Taking Ownership of My Feelings

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I am not really sure how to pose what is on my mind. My question stems from two separate things and both of them have to do with owning my feelings and taking responsibility for them without dismissing them or trying to blame them on somebody else.

The first thing that got me to thinking about this is Crumbling thread about being stuck in neutral. I said something about my feelings and my situation being crap. I continually dismiss my struggles as being crap or invalid. Not sure what to do with this. It is another level of awareness about how I have treated myself.

The other thing that got me to thinking about this is a conversation that I was having with somebody about how my husband makes me feel rejected, worthless, etc. The response that I got was, "Your husband can't make you feel anything. Stop blaming him for your feelings." That got me to thinking. I am not sure how to break that down. I am stuck on thinking: "I feel horrible about myself because the person that I married and chose as a life partner has continually rejected me and does not act like he wants to do the work to keep me around." I feel like I am not enough as a result of his actions. I am reminded of the quote, "Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission." I get that but I also wonder how I am supposed to react to continual rejection. How am I supposed to feel when the person that I have chosen to spend my life with doesn't reciprocate and doesn't act like he wants to be with me? I feel like I am getting everything all wrong because I feel like my feelings are a reaction to things that are happening in my environment.

Does anybody have any insights or words of wisdom to help me try to make sense of this?

[vortex of confusion]

I am not really sure how to pose what is on my mind. My question stems from two separate things and both of them have to do with owning my feelings and taking responsibility for them without dismissing them or trying to blame them on somebody else.

The first thing that got me to thinking about this is Crumbling thread about being stuck in neutral. I said something about my feelings and my situation being crap. I continually dismiss my struggles as being crap or invalid. Not sure what to do with this. It is another level of awareness about how I have treated myself.

The other thing that got me to thinking about this is a conversation that I was having with somebody about how my husband makes me feel rejected, worthless, etc. The response that I got was, "Your husband can't make you feel anything. Stop blaming him for your feelings." That got me to thinking. I am not sure how to break that down. I am stuck on thinking: "I feel horrible about myself because the person that I married and chose as a life partner has continually rejected me and does not act like he wants to do the work to keep me around." I feel like I am not enough as a result of his actions. I am reminded of the quote, "Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission." I get that but I also wonder how I am supposed to react to continual rejection. How am I supposed to feel when the person that I have chosen to spend my life with doesn't reciprocate and doesn't act like he wants to be with me? I feel like I am getting everything all wrong because I feel like my feelings are a reaction to things that are happening in my environment.

Does anybody have any insights or words of wisdom to help me try to make sense of this?

[Pingo]

Hi vortex, I don't think I have much wisdom to share but something I read recently popped in my head.  I read that we should not expect our SO to fulfill more than 25% of our needs.  I thought this interesting.  Because I know I had ALL of my needs and much of my self-worth wrapped up in my r/s with my ex.  If he was happy I was happy (on the surface).  When he was upset I was upset.  Looking back, what could I have changed to not rely on him so much for my own needs?  Spend more time with my friends, get back to hobbies that I used to enjoy, pursue my own interests, etc.  But I was in such a depression over the abuse and dysfunction in my r/s that these things seemed impossible.  And it was all-consuming bc I knew I needed to get out of it.  Your friend is right, others can't make us 'feel' anything, our reactions are our responsibility.  I tell my son this a lot.  But living this is something else!  We are human after all!  And it is very difficult, perhaps impossible, to not be affected by our partners or people we are so emotionally connected with, especially if that person is continually rejecting us.

For myself, I think I continuously questioned my own feelings as a way to stall taking care of myself.  If I had stopped the self-doubt and listened to my feelings and gut, I would have to leave and that was a terrifying prospect.  Putting my feelings down and invalidating them was a way to protect myself (a dysfunctional defense mechanism) from the truth. 

[Pou]

Vortex, your struggle in a PD relationship is not crap and worthless, say… if you have good reason to believe that there is light at the end of tunnel and you are doing what you can to help both of you reaching there.  It is only crap and worthless if you have no reason to stay in this relationship... like you don't see a way for it to turn around and both of you have no children together and etc.  You can only classified your struggle in a PD relationship as worthless if you simply can not find value in your struggle.  

I disagree with your friends who said that your spouse can not make you feel worthless and bad.  Even in a normal relationship, that happens.  Your spouse has significant influence in your life and he better have that influence, otherwise, you can probably be with any guy walks off the street.  When people got married or and decide to be partners, we put trust in the person who we with that s/he will care for us and look out for our best interest.  We trust them and their words have more value then almost everyone else that we know.  Unlike parents and siblings, we "choose" to be with this person and we "opt" to trust this person with our life … unfortunately, in a PD relationship, PDs betray this trust and they turn a normal relationship upside down.  In a way, it is about manipulation and control for them … I think PDs are so afraid of a normal and loving relationship and they when you display such characteristics, they devalue you because they are afraid to engage and connect.  I notice this after years of struggle and learned that I ought to give up intimacy with my NPDw, because it will lead to more drama and flat devaluation from her.  Obviously, a relationship like ours won't last, but my struggle has value.  I have 3 kids and they are young.  I see it as I am a pilot on an airplane that engine caught on fire, I have to land it carefully to make sure all passengers on board are safe.  As a person with empathy, I also wish to land it with my NPDw safely… I am looking for an answer where eventually we will be able to part as civilized as possible.  It maybe an impossibility, but that gives me meaning in my continuing struggle.  The more I learned about PDs, the more I came to the conclusion that their brains are wired young in a certain way that their reward system is all screw up.  I observed my NPDw and notice that she doesn't honor the reward system with our kids and with me (of course)… I notice that she will change her reward conditions and does't care to honor them… I see it often left my kids frustrated and confused.  I had discussion with my NPDw about this and I notice that she doesn't see this as an issue.  I realize that this must be a common theme when she was growing up … and from my interaction with her mother, I notice there is a lack acknowledgement on contributions and there are often times over inflated praises for something that really doesn't deserve any praise, and vice versa.  I came to understand that over inflated praises from PDs is a way of "controlling" an unknowing individual… injecting the "charm" if you will to seduce him or her.  So now when undeserved praises flying my way these days, I tense up and put up a poker face and say thank you to stop any more of these games.  

Only you know why you are in it for your struggle… no one else can put a value to your struggle.  But you must be clear to yourself that why you putting up with it.  Perhaps, you still see hope for things to turn around… how absurd that it may be… you need to define your milestones… to make sure you are not wasting yourself any time to turn around Titanic.  Ultimately, this is your life and you will have to run it the way you see fit.  But once again, I think that as long as you are in a relationship with a partner, the things he say will no doubt affect your self worth... it is inevitable... and that is why people have to be separated when things get really really toxic.  

Good luck to your journey.  It is not easy but hopefully we will all be a better person at the end.

[Blimblam]

The idea of what other people do and say doesn't hurt me is only valid if you either are using narcissistic defenses or are trully very centered in yourself. Therapists have the concept of countertransference to describe how listening to a patient evokes feeling and emotions in the therapist.  Now imagine a intimate relationship with a pwBPD! 

It's what happened people that don't want to understand won't understand and accepting that is a big step, in fact it's the step I've been working on for quite a while. It's nothing personal either it's just a threat to the narrative to their story. This is your story though. 

[vortex of confusion]

Thank you so much for the thoughts and insights. I think I want to address a couple of different things.

Pingo said:

I read that we should not expect our SO to fulfill more than 25% of our needs.  I thought this interesting.  Because I know I had ALL of my needs and much of my self-worth wrapped up in my r/s with my ex.  If he was happy I was happy (on the surface).  When he was upset I was upset.  Looking back, what could I have changed to not rely on him so much for my own needs?

I have been thinking about this. I don't think that my needs were tied up with my husband. I don't feel like I have asked him for much during our relationship. My needs from him are the needs that I think are supposed to be part of a healthy relationship. I want a companion, a partner, somebody that finds me sexually attractive, somebody that puts some effort into the relationship without acting like it is a major chore. I have always been a pretty independent person, a loner if you will.

If he was happy, I was happy. If he was upset, I was upset. Usually, that wasn't about my needs. It was about sharing the joys and sorrows of my partner. Isn't it normal to want to share with a partner/friend/etc.? I think that is where the lines sometimes get blurred. If my husband comes home happy about something, I am going to want to hear about it and share in his happiness. Likewise, if something upsets him, I am going to want to hear about it, validate it, and share in his sorrow. It isn't just with my husband. If a friend shares good news with me, I am going to revel in it and be happy for them. Same with bad news. For me, it breaks down when that desire isn't shared by the partner/friend/parent/etc. Yes, I can share my joys and sorrows with other people but it isn't the same. I got married because I want a friggin' life partner. I sometimes feel like normal relationship behaviors are being pathologized at times. Trying to sort out what is normal and what isn't is part of what trips me up at times.

Pou, I can't thank you enough for your perspective. You have brought up some things that I hadn't really thought about in that way. You said:

Vortex, your struggle in a PD relationship is not crap and worthless, say… if you have good reason to believe that there is light at the end of tunnel and you are doing what you can to help both of you reaching there.  It is only crap and worthless if you have no reason to stay in this relationship... like you don't see a way for it to turn around and both of you have no children together and etc.  You can only classified your struggle in a PD relationship as worthless if you simply can not find value in your struggle. 

I have four young kids with my spouse. All of the value that I find in my struggles have to do with my trying to give my children the best life possible. My gut tells me that there isn't much left for my husband and I to salvage. Underneath everything, that feeling is there. I am trying to fight those feelings because I think the best thing for my kids is for them to grow up in a home with two parents that love and care for each other. I am not quite ready to throw in the towel and say "It is done." I am almost there but I don't know how to deal with those feelings of being absolutely, completely done. Does that mean divorce? Is there a way to stay together for the kids yet still be nice to one another?

This:

I see it as I am a pilot on an airplane that engine caught on fire, I have to land it carefully to make sure all passengers on board are safe.  As a person with empathy, I also wish to land it with my NPDw safely… I am looking for an answer where eventually we will be able to part as civilized as possible.  It maybe an impossibility, but that gives me meaning in my continuing struggle.

This sums up my struggle so well. I love the analogy of carefully landing a plane with all passengers safe. That is my goal exactly. To reach that goal, I am trying to be as thorough as possible. I am struggling with trying to find a way to work through my feelings while doing as little damage to my passengers as possible. Until finding this site, a lot of keeping everyone else safe involved me denying my own feelings and dismissing my own struggles.

But once again, I think that as long as you are in a relationship with a partner, the things he say will no doubt affect your self worth... it is inevitable... and that is why people have to be separated when things get really really toxic. 

Thank you so much for this. I find it very validating and it helps me to maintain a little bit of clarity. I am not crazy for letting some of the stuff he says and does get to me. I have managed to be really strong for a really long time. I feel like I am on the brink of completely breaking down at times.

Blimblam:

Thank you for that. I have had a lot of discussions with different people about how one should react/feel when somebody says something hurtful or mean. I am going to have to look up countertransference. I am a very empathetic person and I tend to be pretty sensitive to other people's energy. I know, that sounds a bit new agey but it is something that I am aware of about myself.

It's nothing personal either it's just a threat to the narrative to their story. This is your story though.

Hmmm, I am wondering if my dismissal of my own feelings is my attempt to control my story. I don't think I am quite ready to face the full reality of the situation that I am in. If I can change myself or my feelings or something else, then I can continue to live the narrative that I have in my head. I so badly want to be successful in my relationship with my husband but that narrative isn't working for me so I am having to come to terms with the fact that the only way to be successful in the relationship is to have very few needs and simply go back to taking whatever bread crumbs I can get.

[billypilgrim]

I get that but I also wonder how I am supposed to react to continual rejection. How am I supposed to feel when the person that I have chosen to spend my life with doesn't reciprocate and doesn't act like he wants to be with me? I feel like I am getting everything all wrong because I feel like my feelings are a reaction to things that are happening in my environment.

Does anybody have any insights or words of wisdom to help me try to make sense of this?

Hi Vortex,

I read your thread when you first posted it but I've held off on responding because I don't really know what to say.  I've struggled and continue to struggle with the same feelings.  The worthlessness, the guilt, the abandonment.  It's awful but the one thing that sticks out to me about your post is that it sounds like you have not fully accepted that your partner is ill (this is not easy, I still have days in which I struggle).  Your partner isn't like you.  He doesn't think or feel the way that you feel so therefore your way of thinking about the r/s isn't going to click with you, or anyone else for that matter.  

I went back and reread your first post and I saw a ton of similarities, so if you are doubting his illness, just remember why you sought out this site.  While reading your post, I couldn't help but envision us both trying desperately to make that triangle fit into that square hole.  No matter what we did or how hard we tried, we weren't going to make it fit.  Your line about thinking that you may have a PD really struck me as well.  I too often thought, what if it's me?  That's how severe the gaslighting can go, we start doubting ourselves and we think that we are the ones with the problem.  But you are a veteran here, you know all of this stuff but to me, it sounds like you needed to hear it again.  You know all of this, you just need to start believing it.   You can't control or fix a PD, no matter the love, effort, or work you put into it.  And that's very hard to wrap your head around but most importantly, it's very hard to believe.

And finally, your struggles are not crap.  Your struggles are very real and very painful.  Not having a reciprocating r/s hurts and you don't need to feel belittled or small or wrong for feeling that way.  I'm sorry you feel stuck.  I wish I had something more profound to say.

[vortex of confusion]

I read your thread when you first posted it but I've held off on responding because I don't really know what to say.  I've struggled and continue to struggle with the same feelings.  The worthlessness, the guilt, the abandonment.  It's awful but the one thing that sticks out to me about your post is that it sounds like you have not fully accepted that your partner is ill (this is not easy, I still have days in which I struggle).  Your partner isn't like you.  He doesn't think or feel the way that you feel so therefore your way of thinking about the r/s isn't going to click with you, or anyone else for that matter.  

Thank  you billypilgrim! I think you are correct. For some reason, I have these periods of time where I go back to being in denial. I think this bout is a result of him being home for so long over the holidays. When I am around him all the time, everything seems so normal. How can he possibly be ill? Here lately, we have had discussions that feel rather sane. And when they have gotten too far off track, I have done a better job of stopping them. For some reason, the notion that he is ill just isn't sinking in.

I went back and reread your first post and I saw a ton of similarities, so if you are doubting his illness, just remember why you sought out this site.  While reading your post, I couldn't help but envision us both trying desperately to make that triangle fit into that square hole.  No matter what we did or how hard we tried, we weren't going to make it fit.  Your line about thinking that you may have a PD really struck me as well.  I too often thought, what if it's me?  That's how severe the gaslighting can go, we start doubting ourselves and we think that we are the ones with the problem.  But you are a veteran here, you know all of this stuff but to me, it sounds like you needed to hear it again.  You know all of this, you just need to start believing it.   You can't control or fix a PD, no matter the love, effort, or work you put into it.  And that's very hard to wrap your head around but most importantly, it's very hard to believe.

I wouldn't consider myself a veteran. I am more of a frequent poster. If I say it enough times or talk about it enough, maybe it will eventually sink in. I need to hear it as often as possible especially since I am coming off of two weeks of him being off work and at home with me and the kids day in and day out. The only way I can be around him for that length of time is to backslide into denial/shutting down. Two steps forward, three steps back.

And finally, your struggles are not crap.  Your struggles are very real and very painful.  Not having a reciprocating r/s hurts and you don't need to feel belittled or small or wrong for feeling that way.  I'm sorry you feel stuck.  I wish I had something more profound to say.

Things don't need to be profound to make a difference. Your response has been very helpful. It shows me that I still haven't fully accepted the reality of the situation. It shows me that I am still in the midst of that vortex of confusion. I am trying to get out of it but it feels so hopeless and pointless at times. I am almost 40 and this is NOT where I wanted to be with my life.

[Grey Kitty]

I saw more judgements than feelings in here.

I am stuck on thinking: "I feel horrible about myself because the person that I married and chose as a life partner has continually rejected me and does not act like he wants to do the work to keep me around." I feel like I am not enough as a result of his actions.

How am I supposed to feel when the person that I have chosen to spend my life with doesn't reciprocate and doesn't act like he wants to be with me? I feel like I am getting everything all wrong because I feel like my feelings are a reaction to things that are happening in my environment.

"I am not enough" is a judgement.

You didn't say it explicitly, but "I did something wrong by choosing this person as a husband" is another judgement.

For that matter, "I'm getting everything wrong because my feelings are a reaction to my environment" is another one.

How are you supposed to feel about the way your husband treats you? It is a rhetorical question, but I'll answer it anyway... .you are supposed to feel exactly what you do feel when you are treated that way.

Given the descriptions I'd expect you to feel hurt, angry, ashamed, frustrated, or confused. Not to mention some profound disappointment or discouragement. However that part is a guess. Your feelings are yours. Perhaps you are too numb to feel anything today.

One of the tricky things about feelings is that since many of them are unpleasant, we find ways to move on from the experience of feeling them quickly, often before we even notice we've done it. Try to stay with the direct feelings if you can. Judgements or blame are one way to avoid paying direct attention to them.

[vortex of confusion]

I saw more judgements than feelings in here.

A feeling can be judgemental and still be a feeling.

"I am not enough" is a judgement.

How is "I feel like I am not enough" a judgement? "I am not enough" leaves off the "I feel" part but it is still a feeling. I can say or feel like I am not enough without believing that it is an irrefutable fact. Me saying something does not make it true. I can sit here and tell myself that I am enough all day long. That doesn't change the fact that I sometimes feel like I am not enough.

You didn't say it explicitly, but "I did something wrong by choosing this person as a husband" is another judgement.

For that matter, "I'm getting everything wrong because my feelings are a reaction to my environment" is another one.

Why is it so important to distinguish whether or not it is a feeling or a judgment? If I think or feel that I made the wrong choice of husbands, is that a bad thing? Is it necessary or helpful for me to distinguish it a judgment?

How are you supposed to feel about the way your husband treats you? It is a rhetorical question, but I'll answer it anyway... .you are supposed to feel exactly what you do feel when you are treated that way.

I feel worthless, I feel like I made a bad choice, etc. However, when I read what you wrote about those things being judgments, I find myself scratching my head because, to me, they are feelings. I know that I am not worthless. I know that my husband is a good person, he just doesn't do well in intimate relationships. I am objective enough to know that I could not predict the future. The choice that I made when I made seemed like a good choice. That happens to people all of the time.

Given the descriptions I'd expect you to feel hurt, angry, ashamed, frustrated, or confused. Not to mention some profound disappointment or discouragement. However that part is a guess. Your feelings are yours. Perhaps you are too numb to feel anything today.

I don't think I am too numb to feel anything. The anger, frustration, and disappointment are very much there. The overarching feeling is one of sadness because I can't figure out how to deal with my feelings and I can't figure out how to find a way to land the plan right now. (Thanks again for that analogy Pou!)

In all honesty, your post comes across as very invalidating to me. First, you tell me that my feelings are not feelings but are judgments. Now, I feel like this statement of how you expect me to feel is being presumptive as though I don't know what I am feeling or that I am too numb to feel anything. I have lots of different feelings. Some are more fleeting while others are there under the surface, nagging to be acknowledged and owned.

One of the tricky things about feelings is that since many of them are unpleasant, we find ways to move on from the experience of feeling them quickly, often before we even notice we've done it. Try to stay with the direct feelings if you can. Judgements or blame are one way to avoid paying direct attention to them.

I do not understand this line of reasoning. To me, the judgments and blame can be feelings, especially if a person objectively/intellectually knows that the judgments and blame are a result of feelings rather than facts. I can feel like everything is my husband's fault while knowing full well that it isn't all his fault. I know that I wasn't good at setting and keeping boundaries. I know that I am not doing enough to make more progress. I know that I am stuck on a few things. Part of what makes it difficult for me to acknowledge and own my feelings is the tendency to overanalyze them and categorize them. I want to be able to make a statement that is grounded in how I feel and not sit there and second guess it or talk myself out of it because it isn't really a feeling but is something else, like a judgment.

[Trog]

I heard something I really liked the other day... 'you don't get to tell other people how to love you, but you do get to choose whether or not to participate in the way they love'.

I think we're all really mad that the way they choose to love didn't match our expectations. It was a disappointment, it was disordered, no past experience, movie, parents (for most of us) showed us this could even happen, so we didn't recognise it and pressed on with the good bits we did understand.

If that's what your friend means by they can't 'make' (read:force) us to feel anything, we had to have a buy in. Our wants/desires were not met and that hurt, even when we explained it till we were blue in the face, they didn't act how we wanted and by not doing that it 'made' is unhappy. We should have chosen to leave at that point. We didn't use our power.

[hergestridge]

It is a good idea not to rely on your partner for happiness. I think the 25% is a good idea.

Also, taking responsibility for keeping yourself happy is a very good thing.

What made this impossible within the relationship I had with my BPW wife was that she would rely on me 100% and keep me responsible for not being happy. So when I did things on my own in order to be happy I felt that I neglected her and made her unhappy, or that I made myself happy at her expense.

[Pou]

Pou, I can't thank you enough for your perspective. You have brought up some things that I hadn't really thought about in that way. You said:

Vortex, your struggle in a PD relationship is not crap and worthless, say… if you have good reason to believe that there is light at the end of tunnel and you are doing what you can to help both of you reaching there.  It is only crap and worthless if you have no reason to stay in this relationship... like you don't see a way for it to turn around and both of you have no children together and etc.  You can only classified your struggle in a PD relationship as worthless if you simply can not find value in your struggle. 

I have four young kids with my spouse. All of the value that I find in my struggles have to do with my trying to give my children the best life possible. My gut tells me that there isn't much left for my husband and I to salvage. Underneath everything, that feeling is there. I am trying to fight those feelings because I think the best thing for my kids is for them to grow up in a home with two parents that love and care for each other. I am not quite ready to throw in the towel and say "It is done." I am almost there but I don't know how to deal with those feelings of being absolutely, completely done. Does that mean divorce? Is there a way to stay together for the kids yet still be nice to one another?

This:

I see it as I am a pilot on an airplane that engine caught on fire, I have to land it carefully to make sure all passengers on board are safe.  As a person with empathy, I also wish to land it with my NPDw safely… I am looking for an answer where eventually we will be able to part as civilized as possible.  It maybe an impossibility, but that gives me meaning in my continuing struggle.

This sums up my struggle so well. I love the analogy of carefully landing a plane with all passengers safe. That is my goal exactly. To reach that goal, I am trying to be as thorough as possible. I am struggling with trying to find a way to work through my feelings while doing as little damage to my passengers as possible. Until finding this site, a lot of keeping everyone else safe involved me denying my own feelings and dismissing my own struggles.

But once again, I think that as long as you are in a relationship with a partner, the things he say will no doubt affect your self worth... it is inevitable... and that is why people have to be separated when things get really really toxic. 

Thank you so much for this. I find it very validating and it helps me to maintain a little bit of clarity. I am not crazy for letting some of the stuff he says and does get to me. I have managed to be really strong for a really long time. I feel like I am on the brink of completely breaking down at times.

Vortex, your struggle is filled with meanings… with 4 kids, you will need to proceed everyday with prudence, as you already have.  I have 3 kids and I ask myself the same question everyday, WTF I am doing in a situation like this … well, I made the choice from the beginning and now I have 3 wonderful little human beings here.  I got to do my best to navigate and think in terms of their best interest.  I am a mature and grown adult, I have much higher pain threshold than my kids and I will take as many "punches" as possible just so their little lives are not jolted by their parents' dysfunctional relationship.  I do not want them to grow up to have a dysfunctional relationship so at some point, I will have to have a talk when they are ready about what they ought to expect from a respectful and loving relationship.  I also am not afraid to tell my kids when I made a mistake and emphasize everyone is a human and we all make mistakes, the most important thing is what do we learn from them and not to make them again.  So my struggle has lots of meaning and there are moments that I wish I don't have to struggle like this everyday.  But when I see my 3 little ones, I know it is all good at the end of the day.  I hope you get the same comfort when you see your little ones.  If your partner is a PD, especially a NPD, any divorce proceedings can get extremely messy and irrational.  You ought to read up on it just in case you are cornered to a place where you don't have any choice but to do just that.  There are very good books out there, but keep in mind, good book will keep you educated, but the reality of going through divorce with a NPD will be very draining, financially and mentally.  Best wishes.

[livednlearned]

I feel worthless, I feel like I made a bad choice, etc. However, when I read what you wrote about those things being judgments, I find myself scratching my head because, to me, they are feelings. I know that I am not worthless.

This is the core of the issue, at least it was for me. I simultaneously experienced these two conditions toward the end of my relationship. It was the source of so much turmoil, trying to figure out which one it was: worthy or not worthy.

It's as though there are two "selves" inside, like a battle between the two.

I continually dismiss my struggles as being crap or invalid. Not sure what to do with this. It is another level of awareness about how I have treated myself.

I found in my own healing process that treating myself as worthy, as though I mattered, and that I was lovable -- was actually a severely painful experience, more so than the abuse I experienced with my ex husband. It was a slow process, tiny baby steps, one at a time, not entirely linear, and not entirely conscious, to get to the point where one day, almost by surprise, I felt lovable. Most genuinely raw painful moment I've felt, which is not at all what you might imagine! And for weeks after this moment, I felt so disoriented that I ended up going to see a psychiatrist of the old-school kind to ask him if I was having a nervous breakdown. He said it was a breakthrough, not a breakdown. He said that we develop egos in childhood to help us develop into adults, and sometimes those egos become extremely defensive to painful feelings, and not experiencing our most painful feelings keeps us emotionally stunted and fearful. Those egos, which were so important when we were developing our selfhood, become terribly limiting as we grow into adults. They don't want us to experience the deep raw pain of our worthiness in case we don't make it. 

One thing he also said is that I had slowly and meticulously created the conditions where this was safe and possible. You can't rush it, apparently.

The other thing that got me to thinking about this is a conversation that I was having with somebody about how my husband makes me feel rejected, worthless, etc. The response that I got was, "Your husband can't make you feel anything. Stop blaming him for your feelings."

This seems a little two-dimensional, although I think I understand what your friend is trying to say. It doesn't feel good when someone tries to cheapen us, or make us feel unworthy, and who does not feel pain when our intimate partners devalue or demean us? I guess the twist is that it's up to you or any of us, to agree with it or not. And sometimes it will take time to work through whether we agree. For me, I finally feel so much love and compassion for me, imperfect and flawed as I am. So when someone is mean to me, I feel sad, and then it might take a while to work through it. Is it because they are in pain? Are they acting out of a place of fear? Did I do something to hurt them? Do I need to look at my own actions?

It seems like part of you, maybe your healthy authentic self, is reaching for something that you haven't experienced before, and you aren't sure where it's going to lead, but the fact you're feeling conflicted seems to me a great sign. The conflict, at least as I experienced it, was so critically important. I started to seriously doubt what my ex was saying about me, and it took a lot of strength to think that. I had never had a healthy emotional inner life, and yet there was something in me that seemed to sense there was more out there, that I could experience it, despite having such a negative script in my head telling me otherwise.

I hope that makes sense.

[vortex of confusion]

I heard something I really liked the other day... 'you don't get to tell other people how to love you, but you do get to choose whether or not to participate in the way they love'.

I think we're all really mad that the way they choose to love didn't match our expectations. It was a disappointment, it was disordered, no past experience, movie, parents (for most of us) showed us this could even happen, so we didn't recognise it and pressed on with the good bits we did understand.

If that's what your friend means by they can't 'make' (read:force) us to feel anything, we had to have a buy in. Our wants/desires were not met and that hurt, even when we explained it till we were blue in the face, they didn't act how we wanted and by not doing that it 'made' is unhappy. We should have chosen to leave at that point. We didn't use our power.

That is a really good point Trog!

The movies, etc. don't prepare one for this sort of stuff. It is so romanticized and sends the message that it is possible to love somebody enough to love it out of them. Not sure if that makes sense but way too many movies have a happily ever after. Not only that, but a lot of the movies, etc. focus on the really blatant stuff. In my case, things were so subtle and built up slowly over time so I didn't really put it all together. And, I keep seeing people talk about red flags. They are only red in hindsight because, in my opinion, relationships have problems. People are not perfect. I can think of all sorts of things that I have done over the years that could easily be seen as red flags.

I bolded the part about not choosing to leave and not using our power. In all honesty, I felt like leaving would be the easy way out. Staying it out felt more powerful at that time. I felt like not leaving would be giving up. All relationships have problems and hiccups. I don't care if you are talking about romantic, friendships, parent/child, coworker, etc. All relationships and interactions with other leave open the possibility for miscommunications and possible problems. I tend to see the good in people and I know that there are times that I give people more credit than is warranted. Is that a flaw or an asset? I don't know.

[vortex of confusion]

It is a good idea not to rely on your partner for happiness. I think the 25% is a good idea.

Also, taking responsibility for keeping yourself happy is a very good thing.

What made this impossible within the relationship I had with my BPW wife was that she would rely on me 100% and keep me responsible for not being happy. So when I did things on my own in order to be happy I felt that I neglected her and made her unhappy, or that I made myself happy at her expense.

THIS!

I have been thinking a lot about whether or not I have been relying on my partner for my happiness. I haven't relied on him for much. I feel like I am pretty good about finding ways to make myself happy. I have a knack for being able to make the most ordinary and mundane things into something extraordinary and fun. I don't want to toot my own horn but my kids are continually amazed at some of the stuff that I do. The other day, the younger two girls got into a funny little argument over whether or not I was a magical unicorn ninja or a magical hamster ninja. I can make pretty much anything fun IF I don't have somebody in the background criticizing, putting up road blocks, or generally being negative.

Like you say, I feel like my husband relies on me for everything. I have story after story of the things that I have done to make him happy. I have story after story of the times when he has clung to me. Things have gotten a lot better but there was one point where he would get jealous of the kids and him and the kids would fight over my time. If the kids and I want to do stuff without him, he gets really butt hurt. There has been some improvement in that the kids will at least tell me that they want to go without dad. He sometimes reminds me of Debbie Downer from Saturday night live. LOL.

And if I am happy, it seems that he will come up with something that will dampen things. I have a pretty high tolerance but after a while it starts to wear a person down.

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex, your struggle is filled with meanings… with 4 kids, you will need to proceed everyday with prudence, as you already have.  I have 3 kids and I ask myself the same question everyday, WTF I am doing in a situation like this … well, I made the choice from the beginning and now I have 3 wonderful little human beings here.  I got to do my best to navigate and think in terms of their best interest.  I am a mature and grown adult, I have much higher pain threshold than my kids and I will take as many "punches" as possible just so their little lives are not jolted by their parents' dysfunctional relationship.  I do not want them to grow up to have a dysfunctional relationship so at some point, I will have to have a talk when they are ready about what they ought to expect from a respectful and loving relationship.  I also am not afraid to tell my kids when I made a mistake and emphasize everyone is a human and we all make mistakes, the most important thing is what do we learn from them and not to make them again.  So my struggle has lots of meaning and there are moments that I wish I don't have to struggle like this everyday.  But when I see my 3 little ones, I know it is all good at the end of the day.  I hope you get the same comfort when you see your little ones.  If your partner is a PD, especially a NPD, any divorce proceedings can get extremely messy and irrational.  You ought to read up on it just in case you are cornered to a place where you don't have any choice but to do just that.  There are very good books out there, but keep in mind, good book will keep you educated, but the reality of going through divorce with a NPD will be very draining, financially and mentally.  Best wishes.

I could hug you for this reminder Pou! 

You are so very right. I know that what I am doing is very meaningful and I know that I am making some progress. My kids are opening up more. Things are becoming more peaceful. My kids are starting to relate to their dad a little better. Yes, it is a struggle and there are days when I want to run away screaming. The hard part is letting myself think and feel things honestly while NOT letting those thoughts and feelings interfere with my quest to do what is best for my kids. Leaving my husband might be best for me but I don't think it has reached a point where I think leaving is what is best for the kids. It might get to that point. I don't know. But in the mean time, I am going to struggle and try to be as prudent and balanced as possible even if that means coming here to spew all of the craziness that goes through my head. Having an outlet helps. Most of the things that I say and post here are things that I keep to myself.

[vortex of confusion]

I found in my own healing process that treating myself as worthy, as though I mattered, and that I was lovable -- was actually a severely painful experience, more so than the abuse I experienced with my ex husband. It was a slow process, tiny baby steps, one at a time, not entirely linear, and not entirely conscious, to get to the point where one day, almost by surprise, I felt lovable. Most genuinely raw painful moment I've felt, which is not at all what you might imagine! And for weeks after this moment, I felt so disoriented that I ended up going to see a psychiatrist of the old-school kind to ask him if I was having a nervous breakdown. He said it was a breakthrough, not a breakdown. He said that we develop egos in childhood to help us develop into adults, and sometimes those egos become extremely defensive to painful feelings, and not experiencing our most painful feelings keeps us emotionally stunted and fearful. Those egos, which were so important when we were developing our selfhood, become terribly limiting as we grow into adults. They don't want us to experience the deep raw pain of our worthiness in case we don't make it. 

This was all really good livednlearned! I am only quoting the above because I think this is really, really helpful for me. I do have those moments of really raw, painful moments where everything seems disorienting. Perhaps it is a breakthrough even though there are times when it feels more like a break down. Thanks again for this!

It also occurred to me that if I admit how truly capable and awesome I am, then I will feel like I have to do more and that will be hard. Hmmm. . .

[livednlearned]

It also occurred to me that if I admit how truly capable and awesome I am, then I will feel like I have to do more and that will be hard. Hmmm. . .

There is a world of difference between capable/awesome and worthy/lovable.

My experience, the thing I went through, was not at all about being good at something, it wasn't even about being good at being myself. It was about feeling whole.

And the disorienting feelings I experienced were complex, a bit difficult to describe. After my moment, which was basically being in a position where I had to accept kindness from someone who cares about me, I kept weeping, and I'm not really someone does that. I would weep while out walking my dog, while driving my car, just this constant low-level crying. And it wasn't the kind of crying where I felt sad, exactly. More like gratitude, but imagine gratitude causing pain. Which sounds so strange, but that's the only way I can describe it.

I read in Daring Greatly, the book about vulnerability that Brene Brown wrote, that joy is one of the most vulnerable feelings we experience. I think the disorienting feeling I was having was about transitioning from an entirely egoic experience of self to something much more whole, and feeling joy is part of that. If you have never genuinely loved yourself, it can be very painful to make the transition into being someone who does love yourself.  I feel so dumb saying this, but when I went to see the psychiatrist, what felt so disorienting is that I was feeling joy, and it hurt.

For me, learning to feel whole and lovable has been a strangely painful and yet profound process. I see now why we are so afraid to feel love for ourselves, but at the end of the day, it's worth it, and it's real. Everything else has felt like a big detour.

[Grey Kitty]

And the disorienting feelings I experienced were complex, a bit difficult to describe. After my moment, which was basically being in a position where I had to accept kindness from someone who cares about me, I kept weeping, and I'm not really someone does that. I would weep while out walking my dog, while driving my car, just this constant low-level crying. And it wasn't the kind of crying where I felt sad, exactly. More like gratitude, but imagine gratitude causing pain. Which sounds so strange, but that's the only way I can describe it.

I know those tears. A dear friend/supporter of mine named them. She calls them "Tears of Divine Intervention". 

[vortex of confusion]

There is a world of difference between capable/awesome and worthy/lovable.

Hmmm. . .Maybe I need to separate capable/awesome from worthy/lovable. In my mind, I think that being capable/awesome is what makes me worthy/lovable. That might be a source of inner conflict for me. How can I be so awesome/capable yet not feel worthy/lovable? I think I might tie my worth into what I can do and what I can give. If I can't do enough or give enough, then I don't feel worthy/lovable. Within my marriage, I don't feel like I am appreciated or valued because of who I am as a person but rather what I can do and what I can offer.

My experience, the thing I went through, was not at all about being good at something, it wasn't even about being good at being myself. It was about feeling whole.

Nice distinction! I don't feel whole. I feel like little pieces of me are missing. Looking at capabilities, lovability, and worthiness might be futile if I can't figure out what it will take for me to feel whole.

And the disorienting feelings I experienced were complex, a bit difficult to describe. After my moment, which was basically being in a position where I had to accept kindness from someone who cares about me, I kept weeping, and I'm not really someone does that. I would weep while out walking my dog, while driving my car, just this constant low-level crying. And it wasn't the kind of crying where I felt sad, exactly. More like gratitude, but imagine gratitude causing pain. Which sounds so strange, but that's the only way I can describe it.

I had a similar experience one time. I was with a friend and I was sad and in a bad place. This was a moment that was pretty confusing for me. He asked what was wrong and I started talking and I melted down into a ball of tears. He grabbed me held me to his chest and just let me cry like a babbling idiot for quite a while. When I was done, I lifted up my head and he said, "Are you done?" I said, "Yep." And he didn't say anything more about it. We went on to laugh and joke and then parted ways. In that moment, I was so unbelievably confused. I was allowed to break down like an idiot and it wasn't held against me. It wasn't analyzed and it wasn't brought up again. I was allowed to be weak. I was allowed to sit with my feelings without second guessing them or feeling bad for them.

[billypilgrim]

I kept weeping, and I'm not really someone does that. I would weep while out walking my dog, while driving my car, just this constant low-level crying. And it wasn't the kind of crying where I felt sad, exactly. More like gratitude, but imagine gratitude causing pain. Which sounds so strange, but that's the only way I can describe it.

I did the bolded last night on my walk around the lake near my house with my dog.  I don't know why.  I wasn't sad.  It certainly wasn't about her.  I cried on the way to work this morning as well.  For no reason.  Listening to NPR of all things.  I really have no idea what's going on.  I don't cry.  I don't mean that in a tough way or that I don't need to cry.  I just generally don't cry often aside from funerals etc.  Probably just a mechanism I developed to deal with crap.

I guess I'm processing?  I don't know what specifically it is that I am processing.  It's like I have a 6 year (or more) back log of untended emotions that I'm finally figuring out to deal with.  And I certainly don't know what I'm doing.  It's a very surreal, almost out of control sort of feeling.  Everything just sort of bubbles up at once. 

I'd love to have a better idea of what exactly is happening.

[Pou]

I did the bolded last night on my walk around the lake near my house with my dog.  I don't know why.  I wasn't sad.  It certainly wasn't about her.  I cried on the way to work this morning as well.  For no reason.  Listening to NPR of all things.  I really have no idea what's going on.  I don't cry.  I don't mean that in a tough way or that I don't need to cry.  I just generally don't cry often aside from funerals etc.  Probably just a mechanism I developed to deal with crap.

I guess I'm processing?  I don't know what specifically it is that I am processing.  It's like I have a 6 year (or more) back log of untended emotions that I'm finally figuring out to deal with.  And I certainly don't know what I'm doing.  It's a very surreal, almost out of control sort of feeling.  Everything just sort of bubbles up at once. 

I'd love to have a better idea of what exactly is happening.

Billypilgrym. yeah... I know what you mean.  I don't cry often as well ... .although I am a sucker for movies that set me up to fight back the tears... .well, maybe I can be tricked to cry.   Personally, when I finally realize that my wife is a NPD... .it took years for me to accept.  For reason that if I were to accept she is a NPD that would be like accepting a huge defeat and it also means I now have something that is nearly impossible to fix.  I believed that I could do something to turn her around and so I refuse to believe she has any PD issues.  I bend over backwards, I did things to please her and tried to talk to her and etc.  Only to have her slam everything good that I do for her and labeled and twisted as bad... .and then she broadcasted to family and friends, gaslighting negatives of who I am as a person... .  slowly... .as I began to accept the fact that she has NPD... .I started to weep like you... sometimes it comes out... sometimes I weep inside... .realizing that I am in a hopeless and toxic relationship, how do I go on?  I have good reasons for staying and they are very good reasons, I put my kids over my well being ... because I believe at the end of the day, I can handle all these madness.  Good luck to you, my friend... .the journey is not easy, but it must have meanings... .and so we stay on the path.  Best luck to all the journeyman (and woman).     

[Trog]

I cried at the beach today, not huge sobs but just a gentle cry, I suppose there are some things to mourn and miss even if the far more than 50% of the time you are miserable, very miserable. I think my grieving so far has been a kinda 'baby out with the bath water' thing. I dismissed all aspects esp as so much was so hurtful and it's clear she did not love me as I want to be loved. I think I'm a bit sorry for myself. I miss intimacy, there was usually a barb at the end of the intimacy but for a few moments now and then, I never felt more myself and at peace with her. I find that so hard to understand and utterly depressing, why did my heart connect to such a cruel person in those fleeting moments of intimacy we had. I just don't understand

[vortex of confusion]

Hugs to everyone! 

Every now and then, I have a gentle cry. Most of the time, I want to cry but can't. I feel like I have a wall that is firmly in place that keeps me "safe". The few times that the wall has come down or wavered scared the daylights out of me because of the intensity of the emotions and feelings.

[Grey Kitty]

Every now and then, I have a gentle cry. Most of the time, I want to cry but can't. I feel like I have a wall that is firmly in place that keeps me "safe". The few times that the wall has come down or wavered scared the daylights out of me because of the intensity of the emotions and feelings.

Given that you get almost no time away from your husband and children, that wall makes a lot of sense.

Your husband is NOT safe for you to be that emotionally vulnerable around.

Your kids are probably better, but being a good parent means not falling apart in front of them; you provide stability for them, not the other way 'round.

If you find yourself in a place where it is safe for you to have feelings, you may be surprised what comes up.

I'm living alone, and I've had some real tears today and yesterday. I'm finally opening up to myself again after a couple weeks of crazy family/holiday/etc. stuff where I knew I wasn't really safe to be feeling things that strongly, and had more of an obligation to hold it together.

[vortex of confusion]

If you find yourself in a place where it is safe for you to have feelings, you may be surprised what comes up.

I have yet to find that safe place. This board is probably the safest, least judgmental place that I have found with regard to expressing all kinds of crazy, conflicting stuff. I don't know how many times I have cried inside as I have typed or read stuff here. I try not to cry outwardly because my kids notice. They are so unbelievably in tune to me. I try to be honest with them and keep things age appropriate but I also try not to let them know how much stuff I keep to myself. My girls need stability from somebody and they don't get it from dad.

I'm living alone, and I've had some real tears today and yesterday. I'm finally opening up to myself again after a couple weeks of crazy family/holiday/etc. stuff where I knew I wasn't really safe to be feeling things that strongly, and had more of an obligation to hold it together.

I know that I am really looking forward to going back to work in a couple of weeks. That time that I get to myself driving home in the evenings is so invaluable. It is just me and the car and the road. I can cry. I can scream. I can turn the radio up full blast or ride home in total silence. I need some space to let myself feel. Being home with the kids and him for such a long period of time over the holidays has really worn me down.

[Grey Kitty]

I know that I am really looking forward to going back to work in a couple of weeks. That time that I get to myself driving home in the evenings is so invaluable. It is just me and the car and the road. I can cry. I can scream. I can turn the radio up full blast or ride home in total silence. I need some space to let myself feel.

Maybe you should get 'lost' on your way home and take an extra hour in the car.

[vortex of confusion]

Maybe you should get 'lost' on your way home and take an extra hour in the car.

As great as that sounds, it isn't likely that I would do it without letting the kids know. My daughters sometimes get really anxious and freaked out if I do anything that is out of the ordinary or "off schedule". I have planned in advance and come home late a time or two but I don't do it too often. The kids don't like being home with dad without me for any longer than they have to. That brings up another feeling that I often have and that is resentment. I resent the heck out of the fact that my husband can do whatever he wants and the girls don't seem to care. They were soo happy when he went back to work after the holidays. With me, they like having me around because I am the stable one that knows all of their little quirks and knows how to help them.

[livednlearned]

How old are your girls?

[vortex of confusion]

How old are your girls?

6, 7, 10, 13