Divorce negotiations with a pwBPD?

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Hi All. I haven’t been on this forum for a while, but I will soon have to deal with a complicated situation and would be grateful for some advice. It’s been a year an a half since my BP wife moved out and filed for divorce. We’d had a pretty decent relationship for 10 or 12 years, before she started to distance herself. I believe my daughter-in-law’s getting pregnant, and my involvement with my grandson were killer events for her (her two daughters will never have their own kids). The deaths of both her parents and her receiving an inheritance was likely a factor. My growing awareness of her BPD behavior and decreasing tolerance of it, not always 100% tactful, might also have figured.

She had prepared very thoroughly for her departure—finding a lawyer, renting an apartment, making financial arrangements—all in secret. She planned her move for a time when she knew I’d be away for a few days. I came home to find her, and a lot of stuff from the house, gone. In her Dear John note she said she acted as she did because she didn’t want to be “derailed by futile negotiations.”

Our prenuptual agreement makes the divorce simpler than it would be otherwise, but it turns out there are some areas of ambiguity having to do with money. Fortunately, there are no children involved.

For reasons I needn’t to go into here things have moved slowly, but I think we may be approaching the time of settlement. My lawyer says, “You can bring about a settlement anytime by filing with the court, but then you’ll be throwing everything into the hands of a judge. Is that what you want?” I told her No, I’d prefer to try to negotiate.

So, here’s my question: How do you negotiate with a pwBPD? My W’s lawyers (she’s now with number three) have all said they hope to settle out of court. But my W stated at the very beginning that she didn’t want to negotiate. She doesn’t even speak to me now when we run into each other in the supermarket.

Obviously, in her mind I’ve fallen off the white horse I rode in on, into deep slime. I have become an irredeemably evil person who could never be trusted to deal fairly or honestly. Given this, how do I even get her to the table? The process is complicated by the fact that all or part of any negotiation will be done by the lawyers.

What do I ask my lawyer to say to my W’s lawyer, assuming it will be passed on to my W? I don’t know whether my W would agree to hiring a mediator. As with so much BPD behavior, I think the underlying obstacle to normal dealings here is fear. But is there any way to get past that?

Are there are people on this forum who have dealt with situations like this, or have had experience that might be comparable? I’d be very grateful to learn what has worked or hasn’t worked for them. Speculations welcome.

[alterK]

Hi All. I haven’t been on this forum for a while, but I will soon have to deal with a complicated situation and would be grateful for some advice. It’s been a year an a half since my BP wife moved out and filed for divorce. We’d had a pretty decent relationship for 10 or 12 years, before she started to distance herself. I believe my daughter-in-law’s getting pregnant, and my involvement with my grandson were killer events for her (her two daughters will never have their own kids). The deaths of both her parents and her receiving an inheritance was likely a factor. My growing awareness of her BPD behavior and decreasing tolerance of it, not always 100% tactful, might also have figured.

She had prepared very thoroughly for her departure—finding a lawyer, renting an apartment, making financial arrangements—all in secret. She planned her move for a time when she knew I’d be away for a few days. I came home to find her, and a lot of stuff from the house, gone. In her Dear John note she said she acted as she did because she didn’t want to be “derailed by futile negotiations.”

Our prenuptual agreement makes the divorce simpler than it would be otherwise, but it turns out there are some areas of ambiguity having to do with money. Fortunately, there are no children involved.

For reasons I needn’t to go into here things have moved slowly, but I think we may be approaching the time of settlement. My lawyer says, “You can bring about a settlement anytime by filing with the court, but then you’ll be throwing everything into the hands of a judge. Is that what you want?” I told her No, I’d prefer to try to negotiate.

So, here’s my question: How do you negotiate with a pwBPD? My W’s lawyers (she’s now with number three) have all said they hope to settle out of court. But my W stated at the very beginning that she didn’t want to negotiate. She doesn’t even speak to me now when we run into each other in the supermarket.

Obviously, in her mind I’ve fallen off the white horse I rode in on, into deep slime. I have become an irredeemably evil person who could never be trusted to deal fairly or honestly. Given this, how do I even get her to the table? The process is complicated by the fact that all or part of any negotiation will be done by the lawyers.

What do I ask my lawyer to say to my W’s lawyer, assuming it will be passed on to my W? I don’t know whether my W would agree to hiring a mediator. As with so much BPD behavior, I think the underlying obstacle to normal dealings here is fear. But is there any way to get past that?

Are there are people on this forum who have dealt with situations like this, or have had experience that might be comparable? I’d be very grateful to learn what has worked or hasn’t worked for them. Speculations welcome.

[zachira]

I have not dealt with a situation like yours yet I do know about having to hire and work with a lawyer to negotiate with my NPD sister's lawyer over some joint financial matters. I came to realize that being the target of my sister's dysregulated emotions, that there was no way for me to talk to my sister about anything because all it could do would be to lead to more drama and hateful acts towards me on her part. A pretty common behavior of people with BPD and NPD is being on their best behavior hoping to be able to enlist others to bully their target, and this may happen if you have a lawyer negotiating on your behalf. It can be sort of like going to couple's therapy in which the spouse with BPD or NPD does everything to try to convince the therapist that they are a victim of terrible abuse by their spouse and sometimes it works. Do you have a lawyer who you feel confident will streamline the process and get what needs to be done without rewarding unnecessary drama on the part of your ex?

[ForeverDad]

So this is all about financial matters, assets and debts.  Fairly straightforward but even that can go awry with less than predictable court decisions.

In my divorce custody issues were the big issue, quite typical.  The end result?  The lawyers dealt with the financial split in a couple hours on Trial Day after 2 years of wading through every required step in the divorce process.

Why Trial Day?  Mediation attempts were ordered at the start of the divorce and my spouse was too entitled to sincerely negotiate so early in the process.  Even approaching The End, my ex was still too entitled to negotiate in the Settlement Conference.

But then she got herself booted from the pediatrician's practice — she had custody in the temp order and they "withdrew their services" to our kindergarten age son.  What I only found out afterward was that her lawyer had advised her she would likely lose at trial.  So when I arrived at the court house that day I was surprised that finally she was ready to settle.

The point I often mention is that actual negotiation or capitulation typically occurs only just before a major hearing or trial event.  So is there an upcoming make or break event?

Most of us do manage to settle, also surprising most of us.  Meanwhile the lawyers keep billing $$$.

[alterK]

I agree with zachira (thanks!) that it's important to get the lawyer on board. In "High Conflict People in Legal Disputes," Bill Eddy claims that a great many difficult legal cases are caused by people with personality disorders. I have tried to show my lawyer what a problematic person my W is, without seeming too accusatory. Not sure how successful I've been at that, so I'll have to pay more attention.

And thanks also to FD. Seems like I'm doing a lot of reading. Another book is "Never Split the Difference" by Chris Voss. He's an ex-FBI hostage and kidnapping negotiator, and writes mostly about very high stakes situations, but still I think a lot of his stuff is useful for much less fraught negotiations. One thing he says is that you shouldn't fear deadlines, that they can be useful. So it may be that what will happen in my case is that my hope for a less stressful exchange will turn out to be in vain, but that under pressure there will be a chance to accomplish something.

[Pook075]

Question- will the split of the remaining assets have a big impact on your life?

I'm asking because if the answer is 'no', then it really doesn't matter how this turns out.  Let the attorneys do their thing and figure it out themselves.

If the answer is 'yes', what really changes from the 'no' answer?  You can't talk to your wife directly (her decision, refusal to negotiate) and both attorneys will know if your wife is being unreasonable.  A judge will also see that and intentions play a big factor when one is willing to compromise and the other is set in stone.  Judges don't appreciate when someone negotiates in bad faith because it wastes the court's time.

I wish you luck!

[alterK]

Thanks, Pook. The impact would be...medium... As I said, I am fortunate, compared many here, that there are no children involved.

I think a conclusion to be drawn from what you say is that I and my lawyer should still make a good faith attempt to negotiate, even if it doesn't yield immediate results. It could help me, even if the final decisions must be made by a judge.

[Pook075]

Thanks, Pook. The impact would be...medium... As I said, I am fortunate, compared many here, that there are no children involved.

I think a conclusion to be drawn from what you say is that I and my lawyer should still make a good faith attempt to negotiate, even if it doesn't yield immediate results. It could help me, even if the final decisions must be made by a judge.

Exactly, it will show in court that one is trying to negotiate and the other is just seeking vengeance.

[Cat Familiar]

My NPD/BPD/ASPD ex became unreasonable at the time of the divorce and what he wanted was EVERYTHING, even an inheritance that was solely mine. There was no meeting of the minds, compromise, or dividing it down the middle. He was out for blood and he had the most pitbully of local attorneys that was available.

My attorney, who subsequently became a judge, negotiated a fair settlement, that gave me everything I owned outright. I did have to pay more than I’d wanted for my ex to go away, but my attorney said that contesting it would end up being more expensive with court time than paying it outright.

In the end, I got a heck of a good deal. I got my property without encumbrances and what I paid my ex now looks like a pittance.

[Skip]

So, here’s my question: How do you negotiate with a pwBPD? My W’s lawyers (she’s now with number three) have all said they hope to settle out of court. But my W stated at the very beginning that she didn’t want to negotiate. She doesn’t even speak to me now when we run into each other in the supermarket.

Has she already stated her terms? Do you know exactly what she wants?

[PeteWitsend]

Thanks, Pook. The impact would be...medium... As I said, I am fortunate, compared many here, that there are no children involved.

I think a conclusion to be drawn from what you say is that I and my lawyer should still make a good faith attempt to negotiate, even if it doesn't yield immediate results. It could help me, even if the final decisions must be made by a judge.

absolutely.  You should attempt to mediate, and do so in a way that makes your XW's refusal "visible" to the court. 

As a divorce litigant, this may be the only time you're involved in family law court... but remember there are other forces at play here.

Judges have an interest in keeping things moving and keeping things OUT of their courtroom.  Along those lines, if one party is making good faith efforts to settle/mediate a case, and the other is simply refusing, that will likely prejudice the court against them if it has to go to a hearing.

The attorneys too are often "repeat customers" in front of a judge, and they don't want to get a reputation for wasting the judge's time or failing to corral their clients. 

So if you can make it known you're trying to settle, and your Ex won't even come to the table, that's going to make her look worse.  Now... it may not matter in the end, but it can't hurt your case in the eyes of the judge, and can only help.

[PeteWitsend]

As far as "how to negotiate with a pwBPD"... I've read the following things here, and also had some experience in my own divorce. I'll just list these out:

- if you're at an impasse, consider conceding on something else out that is less significant to you.  If the pwBPD can feel like they "won" something, they're less likely to be stubborn and more likely to give.  Toss them a bone to gnaw on...

- don't expect any kindness or decency to be reciprocated by the pwBPD, and showing any might even provoke them to be more aggressive.  So... don't unnecessarily concede anything.  For example, I tried to ask for $2000 to compensate me for half of the furniture I left in the house.  She said it was all junk and worth nothing (not true), and plus I had to buy all new stuff to furnish my new place.  I should've called her bluff and said "give it all to me then" and negotiated from there.  Instead I conceded this point... never got anything for it.  she fought over every remaining item on the list

- don't give them any remaining rights over anything you'll need/use/want; they will abuse their power.  get a clean break.

[livednlearned]

My W’s lawyers (she’s now with number three)

Any thoughts on why she's on her third lawyer?

So, here’s my question: How do you negotiate with a pwBPD?

Have you had to negotiate with her before on anything? Or observed her negotiating with others during the time you were together? If so, how did it go?

How do you anticipate you will feel or respond in negotiations with her, and how might that impact the way things unfold?