Thinking of Hiring PI

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Don't know what is up with the site today.  It is saying I am a new member.

My stbxudb has some strange behavior.  (I know, they all do).  He has always been very secretive.  Comes and goes several times a day never telling anyone where he is going.  I know he drinks.  He doesn't keep alcohol in the house so I was thinking he was going to get a beer or two, chug them, then come back home.  Friends would comment seeing him around town doing so much.  Well, the past couple of months he has consistently stuck to one weird antic.  He gets up earlier, around 6 or 6:30, and leaves for an hour.  Even on Sat. and Sun. Every night, around 8:30, 9 he does the same thing.  He hides that he smokes.  Could he just be going for a smoke?  He always leaves in the car, not walking the neighborhood.  The reason it stress me is because I have found many other hidden activities.  Most important, he has arond 300K dollars in investments I knew nothing about.  He has taken our safe from our house, the guns, etc.  He did all this before I even filed for divorce.  I think his behavior the past couple of years was to get me to leave.  It could be a lover, that would help me with the divorce.  If I could catch him drinking, that would help me.  So, I am thinking of hiring a PI to follow him for a day.  Has anyone else ever done this?

[Iforget]

Don't know what is up with the site today.  It is saying I am a new member.

My stbxudb has some strange behavior.  (I know, they all do).  He has always been very secretive.  Comes and goes several times a day never telling anyone where he is going.  I know he drinks.  He doesn't keep alcohol in the house so I was thinking he was going to get a beer or two, chug them, then come back home.  Friends would comment seeing him around town doing so much.  Well, the past couple of months he has consistently stuck to one weird antic.  He gets up earlier, around 6 or 6:30, and leaves for an hour.  Even on Sat. and Sun. Every night, around 8:30, 9 he does the same thing.  He hides that he smokes.  Could he just be going for a smoke?  He always leaves in the car, not walking the neighborhood.  The reason it stress me is because I have found many other hidden activities.  Most important, he has arond 300K dollars in investments I knew nothing about.  He has taken our safe from our house, the guns, etc.  He did all this before I even filed for divorce.  I think his behavior the past couple of years was to get me to leave.  It could be a lover, that would help me with the divorce.  If I could catch him drinking, that would help me.  So, I am thinking of hiring a PI to follow him for a day.  Has anyone else ever done this?

[david]

Never used one so I don't really have any solid advice.

My thoughts:  How much does it cost ?  Is it admissible in court and under what conditions ?  Can you use  a written report or , more likely, do you have to have the PI testify which adds more to the cost and what conditions must be met ? 

I would think the courts would want a history of events and not a single incident to show a pattern.

I would consult an attorney to find out what you need to do legally to make sure it can be used in court, etc.

I would document everything you can now. Do you have proof of his investments. That would help in equitable distribution.

[catnap]

We used a PI in my son's custody case to follow his exgf.   It can be expensive, but if you know what is important to the court, how much evidence they need, etc. you can plan wisely and save expenses. 

You will probably need to show it is a pattern as David said. 

In my son's case it was well worth the expense because it was evidence of the things she was doing while she had the baby with her.  PIs are considered officers of the court and their testimony carries a great deal of weight.  They followed her off and on for 4 months. 

Most PIs will not charge for a consultation.  A consultation from my experience is the only way to know what they charge.  If I remember correctly, I paid a $500 retainer to get the process started.  Your cost should be fairly reasonable, due the regular times of day he goes to do whatever.  I would talk to your L first.  They may have an PI agency that they can recommend.

[ForeverDad]

Your immediate concern is not knowing what you don't know.  For that reason alone a PI would be helpful.  Once you have an idea of what is happening, then you can decide where to go from there.  For all you know it could be just to drink alone.  Or not.

Although I had trusted friends and family, no one would follow my ex.  And I couldn't do it, the beginning of my divorce was far too high conflict.  I did consult with a PI but never had to use one.

[livednlearned]

It sounds like your two biggest concerns are finances and custody.

Hiring a PI probably depends on how his secretive behavior affects your court outcomes.

If he is drinking, that is probably not going to affect custody unless he has a lot of DUIs or something else that tells the court he has a serious problem with alcohol. My ex admitted he had a problem (after saying he was not an alcoholic  ) and his behavior was extremely erratic on Friday and Saturday nights when he drank to excess. He even agreed to not consume alcohol before our during visitation with S13 and judging by his email and text messages, he waited until S13 was asleep and then got rip roaring drunk. The alcohol was only one factor among that influenced custody. On its own, it meant nothing. It's legal to drink, so you have to show that it harms the kids in very concrete ways (ie. driving while drunk with them in the car). Even then, the court has an appalling tendency to wait until there is a clearly demonstrated pattern of bad behavior. I would worry that you prove he is drinking, and then it amounts to nothing except a big bill.

If he is cheating, that also won't likely affect court outcomes, unless you live in one of four (I think four) states that has alienation of affection laws.

Perhaps hiring a forensic accountant would be more appropriate if you think he is hiding money and preventing you from having access to joint accounts?

Another thing to think about is having a deposition. People with BPD don't do well in depositions and don't seem to realize that they are sworn testimonies. Court takes that dead serious. That means your lawyer can cross-examine him on the witness stand, which, if your H lies, will undermine his credibility. Depositions can be really unpleasant -- usually if you depose him, his lawyer will depose you. And if it's anything like my state, you will be in the same room with him. Mine costs a couple thousand dollars, and the transcript of the deposition cost about $700.

I have heard some people say that depositions aren't common in family court where they live, so you need to ask your L about whether that's the case where you live.

[ForeverDad]

Another possible reason for a PI... .A PI might find some poor behaviors that, while perhaps not 'actionable' in court, could be leverage to swing a settlement into less unfair territory.  The dilemma is that you won't know unless you find out.

It may surprise you, especially considering your inability to reason with an unreasonable and obstructing spouse, but most divorces end in settlements, yes, even ours.  So information you discover might be leverage to reach a settlement on better terms.  But that does not mean you have to settle.  If a judge is likely to rule much better than he would agree to, then declining his one-sided offers may be the thing to do.

For example, my case had then-stbEx in control with temp custody and temp majority time of our preschooler.  She had absolutely no incentive to settle since any settlement would have been less favorable than what she already had.  A quick settlement would have been too much in her favor.  So I had to suffer through multiple continuances in addition to every step... .temp order, mediation attempt, parenting investigation, custody evaluation, settlement conference, and finally the scheduled trial.  That was nearly two years of delays.  It was that or put my long term parenting at a severe disadvantage.  But on Trial morning upon arrival at court I was greeted with news that now she was willing to settle.  Talk about "settlement on the court house steps"!  (I later found out she was told by her lawyer that she probably would lose.)  So only then, when no more delays were possible, we were able to negotiate without her entitlement getting in the way.  I even was able to say, "I will be Residential Parent for School Purposes or else we go in and start the trial."  She begged - the only time she ever did that - but I was firm that if we settled she would not walk out with even that supposedly only psychological edge of control.  Both lawyers insisted RP meant nothing.  But they were silent (I wish I could say chastened but I doubt it) when less than two months later when her school reneged on allowing son to finish out his kindergarten school year there.  She had caused one too many scenes at school and with just 5 weeks to go before the school year ended, I was given one day to transfer my son to my school district.

[david]

FD makes a good point. My xBPDw accused me of stealing the entire contents of our house. I was able to get lots of pictures of her new residence from the internet showing the list of things she claimed I stole in her residence. During equitable distribution ex railed about how abusive I am. He ratty jumped on the bandwagon and that was when my atty stopped it. Ex wanted an unusually large amount based on the fact I stole everything. This went on for about 30 to 45 minutes. Finally my atty showed her atty some of the pictures. I had about 50 and he only showed her 3. He did have the pile of photos on the table. Her atty took her client out of the conference room and within 15 minutes we had a settlement. We had a sum of money in an escrow acct and that was split 70/30 in my favor. Ex wanted 90% of it in the beginning. Her atty convinced her that going in front of a judge would not be good for her.

I learned to never give any info away until it was absolutely necessary. I let ex go on an on and then discredit her with facts.

[Iforget]

Thanks for all the advice. I think for now I will hold onto my money. The crazy child psychologist stated that allegations of drinking where only that, allegations as udBPD had no dui. I have been collecting the emails daily. Stbx once again declined to take ds15 to the Dr.as he had a conference call. Issue is, it is on his parenting time. He wants the kids 50/50 but doesn't want to do any dr., dentist, therapy appointments. Stbx is very secretive. Two years ago I found he had over $350 k in secret accounts. He had hidden the tax returns for two years and all of his pay info. He had sold some stock for $56k and accidentally had it put in the checking acct. That's when it all started to unravel.

I got the keys to the rental house today. I am so excited. Planning big move for next Monday. stbx is supposed to be out of town, but if not I will just deal with it. He keeps asking me when I am leaving. I keep saying, when I get some money. The L plans to file for support the day I move out. Bonus today. I was cleaning out the trunk of the car and I found documents for another checking acct. He has with $20 k in it.

In VA, if you have assets, you have to go to court. If I don't have a "cause" for divorce I have less of a chance for a favorable outcome. The L plans to use abandonment, emotional and financial. Meanwhile I am trying to figure out how to apply for food stamps.

[david]

What has been said here many times before. Give someone with BPD enough rope and they will use it. I found that gem very on target. My ex left in 2007. In the beginning I was too upset to see what was going on. The better detached emotionally I became the better I got at seeing what was going on. I give very little info to ex and she gives me tons of info she probably shouldn't be giving to me. Telling the truth is much easier as Mark Twain said because you don't have to remember anything. My ex makes up so many stories and they contradict themselves. Not giving her info also makes her feel comfortable about not getting caught. I just keep gathering whatever comes my way.

I am currently going through a change of custody issue in court. I have over two years of solid evidence that can't be ignored. Just today we had to go to our first court ordered co parent counseling. I let ex do most of the talking and she didn't disappoint.

[livednlearned]

The crazy child psychologist stated that allegations of drinking where only that, allegations as udBPD had no dui.

My L told me the same thing. She did tell me to record his drinking in a log, which I had been doing anyway for different reasons. For about 6 months prior to talking to an L, I was trying to figure out if there was some kind of pattern with alcohol + medication (adderall, ambien, pain killers) and his behavior. It was like a full time job trying to keep track of how many pills he took each day, and how much he was drinking. The log I kept never made it into court (although there have been 60+ filings in 4 years), nor did the deposition in which N/BPDx admitted to having a problem with drinking. Nor did the emails he wrote Friday and Saturday nights in which he clearly seemed inebriated. Nor did the grainy footage I had of him passed out on the floor after binge drinking one night, when he was buck naked and trying to use the curtain as a blanket. Nor did I ever have to testify about him waking up covered in his own feces after he stumbled around drunk smearing it on the walls and sheets and carpet. Nor did the admission in his psych eval that he had been drinking the night he had a psychotic episode when S13 had visitation. Apparently, the only time the court cares about drinking -- despite claiming to deeply and compassionately care about the "well-being of the minor child" -- is when there is a DUI, and even better if there are two. Which doesn't help when your alcoholic has social anxiety and drinks home alone, what many refer to as a "high-functioning" alcoholic.

None of that evidence needed to be heard in front of the judge because N/BPDx started to treat the court and the judge the way he had treated me. He pissed the judge off so many times that I pretty much sat back with popcorn and soda and watched the show.

My point is that drinking heavily seems to be a matter of relative terms. For all you know, the judge could be throwing back a couple of bottles of wine each night.    And substance abuse is rampant among lawyers. Some of the highest rates among the high-paying professions.

Better to claim emotional and verbal abuse, and use your volumes of emails, plus his secreting away of marital funds to show that you had "cause" to leave the marriage. I never tried to poke the bear because I didn't have to, but I completely understand now why people gave me the advice early on when I arrived here to stop walking on eggshells with him. The more disordered his communications to me, the better things went for me in court. The awful part is that your kids have to endure the fall-out, although I can't say it was worse, just that I felt more guilty when I saw how my boundaries ratcheted up N/BPDx's extinction bursts.

What you want are behaviors and lots of documentation. And a good lawyer who 1) knows how to bluff like a pro and leverage your documentation when talking to the other lawyer (which, by the way, happens a lot without you around), and 2) has experience as a trial attorney. Not all family law attorneys have experience going to court. Find out if yours does -- what you get in the confidential confines of his or her office may be very different than what you pay for in court.

Above all, grow a titanium backbone and don't give your lawyer the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't mean you have to be nasty or suspicious,  just attentive. Your lawyer works for you, and if you run things like that, you'll either earn his or her respect, or you'll see whether they have their own agenda, which usually means they suck at representing you.

Sorry, I seem to be feeling some vitriol tonight. I'm 4 years out and leaving my ex is the best thing I have ever done. But some days I feel so angry the toll that this mental illness has cost my family.

[Matt]

I hired a PI, not for my divorce case, but for my son's criminal case.  The PI was recommended by my son's lawyer - they had worked together before - and there were specific reasons the attorney believed the PI could help.

In my state, PIs are licensed, and they will lose their license if they break the rules, like testifying falsely or producing fake evidence.  So they are very credible witnesses, and they know how to gather evidence so it will be admissible - they know what lines can't be crossed.

But as others have said, it needs to be in the service of your legal strategy.  If your strategy is to prove your husband drinks, I think that's probably a losing strategy, not because you can't prove it, but because most people drink - the judge in your case probably drinks - it's not illegal or considered a very serious problem, unless, as others have suggested, there is some dangerous aspect to it, like at least one DUI.

I also don't think it will help you much if you catch him with another woman - another losing strategy.

How old are your kids?  How are they doing now?  Who do they spend most of their time with?

If there are no kids, divorce is way less dramatic in real life than TV makes it look.  Nobody cares who drinks, or who cheated on whom.  You just split up the money and do the math, based on your state's guidelines, to decides who pays how much alimony.  Not worth spending money on a PI or getting too upset about - though it is upsetting - more about the numbers than anything else.

[ForeverDad]

A PI is a professional and can do things we can't do.

We are limited to finding information from public access methods such as court or county websites and records.  A PI may know where and how to search for all sorts of records and other information.

If we followed our ex and it became an issue, we could face claims of harassment or stalking, very serious allegations.  If a PI followed our ex, it's his or her job with very minimal or no repercussions.

[Iforget]

Livednlearned,

Thanks for the reply. Sounds as though we have similar past. I thought I was over all the emotional stuff. Then something will happen and I am smacked in the face again with the emotional toll that the BPD has had on me. The worse is remembering the little things he did in years past that kept me sucked in the relationship without realizing how twisted things were. Yes, it's a lot of work keeping track of his daily antics.