The stress and "hits" just keep coming...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

It seems like life is one crisis after another these days.

1) H still hasn't heard anything from his bio family after about 5 months of silence. He's feeling like he wants to write one final letter to them, write them off, un-friend on social media, and move on, hoping that that will give him the sense of closure he doesn't have. His T is advising against that for now but he's really unsure of what to do. It weighs heavily on his mind because he feels like it's the right thing to do but he's not sure a) if closing the door will actually help him get over it or b) he'd regret it after doing it.

2) Once again, he's run into troubles with his psychiatrist. About a year and a half ago, he had one who put him on a drug that caused weight gain (a HUGE no-no to him that he was very clear with the P about) and that led to months-long massive dysregulation. Then, the P dropped communication and it was difficult for him to get in with someone else.

Things with this P started out well. They seemed to hit it off. Then — again, about 5 months ago — the P suggested a gene testing process to see if he might be genetically predisposed to not respond to certain types of drugs and if there are any he might respond to. (Finding drugs that work for his anxiety and depression has been very difficult as he doesn't seem to respond to any of them.) Since then, silence. For a while, the P would refill his prescriptions even though he wasn't actually seeing him in the office. After a couple of months, he asked H for some insurance info so his nurse could look into the gene testing. Nothing since.

Eventually, his therapist (also at the same clinic) approached P to find out what was going on and P got defensive and blew her off. H wrote to the clinic director explaining his situation and asking for help or advice. The director responded with an apology saying that he'd check on it. No other response after three weeks and another attempt by H to communicate.

Now, H can't get refills anymore on his prescription. Even though he's often complained that he don't thinks the meds do anything for him, he's afraid of them getting out of his system and him having to start over and build them back up. "If this affects my anger and mood and I start flipping out, that's not my fault. I tried." He's also afraid of having to find yet another P (would be his 5th or 6th in 5 years) and start over from scratch with testing drugs.

H now says he wants to stop seeing his T, whom he really likes and trusts, because he doesn't want the clinic to get any of his $$.

Again, it's someone not communicating.

3) He's been searching for a new job for about 7 months now with no luck. Nothing in his salary range, anyway. He knows that his current job will be over at the end of June and, since he's the primary breadwinner, this weighs heavily on him. Doesn't help that I had a new job pretty much fall into my lap, though he seems genuinely happy for me.

In the meantime, anything at work can cause his stress to skyrocket. His current target there is the head of the personnel committee, who just happens to be a long-time friend of my parents. She's been uncommunicative and, according to him, has blamed him for things that aren't his fault.

Add to that anything having to do with SS9, which seems to get him extra worked-up lately.

So, a lot of stress. A lot of drama. I get it. It's got to be hugely frustrating to basically be ghosted by all these people with no explanation. I wish I could make them just respond.

But it feels like every day there's a new crisis. A new thing for him to get worked up over. I'm trying to be understanding and supportive. But with everything happening, my rational mind takes over and I start wondering how much is real and how much is exaggerated in his stressed-out state. It really just all feels like a lot.

I'm relatively detached and try to stay upbeat, providing support and advice where appropriate, empathizing and validating feelings. But with this stuff, there's really not anything I can do but ride out the moods.

A couple of weeks ago he went into a spiral about my lower-paying job (before I got the new job offer) and how I should go get a low-skill job that pays more. That I'm not marketable. All this was in front of SS9. Later, accused me of "not contributing anything" to the household. When he's at baseline, he admits that's wrong and not the case. I don't get triggered by these things anymore and I did a safe word time-out. But hearing it over and over gets tiresome and eats away.

[Ozzie101]

It seems like life is one crisis after another these days.

1) H still hasn't heard anything from his bio family after about 5 months of silence. He's feeling like he wants to write one final letter to them, write them off, un-friend on social media, and move on, hoping that that will give him the sense of closure he doesn't have. His T is advising against that for now but he's really unsure of what to do. It weighs heavily on his mind because he feels like it's the right thing to do but he's not sure a) if closing the door will actually help him get over it or b) he'd regret it after doing it.

2) Once again, he's run into troubles with his psychiatrist. About a year and a half ago, he had one who put him on a drug that caused weight gain (a HUGE no-no to him that he was very clear with the P about) and that led to months-long massive dysregulation. Then, the P dropped communication and it was difficult for him to get in with someone else.

Things with this P started out well. They seemed to hit it off. Then — again, about 5 months ago — the P suggested a gene testing process to see if he might be genetically predisposed to not respond to certain types of drugs and if there are any he might respond to. (Finding drugs that work for his anxiety and depression has been very difficult as he doesn't seem to respond to any of them.) Since then, silence. For a while, the P would refill his prescriptions even though he wasn't actually seeing him in the office. After a couple of months, he asked H for some insurance info so his nurse could look into the gene testing. Nothing since.

Eventually, his therapist (also at the same clinic) approached P to find out what was going on and P got defensive and blew her off. H wrote to the clinic director explaining his situation and asking for help or advice. The director responded with an apology saying that he'd check on it. No other response after three weeks and another attempt by H to communicate.

Now, H can't get refills anymore on his prescription. Even though he's often complained that he don't thinks the meds do anything for him, he's afraid of them getting out of his system and him having to start over and build them back up. "If this affects my anger and mood and I start flipping out, that's not my fault. I tried." He's also afraid of having to find yet another P (would be his 5th or 6th in 5 years) and start over from scratch with testing drugs.

H now says he wants to stop seeing his T, whom he really likes and trusts, because he doesn't want the clinic to get any of his $$.

Again, it's someone not communicating.

3) He's been searching for a new job for about 7 months now with no luck. Nothing in his salary range, anyway. He knows that his current job will be over at the end of June and, since he's the primary breadwinner, this weighs heavily on him. Doesn't help that I had a new job pretty much fall into my lap, though he seems genuinely happy for me.

In the meantime, anything at work can cause his stress to skyrocket. His current target there is the head of the personnel committee, who just happens to be a long-time friend of my parents. She's been uncommunicative and, according to him, has blamed him for things that aren't his fault.

Add to that anything having to do with SS9, which seems to get him extra worked-up lately.

So, a lot of stress. A lot of drama. I get it. It's got to be hugely frustrating to basically be ghosted by all these people with no explanation. I wish I could make them just respond.

But it feels like every day there's a new crisis. A new thing for him to get worked up over. I'm trying to be understanding and supportive. But with everything happening, my rational mind takes over and I start wondering how much is real and how much is exaggerated in his stressed-out state. It really just all feels like a lot.

I'm relatively detached and try to stay upbeat, providing support and advice where appropriate, empathizing and validating feelings. But with this stuff, there's really not anything I can do but ride out the moods.

A couple of weeks ago he went into a spiral about my lower-paying job (before I got the new job offer) and how I should go get a low-skill job that pays more. That I'm not marketable. All this was in front of SS9. Later, accused me of "not contributing anything" to the household. When he's at baseline, he admits that's wrong and not the case. I don't get triggered by these things anymore and I did a safe word time-out. But hearing it over and over gets tiresome and eats away.

[Cat Familiar]

Many of these examples seem to exemplify all or nothing thinking, certainly a common issue with pwBPD.

He wants to send a relationship-ending letter to his bio family.

He wants to end his relationship with his therapist and the clinic where she works because he feels that the psychiatrist there has dissed him.

He blames the personnel head (and probably your parents by extension) for work difficulties.

He’s ultra sensitive to anything regarding his son.

He’s been critical about your earning potential prior to you getting a new, higher paying job.

Yep. Lots of complaints about a variety of things, and it undoubtedly gets tiresome to hear.

There is a common theme in jumping to conclusions and anticipating the worst possible outcome, yet making those outcomes more plausible through getting angry and likely demonstrating poor people skills.

Have you ever wondered why people are repeatedly ghosting him?

My husband has frequently engaged in similar thought patterns. Trying to refute allegations that others are attacking him, targeting him, ignoring him, picking on him—all my efforts have led to the explaining part of JADEing. And have backfired massively, typically with him telling me, “You’re on their side.”

Nowadays, I don’t give his spurious allegations much energy and he tends to not go down those rabbit holes, as he used to. Perhaps it’s an example of his therapy yielding some positive results.

[Ozzie101]

Have you ever wondered why people are repeatedly ghosting him?

Oh, absolutely. I have and do. It just seems odd that all these people should just stop communicating. Now, particularly with the P, some sort of "I can't see you anymore" or "Here's the problem..." would, I think, be appropriate.

I've seen a lot of his communications with people and didn't see anything   . But who knows if there was something else going on?

I disengage as much as possible. The problem comes when it's something that does affect me. Like his job. Nothing I can do about it but, yes, I'm concerned. That's our livelihood. Or if the lack of medication makes his moods even worse. I have to live with the consequences.

So, today was apparently a rotten day at work. The personnel committee (this is a non-profit) told him he has to fire 6 employees. The head of the committee (parents' friend) and he had some negative email exchanges, according to H.

One thing he says she implied was that since he's missing a meeting in a couple of weeks, his job is second priority. Well, to be fair, he's told me many times that his family comes first, job second (if that), that he'll prioritize a trip or SS9's field trip over work. So, it's actually not an unfair allegation. He's missing it because we're taking a trip before I start my new job and, due to job timing, we can't really adjust the dates.

Other than that, I don't know yet exactly what was said, but here's what he texted me:
"I'm sure we will discuss some of this. But, you better put your parents on notice. After all the emails with Friend today, I am done. And they should be too."
When I said I was sorry and that he could fill me in later, he replied:
"No, I don't think I want to discuss it further. I've made my decision. People that are choosing their loyalty elsewhere don't need me in the equation."

Basically? My parents need to drop these friends (after nearly 40 years) and, if they don't, he wants nothing to do with them or anyone else in the family. And if I choose to keep a relationship with my family, then I'm choosing them, too.

He's made this exact threat before when talking about this situation and what could happen. Now it seems to be coming to fruition.

I get why he's upset. It's not that. But I also know my parents. They're going to want more of the story. What did she say? What's the situation? They'll want all details so they can form a reasonable opinion, maybe try to talk to the friends to find out what's going on. I told that to H a couple of months ago and he nearly blew up. "No! You don't go talk to people! You cut them off! That's standing up for the people you care about. This is affecting your livelihood. Your life. They don't even care?" Honestly, I kind of want more of the story too. H isn't always entirely accurate in his interpretations of things, especially when he's triggered.

*Sigh* This will probably be a very rocky night.

[Cat Familiar]

Perhaps he's sanitizing his communications when he knows you can observe. My husband can appear to be the sweetest person on the planet and then, when he's not getting what he wants, he can become very acerbic. I've observed this when he's talking with customer service folks about our phone service or with someone at the propane company.

I hear his tone and I think, "Do you really not understand how you're coming across?" If I was being spoken to in that manner, I certainly wouldn't want to bend over backwards to assist him. If I were to read a transcript of what he said, the acidity wouldn't be apparent in the words, but it certainly comes across in the tone and emphasis.

The problem with anyone, whether it be you or your parents, wanting to hear more about the issue between him and his supervisor, is twofold. One, you get his interpretation of what she said. Secondly, it becomes triangulation.

He's not in any position to demand that others rescind a longstanding relationship, whether or not he knows that. And if he chooses to shun your parents for that, well, that tells you a lot about his character. And if you try and intervene, you run into JADE territory.

[Ozzie101]

Exactly. If he shuns my parents he will lose a great deal of my respect. I'm not planning on getting in the middle of it. There's no "winning" that way. He has to decide for himself and live with the consequences. Part of life. A year ago, I would have been terrified and desperate. Now I feel disappointed and a bit anxious over the uncertainty, but also confident that, whatever happens, I will be ok and will do whatever I feel is right.

All that probably sounds harsh. I'm not unsympathetic. I'm just tired of the drama and I can't in good conscience blindly side with someone -- especially when I have reason to suspect their honesty/version of events.

Just kind of hoping this blows over. He's made plenty of empty threats before, then backs down when he gets back to baseline.

[Cat Familiar]

PwBPD make these threats because they get our attention. We snap to it and try to soothe them, fix things, change circumstances, etc. In other words, they do it because it works.

When we quit responding, they usually will quit doing it, after a while when they realize that their "strategy" is no longer working.

Nothing wrong with deciding not to play a part in his drama. It's his production.

And if he chooses to shun your parents, it's gonna take a lot of work on his part to keep that up.

[SinisterComplex]

PwBPD make these threats because they get our attention. We snap to it and try to soothe them, fix things, change circumstances, etc. In other words, they do it because it works.

When we quit responding, they usually will quit doing it, after a while when they realize that their "strategy" is no longer working.

Nothing wrong with deciding not to play a part in his drama. It's his production.

And if he chooses to shun your parents, it's gonna take a lot of work on his part to keep that up.

For the most part I will agree and say this is correct. However, the little part about usually...there are those who will continue to up the ante and choose the nuclear option if they cannot gain control over you. I will say that in those cases I do believe you are more than likely dealing someone who is comorbid with Narcissism though. It is still an individual case by case situation though.

I do enjoy the point of explaining that it is his production...this is definitely the way to view it...its a movie production or broadway play on a grand stage.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[Ozzie101]

I was right. Last night was rough.

Started out with him talking too much and too fast about SS9's sleepover tonight (his first). H is concerned he's going to get a call to pick SS up. I'd told him earlier that that was going to be a possibility and that probably most kids do that at their first sleepover. Last night, H started going off on how he never wanted to go home from sleepovers because he hated home so much.

Then we got into his situation with his P. He had his T last evening after work. She talked to the clinic director -- he called her, didn't want it in writing. He told her he wasn't going to respond to H. That H was too demanding and high-maintenance and that H was looking for ways or excuses to get the clinic into trouble. T is angry on H's behalf and said she's going to fight them on it. I didn't say it, but I was thinking, "Well, that's actually all correct, really. And H has told me multiple times that he wants to report them to the med board or somehow expose them publicly." Not that he told the director that (as far as I know). But I'm pretty sure he told the P about his family situation and his desires there (to blast them on social media, expose them for awful people).

Started to bring my family into that: "So, what would be the most important to you and your family?" I asked for clarification because I really wasn't sure what he was asking.

That transitioned to his job. Friend has left him out of meetings he should have been a part of. Her emails to him are clipped. He gets no feedback on what he could improve on or things he should be doing. He gets blamed for things that aren't his fault. For instance, he was supposed to give the committee info on employee insurance, which he did. Friend complained it was too late for them to really go over it and make a decision. Yet, he gave it to them as soon as he got the info from the insurance rep. Lots of blame thrown at him for not disclosing things, yet things were disclosed in meetings.

He feels unfairly persecuted and there are many people he works with who agree. My parents' friendship with them makes it all worse. One co-worker (who also knows my parents) was apparently shocked that my parents and I weren't more upset and weren't doing anything about all this.

H insists he's told me all this. But until a couple of weeks ago, his comments were way more vague and were about the committee, not this person in particular. I've told my parents what's going on. H insisted he'd texted and emailed all this to me months ago and offered to show me -- searched for a bit, then put the phone down and changed the subject. I told H I genuinely don't know what to do to help.

Lots of yelling. Did the "I want a divorce" thing. Also pulled the "If I'm out of a job, I'm out. Won't be my problem. That will be yours."

Bottom line, he doesn't feel supported. He feels alone. When I ask questions to try to understand the situation, he feels like he's being second-guessed and accused. That's probably something I should work on. Obviously my communication style isn't working. But I'm a journalist. I'm a question-asker. And so are my parents. We don't jump to action without having a grasp of the situation.

This morning, he told me a lot of it is insecurity. He can't stand questions. I told him I understood that and would work on my delivery. But that a lot of people ask questions. Not because we doubt him. But because we want to understand what's going on.

In a way, I do feel guilty. If he feels unsupported and unbelieved, if he's dealing with all this stuff at work -- being blamed for stuff, treated badly, possibly manipulated into losing his job -- that's probably a failing on my part. A wife should be supportive.

And yet, I'm not the type to be blindly loyal. I like to know what's going on. And if someone's at fault, I may still be on their side, but I'm not going to let that completely slide or go along with black-and-white thinking. Maybe that's a flaw on my part. Maybe I am being a bad wife and unreasonable.

He wants someone to help with his stress. Honestly, a lot of what he says, I think he's looking for a rescuer. I'm refusing to do that. My parents don't know enough about what's going on and also wouldn't do that (they'll help if they can, but...). I genuinely don't know what to do to help. I don't work there. What can I do, really? He doesn't have an answer.

The thing is, I don't fully believe him on things. He tends to be clouded by emotion. He's made some mistakes and handled some things badly with his job -- or has done things that could be easily misinterpreted. Friend told him his job wasn't his top priority and criticized him for it. Well, it isn't. He's made that clear to me. And probably to anyone paying attention. Anyway, he has a track record of not giving a good, full story. See the issue with the P. I've thought it odd they couldn't just send some kind of vague note to send him along, but I can see why they wouldn't want to continue to treat him.

He called me this morning to tell me he's throwing out all the wine in the house. He apparently told his doctor at his physical that he was worried it was becoming a problem -- that he was self-medicating -- and the doctor agreed. Last night, he had two heaping glasses of wine -- always a sign of a bad day and a bad night to come. Of course, he threw it all out before last year when he got scared that I was leaving. So I don't actually have much faith that this will last. He keeps thinking the alcohol will help alleviate his anxiety but it actually just ramps him up. He knows that, but keeps doing it anyway. Anyway, I'm glad he got rid of it and I told him I was proud (and he should be too) that he recognized it himself and took action. But I know from past experience that it will probably come back up.

[Ray2017]

Hi Ozzie, 

I'm so sorry - it seems like it's been an especially difficult few months for you.  So much of what you say is exactly what I see so regularly - our H's are just so similar.  Even the thing about the P ghosting your H, which is a common theme with my H. 

As difficult as your evening sounds, it looks like you've avoided JADE-ing (which is my major weakness).  Is your H like mine and gets more upset if you try to exit a circular conversation or when anger is building (you said there was lots of yelling)?  I've had lots of opportunities to practice in the last few weeks, so I'm really making a concerted effort to exit the circular conversation or one that has lots of anger.  Granted, I have a built in excuse (oh - the kids need something!) many times, but otherwise, I try to listen, and if there's a pause in the ranting, do something like this (based on SET):  I'm so sorry you are so upset about ___________;  it must feel awful to be __________.  Is there something I can physically help you with right now (food; water, etc.)?  If he says no, I silently count to three and walk away and get busy with something else (or go to bed if it's late).  If he's yelling at me, or swearing, I just walk away without explanation given.  These have been met with a variety of things, including a near suicide attempt (it was pure manipulation).  I stayed calm and actually stuck to my boundaries.  I tend to then get the silent treatment for a while after, but the ST has been getting shorter, and I did actually get an apology once.  Are these the right things for you?  I don't know, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.  Our H's do differentiate because my H has never threatened divorce (I think he knows I would agree before he could take it back), which must be so hurtful for you to hear.  I'm sure the other more experienced ones will be chiming in, too. 

[Ozzie101]

Thanks, Ray. Yes, getting out of a conversation is something I've been working on (unsuccessfully). I should have ended this one long before I did. I get caught up in it all. Especially when it's a topic that does concern/worry me, like him losing his job. Detaching and being able to walk away with firmness but love is something I really haven't started yet.

I did manage to avoid JADE for the most part, I think. I stayed calm. I stayed firm on some things. When he started doing the mimicking thing he does when he gets really worked up, I stopped him and said, "If you want to have an adult conversation, I will have one. But if you're going to do that, I'm going to bed. The choice is yours." He dropped it.

He's thrown out the D word many times in the last year and a half. I warned him this morning that that's a threat he needs to stop unless he's really serious and wants it. (He doesn't.) He's big on accusing me of not caring about him and not loving him. Of not standing up for him because I'm afraid of looking bad. None of that's true, of course, but if he feels it... I just feel like if he truly feels that, I must be failing somehow. Either that or it's manipulation. Or both.

[Cat Familiar]

Ozzie,   Your account of that exchange brings back memories. Fortunately these types of “conversations” (and I put that in quotes because they’re not really reciprocal exchanges) no longer happen.

You did really well, giving him the choice to stop the mimicry.  

Still, you’re doubting yourself about whether you’re being supportive enough or a “good wife.” Let’s step back for a moment. You came here over a year ago, in crisis, wondering if your marriage would succeed. Since then, you’ve done therapy, read voluminous material about BPD, participated here, became an Ambassador, helped others in crisis and your relationship has greatly improved. Would you have done any of that if you were uncaring or somehow failing your husband?

As far as questions, I understand that too. I worked as a reporter for a few years and I’m a heatseeking missle when I don’t understand. Most people think that’s a sign of interest in them, but pwBPD, not so much. My husband thinks I’m trying to trip him up or argue with him, when the reality is I just want to know what the heck is going on.

I’ve had to change my strategy with him when I begin to notice signs that he is beginning to dysregulate. There’s a window when he still has the capability of managing his emotions, but if I push on him by asking questions, I can easily push him over the ledge. I’ve become much more mindful of observing his voice tone, facial expression, body tension, skin coloration. Once he begins getting himself worked up, I’ve learned to completely back off, so as not to add fuel to the fire.

Sometimes I’m not fully paying attention and I miss those beginning signs, but even then, I’ve learned to make a speedy U-turn and back away.

When I dealt with my mother’s dementia, I remember a caregiver telling me “No new learning.” That was a mantra I regularly repeated to myself as she became further disabled. With pwBPD, I remind myself “No logical discussion during dysregulation.”

[Ozzie101]

I guess my problem is that I know I care. But I worry that if he's not really feeling or believing that, am I doing something wrong? Am I not really showing it? Or is that a BPD thing or a manipulation? Or is it that his definition of "taking my side" or "loyalty" is just very different from mine? He seems to want a black-and-white, all-or-nothing, no questions asked attack dog. Not me.

It doesn't help that he has other people feeding his negative feelings and need for vengeance. A close friend and sort of mother-figure has kept him worked-up about his bio family, encouraging to lash out at them however possible. "You tell me where they live and I'll take care of them" or "Give me their email and I'll write them and tell them what worthless people they are." Even asked him "Who exactly is telling you not to lash out at them? You tell me who it is." He's told me he knows it's not good, but it's still there.

Or the coworker who asked him what my parents and I thought of how Friend was treating him at work. When he said my parents didn't really know everything and I didn't seem to get it, he said she was shocked and upset and said "Do I need to have a talk with her?" Truth is, he hasn't been as clear as he thinks he has, but that's common with him. He's complained before about someone not "getting it" and, when I've been there, I've been able to see why. He can't translate what he's thinking in a clear, concise way. Mind-reading.

My approach to things is more measured, calm, reasoned and methodical, which I know can really baffle him and drive him nuts. He wants an emotional reaction. He wants me to go to people and chew them out. I won't -- for multiple reasons.

I should have backed off on the questions. I didn't start asking for clarification until he was already well-into dysregulation. He worked himself up there for quite a while before I even uttered a word. I didn't know how else to proceed in the moment. He was asking questions and making demands. "Don't you agree they're awful people?" Or he'll talk for 10 minutes and ask a vague question like "Don't you agree?" I'll ask "About what?" trying to figure out which thing he's referring to. "About what I just said." When I ask for a little more clarification, he throws his hands up or clenches his fist, "Here we go!"

What sorts of things have you said or done to turn it around in situations like that?

I need to remind myself about the logical discussions. I know it, but sometimes forget it in practice -- or don't know how to exit.

Nowadays, we're better able to avoid the full-on meltdowns. But last night, he was in the red zone before he even got around to the big issue.

[Cat Familiar]

When he says that “you don’t care, you’re not on his side, you’re not supportive,” that’s BPD rearing it’s ugly head. It’s a deep hole from a childhood wound that neither you, nor anyone else can fill.

I remember my husband first talking about his lack of “interior,” and I’m using that word because I can’t think of any better way to describe it. It was before I had a functional understanding of BPD and I was completely perplexed by what that meant, and of course I peppered him with questions, effectively shutting down the dialog.

But what that means, I suspect, is that there is nothing solid inside when he questions himself over something he said or did or if people like him. Whereas for me, I’ve got a strong internal dialog and my own “emotional support animal” within. So if I say to myself, “Wow, you really messed that up,” a part of myself will say, “It wasn’t as bad as you think, and you did something good there, but let’s see how you can fix that part that wasn’t so good.” And then I’m off, thinking about strategies to be better or how to repair what I mucked up.

People with BPD apparently don’t have that ability. When they begin self criticism, it turns into “You’re bad. You’re a waste of oxygen. (My ex actually used that expression about himself.) You should never have been born. You’re worthless.”

Can you see that nothing you can say or do could fix those deep seated beliefs?

It may sound really cold, but I don’t participate in those discussions anymore. It’s fine to talk when my husband is being centered and willing to hear my input, but I find that once he starts down the path of “poor me, everyone is conspiring against me,” that my listening to those rants just creates more belief in their validity.

Like what formflier does, you might excuse yourself  to bring him something, say a glass of water, or if more time is needed, making a snack would be a possible strategy.

Think of a time out as a way for his emotions to calm down. I’ve heard that it may take 18 minutes or more for the amygdala to return to a calm state where logic can be utilized.

[Ozzie101]

Yes, I'm sure that's what's going on. And I remind myself that this is a hole I can't fill -- no one can.

He's self-aware enough that when he's centered, he'll talk about how insecure he is and feels. I know that's what's under a lot of it. The problem is, his defense mechanisms create even more problems for him.

I know I can't fix it -- or at least I'm finally getting that.

Like you said, I have my own strength. I do have insecurities of my own, though most of those have either disappeared or improved as I've gotten older. Thing is, I grew up with a loving, supportive family. Dysfunctional in some ways, yes (whose isn't), but fundamentally good. H didn't have that. I have the security in knowing my parents love me no matter what. H doesn't. So, I can mess up or things can go wrong and I can be reasonably sure that it will be OK.

I have gotten away before. A couple of weeks ago I used the safe word and was away for 30 minutes. It worked for me to remain calm and centered, but he basically spent the 30 minutes ruminating and keeping his engine revved up. But I was much calmer and better able to deal with him and it burned out before too long.

Maybe I could try saying something similar to what I did with the mocking: "Do you want to have a real discussion about this? Do you want my input? If not, I'm going to bed."

[Cat Familiar]

I’ve asked at times if he wanted my input about something and was surprised when he said, “No.”     And then my “work” was done.   

[SinisterComplex]

Maybe I could try saying something similar to what I did with the mocking: "Do you want to have a real discussion about this? Do you want my input? If not, I'm going to bed."

I would say this is a good idea actually. Put it into practice. I think you will be more likely to ease your own tension by applying this strategy. However, make sure you do not leave the door open after saying you are going to bed. If there is an inch or crack I think you know quite well how the scenario unfolds.

Cheers and best wishes to you!

-SC-

[Ozzie101]

Keeping the door closed won't solve anything, unfortunately. The one time I did that, he banged on it like he was going to break it down. My best hope is that he'd accept my decision and just sit downstairs and stew for a while.

I wonder if letting him know during a calm time what I plan to do going forward would be wise or not.

I’ve asked at times if he wanted my input about something and was surprised when he said, “No.”   And then my “work” was done.

Sounds heavenly!

[SinisterComplex]

Keeping the door closed won't solve anything, unfortunately. The one time I did that, he banged on it like he was going to break it down. My best hope is that he'd accept my decision and just sit downstairs and stew for a while.

I wonder if letting him know during a calm time what I plan to do going forward would be wise or not.

Sounds heavenly!

LOL. Ok you took that at face value. My intent was not actually keeping a real physical door closed. Ha. What I meant was that when you are going to bed that the decision is final and your boundary is set if he doesn't want to communicate. Sorry. Although looking at our dialogue at least it is entertaining to know I could have explained myself better perhaps. I didn't expect to hear about a literal physical door in response. :-D

Cheers!

-SC-

[Ozzie101]

Ha! I wondered if you were being literal or metaphorical and decided to just respond to literal. But, you're right -- doing it firmly with boundaries is the way to go!