My journey with therapy - II

[Nuitari]

When I read through your initial post I got the clear impression that you chose to continue your affair even after he became aware that something was happening between you and his wife. This just feels an attempt to rationalise your desire to hurt or punish him and destroy what's left of their marriage; an objective you've stated in other posts.

No. Its more complicated than that. When I have more time, I would like to tell the story of the circumstances surrounding her husband calling the school. That's going to be a lengthy post, but the short version is that my attempt to do the right thing set off a chain of events that led to him calling the school. So I am left feeling like I was punished for doing the right thing. Aside from my T, I feel like I get no recognition for trying to disengage from that whole mess. I don't get it here, and certainly not from my ex's husband.

I want to be absolutely clear about something. I'm in no way trying to rationalize anything in an effort to make myself look good. I've been very candid about all of my wrong doings. But I've also tried to make clear (both in my initial post and elsewhere) how clingy and controlling my ex became. Every time I thought we had finally ended things on good terms, she'd resurface again, always in the middle of some personal crises that only I could solve. After everything we had been through together, I didn't have the heart to refuse her. I didn't lose my job because of an affair, but because of her extremely needy nature. For some reason I always felt a deep obligation to help her. All of these feeling resurfaced briefly when she recently asked me to write her a recommendation letter. I'm proud to say that I didn't even respond. I was always made to feel guilty for doing anything for myself. I decided to go on a road trip by myself just to try to get away from everything and heal. Its something I felt like I needed to do. That drove her nuts. She was calling me every ten minutes wanting to know where I was and what I was doing. Things actually got scary for a while.  We weren't even in a relationship anymore, and it was like she was trying to own me. This behavior continued even after I lost my job, until I finally ended all contact with her. The reason I am so frustrated is because I don't think her husband sees that clingy and possessive side of her. Instead, he saw me as someone who was intruding in his marriage. At least, what little interaction I had with him would suggest as much. If he didn't want her talking to me at work, he should have taken that up with her. I was more than happy with her no longer talking to me. What he did was unnecessary. I've done some wrong things, but I'm not guilty of the things he's accused me of, and I can't help but get upset when people try to convince me that I am.

But if you really want to try and understand his thinking you could imagine what might say if he posted his story here.

I work for the military serving my country. My wife has been struggling with mental health issues for some time and I'm trying to support her and our family as best I can. She decided to got back to school. I supported her and I hoped it might help build her confidence and make her happier.  I was posted away (fighting for my country) and when I came home I discovered that my wife was having an affair with one of her teachers. I was completely devastated. I know my wife is vulnerable and a bit unstable and I feel so angry that someone in a position of trust and authority would exploit his position like that.

I don't know what to say to that, except that I didn't know of her mental health issues until too late. It doesn't make right what I did, but she had me convinced that their marriage was ending that he was ready to walk away. I feel like I was tricked. All of us here have been hurt by someone we loved, but most of you have the consolation of knowing that your exes once held strong and genuine, albeit unsustainable, feelings for you. That is something you can cherish. I don't have that. If I'm going to be completely honest with myself, I have to face that my ex deliberately toyed with my feelings. I was used and manipulated. Focusing on my own actions doesn't help with my anger because none of my unethical behavior excuses all of those things she did. She treats people in ways that no human being should ever treat another, and she gets to walk away every time. I want her to answer for it, and I can't think of a better way than exposing her to him. By all rights he should be as angry and hurt as I am, but instead he gets to live in blissful ignorance. A few months after losing my job, I threatened to call him, and she said "why can't you move on from this? He's already moved on. Why can't you?" Of course he's moved on! He doesn't have to know all the horrible things that I do. His feelings were spared, while she doesn't give a damn about mine. If our relationship had meant anything to her, she would have told him the full truth about us. Instead, she wanted ask more and more of me, and expected me to keep all of my pain to myself and not do anything that might inconvenience their lives in slightest. My ex is the personification of evil and selfishness, and I hate her.

Sorry for the rant. I appreciate all of your replies. It takes me a while to get through them all, but there is more that I will reply to when I have more time.

[myself]

The consensus seems to be to do what's best for You.
Honestly, that might be to send the letter. It's your move to make.
Not being heard/respected/understood can hurt, and keeps some stuck.
Looking ahead, a few years let's say, will it be better for you to have sent it?
Will it have helped you speak up for yourself, create more closure, etc?
Even if it's a temporarily 'wrong' move, another life lesson faced... .
 

[Nuitari]

I hope you can consider, in retrospect, that this woman and her husband (and anyone really) are much much more complex than you are painting here.  No man or woman decides " I'm going to marry a person who is pathologically incapable of being faithful or reciprocating my love.  "      

Perhaps not, but he did make the decision to remain in a marriage like that, to fight for it, and even help destroy the lives of those that look like they might be a threat to it. It just seems like very strange, unhealthy behavior, and I just don't get it.

We all know... .that is not what people are thinking or intending when they marry,  anymore than it was your expectation when you became involved with her, right?    

Here's the thing. People keep telling me that I should learn from this. But it doesn't feel like there is any burden on him to learn anything. Shouldn't he have learned something too? Shouldn't this experience have made him question his marriage and the mental stability of his wife? No. His primary concern was to punish me for buying into the fairy tale she sold me. And he expects what exactly to happen next? Are they supposed to live happily ever after now? Is that what he thinks is going to happen? Shouldn't it bother him that his wife felt some strange need to convince another man that she was leaving her husband? No. He just lashes out at me so they can pick up where they left off. It just seems like such shallow thinking.  

[jhkbuzz]

Thanks for your replies everyone. I'm still reading through all of them. I'm working so many hours during the week that weekends are practically the only time I have now to come here.

For me it was very important to be able to feel that my anger at my BPDex was justified. I found therapy terribly invalidating because it made me feel like I was the problem. Of course I was part of the problem, but that was an insight I was ready for much later. When I was hurting it was important for me to feel that I had been a victim. I even think I needed to think like that because for so many years I had felt like the perpetrator and now I needed to adjust to not being that. The balanced view on things is something that I think you are ready for much later.

Wow. This just summed up what I'm going through. My therapist keeps telling me that I'm not victim, and that its my "victim mentality" that's spawning my anger. But its hard for me to see how someone could go through what I went through and not feel like a victim. When she tells me that I need to stop feeling victimized, I feel like she might as well be telling to flap my arms and fly. Its not going to happen.

I'm headed towards 2 1/2 years post breakup. I just ended therapy (after finding a therapist as my r/s was ending). My first thought when I read what your therapist said to you is that perhaps you need a new therapist. 

I was deeply angry for a long time. If I spend any time dwelling on the things she did I can still feel angry. But it just doesn't take up my time anymore.

For the first year of therapy I did nothing but talk about the r/s. My hurt, my anger. I had completely fallen apart (it was an 8 year r/s) and I just needed someone to listen and validate. If my therapist initially started telling me that I needed to stop feeling victimized, I think I might have told her to f*&% off. I was victimized - BUT - I'm not a victim. Not a perpetual victim. Not comfortable in remaining in a "victim" stance for a very long time. But it was important to grieve and be validated - and those were the ingredients that helped me move forward and begin to heal.

The time came (in therapy) that I stopped talking so much about my ex; when I started to look inward and my own personal history and "stuff" that needed to be dealt with and healed. But I "drove" that timetable - my therapist never did. She always said, "No wine before its time." She repeated it when I felt like it was taking me "too long" to get over the r/s. And she let me keep talking about the r/s for as long as I needed. It was almost like getting poison out of my system.

I read a quote once: "Anger is sad's bodyguard". I know that, for me, it was often easier - much easier - to be angry instead of sad. Because when I was sad, I was terribly, terribly sad. Unbearably sad. I had to work through the sadness - there was no other way around it.

The thing that kept me from acting on my anger is that I want to be a person of integrity. I'm not always successful, but I want to feel proud of myself when I look in the mirror - not ashamed. That impulse kept me from taking actions that I was afraid I would later regret.

One other thing that really helped me was the recognition that "I am not my thoughts." I learned to observe my thoughts - and even my emotions at times - in a detached sort of way, especially when I was starting to get worked up. I got curious - and tried to identify triggers. "Hmmmm... .why am I suddenly feeling angry today?" When I got curious I would almost always be able to trace back and identify the trigger (song on the radio, passed by a place we used to go to together) and it would somehow help me calm down. I began to notice my thoughts (especially the ones that "my life is s&*t and hers (with her rebound r/s) is awesome" and began actively stopping them. "That's not the story" I would sometimes say out loud. "These thoughts are just thoughts and I can choose to stop investing in the ones that don't build me up." I began to take care of myself - and that included making sure to not allow self defeating thoughts to get very far.

I don't know if any of this helps. I hope it does. Your anger is natural and normal, and it will take as long as it takes to heal from the devastation of your r/s. Do your best not to act on your anger, however. There's a small part of you that believes that acting on it will help reduce your pain - but it won't. It might, in fact, make it worse.

  

[Nuitari]

Maybe you need a new therapist? Maybe this one isn't addressing the things you need addressed?  I find it very difficult to talk to anyone about it.

Sense starting this thread. My T and I have talked about how I feel like I'm making no progress, and she feels that its time to go in a different direction in our sessions. My T is great. She's not the problem. Its me. I think a big part of my problem is that I started therapy already with my mind made up that I'm going to contact my ex's husband and tell him everything. Looking back, I think what I was initially seeking from my T was permission to do it. It didn't work out that way, and now its taking a huge effort on my part to let go of that thought.

[jhkbuzz]

Maybe you need a new therapist? Maybe this one isn't addressing the things you need addressed?  I find it very difficult to talk to anyone about it.

Sense starting this thread. My T and I have talked about how I feel like I'm making no progress, and she feels that its time to go in a different direction in our sessions. My T is great. She's not the problem. Its me. I think a big part of my problem is that I started therapy already with my mind made up that I'm going to contact my ex's husband and tell him everything. Looking back, I think what I was initially seeking from my T was permission to do it. It didn't work out that way, and now its taking a huge effort on my part to let go of that thought.

Yeah... .I've continued reading all the posts in this thread and I've picked up on that.

My sense is that you want him to feel the same level of pain that you do. The unspoken assumption is that dropping a pain bomb on him will lessen your pain. But it won't.

My sense of how "unfair" it all was stuck with me for a very, very long time - so I understand. You're suffering deeply and you want to do something - ANYTHING - to reduce the pain. Sending him the letter won't do it for you. Unfortunately, what's needed is time to heal. And restraint to refrain from doing anything that will keep you embroiled in the drama.

[Nuitari]

The consensus seems to be to do what's best for You.
Honestly, that might be to send the letter. It's your move to make.
Not being heard/respected/understood can hurt, and keeps some stuck.
Looking ahead, a few years let's say, will it be better for you to have sent it?
Will it have helped you speak up for yourself, create more closure, etc?
Even if it's a temporarily 'wrong' move, another life lesson faced... .

Some days I can't shake the feeling that contacting him is what is best for me, regardless of what follows. But other days I see this as throwing my job away again. My new employers know that I was fired from my last job, and they were nice enough not ask me why. I feel like they're giving me a chance to redeem myself. That is very important to me too. Which of these is a bigger priority for me seems to change from one day to the next.  I keep telling myself to wait several years before sending that letter. I don't know how the school would react if the husband called them right now, but I can't imagine the school caring that much about something that happened, say, ten years ago. Right now my only consolation is telling myself that I'll call or write him someday, after the dust has had time to settle. But its going to be hard waiting that long. I know myself well enough to know that I'll never have any peace until I send it.

But I'll admit, though, that there is plus side to not contacting him, and that is that my ex has no idea (as far as I know) where I work, and I don't want to give her any extra motivation to find out. She was always so possessive and controlling, and its kind of nice knowing that she doesn't have a clue where I am now. In that regard, I feel free.

[Reforming]

Hi Nuitari,

My apologies if I made assumptions about what happened with your job.

I think jhkbuzz has offered some good insights too. All we offer is our opinions and support. Nobody else can really step in your shoes or tell you what to do.

But a lot of people here are really rooting for you and want things to work out well.

For a long time I felt very angry about my ex and my replacement. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts even though they betrayed their partners and families they were both promoted and they're now together.

When I allowed myself to dwell on that it was very easy to slip into anger and resentment. But whenever this happens I remind myself of the reality of my relationship with my ex. There's was a lot of darkness, pain and hurt. I don't believe that that will magically disappear in a new relationship, especially one that has the added emotional baggage of a divorce.

But here's  the thing. Even if they are happy together. I'm ok with that now. It's taken me a lot of time and effort to accept that the most important thing is that I wasn't happy with her.  Your new employers sounds like decent people and so do you.

I'd offer one other thought on therapy. When I first started working with a T  I wanted the pain to excised and removed. I wanted to be healed, remade.

What I've come to realise is that moving forward is about learning to live with the pain and grief. Over time it has lessened and becomes quieter but it will probably always be a part of me. And that's not a bid thing because it's become the voice of wisdom whispering in my ear.

Big hugs

Reforming

[Nuitari]

The time came (in therapy) that I stopped talking so much about my ex; when I started to look inward and my own personal history and "stuff" that needed to be dealt with and healed. But I "drove" that timetable - my therapist never did. She always said, "No wine before its time." She repeated it when I felt like it was taking me "too long" to get over the r/s. And she let me keep talking about the r/s for as long as I needed. It was almost like getting poison out of my system.

Its funny you should mention this. In my last session, my therapist mentioned how we need to move the discussion to something else other than how I've been so hurt, etc. Its all I want to talk about. But she says that indulging it that is keeping me stuck, and so we need to start focusing on other things. I get her point, but most days I'm too angry to talk about, or care about, other things. I'm left with this overpowering need to do something. I went through something horrendous, but I feel like I never had any emotional reaction to it, and I still need to have my reaction. I feel like I could have moved on so much easier if I had just blown my top first. I feel like I still need to do that. I'm really kicking myself now for not contacting the husband before I getting this great job. At least then I wouldn't have had anything to lose, and I think I would be in a much better place now. After everything I've been through, I just feel like I'm entitled to some kind of emotional outburst. I never had one, and its slowly eating away at me.

One other thing that really helped me was the recognition that "I am not my thoughts." I learned to observe my thoughts - and even my emotions at times - in a detached sort of way, especially when I was starting to get worked up. I got curious - and tried to identify triggers. "Hmmmm... .why am I suddenly feeling angry today?" When I got curious I would almost always be able to trace back and identify the trigger (song on the radio, passed by a place we used to go to together) and it would somehow help me calm down. I began to notice my thoughts (especially the ones that "my life is s&*t and hers (with her rebound r/s) is awesome" and began actively stopping them. "That's not the story" I would sometimes say out loud. "These thoughts are just thoughts and I can choose to stop investing in the ones that don't build me up." I began to take care of myself - and that included making sure to not allow self defeating thoughts to get very far.

My therapist is also stressing the importance of thought control. I can see the wisdom in everything she says, but I'm still too angry to control my thoughts. She says I need to make a conscious effort to direct my thoughts to other things, like my new job and what that means to me, or the possibility of future relationships. I have many OCD tendencies, and she says it is my OCD that is keeping me stuck in an endless cycle of bad thoughts. She's shown me techniques for helping me break that cycle, but its so hard to do them when I'm livid. I feel like I still haven't calmed down enough to benefit much from the therapy.

[Nuitari]

My apologies if I made assumptions about what happened with your job.

No biggie. When I have the time to devote to it, I would like to type a long post telling of the circumstances leading to my being fired. That is a long story, and one that I myself don't have all the answers to. At least if I had still been sleeping with his wife when he called the school, that would make so much more sense. I'm not sure I would even feel much anger at him under those circumstances. But as it is, I'm still very confused about what happened. I can completely understand the school's reason for letting me go. But his actions were completely unwarranted.

I'd offer one other thought on therapy. When I first started working with a T  I wanted the pain to excised and removed. I wanted to be healed, remade.

What I've come to realise is that moving forward is about learning to live with the pain and grief. Over time it has lessened and becomes quieter but it will probably always be a part of me. And that's not a bid thing because it's become the voice of wisdom whispering in my ear.

My T is telling me the same thing, that the pain isn't going to go away, that I'll have to learn to accept it as part of me and live with it. But I don't know if I can do that. "Pain" doesn't even come close to describe what I'm feeling. I've been in therapy for months now, and I still haven't found a way to even articulate to my T (or anyone here) what is wrong with me. Something happened to me, something bad.  I've been damaged in a very deep way somehow. There is more involved than just pain and anger. This experience did something to me, and I still haven't even begun to understand what that is. I just know that something really bad has happened inside me, and it has to be fixed, because there is absolutely no way I can live out the rest of my life feeling this way.

[jhkbuzz]

... ."Pain" doesn't even come close to describe what I'm feeling. I've been in therapy for months now, and I still haven't found a way to even articulate to my T (or anyone here) what is wrong with me. Something happened to me, something bad.  I've been damaged in a very deep way somehow. There is more involved than just pain and anger. This experience did something to me, and I still haven't even begun to understand what that is. I just know that something really bad has happened inside me, and it has to be fixed, because there is absolutely no way I can live out the rest of my life feeling this way.

Your words ^ resonate with me a LOT because my pain was unbearable too. It took me about a year to understand that all of the intense pain that I was feeling was not solely about my ex. Somehow, for reasons I still don't completely understand, the end of the r/s blew open a door - a portal - to previously unexplored childhood pain within me. In some ways it was a relief when I finally recognized that what I was feeling was not ALL about her. That's about the time that I started turning the focus on myself, to work on resolving some of that unresolved pain.

If I had to guess, I would say that the same thing has happened to you.

[Nuitari]

Reforming, I would like to go back to a comment you made earlier and give my take on it.

- and my immediate focus was to end her relationship with him and stop any future contact.

I feel like no one I discuss this with, including my T, sees the situation in the same way I do, and I'm beginning to think that its due to a difference in philosophies. Was forbidding your ex from contacting her affair partner your job? People who enter a marriage do so of their own free will, and they make vows to be faithful to their partners of their own free will. When we enter a marriage, its our responsibility to uphold our vows. But is it our responsibility to force our partners to do the same? I don't think so. That is their responsibility. So why put that burden on your shoulders? If you feel like you have to force your partner to be faithful, hasn't the marriage (as a lifelong vow between two consenting adults) already failed in some sense? That's how I see things.

The reason I bring this up is because I can't help but view my ex's husband's actions as completely misguided, while everyone around me seems to understand them. My ex did not play a passive role in the affair. She even initiated it. By only focusing on me and telling me to "stop pursuing" his wife, isn't he objectifying her? I'm not saying he should view me as innocent or anything, but shouldn't his anger be directed at her? She's the one who broke vows to him, not me. But he seemed so willing to forgive her actions, while I am seen as the villain who was hell bent on destroying his marriage. It doesn't make sense. When we discover that our partner has been cheating on us, and we direct all of our anger out on the third party, aren't we, on some level, objectifying our cheating spouse? It seems like marriage gives people the license to stop thinking on a certain level. My ex was never an object to me, or some prize that I needed to win over. I always saw her as a thinking adult, someone who was in a bad marriage and had made the decision, on her own, to get out of it. That was the picture that was painted for me anyway. Given that, this whole notion that I was actively trying to destroy his marriage, and "steal" his wife from him is completely absurd to me.

[Larmoyant]

Hi Nuitari, it sounds to me as if he's scapegoating you as opposed to objectifying her. Perhaps in order to stay with her, he needs an outlet, someone else to blame (you) so it works between them. In his eyes maybe she needs to be the 'innocent' party taken advantage of by you, not that you did this by any means, but maybe that's what he needs to believe in order to make it work between them. You may unfortunately represent 'the symbolic bearer of her misdeed' allowing him to remain in the marriage?

[Nuitari]

You just summed up why it is soo tempting to expose her actions to him. He ruined my life during a time when all I wanted was to disentangle myself from her, and now I feel obligated to ruin his. I still have every email she's ever sent me, and I sometimes think about forwarding them all to him, because they paint a pretty accurate picture of what was really going on, and given that they are in her words, its something he's not going to be able to deny.

[Larmoyant]

I believe denial can be very strong. I wonder if at some level he does know what really went on? Is it possible do you think that even if you did send the emails that he might choose not to read them?

[steelwork]

now I feel obligated to ruin his.  

Curious: really obligated?

Nuitari, as a woman who had an affair (with life-altering, disastrous results), I can tell you that I agree with your assessment that it makes no sense to blame my affair partner. If, hypothetically, my situation matched yours and my bf had found out about my affair, I can't imagine that he would try to ruin my affair partner's life. I sympathize with your ex's husband, yes, in the abstract--which is to say that I can imagine the emotions behind his actions. I think possibly you're mistaking that sympathy (from others) as signing off on what he did, which it is not. I UNDERSTAND how it happened, but I don't CONDONE it. Far from it.

If the man I cheated on were the kind of person who blamed my affair partner and went after him, I would never have been with him to begin with. I see what you're saying about objectifying, I think--it's as though he's not giving his wife credit for being sentient and acting on her own desires. This is what it boils down to: the two of them--your ex and her husband--both strike me as toxic and effed up people. Never mind whether karma will take care of him or whether they deserve each other--they strike me as people who I would advise you to distance yourself from as thoroughly as possible. Consider your future and what you want it to be and who you want to be in it. Them? Really?

[Nuitari]

Steelwork,

Thank you for that post. Its nice knowing someone gets where I'm coming from. I don't pretend to be innocent, but given that she initiated the whole thing, I just think its weird that he would focus on me as the root cause of his marital problems while she is absolved of any blame. The vibe that I'm getting from most people I talk to, including my T sometimes, is that they see the situation as me doing something to him first, and so he retaliated. I don't get that. His real problem was with her, not me. They may have been married, but that doesn't make them one entity. They are still two individuals. So I don't see it as his place to tell me to stop "pursuing" his wife. It was her place to tell me "I'm married, and I'm going to be faithful to my husband." That was not her mentality, and that should have been his primary concern. For him to go over her head and assume the job of ending contact with me for her is to objectify her. Its like he's saying he doesn't really care about her own happiness or desires.  

If, hypothetically, my situation matched yours and my bf had found out about my affair, I can't imagine that he would try to ruin my affair partner's life.

Here's the thing that bothers me the most. My ex's husband apparently never knew that there had ever been an affair. If he had discovered that we had had an affair, became so overcome with emotion, and called the school, at least that is something I can understand. But he doesn't even know, which makes his actions only that much more shallow and deplorable to me. He evidently thought I was out to ruin his marriage, but ironically, I probably still can, and its hard to just sit back and not reveal everything to him when he didn't hesitate to try to ruin my life.  

If the man I cheated on were the kind of person who blamed my affair partner and went after him, I would never have been with him to begin with. I see what you're saying about objectifying, I think--it's as though he's not giving his wife credit for being sentient and acting on her own desires.

Exactly! My ex should have been offended by his actions. But instead they only seemed to convince her that he loves her. You are right that both of them are very effed up people. The whole time she was seeing me, she would go on and on about how her husband didn't love her. And that single destructive act was all it took to prove his love for her. The idea that I was nothing more than a sacrificial lamb that brought them closer together makes me sick. My job meant everything to me. But it was used for their benefit, while I was left with nothing, and they get to walk away now holding hands? And I'm expected to just sit back and watch and keep what information that might very well destroy their relationship to myself? How can anyone with any self-respect do that? This isn't just about me being angry and getting revenge. Its about me preserving some sense of self-worth. I was just a pawn in some sick game of theirs, and now they get to walk away?

[C.Stein]

Nuitari,

I have been following your story from the beginning.  I have seen how you have progressed, both in healing and in thinking.  I think it is time for someone to say what hasn't been said.  I apologize in advance if this sounds harsh.

This whole issue isn't really about him getting you fired.  I think it is safe to say if it was a colleague or another student that alerted administration you wouldn't be seeking revenge or looking to get even. 

The fact of the matter is, you got yourself fired.  You freely chose to break school policy knowing it could lead to your termination.  This is 100% your responsibility, the vehicle by which the termination came about is unimportant.  I know you understand this but you continue to use the loss of the job to mask the real reason you want to make him pay.

You also chose to get involved with a married woman, it does not matter who initiated it.  This is also 100% your responsibility.  You know you should not have gotten involved with her, but you did anyhow.  Perhaps some of your issues here is you haven't quite accepted that you could have prevented all of this by simply saying NO.  I can completely understand why you didn't but it doesn't change the fact that you had a choice.

So lets be honest.  He did take something from you but it wasn't your job ... .it was her.  What you have written over the months has clearly shown me that you are completely stuck on the fact that he took her away from you and you want to make him pay for it.   I see a lot of ... .if I can't have her neither can he in your writing lately.  The fact is you never had her to begin with.  It does not matter what she told you in order to justify her own actions, she was married and until that changed she could never really be with you.

You have gone to great lengths to refine your rationalizations in order to justify this thinking, now including how you think he should have behaved.  You know it is against your character to seek this payback, as is evidenced by your continued struggle with this, yet you continue to look for a reason to do so.  If you look carefully at what you have written over the months this will jump out at you clear as day ... .start with your last post.

I understand how hard it is to let go of the dream of a future with her.  There was once a time when it all looked so promising and the way she made you feel so wanted, needed, special and loved is something we are all too familiar with.  You miss this, you wanted to be the person to walk away holding hands and it is tearing you apart that it isn't you ... .even if you don't want to admit that to yourself.

[Larmoyant]

They may have been married, but that doesn't make them one entity. They are still two individuals. So I don't see it as his place to tell me to stop "pursuing" his wife. It was her place to tell me "I'm married, and I'm going to be faithful to my husband." That was not her mentality, and that should have been his primary concern. For him to go over her head and assume the job of ending contact with me for her is to objectify her. Its like he's saying he doesn't really care about her own happiness or desires.

.

. He evidently thought I was out to ruin his marriage, but ironically, I probably still can, and its hard to just sit back and not reveal everything to him when he didn't hesitate to try to ruin my life.  

.

Nuitari, can I just say that I'm sorry you lost your job and I'm sorry you are hurting. Your ex's husband clearly took things too far. What I don't understand however, is why doesn't he get a say in all this? I agree that they are individuals, two different people, however, their marriage bond/contract connects them as a unit. At least that's how I see it. So there's him, her and their relationship. He warned you to stop pursuing her as he was trying to protect the relationship. I just don't see it as him objectifying her. I mean doesn't he have a say in this? It's his life too. If not, why not? I'm not saying he had a right to destroy your job. Not at all. He took it way too far, but why didn't he have a right to tell you to stop pursing his wife and by extension protect his marriage? I hope I haven't hurt you further and sorry if I've misunderstood. It's just that if I thought someone was out to ruin my marriage, a marriage I was very invested in, I'd most likely ask them to stop pursing my partner.

[steelwork]

Steelwork,

Thank you for that post. Its nice knowing someone gets where I'm coming from. I don't pretend to be innocent, but given that she initiated the whole thing, I just think its weird that he would focus on me as the root cause of his marital problems while she is absolved of any blame.

I really do get it.

Here is where I part ways with you, though, fwiw:

I'm expected to just sit back and watch and keep what information that might very well destroy their relationship to myself? How can anyone with any self-respect do that? This isn't just about me being angry and getting revenge. Its about me preserving some sense of self-worth. I was just a pawn in some sick game of theirs, and now they get to walk away?

I don't see how your self-worth is indexed to your exacting revenge. I'ma challenge you to explain that to me.

[Nuitari]

So lets be honest.  He did take something from you but it wasn't your job ... .it was her.  What you have written over the months has clearly shown me that you are completely stuck on the fact that he took her away from you and you want to make him pay for it.   I see a lot of ... .if I can't have her neither can he in your writing lately.  The fact is you never had her to begin with.  It does not matter what she told you in order to justify her own actions, she was married and until that changed she could never really be with you.

You don't understand. No one does. He didn't take her from me. True enough, I never had her, but neither did he. No one has her. Again, she's not an object that can be "taken" or owned. She is a thinking individual who chose to remain with him, even after she told me so many times that she loved me and could never be him if he ever called the school. But it was all a lie. She made a fool out of me. I was conned. And then she moves on and doesn't have to accept any accountability for her actions. I feel like I can make that happen. She deliberately used me, and I want to see it blow up in her face. She wears a mask, and I want to take it off and show him who she really is.

And you are right when you say that it is my fault that I lost my job. That's all on me. I knew from the very beginning that I was risking my job, but at the time that was ok because I thought I found something better! The fact that I made poor choices in no way excuses the inhuman things she did. She deliberately mislead me, and I have every right to be angry about that. She played with my feelings. I was used. If her husband can lash out at me under those circumstances then he is just as shallow and screwed up as she is. Shouldn't he be disturbed that he is married to a woman who can do those things? No. All of his anger was at me. I don't think I can be blamed for feeling victimized by that sociopath (I'm talking about her, not him), so I hope you can understand my frustration at him casting me in role of the villain, especially when this happened during a time when I was trying to put as much distance between myself and her as possible.

You also chose to get involved with a married woman, it does not matter who initiated it.

I doesn't matter? Really? Are you telling me that he doesn't care one way or the other who initiated the relationship? Maybe I'm just weird, but if I were married and I found out my wife was seeing another man, I think I would want to know how it started. I think it would hurt me more to know that it began with her pursuing him instead of vice versa. For him to not care is very Neanderthal-like. Its like he's seeing her as a piece of property, not a thinking human being. In doing this he's essentially absolving her of accountability, and someone needs to hold her accountable.

I understand how hard it is to let go of the dream of a future with her.  There was once a time when it all looked so promising and the way she made you feel so wanted, needed, special and loved is something we are all too familiar with.  You miss this, you wanted to be the person to walk away holding hands and it is tearing you apart that it isn't you ... .even if you don't want to admit that to yourself.

Whenever you and I communicate, C.Stein, I always feel like we're having two different conversations. I want to make one thing very clear here. I don't want her back. I've gone well over a year being NC, despite repeated efforts on her part to reach out to me. Does that sound like someone who wants her back? If there is one area where I can honestly say that I have improved, it has been detaching from her. I can see her now for who and what she really is, and I've grown too strong now to get drawn back into her games. What I cannot detach from is the hate. Discussing all of this with my T has only made me more aware of how evil my ex is, and it only makes my hate grow. I don't know if you've ever experienced hate, but it has a way of pushing you into doing destructive things, and I've spent two years trying to resist that urge as best I can. I want that marriage to end, not because of any lingering feelings I have for me ex, but because I just want the world to make sense again. This world is a truly sick place if they can be happy together after what happened. Why is it so hard for anyone to see that?

C.Stein, I appreciate that you've followed my posts from the beginning, and also for all the advice you've given me. But please keep in mind that you can't psychoanalyze a stranger just from reading posts on a message board. Whenever we exchange words, I always get the vibe that you think you know my inner workings better than myself, and you think you have to explain them to me. You don't know what I'm feeling or what I'm thinking. The truth is, things aren't nearly as simple as your making them out to be, and I feel like you're choosing to interpret my posts in only one way. I'm sure it isn't helping that I don't communicate myself very well, but I can honestly say that you are way off the mark with some of your observations.

[Nuitari]

What you have written over the months has clearly shown me that you are completely stuck on the fact that he took her away from you and you want to make him pay for it.

Can you elaborate on this comment, C.Stein? How exactly did he take her away from me? Can you explain that to me? I feel like I'm the only one on this planet that isn't seeing her as a thing that can be taken. She could have left him when I lost my job, right? I mean, she has freewill doesn't she? I don't understand how a thinking adult can be "taken" by another. Why is everyone looking at it that way? This is actually a big part of why I'm so angry. My ex was married and decided to go after another man. She lies to him to get what she wants, tells him she's in love with him, how she never knew what love was until she met him, how she doesn't love her husband and just wants to be free from that marriage. All this happens, and the husband gets angry at the man for trying to "steal" his wife. It doesn't make sense. I don't think it ever will.

[Nuitari]

Nuitari, can I just say that I'm sorry you lost your job and I'm sorry you are hurting. Your ex's husband clearly took things too far. What I don't understand however, is why doesn't he get a say in all this? I agree that they are individuals, two different people, however, their marriage bond/contract connects them as a unit. At least that's how I see it. So there's him, her and their relationship. He warned you to stop pursuing her as he was trying to protect the relationship.

There are three things I want to address here. First, at the time he called the school, I considered the whole matter closed. I was no longer a threat to his marriage. I still haven't told that story in its entirety, but she hurt me in a way that I don't think I'll ever fully come back from. I had never been so hurt by someone in my life. I never wanted to see her again. I just wanted to forget that I ever knew her. And then he decides to call the school. It was senseless thing to do. Afterwards, my ex actually had the nerve to tell me that I need to move on. That's all I was trying to do.

Secondly, if he did indeed act out of a desire to "protect the relationship," it was a futile effort because he has no relationship. What he has is not a relationship. It's something sick. She cheated on him with no remorse. When her husband isn't available to her, she'll use whoever is in her closest proximity for sex. She latter admitted to me that something happened between her and his brother! He doesn't know. She has no sense of decency or respect for other people and he wants to damage someone's career so that he can remain in that pathetic excuse of a relationship. What exactly is he trying to protect?

Thirdly, and I feel like I can't stress this enough, she's an individual. She didn't play a passive role in all this. Why did he insist on putting the spotlight on me? She and I both made bad decisions, but being that she is his partner, it seems like he'd be more concerned with her decisions instead of mine, a stranger. They're married. Shouldn't her decisions matter to him? That's what I mean by objectifying. No matter what her actions were, they were somehow my fault in his eyes. Its like he was incapable of wrapping his brain around the idea that she made her own decisions. She actually wanted to have sex with me while he was unable for three months due to health issues. She had no problem telling me this to my face. Meanwhile he is telling me to leave his wife alone because they are trying to save their marriage! Maybe he was trying to save their marriage. She certainly wasn't. Protecting his relationship by lashing out at me was misguided because I was not what was wrong with their relationship. It was her. Can anyone blame me for not wanting to expose her under these circumstances?

[Nuitari]

I don't see how your self-worth is indexed to your exacting revenge. I'ma challenge you to explain that to me.

Maybe "self-worth" was the wrong word to use there. How about self-respect? There are so many things I still haven't even shared here. I was used and manipulated in so many ways. Looking back, my ex never even denied it when I called her out on it. I took a lot of crap and abuse from her, and then I was the recipient of his anger, most of which should have been directed at her. I just took it. Days after losing my job, my ex actually made the comment to me that she couldn't believe how calm I was about it all. She said "If it were me, I'd be screaming my head off at me." No one with any self-respect would be calm under those circumstances. She treated me in ways that no human being should ever treat another. And I just let it slide. And she gets to just walk away. I want justice. I want her to be held accountable for her actions. If not accountable to me, then to him. He should be just as hurt and angry with her as I am. About six months after losing my job I threatened to call him, and she said "Why can't you just let this go? My husband has." OF COURSE he's let it go! That's because she never told him the full truth. He doesn't have to live with all the horrible facts that I do. Why? Because his feelings are protected. I, on the other hand, had to lose my job, had my heart torn out by her, but I'm expected to just "let it go." I'm a human being too. That job meant just as much to me as his marriage did to him. But she excuses him for acting out on his anger, but I'm expected to just take whatever comes my way and then "let it go."

Something I hadn't realized until beginning therapy is that I have a big problem feeling like other people are deciding for me how I feel, and that's a big part of my frustration. Its why I get upset here when it looks like members are trying to decide for me what my feelings and motivations are without even knowing me.  My ex's husband just decided for me that I was pursuing his wife, that I was trying to "steal" her. He went through ridiculous lengths to rationalize this. I don't like admitting this, because I'm a grown man, but she made me fall apart and sob uncontrollably like an infant. I had never been so hurt by anyone in my life. He actually accused me of putting on an act to get sympathy from her. That's a really insulting thing to say. I'm a human being. But he made me into this one-dimensional character whose only purpose in life was to steal his wife from him. My every action was not to steal his wife. He doesn't get to decide for me what my feelings and motivations were. I don't like being the scapegoat for all of his problems with his marriage, all because I'm intimidated by what else he might do if I contact him. Can you see how this make me feel even worse?

[steelwork]

Maybe "self-worth" was the wrong word to use there. How about self-respect?

I understand why you would feel that way, but I just want to suggest that from the outside it doesn't look like that. I think it shows more self-respect to not get sucked in any more than you have. It's not as satisfying, in some ways, but in no way does it look like a lack of self-respect, at least to me. I see a perhaps slower and less immediately rewarding path to self-respect via self-control.

Something I hadn't realized until beginning therapy is that I have a big problem feeling like other people are deciding for me how I feel, and that's a big part of my frustration.

Yes. This was a HUGE breakthrough for me. I was not permitted to have my real feelings as a child, so people telling me how I am allowed to feel is a HUGE trigger for me. One of the worst things my ex said to me at the end was, "If you think you're any kind of victim, you can go eff yourself." That and "You have no right to feel blindsided."

Just wanted to say I understand.

[Nuitari]

Thank you for understanding.

I understand why you would feel that way, but I just want to suggest that from the outside it doesn't look like that. I think it shows more self-respect to not get sucked in any more than you have.

It doesn't feel like self-respect from where I'm sitting. I was emotionally violated, and I just let the person responsible walk away. Its like getting beat up, and just taking it. You make no efforts at defending yourself. You don't even tell your attacker to stop. You don't do anything but stand there with a stupid grin on your face while your attacker beats you to bloody pulp and then walks away. That's how I feel. I'm guilty of a lot of things, and I can own up to those, but I am NOT guilty of the things that her husband, or the school, accused me of. I never even tried to vindicate myself. I remained silent and let myself be a scapegoat, all so I could protect someone who used me like a tool and then discarded me.

Soon I would like to tell the story of the circumstances surrounding how and why the husband came to call the school. I keep putting it off because that is going be a very lengthy post, and to be honest its something I don't like revisiting. But when I do have the time to devote to it, I would like to share that. Once reading it, I hope that it will become more clear to everyone why I'm feeling the way I do.

[steelwork]

I remained silent and let myself be a scapegoat, all so I could protect someone who used me like a tool and then discarded me.

I t sounds like you're regretting not defending yourself properly to the school. That moment has passed. I don't think you can get it back. I'm sorry. It's gonna have to be a learning experience. Bringing more drama upon yourself and staying engaged with them via revenge will not make up for it.

Again, you have my sympathy.

[jhkbuzz]

Nutari, I hope you don't mind my saying so, but the more I read your posts the more it appears that your anger today, justifiable though it is, is connected to a deeper, older pain that pre-dates your ex.

Something I hadn't realized until beginning therapy is that I have a big problem feeling like other people are deciding for me how I feel, and that's a big part of my frustration.

Was there someone in your FOO (family of origin) who "decided for [you] how you felt?" I suspect that maybe there was.

I don't like admitting this, because I'm a grown man, but she made me fall apart and sob uncontrollably like an infant.

Me too. And when it was a reoccurring event, it started to dawn on me that my grief wasn't all about my ex.

I had never been so hurt by anyone in my life.

I bet that's not true by a long shot.

I was emotionally violated, and I just let the person responsible walk away. Its like getting beat up, and just taking it. You make no efforts at defending yourself. You don't even tell your attacker to stop. You don't do anything but stand there with a stupid grin on your face while your attacker beats you to bloody pulp and then walks away.

 

[Nuitari]

Nutari, I hope you don't mind my saying so, but the more I read your posts the more it appears that your anger today, justifiable though it is, is connected to a deeper, older pain that pre-dates your ex.

You know, I keep feeling like what happened was the final straw. So you may be on to something. I don't why I feel that way, though.
 

Was there someone in your FOO (family of origin) who "decided for [you] how you felt?" I suspect that maybe there was.

Honestly, no. At least nothing is coming to mind. But there was always a feeling/fear of being controlled. My T thinks that this is related to my OCD and my need to control my surroundings.

I bet that's not true by a long shot.

I have to strongly disagree with this one.  

[Nuitari]

I've been feeling bad today and just need to vent a little. I keep thinking about the day the husband and I met face to face. He pointed a finger at me and said "Stay away from my wife!" How did he think I was supposed to do that? She visited my office every day, despite my requests that she stop. I stopped staying at my apartment altogether. I was sleeping on my sister's cough. What else did he want from me? Was I supposed to quit my job so as to avoid her? I feel like this guy wanted me to lose my job because his wife didn't have any boundaries. Granted, for a while I did have proper boundaries either, and wasn't adamant enough that she stay away. But its just eating away at me that this guy saw me as a threat to his marriage. You know what the really ironic thing is? Not long before being fired, I actually considered calling him and politely asking him to tell her to stay away. At the time he called the school, she was no longer even pretending to consider leaving him, and I accepted that. I just wanted the drama to end. I wasn't a threat to his marriage, so why couldn't I keep my job? Its so unfair. Everyone keeps telling me I'm not a victim, but its impossible for me to see it that way.

[Nuitari]

Nutari, I hope you don't mind my saying so, but the more I read your posts the more it appears that your anger today, justifiable though it is, is connected to a deeper, older pain that pre-dates your ex.

You know, I keep thinking about this comment, and I feel like this is what is missing from my therapy, that kind of self-reflection. Instead, my therapist keeps stressing the importance of thought-control, and how I need to force myself to think about things other than this painful experience, more positive things. Maybe she's right, but I feel like I'm being asked to bury all of this. One of my biggest problems is ruminations that I have absolutely no control over. We've spent a lot of time discussing different exercises for breaking those thought patterns and shifting my thoughts to other things. But the truth is I don't want to think about other things because I feel like I haven't addressed the root cause of my problem yet.  

[steelwork]

Nuitari, have you asked your therapist what framework she favors? It sounds like you would be interested in something along the lines of psychodynamic psychotherapy
www.goodtherapy.org/learn-about-therapy/types/psychodynamic

and your current therapist is working in something closer to a cognitive behavioral mode.
www.goodtherapy.org/learn-about-therapy/types/cognitive-behavioral-therapy

Might be worth a discussion with her, about therapeutic approaches... .

[Nuitari]

Interesting. I'll look into both of these. I think she might have a valid point when she says a big part of my problem is OCD. But I feel like I haven't even come close to understanding what is really bothering me. OCD doesn't make a man in his 30's break down and cry like an infant.

[jhkbuzz]

Interesting. I'll look into both of these. I think she might have a valid point when she says a big part of my problem is OCD. But I feel like I haven't even come close to understanding what is really bothering me. OCD doesn't make a man in his 30's break down and cry like an infant.

YES.

I can tell you a couple of things:  my ruminations felt obsessive for a loong time. I'm not OCD, but I definitely have a few tendencies. My ruminations were connected to my need to understand - everything in my life had become such a sh*tstorm of confusion and chaos. Developing that understanding, along with a coherent story of what happened to me, help stop the ruminations (I fell in love with a woman who had significant mental health issues; my experiences in my FOO made me more susceptible to this type of r/s; I was very unhappy when I met her and leaping into the r/s seemed like a way to solve my problems, etc. etc.)

Also: your therapist's approach to dealing with your OCD MIGHT be correct - but it might be the correct solution at the wrong time. I ruminated 24/7 for several MONTHS - the only thing that broke it (believe it or not) was that I happened to play a game with friends that required intense concentration for about 30 minutes. When the game was over I realized I had not thought about her ONCE during the game - and it felt like I had been on vacation for a month! While the ruminations (and my quest for understanding) continued, they continued at a lesser intensity.

And (by the way), not once during these months of rumination did my therapist suggest that I needed to "focus on something else". I understand why you feel like you're being ask to bury something. I think that impulse you have - NOT to bury - is a very good one. Trust your instincts. As another poster wisely said, it sounds like your therapist's approach might be different from what you need.

Can I ask if you've experienced trauma in your life? Share what you feel comfortable sharing. There are more than the two approaches to therapy mentioned above... .

[Nuitari]

I can tell you a couple of things:  my ruminations felt obsessive for a loong time. I'm not OCD, but I definitely have a few tendencies. My ruminations were connected to my need to understand - everything in my life had become such a sh*tstorm of confusion and chaos. Developing that understanding, along with a coherent story of what happened to me, help stop the ruminations (I fell in love with a woman who had significant mental health issues; my experiences in my FOO made me more susceptible to this type of r/s; I was very unhappy when I met her and leaping into the r/s seemed like a way to solve my problems, etc. etc.)

I think this is what I want as well. I'm still trying to process everything that's happened. What was wrong with her? How much of her actions were due to a mental illness and how much was actually conscious manipulation? And what was wrong with me? Why did I do the things I did? Why do I feel so much hate towards her? None of what happened makes any sense, and I need it too. Its hard for me to see how I can move on without first having an understanding of what happened.

Also: your therapist's approach to dealing with your OCD MIGHT be correct - but it might be the correct solution at the wrong time. I ruminated 24/7 for several MONTHS - the only thing that broke it (believe it or not) was that I happened to play a game with friends that required intense concentration for about 30 minutes. When the game was over I realized I had not thought about her ONCE during the game - and it felt like I had been on vacation for a month! While the ruminations (and my quest for understanding) continued, they continued at a lesser intensity.

For me its been two years, and still there is absolutely no way that I can do what you just described. My ruminations have become all-consuming. They're always with me. Some nights I don't sleep. I can't even follow a movie anymore because I'm lost in my thoughts. One day I had to end a class 15 minutes early because I couldn't concentrate on my lecture. I virtually have no attention span anymore outside of my own ruminations. Sometimes I don't even hear people who are talking to me. Sometimes I hear them initially but then eventually just tune them out because they won't shut up. It takes so much energy to even listen to other people. I feel like my intrusive thoughts are isolating me from the rest of the world. This is why my therapist is so insistent that I try to focus on other things. But most of the time I don't have the will.  

And (by the way), not once during these months of rumination did my therapist suggest that I needed to "focus on something else". I understand why you feel like you're being ask to bury something. I think that impulse you have - NOT to bury - is a very good one.

My therapist says that I'm caught in a loop. She says that indulging in my ruminations will only make them stronger, and I'll never pull myself out of this unless I make a conscious effort to control my thoughts and direct my attention elsewhere. I replay some pretty negative stuff in my head over and over. Its like I'm not fully convinced of the facts yet. They still haven't become "real" for me yet, if that makes sense. Replaying terrible memories in my head for two years hasn't helped me to process my experience. They only provide fuel for my hate. So I can see her point. And yet, I can't deny the feeling that I haven't even scratched the surface of what's really tormenting me, and focusing on other things just feels like running away from the problem instead of being the solution.

Trust your instincts.

This is what I'm afraid of, because I don't like what my instincts are telling me. No matter how much thinking I do, I keep coming back to the same conclusion over and over. Until I communicate to my ex exactly how she's made me feel (something I never had the backbone to do before) and come clean to the husband about everything, I'm not going to be okay. Until I can do that, the hate is going to eat away at me. It might mess up my life in a lot of other ways, but mentally I'd be in a much better place than I am now. My therapist says that this desire is being fueled by my OCD. So its hard for me to trust my instincts when I'm being told that they're part of a sickness. My therapist, as well as some members here, have told me that I should be proud of myself for going two years without giving into those urges. But I don't feel proud. I feel ashamed that I haven't found it in me to do what I feel I need to do to move on. I am mystified by the fact that I've thus far chosen to ignore those compulsions. I hope its because there is a healthy part of me that is in control of that unhealthy OCD part, as opposed to me not having the backbone to do something that is beneficial for my long-term emotional well-being for fear of further punishment.
 

Can I ask if you've experienced trauma in your life?

That's the weird thing. I haven't. I keep looking for something in my past that I can point to as a reason for it, but I've always had a very difficult time getting close to and trusting others. There was always a fear that something bad would happen if I did that. So I've always been a recluse. I chose to focus only on my education and then on my career. They were my only source of happiness. I'd even go so far as to say they were my only source of identity. Ironically, the one person who I felt safe trusting turned out to be the devil, and that one fatal mistake cost me everything I worked so hard for. My worst nightmare had come true, and now I am left trying to make some kind of sense out of what happened. How could I have been so careless as to make such a fatal mistake? And how can I ever forgive myself for it? One thing this experience has taught me is that I don't want to be alone anymore. But how can I trust someone else after this? I never want to get that close to anyone ever again. And what about all the hatred that I now feel? Can it really dissipate over time like my therapist says? Or will it manifest itself again in future relationships? These are the questions that I struggle with, and I feel like I can't move on until I figure it all out.  

[jhkbuzz]

Nuitari - I am going straight from work to an after-work event so I don't have time to respond right now but I definitely will soon - you posted a lot of really insightful stuff about what you're going through and I don't want to respond until I have a chunk of time!

[jhkbuzz]

I think this is what I want as well. I'm still trying to process everything that's happened. What was wrong with her? How much of her actions were due to a mental illness and how much was actually conscious manipulation? And what was wrong with me? Why did I do the things I did? Why do I feel so much hate towards her? None of what happened makes any sense, and I need it too. Its hard for me to see how I can move on without first having an understanding of what happened.

I think a couple of things can be said here:
1.  I think everyone on these boards struggled with trying to make sense of the chaos of being with a mentally disordered partner. I see that 'quest for understanding" as a natural part of the process of healing from the r/s.
2. Most of us ruminated HARD - for a good long while.
3. Your OCD is greatly compounding #2.

So you have a few goals, right? To create a coherent story of what happened in your life. To stop obsessively ruminating. To get to the bottom of (and perhaps lessen?) your OCD.

My ruminations have become all-consuming. They're always with me. Some nights I don't sleep. I can't even follow a movie anymore because I'm lost in my thoughts. One day I had to end a class 15 minutes early because I couldn't concentrate on my lecture. I virtually have no attention span anymore outside of my own ruminations. Sometimes I don't even hear people who are talking to me. Sometimes I hear them initially but then eventually just tune them out because they won't shut up. It takes so much energy to even listen to other people. I feel like my intrusive thoughts are isolating me from the rest of the world. This is why my therapist is so insistent that I try to focus on other things. But most of the time I don't have the will.

Wow, I'm sorry. That sounds like how I was moving through life for the first month of the r/s. I am also around 2 years post b/u and I can't imagine if I was still experiencing that level of rumination.

This definitely sounds like your OCD, and I understand why your therapist is trying to help you break this thought "loop" that you're caught in. It's hard to understand how you might begin to heal otherwise.

For what it's worth: one of the things that helped me with my own ruminations (they were obsessive for a while) were Buddhist teachings (I was raised Catholic, so this is not a tradition I've ever embraced). In a nutshell, the idea is that most of us believe that we ARE our thoughts - "us" and "our thoughts" are indivisible. But the truth is that we are NOT our thoughts - we can be calm observers of our thoughts, get curious about them, and separate ourselves from the ones that do not bring us peace. I had a recurring "narrative" that played over and over in my head for a long time. (My ex found a replacement immediately and began putting pix all over Facebook). My inner narrative was something like "my life is sh*t. Her life is great. She loves him and she's happy and has forgotten me and I'll never find anyone else."  I wasn't even really aware that I was thinking this - it seemed so self-evidently true that it BECAME true for me for a while. But between reading some buddhist texts (Pema Chodron is my favorite) and my therapist, I began to get CURIOUS about my thoughts. I still remember the day I finally questioned the "my life sh*t/her life is great" story I had been telling myself. I thought, "Hmmmmm... .what's up with that? Why am I telling myself that? It sure makes me feel awful about myself. And it's definitely not even true - she's not magically "cured" from her dissociation and BPD and my life DEFINITELY isn't sh*t. Why am I telling myself that?" For the first time I had pried "me" and "my thoughts" apart and discovered that I had some control over them. It also caused me to look away from her and at myself. I realized that what was behind the thought was the feeling that everything that went wrong in the r/s was my fault (not true), that I would never find someone else (my own self-esteem issues) - that those "thoughts" weren't to be trusted and were a reflection of the healing that I still had to do for myself. And that's not to say that I never had another self-defeating thought; it's a process. I began to "catch" myself when I fell into those thoughts. It was actually very freeing to separate "me" from "my thoughts".

This is what I'm afraid of, because I don't like what my instincts are telling me. No matter how much thinking I do, I keep coming back to the same conclusion over and over. Until I communicate to my ex exactly how she's made me feel (something I never had the backbone to do before) and come clean to the husband about everything, I'm not going to be okay. Until I can do that, the hate is going to eat away at me. It might mess up my life in a lot of other ways, but mentally I'd be in a much better place than I am now. My therapist says that this desire is being fueled by my OCD. So its hard for me to trust my instincts when I'm being told that they're part of a sickness. My therapist, as well as some members here, have told me that I should be proud of myself for going two years without giving into those urges. But I don't feel proud. I feel ashamed that I haven't found it in me to do what I feel I need to do to move on. I am mystified by the fact that I've thus far chosen to ignore those compulsions. I hope its because there is a healthy part of me that is in control of that unhealthy OCD part, as opposed to me not having the backbone to do something that is beneficial for my long-term emotional well-being for fear of further punishment.

I didn't mean that your therapist is completely wrong - just that your instinct that there is more going on that you're not "getting to" is probably true.

Here's what I think - and I could be totally wrong, so don't get mad: I think somewhere inside you believe that confronting the husband is the solution. I don't think it is. It won't magically stop your obsessive thinking, it won't help your OCD, it won't get her back, it probably won't even break up their marriage. It might feel good in the first day or so after, but a week later you will still be lost in the obsessive thinking and trying to heal yourself. Everyone on these boards has been telling you that it's not what you need to do to heal for a reason. It's because it's not what will help you heal - your OCD is lying to you.

I hear a strong "it's so unfair" in all of your writing - and I think that might be part of what you need to explore. That's part of what I suspect is connected to other, older traumas in your life (perhaps trauma is not the word but I can't think of another!)

That's the weird thing. I haven't (experienced trauma). I keep looking for something in my past that I can point to as a reason for it, but I've always had a very difficult time getting close to and trusting others. There was always a fear that something bad would happen if I did that. So I've always been a recluse. I chose to focus only on my education and then on my career. They were my only source of happiness. I'd even go so far as to say they were my only source of identity. Ironically, the one person who I felt safe trusting turned out to be the devil, and that one fatal mistake cost me everything I worked so hard for. My worst nightmare had come true, and now I am left trying to make some kind of sense out of what happened. How could I have been so careless as to make such a fatal mistake? And how can I ever forgive myself for it? One thing this experience has taught me is that I don't want to be alone anymore. But how can I trust someone else after this? I never want to get that close to anyone ever again. And what about all the hatred that I now feel? Can it really dissipate over time like my therapist says? Or will it manifest itself again in future relationships? These are the questions that I struggle with, and I feel like I can't move on until I figure it all out.

There's something to what I bolded. Definitely worth exploring.

A few things: you may not be able to remember trauma, but that doesn't mean it can't be healed. My paternal grandmother, who I became very close to in the last 10 years of her life, told me stories that I had no memory of. Of being slapped in the face as a toddler. Of telling her one day (she lived across the street from us until I was 5 years old) that "I was bad" because my mother said I was. She tried to talk me out of it but I was convinced. I couldn't have been older than 5, and I was probably younger.

I have no memory of this (or of the hundreds of other events that were traumatizing) - so what to do? Here's the thing: trauma doesn't have to be remembered to be healed. But you have to find a trauma specialist. I strongly recommend the book "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel Van der Kolk. The idea is very different than traditional "talk" therapy - it's that the nervous system "remembers" trauma and the body holds onto it. An example: I was in therapy one day talking about being molested as a child, and my therapist pointed out that one of my legs began involuntarily kicking as I was talking. I couldn't actually stop it even after she pointed it out. She explained it as a nervous system response - that my 'flight" response during the molestation was thwarted, and my body STILL remembered and was trying to run away. Along with learning to separate myself from my thoughts, I began to pay close attention to my body's responses when I was feeling emotional. It was a revelation.

Those ^ kinds of insights into myself were freeing - and anyone who has been on this journey of healing for a while will tell you that that insight is the "silver lining" in these traumatizing r/s's that we've experienced. But we won't ever get to that type of understanding of ourselves if we remain stuck and focused on others. That's' why you've been so strongly encouraged not to act on your impulses.

I hope at least some of this helps you, Nuitari. 

www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/stepping-out-of-obsessive-thinking

[CollateralDamage]

Call me simplistic here, but my experience (including BPD ex gf being married) is almost exactly the same as yours. My experience afterwards was almost exactly the same as well.  So here is what I learned and maybe this can cast a different light on what might be going on in your mind.

By nature, I am very analytical and inquisitive.  When things don't line up logically I really have a hard time with processing the who, what, whys etc. Instead of experiencing the emotional feelings that pop up, I will send that energy to my brain and start to get all up in my head.  This is not good and a lot of my work has been to just experience my emotions and breath. Basically I had to think of a filter between my heart and mind which would block and emotional aspects from entering. Many times with me before the filter was installed () I would "act up" when I felt anxious, nervous, empty, out of control, too little drama (because the drama is addictive with BPD)... .I would send that ___ up to my brain and then ACT OUT.  Playing Sherlock Holmes and trying to figure out why things happened, why she did the crap she did, etc.  My therapist taught me how to just experience the feeling without thought being tied to it.  It worked for me.  I still get these feelings but now I take 2-3 minutes, breath and even pat myself where I perceive the pain to be.  The feeling reduces significantly... .then I move on with what I was doing.

I was exactly like you.  I had the best and worse treatment ever, and she still tries to pop back into my life to see if the attachment is still there.  I had her husband doing the same basic thing of trying to protect what was his, but at the end of the day she violated both of us. SHE was the common problem, triangulating you and against him and vise versa.  She was of free will to choose  you, him or neither. Problem is she, like mine, was not capable of logic.  She played the both card and it was a matter of time till someone got hurt. These are my perceptions, but I agree with you 1000% that she had free will to do the right thing, but her disability warped what was considered right. She was only after what was right for her.

Hopefully, this might help if you try to just experience your feelings/emotions and prevent them from becoming thought.  Don't try to associate WHY you feel that way with them, just let them come and go.  It did wonders for me.

[Nuitari]

jhkbuzz,

Thank you for your post. I've been in therapy for five months now, and it is occuring to me that I haven't even actually started therapy yet. I'm still at square one. My therapist does all the right things. She listens, and seems very sympathetic to what I'm going through. She offers a lot of good advice and shows me new ways of looking at things. But none of it changes how I feel. I leave every session feeling frustrated. Take yesterday, for example. We talked a lot about my desire to contact the husband. She put forward a lot of good arguments why I shouldn't, some of which she's already told me countless times before. On an intellectual level I have to agree with everything she's telling me, but it in no dissuades me from what I feel I have to do. Yesterday's session went fairly well, and yet it did nothing for me. I left feeling no better than when I had walked in. In fact I kinda felt worse because I couldn't offer up a single rebuttal to her arguments. I had to concede that she made good points, but it didn't change my state of mind in any way. I feel helpless. I guess I've been hoping that therapy was going to change my mind about calling my ex's husband, but I don't think that's going to happen. Clearly I'm not getting something from therapy that I'm supposed to be. When I'm in my therapy sessions, I feel like a smoker, and someone is explaining to me the science of why cigarettes are bad, as if that alone is supposed to help me. I can follow the reasoning, and even agree with it, but just knowing the link between smoking and health issues is not going to lessen my cravings for a cigarette.

So you have a few goals, right? To create a coherent story of what happened in your life. To stop obsessively ruminating. To get to the bottom of (and perhaps lessen?) your OCD.

Maybe I can do the first one, but those other two I highlighted seem impossible. Half a year of therapy, and I still don't even know how to begin doing those. My therapist and I have gone over a lot of excercises for breaking ruminations, and focusing on more positive things, but I can't even say that I've made an honest effort at doing that. I feel like I haven't even gotten to the point where I'm capable of even making that effort, much less being successful at it.

Wow, I'm sorry. That sounds like how I was moving through life for the first month of the r/s. I am also around 2 years post b/u and I can't imagine if I was still experiencing that level of rumination.

This definitely sounds like your OCD, and I understand why your therapist is trying to help you break this thought "loop" that you're caught in. It's hard to understand how you might begin to heal otherwise.

Here's a great example of what I'm struggling with. My ex was very sexually active, and after her husband returned home, I have reason to believe that they had a threesome with a woman he works with, and I'm stuck with those images in my head and it makes me hate her. I'm not sure exactly why it bothers me so much. I'm not the judgemental type, and I don't see anything morally wrong it. We were no longer in a relationship, but she was still always going on and on about how much she loved me and how she wished she could be with me. The thought that she could so easily have sex with anyone so soon after everything that happened between she and I hurts, and if she was doing that, the least she could have done was be respectful enough of me to stay away and let me move on. It makes me see just how insignificant I really was to her. I bring this up because this is something I'm stuck on. I need to be okay with it before I move on, so I keep thinking about it over and over, trying to be okay with it. But how can I be okay with it? But I can't move on otherwise? I'm trapped in a loop, and something at some point has to give. How can I ever be in an intimate relationship after all this insanity? That's what I mean when I say my life was ruined. I'm not just talking about my job. I feel like I've been seriously damaged, and I don't know how to communicate that to my therapist.

For what it's worth: one of the things that helped me with my own ruminations (they were obsessive for a while) were Buddhist teachings (I was raised Catholic, so this is not a tradition I've ever embraced). In a nutshell, the idea is that most of us believe that we ARE our thoughts - "us" and "our thoughts" are indivisible. But the truth is that we are NOT our thoughts - we can be calm observers of our thoughts, get curious about them, and separate ourselves from the ones that do not bring us peace. I had a recurring "narrative" that played over and over in my head for a long time. (My ex found a replacement immediately and began putting pix all over Facebook). My inner narrative was something like "my life is sh*t. Her life is great. She loves him and she's happy and has forgotten me and I'll never find anyone else." I wasn't even really aware that I was thinking this - it seemed so self-evidently true that it BECAME true for me for a while. But between reading some buddhist texts (Pema Chodron is my favorite) and my therapist, I began to get CURIOUS about my thoughts. I still remember the day I finally questioned the "my life sh*t/her life is great" story I had been telling myself. I thought, "Hmmmmm... .what's up with that? Why am I telling myself that? It sure makes me feel awful about myself. And it's definitely not even true - she's not magically "cured" from her dissociation and BPD and my life DEFINITELY isn't sh*t. Why am I telling myself that?" For the first time I had pried "me" and "my thoughts" apart and discovered that I had some control over them. It also caused me to look away from her and at myself. I realized that what was behind the thought was the feeling that everything that went wrong in the r/s was my fault (not true), that I would never find someone else (my own self-esteem issues) - that those "thoughts" weren't to be trusted and were a reflection of the healing that I still had to do for myself. And that's not to say that I never had another self-defeating thought; it's a process. I began to "catch" myself when I fell into those thoughts. It was actually very freeing to separate "me" from "my thoughts".

I like Buddhism a lot. Several years ago, I got really into Buddhism and did lots of reading. But the truth is I haven't found the strength to make those kind of efforts. I am in a complete state of feeling right now. There is no thinking, just feeling. Its like that is the only part of me that has survived. I'm trying really hard to care what my therapist says to me, and the tips that you and others are giving me, but all I want to do is call my ex's husband and get even. I still haven't learned to care about anything else. I can't even make those initial steps to recovery because I still don't know how to get comfortable with the idea of moving on and letting go without first doing something to relieve what I'm feeling.

Here's what I think - and I could be totally wrong, so don't get mad: I think somewhere inside you believe that confronting the husband is the solution.

You're absolutely right. I think that confronting the husband is what I need to do to move on, and deep down I feel like I've already made that decision. I think my reasons aren't just due to OCD. I feel like I have a legitimate need. I don't show emotions well. I never have. Where most people will get highly emotional, I will just freeze up in the same situation. I don't know what's wrong with me, but its always been a big problem for me. I think its a big part of why I haven't acted on my feelings yet. No matter what, I always feel that I have to appear calm, and it takes a huge effort to show what I'm feeling to the outside world. And when I do, all I'm capable of showing is a small fraction of what I'm feeling. As a result, I took a lot of crap from my ex that I shouldn't have. Even before losing my job, I was already in a very bad place, and didn't have the backbone to tell my ex how her actions were making me feel. Even after I lost my job, I still remained outwardly calm. I never could find a voice of my own. And now when I look back I am discusted with how I just sat back and calmly watched as someone destroyed everything I worked so hard to attain. Its becoming too much for me to hold in. And now I just want to shout at them for a little while. How can someone go through what I went through and NOT have an emotional outburst? That's the problem. I never had one, and I think I'm entitled. Her husband got to have one, and his experience was nowhere near as traumatic as mine. How can I just take all of that crap from her, and then continue to remain silent because I'm affraid of what else might happen to me?

I hear a strong "it's so unfair" in all of your writing

I feel like I'm the only one who can see the injustice in what has happened. My whole life fell apart, and I'm not sure if I'll ever be okay again. I've been scarred in some deep way that I still don't understand, and yet I'm not supposed to do anything that might inconvenience their lives in any way.

My ex should have been straight up with me from the beginning. She should have told me "My husband is away, and I am very lonely and sexually frustrated, and I'm looking for temporary companionship until he comes back. So if you're interested, I've decided that you'll do." Instead what I hear from her is how she's finally found her soulmate, how I was the first man she's ever loved, etc. No one had ever made me feel more loved than she did. She made me think we had a future together. When I look back, her actions told a very different story from her words. She played with my feelings. I had to lose the one other thing I cared about so that she could use me for her own temporary needs. She didn't even deny it when I called her out on it. My therapist keeps saying that I'm not a victim, but I don't buy that. I was victimized and emotionally abused by her in so many ways, to the point where I absolutely had to cut myself off from her, only to have her husband accuse me of trying to steal his wife. But once again, I never even tried to speak up in my own defense. Can anyone really blame me for wanting to expose her to him?

I feel so betrayed by her. I know that must sound silly because, if anyone should feel betrayed by her, its her husband, not some guy she had been sleeping with behind his back. But he doesn't even know that we had an affair. He thinks I was just some guy who was harrassing his poor wife at school. I'm pretty sure its the husband who is supposed to feel betrayed in situations like these, not the other guy. But all of the pain and feelings of betrayal that should belong to him, I got them all. Not only that, but I had lose my job too. All the bad stuff fell on me while he got to do this really shallow and vindictive thing and continue to have the illusion of having a loving and faithful wife. As usual, I remained silent when I should have spoken up. I let myself be a scapgoat so that this guy's marriage can continue uninterupted while my world was falling apart. My ex always said that it would kill him if he ever found out about the affair. I did this guy a big favor by not telling him, after he didn't hesitate to ruin my career. So, yeah, I think it is very unfair. I feel like I've spent the past two years whining about this, and at some point I'm going to have to grow a backbone and stop whining and actually do something.

I strongly recommend the book "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel Van der Kolk. The idea is very different than traditional "talk" therapy - it's that the nervous system "remembers" trauma and the body holds onto it. An example: I was in therapy one day talking about being molested as a child, and my therapist pointed out that one of my legs began involuntarily kicking as I was talking. I couldn't actually stop it even after she pointed it out. She explained it as a nervous system response - that my 'flight" response during the molestation was thwarted, and my body STILL remembered and was trying to run away. Along with learning to separate myself from my thoughts, I began to pay close attention to my body's responses when I was feeling emotional. It was a revelation.

That sounds like an interesting book, and I do appreciate all the advice you and others have given me. But I can't calm down enough to read a book, much less make efforts to devote my mind to other things. A while back my therapist suggested some meditation techniques for helping me with my anger. She gave me links to some youtube videos on meditation. I tried. But all the videos I watched started with "quite your mind and relax your body." That was just step one! And I can't even do that! I would love to be able to quite my mind and relax my body. For me that is a goal in and of itself. But evidently that is only a prerequisite for the meditation I was expected to do. I have a hard time communicating myself, so I don't blame my therapist one bit for underestimating how intense my emotions are. She doesn't see them. No one does. But what I'm feeling is not anger, its hate. I know my therapist meant well, and was only trying to help, so I didn't take it personally, but I couldn't help but be a little insulted that she would think so light of my situation as to expect youtube videos to be of any help. I'm far beyond being helped by youtube videos. I honestly tried to watch those videos and follow the instructions, but all it was doing was making me angrier. I had to stop when I started having another anxiety attack. All of her suggested ways for moving on are passive in nature. I need to do something. That's all I can feel now, an overwhelming need to lash out. All other avenues only lead to more anger. I feel like I only have one option. After five months of therapy, I'm still not seeing an alternative to contacting the husband. I'm actually affraid because I think I'm going to throw my job away again.

The truth is I cannot yet move on because, OCD or not, I haven't addressed the real issue here, whatever that is. I am feeling pretty low right now because I just don't see therapy working for me. I began therapy with my mind already made up, and I don't think any amount of talking is going to change that now. My therapist is going on maternity leave soon, and I'm supposed to see a colleque of her's in her absence. Part of me would like to believe that this new therapist will be a better fit, but I'm pretty sure its going to be the same story all over again, because the problem isn't with my therapist. I think its with me. I can't begin to get well until I actually want to stop obsessing, but how do make myself want to stop? What am I missing?

Can it be that my problems are just too severe for conventional therapy? I feel so overwhelmed, and a one hour a week therapy session just isn't cutting it. I feel like I'm trying to put out a forest fire with a water pistol.

[Nuitari]

CollateralDamage,

Thanks for your post.

was exactly like you.  I had the best and worse treatment ever, and she still tries to pop back into my life to see if the attachment is still there.  I had her husband doing the same basic thing of trying to protect what was his, but at the end of the day she violated both of us. SHE was the common problem, triangulating you and against him and vise versa.  She was of free will to choose  you, him or neither. Problem is she, like mine, was not capable of logic.  She played the both card and it was a matter of time till someone got hurt. These are my perceptions, but I agree with you 1000% that she had free will to do the right thing, but her disability warped what was considered right. She was only after what was right for her.

I am also very analytical, and I think this is why I have such a hard time understanding her husband's reaction to all this. I certainly don't expect him to think highly of me, but he made some pretty far out assumptions about someone he didn't know; that I was a womanizer, that I was pursuing his wife because it was a game for me, that I was pursuing all of my female students, etc. I can't help but be insulted at his baseless accusations. Anyone who knows me would laugh at those accusations. Even if his beliefs were true, why should he care, unless he can't trust his spouse? That was his real problem, he couldn't trust her, but wanted to punish me for it. I don't get that. He behaved as if she were a piece of property. When she behaved badly, he saw it as me trying to "steal" her. I never saw her as an inanimate object, but an individual making her own choices, and I respected them no matter what, and I guess I thought he would do the same. When she finally told me that she was going to remain in her marriage, I accepted it. I certainly didn't like, but I respected her decision, and I never put any pressure on her to do otherwise. So he's got a lot of nerve accusing me of trying to persuade her to leave him. I think in his effed up view of things, he and I were fighting over her, and he won. But that's not what happened at all. I accepted that she was going to remain with him, and he needlessly lashed out at me when she continued be clingy.

By nature, I am very analytical and inquisitive.  When things don't line up logically I really have a hard time with processing the who, what, whys etc. Instead of experiencing the emotional feelings that pop up, I will send that energy to my brain and start to get all up in my head.  This is not good and a lot of my work has been to just experience my emotions and breath. Basically I had to think of a filter between my heart and mind which would block and emotional aspects from entering. Many times with me before the filter was installed () I would "act up" when I felt anxious, nervous, empty, out of control, too little drama (because the drama is addictive with BPD)... .I would send that please read up to my brain and then ACT OUT.  Playing Sherlock Holmes and trying to figure out why things happened, why she did the crap she did, etc.  My therapist taught me how to just experience the feeling without thought being tied to it.  It worked for me.  I still get these feelings but now I take 2-3 minutes, breath and even pat myself where I perceive the pain to be.  The feeling reduces significantly... .then I move on with what I was doing.

My therapist said something similar. She said I'm not allowing myself to feel the pain. She said all the anger I'm feeling is a defense mechanism, that our brains will trade pain for anger whenever possible because anger is more empowering. She said it might help me a lot if I just allow myself to experience the pain. The problem is I don't know how. All I feel is hate.

[jhkbuzz]

Here's something that may settle your mind a bit: the real work in therapy doesn't happen until you're a least a year in. You're not "behind" in any way. Therapy is about a relationship - and those don't develop quickly. Settle in: you're in for the long haul. There are no quick fixes.

She listens, and seems very sympathetic to what I'm going through. She offers a lot of good advice and shows me new ways of looking at things. But none of it changes how I feel.

Ah... .the epic battle between the intellect and the heart. It's an AWFUL battle (ask me how I know). I understand what you're saying here - all the logical arguments in the world aren't effective because emotion doesn't respond to logic. There is a neurological basis for this (it involves our brain structure). You're not alone in this.

I left feeling no better than when I had walked in. In fact I kinda felt worse because I couldn't offer up a single rebuttal to her arguments. I had to concede that she made good points, but it didn't change my state of mind in any way.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that it didn't change your emotional state in any way? That's why your therapist and the people who post on these boards can't convince you that you shouldn't contact her husband - because you're being driven by your emotions in this. I know how that feels - the heart wants what it wants and no amount of logic can influence that.

My ex was very sexually active, and after her husband returned home, I have reason to believe that they had a threesome with a woman he works with, and I'm stuck with those images in my head and it makes me hate her. I'm not sure exactly why it bothers me so much. I'm not the judgemental type, and I don't see anything morally wrong it. We were no longer in a relationship, but she was still always going on and on about how much she loved me and how she wished she could be with me. The thought that she could so easily have sex with anyone so soon after everything that happened between she and I hurts... .

There's ^ an example of that "epic battle" between the heart and the head. "I'm not the judgemental type... .I don't see anything morally wrong with it... .we were no longer in a r/s... ." = head: calm the hell down! You don't even have a RIGHT to be upset about this! Versus: "she was still always going on and on about how much she loved me and how she wished she could be with me... .how could she so easily have sex with anyone so soon after everything that happened between she and I... ." = heart: absolutely searing pain, like a hot, sharpened knife through your gut.

Again, I completely understand - I was in a committed r/s for 8 years and my ex slept with a guy she worked with. I have NEVER experienced pain like that before in my life - I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. The images I couldn't get out of my head, my anger at how the words she said (loved me, needed me) were the exact opposite of her actions. All of it, I understand. This is where the "cry like a baby" kicks in - yes? For me, what was underlying all of this pain was a single cry from my heart: "How could you say you loved me and then do this to me - rip me completely apart?" I cried about this for months.

It makes me see just how insignificant I really was to her.

Ah... .be careful here. This is just like my "my life is sh*t/her life is great" narrative that isn't true. IT'S NOT TRUE - stop telling yourself this. Here is your story that is closer to the truth: I became romantically involved with an unstable woman who cared for me in her way, for as long as she could, but the disorder interfered. It always does, Nuitari. That doesn't mean you were insignificant to her at ALL.

It makes me see just how insignificant I really was to her. I bring this up because this is something I'm stuck on. I need to be okay with it before I move on, so I keep thinking about it over and over, trying to be okay with it. But how can I be okay with it? But I can't move on otherwise? I'm trapped in a loop, and something at some point has to give.

Of course you can't get "comfortable" with being "insignificant"! What you might consider is changing this thought - you're NOT insignificant, she DID care about you - but you also made some mistakes, right? Getting involved with a married student, for example. (NOT judging here - but it was likely that this would end badly from the start). Getting involved with someone who, when you look back on it, was clearly unstable. At some point (when you begin to resolve your strong emotions about her), you will begin looking at your choices in this situation and why you made them.

Here's part of the reason for your choices:  You said: I've always had a very difficult time getting close to and trusting others. There was always a fear that something bad would happen if I did that. So I've always been a recluse. And in one of your very first posts you said: Despite all the inherent problems of a BPD relationship, there are also a lot of amazing things about it too... .when they are at their best, the relationship is wonderful.  I don't know if it was her BPD, or if we just naturally clicked, but I never felt that level of closeness with anyone, and I'm afraid I'll never find that again.

Some of your anger is tied up with your fears, and getting to the bottom of your fears (of getting close to and trusting people; of never being in another r/s) - THAT is your work today. But you can't begin that work until you resolve your bitter disappointment: that this person who "cured" your lifelong (negative) narrative about yourself suddenly cut and ran. Now you're left with the same narrative about yourself - one which honestly predates your ex - and it's easier to be angry with her than to examine why you have had these fears and issues for your entire life. Again, ask me how I know.    I FINALLY began to get past my anger and hurt at my ex when I started to recognize that my post b/u pain wasn't all about my ex: it was about all of my hopes and dreams for the r/s that were now dead - along with my fears about myself that were triggered when we broke up. My fear that I wasn't worthy of love; my fear that I could never have a r/s and all those things that go along with it. But then I started to get curious about WHY I've struggled with that for so long - which is a story for another thread.  Suffice to say that no one else could "cure" these issues of mine with their love for me - just like I couldn't cure my ex's BPD with my love for her. My self esteem and feelings of worthiness have to come from within me - because placing them in someone else's hands is a dangerous proposition.

I feel like I've been seriously damaged, and I don't know how to communicate that to my therapist.

When we're experiencing very strong emotions, our ability to communicate clearly is impaired. There is actually a neurological reason for this. I would suggest you print out this entire thread and hand it to your therapist. I think it would be very, very valuable. (I would sometimes type things out to give to my therapist because I knew when we were face to face the words wouldn't come to me.)

I like Buddhism a lot. Several years ago, I got really into Buddhism and did lots of reading. But the truth is I haven't found the strength to make those kind of efforts. I am in a complete state of feeling right now. There is no thinking, just feeling.

In some ways, I think you're running from what you're feeling. That's the reason for all the focus on your ex and her husband - because, painful though it is, it's actually easier than looking at your own pain and fears.

I still don't know how to get comfortable with the idea of moving on and letting go without first doing something to relieve what I'm feeling.

You have convinced yourself (there are those pesky thoughts again!) that contacting the husband is the only thing you can "do" to relieve what you're feeling. It is certainly one of the things you can do - but it feels like your only option because you've believed the thought that it is the only  thing that will help you. You are wrong about this - but I won't try to continue to convince you; you have to come to it on your own. There are other options. Like exploring this:

I don't show emotions well. I never have. Where most people will get highly emotional, I will just freeze up in the same situation.

That ^ is a nervous system response (fight, flight, freeze). There are reasons for this. Begin to pay attention to what you're feeling in your body during these situations.

I don't know what's wrong with me, but its always been a big problem for me. I think its a big part of why I haven't acted on my feelings yet. No matter what, I always feel that I have to appear calm, and it takes a huge effort to show what I'm feeling to the outside world. And when I do, all I'm capable of showing is a small fraction of what I'm feeling.

This "freeze" is a survival response. It's not random - it likely helped you in situations that were dangerous (or that you perceived as dangerous) a long time ago - likely in childhood.

As a result, I took a lot of crap from my ex that I shouldn't have. Even before losing my job, I was already in a very bad place, and didn't have the backbone to tell my ex how her actions were making me feel. Even after I lost my job, I still remained outwardly calm. I never could find a voice of my own. And now when I look back I am disgusted with how I just sat back and calmly watched as someone destroyed everything I worked so hard to attain. Its becoming too much for me to hold in. And now I just want to shout at them for a little while. How can someone go through what I went through and NOT have an emotional outburst? That's the problem. I never had one, and I think I'm entitled. Her husband got to have one, and his experience was nowhere near as traumatic as mine. How can I just take all of that crap from her, and then continue to remain silent because I'm afraid of what else might happen to me?

This "voicelessness" is often one that arises in childhood as well. All of this is VERY worth exploring with your therapist.

Perhaps you would consider that some of this intense anger you're feeling is an anger towards yourself? For remaining silent? For remaining calm? For not standing up for yourself? Your overwhelming desire to confront her husband is really about ALL of the occasions in your life that you were silent, you were calm and you didn't stand up for yourself in situations where most other people would have practiced self-care and said, "NO! That's not okay! You've crossed a boundary. I'm UPSET." Instead, you freeze. As if your life depends on it? Why? I'm guessing the bodily sensations you feel when you choose NOT to respond is an anxiety in the pit of your stomach. Am I right? If so, there are reasons for that.

 So it might feel good to confront her husband - and you might decide to go ahead and do it - but confronting her husband won't get to the root of your voicelessness.

I feel so betrayed by her. I know that must sound silly because, if anyone should feel betrayed by her, its her husband, not some guy she had been sleeping with behind his back. But he doesn't even know that we had an affair. He thinks I was just some guy who was harassing his poor wife at school. I'm pretty sure its the husband who is supposed to feel betrayed in situations like these, not the other guy. But all of the pain and feelings of betrayal that should belong to him, I got them all. Not only that, but I had lose my job too. All the bad stuff fell on me while he got to do this really shallow and vindictive thing and continue to have the illusion of having a loving and faithful wife. As usual, I remained silent when I should have spoken up. I let myself be a scapegoat so that this guy's marriage can continue uninterrupted while my world was falling apart. My ex always said that it would kill him if he ever found out about the affair. I did this guy a big favor by not telling him, after he didn't hesitate to ruin my career. So, yeah, I think it is very unfair. I feel like I've spent the past two years whining about this, and at some point I'm going to have to grow a backbone and stop whining and actually do something.

I don't believe any of this. There marriage is not "perfect" or uninterrupted. I can tell you that even while my ex was sleeping with the guy she worked with and I didn't know, our r/s was as far from perfect as you can get. He has not escaped "unscathed" while you bear all the burden. Stop telling yourself this - it's not true. He has a wife with BPD and you are likely not the first affair she's had. He knows, just like, in the back of my mind, I knew. I just didn't want to believe it.

My therapist is going on maternity leave soon, and I'm supposed to see a colleague of her's in her absence. Part of me would like to believe that this new therapist will be a better fit, but I'm pretty sure its going to be the same story all over again, because the problem isn't with my therapist. I think its with me. I can't begin to get well until I actually want to stop obsessing, but how do make myself want to stop? What am I missing? Can it be that my problems are just too severe for conventional therapy? I feel so overwhelmed, and a one hour a week therapy session just isn't cutting it. I feel like I'm trying to put out a forest fire with a water pistol.

 

Funny, this "changing of therapists" happened to me as well. I liked my first therapist, but it was my second therapist (who adheres to the view that trauma and it's aftermath is primarily a nervous system response that can be healed) that really helped me.

It's funny that you keep saying that you feel you need to "do" something. My therapist had me kick; squeeze a pillow; stand and push against a wall while I was talking... .we didn't do this at every session, but behind it is the idea that the body needs to "finish" the nervous system response that was thwarted during the original trauma. Believe it or not, it helped me.

[Reforming]

Hi Nuitari,

I think jhkbuzz has offered some very wise advice.

It's not easy picking up the pieces and rebuilding your life but it's definitely possible. Forgive me for being a bit brutal but your pain is not unique. A lot of us here have experienced trauma and grief at the loss of families, marriages and long term relationships and damaged careers.  Like jhkbuzz my ex cheated on me in a long term relationship. It was utterly devastating and the chaos and hurt flooded through every part of my life. Whenever I allow myself to slip into a victim mentality I just end up angry and powerless so I make a conscious choice to reject victimhood and take responsibility for my own life and happiness in what ever way I can.

The cornerstone of this is personal responsibility. Owning our choices.

it is my fault that I lost my job. That's all on me. I knew from the very beginning that I was risking my job, but at the time that was ok because I thought I found something better!

This is the truth. Full Stop. You lost your job because you had an affair with a student. Everything else is just static.

You feel cheated that the gamble didn't pay off. I understand that it hurt and it's tough but nobody forced you to have an affair. You chose to. Your affair was not about her husband or the quality of their marriage. It was about you and her. Her husband had nothing to do with it... .

She spoke highly of her husband and said that they had always had a happy marriage

The husband returned home, and things got really messy. I get the impression that they had a pretty good marriage up to that point, and he couldn't understand her sudden animosity and lack of feelings for him. He blamed me for turning his wife against him. Long story short, he convinces her not to leave him. And now, two years later, she's convinced that he loves her and genuinely cannot understand her attitude toward him when he was away.

When you have an affair with a married man or woman you're getting involved with someone who:

1. is not fully available
2. is willing to deceive their partner, family etc
3. lacks the emotional maturity to confront / resolve the problems and challenges that come with most relationships
4. has chosen to begin another relationship without concluding the one they're already in

This is why the outcomes of affairs are typically very poor.

You've never gone in the details of how her husband contacted the school but given the circumstances his behaviour is hardly surprising. He had no reason to believe you when you said that relationship was over. Given the circumstances he had very good reason to distrust you completely.
He stood to loose an awful lot: his wife, his family, his home and his children. Most people would fight to try and keep their family together.

I need that marriage to fall apart"

All I keep thinking is how sick this world is if she and her husband can somehow reconcile and be happy after wrecking someone's life

When you think on your need for revenge - and yes we're talking about revenge here - it's worth thinking about the children. Do they deserve to be caught in the fallout?

Sending a letter to her husband is complete the opposite to detachment. Have you considered the that it's actually a way of reconnecting with her.

There are other strategies, skills and techniques which would probably help your ruminations. Mindfulness, journaling, inner child dialogues. All of these require effort and persistence but they do work. You might not believe that you can find the energy or the focus to do these but others have

I'm not judging your T but it might be worth both rethinking your therapist and the type of therapy you've chosen.

I also did a fair bit of research into different therapies before I chose one - Schema therapy. I also worked with a couple of different Ts before I found one I was happy with.

In my experience to get the best out of therapy you need to make a conscious effort to practice the skills you're trying to learn every day. It may well feel completely frustrating and fruitless but one day a week is not going to reboot your thinking.

The bigger question is why this relationship has had such a profound effect on you

Before my relationship with my borderline, I had been alone for several years. I didn't date much and considered myself a loner. I didn't feel a need to be in a relationship. I didn't need someone to complete me to be happy, and I was never lonely. At least that's what I always told myself. My borderline made me question all of this. She woke something up in me

Borderlines have a way of knocking down that walls that we build around ourselves. She seems to have opened up parts of you that were locked away. A lot of us have experienced this.

I've always had a low opinion of myself. I don't know where that comes from. I grew up in a loving family. But my insecurities have created huge problems for my social life. My ex is one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen. I never would have guessed in a million years that a woman like her, who could have her pick of any man she wanted, would be interested in me. I'll never know what she saw in me. I sometimes wonder if she sensed those insecurities and decided from it that I would be easy prey. Whatever the case, she put me on a pedestal. She made me feel special

This goes right to the heart of a relationship with a borderline. This is what you need to explore with your T.

She was unique, and I'm afraid I'll never find with someone else what I had with her. What I'm finding hard to process is the knowledge that, while she was unique, I wasn't.

This is hard - accepting that something we felt was very special and unique wasn't what we believed it was. It needs to be be grieved.

Change and progress is about tiny incremental steps - persisting with healthy strategies and skills. Often we don't even notice that we're making progress until one day when the world feels suddenly brighter.

Good luck

Reforming

[Nuitari]

jhkbuzz,
 

I want to thank you for taking the time to reply to my comments in such a thorough way.  It is clear from your writings that you do get where I'm coming from, and just knowing that someone gets it is a huge comfort. Your post made my day a little more bearable, and I appreciate that.

Again, I completely understand - I was in a committed r/s for 8 years and my ex slept with a guy she worked with. I have NEVER experienced pain like that before in my life - I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. The images I couldn't get out of my head, my anger at how the words she said (loved me, needed me) were the exact opposite of her actions. All of it, I understand. This is where the "cry like a baby" kicks in - yes? For me, what was underlying all of this pain was a single cry from my heart: "How could you say you loved me and then do this to me - rip me completely apart?" I cried about this for months.

You nailed it. Now, even if I can put an end to my obsessive-compulsive thoughts, I still have no clue how I am going to remove that pain that you just perfectly described. At least I've been provided with exercises for reducing my OCD, but what in the hell am I supposed to do about the pain and emptiness I feel? Learn to live with it? I'm afraid it’s become debilitating. How can I ever trust anyone else again? I'm not sure I can handle another experience like this again. I hope you don't mind me asking, but have you dated at all sense your ex? And if so, how has that been going? Has your trauma had any lasting effects in terms of trusting and allowing yourself to actually feel things for someone? The only way I have found to detach from my ex has been to utterly exterminate those feelings. All I have left to feel now is hate. I'm left with a nagging sensation that I've killed those feelings permanently, not just where my ex is concerned. I don't know if I'll ever get them back. I'm not even sure I want them back.
 

Here is your story that is closer to the truth: I became romantically involved with an unstable woman who cared for me in her way, for as long as she could, but the disorder interfered.

Perhaps. But when the disorder interfered, she continued to use me and lead me on. If I am going to be completely honest with myself, she consciously used me, pretending she felt things she didn't. It is so obvious now when I look back. When I was no longer necessary to satisfy her sexual cravings and she dropped the charade of leaving her husband, she decided she still needed me for other things, namely to further her academic career. She was always making requests of me; meeting her for tutoring, helping her write papers (because English isn't her native language), and proof-reading papers for her, etc. All the while, she was still professing her undying love for me, but something had changed. She only came around when she needed something. It was so hard to refuse to help her. When I did finally get up the nerve to tell her that I no longer wanted to see her if we had no future together, she completely fell apart. She cried uncontrollably, calling herself selfish and worthless over and over, and begging me not to hate her. I had no idea what was wrong with her, but I felt like, for the first time, I was seeing the real her, and I figured that this was my chance to get some honest answers from her. I just asked her point blank if her feelings were real, or if she just made them up. She didn't say anything. There was this long awkward silence that seemed to go on for an eternity, and she finally said "I have to go." That says it all. She knowingly used my feelings for her own personal benefit. Even after this, the requests for help started up again. Even after I lost my job, she continued to ask me for help. When she was studying for her admissions test for dental school, she called me and asked that I tutor her for the math section of the test. I remember her saying "Won't you help me, love of my life?" and then she laughed. Those words were like a slap in the face. She said "love of my life" in such a sarcastic way, as if she was mocking herself. Somehow I was able to block these things out and not think about them while I was still talking to her, but now they're all coming back, and it only makes my hate grow. She's a monster. I finally got up the nerve to expose my feelings to someone that I trusted, and she used them for her own personal benefit. I remember the look on her face when I discovered her husband's fears of having HIV and asked her if that is why she weren't sleeping with him (as opposed to her being unable due to her feelings for me, like she tried to tell me). That look said it all. She had the look of a little girl who had just been caught in a lie. She had no hang ups about sleeping with me behind her husband's back, so she certainly wouldn't have any over sleeping with him behind mine, someone she never made vows to. And then there is the incident with her brother-in-law... .

When I remember all of these things, it’s very hard for me to buy that I was ever "significant" to her. No one is "significant" to her. She uses people like tools.

Some of your anger is tied up with your fears, and getting to the bottom of your fears (of getting close to and trusting people; of never being in another r/s) - THAT is your work today. But you can't begin that work until you resolve your bitter disappointment: that this person who "cured" your lifelong (negative) narrative about yourself suddenly cut and ran. Now you're left with the same narrative about yourself - one which honestly predates your ex - and it's easier to be angry with her than to examine why you have had these fears and issues for your entire life. Again, ask me how I know.    I FINALLY began to get past my anger and hurt at my ex when I started to recognize that my post b/u pain wasn't all about my ex: it was about all of my hopes and dreams for the r/s that were now dead - along with my fears about myself that were triggered when we broke up. My fear that I wasn't worthy of love; my fear that I could never have a r/s and all those things that go along with it. But then I started to get curious about WHY I've struggled with that for so long - which is a story for another thread. Suffice to say that no one else could "cure" these issues of mine with their love for me - just like I couldn't cure my ex's BPD with my love for her. My self esteem and feelings of worthiness have to come from within me - because placing them in someone else's hands is a dangerous proposition.

I would like to have that same kind of self-reflection. Part of me was hoping that therapy would help me learn something about myself, that I would see that my anger isn’t really connected to my ex, but comes from somewhere else, and upon learning the true source, I would become detached and free. But I can’t even calm down enough to think on those levels. I’m livid. Any attempt to try just makes me more disgruntled and tempted to lash out.

Perhaps you would consider that some of this intense anger you're feeling is an anger towards yourself? For remaining silent? For remaining calm? For not standing up for yourself? Your overwhelming desire to confront her husband is really about ALL of the occasions in your life that you were silent, you were calm and you didn't stand up for yourself in situations where most other people would have practiced self-care and said, "NO! That's not okay! You've crossed a boundary. I'm UPSET." Instead, you freeze. As if your life depends on it? Why? I'm guessing the bodily sensations you feel when you choose NOT to respond is an anxiety in the pit of your stomach. Am I right? If so, there are reasons for that.

Yes! Contacting the husband is my way of redeeming myself, not for having an affair with his wife (I will have to own that), but for remaining silent and calm when I shouldn’t have. I was in a situation where NO ONE should have remained silent and calm.
 
My therapist talks a lot about boundaries, and it’s made me realize that a lack of boundaries with my ex is what screwed with my head so much. When her husband was away, there were absolutely no boundaries between us, not mentally and definitely not physically.  I got a harsh dose of reality when her husband came back home and I realized she wasn’t going to leave him. Whenever I would ask if they were sleeping together, she would actually tell me that she didn’t want to talk about personal stuff like that.  After having no boundaries, there was suddenly a wall between us, and she didn’t want me to know what was going on on the other side. But I knew her well enough to know exactly what was going on. My ex was very hypersexual. That’s a side of herself that she chose to show me in her husband’s absence.  And then she tried to deny to me that that part of her existed when her husband returned. That is truly insulting, that we could have no boundaries and be so close, only to have her treat me like a stranger when her needs changed. Ordinarily I would agree that what a married couple does in their own bedroom is none of my business, but after everything that happened between us, I feel that she lost the right to say “that’s personal and I’m not discussing that with you.” That is why I feel so used by her. I had a right to know, especially given that she was so insistent on remaining in my life. She tried to play the “It’s none of your business” card while still asking so much of me. I felt used. It was ok for her to have boundaries but I wasn’t allowed to have any. I couldn’t even leave town for a few days without her calling me and demanding to know what I’m doing. I made several attempts to get out of that situation, but she’d always resurface.  I finally reached a very low point where I broke down and sobbed uncontrollably. The husband evidently took my breakdown to be part of a ploy to steal his wife. That’s why I’m so upset. Everything I did, even my attempts to distance myself from her, was seen by him as part of a scheme to get his wife. I never had any schemes! Her husband just decided for me what my motivations were and what I was “really” feeling. He shouldn’t get to decide for me what I’m feeling. We met face to face that day, and he was very willing to have a dialogue with me, but I was in such an emotional state that all I wanted to do was flee from that situation, just like I flee from all emotional situations. And now I can’t live with myself until I can have that dialogue with the husband one day. 

There marriage is not "perfect" or uninterrupted. I can tell you that even while my ex was sleeping with the guy she worked with and I didn't know, our r/s was as far from perfect as you can get. He has not escaped "unscathed" while you bear all the burden.

Given her problems, my brain is telling me your right. But sometimes I’m not sure. What little interaction I have had with him suggests that he is so in the dark about everything it’s ridiculous. He thinks I led his wife astray. My big “crime” in all of this was getting involved with a student. That was wrong because I was in a position of authority, and so the burden was on me, not her, to keep things professional.  But that doesn’t necessarily mean that I initiated the relationship. I think her husband is confusing those two issues. He is thinking “he was in a position of authority = he started it.” He is so arrogant that he can’t conceive of the possibility that his wife got involved with another man without the man having to seduce her and brainwash her? That’s what he accused me of. I wish he could have been a fly on the wall in my office the day she first came onto me.  If he could have witnessed her that day he would feel very foolish telling me to “stop pursuing” his wife. I’m also pretty sure that he isn’t aware that she kissed his brother, or that she wanted to have sex with me after he came back home because she couldn’t get it from him due to him thinking he might have HIV. Instead of having to live with all these horrible facts about her, like I do, I’m seen as the terrible guy who he has to protect his innocent wife from. People keep telling me that it doesn’t matter who initiated the affair, but I can’t believe that. I know it would matter if it were me. I think it would hurt him so much more to learn of the things I outlined above, and part of me would get a grim satisfaction at waking him up to that reality. It’s hard to have that kind of ammunition against him and not use it after he called the school.

He knows, just like, in the back of my mind, I knew. I just didn't want to believe it.

If he does indeed know, then I am even more confused at his actions. Why would he fight so hard so save a marriage to a woman who can be so unfaithful? It doesn’t make sense. My ex used to tell me that she wished she’d met me first. I cringe now when I think about that. I feel like I dodged a big bullet. If she’d met me first, it might be me she was married to and cheating on. My therapist said that she doesn’t envy anyone who is in a relationship with her, and neither do I. No self-respecting man would want to be in that kind of relationship. He’s not only fighting for it, but he’s willing to step on other people to do it. It makes me sick.

[Nuitari]

You lost your job because you had an affair with a student. Everything else is just static.

But its all the "static" that I'm so hung up on. I'm not singling you out or anyone specifically, but when I share my story with others, I sometimes feel like they stop listening once they learn that I had an affair with a married student, and aren't hearing anything else I say. When you say that everything else is static, you're speaking from your own perspective. It is static to you, but not to me. What you call "static" is to me very relevant.

You feel cheated that the gamble didn't pay off. I understand that it hurt and it's tough but nobody forced you to have an affair. You chose to. Your affair was not about her husband or the quality of their marriage. It was about you and her. Her husband had nothing to do with it... .

You think this is just about me being a sore loser. It isn't. This also isn't about me blaming someone else for the affair. I'm sorry if I'm giving that impression. I've tried really hard to elaborate on what this is about. Putting it all into words is a difficult and tedious thing to do, but that doesn't make it static.

He had no reason to believe you when you said that relationship was over.

I'm lost on why it was my place to assure him that the relationship was over. Shouldn't that burden fall on her? You know, the person who made vows to him? She's not inanimate. Why does he need the assurance of an outsider, unless he felt he couldn't trust the woman he was married to. If he did think that the relationship was ongoing, then he also knew his wife was untrustworthy. Why was the burden on me to end a relationship with his wife? She is just as sentient as I am, and her actions should matter more to him that mine. Many people have tried to explain to me the husband's reasons for doing what he did, and all the arguments I have heard seem to be based on the premise that she is an object that he has to fight to protect. I don't get it. I never saw her as an object that I had to fight for. I never even tried to fight for her. Why? Because she's a person who is making her own decisions and is responsible for her own actions. As devastated as I was, I respected her decision to remain with her husband. I wasn't fighting for her. He didn't have to do what he did. He was the only one "fighting" for her.

Given the circumstances he had very good reason to distrust you completely.

He made some pretty unjustified assumptions about me. Did it ever occur to him that she was lying to me? That I thought his marriage was already ending? Instead he saw it as me persuading her to leave him, and he lashed out at me on that basis. Now, what I did was wrong no matter how you look at it, and I can completely understand his reasons for being hurt and angry. What I cannot understand are his thoughts. He seemed insistent on thinking that I somehow corrupted his wife and made her behave in the ways that she did. I was just as hurt and as much of a victim (perhaps moreso) of his wife as he was. I don't like being a scapegoat for all of his problems at home. I was not what was wrong with his marriage.    

He stood to loose an awful lot: his wife, his family, his home and his children. Most people would fight to try and keep their family together.

If he felt that he was in danger of losing those things, I wasn't creating that feeling for him. She was doing that. I was only a threat in his mind. That's what makes the whole thing so tragic.

I honestly feel like I got myself involved in a situation without knowing the rules first. When a married woman has an affair, is it normal for the husband to automatically assume the other guy is seducing her? Is the husband supposed to  assume the other guy started it? Is he allowed to make up anything he wants? Is the woman by default seen as somehow playing a passive role in the affair, even though her actions are driving all the drama? Are the husband and I supposed to see her as some kind of trophy to be won? I saw her as a human making her own decisions, and I just assumed he would do the same. Does a husband supposed to care if his wife is untrustworthy? Or is it enough for him that he can just forbid affairs without having to worry about her desires or happiness? None of it makes sense.

When you think on your need for revenge - and yes we're talking about revenge here - it's worth thinking about the children. Do they deserve to be caught in the fallout?

I try thinking about the children. They are definitely a reason not to seek "revenge," and I wish I could say that's why I haven't done it. But it isn't. I'm too angry to think at all. I'm hanging on by a thread. Its not fair that I lost so much and I'm still left with the burden of worrying about other people's feelings. Why do I have to care about other people's feelings when no one gives a damn about mine? No one else in my place could have gone through what I have without having an emotional outburst of some type. I feel like I'm being asked to do something unnatural.

Sending a letter to her husband is complete the opposite to detachment. Have you considered the that it's actually a way of reconnecting with her.

I have, and this is a big reason why I've gone so long without doing it. In a weird way, it feels like going backwards, not forwards. But its hard to see how I can go the rest of my life without getting so much off my chest. The belief that I will one day contact the husband has been the only thing that's kept me sane to this point.

[steelwork]

Hey Nuitari,

I've followed your thread, though I haven't always read every word, I admit. I just want to say, from me to you, that I sense that you have a real need to feel understood. I do too. Who doesn't? But I feel like I need it a little more than most people, for a lot of historical, personal reasons. I  find myself worrying the facts with people like a dog with a bone, trying to get them to come around to my way of understanding. It can be exhausting, and some people just make up their minds and nothing will change them, and it drives me mad. It seems like an existential imperative that I convince them. I sense a little of that happening with you.

So, from me to you: you don't have to get all the nuances of your situation across to an anonymous collection of forum-posters. After a while, the effort becomes a matter of diminishing returns. I think some of us take in the details a little more than others, and some of us just have immovable values such that we are always going to come back with "you had an affair, that's all that matters" or "you aren't taking responsibility for your part" or whatever it may be. I feel like your job is to sift through it, keep an open mind, take what is valuable, and keep growing.

Did you have a conversation with your T about therapeutic approaches?

[steelwork]

Come to think of it, I wonder if some of your desire to contact her husband has to do with being misunderstood--being cast as the predator, the lothario--when you know different.

[Reforming]

But its all the "static" that I'm so hung up on. I'm not singling you out or anyone specifically, but when I share my story with others, I sometimes feel like they stop listening once they learn that I had an affair with a married student, and aren't hearing anything else I say. When you say that everything else is static, you're speaking from your own perspective. It is static to you, but not to me. What you call "static" is to me very relevant.

I actually shared my own experienced of having an affair because I wanted to make it crystal clear that I had made similar mistakes.

This isn't about more judgement or condemnation but moving forward begins with taking responsibility for our own choices and actions. For most of the this thread you have tried to shift responsibility for losing your job onto your exes husband - blaming him for damaging your life. I understand that it's painful to accept this but it was your choice to have an affair with student that got you fired

You think this is just about me being a sore loser. It isn't. This also isn't about me blaming someone else for the affair. I'm sorry if I'm giving that impression. I've tried really hard to elaborate on what this is about. Putting it all into words is a difficult and tedious thing to do, but that doesn't make it static.

You stated that you need their marriage to fail… Perhaps static is the wrong word but I think a lot of this seems peripheral. And we're talking about you blaming your exes husband for losing your job. Choosing to have a relationship with a student is why you lost your job.

I'm lost on why it was my place to assure him that the relationship was over. Shouldn't that burden fall on her? You know, the person who made vows to him? She's not inanimate. Why does he need the assurance of an outsider, unless he felt he couldn't trust the woman he was married to. If he did think that the relationship was ongoing, then he also knew his wife was untrustworthy. Why was the burden on me to end a relationship with his wife? She is just as sentient as I am, and her actions should matter more to him that mine. Many people have tried to explain to me the husband's reasons for doing what he did, and all the arguments I have heard seem to be based on the premise that she is an object that he has to fight to protect. I don't get it. I never saw her as an object that I had to fight for. I never even tried to fight for her. Why? Because she's a person who is making her own decisions and is responsible for her own actions. As devastated as I was, I respected her decision to remain with her husband. I wasn't fighting for her. He didn't have to do what he did. He was the only one "fighting" for her.

Again it feels like you're trying to shift your responsibility for choices and behaviour elsewhere. You chose to have an affair with his wife even though you knew she was married. You could hardly be blind to the hurt or damage it would cause him. She is culpable for her behaviour, but so are you. We're not talking about a teenage fling - we're talking about a marriage, a family with children. How you would you feel if you were in his shoes?

He made some pretty unjustified assumptions about me.

He assumed you were having an affair with his wife - he was right wasn't he? He also concluded that as someone in a position of authority and responsibility you abused the trust you were given. Do you think he was wrong?

Did it ever occur to him that she was lying to me? That I thought his marriage was already ending? Instead he saw it as me persuading her to leave him, and he lashed out at me on that basis. Now, what I did was wrong no matter how you look at it, and I can completely understand his reasons for being hurt and angry. What I cannot understand are his thoughts. He seemed insistent on thinking that I somehow corrupted his wife and made her behave in the ways that she did. I was just as hurt and as much of a victim (perhaps moreso) of his wife as he was. I don't like being a scapegoat for all of his problems at home. I was not what was wrong with his marriage.

   

I think you have already answered this in one of your earlier posts. See below

I get the impression that they had a pretty good marriage up to that point, and he couldn't understand her sudden animosity and lack of feelings for him. He blamed me for turning his wife against him. Long story short, he convinces her not to leave him. And now, two years later, she's convinced that he loves her and genuinely cannot understand her attitude toward him when he was away.

Very few marriages are perfect but an affair will undermine the foundations of even a good marriage. And yes people in happy marriages can have affairs

If he felt that he was in danger of losing those things, I wasn't creating that feeling for him. She was doing that. I was only a threat in his mind. That's what makes the whole thing so tragic.

You weren't just a threat in his in his mind - you were having on affair with the man's wife and she was threatening to leave him for you. You need to take responsibility for your own behaviour and recognise the impact it has one the lives of others

I honestly feel like I got myself involved in a situation without knowing the rules first. When a married woman has an affair, is it normal for the husband to automatically assume the other guy is seducing her? Is the husband supposed to  assume the other guy started it? Is he allowed to make up anything he wants? Is the woman by default seen as somehow playing a passive role in the affair, even though her actions are driving all the drama? Are the husband and I supposed to see her as some kind of trophy to be won? I saw her as a human making her own decisions, and I just assumed he would do the same. Does a husband supposed to care if his wife is untrustworthy? Or is it enough for him that he can just forbid affairs without having to worry about her desires or happiness? None of it makes sense.

There are no rules when it comes to affairs - they frequently get messy and someone always gets hurt. I don't believe that you're naive. But it's worth reiterating that it wasn't the affair that got you fired - it was having relationship with a student.

I try thinking about the children. They are definitely a reason not to seek "revenge," and I wish I could say that's why I haven't done it. But it isn't. I'm too angry to think at all. I'm hanging on by a thread. Its not fair that I lost so much and I'm still left with the burden of worrying about other people's feelings. Why do I have to care about other people's feelings when no one gives a damn about mine? No one else in my place could have gone through what I have without having an emotional outburst of some type. I feel like I'm being asked to do something unnatural.

Do you think your own behaviour was fair? You're also assuming that other people involved - her husband - is not feeling any pain. Believe me he is and their children will also be effected by what's been going on.

Nuitari a lot of people here are genuinely rooting for you. We are not here to judge you. We all want you to come through this, to heal and find happiness. There are lots of things that might feel natural - perhaps instinctive is a better word - but are deeply destructive. Anger, violence, retaliation. We learn to control our urge to act in these ways because we learn that it's counterproductive and destructive.

I have, and this is a big reason why I've gone so long without doing it. In a weird way, it feels like going backwards, not forwards. But its hard to see how I can go the rest of my life without getting so much off my chest. The belief that I will one day contact the husband has been the only thing that's kept me sane to this point.

You may feel it's keeping you sane but if you re-read your thread from the very beginning it feels like you're directing more and more anger towards her husband.  I'm not a T but perhaps this is because the the relationship and your therapy is opening up wounds that you didn't realise you have. Incidentally I thought I had a very happy childhood until I went to therapy. I'm not suggesting that your parents were not loving or devoted but one's childhood doesn't have to be traumatic or abusive to leave a mark.

Keep posting

Reforming

[Nuitari]

I  find myself worrying the facts with people like a dog with a bone, trying to get them to come around to my way of understanding. It can be exhausting, and some people just make up their minds and nothing will change them, and it drives me mad. It seems like an existential imperative that I convince them. I sense a little of that happening with you.

Yes! Your above passage describes me perfectly. My T and I have talked a lot about this, and she thinks this is what is driving my need to contact the husband. My anger with my ex's husband doesn't so much lie with his actions, as it does with his mentality. That's what I cannot accept. My T tells me that he has his own version of events, that his truth isn't my truth. I can't buy that. There is only one truth. There aren't different versions of it. He may have his own version of what happened in his head, but its wrong. Plain and simple. Atoms are real, we landed on the moon, and my ex's husband is wrong. Those are facts.  It just eats away at me when I see people "choosing" their beliefs, just pulling them from the air. Its irresponsible thinking. My actions were wrong, that is also a fact. But that does not equate with the fact that he had problems with his marriage. If I had turned her down, it most likely would have been some other guy having an affair with his wife. He was bound to come home to that situation no matter what. Many members here, as well my T, have remarked that she's most likely had affairs before. If that's true, it makes it even more difficult to understand his mentality that somehow removing me from the picture was the thing that was going to fix his marriage. It just seems like shallow, shortsighted thinking to me. At some point, he's got to wake up realize who the real problem is. Being in a marriage to an unfaithful spouse shouldn't entitle one to invent their own reality. Sorry for rambling. I wasn't intending to type all that. I mainly just wanted to say that I can identify with what you said above, and its a big part of what I'm going through now.

Did you have a conversation with your T about therapeutic approaches?

Not yet. My T had to have her baby early because of emergency issues, so I won't be seeing her at least for a while. I'm supposed to start seeing another therapist in her stead. I've known for a while that was coming, because of my T's pregnancy, and I've been hoping that it might be a breath of fresh air to see someone knew, but now all I want is my regular T back. She knows me and my past pretty well now, and I've grown very comfortable with being able to share personal stuff with her. Its going to be hard having to start all over with someone new.

Come to think of it, I wonder if some of your desire to contact her husband has to do with being misunderstood--being cast as the predator, the lothario--when you know different.

That's a huge part of it. Maybe ALL of it. I always felt like I could easily let this go if he just knew the truth. I have no problem owning up to my mistakes and admitting my wrong doings to him. I just want him to know how it all really went down. One day, if I can lose my anger and desire for revenge, maybe I can remove from that letter the part about sleeping with his wife. But at the very minimum I need to voice my side of what happened. That is very important to me.

Thank you for your post. 
 

[Nuitari]

And we're talking about you blaming your exes husband for losing your job.

This right here is where we need to start. You're not understanding that this isn't about blaming him for my job loss. I would have such an easier time accepting what happened if I thought that my relationship with my ex had been something meaningful, even if unsustainable. My ex knowingly played with me. I can no longer believe that her actions were motivated by any real feelings for me. She was exploiting me. No human being deserves to be on the receiving end of that, not even a teacher who had an affair with a student. Regardless of how big of a part I played in all of this, I do not believe my ex could have so easily forgiven her husband for his actions if she really loved me. She could not have so easily shrugged the whole thing off and remained with him like the whole thing never happened. At the very least, she should have told him about our affair. If it had meant anything to her, she would have told him. But it evidently wasn't even important enough to mention. That relationship meant so much to me that I was willing to put everything on the line for it. It wasn't even worth acknowledging to her.  It was easier for her to accept that I lost my job than it ever was to accept that he learn some harsh truths. I had to deal with losing a job that was, before she came along, my only love in life and the realization that it was only because I allowed someone to exploit me on a very personal level while he is allowed the comfort of believing that I was the perpetrator, the "lothario," as Steelwork put it. Its hard being accused of those things after all of her manipulations. After being the victim of her cruelty, can't you understand my temptation to expose her? Does she even appreciate that I never called him and told him? No. She just took for granted that I'm just going to remain silent and "move on" after losing everything so she can pick up her life with her husband. My feelings aren't even considered. She made me feel so small and insignificant, and its hard to see how I can move on without doing something, anything, to redeem myself. I accepted that she was going to remain with him. I never asked her to leave him. All I ever wanted from her was some gesture that I meant something to her, that it was real for her too, that I didn't lose my job over nothing. If I discovered today that she told him, I feel like this would all go away. That's all I need. She should have told him. That one gesture would have meant everything to me. It would have freed. Now do you see? I don't think you can paint all of what I'm going through under the broad and oversimplified brush of blaming the husband for my job loss. My need to contact my ex's husband is being driven by other things. You can call it all static, peripheral, or whatever, but I guarantee you that you would suffer these same feelings if you lived through these events.

He assumed you were having an affair with his wife

No. Again, he doesn't know anything about the affair. That's the problem. He should.

He also concluded that as someone in a position of authority and responsibility you abused the trust you were given. Do you think he was wrong?

No, he's not wrong about that. I owned up to this in my letter didn't I? Again, this isn't about trying to shift blame or avoid responsibility. It's been hard enough admitting the things I am guilty of. I certainly don't like being the scapegoat for the things I'm not, in particular the problems with his marriage, problems that extend well beyond me. Yes, I had an affair with his wife. And yes, I abused the trust I was given. It hurts to admit that. I don't talk about that much here as a I do with my therapist, but its something I'm having a difficult time with. That job was the best thing that ever happened to me, and I threw it away. I still haven't found a way to forgive myself for it. I'm not sure I ever will. That is my emotional baggage, not his. So it doesn't make sense that he should care if I abused my authority. If I had had an affair with some other student, would he have cared? No. If he had been able to trust his wife 100% to not get involved with me, would he have cared about any unethical behavior on my part? No. So you see, this for him wasn't about my code of conduct at all. If he truly trusted her, he wouldn't have felt threatened by me, and probably wouldn't have called the school. His real problem was that he couldn't trust his wife. Wasn't that the real, most immediate threat to his marriage? Shouldn't he care about that? But its like she was inanimate in all this. The school had every reason to fire me.  His, on the other hand, was not concerned with my misconduct, but with maintaining a marriage to a woman he knows he can't trust.  The bottom line is he lashed out at me because he couldn't trust his wife.

You weren't just a threat in his in his mind

I don't buy that. You wouldn't say that if you knew what I was going through at the time. Always staying with family members because I couldn't be alone with my thoughts. Going to school everyday knowing that I'll see her, that she'll insist on asking me for help and me feeling too guilty to refuse her after what we had been through, but inside just wanting to scream at her to leave me alone. Always on the verge of breaking into tears until I finally did.  I was going through hell, and all I wanted to do was forget that I ever met her. No, I wasn't a threat to his marriage.

But it's worth reiterating that it wasn't the affair that got you fired - it was having relationship with a student.

My point exactly. But we both know that wasn't what motivated him to call the school. He called the school because he was in a marriage to an unfaithful wife, and decided to make me the target. He can't trust the woman he's married to. That's his emotional baggage, just like my unethical behavior is mine. I'm angry because not only do I have to carry my own emotional baggage, but he tried to hand me his too, somehow blaming me for his wife's (who is again sentient and has freewill) behavior. I shouldn't have had an affair with a student. But the fact that I did doesn't mean that I initiated it, or that I seduced and brainwashed her. That these beliefs are the first place his mind would go when his wife showed an interest in another man makes it look like he's thinking of her as a mindless object, a piece of property. He claimed that I was smart enough to make her believe that she started it when it was actually me. My ex should be offended by that statement. Its demeaning and it objectifies her. As far as the school is concerned, it doesn't matter who started it. I broke the rules, plain and simple. But as far as he is concerned, I would have thought it would matter a lot. I'm just trying to understand his logic. She initiates the affair, convinces me she's leaving him, and then he accuses me of trying to steal his wife from him and absolves her of all blame as if her actions were my fault. He's either delusional and has serious mental problems of his own, or he's in complete denial. After all the trauma I had to endure at her hands, I can hardly be blamed for wanting to destroy his delirium.

I just want her husband to live in reality. Is that too much to ask for? So many members here, and my T as well, have told me that their marriage doesn't sound like it stand much of a chance. If I believe my ex, even some of her husband's own immediate family told him he never should have gotten married. It seems pretty obvious to everyone else that their marriage is doomed. Why I can't he see it? Did he really think that my being fired was this magical thing that was going to make his marriage OK? It just seems extremely shortsighted on his part. I was a victim of her mental illness, only to have him make me the personification of all his marriage problems. Its like he got to construct out of thin air his own reality and live it. That's why I'm angry. If there is any part of my that wants revenge, it isn't against his actions, its against his mentality. Now, before you say its silly to worry about someone else's mentality, its no sillier than a person washing their hands every ten minutes because of a fear of germs. Simply pointing out the absurdity of one's obsessions doesn't relieve them for that person. But the OCD aside, I can't help but feel that in some way I have a legitimate desire to make myself heard to the husband. My ex said she loved me right up until I lost my job. I never heard it again after that. Instead all I heard afterwards is how sorry she was, how she never meant to take things so far. How can I not feel like a victim? The only two people on this planet who really knows what happened between us is myself and my ex. When I think of how she apologized for what happened over and over, and how she was initially so angry with her husband, it is obvious how she saw the situation. I never blamed her for my job loss, so why the constant apologies? Why get angry at her husband? Because she knows she played me with, and it went too far. Because she knows I wasn't any real threat to their marriage. Her reactions to everything suggests that her assessment is the same as mine. She used me. She took advantage of my feelings for her own personal gain, knowing that I needed to let go, and it messed up my whole life. My T tells me to take this as a learning experience and not allow myself to be abused anymore in future relationships. That's all well and good, but what do I do about the present? I was violated in a very personal way, only to be further stepped on by her husband (and yes, he called the school because of his twisted view of what was happening. That was his motivation.) What am I supposed to do to recover from that, if not speak for myself?

A big reason why I haven't called the husband is because of my new job. I see it as a chance at redemption, to not make the same mistakes. Its been hard accepting what I did, but I hope you can understand that my standing with my former employers is a completely different issue than the more human tragedy that I need to speak out against.     

[bestintentions]

Nuitari -

I haven't read every post of yours, but I can sympathize with the ruminations you've been having.  Have you thought about talking to your doctor about getting on an antidepressant?  Mine started me on Lexapro in August.  Lexapro is often prescribed for people with OCD.  I had to up my dosage after 4 weeks but about 8 weeks in... .it really made a huge difference with ruminations.

Good luck,

bi

[Sunfl0wer]

My anger with my ex's husband doesn't so much lie with his actions, as it does with his mentality. That's what I cannot accept. My T tells me that he has his own version of events, that his truth isn't my truth. I can't buy that. There is only one truth. There aren't different versions of it. He may have his own version of what happened in his head, but its wrong. Plain and simple. Atoms are real, we landed on the moon, and my ex's husband is wrong. Those are facts.  It just eats away at me when I see people "choosing" their beliefs, just pulling them from the air. Its irresponsible thinking

This thread seems painful... .
Have you looked at the lessons?
Where does RA fit into this?

[drained1996]

Nuitari,

I feel you and hear you on your thoughts and feelings.  I've beat my head up against many walls when met with what my mind may define as illogical thinking.  This has helped me tremendously... .many times in life we just have to accept people for who they are and how they are... .Radical Acceptance is a powerful concept once understood and put into use.  Read the whole post here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90041.0
Let us know what you think... .

[fromheeltoheal]

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