleotokos, we all respond in different ways and now you will see why my way gets me in trouble with my mom. If she insisted I was prickly, I would embrace it. I would make it my avatar, send hers cards with cacti on them, sign my notes with a little handrawn picture of a cactus with spikes. I might graduate to porcupines or pictures of people with spikey hair- anything to make it humorous and inject a little levity. If you can see the humor, it doesn't hurt as much. I think if I did it a lot, she might stop calling me names because the reaction she was looking for was gone. Always good to surprise 'em.

[cleotokos]

Hi gloveman, it's a wonderful thing about this site that we can find we have all had such common experiences. It's been a great relief to me to have my thoughts and feelings validated as "not crazy" by someone outside the situation. Something we can clearly never get from uBPD parents - it provides such wonderful healing. I don't know what's happened, I think it's in large part this thread, but I feel a slight loosening of my anger. I've done all I can, told her exactly what it is that irks me, told her what I find unacceptable. If she chooses not to listen then that is her decision. Our relationship will suffer and again, that is her decision - I'm no longer going to feel guilty about this. She said to me "why do you get to make up all the rules?" and I thought (but didn't say), well of course I get to make up the rules for how I need to be spoken to and treated. I have the right to not be around somebody that I don't feel is being considerate and respectful towards me. She claims I'm being "unreasonable" - well who decides what is reasonable and what is not? Clearly she thinks that's up to her alone but doesn't see the irony here. It comes down to her trying to dominate, and me not allowing it - which she perceives as some violation of her. Anyways, not to go on about it - it's feeling less problematic to me in recent days. I am glad I am in a position where I'm able to walk away, I suspect that wasn't really an option for you working in your family's business.

Taolady, I think my mother would really get a kick out of it if I referred to myself as a cactus. She'd just love it. I wish I could get to her in that way (wrong I know, but it would be so satisfying haha!).

[Breathing new air]

And the uBPD doesn't know how to have a real relationship.  My mother didn't have relationships, she took hostages.  And the more they feel they can undermine your confidence in yourself, the more on some level my uBPD mother felt that she could withhold and abuse, the more she felt I would continue to work at winning her love.  And then I would never abandon her, which is the real goal of the BPD, unconsciously, of course.  It was the Stockholm Syndrome in a way.  Any limited affection was a carrot on stick.  My sister, unfortunately is still severely hooked into that dynamic with my uBPD mother.  She has never moved away from her for over fifty years.  Terribly destructive conditioning.

Hostages, not relationships.

This tread hit home so much for me all around, but Calsum, your last statements hit a nerve. Funny, my mother would call me cold when I was not doing what she wanted all the way through growing up, but only when I was not doing what she wanted. IF I was staying perfectly in line I was ok.

The thing is for me, for the longest time I was that like your sister. I am the child that moved back to town and lived near my mom and dad for that carrot on a stick, the good times. When my dad died, they got fewer because mom wanted me to take his place and I could not. First of all I had my husband and children and second I just no longer had that drive. But my family was called if anything was needed and we were expected to come no matter where we were and what we were doing.  It was funny it seemed that crises always came up when we were somewhere we might have been enjoying without them.

Now as I deal with my past and my mother, she tells me she does not know what to say to me or that I am cold with her. She blames it all on dad's death. "He was the fun one and that is why you don't come around anymore". she cannot see it is her behavior. I got tired of being her Hostage. It was not a mutual relationship. I don't think she can understand that. I don't think any of them could understand. But I have really struggled because I broke away. I needed my own life and she could not let me have one.  So many things I see now. I am betting your sister cannot see them either. Because if she could then she could not cope.  When you are exactly what they want things do run smoother. But for me, I was a shell.

[chickadee]

Hi Cleotokos, I could relate to so much of what you said.  For a long time I felt that my uBPDmom doesn't know who I really am.  I suppose that's because she was never particularly interested in who I really am.  (We have been NC for about 6 years now.)  Allowing me to be myself when I was with her was too inconvenient for her, because I wouldn't necessarily be fulfilling whatever her needs happened to be at the time.  She would deny that of course, and cite examples of times when she was good to me, to defend herself.  And there were times when she was good to me, but our relationship in general always lacked the closeness and love that I wanted and needed, especially when I was very young, and I'm talking about my earliest memories.  Before NC, my mother liked to tell me that I didn't love her, and that it was my fault that we didn't have a nice mother/daughter relationship, and how sad she was that we would never have that, blah, blah, blah.  It was all meant to make me feel guilty and inadequate.  It certainly didn't help our relationship, but I don't think she was aware of that.  She loved using guilt on me, and I even got the feeling that she didn't really care if we had a genuinely warm relationship, as long as I acted the way she wanted me to, that was enough.  She actually seemed to prefer that we pretend to be a loving mother and daughter, perhaps because she felt it would be less painful for her if I rejected her for some reason.  People with BPD always fear that they will be rejected.  I tried for almost 4 decades to salvage some kind of a relationship with her, but I failed.  I could not be true to myself and keep her satisfied at the same time, and the stress of dealing with her got to be too much for me.

She never permitted me to talk openly and honestly about my real feelings for her.  If I tried to, she'd interrupt and start talking about HER feelings.  For my entire life, the message I got from her was that my feelings didn't matter and hers did.  She liked to paint herself as the victim of my cold and cruel behavior.  I am not like that though!  There are plenty of people who do know the real me, and will say that I'm actually a good person.   

It sounds to me like your mom likes to provoke you.  Having you angry with her is better than nothing at all.  The best way to react is to not allow yourself to be provoked.  When you recognize that someone is only trying to provoke you, that makes it a lot easier to ignore them, even if you don't understand their motivation.  If you say angry words, you're giving them what they want--something they can use against you.  It makes it easier for them to manipulate you.  Personally, I don't have the time, energy or desire to engage in stupid agruments with people, so I "kill them with kindness".  I try not to get angry and react impulsively.  That's why I like corresponding with difficult people by email, it gives me time to think and compose myself before giving them my response.  As for my mother, I don't think I'll ever be able to get her to understand me.  I think I've pretty much accepted that, which is why I'm able to have NC, but I'll always be sad about it.  It's often impossible to reason with someone with BPD.  I think you mentioned that your mom says you are "unreasonable"-- to me, that sounds a lot like she's attempting to project her own unreasonable nature onto you.   

[cleotokos]

She never permitted me to talk openly and honestly about my real feelings for her.  If I tried to, she'd interrupt and start talking about HER feelings.  For my entire life, the message I got from her was that my feelings didn't matter and hers did.  She liked to paint herself as the victim of my cold and cruel behavior.  I am not like that though!  There are plenty of people who do know the real me, and will say that I'm actually a good person.   

Chickadee, this is precisely what I've been going through recently. I can't talk about my true feelings about her - she just responds with whatever HER feelings are about the situation. It's implicit that my feelings aren't real and valid and her feelings are. I said to her that she invalidates my feelings and she says no, I want open and honest communication. But she wants open and honest communication for herself only. She wants to express herself and for me to understand where she's coming from - which she calls defending herself. She says I don't allow "the other person" to defend themselves (because I tell her I don't like to hear excuses and justification). I consider it very invalidating and dismissive for her to say I'm playing games, power tripping, etc. etc. She just doesn't see it that way. If I say "mom, you hurt me when you said x" she'll say, "well, you hurt me too!" She thinks this is a fair and open and honest discussion - I call it justification on her part! I can't address anything with her. There's no ownership or responsibility taken on her part. I just want her to NOT say things like I'm a cactus or I'm prickly. I just want her to think before she opens her mouth. I want her to not put it on me every time that things aren't going her way with our relationship. She acts like this is a crazy insane request that she just can't wrap her brain around, she doesn't get why I'm being so unreasonable and mean, blah, blah, blah. I'm just so sick of being made to be in the role of an abuser - why would she want to associate with me then? Why would I want to associate with someone who makes me feel like an aggressor? As I said, I've expressed everything to the best I can - if she chooses not to listen, the consequences are her decision, not mine.

Interesting about the provoking - yes she seems to get a lot of satisfaction by baiting me. And I can't help but get sucked in most times. It's the only reason I can think she would bring up the cactus thing again, I had totally forgotten it even happened. I've been very LC for a few months now and I'm sure she's been dying for a way to get to me and get me riled up - her favourite pastime it seems. We'll get into an argument over some such silly thing (like her proclaiming over and over that she knows I've seen a movie that I HAVE NOT seen, or stating that I don't water my plants and that they're dying - plants I've had for 10+ years) and she'll argue for a bit and then act like I'M the one who started it and it's a stupid argument and I'm once again, being ridiculous and unreasonable as always. She likes me to be angry and short with her because it allows her to feel like a victim, misunderstood, etc. It gives her ammunition, you are correct.

[zone out]

Hi All

This is an interesting thread - reading through all the recent posts, I nearly made myself dizzy as I nodded in recognition and agreement over and over again.  As Breathing New Air mentions - a shell - yes that is how I feel, sometimes it is like she is chipping away at me and someday there will be no me left.

True feelings! - the only feelings that matter with the BPD are their feelings.  I once, indicated in a very subtle and gentle way that she had hurt my feelings by the way she had acted.  She went into an explosive rage - totally out of control.  The subject of my feelings never surfaced again.  She really doesn't know me at all despite the fact that I visit or phone her every day.  She once looked disapprovingly at me - "when had I started to wear make-up?"- I was in my 40s, I had been wearing make-up, since I was 14!  She is in her 80s now, I am basically the only contact she has so I cannot cut down visits, I should have made some sort of stand when we were both younger.

Like Cleotokos, my mother gets much satisfaction by baiting me and I too get sucked in most times - not engaging in an argument with her, she is very good at carrying on an argument all by herself, but by getting anxious and drawn into the craziness.  Every aspect of my interaction with her is controlled by her moods - I am the puppet, she is pulling the strings.

Reflecting back to the idea of THE SHELL - it is sometimes difficult for me to understand my own reality, to know myself.  I am so used to mopping up the atmosphere around me and reacting rather than feeling.  Furthermore I think if I 'found' my true feelings and gave them full reign I would be so resentful I would not be able to cope with the situation at all.  Resentful and regretful are not words I want to focus on, this brings me into her territory, she is all regrets, if onlys etc.

It is so difficult ... .

Zone out

[cleotokos]

She really doesn't know me at all despite the fact that I visit or phone her every day.  She once looked disapprovingly at me - "when had I started to wear make-up?"- I was in my 40s, I had been wearing make-up, since I was 14! 

Hmmm, on the not knowing you, I can certainly relate to my uBPD mother being surprised at things that I REALLY think she should have noticed previously. For example I began going to school in pursuit of a degree in biology, which I did steady for about 3-4 years. I took a couple of semesters off for financial reasons and then returned, taking a physics course and a calculus course, part-time. uBPD mother commented that "(narcissistic tendencies stepfather) and I are really proud of you taking science and math courses!" like it was something brand-new (NPD stepfather is impressed since he is an engineer). Or, when I complained that my stepsister made fish for my birthday dinner. I've hated fish all my life and felt hurt that she didn't remember, considering we both hated fish "together" () when we were kids (she later acquired a taste for it). Even stepsister's fiance said to me, "I thought you didn't like fish?". When I recounted the story, uBPD mom says "what? You don't like fish?" like she's never heard this in her life. I ate a bunch of clams at her boyfriend's house when I was about 5, had food poisoning, and have never been able to even smell seafood since. Wouldn't you think a mother would know that? What picture of me does she have walking around in the world? It must be a distorted shadow of who I really am.

[zone out]

Sad but not surprising I suppose.  It takes a lot of energy and effort to be so self centered and self focused - not much 'headspace' for anything else.  I think the BPD tends to talk at you rather than to you, not really the recipe for meaningful interaction. Perhaps they are so focused on their own feelings/opinions/needs they don't have the capacity to take account of those of anyone else.  I have also sometimes noticed with my mother - things she knows when she is in a reasonably normal mood, she appears to have no recollection of during one of her episodes, almost like she has two levels of consciousness. 

I will never understand what goes on in her head.

Zone out

[chickadee]

I'm just so sick of being made to be in the role of an abuser - why would she want to associate with me then? Why would I want to associate with someone who makes me feel like an aggressor? As I said, I've expressed everything to the best I can - if she chooses not to listen, the consequences are her decision, not mine.

I can relate.  My mother made me out to be the "abuser" too, every time we had a fight.  The last time we spoke she even accused me of emotionally abusing her because she told me I had written a terrible letter to her and I didn't know what letter she was talking about.  When I asked her what letter she said:  "You're denying it!  That's emotional abuse!  I put up with that from your father for 30 years and I'm not going to put up with it anymore!"  Well, she's right, she doesn't have to put up with "emotional abuse" from me because we don't even speak anymore.  I still don't know what letter she was talking about, because most of our communication took place in person or over the phone.  It doesn't matter though, because I really don't have plans to contact her ever again.  I've remained in touch with one of my aunts (my mom's youngest sister) and that is all.  The rest of my mom's family is just too crazy.  I've told my aunt in no uncertain terms that I don't want any contact with my parents anymore, and so far my parents have left me alone. 

You are right, you've expressed your feelings to your mom as best as you can, and the fact that she can't understand is not your fault at all.  The last contact of any kind that I had with my mother was a letter in which I begged her to have individual therapy.  Without her making an effort to better herself, I had no hope of saving our relationship.  Sadly, from what I've read, people with BPD usually don't seek therapy, or if they do, they usually quit after a few months (because that's when they realize therapy is about changing themselves, not just complaining about other people). 

I think it's very important for us, the children of mothers with BPD, to realize that we are not 100% responsible for everything that has gone wrong in our relationships with them.  And, we're not 100% responsible for trying to put everything right, either.  The idea is silly, that we can do no right and they can do no wrong.  But, that is how they see it, it's that black and white thinking of theirs.

If you've had very LC with her for some time now, then it's only a matter of time until she somehow tries to draw you back in again.  It's important to remember that her view of you is distorted to begin with, so when she tries to criticize and judge you, there's a very good chance she's going to be wrong.  You don't need to be judged anyway, you're OK the way you are and none of us are perfect to begin with.  I've been NC for 6 years now, and I know that the only reason I've made so much improvement is because of NC.  I am SO much better at taking criticism than I used to be!  Life has been much nicer for me in some ways.  Of course there is a price to pay though.  I still think about my parents every single day and will always be sad about the way things turned out.  And I'll never be able to recover completely from the damage they've done.

[cleotokos]

Hi chickadee, I have some experience with my uBPD mom going to therapy at my request. It didn't really go well.

I asked her to go because I hoped that the therapist would explain things like boundaries to her, and help her to translate the things I told her that she didn't seem to understand. Well, she quickly forgot that's why she went - it became an exercise in her convincing the therapist that there was nothing wrong with her, and that she was right about being a victim, so she could report that back to me. She used the therapist to validate her own beliefs and opinions - she went in with an agenda instead of an open mind. Eventually she stopped going, allegedly the therapist told her she didn't need therapy but I suspect that in reality she was not willing to change any of her opinions or anything about herself and the therapist sensed she just wasn't ready for therapy or wasn't there for the right reasons. During therapy, she would also use her therapist against me ie. "My therapist says it was very revealing when you said x" (basically saying that the real reason I said something was nothing to do with her, but "telling" of a secret, twisted, alternate reason - does that make sense? It's always this way with her). I don't really believe her therapist said half the things she reported back to me - they seemed a whole lot like things she would think and say. I have experienced her saying I told her things that she herself actually said, so I wouldn't be surprised if she thinks does the same with others - have you heard of the false consensus effect? She seems to have an extreme version of this wherein she actually hears other people saying things that SHE said.

Anyways, I don't want you to lament the fact that you never got her into therapy - it likely wouldn't have been successful. It's like quitting smoking - you can't do it for somebody else. The desire to change has to come from within.

[gloveman]

Breathing New Air

     You are right. They can’t understand. And you can’t make them understand no matter how hard you try.

Chickadee

     My parents had no idea who I was either. One day in 2010 my parents visited our family business (Dad was completely retired.) My mom looked at all the knickknacks on my desk, the shelf above my desk and the nearby filing cabinet then commented that I was sensitive. It took until I was 63 to finally understand anything at all about me.

     Too little, too late... .

     It is important to note that she had to discover it for herself. No amount of explaining by me would have made her understand.

Cleotokos

     Yes, BPD’S try to provoke you because it gives them ammunition to use against you. It also allows them to project their nastiness onto you. You are the problem not the BPD sufferer.

[TD131]

It's encouraging for my psychological health to read these experiences because it really does validate and support my own feelings about, well, everything. Whenever my childhood comes up with my mom, she responds with, "I did the best I could, but you were such a difficult child." Or I get, "you think you had a bad childhood, mine was horribly abusive." For some reason I have thought that if I just provide enough evidence, if I can elucidate my perception or explain the situation as I experienced it, she might understand and change her behavior. It's my stupidity; rather, it's my hopeless hope for a functional mother. I have been told I have no empathy when I set boundaries. I have been told that I don't tell her anything anymore. It's all the same. I am attacked, assailed, harassed, badgered, provoked, all of it. I have realized my inability to ignore her attempts at engaging me in an argument. I have been too involved with my mom for too many years to zone out or push away my anger when she intentionally triggers it. She won't stop until she's hurt me 10 times worse than she's been hurt.

Now that she has received an official BPD diagnosis, she is using it as an excuse which was expected. She tells me, "You can't be upset with me for your childhood because I wasn't capable. Being angry at your mom for having BPD is like being angry at your dad who was in a wheelchair and couldn't go out and play football with you." I just roll my eyes at that one... .I understand her handicap, but telling me I have no right to be angry at her abuse is ridiculous. I am always "trying to hurt her" when I tell her I don't want to talk.

All of you who can ignore your relatives with BPD must be very strong people, for me the only way is going NC. I played the roll of therapist and crutch and punching bag for far too long. What that relationship taught me is how important it is for me to really hear my own kids when they talk to me or even when they whine. It's so utterly important for me to recognize that I can put down my own feelings to understand what my kids are going through and to be what THEY need. No parent has the right to rob their children of healthy development.

[chickadee]

have you heard of the false consensus effect? She seems to have an extreme version of this wherein she actually hears other people saying things that SHE said.

I have not heard of this yet, but it certainly sounds like something a BPD would do.  One thing she did do to me at least once was to twist the facts around when referring to something I said about her when I was a little kid that hurt her.  I specifically remembered the incident she was referring to, so I know she made it sound a lot worse than what it really was.  A lot of things that I did and said when I was very young were 100% normal, and she took offense to them because her BPD made her so sensitive.  I was being punished just for being a normal kid. 

Actually, my mom did enter into therapy for a few months, but it didn't have anything to do with me.  My parents split up and were divorced for a while (after 30+ years of marriage), and she started individual therapy.  My father found out about it, and kept pestering her to tell him who her therapist was, and she finally gave in.  Then, he started seeing that same therapist, and after 2 sessions he quit, evidently satisfied that there was nothing wrong with him and she is the nut (he's uNPD).  My mom used his interference as an excuse to stop going and never bothered to find a new therapist for herself and that was the end of it.  How dysfunctional is that?  So when you say it likely wouldn't have been successful, you're absolutely spot on.  Even though my mom didn't enter T to address issues related to me, individual T might have helped us anyway, but the outcome was a total failure.

Gloveman, thank you for the encouraging words.  It is so painful to think about how my own mother has no idea who I really am.  It has had very serious consequences for me as well.  She didn't nurture me properly, when I was a little girl, she tried to turn me into another version of herself.  For example, she regretted never taking piano lessons, so she made me take them for years and years, even though that isn't what I wanted.  I wanted to be an artist.  I was always drawing or painting something, but it never entered her mind that I should be having art lessons instead.  I was never encouraged to study art at all, and I so regret not majoring in art in college.

TD131, everything you wrote resonated with me, and I'm so glad that reading everyone's postings are so validating for you.  Keep reading and posting, it really helps. 

Whenever I brought up my childhood, my mother's mantra was "well, you had a better childhood than I did!".  I always got the feeling that she was trying to convince herself of that, rather than me.  You will never be able to produce enough evidence to show your BPD mom that you have the right to think about your own feelings.  I hate to be so negative, but it's the truth, she's very unlikely to accept any responsibility and try to change her behavior.  And I don't buy into the idea that people with BPD "can't help themselves", especially when children are involved.  Having BPD does not make a person stupid, and it doesn't serve as an excuse for a parent to make herself feel better by abusing her children.  You have every right to be angry about how she has treated you, and how she still treats you!  Like I said in another post, my uBPD mother believes her feelings matter and mine don't.  That is absolute nonsense, and it's the main reason I maintain NC.  She won't change, and I'm not going to let her ruin any more of my life, she's ruined it enough.  I admire what you wrote about your own children and agree with your statement that no parent has the right to rob their children of healthy development.  Very well said.  And I'll add that your kids' needs are vastly more important than your mother's needs are.  I very aggressively protected my own child from my family's bad behavior, and that was a huge part of why my relationship with my mother in particular ultimately failed.  I didn't give in to her demands.  Being a mother changed my attitude towards my parents.  Instead of just being responsible for myself, I was suddenly responsible for my child as well, so his birth made me take a bolder approach to setting boundaries with my parents, and their offense to that had little effect on me. 

If you are looking for a good book about how to better understand your children's behavior, try "When Your Child Drives You Crazy", by Eda LeShan.  It's the only book I ever needed about how to raise my son better than I was raised and I highly recommend it.  When you understand your child's behavior, it makes it so much easier to make healthy decisions about how to handle it.