Judge agreed with me but didn't do anything

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

After 5 hrs of testimony the judge basically said he agreed something was wrong but wasn't going to change it. He told S10's mom she had to get her act together and document it by next hearing, or then he'd make a change. No idea when next hearing is. Didn't talk about it. Judge even said he agreed I had legitimate concerns and given the situation it was appropriate that I'd filed a case. 

What do you do when the judge basically says dad's right, mom's doing things wrong here, but I'm letting her off the hook?

[Waddams]

After 5 hrs of testimony the judge basically said he agreed something was wrong but wasn't going to change it. He told S10's mom she had to get her act together and document it by next hearing, or then he'd make a change. No idea when next hearing is. Didn't talk about it. Judge even said he agreed I had legitimate concerns and given the situation it was appropriate that I'd filed a case. 

What do you do when the judge basically says dad's right, mom's doing things wrong here, but I'm letting her off the hook?

[livednlearned]

Your lawyer should be drafting what the judge said, and then have you look it over. Then share it with her lawyer and your ex.

In that doc, there should be something like "Parties will bring the case before the judge to determine if BPDx has created structure for S10.

The judge is doing exactly what your L said. He's giving her rope. More chances, time to turn things around, etc. It's why your L was saying no need to kitchen sink things right now, is my guess.

Even when you have a watertight case, judges give them second, third, fourth chances.

I don't think I have PTSD from N/BPDx anymore. I think it's from dealing with courts. 

[Waddams]

I don't know whose gonna draft what. I'm out of money, credit, etc. Thinking of dismissing and saying f' it. What's the point of fighting for this crap when the damn judge is just gonna say yeah big problem, filing was right solution for dad, but I'm gonna let her get away with it anyway? All I've done is pissed away another $10,000.

This time lawyer was amazed he didn't do anything.  She left talking about looking forward to his reelection campaign because this would be great ammo for his opponent.  She's super pissed.

I need to switch gears onto something else in life. Time to move on.

[ForeverDad]

 :'(  It hurts but you'll survive it.  Virtually everyone here has faced baby-step courts that are still expecting the parents to figure it out, work together and settle.

First, did the issue about home schooling and return to school get resolved?  Is she at least ordered to get him into school by the time the school year starts in a month or so?  Will it be in your district?

Second, regarding finances, perhaps you can economize.  Some here decided to go pro se and represent themselves when they ran out of money and maxed debt.  What they did to reduce the billings was to move the lawyer from first chair to second chair, consulting the lawyer only periodically to review filings and ways to make legal arguments.  However, besides the obvious drawback of feeling like you're crossing the ocean in a rowboat during a hurricane, there's another.  If you save money, the risk is that you could again be assessed fees for her legal/lawyer fees.  It would be a shame for you to economize and the court expect you to hand those savings over to her.  If you did reduce your expenses it might be wise to use those savings to reduce debt rather than save it to the side and then court to think it is excess.

[Waddams]

Re:school - judge isn't making her put him back in school.  How does it make sense to say that this home school farse is wrong, she's screwing up big, but let her keep going on? He knew she's continuing her college clases, etc.

About finances, I make a good wage but honestly think I need to find my way into something more than good. Not just for court issues.  But I do intend to keep debt as low as I can. I'll likely end up cash poor and be using credit cards 'til something shakes loose.

[livednlearned]

Re:school - judge isn't making her put him back in school.  How does it make sense to say that this home school farse is wrong, she's screwing up big, but let her keep going on? He knew she's continuing her college clases, etc.

Two things had to happen in my case before the court sat up and paid attention. One was N/BPDx threatening our parenting coordinator, and the other was N/BPDx not complying with the judge's orders. I swear the court cares more about someone crossing its own people than it does anything else.

I don't think judges want to get involved in family business. Not really -- they are so bleeping conservative in their ruling.

[Matt]

Let me see if I understand... .

You said - and the judge said you're right - that home-schooling isn't working well for S10, so he should be in a real school.

You said - and the judge agreed - that S10 needs more structure and help with schoolwork, and you can provide that, and his mom can't.

So... .if Mom continues to do what she's doing, and in a few months - maybe three or six? - you can file another motion, pretty much the same - maybe you can even draft it yourself - saying, "Nothing has changed and the results continue to be bad, so please let me put S10 in school, and have primary custody, so things can be better for him." - and the judge essentially said that's what you should do - give it a little longer... .?

Did your lawyer give you any options at all?

Is there another court you could go to, or an option to appeal?

Could you file such a motion right away, asking for a court date, say, 30 days from now?  Not saying you should, only wondering if your lawyer can tell you what the options are.

I can certainly understand that you're worn down, emotionally and financially, by all this.  I think it's most likely that it will pay off, and you'll be glad you stayed the course.

[livednlearned]

So... .if Mom continues to do what she's doing, and in a few months - maybe three or six? - you can file another motion, pretty much the same - maybe you can even draft it yourself - saying, "Nothing has changed and the results continue to be bad, so please let me put S10 in school, and have primary custody, so things can be better for him." - and the judge essentially said that's what you should do - give it a little longer... .?

I don't think you lost. I think this is just normal glacial court stuff. The way it works is that your L will take what the judge said and put it into numbered legal paragraphs. So something like:

1. The plaintiff believes that homeschooling is not structured enough for the minor child and that he is falling behind.

2. The minor child has a dual-diagnosis.

3. The minor child currently spends majority time with his mother, who believes in "unschooling."

4. Plaintiff has documented this that and the other thing to support his concerns, and presented this stuff in court.

5. The judge heard all this stuff.

6. The plaintiff said the minor child is doing great, and doesn't need to be in school.

Then, in the findings of law section, your lawyer might write:

1. That the judge agrees that homeschooling is not working for the minor child, and that he should be in a real school.

2. That the court agree that structure will help the minor child function at grade level.

3. That the court believes the plaintiff must document how she is creating structure for the minor child, and show that he is able to achieve within range for his age and abilities.

4. The court finds that the defendant has to document how she is making things better for the minor child during the next school year that meet the legal requirements for homeschooling in this state (or whatever -- in my state, there's some stuff you have to do for homeschooling to be legit).

Or something like that.

Basically, your lawyer needs to take what the judge said, and give it some backbone. Then, she gives it to the other L, who gives it to your ex. If your ex is like mine, she won't read closely. She thinks the judge agreed with how she's doing things. The legal document that gets put together is probably something she won't read carefully, and definitely not strategically.

Then, when the other L says, we signed it, it looks good, the two Ls then go to court to have the thing entered. Sometimes people will go to that hearing and say, "Look, you didn't give anything concrete about what the mom has to do, so we think give it six months, have the kid tested, documented everything that the child does all day."

Or, if you didn't do that, but added something with teeth in the order, and everyone thinks it's ok and no one objects, then the judge signs it and that's your order.

During my last hearing, the judge said N/BPDx had to do three things within 30 days. He also said that visitation could resume. But he didn't give a date. When my L went to write up the order, she didn't include a date either, on purpose. It just said that the judge was letting visitation resume. N/BPDx read what my L wrote, and signed it. He then showed up in court when the order was entered and signed by the judge. Then he did nothing, not once did he try to arrange visitation. He was expecting me to do everything.

Then N/BPDx filed a motion for contempt against me saying I was preventing visitation.

My L said the judge will look at the last order and see that there is no date for visitation to resume. I won't be found in contempt of court because there is no date, and N/BPDx never sent any email to arrange for visitation to resume.

So even though the hearing didn't go in my favor, as far as the legal sausage that got made after the hearing, things worked out well. We didn't get what we wanted in the hearing to show cause, but my L let things stand as very watered down in the order, and N/BPDx agreed to it, so that's what the judge is going to refer to. 

I hope that makes sense. Basically, you need to pay attention to the document your L is about to write up. Make sure she is writing it up and not the other L. And when you take a look at it, see if there are places to add some backbone. The other L isn't going to care if your ex doesn't care, which she probably won't.

That way, when you go back in 3 or 6 or 12 months, you have something that lines up strategically in your favor. The judge is going to see that the parties agreed that mom had to document.

This is why it's so critical to have consequences to everything, even if you "lose."

[Matt]

So... .if Mom continues to do what she's doing, and in a few months - maybe three or six? - you can file another motion, pretty much the same - maybe you can even draft it yourself - saying, "Nothing has changed and the results continue to be bad, so please let me put S10 in school, and have primary custody, so things can be better for him." - and the judge essentially said that's what you should do - give it a little longer... .?

I don't think you lost. I think this is just normal glacial court stuff. The way it works is that your L will take what the judge said and put it into numbered legal paragraphs. So something like:

1. The plaintiff believes that homeschooling is not structured enough for the minor child and that he is falling behind.

2. The minor child has a dual-diagnosis.

3. The minor child currently spends majority time with his mother, who believes in "unschooling."

4. Plaintiff has documented this that and the other thing to support his concerns, and presented this stuff in court.

5. The judge heard all this stuff.

6. The plaintiff said the minor child is doing great, and doesn't need to be in school.

Then, in the findings of law section, your lawyer might write:

1. That the judge agrees that homeschooling is not working for the minor child, and that he should be in a real school.

2. That the court agree that structure will help the minor child function at grade level.

3. That the court believes the plaintiff must document how she is creating structure for the minor child, and show that he is able to achieve within range for his age and abilities.

4. The court finds that the defendant has to document how she is making things better for the minor child during the next school year that meet the legal requirements for homeschooling in this state (or whatever -- in my state, there's some stuff you have to do for homeschooling to be legit).

Or something like that.

Basically, your lawyer needs to take what the judge said, and give it some backbone. Then, she gives it to the other L, who gives it to your ex. If your ex is like mine, she won't read closely. She thinks the judge agreed with how she's doing things. The legal document that gets put together is probably something she won't read carefully, and definitely not strategically.

Then, when the other L says, we signed it, it looks good, the two Ls then go to court to have the thing entered. Sometimes people will go to that hearing and say, "Look, you didn't give anything concrete about what the mom has to do, so we think give it six months, have the kid tested, documented everything that the child does all day."

Or, if you didn't do that, but added something with teeth in the order, and everyone thinks it's ok and no one objects, then the judge signs it and that's your order.

During my last hearing, the judge said N/BPDx had to do three things within 30 days. He also said that visitation could resume. But he didn't give a date. When my L went to write up the order, she didn't include a date either, on purpose. It just said that the judge was letting visitation resume. N/BPDx read what my L wrote, and signed it. He then showed up in court when the order was entered and signed by the judge. Then he did nothing, not once did he try to arrange visitation. He was expecting me to do everything.

Then N/BPDx filed a motion for contempt against me saying I was preventing visitation.

My L said the judge will look at the last order and see that there is no date for visitation to resume. I won't be found in contempt of court because there is no date, and N/BPDx never sent any email to arrange for visitation to resume.

So even though the hearing didn't go in my favor, as far as the legal sausage that got made after the hearing, things worked out well. We didn't get what we wanted in the hearing to show cause, but my L let things stand as very watered down in the order, and N/BPDx agreed to it, so that's what the judge is going to refer to. 

I hope that makes sense. Basically, you need to pay attention to the document your L is about to write up. Make sure she is writing it up and not the other L. And when you take a look at it, see if there are places to add some backbone. The other L isn't going to care if your ex doesn't care, which she probably won't.

That way, when you go back in 3 or 6 or 12 months, you have something that lines up strategically in your favor. The judge is going to see that the parties agreed that mom had to document.

This is why it's so critical to have consequences to everything, even if you "lose."

This sounds very good... .if your lawyer thinks as strategically as LnL does!

You probably can't be passive though, and you can't assume - unless you have good experience with her - that your lawyer is going to take this approach.  Make sure she's going to get this done, and when, and make sure you will see and check what she writes up before anybody else does.

In my limited experience, attorneys who know the law and speak well are very common, but attorneys who think strategically and stay focused on their clients' objectives are not so common.  That puts the burden on us (the clients) to manage them carefully.

[livednlearned]

In my limited experience, attorneys who know the law and speak well are very common, but attorneys who think strategically and stay focused on their clients' objectives are not so common.  That puts the burden on us (the clients) to manage them carefully.

I think this is really true! My L is good, but I learned early (right after mediation) that I needed to understand what was going on. It's one thing to have a good case, it's another to understand how things actually work. Once you figure out how things work, you can think strategically with your L, instead of them just giving you counsel.

[Waddams]

I'm leaning towards thinking I'd prefer the order have as little specific detail in it as possible for uPDxw to follow.  Leave it up to her to figure it out on her own, and the judge to have as much discretion as possible.  Judge is on vacation this week, so no hurry.  He won't be around to review orders until next week anyway.

I think I like something like this:

-After hearing evidence, the Court finds that minor child's home schooling has been insufficient to meet the child's needs.  

-Mother is instructed to improve her home schooling performance.

-Case will be left open for now.

-Judge will review at a date to be determined.  If mother has not adequately addressed deficiencies in minor child's home schooling situation to the Judge's satisfaction, the Judge indicated in the last hearing he may order a change in custody.  It is mother's choice to home school, therefore mother is solely responsible for determining necessary home schooling improvements and needs, including all related monetary expenses.

-S10 is to continue to be cared for at Waddam's house when uPDxw has class in evenings and on weekends or has evening and weekend job activities as this is the precedent the child has become accustomed to over the last 2 years.  

-Current custody and child support orders shall remain in effect for now.

-uPDxw is to provide full financial documentation to Waddams within 30 days of this order as she has not yet done so (there are serious issues with her financial affidavit - I think I'm gonna end up having to crawl her a$$ about it).

Beyond that, I don't think I want to put anything in the orders that governs what uPDxw is supposed to do.  She's a grown up, she's supposed to be able to figure it out without a court telling her.  

In the mean time, I need to get my financial feet back under me.  Which is extremely difficult right now because of issues unrelated to the case.  My SO has recently had some major back/health issues and has had an extended period of not being able to work.  She's applied for a bunch of state aid, but the checks aren't coming yet.  Combined with having to pay my L for all this, pay uPDxw's L another $2500, and SO's issues, I'm broke, and expenses are higher than income.

SO just got a real estate license, and has started with a broker.  Her prior types of work keeps her from a desk 8 hours a day, or standing at a retail position, etc. which her doctor had told her would further aggravate her back problems.  SO had worked full time, then the back issues started.  She dropped to part time, but got a second part time job as well.  Then pushed too hard because she knew I was being hammered financially and wanted to help as much as she could and managed to put herself in bed for the better part of 2 weeks.

Her XH hasn't paid CS in 11 months, or even contributed to helping with kid's other expenses in years.  She's got a gazillion expenses for marching band, chorus, etc. for her 4 kids to pay as school is starting, plus her own car bills/insurance etc.  And she's as broke as I am from not being able to work.  She needs to be able to pay for advertising to get real estate leads coming in, but has no cash to really start.  And she's been trying to go in to the part time jobs some since the back stuff has improved some, but it's slow and she can't put in the hours she was before.

I did take her to my tax guy, he figured out she was doing some things wrong on her taxes, and has managed to file a bunch of stuff for her that will net her well over $30,000 in amended returns (she was doing her kids wrong and wasn't getting the EITC and child tax credits she was entitled to), but we're waiting for the checks from the IRS and state revenue service.  It's likely to be another 4-6 weeks before any of that relief starts showing up.

So we're waiting for the aid/returns to come in, but for the moment are just kind of screwed monetarily.  SO's and her kid's cell phones have been on my account, I've been paying all the bills since her back went out, and I'm out of money.  I can't afford it.  SO needs her phone for trying to start real estate, the kids need them to let us know when their home from school, or staying after, etc.  They need internet because so much of their school homework is given out on it now, and again, SO needs it for real estate.  It really is real technical stuff needs for them, and I can't pay for a dime of it right now.  I'm struggling big time just to feed everyone a diet of ramen noodles.  But if I don't pay for it, nobody eats.  SO can't really start her real estate career without phone/internet at home, she'd stay stuck money wise if I turned off internet and extra phones I can't afford.

And I'll say this, SO is trying as hard as she can.  Her doc told her office jobs, retail jobs, etc. like she's been doing are not going to mix well with her back.  So she went and got licensed as a realtor.  The market here is picking up, it's a good time to get into it, and it also will mesh well with what she needs lifestyle wise to take care of her back and heal.  She's not purposely trying to leave me hanging.  It just worked out that way anyway.  I've had a time of hardship hit, and not only has she not been able to carry the previously load she was helping with, not only has she been able to step up and help more, but she's even completely fallen apart and it's all fallen on me.  I don't blame her, she didn't try to pinch all her back nerves, develop a stenosis in her lower back, and aggravate old car accident injuries.  But reality is I've got too much on me at the moment, I just can't carry all this, something's got to give, and if it isn't something else, it's going to be me.  It feels like it already is me breaking.  

I don't know what to do.  No matter what else happens, somebody in my house gets screwed now.

[ForeverDad]

Can you tell the lawyer, maybe even put it in the order, that you can't pay the $$$ all at once, that you'll pay it in installments, maybe over 6 months?  Hey, if you don't have it, you don't have it.  Likely the judge didn't say when to have it paid, did he?  Lawyer can wait for it, just make sure it doesn't upset the judge or violate the order.

[Matt]

Why are you paying the other party's lawyer?

[livednlearned]

My ex just didn't pay when he was ordered to cover my legal fees. You could theoretically not pay until your ex filed a motion for contempt. You can even go to the hearing, explain why you didn't pay, and then explain that you want to pay in installments if that's ok.

And the judge will probably say ok.

It's family court. 

[Matt]

My ex just didn't pay when he was ordered to cover my legal fees. You could theoretically not pay until your ex filed a motion for contempt. You can even go to the hearing, explain why you didn't pay, and then explain that you want to pay in installments if that's ok.

And the judge will probably say ok.

It's family court.  

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking.  I'd give low priority to paying the other party's attorney until the case was completely over (and probably even then).

Look for things the other side is doing, that prolong the case and add to legal costs.  You might be able to then argue that they should pay your legal costs, and the most common outcome is that both parties pay their own.

[livednlearned]

Beyond that, I don't think I want to put anything in the orders that governs what uPDxw is supposed to do.  She's a grown up, she's supposed to be able to figure it out without a court telling her.  

Spelling it out in the order isn't about telling a grown up what she's supposed to do. It's creating the terms and conditions of a contract. It's about tightening things up so you have a real document, something you can reference in front of the judge and say, "It says here, and you signed it, and I signed it, and she signed it. So let's not break the contract."

If you leave things wide open for the judge, I think you're going to be back here at square one. Judges tend to water things down as much as possible. He won't remember you. You'll just be one more parent who can't work things out with another parent.  

Things started to work well for me once I began working proactively at every step of the legal process -- that means taking every advantage possible and setting things up strategically or adding consequences so there is no "hoping" that the judge will do this or that. I thought about the predictable part of N/BPDx and used that to my advantage. He can't stick to agreements, he can't stay sober, he has no regard for authority, judge included.

It's not a fair game, Waddams. If you treat it like it's fair, or intelligent, or makes any sense, court will steamroller right over you. 

[Waddams]

Regarding the attorney's fees I had to pay - it was before the last hearing.  Her attorney claimed she was basically indigent and my state has a law that allows opposing parties to pay some in those cases.  It's really meant for like when some guy leaves his wife of 30 years, all assets are in his name, etc.  It's not meant for a situation like mine, but the law is vague enough that the Judge can do what he wants.

I was ordered on July 8th to pay $2500 into the court registry by July 11th.  It was dispersed to her attorney on July 14th.

This for a woman that is choosing not to work, we've been divorced 5 years, she has a degree, and prior HR experience in jobs making $40k+ a year.  She's falsified her financial affidavit as well, I'm positive of it.

The only thing you can really do is suck it up. 

[Matt]

Did your lawyer give you any advice about paying the other side's legal fees?  Or bringing to light the false financial information?

And what can you do to manage your stress - counseling, meditation, exercise, etc... .?

[Waddams]

Did your lawyer give you any advice about paying the other side's legal fees?  Or bringing to light the false financial information?

L said once the order was issued to comply with it.  As the false financial information, we need to get uPDxw to provide full financial disclosure, which in the last court go-rounds has been a big pain in the a$$.  Motion's to Compel to make her comply with discovery, etc.  I had hoped to avoid the hassle this time.  Oh well.

And what can you do to manage your stress - counseling, meditation, exercise, etc... .?

I see a T.  And have a neighbor that has turned into a quite a buddy across the street.  Lots of supportive friends. 

Home is always very loud and chaotic.  It's just life with lots of kids in the house.  Neighbor's house has turned into my escape plan when I need it.  I didn't re-up my gym plan because I've been paying lawyers, but there are a lot of great parks and trails nearby.  I hit those a lot.  And I'm going on day hikes at least once a month.

[Matt]

Depositions to catch her in lies?

Can you file a motion for contempt now, and bring evidence that she is lying?

Your lawyer doesn't seem to be giving you good options.  Is she focused on your case?

[ForeverDad]

Her attorney claimed she was basically indigent and my state has a law that allows opposing parties to pay some in those cases.  It's really meant for like when some guy leaves his wife of 30 years, all assets are in his name, etc.  It's not meant for a situation like mine, but the law is vague enough that the Judge can do what he wants.

Would it be to your advantage or disadvantage for the order to state (1) Ex claimed she was indigent, etc so you're ordered to pay some of her legal fees and (2) she is ordered to provide financials since documentation has been provided yet?  Claims of poverty vs documentation otherwise?  However if you suspect she will fake her IRS taxes, then try to get what she actually filed... .

IRS will mail what was actually filed, though probably just to her address.

[Waddams]

L already deposed uPDxw.  L was very focused on case as well.  Judge is just being VERY VERY conservative.  He seems relucant to make changes

And even so, at the hearing, Judge basically said I proved my case, and uPDxw didn't.  He outright told her if she acts the way she does, she should be surprised to get sued, that I had a legitimate concern, my filing was legitimate, etc.  In short, he agreed with me.  We really won our argument and the court fight.  She lost.  The judge really admonished her after both sides rested.  He just flat told her she was in the wrong.

He just decided to give her another chance before acting.  She's going to take it as "I can get away with anything.  They just aren't going to do anything."  And as a result my S10 will continue to get educated.  The situation will get worse, and make it harder to fix later.

Would it be to your advantage or disadvantage for the order to state (1) Ex claimed she was indigent, etc so you're ordered to pay some of her legal fees and (2) she is ordered to provide financials since documentation has been provided yet.  However if you suspect she will fake her IRS taxes, then try to get what she actually filed... .

Yeah, my tax guy worked for the IRS for 20 years.  I need to get her complete 1040 filings AND all her other financial records.  She'll know what I'm after and she'll try to get out of having to cough it up.

[AlonelyOne]

"She's falsified her financial affidavit as well, I'm positive of it."

Question, do both parties receive access to the financial affidavit info?

For example, my wife has put in for child and spousal support.  Will my lawyer receive access to her claimed income? As I don't trust her worth a dime to report it accurately.