Introducing Myself: It's a horrible existence.

[nx58XSK6gIQ7]

I am so glad I found this site.

Here's my story.

My wife and I met in church, had a short dating period, and got married in five months.

I see now how utterly stupid that was, but, it is what it is.

I am a devout Christian, and am determined to make this work.

She is a devout Christian, but has most of the characteristics of BPD.

We have been married for 13 years.

I really am tired of the chaos, but don't see a biblical way out.

I've tried everything I can think of to help our marriage get better, all to no avail.

I live in an up and down roller coaster, depending on her behavior.

Sometimes, she's great to be with.

Most of the time, though, I am fearful of doing the wrong thing, or not doing the right
thing, or saying the wrong thing, or not saying the right thing.

She EXPLODES over the stupidest things.  And, there is no rhyme or reason to it.

What triggers her today might be fine tomorrow.  Or more likely, what triggered her
last week when done, will trigger her this week if not done.

It's just crazy.  I am losing my mind.


She thinks everyone is against her, looking for a reason to reject here, is setting
her up for failure, etc, etc.

Here's where I see the BPD:

Fear of abandonment ... absolutely .. all the time ... never ends no matter what I do.

Unstable relationships ... a long history of unstable relationships, including ours.

(We have changed churches at least six times since we've been married because the people
are against her, unkind, unloving, etc, etc.  I refuse to leave another church because
each time it has been her twisting of the situation).

Unclear or shifting self-image ... mostly she lives in fear and shame, but sometimes she
sees herself more rationally.

Impulsive, self-destructive behaviors ... she has struggled with alcoholism in the past,
but not since I've known her.  Her biggest impulses these days are shopping.  But, she
is mostly frugal about it.  She just buys a lot, returns most of it, then repeats.

Self-harm ... she has stated she wants to die and go to heaven.  I don't think she would
actually make it happen, though.  I don't get that sense from her.  But, often times in
the middle of a rage, she will take both fists and punch herself in the head.  It's
really bizzare to see someone do that to themselves.

Extreme emotional swings ... oh yeah.  To the max.  She can be pleasant one minute and
screaming like a crazy person the next.  Her normal mood is irritable.  But, anger is
always waiting just below the surface.

Chronic feelings of emptiness ... all the time.

Explosive anger ... certainly.  See above.

Feeling suspicious or out of touch with reality ... definitely.  I often wonder how
she can "remember" things that didn't really happen the way she says they did.  It's
like she lives in an alternate reality.



Honestly, I don't know how much longer I can endure this.  I've tried everything I can
think of to make the marriage work.  But, I feel like I'm married to someone who is
emotionally about 10 years old.  Every day I wonder if she's going to explode over
some stupid thing, real or imagined.

But, being a Christian, I don't see how I can divorce her.  She has not been unfaithful.
And, I go back and forth on whether verbal/emotional abuse is biblical grounds for
divorce.

We've been to counseling three times.  It never accomplishes anything because they try
and work on our communication skills, or other such marriage issues.  But, our issues
are not marriage issues.  Our issues can all be resolved if we could just sit down and
talk through them like adults.

But, that's not possible.  Any discussion has the potential to become an explosion of
anger.  And frankly, most do.

I just keep quite much of the time.  Trying to be pleasant and kind, but not really
sharing anything that's bothering me.

It's a horrible existence.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ozzie101]

Hello nx58XSK6gIQ7 and welcome!

I'm so sorry for what brings you here, but I'm glad you've found us. This is a supportive community and believe me when I say the people here understand where you're coming from.

So much of what you write is familiar: the walking on eggshells, the unpredictable rages, etc.

Marriage counseling (or traditional marriage counseling) sometimes doesn't really work in these situations, that's true. The nature of BPD can require a different approach. However, I will say that working on communication issues can actually be very valuable in situations like this and I speak from experience. When I started posting here, I discovered that the things I was saying or doing, while trying to help the situation, were actually making things worse. Improving my own communication skills made a big difference.

The good news is, there is hope. Last year and early this year, I felt like I was at the end of my rope, dealing with much of what you describe. I was ready to leave my H. I was held back by feelings of guilt over the vows I'd made. But with the help of a good therapist and the people here, I learned a lot of skills and tools that I was able to implement that actually improved our situation. Our relationship is now much stronger than it was. Now, not everyone is that fortunate, but it is possible to make things better. It takes a lot of work and patience, but if you're willing, we're here to help you with that.

There's a lot to unpack here so let's start small. Has your wife been diagnosed with BPD? (If she hasn't, no worries. Many of us here -- including yours truly -- have spouses or partners with no diagnosis.)

Have you done much reading on BPD? For instance, the book Stop Walking on Eggshells? It was a real eye-opener for me. Some of the behavior that seems ridiculous or "crazy" actually makes more sense when you start seeing it with understanding of BPD.

Keep posting! We're here to help!

[nx58XSK6gIQ7]

Thanks for replying.


She has not been diagnosed, but I believe she clearly exhibits many BPD traits.

I am currently reading the walking on eggshells book.

It's helping me understand her behavior a lot more.

Hopefully, understanding it will help me to respond better.

I often do not respond well, which gives her an excuse to blame me for the trouble.

She NEVER wants to look at what was the beginning of the situation ... she just wants to jump to "we are both at fault, let's just forgive each other." Ok.  Fine.  But, we wouldn't be in this situation if she didn't start the conflict to begin with... almost every single time.  But, she never wants to stop and discuss "what was the first thing that occurred before things got out of control."  We can never discuss that.  Never.

[Ozzie101]

Sometimes it helps to examine a situation in detail and get the full perspective. Could you pick a recent example of a conflict and describe it (how it started, who said what, how it ended)? You said you often don't respond well. How do you respond?

[nx58XSK6gIQ7]

Late in the afternoon she said that she had been doing bible study for several hours today.

Assuming she was trying to catch up before the new tomorrow, I asked if she was all caught up.

This sent her into a mood where she accused me of always trying to monitor her and check up on her.

This is totally not true. I am not her parent and I try hard to not act like it.  Been there in previous relationships, know what it looks like, and avoid it like the plague.

But, she accuses.

I let her know in an irritable tone that I didn’t like being accused of that and left the room.

Thirty minutes later, I went to the backyard to spray weed killer on some vines we are planning to remove this weekend.

She opened the door and was yelling at me that I was killing the plants.

I tried to explain why, but she was just out of control angry.

I sat down and she slammed the door shut and went back inside.

A few minutes later, we had to leave for church.  On the way, she tried to get us both to apologize.

I’m tired of apologizing for things she has caused. So, I didn’t.

We got to church and everything was fine.

That’s the thing that really troubles me … she never acts out in public.  People would think I was crazy if I told them what she is like in private. But, only I see it (and I know her kids saw it when they lived with us). But, to everyone else, she is pleasant and kind.

That tells me she can control her behavior. She is choosing to act out at home. Otherwise, if she couldn’t control it, it would happen in public.

I am so tired of this

[Ozzie101]

It is a frustrating situation to deal with, I know. I've been there -- being accused of things I didn't do or not doing anything (i.e., not helping out around the house) when I know for a fact I do a lot. Like I said: frustrating.

If you're reading about BPD, then you've probably learned or started to learn about the whole feelings=facts phenomenon. People with BPD tend to feel things more intensely than Nons and they also usually have poor emotional regulation skills. To handle those negative feelings, they will "put" them somewhere else: lash out about something unrelated to what they're really upset about, confuse fiction and reality to justify what they're feeling, etc.

Feelings of shame, in particular, are super-strong with BPD. Just spit-balling here, but perhaps when you asked your wife if she was all caught up, you were just making conversation or asking a random question. Meanwhile, she may have been feeling pressure to finish her study and therefore heard your innocent question as an accusation or added pressure. So, she lashes out, defensive. See what I mean?

I'm not trying to put blame on you. Just trying to analyze the situation. Sometimes, if we can start to understand what triggers the other person and what part we play, it can start to make a big difference. And, many times, we do actually play a part in what happens.

The thing is, our responses and ways of dealing with our loved ones can have a big impact on how these conversations and altercations go. I learned that last year in dealing with my H. When I started changing my communication style and my reactions, his own behavior started to de-escalate.
Have you read these articles? I found them very helpful:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict
https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

It's VERY common for a pwBPD to appear "normal" -- even charming -- to others and then let loose at home. I'm trying to remember what I've learned about this, but it's not as consciously manipulative as you may think. I hope someone else can jump in with some good info there. But, no, she might not be able to control her actions as much as you may think she can. I think most of us here have witnessed the "normal in public" phenomenon.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear nx-

Welcome to our community.  I’m sorry for the pain and frustration you’re feeling in your marriage.  I understand it is NOT easy to sail through days with our BPD partners as if this behavior is normal.

I may not be the best person to respond at this point because my BPDbf and I broke up on Sunday and I’m trying to hold negative thoughts.  That’s the only way for me to stay away.

PwBPD (or traits) tend to be extremely sensitive to tone of voice... AND if what we’re saying or asking can in ANY WAY be construed as or twisted into a criticism, then that’s how they take it.  As a criticism.  And pwBPD cannot effectively deal with criticism.  And if we don’t immediately use the communication tools to diffuse, then it’s ignition ON.

So if anyone at anytime had EVER questioned or commented to your W about her reading speed or level of comprehension, asking if she was “all caught up” on her bible studies may have pushed an old “pressure” button.  But you’d have no way of knowing that.  So... perhaps next time just try to “read her mood a bit”, validate what she’s doing  “great honey, I’m glad you had some time to yourself today for some study and reflection.”  Keep it light.

When you were spraying the plants and she came outside and yelled at you about killing the plants, you say you “tried to explain why”-  Do you mean you tried to explain that the weeds would be easier to pull if they were dead?  Has there been an issue with this in the past that would cause her to not trust you to spray the unwanted weeds rather than the plants?  I always try to get at what’s “behind” the rage.

nx-  how long have y’all been married?  Did her negative behaviors begin after you married or did you notice some red flags while you were dating?  Is this your first marriage?  Are her kids grown?  Has she ever threatened divorce or to leave the relationship when she’s in a rage?

Just trying to obtain more of a feel for your relationship to provide better support.

I’d like you to look at the tool - workshops section and read about learning NOT to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain).  That’s the very first communication tool I became proficient in and it really helped.  The second was Validation.  In other words, learning not to be “Invalidating”. 

It can get better.  But I admit it would be great if our pwBPD would sometimes meet us part of the way.  And yes, the outside world would be stunned to know what happens when we go home.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[nx58XSK6gIQ7]

Gemsforeyes and Ozzie101 ...

Wow.  You "get it."  I think you really understand my situation.  I was feeling so alone and thought that I was in a situation where I had no one to talk to, no one who could even remotely believe what I was saying and give reasonable counsel.

But, you get it.

Thanks!    

I will respond to each of your posts separately as that will take more time.  But, I just wanted to say thanks.  Really ... thanks ... just knowing someone understands gives me some sanity back.

[nx58XSK6gIQ7]

If you're reading about BPD, then you've probably learned or started to learn about the whole feelings=facts phenomenon.

I think it was a year or so ago when I first was able to define her behavior as being similar to BPD.  I watched a few videos, but nothing more.

Last week, I watched a few more youtube videos, and one of them mentioned the Stop Walking on Eggshells book.  I was actually already at the library, so I searched their catalog and found that it was available to check out digitally, which I did.  As an aside, I was at the library because it was my normal work-from-home day.  But, she was angry most of the morning, which made it difficult to work.  So, I drove to the library and used their internet to work the rest of the afternoon. 

Anyway, that book referred to "welcome to oz" yahoo groups.  I found them to be inactive, so searched and found bpdfamily.

I am in chapter six of the WOE book.  Learning a bunch, but still not all that hopeful that it will make a difference.  You guys, however, are giving me hope.

Learning about feelings=facts has really helped a lot.  I've always known, and she freely admits, that she is driven by her emotions more than logic.  Learning "feelings=facts" to her really explains a lot of what I've experienced.

Feelings of shame, in particular, are super-strong with BPD.

She lives in shame.  She had an abortion in her twenties after having an affair with a married man.  She became a Christian in her thirties.  The memory of the abortion haunts her ... daily.  I sometimes think that is the root of all this angry behavior. 

The thing is, our responses and ways of dealing with our loved ones can have a big impact on how these conversations and altercations go.

I fully acknowledge that.  I know that my responses have not always been kind.  I've never been physically abusive, but, I have to admit that sometimes I've gotten so frustrated that I've said some pretty mean things ... you're not really a Christian ... you're mentally ill ... and similar things.

I know this has only made things worse. And, I've been really trying to control my responses.  But, she never forgets.  Well, she forgets what she's said to ... you're a puny little man ... you're a coward ... you're a jerk ... etc. 

Have you read these articles?

I have not.  But, I certainly will.

Thx

[Ozzie101]

I know this has only made things worse. And, I've been really trying to control my responses.  But, she never forgets.  Well, she forgets what she's said to ... you're a puny little man ... you're a coward ... you're a jerk ... etc.

Very familiar. I rarely lashed out at my H, but he would remember any slight (real or imagined) and bring it up months later. Meanwhile, he forgot a lot of the things he said or did to me. The thing is, though, I do believe he genuinely forgot. I told my therapist about it and said that when H said he didn't remember, it seemed entirely genuine. She told me it very likely was. It's not uncommon at all with traumatized people.

Anyway, it sounds like you're learning a lot more about BPD and are acknowledging your own role. That's excellent. The good news is, there are things you can do to help make things better (or at least stop making them worse) if you're willing to work on it. Working on your own responses to anger and frustration will be a big part of that. The two of you have set a pattern, in a way. Some damage has already been done. It does take a lot of practice, dedication and patience, but it can be worth it -- speaking from experience.

In what ways are you working on your responses? In the articles Gems and I linked, do you see anything that you're already doing or that you think might be helpful?

[nx58XSK6gIQ7]

pwBPD cannot effectively deal with criticism

That's certainly the situation here.  We can never make progress in resolving our issues because anything I say that might even remotely point to something she is doing that is detrimental to the relationship is seen as criticism, and her response is to get angry.

I've said many times, we can resolve any issue in our marriage if we can talk about it like adults.  But since we can't talk about anything without her getting angry, we can't resolve anything.

perhaps next time just try to “read her mood a bit”

If only I could.  I really try.  But, I don't seem to be able to tell if what I say will be received positively or negatively.  And, not saying anything isn't an option, either.  Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Do you mean you tried to explain that the weeds would be easier to pull if they were dead?

Our patio cement is cracking and needs replaced.  The trellis on the patio are full of Lady Banks Rose vines.  They need to come out, too, unfortunately.

We've discussed this for several weeks.  We are in agreement that it has to be done.

In the past, when trying to remove some vines we had, cutting them off at the stem, and even digging them up, has been less than successful.  They always seem to sprout a new plant a few feet away.  Eventually, after many months of spraying the new shoots, the roots die.

I tried to explain to her that I wanted to spray roundup on the plants while they were still growing so that the poison would be taken into the roots and kill the plants before we cut them down this weekend.

But, she freaked because she didn't want to "see the destruction" of the plants when she looked out the window and watched them dying.

So, I stopped.  And, for the next few months I'll have to do the "watch for shoots and kill them" thing.

No matter how irrational she is, it always seems totally rational to her.  And, if I don't agree, I'm a control freak who hates her and wants to see her suffer.

It is just totally crazy that she thinks things like that.  I really do try to behave in ways that will save our marriage.  I often put her needs/wants above my own.  Most of the time, in fact.

how long have y’all been married?  Did her negative behaviors begin after you married or did you notice some red flags while you were dating?  Is this your first marriage?  Are her kids grown?  Has she ever threatened divorce or to leave the relationship when she’s in a rage?

We have been married 13 years.  We only dated for about 4-5 months before we got married.  In retrospect, there were a couple times when I saw a hint of this behavior.  But, it was very minimal, and didn't give me a lot of cause for concern.  She was still getting over a bad divorce, I thought, and would be more 'stable' in due time.

This is not the first marriage for either of us.

Her previous husband was verbally and physically abusive.  Actually, I now wonder if he just lost it a few times because of her screaming at him repeatedly.  I have never lost it that bad.  But, I have had to use all my self control sometimes to stop myself from doing something so repugnant.  But, I now question her characterization of her prior marriage to some degree.  I think that to a large degree, she drove him away.

My previous wife was an alcoholic and a meth addict who had multiple affairs.  And, that's enough about that.

All our children are grown and out of the house (I am 57, she is 59).  There was conflict when there were children in the house.  But, it's gotten exponentially worse with just the two of us in the house.  The last child moved out in 2012.

She has threatened divorce numerous times.  I never have.

However, there is one thing I do that makes her think I am leaving her.  When things start to get out of hand, rather than stay and fight, I leave.  I might be gone an hour, or I might be gone 4-5 hours.  But, I always come back.  She has even stated, though, that she realizes I do this so that I won't respond in anger myself.

I know I need to say something like "I need some time, I'm leaving, I WILL BE BACK."  But in the heat of the moment, I just want to get away from the emotional onslaught.

learning NOT to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain)

I will certainly do that.

Your thoughts?

I know there are things I am doing that are not helping.

I am willing to learn.

You guys are giving me hope, which I haven't had for a long time.

Thanks

[Ozzie101]

I'm going to make an observation and I don't want it to sound like I'm attacking you at all. In what you say, you refer a lot to her "crazy" behavior and "irrational." Understandable. I've felt that way myself. (For instance, when my stepson's school uniform policy changed slightly and H went into an hours-long rant about it and managed to convince himself that SS would end up expelled. Overreaction? Oh, yeah.)

But, it also represents a negative attitude and comes across as dismissive. PwBPD can be very perceptive when it comes to the feelings of others -- things like body language and tone of voice can be magnified. If some of that attitude and those dismissive thoughts are coming across to your wife, then that will just add fuel to the fire.

That's one reason it helps to really understand BPD and to listen with empathy and validate. Something may seem crazy or ridiculous to you, but to her, it's very, very real. That's not to say you should "validate the invalid" (In other words, if she insists that leprechauns are magically causing weeds to grow, you don't need to agree with her.) But her feelings are real. Acknowledging them (genuinely and without judgment) can go a LONG way.

We have some workshop threads on communication techniques that I can point you to if you'd like.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear nx-

Facial expressions.  Yours.  Very key.  If you want to roll your eyes, make sure she cannot see your face when you do it.  I have a very expressive face and really really had to work hard to change how my feelings showed on my face so BPDbf wouldn’t blow a gasket. 

I did NOT verbally express anger or frustration at him until over 5 years into our relationship.  I had no voice and his extreme RAGE scared and silenced me, but I did a ton of JADE until I learned what it was (after I found out about BPD and this site).  I actually think it may have been better if I HAD yelled back a bit.  When I did get nasty last December for the first time, it was because I was working on expressing anger and I NEEDED him gone.

Like you and Ozzie, I could NOT talk about our relationship too much, but did discuss his rage.  And he actually had not really escalated toward me in the last 10 months (since last December).  But... other things... I’m 62 and he’s 61... my T called what’s happening here something like “his personality is not integrating”.  And some other behaviors were becoming more consistently disturbing.  I love him, always will; but I need to protect myself.

nx- the tools WILL help to improve communication with your W.  One thing I noticed you saying is that you and your W could “resolve any issues... talk about it “like adults”.  She will take this as you are accusing her of being stupid and immature.  Can you see that?  We’ve got to be so careful in our word selection.  So you may wish to try a suggestion of sitting together, tv and radio off; phones silenced and in the other room, with the sole purpose of focusing on 1 or 2 issues in the here and now.  “Let’s work on helping US”.

The other thing... taking space when she rages.  That’s a big YES in my book.  You are most certainly allowed to remove your ears and your brain from hurtful behavior.  And to protect your W from hurtful things you don’t want to say.  And IF she suffers from “abandonment fears”, perhaps you can slow your thoughts for a moment and say, “I’ve got to leave for a while so I don’t say something that could hurt US”.

Why do you think the abortion still haunts her daily?  Is she still punishing herself for that and the affair with the married man?  If so, she needs to forgive herself (generally the hardest person to forgive).  She’s a different person now than she was.  And (I don’t mean to be harsh on you, nx) when you say to her “you’re not a Christian”, what may be happening when you say that to your W?

Finally, when your W threatens divorce how do you respond?  What do YOU say or do when she issues her threat?

Sorry, I’m throwing a lot at you, my friend.

Thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[nx58XSK6gIQ7]

But, it also represents a negative attitude and comes across as dismissive.

You are correct.  I have become quite negative, especially the last six months.  It's like I've lost hope and so ... whatever.

I know that's wrong. 
I know I need to change.

We have some workshop threads on communication techniques that I can point you to if you'd like.

Please do, although it may take me a few days to get through everything.

[nx58XSK6gIQ7]

I did NOT verbally express anger or frustration at him until over 5 years into our relationship. 

Same here ... but, probably not until 7-8 years into our relationship.  I remember very clearly the first time I had had enough and got nearly as angry as she was.  I wasn't only angry at her, I was angry that I had reached the end of the road of ideas of how to stop the seemingly endless conflict over seemingly trivial things.  It was an ugly 10-15 minutes (nothing physical). After it was all over, I cried.  I think our marriage has been significantly damaged from that day forward.

She will take this as you are accusing her of being stupid and immature.  Can you see that? 

I can.  I need to do better.

Why do you think the abortion still haunts her daily?  Is she still punishing herself for that and the affair with the married man?

Exactly.

She struggles to believe she has been forgiven, so struggles to forgive herself.  I have always tried to show her the truth of scripture.  She is forgiven.  Period.  But, she struggles.

when you say to her “you’re not a Christian”, what may be happening when you say that to your W?

That's probably the worst thing I have ever said to her.  I have apologized repeatedly, and don't say it anymore.

Finally, when your W threatens divorce how do you respond?  What do YOU say or do when she issues her threat?

99 times out of 100, I tell her that I don't think that is the solution.  That I want work through our issues.  A time or two, though, I have told her to "go for it."  But, I am always trying to convince her that I do not want a divorce.  I still don't.

[Ozzie101]

Here are some things to look at (in addition to the two I linked earlier). Don't feel rushed. I don't want to overwhelm you! But you may find some very valuable skills and information here.

Validation/invalidation
https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=81442.0

How to be more empathetic:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=210574.0

Using SET (Support Empathy Truth)
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0

On JADEing (Justify Argue Defend Explain):
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

This is a LOT and not necessarily for you to absorb all at once. Take your time. As you do read these, I hope you'll post your thoughts and whether or not you think these might help.

One thing I'll point out if you do decide to implement some new communication techniques: Don't expect things to change overnight. In fact, she might react more negatively at first, not liking the change. It took years for the two of you to build your pattern of interaction. It will take time for that to change -- like a river changing its course. But it CAN be done.