Borderline and Bipolar

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Okay, I started to talk a bit about this in another thread, but I'd like to address it as it's own.  I've come to realize that I am a recovered borderline, and I'm diagnosed and treated for bipolar II.  Borderline and bipolar have a high comorbidity, according to all the literature I've read.

Bipolar gives you ups and downs you can't control.  It can be triggered by stress, yes, but it's not a personality disorder.  It's a brain disease where you can't control the amount of energy you have, basically.  This leads to highs, in which you feel you can rule the world-- sexual promiscuity, gambling, compulsive behaviors such as overspending, rages, irritability, all those can occur due to highs.  The lows produce depression, suicidal ideation, lethargy, irritability (again, just a different flavor) and general loss of interest (affect), sometimes to the point of dissociation and depersonalization.  Both highs and lows can produce psychosis, if they are extreme.

Borderline seems to be (from what I'm learning here, and thank you for that), an inability to control emotional responses, and a dysfunctional system of defense against pain.

From what I've read from some of these posts, I can't help but smell bipolar as well.  The two together are hell to live with, from my personal experience.  It makes you act and feel like different people at different times, and with rapid cycling bipolar (like I have) the shift can be very quick, like within a matter of quarter hour (for me).  Do any of you know if your BPs had biploar as well?  Particularly those who describe behaviors such as cheating and/or immediately hooking up with a new partner after a breakup.  That just sounds like a bipolar high mixed with borderline dysfunction to me.

Any thoughts?

Grim

[grimalkin]

Okay, I started to talk a bit about this in another thread, but I'd like to address it as it's own.  I've come to realize that I am a recovered borderline, and I'm diagnosed and treated for bipolar II.  Borderline and bipolar have a high comorbidity, according to all the literature I've read.

Bipolar gives you ups and downs you can't control.  It can be triggered by stress, yes, but it's not a personality disorder.  It's a brain disease where you can't control the amount of energy you have, basically.  This leads to highs, in which you feel you can rule the world-- sexual promiscuity, gambling, compulsive behaviors such as overspending, rages, irritability, all those can occur due to highs.  The lows produce depression, suicidal ideation, lethargy, irritability (again, just a different flavor) and general loss of interest (affect), sometimes to the point of dissociation and depersonalization.  Both highs and lows can produce psychosis, if they are extreme.

Borderline seems to be (from what I'm learning here, and thank you for that), an inability to control emotional responses, and a dysfunctional system of defense against pain.

From what I've read from some of these posts, I can't help but smell bipolar as well.  The two together are hell to live with, from my personal experience.  It makes you act and feel like different people at different times, and with rapid cycling bipolar (like I have) the shift can be very quick, like within a matter of quarter hour (for me).  Do any of you know if your BPs had biploar as well?  Particularly those who describe behaviors such as cheating and/or immediately hooking up with a new partner after a breakup.  That just sounds like a bipolar high mixed with borderline dysfunction to me.

Any thoughts?

Grim

[2010]

Borderline and bipolar have a high comorbidity, according to all the literature I've read.

That literature is wrong. The two have nothing in common.  A Borderline does what they think gives them protection and valuation in the World.  Their behavior is mercurial, it can change several times within one day. To the untrained eye, this can appear like a bi-polar chemistry issue- but it’s not chemically activated and then subsides.  Borderline exists constantly.  It’s having these dueling emotions of doubt and shame very close to the surface.  :)oubt and shame are recalled in their mind over and over again (action/re-action) to prevent and block a healthy attachment to others that they fear resembles the sadistic master parent they are trying to get away from. Borderline is the failure to self-actuate. It also comes with a massive dose of anxiety over the *failure* to self-actuate (a.k.a. the failure to self-soothe.)

Borderline personality disorder is called *borderline* because the American Psychoanalytic Association and in particular, it’s former President, Heinz Kohut, felt that it was very close to (on the border of) a psychosis.  A Psychosis is described as having a "loss of contact with reality.” Borderline psychosis dwells in fantasy- and works itself out through the rewarding and withdrawing actions and reactions in their “interpersonal relationships.”

Borderline psychosis is a warped idea that the Borderline cannot escape from their punitive, controlling upbringing. They have shame and doubts about whether or not this is true, so they’re constantly at work to re-create the dynamic in their inter-personal relationships.  By mirroring and idealizing, they have you as a rapt audience- this allows them to re-work their inner thoughts of judgmental hypercriticism through you- as they begin to devalue you and turn you into their earliest notion of evil. That brainwashing means an escape plan from their mental captors (They can only do this by using you as a stand-in.)

They choose people that seem to have (dominant) ideas about what it means for them to live.  Ideas that are then twisted into controlling bondage, making the Borderline submissive and captive.

According to Wikipedia, “People experiencing psychosis may report delusional beliefs, and may exhibit personality changes and suffer thought disorders. This may be accompanied by unusual or bizarre behavior, as well as difficulties with social interactions and impairment in carrying out their daily activities.”

But Borderlines aren’t mumbling to themselves like Schizophrenics or isolating themselves in a Log Cabin in the woods like the Unabomber or acting so oddly so that we would suddenly cross the road to get away from them. Borderlines have some very appealing, normal to above average physical representations that cover up their hidden, supercritical, and mental thought processes.   In other words, they look normal- but play out their hidden thought disorder in “acting out” hiccups against those they *perceive* to be controlling them.

Borderlines do not appear emotionally “unavailable”- they mirror, which makes them appear very attractive, very available and “wanting.” Underneath this lurks a “runs silent, runs deep” operating system that moves in their mind like a chess match, isolating them from others as they use people like board pieces in a self fulfilling prophecy of persecution.

Borderlines*are* listening to critical voices, but they keep these voices under wraps until they can ventriloquise them out of others mouths.  (That means that a voice is coming out of your mouth but it’s not you talking- it’s their parent.)

Why would a Borderline want to be with someone who reminds them of their parent? Answer: So they can re-live the childhood scapegoating and criticism and overcome it. Unfortunately, they come out of it by either cruelly getting revenge on the parent or by completely eliminating themselves by ending their lives as a final act of retaliation against the perceived slavemaster.

Borderline is an attachment disorder.  The only attachment they can accomplish is a false bond. The disorder is a repetition compulsion to attempt and then fail the false bond. The genesis of Borderline is the failure of the infant to separate and individuate.  Rather than create a SELF- the Borderline child created a mask of adhering to others.  They choose people that they perceive are strong enough to host them like a parent would.  The bond never holds, because according to the Borderline, their parent was controlling and critical. The option of walking alone- and being responsible for themselves is so foreign and so frightening- that the first two reactions, (mirroring and clinging) have become the brainwashed day to day operational.

Borderlines feel they must perform for their survival (reward) by playing and molding themselves to other people’s belief systems.  If those other people are also wearing masks of their own, such as rescuing or saving masks, the Borderline will reward that by attempting to adhere with a false bond.  This is the number one reason for Borderline failure in therapy- because of transference acting out behaviors.  The Borderline adopts the therapist as a parent, projects on to them- and then the therapists’ counter transference projects the therapists issues back on to the Borderline.  It takes a very strong therapist to confront the behavior and guide it away from the familiar victim/rescuer-persecution, but it can be done.  This is what it means to be a “recovering borderline” and it has nothing to do with bi-polar chemistry.

[grimalkin]

Um, okay . . . well, I don't know what to say except that I explained pretty clearly that the two are not the same thing, one is a mental illness and one is a personality disorder (I should have said it in those words).  The two actually DO occur together frequently.  Keep in mind, for instance, that families with mental illness can and do produce dysfunctional children.  I should have said that as well.  The mental illness of a parent CAN and often DOES produce dysfunctional children, even if those children don't inherit the mental illness itself.  Now imagine the odds for a child WITH the illness, raised by parents with that same illness.

I'm not sure what just happened, but I'm just asking if anyone knew or suspected bipolarity in their partners.  If you want to tell me everything I've read plus the educated opinion of two psychiatrists I know personally are wrong, I don't know what else to say.  There IS a high correlation between the two, just by nature of the disorders.

Grim

[ex_bf_worried]

2010 why are some people diagnosed with bipolar and BPD?

[ex_bf_worried]

My exBPDgf was diagnosed with both BPD and bipolar. I was trying to find out what are the similarities and differences of them separate and together. Is it worse than them being separate?

[alig2]

There IS a high correlation between the two, just by nature of the disorders.

Grim, I do believe you're right.  My therapist and I were thinking my XUBPD was bipolar until I stumbled across the borderline info.  I still feel he might have had some bipolar issues as well.

I have read there is a high correlation with mood disorders and personality disorders.  I don't know how there couldn't be.   I also think the bipolar term may be overused by therapists and docs when people don't dig enough to look further into personality disorders.

[WalrusGumboot]

I would be tempted to think bipolar and BPD are very similar except for excerpts of conversation between me and uBPDw:

Her: You hurt me so bad.

Me: Well, you hurt me too.

Her: Poor You.

Me: What?

Her: You hurt me so bad.

The egocentricity and the turning of emotions on a dime are casebook BPD. It is not to say she falls into depressive episodes, but they are generally in response to her actions, such as the sudden painting of a former "white" friend to "black".

[grimalkin]

My exBPDgf was diagnosed with both BPD and bipolar. I was trying to find out what are the similarities and differences of them separate and together. Is it worse than them being separate?

Oh, it's worse.  MUCH worse.  One feeds the other.

Grim

[grimalkin]

I would be tempted to think bipolar and BPD are very similar except for excerpts of conversation between me and uBPDw:

Her: You hurt me so bad.

Me: Well, you hurt me too.

Her: Poor You.

Me: What?

Her: You hurt me so bad.

The egocentricity and the turning of emotions on a dime are casebook BPD. It is not to say she falls into depressive episodes, but they are generally in response to her actions, such as the sudden painting of a former "white" friend to "black".

I didn't mean to suggest that the two are all that similar, just highly comorbid (tend to occur together).  Maybe they can seem similar to an observer, but they are different things.

Grim

[T2H]

I know a good number of folks (on and off the boards) whose partner was initially thought to have BiP and then turned out they have BPD instead (not as well as).  I'm not aware of anyone where the reverse was true (but obviously it's possible).  Both could theoretically occur together but I'm not sure if they have a increased propensity to do so (any more than any other two disorders such as BPD and NPD [or strong traits of both]) - is there actual evidence of this (and possible reasons why) or simply this frequent (initial) confusing of BPD as BiP?

[I was in a 5 year relationship with someone who was eventually diagnosed as BiP, and in a one year one with someone tentatively diagnosed as BPD - and they were VASTLY different people/experiences.]

[PotentiallyKevin]

Bipolar and Borderline are completely different illnesses. I have bipolar disorder. I talk extensively about the differences here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=125304.msg1235838#msg1235838

Almost EVERY story about a person with Borderline Personality Disorder I have ever heard, involves them being diagnosed AT LEAST ONCE as having Bipolar disorder. It is one of the most tragic flaws of the psychiatric system we have today, and is the main cause for the misconception and false stigma that is associated with bipolar disorder.

Bipolar disorder has nothing to do with ego-wounds, identity disturbances, or interpersonal conflict. In short, Bipolar disorder is like being on speed. When you are manic (high), it is wonderful, lots of energy and motivation. When your mania ends, you go through horrible withdrawal, lethargy, and depression.

A lot of people express bipolar disorder differently. It all depends on what personality traits you inherently possess. Basically, mania intensifies your underlining personality. If you are rage-prone person normally, during a manic phase, your rages will be intensified. If you are a creative person, your creativity can be intensified by a manic phase. If you are an extrovert, your extroversion will be intensified during a manic phase.

If a person with bipolar disorder is expressing identity issues, interpersonal conflict, or even self-mutilation, there is more at play than just bipolar disorder. Unfortunately, bipolar disorder has a bad rap because of this - the failure to distinguish what is "bipolar" and what is an innate problem with the person, regardless of bipolar disorder.

Are borderlines more likely to be bipolar? Generally, people who have one mental illness are more likely to have multiple mental illnesses, a lot of this has to do with genetic temperament.

But this hardly explains why every borderline seems to also be diagnosed with bipolar disorder. The rate of bipolar disorder is roughly 1-2% of the population, so I would imagine that the rate of borderlines with comorbid bipolar disorder should follow suit - meaning 1-2% of those with borderline personality disorder ALSO have bipolar disorder, but accounting for the fact that people with one mental illness are more likely to have MULTIPLE mental illnesses, I would put the figure at 5-10% and that is being generous... .

I am a mental health advocate - especially for bipolar disorder. I have helped out with a lot of events and given presentations about mental health issues and my own experience recovering from bipolar disorder. I cannot begin to tell you how many times I have been talking about bipolar disorder when I hear from someone: "My ex has bipolar disorder and he/she did XYZ" and I roll my eyes and get to explain to them they are not experiencing someone who is expressing problems associated with bipolar disorder... .they are expressing entirely unrelated problems, usually pointing to personality disorder issues. I had one woman almost in tears, because the bipolar disorder explanation never made sense to her - the symptoms just didn't match up. When I told her about borderline personality disorder, her eyes lit up and she shouted "yes, that is exactly what my ex was like."

NPD, BPD and even AsPD are far too often misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder. This needs to stop. It is one of my three missions I have set for myself in psychology:

#1 Raise awareness about Borderline Personality Disorder - Blow it out of the water... .I want everyone to know about this awful disorder.

#2 Debunk the myth about female passivity and male aggression - it just simply is not true. Aggression is not discriminate to gender.

which brings me to the third:

#3 Get rid of the bipolar-borderline association. Psychologists, Doctors, Social Workers, and even Psychiatrists unfortunately know very little on how to distinguish the two, and far too often get caught up on the term "mood swing" and automatically assume bipolar disorder. This needs to change. The stigma associated to bipolar disorder because or borderline personality disorder is widespread... .

Hope this helps.  

[2010]

I also think the bipolar term may be overused by therapists and docs when people don't dig enough to look further into personality disorders.

Exactly right. It is so much easier to prescribe medication than to invest the time into psychoanalysis.  The field of psychoanalysis (as opposed to psychiatry) is largely unregulated- because anything goes as far as piecing together theories of how to go about treating people.  Borderline was not really an official diagnosis until the late 1980's, because many psychoanalysts began to see clinging behaviors in therapy. They found some patients "acting out" in defeat of their self-actualization. These patients actually wanted to be told what to do and any autonomy or self responsibility scared them.

At that point, the A.P.A. knew something was up and informed their membership through several A.P.A. conventions on how to deal with this learned helplessness and get the word out that therapists should understand how to identify and recognize this type of patient- (most alarmingly suicidal in adolescence) and living on the border of neurosis and psychosis in thinking that others are responsible for all of their choices.  These patients did not respond well to separating themselves from others without fear of annihilation. They sabotaged traditional analysis (which involved transference) because they systematically acted out against self actualization by creating intense need to being looked after.  The therapist generally felt obligated to discontinue therapy because it appeared to enable the patient's helplessness and suggest the patient try medication instead.

The insurance companies began to set standards in order for payment of therapy to continue. Does this person have an untreatable illness? Medication is one way to keep your patient in the payment cycle... .

Now having said all of that- having both a personality disorder and a chemical imbalance together does exist.  But it is better to treat the behavior first without attributing it to the body.

[grimalkin]

I can cite sources better when I'm in a better mood and not so tired    Trust me for now, that's what I've read and been told by two psychs.

I can suggest that a bipolar parent can produce a borderline child, simply by being inconsistent.  The intensity of bipolar varies of course, but the stage is set if the disease isn't treated effectively.

Grim

[PotentiallyKevin]

2010 why are some people diagnosed with bipolar and BPD?

Simply put, because mental health professionals often don't know any better.

[PotentiallyKevin]

I can cite sources better when I'm in a better mood and not so tired    Trust me for now, that's what I've read and been told by two psychs.

I can suggest that a bipolar parent can produce a borderline child, simply by being inconsistent.  The intensity of bipolar varies of course, but the stage is set if the disease isn't treated effectively.

Grim

Sure. And a lumberjack can produce a borderline child, I am failing to see the connection... .

[eman01]

This sounds familiar. The uBPDxgf said she was diagnosed bipolar by a couple of psychiatrists but then later said her current one thinks she may not be at all. She is on medication that is usually prescribed for bipolar. Her current doc may be on to something here in that maybe he suspects BPD instead of/or along with bipolar. She has cycled through several therapists and psychiatrists in the past enough so they barely get a shot at a BPD diagnosis. To top it all off, she was also addicted to opiates and was being treated for that. So the dual/multi diagnosis made this really complex. At first I thought I was dealing with drug addiction and bipolar. After the last go round with her where she was off the drugs, the BPD patterns still manifested. So I got educated on this board and have stayed away from her since.

At first I thought I was dealing with bipolar but it didn't quite resonate until my T suggested she may be BPD and I read up on it. From what I read, bipolar is manageable but BPD is not. Since she was medicated for bipolar and was still acting out, it had to be BPD. I do believe though that the meds dilute the personality disorder in that she did not rage or get physically violent with me.

Bottom line, she's diagnosed bipolar, was a drug addict with a high probability of relapse, and is probably BPD but has managed to dupe her caretakers. I can't believe I loved this person. It's sad really.

[Blythe1976]

NPD, BPD and even AsPD are far too often misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder. This needs to stop. It is one of my three missions I have set for myself in psychology:

#1 Raise awareness about Borderline Personality Disorder - Blow it out of the water... .I want everyone to know about this awful disorder.

#2 Debunk the myth about female passivity and male aggression - it just simply is not true. Aggression is not discriminate to gender.

which brings me to the third:

#3 Get rid of the bipolar-borderline association. Psychologists, Doctors, Social Workers, and even Psychiatrists unfortunately know very little on how to distinguish the two, and far too often get caught up on the term "mood swing" and automatically assume bipolar disorder. This needs to change. The stigma associated to bipolar disorder because or borderline personality disorder is widespread... .

YES! YES! YES! If I had pom-poms from my cheerleading days, I would be waving them for you! I agree that there needs to be as much awareness about BPD as there is about cancer or HIV. BPD is so incredibly destructive on so many levels, not only for the pwBPD, but for everyone they get close to—and in some cases even the people they're *not* close to, depending on how many of the criteria they fit. Not to mention the high suicide rates for pwBPD, and the deaths caused by their impulsive, reckless behaviors (drug abuse, reckless driving, criminal behavior, sexual promiscuity).

And on Point 2, again YES. There's way too much inaccurate portrayal of the borderline female as being simply vulnerable, needy, clingy and self-harming, with little or no focus on the fact that female BPDs are just as prone to raging, tantrums, gaslighting, infidelity, and all the other aggressive behaviors.

Point 3: My own BPD/NPDh was misdiagnosed as Bipolar II, largely because he refused treatment beyond three sessions (saying the therapy was "pointless" and that he just needed the pills). Frankly, I don't see how doctors can *really* give a BPD diagnosis without interviewing family, coworkers, and everyone who knows the pwBPD to get the *full picture*. BPDs are good liars and good ans masking their illness, hence why so many of us here have to put the letter "u" in front of "BPD"... .WE are the ones who live with these people 24/7 and witness the full spectrum of the disorder. NO doctor can be witness to that.

Thanks for an excellent post, Mob. 

[GlennT]

Here is what I personally experienced: I knew one person who was diagnosed as bipolar, one BPD, and one with paranoid schiz. The bipolar person would have extreme highs, leave family, and travel all over with extreme energy, delusions of grandeur, then crash and do nothing,  be clinically depressed, and committed suicide.He was not very concerned about baiting his hook to attract close loving relationships. It was like clockwork at certain times of the year. The BPD, unlike the bipolar would not have these predicted extremes in delusions, speed and crash. Only extreme idealization of others, mood swings and unpredicated detachment painting black etc... She was primarily concerned with baiting her hook for fake bonding, abandonment, all was riding on close interpersonal drama etc. and could have delusions, but both of them never to the extent of the schiz person, and that was a whole other ballgame.

[ex_bf_worried]

In my opinion bipolar and BPD can coexist. My exBPDgf had characteristics of all. She would have grand plans one minute the next she would crash. Be very depressed to the point where she can't get anything done. She would work really hard at getting a job, being promoted, only to destroy all her hard work; why you ask? Only she would know. She painted her entire family black as well as the few friends she had. Normally in the first few months of a friendship she would think this person is the best thing on the planet therapist included. Only to have paint them black when she realised that she cant get her way with them.

[PotentiallyKevin]

In my opinion bipolar and BPD can coexist. My exBPDgf had characteristics of all. She would have grand plans one minute the next she would crash. Be very depressed to the point where she can't get anything done. She would work really hard at getting a job, being promoted, only to destroy all her hard work; why you ask? Only she would know. She painted her entire family black as well as the few friends she had. Normally in the first few months of a friendship she would think this person is the best thing on the planet therapist included. Only to have paint them black when she realised that she cant get her way with them.

Sure, they can coexist, but it is not nearly as prevalent as the mental health system asserts... .

Also, in your post, there is nothing that overly suggests bipolar disorder, why are you so certain she had bipolar disorder? BPD fantasy world often resembles the bipolar delusions of grandeur, but at the core, it is very different. My BPD ex had elaborate fantasies, visions and aspirations, yet none of them were the result of a manic phase. When she didn't achieve these unattainable desires, she would get horribly depressed... .Mania vs underdeveloped emotions is the key to distinguishing the two.

Sorry if I am coming off negatively. Just put yourself in my shoes for a moment. I have bipolar disorder. The last thing I want is to be compared to someone who has BPD... .

[RowJimmy]

From one of the articles I found through this site, here are the 3 ways to distinguish Bipolar from BPD:

www.tinyurl.com/2uty6ba

1. People with BPD cycle much more quickly, often several times a day.

2. The moods in people with BPD are more dependent, either positively or negatively, on what's going on in their life at the moment. Anything that might smack of abandonment (however far fetched) is a major trigger.

3. In people with BPD, the mood swings are more distinct. Marsha M. Linehan, professor of psychology at the University of Washington, says that while people with bipolar disorder swing between all-¬encompassing periods of mania and major depression, the mood swings typical in BPD are more specific. She says, "You have fear going up and down, sadness going up and down, anger up and down, disgust up and down, and love up and down

#2 really stands out to me as to why ustbxBPDw (whew) diagnosis of Bipolar II is incorrect.  When she got depressed and half-heartedly attempted suicide, it was in response to finding out she didnt get the job she wanted and the depression only started 24 hours prior as far as I could tell.

Also, she tends to do the push/pull thing, be manipulative, split, project, invalidate etc etc.  I also know she had a very traumatic childhood, which indicates BPD more than bipolar, although its not dispositive.

Heres another good article:  www.tinyurl.com/dz79gu

[T2H]

I have to second Mobocracy on that - the above description sounds very much like it could be totally BPD, and very little of it suggests BiP (almost none definitively).

[goldenblunder]

My wife might have appeared to be bi-polar, but she was not.  It is BPD because it can be so readily triggered by the way I treated her or talked to her.  It wasn't a mood swing because of her brain chemistry.  She would go crazy because of some perceived slight or feeling of being abandoned, for the most part.

[ve01603]

Okay, I started to talk a bit about this in another thread, but I'd like to address it as it's own.  I've come to realize that I am a recovered borderline, and I'm diagnosed and treated for bipolar II.  Borderline and bipolar have a high comorbidity, according to all the literature I've read.

Bipolar gives you ups and downs you can't control.  It can be triggered by stress, yes, but it's not a personality disorder.  It's a brain disease where you can't control the amount of energy you have, basically.  This leads to highs, in which you feel you can rule the world-- sexual promiscuity, gambling, compulsive behaviors such as overspending, rages, irritability, all those can occur due to highs.  The lows produce depression, suicidal ideation, lethargy, irritability (again, just a different flavor) and general loss of interest (affect), sometimes to the point of dissociation and depersonalization.  Both highs and lows can produce psychosis, if they are extreme.

Borderline seems to be (from what I'm learning here, and thank you for that), an inability to control emotional responses, and a dysfunctional system of defense against pain.

From what I've read from some of these posts, I can't help but smell bipolar as well.  The two together are hell to live with, from my personal experience.  It makes you act and feel like different people at different times, and with rapid cycling bipolar (like I have) the shift can be very quick, like within a matter of quarter hour (for me).  Do any of you know if your BPs had biploar as well?  Particularly those who describe behaviors such as cheating and/or immediately hooking up with a new partner after a breakup.  That just sounds like a bipolar high mixed with borderline dysfunction to me.

Any thoughts?

Grim

Mine was bipolar as well.

[Lizzie]

My wife might have appeared to be bi-polar, but she was not.  It is BPD because it can be so readily triggered by the way I treated her or talked to her.  It wasn't a mood swing because of her brain chemistry.  She would go crazy because of some perceived slight or feeling of being abandoned, for the most part.

This is an important differentiation of bipolar from BPD. 

My ex was supposedly diagnosed as bipolar.  According to him he's been on just about every medication for bipolar out there with no positive results. 

When we met he told me his therapist had told him he'd been misdiagnosed (for 20 years   ) and that he actually ADD.  God I'm still so stupid sometimes, that made no sense and I didn't question it, but probably b/c he was on drugs for so many years it seemed plausible that they'd misdiagnosed him.  Over a few weeks, as we were dating and his symptoms got worse (big coincidence right) he went back to thinking he was bipolar, but not wanting to accept it b/c it scared him.  I later found out that was all lies and that he knew all along that he was bipolar.  The only problem being that I don't think he's bipolar whatsoever.  He claims to have had 1 manic episode in his 40 years.  Long story short he has all the symptoms of BPD, so much so that he could be the poster boy for the disorder. I really wonder if his therapist thinks he's BPD and is just giving him the bipolar label or if she's clueless. 

From my experience and what I know they are completely different disorders.  As someone pointed out, the prevalence of bipolar in BPDs is likely around the same percentage as the prevalence in nonBPDs.  I haven't come across anything saying it's statistically higher, just that it's misdiagnosed or people are given the bipolar dx for insurance purposes.

[swmdBPbfofuBPDgf]

Troops, the two are really quite different, and though it is quite possible for a person to have traits of both, BPD  has traits that are extremely distinct and unique to the illness itself, traits like splitting, that are just not seen too many places...

First off, one is a mood disorder  and the other is an emotional regulation disorder... mood and emotions are not the same thing.

My mood is my state of mind , my emotions are how my mind reacts... .Untreated, BD is hell on wheels to live with for the carrier, there are few if any high functioning undiagnosed Bipolars out there, and it is pretty evident  that something is amiss with the person for the consistent cycling of mania and depression are near impossible for an intimate to  not notice and even harder for the afflicted  to hide and conceal , whereas BPD,  even when quite active, is nearly impossible to detect for there are few if any intimates, and if there is one, they are the one catching all the behaviors full tilt... .its an attachment disorder, BPDs don't have those extreme attachments in day to day life outside the nest, ... .so keeping their emotions regulated and under wraps is a great deal easier... .One can bluff a mania by saying they are just full of life, but until you have experienced someone in the full throws of a depression, lets just say there is no concealing that when its on

We Bipolars are some of the most emotionally detached people in society, for whatever trauma set our disorder in motion, our brain is determined to keep us in an altered state of mind at all times... .When I am manic, I may feel euphoric, but that is a mood, not an emotion... the whole idea of mania is to be in such an elevated state that one can not feel his own feelings, and certainly not those of those around him...

Serotonin depleted, we cycle on down out of mania in to depressions... .the trip can be smooth and gradual, or in cases of type 1 rapid cycling, it can be akin to a free fall with a bone crushing crash landing depression awaiting...

There is no hiding this from anybody and it is not directed at or triggered by any one person... .it is brain chemistry running amuck, and the extremes of the poles, hence BIpolarity, make sustaining any kind of consistency in relationships and the work place extremely difficult... .We want help badly... .I went to my first T at age 20 for I knew something wasn't right, and was finally diagnosed correctly at 37, and frankly, i cried out of joy when I was diagnosed for finally there was an explanation for this extremely cyclical behavior that I just could not get my head around.my whole life

What complicates the diagnosis problem for either disorder is the degree of self-medication involved in one's misguided attempts to be able to manage the extreme and unexplainable mood  swings and general dysfunctionallity that comes with living with Bipolar and BPD... .Many here are quick to jump on the therapeutic and Psychiatric community for their failings to diagnose us correctly and accurately, but I am apt to lay way more blame at the feet of  AA then I would at the Mental Health Community.

And lets be frank here, alcoholism  and addiction are prevalent in both disorders and people live's hit bottom when our material lives hit bottom, we are unemployable and untrustworthy to such a point that even we see it and realize we have to change significantly, but by this point our self-medicating remedy has become its very own problem itself, and a big one at that, and it takes all one has to even have a chance of living a sober life, let alone peeling off the many layers of defenses we have constructed to subjugate that pain... Someone early in sobriety (and I mean a couple of years) would be  putting him/her self at great risk if they were to prematurely try to  get at the core wound that drove us to drink and use to such extents... .The Mental Health Community's primary and immediate concern is not  the quality of the patients life. It is in making sure that he has a future life, and all the meds are designed to do is hopefully buy some time to allow the patient to stabilize long enough such that he can eventually do the tough therapeutic work necessary to  keep these disorders in check

AA treats that core wound in us all as some spiritual malady... .and though I and many of my peers in Recovery do eventually seek outside help, the poor T is getting a veritable basket case upon arrival, a basket case that has been lying cheating and stealing their whole lives to keep people away from their pains. Why anyone would think that would miraculously end when we walk into the office of a complete stranger is befuddling at best

Nobody tells their T the whole truth... .and even the most honest amongst us, we don't even know the whole truth, for the whole truth resides partially well within us and also in the effects our behavior has had on those closest to us, and no disordered person who is trying to save his own butt in the beginning is going to subject themselves to that added level of scrutiny for too long, and nor will the SO of the disordered person, for once in that little room, all that finger pointing ceases and we are forced to examine our roles in this dysfunction, putting even more stress in to the healing dynamic...

Re BPD... .staggering low chance of getting them even  in to a Ts office, let alone allowing the SO to come too, for otherwise, the T never has a chance of hearing the whole story, and if knowledgable about this disorder, which is no guarantee, make the proper assessment.

Lets not forget, those who gravitate toward becoming T's have likely overcome some serious disorder/abuse/addiction issues themselves, so they as are we are really learning on the go themselves... .20 years ago, virtually none of this was even close to being widely known, let alone understood... .I was diagnosed BD in 2002... .was sent over to the brand new multi-million dollar super snazzy new Mood Disorders clinic at UCLA... .I was very manic when I got there, they put me on a heavy dose of a strong Anti-mania medication that was looking to be the solution for high flyers like myself... since that time, Lilly has paid out in the Billions in class action suit settlements for the side effects of this med... .obesity, strokes, i gained 20 lbs the first month, and I told the doc thats just the first 20, i would have eaten the steering wheel if i could have... .terrible medication... terrible

But since 2002  when I got in the system, not one single new medication of significance has come through trials and found to have a significant impact at mitigating the extremes of BD, not one... .and the ones they still use today, have been around for a long time and were not originally designed to treat BD in the first place... Lithium, the benchmark med for BD, is a naturally occurring substance they just got lucky that it works as a stabilizer in some cases.

The moral of the story is we as a society are in just the infantile stages of dealing with chemical imbalances in the brain, and the behaviors associated with them... .what this has spawned is an enormously vibrant and rapidly growing cottage industry, of which this site is a part of... .From Scientists to Doctors to therapists and patients, its impossible to make the argument that these people are in it for the money or some ulterior motive... .my experience is from the top down, these are some of the hardest working most caring people I have ever encountered, whose primary goal in entering the mental health field was to help sick people get better, and that includes Big Pharma... nobody invents a medication with profit margin and share holder return in mind, they work endless hours in the lab because they are caring compassionate problem solvers who have been blessed with the skills necessary to make a profound difference in peoples welfare, and if successful, more power to them and may they make all  the money they can count, for if the cure  for BD BPD and Alcoholism was  discovered tomorrow, I would give everything I have and more for that remedy

But the tough reality is that is generations away... .there are still no objective tests one can administer that can determine whether or not someone has BP, or BPD, or Alcoholism, or Anxiety, which highly calls in to question the whole disorder/disease labeling system, but we will leave that for another thread... .Everybody has a little of all of this in them, when does being moody cross the line in to being a Mood disorder and who gets to determine that... .anyway, sorry for rambling and that likely cleared up little... peace

[blackandwhite]

 

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