Wife isn't accountable and I don't enforce boundaries

[ziasquinn3000]

Hi All. First post here so it will be long! I have frequented reddit's BPDlovedones subreddit in the past but stopped because it's not very constructive and more of a venting only place so I tried looking for an alternate tonight, and this forum seems really constructive!

A quick summary of our relationship. We met, got married in a year and have been married 2 years now. My wife has been in therapy for 7 years. The last 6 months she has been in a DBT program. Alongside her DBT we tried couple's therapy about 4 months ago, she stopped attending about 2 months in because she said she was incompatible with the therapist (7 years of therapy, she knows what works and doesn't work for her). I have continued to see the therapist on my own, as my therapist suggested my wife is not ready for couple's yet. I have also been a codependent in the past and have made very large strides in bettering myself with it.

We went through a big breakup about 9 months ago that caused me to end it because my boundaries were being battered, she had stopped any therapy and was not taking her meds, sleeping in bed 16 hours a day. She attempted suicide during that time and we got back together with the premise of sink or swim, our relationship has to change and I did not force her to do anything, she wanted to do DBT herself and she said it's the only way she can improve so she wanted to do it. We have both been working incredibly hard and have had success in our own ways. However about a month ago my wife didn't feel I was putting the same amount of effort as her into the relationship which almost caused a breakup, but I ponied up, I recognized she was right because I was shutdown from all of the emotional and physical abuse the past several months. I really tried bettering myself, being more patient, using similar skills that she uses with DBT and not hold anything in the past against her and to only learn from it. This however does not mean during this time, she still emotionally abused me, manipulated me and has tried humiliating tactics (she almost ran down the hotel hall naked after me while we were at a conference for my work) I have met with her DBT therapist a couple times and learned a lot as well. From that month ago, we devised action plans, accountability plans, family meetings and etc. The biggest issue my wife faces from mine and my therapist's perspective is accountability. My biggest issue is enforcing strong boundaries, that I give too many chances when I set my boundaries and do not simply enact them. We have been in a cycle for the past few months of a few days of good, me not enforcing my boundary and her not being accountable for it. So, with that in mind... .

A week ago, things had been pretty great the prior week to that day, communication, mutual respect, etc. Eventually my wife woke up in the middle of the night while I was still on the computer, saw a message I had sent to my friend and asked me what it was. She didn't respect me not wanting to say but I eventually told her. It was about an article I read that impeding someone from moving is considered kidnapping (my wife has done this a lot, not letting me leave the room and I had no idea that was "kidnapping" and that you can use self defense to escape. She got triggered by this and latched onto the idea I would hit her (I have never laid a finger on her, she has hit me 3 times in the relationship, the last time was several months ago a couple months into her DBT and I met with her therapist and we worked through this not being an issue again) I calmly tried to talk with her, validate her and reassure her, but then she finally said "who are the cops going to believe anyways? it doesn't matter what I do to you" when she said this i immediately said that is toxic behavior and I won't tolerate it. I told her I was going to the bathroom to give us some space for 10-15 minutes (here's my issue with me not instantly enforcing my boundaries, I had to explain myself) She of course followed, thus trapping me, eventually let me out as I said I needed to get a hotel, she tried flipping the narrative on me saying she feels unsafe and I need to leave, I tried getting a hotel on the computer but she unplugged my computer twice, she tried to take my phone (I started recording while I was looking at hotels on the computer, just in case, I recognize this wasn't a good move, I should've just left immediately) Eventually I just got up to leave, she said I better not take the car because she has work (we only have a car and a motorcycle, I always use the motorcycle for work, it was 2am so I didn't want to take my motorcycle and she could just uber) I finally submitted after she said she doesn't care what happens just don't take the car, when I told her it's unsafe.

Next day, she says she is leaving for a while when I texted her if she wanted to have a family meeting tonight about last night. I respected what she wanted and said it's fine, I am here to talk when you are ready. Later that day she got upset at me that I talked to her mother (her mom is apart of my support system) She said to talk to her not her mom so I did which caused an argument because I said I almost wrecked last night (true, thankfully no oncoming cars) she briefly acknowledged it but I said I felt her only saying that was putting the minimum amount of effort into caring since she didn't ask what happened. and she said "I am sick of you tbh" and that's when she went back to that I do not put effort into our relationship. that she wants to end things, that if I care about her I have to prove it by "fighting for her" etc. etc. This was an argument on both sides. I was able to keep composure and use skills for about 50% of it. I did make it clear to her that I want to work this out in couple's therapy and only move forward from this, as from what I learned from her DBT therapist, that I can't focus on the past issues and should only take it to talk about the future.

The next day I had my therapy appointment and me and my therapist agreed I need to keep it professional during this process of her figuring out what she wants to do. During this process she asked what we're going to do, what she is going to do and what I am going to do. I told her to the last of my knowledge that she does not want a "we". I told her anything to talk about in a relationship needs to only be in couple's therapy for me. I invited her to the session that was coming up (I set the appointment up a week before this whole thing) she accepted but then changed her mind and said there isn't anything to salvage in this relationship. I kept the dialogue only on "i'll only talk about this in therapy" and I told her when she changes her mind, I will gladly go to a therapy she sets up.

The latest is she came to get stuff so I stepped out of the house. She messaged me asking if I wanted a proper goodbye. I told her my therapist recommended any contact like that should only be in a professional setting, therapy. She said ok she can accept that and I can setup an appointment by X, Y or Z time/date. I told her no, because she cancelled on me last time that she has to set it up. So she said "hm. I guess we won't be talking then" and then proceeded to tell me "you know I'm the same person you married. I would do anything to hear about how you're doing. I would like this to be friendly, etc. etc." at that point I did not reply to her and nothing has been said between us because she said "hm. I guess we won't be talking then."

I am trying my hardest to be professional and respectful while also making sure to give her the reminders that I still want to work through this, that I still love her and care about her. I know she has to want it and I know she has to get there of her own accord. But I guess I'm just looking for suggestions in general. Aside from time and patience I'm not sure what to do. She seems to be one foot in and one foot out. There's so many more minute details to this, for example today she posted on Instagram then immediately blocked me so I could not see what it was. Then also today she posted on my fetish website that she knows I frequent and I saw her post on the front page (she hasn't posted on it for a year, because she knew it was unhealthy for her the way she was going about it, and because it's only my fetish).

My plan is I upped my therapy sessions to twice a week during this trial. I am trying to practice radical acceptance. To keep respecting her and being patient but also respecting myself and only talking to her when she reaches out and keeps her cool. Is there something else I should be doing? Being accepting of this situation is so difficult because there is no solid answer of what "the plans are for us" she already moved fully into a new place, she bought a car, but she was wishy washy on the divorce. As far as I know she has no new FP source and I feel she is just too uncomfortable with me setting these boundaries and actually acting on them for once. Is there a way I should react if she reaches out again and tries to calmly talk about what is going on or should I refer to couple's therapy again? It's hard for me to decide to be too encouraging because of all the mean things she has said. Also, can I reach out to the mom for support still or do I have to respect her wishes of not talking to her mother?

This is a relationship I want to maintain. I have discussed this with my therapist. I value my wife, all the good and bad that comes with her. I truly appreciate what I have been able to find in life with her and how we can support each other and prop each other up, usually (again, we've both worked incredibly hard since she started DBT!). I took the first step in ending this cycle by enforcing the strong boundary, she took the second step by moving out. I know she has to live on her own for a while and it's what I want her to do and then we can start dating in a few months if we're up to it and I am so proud she was able to do that, even if it was not civily. I am definitely not proud of the symptoms she is not in control of during this time tho .

Sorry for the length and probably in-coherency! Please ask for any additional info and I will be glad to answer.

TL:DR I have boundary issues and am still learning a lot about being a supportive person to someone with BPD and finally did a 180 and enforced strong boundaries making wife go to extremes to exert control. Wife has accountability issues, is wishy washy but at the same time adamant about us being over "she's not sure if we can make it... .not sure if it's worth it" and is trying to try every way to manipulate me, do a power play, or try to get a rise out of me to enact her dominance back into the relationship. Wife has moved out a week ago, got her own place and car and we have not seen each other since a week ago. I am not talking to her except by being punctual and only agreeing to talk about anything in-depth inside a therapists office.

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[pearlsw]

Hi ziasquinn3000,

I am so sorry that you have so many painful and confusing things going on all at once!

Glad to have you here with us though!

There is a lot here to discuss, and I hope others will come by and touch on various issues that your post raises!

I think I will just hone in on one point that stuck out for me. So she has asked that you not contact her mother? But in the past her mother has been a source of support for you with the relationship? You may or may not be on the verge of divorce?

Well, I can get how situations like that arise. I don't know how long you have been together, or how close you are with her mom, but I think all in all it may be wise to respect her wishes on this. Yes, that is a bummer if the mom is helpful and "gets it", but if it is something that is upsetting to your partner I think it is not a good idea and you should look for support elsewhere... .so, we're here!

In terms of enforcing a boundary, and how that led to her moving out, can you elaborate on that bit please?

with compassion, pearl.

[ziasquinn3000]

Thank you for the reply!

1. She said that me talking to her mother is "going behind her back" and that if I need to talk, talk to her. I have been respecting it since she asked me not to talk to her mother. But yes, her mother has been apart of my support system (and hers) because her mother has played a huge role in her life and handling similar situations as her mother was there for the several years of therapy that my wife went through.

2. So far there is no concrete answer on divorce, I have made it clear I do not want it when this first happened, but the last time we mentioned it I told her she still has access to the insurance when she said she was going to stop DBT. She said "but we're getting a divorce" I told her "if that's what you want, then yes we are" and after that is when she said "ok, let's go to couple's therapy" but she changed her mind on that, but has not brought up separation concretely and has only been baiting me into getting into arguments or that we should "say goodbye" because "there's no way we can make it work because she put her work into the relationship and I haven't" and that she is tired "putting all of the effort into the relationship".

3. In terms of enforcing a boundary. Well, this cycle had kept happening so we both wrote an accountability sheet, together. Because she would frequently turn my computer off (I work/leisure time on computer a lot), trap me in our bedroom, take my phone, etc. She would do these things usually because she would say/do something toxic then ask for me to "touch her" and I would refuse to give her physical affection because I didn't want to because she did those things, and her "not being touched" makes her not feel real, loved and etc. I try my best to do that for her before it gets to these points, but when she is too toxic I cannot do it for her because I have to protect myself. This is why I stopped touching her when she said "Who are the cops going to believe anyways. It doesn't matter what I do to you" which she cannot recall saying that.

Together we decided on an accountability escalation. If either of us were doing something that hurt the other, we needed to use the STOP skill. If that did not happen, the instigator had to remove themselves from the situation. If that did not happen, the instigator would have to sleep on the couch. If that did not happen the instigator would need to stay somewhere else for the night and if that did not happen, the non-instigator would have to stay somewhere else for the night. Well, the night that all happened she did not leave, so I left (within the past few weeks we reached the instigator (my wife) having to leave twice, in which she left of her own accord. and she felt that this time her having to leave for the 3rd time meant there was no way we can work). Then she decided to leave for an undetermined amount of time, which turned into a fight (because I do not put effort in and that I took minimal accountability for what happened that night) in which my second boundary became, I'll only continue to talk about this in couple's therapy into which her response was well it's over anyways so she's moving out. Then from there it's been different subtle manipulation tactics or saying different things to get a rise out of me "hm. well I guess we aren't talking then" when I told her she has to setup the couple's therapy.

[Radcliff]

Can you tell us more about the boundary you set that you would only talk about the relationship in couples therapy?  You were looking at what was happening, wanted to change it, and decided that declaring and enforcing that boundary was the right way to go.  Can you lead us through your thought process there?  Why did that seem like the right thing to do?

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

Can you tell us more about the boundary you set that you would only talk about the relationship in couples therapy?  You were looking at what was happening, wanted to change it, and decided that declaring and enforcing that boundary was the right way to go.  Can you lead us through your thought process there?  Why did that seem like the right thing to do?

WW

I initially tried talking to her about the relationship but she kept flipping the narrative that I am not putting any effort into the relationship and that she is sick of giving me chances. I made it clear and without question that I wanted to work through this through our family meetings at home and focus on the future. I tried asking to see if she was having a hard time or not, if she truly thought these things about me and she said she did. So I told her I respected her decision and she can reach out to me when she is ready to talk. This was during the initial argument when she decided to move out.

Enforcing the boundary seemed like the right thing to do because my therapist recommended some time apart because of the constant cycling. It also seemed like the right thing to do because if I took what she said at face value, our relationship was not worth salvaging anymore to her which really hurt me. She said she would go to couple's therapy (after the insurance thing), then said maybe she wouldn't and then finally said no at the last minute so I had to cancel and I feel that was disrespectful to me. At this point when she asked the final time if I wanted to say a "proper goodbye" she went on a spiel about how we've been inseperable and how she's the same person I married trying to guilt me. She also subtly threated that she rather have a therapist be a mediator than a lawyer. Then she disrespected me by saying I can setup the therapist appointment when I already told her if she changed her mind she should set one up since she cancelled on me and I would be glad to join her. Then she disrespected me by saying "hm. I guess we won't be talking then".

Wow. That was a really hard question wentworth. I had to re-type that a dozen times about why I thought it was the right thing to do and I'm still not satisfied with my answer. It feels like I am focusing on the past and not letting go and that I am letting my pride get in the way. That I am focusing too much on her not apologizing at all. And that I am getting into an unhealthy side of self-esteem or self-respect, because that was the initial purpose. To stand up for myself because of all the hurtful things she kept saying.

I guess it's because I relied heavily on my therapist's suggestion and I knew she was only trying to bait me if we were to try to talk. This got proven right when she said "hm. I guess we won't be talking then" and to me I felt it would show she cares if she setup the couple's therapist appointment out of respect and consideration for me, at least in this moment and that's why we can't talk. That's why I wanted it in a professional setting, because I feel neither of us can have a constructive conversation about our relationship without a trained 3rd party professional.

What is your thought about that wentworth? That question really hit a cord in me. I feel really conflicted that I can't say why that seemed like the right thing to do with 100% certainty, since my objective in mind is to ultimately get back together once we have both grown (her accountability issues and my boundary issues). What do you also think about me declining her saying she will go to therapy but I have to set it up at very specific times that suit her? I felt like that was a power play and inconsiderate to my time and not respecting my wishes that she sets it up since she cancelled on me.

[Radcliff]

Don't beat yourself up, this is tough stuff.  

My quick impression is that you may have painted yourself into a corner with boundary setting.  It sounds like one thing led to another, with you doing your darndest to steer things in a healthy direction, but with each step things progressed towards a split.  :)oes that sound accurate?

Does your therapist understand personality disorders?  And I mean really understand them as in has treated many of them, and has had some success?  If not, that may be some of the issue, because... .

My other impression is that both you and your therapist are expecting your wife to get to the level of functioning of someone without BPD rather quickly.  That isn't going to happen.  With a successful DBT program and enough time, you might get to a good place.  It's fantastic that she is in DBT, that's the best possible scenario.  But you are going to need to work with her where she is.  We can help with that.

When was the last time you met with her DBT therapist?  :)o you have confidence in him/her?  Was it a productive meeting?

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

I think that is accurate. But I also think it's standing up for myself as well. I feel during this whole thing she hasn't showed me any respect and has tried subtlety manipulating me. My therapist has experience with BPD, but I wouldn't say she specializes in it or regularly treats it. I'd have to ask her, but we initially chose her as our couple's therapist because she had experience with BPD. I can say I trust her and that she's usually pretty good about things and how to handle them. She basically summarized with, my wife is finally able to be stable with work, her friends and not sabotaging them and basically every other part of her life except chooses not to with me.

But I guess you're right. I'm unsure if I painted myself into a corner. The way my wife talks is very deceiving and I honestly don't know what the right thing is to do. My friends and therapists both know this has been a repeating cycle and she keeps getting out of control. They feel this is the right move to help her grow into someone that can take accountability for themselves and to enable me to stand up for myself. I mean at the end of the day, I'm not asking for much, I just want to sit in on therapy with her.

I last met with her DBT therapist May 15. It was a very great meeting. I do have confidence in him, but I feel I am stepping out of line if I reach out to her therapist like that? Or is it ok to reach out to him and ask for advice? I have only met with him twice in the past half year. He is really good though and I really would like to but I want to respect my wife.

Should I say ok I will schedule a therapist appointment at the time she said she's available? This is what was last said between us and it was on Saturday. After she said this, the next day she posted on instagram then blocked me so I would see the notification but not the post. Then later that day she posted on my porn website I go to exclusively and she was there on the front page, so she was still trying to get a rise out of me I think because she hasn't posted there for a year.

[ziasquinn3000]

I'm also now afraid, that if I do indeed reach back out and say OK I can setup an appointment with your schedule in mind, that she will refuse and we will be back to square 1.

[Radcliff]

I'm still trying to get a feel for whether this separation was a result of things spiraling out of control or whether it was planned and thought through with your therapist.  What exactly did your therapist say?  Were you living together and your therapist said "stop talking about the relationship unless you're with a therapist?" 

I wouldn't be too picky about how the appointment gets set up.  If she doesn't show, she doesn't show.  Part of dealing with someone with a personality disorder is learning to let go of what you cannot control (this is hard, and it's often hard every day, I'm still on this journey).  That's great that she's willing to go.  Be flexible about how it gets set up.  Make sure she doesn't feel controlled by you with how you set it up.  Validate her, say that you're glad you two will have a chance to talk together with the therapist, etc.

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

It's a combination of both. She ended up saying she was going to stay away for a while, we got into the fight via text and it spiraled out of control and she decided to fully move out. So my therapist from then said just give her time, let her live on her own and we can try reconvening later and possibly go back to just dating and in the meantime we will both have a chance to escape from this cycle, as clearly co-habitation would not work while trying to break the cycle or trying to work through our relationship as I gave her chance and chance. I agreed that was the case, but it spiraled out of control in that my wife is done with me.

Yeah I can see that now. That she still needs some form of control in the situation. But she last said this on Saturday and it's now Tuesday. How can I bring up the topic without being a "doormat" about my boundary? I will gladly be flexible and just set it up, but since I haven't said anything since that day and she hasn't reached back out, I'm not sure how to proceed without it looking like I cracked? Or how I can even just check in on her and give her support in general since how things were left.

I think this would fit the criteria of DEARMAN?

"Hey wife, I was under a lot of stress on Saturday and felt like I needed time to collect my thoughts. I still want to go to therapy and speak with you. I am really glad that we will have a chance to talk together with a therapist, it will be a good chance to hear what each of us are thinking and for us to be friendly. Can I still set one up for X day like you suggested?"

[Radcliff]

Arguing over text is a very bad idea.  It should never be done.  No good can come of it.  Solving hard problems is for in person or on the phone.  If you can follow this advice, I guarantee you'll have less misery.

Your wording of the message to her sounds great, except I'd be inclined to say something like, "Why don't I... ." or "How about I... ." both of which to me sound collaborative since "Can I... .to me sounds a little too submissive.

Boundaries are often done wrong, and even done right can be a challenge to work out in real life.  Done wrong they can create a real mess.  I wouldn't overly sweat boundaries regarding the appointment setup.  Just be nice and get it done.  Be calm, confident, and friendly.  If she drags her heels, relax a little instead of getting tense about it.  If you are frustrated or tense, she'll sense that and likely want to do the opposite.

To learn more about boundaries, visit this page on setting boundaries.

Looking at your situation as a learning example, when you said, "How can I bring up the topic without being a "doormat" about my boundary?" What specifically was the boundary?

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

Very true. My therapist recommends I disengage and do not open up conversation via text at all now.

She ended up reaching out to me last night asking if I filed for divorce. I told her no, do you want me to? and she said no it's fine. From there she said how am I? I said "I'm doing fine. I hope you are doing well" because I didn't want to invite a conversation but also show her I care. She said She is and asked me what i've been up to, so I told her I think it's best if I keep it professional and if she would like to talk I would be fine to talk more in couple's therapy. She ignored it and said she needed a book from the house that she forgot and she will come pick it up the next day, conveniently at the time I would get off work and be home. So I told her "how about I gather the books and set them in a box on the front porch" (using your collaborative approach) She said she'd rather them not be outside all day so I said "why don't i give the box of books to (roommate). he will be home and can give them to you"

She basically said it was unacceptable and that it's her house too and she will be coming INSIDE to get her stuff after I told her I was uncomfortable if she came inside the house. She said she'll either come right now or she'll come tomorrow so I just said come right now I'll be stepping outside as I tried to stop controlling the situation. But then she tried asking if I would stay so we can "have an adult conversation with the security camera pointed at us" (I have security cameras in the house) I politely declined and said I would be fine to speak in couple's therapy then she brought out the divorce stuff again "I really want to have a last one on one conversation before all this whole divorce thing starts happening" I ignored it and focused on the issue at hand and said please let me know when she has her stuff. She told me "i love you and i hope you can understand what has to happen from here" I told her "I love you too. Let me know when you leave the house" so she said "if you love me why won't you to talk to me" I told her "My therapist suggested that we communicate about this stuff in a professional setting. I feel like I cannot have a constructive conversation unless we can do it with a therapist. I hope you can understand. I can see how you might think I might not love you because of that. It is definitely a very frustrating position to be in." She said "I have never been more stable. I'd prefer it was just use" So I asked "Why?" To give her a chance to express herself and she said "because that's how we have the best conversations. It's been just us talking every night for years. I'd just like one more night" So I said "Sorry, can't do that unless it's in therapy" and then she said "Okay. You will only be in contact with me through my lawyer from this point on. I really wish you would consider a bit of friendliness in this. I don't want to have to do this"

That's when I stopped replying. The lesson I learned from this was I shouldn't have tried to control the situation to begin with, even if I was uncomfortable with her coming in the house and she already returned her house key. It's still technically her house too since we are married (I pay the mortgage and I'm the only one on the mortgage / lien, so it's not shared in that way) even tho we are supposed to be "broken up for right now". It's very confusing and hard to be able to do the right thing and make sure I don't let her walk over me. Because she said she will be coming, she never asked if she could or isn't trying to work with me in some way.

To answer your question, my boundary was I don't want to talk to her unless it's in therapy. She is clearly not ready for a constructive "adult conversation" as could be seen how she started talking to me once I told her I won't be at the house. I also feel like I won't be able to resist any of her tactics in person unless there is a therapist in the room as well. I think even if I was able to resist, her goal would be 100% to use tactics and not actually conversate, because she's done this in the past, to me it will show me her goal is to conversate as soon as she agrees again to go to couple's therapy.

[Radcliff]

OK, thanks for the clarification on boundaries.  It sounds like you are not willing to talk to her about anything, since it becomes a slippery slope and your worried that both she and you will fall into your old patterns without professional help?

Is your boundary against phone conversations as well, or meeting in person?

You said you were looking up information on whether trapping someone was against the law.  Is this something that she has done in the past?

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

That is correct. We will fall into the old cycle and no rooted issues will be solved. It also concerns me that the way she reasons why she wants to meet up with me, when I asked why; her answer was so that we can have "one last talk" before it's over for good. Thoughts on that?

She hasn't brought up a phone conversation, so I haven't thought about that. She only tries to meet in person if she wants to talk. Is this something I should offer? I could do a phone conversation. How should I even approach the situation because the last thing she said was "Okay. You will only be in contact with me through my lawyer from this point on. I really wish you would consider a bit of friendliness in this. I don't want to have to do this" I feel like if I reach out to her it shows a sign of weakness and that these threats are ok to do. I think the best thing to do is wait until she reaches out again and learn from my lesson about what happened last night, to not try to control anything and hopefully steer and encourage her into go to couple's therapy or even a phone call.

Yes, she has done it frequently. Usually if she becomes triggered or upset that I won't go to bed with her or something along those lines, she demands me to touch her and I won't touch her when she starts demanding (she only asks me to touch her after it gets out of control, but I have been practicing touching her before it gets to that) and getting out of control. I do try to talk her through it when it gets to that point but it's not enough so then I try to leave the room she will block me in, or she will follow me downstairs, or she will follow me outside or she will shut the garage if I try to drive away. It happens about twice a week.

[Radcliff]

That is correct. We will fall into the old cycle and no rooted issues will be solved. It also concerns me that the way she reasons why she wants to meet up with me, when I asked why; her answer was so that we can have "one last talk" before it's over for good. Thoughts on that?

"one last talk" before it's over for good -- My guess is that she used that phrase as a power play to draw you in emotionally.  You were probably wise not to step into that.  You probably could anticipate the content of the conversation, and that it wouldn't be productive.  And now knowing the extent of her trapping behavior, it would have been unsafe for you.

She hasn't brought up a phone conversation, so I haven't thought about that. She only tries to meet in person if she wants to talk. Is this something I should offer? I could do a phone conversation. How should I even approach the situation because the last thing she said was "Okay. You will only be in contact with me through my lawyer from this point on. I really wish you would consider a bit of friendliness in this. I don't want to have to do this" I feel like if I reach out to her it shows a sign of weakness and that these threats are ok to do. I think the best thing to do is wait until she reaches out again and learn from my lesson about what happened last night, to not try to control anything and hopefully steer and encourage her into go to couple's therapy or even a phone call.

The lawyer quote also is likely a power play.  With regards to the phone conversation, if there's something you want to talk about, you could suggest one.  But if there's nothing you want to talk about, or you are concerned it would be circular and long, avoid it.  Trust your gut. 

Yes, she has done it frequently. Usually if she becomes triggered or upset that I won't go to bed with her or something along those lines, she demands me to touch her and I won't touch her when she starts demanding (she only asks me to touch her after it gets out of control, but I have been practicing touching her before it gets to that) and getting out of control. I do try to talk her through it when it gets to that point but it's not enough so then I try to leave the room she will block me in, or she will follow me downstairs, or she will follow me outside or she will shut the garage if I try to drive away. It happens about twice a week.

This trapping of you is a big  .  It is in fact against the law.  Google "unlawful restraint [your state]" and you should get some relevant sections of your state's penal code.  There may be more than one.  Not that it's necessarily a good strategy to pursue a criminal complaint, but the fact that there are laws against it is a pretty good sign that you're on solid ground saying it's unacceptable!  Furthermore, this is not a safe situation for you to be in.  Domestic violence (and this is what it is) tends to escalate.  It's easily possible that she could push into you, that you could pull away, and she could lose her balance and get a bruise, then call the police on you.  This is not a hypothetical.  I have quite a bit of experience on the receiving end of unlawful restraint.  Two times a week is a lot.  Going forward, you should carefully document these incidents in a journal with dates, but hopefully, there will be no more.  You need to address this before you are back together.  You need a zero tolerance stance on this -- there needs to be consequences that involve others being informed of the behavior if it happens again.

Did you say you've met with her DBT therapist?  They should know about this behavior so they can use it as a "target" in DBT therapy.  It would be important to tell them about the frequency.

Has she exhibited any other behaviors like hitting, kicking, throwing things, making threats, etc.?

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

Thank you for the indepth reply. Regarding your first two answers, yes that is my reasoning and why i am hellbent on only doing it in therapy session with her and why I feel everything she does is power plays.

Yes, to go over this, this is why we made the accountability sheet and it's why I've been doing better with my boundaries and getting out of the room or her getting out of the room before it happens (she has left the house to stay with a friend for a couple days twice before this last event where I had to get out of the house because she would not. which makes me believe all this is her being uncomfortable with me finally enforcing boundaries). After the DBT therapist meeting it only happens once a week to a much lesser severity (she follows instead of blocks the door), because I am better at catching it before it happens and supporting her, but it used to be twice a week block the door. I was tired of this and that's what lead all of this to begin with. She has hit me three times in the relationship. I would only consider the first 2 times hits, the 3rd hit, was a push away slap. None of it's justifyiable, even the 3rd "push away", as it is physical contact like that. We spoke about the hitting the last time I was with her DBT therapist, so he is aware of it and he made to also very clearly tell her it's against the law and all parties, me, her therapist know it is not right. This is what I meant when I said she's been physical before but cleared it up with her therapist and it hasn't happened since.

So again if we bring it back to the beginning of the initial move out, it was about her saying I'm not putting in effort into the relationship (projecting, but I also think she was putting extreme effort in, she owned up to hitting, she's been in DBT for several months and has been making improvements). Then the next day it went into her saying she is using her wise-mind and that she really wants to not be with me, and she has been thinking this for several months. And this is where she goes again when she says "I am more stable than ever" so it does have me subconsciously fearful that she does actually want to end the relationship. But I have been staying strong and trying to ignore it and still being professional and validating when I can be. And why I have been trying to be so adamant about only talking in couple's therapy. Because I want her to be accountable and at the same time, it won't be productive alone. But I'm having a really hard time between "accountable" and "punishing" and I feel a little bad about how I made a big deal out of who sets up the therapy appointment, but I did make a big deal out of it since I already gave her the chance, I felt like it was me being strong but now i'm not sure if it's me "punishing her" because like you said I might be expecting her to be too non-BPD.

The only behavior that is like that has been the hitting, which has stopped. There have been no physical threats, throwing etc. but I believe it's because she knows I won't tolerate it. I told her I'm divorcing her the last time she hit me, but then we met with her therapist after we were apart for a few days and went over it, so I think she understands it's a pretty strong boundary. However, I think she knows that saying stuff like "who are the cops going to believe anyways" (the night before she ended up moving out) is what I consider a threat, so she does more subtle stuff like that.

With all this being said, what would your advice be now regarding talking to her? Keep the same approach I have been? I'm having 2 more therapists appointment today and another tomorrow so will also discuss more with therapist.

[ziasquinn3000]

Thank you so much again. You have re-invigorated me into remembering why this all started. I wanted out of the cycle as much as I love her. That doesn't mean I won't be there for her, however these things need to be addressed before we are back together - thus therapy.

[Radcliff]

No worries, I've found that it makes a massive difference to have the support of this site.  Therapists are extremely important, but folks who have actually lived it offer a different dimension, and diversify your sources of support.  Also, it's free

Can you remind us if you have any history of going to joint counseling with her before?

Would the joint counseling be with your therapist, or are you shopping for another one to handle the joint work?

It sounds like it has been a while since you have met with her DBT therapist.  Might it be a good time to meet again, with the honest and open reason that you want to make sure you're coordinating with her therapy?  It's a bit of a slippery slope, because you don't want to take responsibility for her therapy or undermine your own, but perhaps worth considering one meeting.

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

We tried couple's therapy about 4 months ago. We did that for a couple months then she stopped going because she didn't like the therapist (incompatible). My therapist suggested it's because my wife is just not ready yet (wife would never open up to therapist) So I've been seeing the therapist since then on my own.

I setup an appointment (2 weeks ago) for a couple's therapist a week ago (the one my wife cancelled on), so before any of this happened, because we were having the issues still and we both agreed we needed to go. It was with a new one we could both try out. Right now, I would really love to use her DBT therapist because it would be safe for her and he knows the history and he's really good from the times I met him. But I have left the option open to her. However of course, when she did the power play of telling me to set it up, even tho I told her no you cancelled, you set it up, there hasn't been a chance to bring it back up. I think if I reach out to her and ask, that she will say hell no, especially after the last lawyer power play quote.

I think if I take that approach, being honest about checking in, she will default back to that we are done or that she doesn't want to be with me so we shouldn't go for that reason. And of course I feel bad that I "missed" my chances, because I put my foot down so much and wouldn't let her control anything (her saying ok I'll go, you set it up tho). Of course I know it's not good to think about it like that. So should I wait for her to reach back out again? Especially because she last said only talk to me through my lawyer. If I reach out directly to her therapist he would for sure tell her and I'm not sure how that would go. I also think the therapist would think the relationship is unhealthy and maybe urge her not to be in it or something.

My gut is telling me I missed too many chances and she's probably deadset now or just honestly... .She wants out of this relationship for real and that the times she wavers isn't because it's wavering that she doesn't want to be with me, but the opposite. That she doesn't want to be with me and her wavering is she wants to be with me. But I think that's a gut response more out of fear, because if I can ask her or myself WHY she wants out, I think it goes to a not good answer, because she says she still loves me, I make her happy, etc. etc. and the reason why she doesn't want to be with me is that I don't put effort in, which I clearly do. My rational mind tells me, if she really wanted to work it out or wasn't done, she wouldn't threaten so many power plays to actually talk to me. But then my gut gut says, I am expecting her to act too much like a non-BPD.

[Radcliff]

Yes, you've got it, you're expecting her to act too much like a non-BPD.  Don't feel bad about this, our brains are wired to expect the other person to act like us and most other people, so it is continually jarring, even years into the relationship and years into our BPD education, when they don't act like "nons."  When you notice yourself being unrealistic, don't judge yourself, just make an adjustment.

I think your intuition is good not to reach out to her therapist directly.  Don't sweat it that you've ruined it, and don't believe any guilt she tries to throw at you that something you've done is the last straw, it's all your fault, etc.  There is a chance that she'll walk off and truly end it definitively, but that would be rare.  It is much much more common for the relationship to continue to cycle with push then pull then push then pull.  For relationships that end, it is more common for it to be the "non" to end it, which can be a very difficult task.  So for now, be calm and patient.  Have faith that another chance will come around, but maintain your boundaries.

Speaking of boundaries, yes, insisting that she make the appointment was probably counterproductive, but coping in these situations is messy.  You will make more mistakes.  We all have made many.  Each time, just pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and climb back in the saddle.  Boundaries are a skill that can be refined.  Have you had a chance to visit that boundaries link I gave you above?

If I were you, I'd offer to make an appointment.  Forget about the lawyer comment, just pretend she never said it, it was garbage talk to be filtered and ignored.  As for when to offer, you don't want to offer when she is still upset.  You want to offer when she has calmed down and has started to wonder if you've pulled away.  Have you read about pwBPD's fear of abandonment?  They push us away before we can push them away, so they maintain control and feel safer, but once they've pushed us away, they feel like we've abandoned them, and they start pulling.  Thus, the cycling.  Trying to re-engage her when the "push" is still happening will generated a stronger push.  Knowing her cycles, when do you think is the best time to reach out to her and nonchalantly suggest that you set up an appointment?  When you do, don't be too timid, like "can I," be more like, "I find myself thinking of you often and wanting to work on things with you.  How about I set up an appointment for next week?"  Warm enough to engage her, but not enough to pursue her.  You are flirting.

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

I had a pretty good therapist session today.

Pretty much what you said in the first 2 paragraphs. Regarding the boundaries, my therapist said yeah if it's a shaky boundary to begin with it's ok to own up to it and focus on the solid boundary, but not completely dismiss the shaky boundary. She also said I need to spend more time thinking about the boundary and the outcomes that come with it and if I ever feel the need to pull back a boundary I have to wait a while 2-3+ weeks otherwise my wife will learn to just keep pushing and pushing till it breaks. Yes I was able to look at the boundaries resource you provided. Very good info and I need to sit down and think deeper on it.

My therapist said that she will probably reach out and if she does not by when we expect the pull cycle to begin starting and I still feel the need to offer the appointment, I can do it by then. Otherwise she said optimally it's best if I just wait her out and then I can offer setting up the appointment. She said it's a fine line to treat them non-BPD and also as BPD. She said that my wife has chosen to live an adult life and is capable of it, she still has her job, promoted, has friends she can stay with etc. and my wife is actually the one that called and setup the appointment with my current therapist (because she used to be our couple's) so she is more than capable of setting up the appointment herself, she just chooses to act like a 6 year old in our relationship right this moment (she chooses because she has been able to be an adult in the past) and by the time the pull cycle hits up we might be able to sort things out, I just have to be more mindful of solid boundaries and keeping the objective in mind and pouncing on opportunities.

My therapist also made a good observation in regards to my wife saying "I'm more stable than ever so I want to leave you!" my therapist said, someone who hit someone a month ago is not stable .

Thank you for the "flirting" advice, that will definitely be my approach when the time comes. Until then I enjoy my 3 day weekend!

I will keep the thread updated. Any other advice regarding what I said is welcomed. Thank you again so much!

[Radcliff]

Thanks for the update.  Keep us posted!

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

I've been enjoying my weekend as I said I would. Lots of support system usage right now and enjoying what's fun for me. My goals are still priority, where we need to be separated and grow and heal, but I got to thinking some.

About a week before this happened (2 weeks ago now), like I said she had to stay with a friend twice. During that 2nd time she stayed with a friend she said she wasn't sure what to do, if she should come back or not. She said being away, she feels so free. That she doesn't have to worry so much. She said "I just keep going back to the pros and cons list and the feelings I’m having away from you but the feelings I have when I’m with you and just it’s all so much". After she had hit me a month ago and I told her I'm divorcing her and I couldn't talk with her right then, she had a long therapist session and made the "pros and cons list" that she referred to and then decided then that she wanted to leave the relationship, not until I convinced her for us to have the therapist session together with her DBT therapist shortly thereafter (kind of like the same situation now). Her DBT therapist said in the session that my wife was convinced there was NO WAY I would ever talk to her (when I just focused on that I couldn't talk to her right then during the night of hitting). We ended up making our own pros and cons list of us staying together, together. It basically boiled down that she is happy that we can even sit down together and do that to begin with and that's all she needed to know then, that it could be done.

2 weeks ago when this all started she said "This is different because I feel like I’m actively making smart decisions about this. I am doing all this mindfully". Tho it's hard for me to believe that considering the night before, she trapped me, unplugged my computer twice while trying to find a hotel and also tried taking my phone which are all things that are part of the unacceptable actions list we went over in the past.

I have my own issues obviously with codependency, because I'm still here after the multiple abuses and enabling the behaviors in that way. But am actively trying to work through them, I'm in my own therapy and she is working through her own things. Lately tho I feel like maybe I haven't owned up to my enabling behavior and that I should apologize for it in some way. Yes this is typical of FOG, but how can I genuinely own up to my behaviors throughout the relationship without detracting too much on the situation at hand. Doing that should all probably be saved for the therapy session together if we can end up going to it?

Also I think I already said this, but my wife was in Therapy for 7 years before me and has been in DBT the past 6 months. Maybe this really is her wise-mind saying she wants out? Is the push-pull behavior lately only a symptom of her wavering to actually end the relationship instead of the other way around? She has been able to consistently say each time, "one last time together" as if she was really serious. Granted, my therapist said that someone who hit someone a month ago is not stable. So maybe not wise-mind? Also all the other power-plays and trying to regain control says this is typical BPD tactics as well.

Grr, so difficult, so many moving pieces. Any thoughts anyone? I'm really thinking about budging on the only in therapy boundary, because I've been able to get through to her before when it's in person like she keeps asking. But of course I want out of the abusive cycle and we definitely have to be separated for some time. And with the BPD tactics I keep seeing, unless they're truthful, it makes me seem we won't have a productive conversation.

It doesn't help that the mom says she thinks my wife really wants this. I talked to her the day after the last time she reached out with the lawyer thing. I told the mom I shouldn't react to threats like that and she said it wasn't a threat and from my wive's perspective I will only talk to her with a therapist and the mom thinks "so it's kind of even... ." My brain says hell no... .One is to work through things, the therapist, the other is ending something not amicably.

[Radcliff]

With any decision like letting up on the "talk about it in therapy" boundary, don't make it quickly.  Get support.  Talk it through with your therapist.  If you give in on a boundary, it makes it 10 times harder to re-establish it.  If you truly need to talk about issues in therapy, and that's more productive, hold out for that.  Given your starting point of an abusive relationship, it's more "normal" to wait until you have successes in a controlled setting like therapy to then loosen the reins and talk about selected "easy" topics without therapy.  Keep in mind that many folks in an abusive situation are dealing with restraining orders that keep them far apart from each other.  You've got enough lattitude here to get yourself in emotional trouble, perhaps even physical trouble.

Regarding her mom, it can be painful at times to deal with friends and family who are trying to help, but don't understand the picture the same way we do.  It's often not black and white -- we value them as helpers in a limited way, yet they can also be disruptive.  How did you respond to her mom?

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

Yeah, that's what my therapist said. If I want to change a boundary it needs to be long enough to where it's not as fresh, like 3 weeks or so. You make very good points about "loosening the reins", sometimes it's difficult for me to grasp that because I feel like I could've done better in certain aspects and my wife hits my weakpoint when she says I'm not owning up to my part in the relationship. Such as saying she needs to setup the appointment and other aspects of me trying to "control" the situation or the relationship overtime. Though that's no good, I need to focus on the future. I know I've been an awesome husband and I know I've slipped up here and there with my codependent controlling issues and of course I just want to let my wife know I'm sorry for that and I've been making good progress with it and I am owning up to my part. Especially with how this whole thing has folded out!

Her mom was generally saying that I am trying to control the situation too much. Especially with how I told my wife "how about I get your book and put it in a box on the porch" or "how about I give the book to the roommate to give to you". And then of course the therapist ultimatum versus her lawyer comment. I told her mom after she said she thinks this is what she really wants I said but she asked me if I had filed for divorce yet and I told her "no, do you want me to?" and she said "no, it's fine don't" and I asked the mom what she thought about that. She said she "I can't answer that" right after she got done talking to my wife on the phone an hour earlier, which makes me *assume* that maybe she really is going through with it. I told the mom well I've told her that I respect whatever decision she makes and that she needs to do what she thinks is best to take care of herself. Then I just let the mom know to let me know if there's anything I can do for the mom and that I don't want this to get ugly either which is why I've been trying for the therapist session.

[Panda39]

My gut is telling me I missed too many chances and she's probably deadset now or just honestly... .She wants out of this relationship for real and that the times she wavers isn't because it's wavering that she doesn't want to be with me, but the opposite. That she doesn't want to be with me and her wavering is she wants to be with me.

How should I even approach the situation because the last thing she said was "Okay. You will only be in contact with me through my lawyer from this point on.

2 weeks ago when this all started she said "This is different because I feel like I’m actively making smart decisions about this. I am doing all this mindfully"... .

... .Maybe this really is her wise-mind saying she wants out? Is the push-pull behavior lately only a symptom of her wavering to actually end the relationship instead of the other way around? She has been able to consistently say each time, "one last time together" as if she was really serious... .

Hi ziasquinn3000,

I don't post much on the relationship boards (I'm here because my significant other has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife).  But I did want to pop in because I see a pattern.  Watch what your wife says and what she actually does.  She's talking the talk but is she walking the walk?  Has she hired a divorce attorney? No.  Has she filed for divorce? No. Has she disengaged with you? No.

You have the "Fear" in FOG rolling big time in terms of what you do, and how you respond to her.  You're listening to what she says so your fear is elevated,but also look at what she's doing because in terms of getting a divorce she isn't doing anything to move that forward.

Unfortunately, she also isn't doing anything to get therapy between the two of you going either. Right now you seem to be at a stalemate. If you want therapy with her I think you are going to need to take the lead. I would schedule an appointment at a time you know she is available and let her know what you've arranged.  She may or may not go, if she doesn't go you should still go.  The only people we can truly control is ourselves, show her you want to do this.  But also be aware you can't make her do something she doesn't want to do, frankly therapy won't be effective if she's not there to do the work.  If you go alone maybe talk about the stalemate you find yourself in with your wife, make it a productive appointment whether your wife attends or not.

Panda39

[ziasquinn3000]

Yeah that all makes sense. However neither of us can say if she has hired a divorce attorney or not or filed or not. My lawyer said I wouldn't receive anything for a few weeks if she has. Disengaging, she definitely has not. But with the lawyer/divorce talk

That makes sense about taking the lead, that's why I was going to go with wentworth's advice of waiting for the pull cycle to start back up then offer the therapy appointment. Do you think I should set it up regardless and only let her know, not really ask? If I do do that tho, I want to do therapy with her DBT therapist, so how would I approach calling her therapist? "Hi DBT therapist, I would like to setup an appointment with you and me, ideally my wife will come but that is on her as I do not know what headspace she is in right now, but before she said she would go, but I still would like to meet up with you regardless of my wife. If she doesn't go I want to still go and will respect any and all out of bound topics about my wife and focus on me." I'm not really sure what to say because I don't want to disrespect or talk to him "behind my wife's back" or as a professional if he would even entertain speaking to me alone without my wife's permission because he is focusing on my wife and her mental health. I know he will ask her, but how can I get in the door to where "I can go alone" without crossing any boundaries of a client-therapist relationship. Even if she doesn't show up for a month, I would still really love to talk with her DBT therapist on my own for my own sake since he's been up to speed on everything.

Thanks for the reply Panda39!

[Panda39]

Sorry, I missed that you wanted to do this with her DBT Therapist. How were your past appointments with her DBT Therapist arranged? 

I agree I would not want to do something that makes your wife feel that she can't trust her Therapist or you (this would be really counter productive), I would not want to put the Therapist in a position to do something that isn't ethical or in the best interest of his patient and you don't want to triangulate with you, your wife, and the therapist.  You're right it's tricky if you want to do this with her DBT Therapist.

Maybe this is a conversation to have with your Therapist first, they would be aware of the guidelines and boundaries that Therapists must work within, and might have some suggestions for you.

Panda39

[ziasquinn3000]

The past appointments with her therapist were her regularly scheduled therapies and I asked to come with. I've only been twice. The last time was a few days after she hit me and she was under the impression "I would NEVER talk to her again" as her therapist put it.

The first appointment she cancelled on was with a new therapist we were going to try. After she cancelled with that I said ok you can set it up with whoever you want. Then later she said ok you can set it up for XYZ date and times. So I said I already told you if you changed your mind to set it up, I would even be fine with your DBT therapist. So it's been laid out on the table that I'd do it with her therapist. Though I didn't really make my intentions clear that I would *want* to do it with her therapist because it would be safe for her and he was really good the last times we went.

I have a therapy appointment this evening and will be going over how to do it with her.

[ziasquinn3000]

Had another therapy appointment today. Went pretty ok. We got to talking about how to approach her, but in the end I decided it was best if I didn't and just waited till she reached back out again... .Well, tonight, she posted on my porn site again (she didn't post since that last week the day after when she didn't get attention from me, the porn thing was only ever about an "us" thing we did a year ago, but stopped because she was unhealthy about it. It's a fetish site and it's always been my fetish she'd indulged) and then 5 minutes after posting (I was on my porn site when I got the facebook message, so that's how I saw she posted on it) she sent me this on facebook:

"I wrote up something with my lawyer on Wednesday. I have to go in and sign tomorrow evening and then I need you to go in and sign as well. You don’t have to sign in agreement. You just sign that you received the proposal. Then you have 30 days to respond to being served with the divorce papers. But if you don’t go in and sign, I have to pay for the sheriff to deliver the papers to you personally at work or home. So I’d highly recommend signing acknowledgment of being served anytime after Monday."

Looks like I was right about what the mom was insinuating. Looks like I was right about how she really did want "one last night". I know it's not my fault that I didn't take her up on the night, or that I didn't reply well to her when she was open to going to therapy and I didn't setup the appointment. I can only control my own actions. It's just so frustrating that the night before this all happened, we were literally telling each other how proud we were of each of our own progress and how much we love each other. It's so frustrating she seemed to be open to going and I "missed my chance" even tho I know I didn't. If she really wanted to go she would have reached back out to me.

I didn't reply because I needed to reach out to my lawyer and see what is kosher, if I'm allowed to say ok. I looked up the lawyer she said she is using and he apparently specializes in uncontested divorces where both spouses have full agreement, it is cheap and it is also quick. Any thoughts, anyone? I know I can only think and act on the present and future... .But still. I'm doing fine, this really didn't phase me as much as I thought it would've. I honestly didn't even get that brief shooting pain of anxiety, it was kinda like, "ah, ok" to myself.

It seems to me like she didn't have to mention that she wrote it up on Wednesday, the day after I refused seeing her "one last time". Still power plays? Obviously I will sign and get this done if it's what she wants.