Shade of Black

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I was thinking yesterday about being painted "black" and how many different shades there are.  Then I thought perhaps the depth of black is proportional to how many wrong/bad things the other person did to you and the severity of those actions/words.  The worse it gets, the blacker the paint.   As can be seen on this forum, many pwBPD struggle with accepting responsibility for their actions and projection seems common.

Share your thoughts related to your own experiences.

[C.Stein]

I was thinking yesterday about being painted "black" and how many different shades there are.  Then I thought perhaps the depth of black is proportional to how many wrong/bad things the other person did to you and the severity of those actions/words.  The worse it gets, the blacker the paint.   As can be seen on this forum, many pwBPD struggle with accepting responsibility for their actions and projection seems common.

Share your thoughts related to your own experiences.

[Beach_Babe]

That is true, but you'd be surprised how fast that changes once they hit bottom. It is, and will always be, based upon THEIR need.

[Should I stay or...]

Hi C,

I have my own theory.

I have an interesting back story... .My ex's daughter came in to see me for an eye exam 5 years ago with a referral from the pediatrician stating that she couldn't see... .she couldn't see the big "E"

Long story short her visual issues were related to stress in her home life and she had accompanying color blindness related to this stress as well.

At that time I had no clue that her mom had BPD, the diagnosis was;

Functional Vision Loss with color blindness... .Visual loss due to stress in her environment. After treatment, and educating the family, her vision returned to normal as well as her color vision.

I've been doing research ever since, I started taking note of my own patients. And, those of a neuro-ophthalmologist; asking the question about their FOO and BPD's with Functional vision loss and accompanying color blindness.

I have a paper that I'm writing called:"Emotionally Color Blind"                                                 

... The severity of trauma that one personally experiences as a child can cause them to see their world "visually" in shades of black and white. Clinically significant research has shown that BP's have these correlations and experiences. And, they recall their trauma in black and white no color is associated with their recall from ages 5-10. Their perceptions became their realities.

[fromheeltoheal]

"Painting black" is a term that's confusing to some, and has always made me wonder flat, satin or semi-gloss?  Anyway, musings aside, we all do that to some extent: have a falling-out with someone and then accentuate their negative qualities while minimizing their positive ones, to make them seem worse in our heads, justify their dismissal from our lives and make ourselves "right".  And then there's the handy tool of projection, assign negative traits we see in ourselves to someone else and then banish them, so they conveniently take those traits with them so we end up free of them.

Borderlines can be extreme in a lot of ways, and can be extreme painters, make someone absolute scum and the owner of everything bad about themselves, mental gymnastics to feel better, effective when taken to the extreme and perfected.  Reality can warp when taken to the extreme like that, and it's up to us to accept the role we've been assigned by someone with a mental illness, which usually means removing them from our lives, at least on this board, since nothing empowering will come from them when they're in that mode, and then also being aware of when we do the painting and why, making sure we only paint when it improves the picture, as we populate it with empowering people on the way to our bright future.

[thisworld]

Musings are helpful I now see that my ex had different textures of black, "flat, satin or semi-gloss" meaning different feelings for him. It wasn't always anger and just anger. It had different tones, justifying things with everything from morality to class difference (he had a variety of discourses). Still, I don't think any of this is related to what was done or its extent the way we get it. It depends on his perception of the slight, which is related to his inner mechanisms.To him, the biggest slight is to treat him humanely and respectfully and expect the same back. I'm his only partner who didn't play him, cheat on him but also didn't let certain stated and agreed boundaries to be trespassed. This drove him crazy. Like, do really hurtful things to him but give him some attention, he will accept it and will fit it somewhere in his definition of friendship. (will still paint you black though). Act like the way I did, you become the biggest enemy. (This is his narcissistic aspect). It's never about us in the way we perceive it.

[C.Stein]

Good thoughts here so far.   

There appears to be a commonality in the posts ... .the perception of reality and how a pwBPD can modify/twist this perception in order to find an acceptable self they can live with.  Maybe we could explore this further? 

[thisworld]

I think my BPD ex doesn't twist it on purpose (unless he is consciously manipulating, like when held accountable or when he wants to achieve something). He really, sincerely got something else because he has a different inner mechanism established by whatever caused this health problem. Like two Nons brought up with more or less similar cultural, parental influences etc would "get it" and BPD gets something else. I say X, another Non would get X (in general) and BPD gets a very radical anti-X. He lives in a different emotional language domain for me. I feel like we were aliens in each other's emotional planets. I can see that this is a disorder but it has no place for me even if I somehow agreed to accommodate it. It sees me as the enemy, the target to be violated. It's not only about my acceptance, he never accepted me, either. And when he doesn't accept, he attacks

[fromheeltoheal]

Good thoughts here so far.   

There appears to be a commonality in the posts ... .the perception of reality and how a pwBPD can modify/twist this perception in order to find an acceptable self they can live with.  Maybe we could explore this further? 

Yes, and can you see how we all do that to some extent CS?  The more emotionally challenging finding an acceptable self we can live with is, the more extreme the perception shifting.  Borderlines, and anyone else in emotional pain, can take that to the extreme, but it's a matter of degree.

[thisworld]

Then, isn't it possible for a Non not to do this (twist reality) when they are in emotional pain? I know we are talking about degrees but what happens to the cognitive awareness like "I'm in pain and my perception may be skewed?" For instance, cognitive therapy for OCD involves working on this differentiation and let your perceptions just flow in your mind. It's like a capacity to watch your mind from outside - self-awareness and the awareness that your reality may not be reality at that time? For me facts come first and emotions later. For BPD, it's emotions=facts. This can be developed with CBT, DBT or even low frustration tolerance exercises. I feel like with my emotions I respond to something that is real (and it is real). It may not be the only real but I believe that when I explain my perspective, another Non will see the rationality within the thought/feeling system. With my BPD ex, this didn't work like this I think. He had his alternative reality, but its components didn't cohere - sometimes in his eyes either. This is a great topic for comprehending ourselves I think. Your opinions will be appreciated.   

[burritoman]

With all of these stories of them trying to come back, at what point do they paint you white?

[fromheeltoheal]

Then, isn't it possible for a Non not to do this (twist reality) when they are in emotional pain? I know we are talking about degrees but what happens to the cognitive awareness like "I'm in pain and my perception may be skewed?" For instance, cognitive therapy for OCD involves working on this differentiation and let your perceptions just flow in your mind. It's like a capacity to watch your mind from outside - self-awareness and the awareness that your reality may not be reality at that time? For me facts come first and emotions later. For BPD, it's emotions=facts. This can be developed with CBT, DBT or even low frustration tolerance exercises. I feel like with my emotions I respond to something that is real (and it is real). It may not be the only real but I believe that when I explain my perspective, another Non will see the rationality within the thought/feeling system. With my BPD ex, this didn't work like this I think. He had his alternative reality, but its components didn't cohere - sometimes in his eyes either. This is a great topic for comprehending ourselves I think. Your opinions will be appreciated.   

I agree thisworld, when we use psychological tools to a degree that it warps reality we call that mental illness, and who hasn't been "crazy" at one point or another, but someone who lives there full time we would label "disordered" or "abnormal".  Then again, what is reality?  What is "normal"?  :)epends whom you talk to right?  Too deep for this thread, but the point is, while borderline personality disorder represents a divergence from what we call 'normal', because what is 'ordered' development in most people becomes 'disordered' at some point in a borderline's development, a borderline is human after all and has more similarities to non-borderlines than differences, and the overall point is to retain a balance in the discourse, instead of going too far into us vs. them, which is our own version of black and white and splitting.

That said, it is beneficial as we learn about the disorder and how it shows up in behaviors to notice the differences in behavior and talk about them, the big thing that can do is eliminate the confusion as we detach, so we can get busy looking at the abuse we may have suffered and our own stuff that showed up in the relationship, since it takes two to tango.

[thisworld]

Thank you for your comment Fromheeltoheal,

And you are right, "us" and "them" is our own version of splitting and it's not valid anyway - everyone falls somewhere on a scale anyway, and psychiatric definitions are just somewhere to start treatment. They are not these fixed definitions that describe individuals completely. I also agree that our focus should be on ourselves. Still, at this point of my detachment, I've also started thinking something which I quite like actually. Even though a relationship may be full of difficulties - and our own issues definitely contribute this- there are still some positive things we take into our relationships. This last and short relationship actually showed me how far I've come in terms of preserving my boundaries, employing healthier skills at the face of challenge etc. (That's one of the reasons why I experienced severe frustration from my partner I think, "calm, friendly but firm" gave him a different kind of challenge.) Now, thinking about it from afar, I think I see my own positive aspects better and in the future want to be in personal environments where these are not used only for problem-solving or crisis management but are reciprocated and challenged positively for a different kind of growth. There was no way my BPD ex could provide me with this - not a general judgment, just under our circumstances. Thank you for making me think. This is a very important component of my personal detachment and healing.

[C.Stein]

Yes, and can you see how we all do that to some extent CS?

Absolutely.  When someone is under emotional turmoil or is faced with a wrong they committed the tendency to warp reality, as it were, is strong.  It is a coping mechanism, an attempt to lessen the emotions or wrong that are involved.  That said, when I see myself doing something like this I step back.  I remove myself from the emotions and objectively look at the facts I am faced with.  These speak a much truer reality than the one which is spun inside the mind in times of emotional turmoil.  Granted it is hard at times but it is the fair thing to do for both myself and those closest to me.

The more emotionally challenging finding an acceptable self we can live with is, the more extreme the perception shifting.  Borderlines, and anyone else in emotional pain, can take that to the extreme, but it's a matter of degree.

Perception shifting is perhaps the key here?  My ex would perceive things that weren't there.  Twisting my words, twisting her own words, twisting her actions, conveniently forgetting stuff she had done or said, selectively remembering only certain things (particularly those that made her look good), etc... . She creates her own reality by shifting her perception of events to make them into something they are not.  In this way she can also shift responsibility for actions that cast her as a bad person or have hurt someone close to her.

This brings me back to the shade of black.  :)epending on how large a perception shift it is, a deterrence from reality so to speak, the deeper the shade of black?   I also wonder if the magnitude of the shift impacts the true reality for her.  The larger the shift the more likely she is to eventually believe that it is a truth and not a manufactured perception of reality that allows her to avoid culpability.   A smaller shift, one that has a much smaller impact on the psyche, is not one that necessarily becomes an internal truth.  In times of clarity these smaller shifts can be seen for what they are, the larger shifts however may become a truth because anything else would alter her perception of herself ... .and not in a good way.

This also touches on deception, how one goes about altering (or leaving out)  details of an event in order to mislead another person and/or themselves.   It is a shift in perception, particularly one that shifts the perception of the one being deceived.  With respect to this, how does one explain a deception that occurs without the deceiver knowing they are doing it?  Is this also a shift in perception, where they have convinced themselves that this deception is a substitute for reality, even while inside the deception?

[Confused?]

I don't think I was ever really painted "black". I was replaced twice. I have also been blocked from social media and text and phone. I honestly think the black paint is not how she sees me but rather how she sees what she has done to me. My ex has shown a lot of remorse and shame when contacting me after our break up. I don't know why she has to tell me she's sorry (weather she is repeating the same mistake, or with someone who is actually not a good person) i definately think there are different levels of BPD. Mine was very self aware. I think the paint is more for those who are less self aware. Don't get me wrong, she treated me very badly especially while I was being replaced. But that was more projection than anything. I think the ones that just disappear without a trace and act like you never existed might have narc traits and a lot more going on than just BPD. Just my experience.

[fromheeltoheal]

This also touches on deception, how one goes about altering (or leaving out)  details of an event in order to mislead another person and/or themselves.   It is a shift in perception, particularly one that shifts the perception of the one being deceived.  With respect to this, how does one explain a deception that occurs without the deceiver knowing they are doing it?  Is this also a shift in perception, where they have convinced themselves that this deception is a substitute for reality, even while inside the deception?

I would call that denial.  I don't know about you, but I've been in denial of something, usually a truth I didn't want to face, and a friend would call me on it, and they were right, and it was something I literally couldn't perceive previously because my denial was strong enough.

Now someone with a personality disorder that is shame-based and puts them in continuous emotional pain is going to develop tools like projection and compartmentalization that are so complete that the feelings associated with something completely go away, a way of soothing emotions that are intense.  Combine that with emotional immaturity that results in black and white, all or nothing thinking and the "denial" of a piece of reality becomes absolute.  It's said that feelings equal facts for borderlines, which really means a borderline will use the tools on the facts as necessary to soothe the emotions, even if that involves coming up with a version of the facts that does not match reality or other's recollection; it takes what it takes.

This discussion reminds me of that game where someone whispers something in someone's ear, who then whispers it in someone else's, and around the circle, and when it gets to the end what the last person heard gets compared to what the first person said, and it's always radically different, which is also always funny.  The lesson is reality is what we say it is, subject to everyone's interpretation, filtered through our own areas of focus and experience.  A borderline is the same way, just with a radically different focus and a limited skillset, and trying to reconcile with that to the point of a sustainable, fulfilling relationship is something we all tried until we didn't, and here we are picking up the pieces and making sense of the world again.  The good news is we can now use the newfound wisdom to create a life of our dreams, of our own design, and an improved version of ourselves can live it, and once that happens, we can look back and maybe be grateful for the experience and the lessons.  It's a brand new world!

[C.Stein]

I would call that denial.  I don't know about you, but I've been in denial of something, usually a truth I didn't want to face, and a friend would call me on it, and they were right, and it was something I literally couldn't perceive previously because my denial was strong enough.

I suppose I was in denial of what I saw right from the beginning.  I wanted to believe my ex could be more than the sum of her past actions ... .and I truly believed she could.  However a voice of reason inside warned me she likely could not and that I would get hurt.  I didn't listen to the voice, I choose to believe in her.  I think everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt at least once.  My problem was I kept giving her the benefit of the doubt ... .I was denying what was right in front of me.  People make mistakes, I know this, but when it continues unabated then it just becomes denial.  I was deceiving myself.  She is capable of self-reflection, I just don't think she is capable of sustained self-change and I was denying the truth of that to myself.

What I am trying to understand here is how deep a shade of black I have been painted.  I do think every individual is different and what confused said might be along the lines of what my ex has done.  That said, I believe she has taken relatively minor things and blown them way out of proportion in order to make her own injustices less significant.  I do think she is projecting somewhat as well, particularly when it comes to deception.  She is certainly blaming me for her actions ... .which led me to this shade of black question.  If she is blaming me for what she knows to be a heinous act, then she has come to believe I am responsible for the heinous act ... .therefore I get painted a really deep shade of black.  

Does that seem to be a somewhat logical assumption?  How can a person reason something like this and still have any concept of reality?  I know it has been said it is pointless to try and apply logic to the illogical, but the scientist in me wants to make at least some logical sense of all this.

I do agree reality and "normality" are relative to the person.  That said, when faced with undeniable facts how does one logically twist them into something else and believe in the new fabricated reality?  Yes this brings us back to perception of the fact.  I could point at the sun and say "look, the moon".  Now am I really perceiving it as the moon or am I simply trying to convince myself and others that it is really the moon when I damn well know it is the sun?

[GreenEyedMonster]

I've been thinking about this issue a lot the last couple days and I have some ideas about it.

My ex definitely split people.  But in my experience, he did it mostly with strangers.  As I posted in another thread, a health professional once told him to change his behavior, and he didn't like being criticized, so he got angry with her and said she was unprofessional and should be fired.  That is the classic kind of "painting black" that we see so much on these boards, where a person can't handle his own flaws and must hate the person who dared point them out in order to protect himself from hurt.

But with my ex -- and I'm not sure about all pwBPD -- there is another kind of being painted black.

My ex was functionally unable to imagine himself in the situation of another person.  It was as if his emotional development stalled out before he fully developed empathy.  The end result of this is that he was unable to separate out people's actions, people's intentions, and how those actions made him feel.  For example, when I was dating my ex, I lived on a street with a really bad blind corner at an intersection.  I had driven through the intersection enough times that I knew that the cross traffic *legitimately* could not see what was coming, and people would often pull out into traffic by accident.  Since they couldn't see you, you just had to slow down at that spot in the street and sometimes let people pull out in front of you.  There was nothing you could do about it.  When my ex would come up to this spot, he would get really angry if anyone pulled out in front of him, though, and honk his horn maniacally at them in frustration, feeling personally wronged.  He would arrive at my house in a huff.  Finally one day I explained that he should drive the other way when he left and see that those people REALLY couldn't see traffic coming.  He was like, "Oh."  He had never considered that the people on the other street weren't just being selfish jerks.

So I have concluded that there are two kinds of painting black, the "defensive" kind and the "feelings are facts" kind.

Defensive:  My doctor tells me to lose weight.  I know deep down that I'm overweight and should change my lifestyle, but I'm emotionally overwhelmed by the task.  I criticize the doctor and say that s/he is a quack who has no right to tell me what to do with my life in order to avoid the difficult truth I can't face.  I find another doctor in anger.

Feelings are facts:  You make me feel bad, therefore you ARE bad.  The doctor told me to lose weight because he is a bully.  He told me that to make me feel fat and ugly, because that is how I felt after he said it.  His intention was to hurt me, and I know this because I am hurt.  There is no possibility that he told me this for my own good, because if someone were telling me something to be nice to me, I would feel good.

My ex certainly was defensive, but the kind of "painting black" that occurs in his personal relationships tends to be mostly of the second kind.  He works backwards (very illogically) from the emotion that he has to what he thinks is the truth of your intentions or thoughts.  Right now he is struggling with major engulfment fears.  He has accused me repeatedly of stalking him, even though I'm clearly not.  Somewhere deep inside, he FEELS overwhelmed by my presence and physical closeness in his life, so he works backwards from this emotion and concludes that I must be intentionally doing this to him and by controlling me he can make it stop.  He ends up with very oversimplified views of people, because he concludes that everyone who hurts his feelings must be intentionally doing so, with no possibility that it is "constructive criticism" or some other good intention gone awry.  The FEELING is the FACT of what you were trying to do.

This justifies revenge and punishment against anyone who hurts him.  No one, in his mind, hurts him by accident, so they are all deserving of "justice" (revenge).

Right now I'm in the tough spot of trying to make him feel not stalked by me, but also competing with him for time with our friends.  It is a catch-22 if there ever was.  The only thing I can do it whack him over the head with the fact that I'm dating other people, which I'm doing at every opportunity.  This seems to make him feel relief, and therefore feel like I am nice again.

[thisworld]

I've been thinking about this issue a lot the last couple days and I have some ideas about it.

Defensive:  My doctor tells me to lose weight.  I know deep down that I'm overweight and should change my lifestyle, but I'm emotionally overwhelmed by the task.  I criticize the doctor and say that s/he is a quack who has no right to tell me what to do with my life in order to avoid the difficult truth I can't face.  I find another doctor in anger.

Feelings are facts:  You make me feel bad, therefore you ARE bad.  The doctor told me to lose weight because he is a bully.  He told me that to make me feel fat and ugly, because that is how I felt after he said it.  His intention was to hurt me, and I know this because I am hurt.  There is no possibility that he told me this for my own good, because if someone were telling me something to be nice to me, I would feel good.

So am I correct to understand that if both can be analysed through one example (the doctor/weight) then we may actually never know which particular one was at work at one particular time? (I tend to think my ex partner wouldn't know either, unless he attempted to discover in a therapy environment. But even then, it may not be one valid narrative. The way he perceives his own motives were ever changing.)

I think in my ex partner's situation what I understood as painting someone black could also be a manipulative tool. He would paint an ex black to me but I would discover that he was at the same time writing to this ex begging to be friends (and telling him about dreams he had including naughty things like hotel rooms, what a way to reminiscence - again control). Maybe this was a result of lack of consistence but it certainly helped him to stay in my life creating a false reality for me- if I knew, there was no way I would have a relationship with him. I actually asked and thought the response was sufficient - that is something I'll analyse in another post about my self-awareness.

Similarly, painting others white was used for triangulation. Whatever the inner mechanism, these somehow and almost always were used in a way that sustained what he perceived as his "superior" position in this relationship. He couldn't understand a framework where both people were wanted and could be lost. It was this antagonistic thing where someone is always wanted and the other always chases. Wrong. Maybe that's why I feel I was more in a power fight than in an intimate relationship. I didn't give him an opportunity to fight, he probably felt unloved.    

Being painted white is equally disturbing for me. I'm sometimes painted white, but the content always contains something that doesn't represent me as a full human being. It's like this image that doesn't fit me. It contains something that he thinks is good about me - the angel duty that is dictated on me. Almost like a mother role. Depriving me everything

In my experience, I think, the problem was not always a big, disappointing, somehow incident that caused him paint someone black. Friendliness, calmness, stability irritated my ex. My T tells me that he thrives on chaos, he misses it , works to create it. I've read somewhere that because this first abandonment/engulfment issue, people with BPD relate love with anguish. I may have engulfed him, despite the fact that he was the needy, clingy one. But I didn't cause him enough anguish based on rejection, stringing him along, cheating - all his previous exes did this to him and he cannot get away, he wants people when he cannot have them. I feel this may be related with narcissistic control as well as engulfment/abandonment. I didn't give this to him, still that didn't make him happy and needs a reason to get away. When he doesn't paint black, he paints white, but an unwanted white. "She is so nice but I don't want her, she's dull and I'm a badass in the end of the day." When I first felt this, it was first ego-breaking somehow. But I know that it's not realistic so I find it kind of funny nowadays. I'm actually a more adventurous person than him, who is at an independent position in her life and I have tools to make many of my adventures real. In everything measurable, I live a rather liberated life and he is actually dysfunctional - employment etc, too. It's him who has been spending all his time in front of the computer sustaining his narc supply. When I told him that I felt very stuck because of his circumstances and that I chose to get stuck with him because we had to co-habit and I don't believe in leaving my partner at home and doing all my single-life hobbies that I couldn't afford for both of us - because of his endless health expenses related to an addiction he chose not to work on. (This was never my choice either, just another situation created in the relationship), he was actually so surprised. (You know the blank, round eyed, innocent narc look, right:))      

I also think painting others black or white were perhaps somehow subconsciously used to satisfy me in a strange way. My ex was an insecure person who would change his opinions in the middle of a sentence to match what he thought I was thinking at that moment - wrong guesses usually. And he had a narrow emotional palette. Maybe black and white (despite the shades) were what available to him and he doesn't see black the way I see black.  I'm a very loving, smiling, giggling person with my individual taint of goofiness but I'm also pretty rational. I'm not mushy though. My ex almost always forgot about the prior when he thought he met the latter. I think he may be finding me more scary than I think I am - this has never been a problem with more confident, secure men. Maybe, when he thought I wouldn't like something or someone (which wasn't the case actually), he thought blacking them in front of me would satisfy me. I don't know. People with passive aggressive traits do this a lot.    

[GreenEyedMonster]

Being painted white is equally disturbing for me. I'm sometimes painted white, but the content always contains something that doesn't represent me as a full human being. It's like this image that doesn't fit me. It contains something that he thinks is good about me - the angel duty that is dictated on me. Almost like a mother role. Depriving me everything

Wow, thisworld, did we have a relationship with the same person?  I keep reading about how people loved the idealization phase, but my sentiments about it mirror yours exactly.  When I was/am painted white, it's always in a kind of mother role that represents the ideal mother he never had.  I know myself that I am not pure goodness, and having that mantle thrust upon me was more unnerving than exciting.  It is like getting a job that you know you're not qualified for, that pays a ton.  You might feel good at first, but you know that every day you go to work, it's just a matter of time before your inadequacies show, so you find yourself saving all your paychecks and not enjoying them.  I felt that way through the whole relationship.  You summed up my exact feelings very well.

Like you, my ex would tell tales about how horrible his other ex was, but by that point in time, any threat of her re-entering his life was long gone.  He obviously held a lot of latent anger at her, but it seemed to me that he was mostly angry that he couldn't have/control her.  His rationalizations of why he left the relationship were flimsy, and there was DEFINITE embarrassment when he would explain it all to me, as if he knew he had acted irrationally.  I would catch him defending her and the situation occasionally.  When a relationship does not end with good closure, people -- anyone -- will resort to painting black in order to create the closure that isn't there.  So I think that when my ex regained his feelings for his ex-fiancee after she was gone, he rationalized and used a number of other defense mechanisms to explain away what he did.  However, I believe that at the time he dumped her, he actually did believe that she was sheer evil, as I explained in the other thread.  Had she come back and apologized to him, it wouldn't have taken much for him to go back, because he wasn't exactly shy about the fact that he missed the "good parts" of their relationship, even though he rationalized that she was an evil person who would have hurt him in the long run.  He told me that after he left her, he fell in love with her all over again, and had to read his journal and re-experience the bad feelings she created in order to keep from going back to her.

My ex was happy as long as I made it clear that I wasn't "all in" the relationship and didn't really trust him.  The relationship changed when I began to feel that I had a real stake in its success.  Like your ex, thisworld, the part of the relationship that caused distress and uncertainty felt good to him, but the part where he actually "got" me and all the responsibility felt like engulfment.  The wondering, longing, plucking flower petals, all that . . . the falling in love part . . . that is the only part he likes.  Frankly, I think that the role of engulfment is underestimated in a lot of BPD relationships.

The single life of pleasure with spotty employment is a familiar story to me, as is looking for "supply," though my ex preferred stage performances of various types.

[thisworld]

GEM,

If we did, I can't imagine how bad it must be for you when you split up. This "personality" flared up my OCD and gave me tremendous anxiety when we broke up. MY pure thought OCD - without visible compulsions- was nicely asleep for 6 whole years and luckily it is almost gone now again - rightful anxiety because of his volatility remains.

From what I have read, I think women voice this disturbance more than men on this site. I know two more women who were uncomfortable with this kind of white. I find this white very controlling too because deep down it says (when combined with emotional approval) "I'm offering these positive feelings on the condition that you are perfect in what I deem you perfect." I think it's only sensible, rational to feel that insecurity afterward due to the nature of the condition set upon us (why we stayed is another issue:)) Many people, for the rest of the relationship, strive to be perfect to get that approval back. Mission impossible. At first, I thought my guy was appreciating me, now I think there was an element of approval in it, too.

The rest, I think, depends on our personality and the victim role he chose to play with me. It's true that I'm an understanding person and because of the nature of our discussions, I had that role of understanding him both intellectually and emotionally. To me, it wasn't my whole self and it wasn't that extraordinary. Yes, I understand human condition - and he wasn't exactly rocket science in comparison to other things I have had to understand in life. He treated this like a very special bond and I enjoyed it to a degree, but then a lot of abusers do this very thing. Later on, because I had this, other more "attractive" attributes were not given to me. I actually know that we had a more colourful intimate life than his previous partners but he, almost as if on purpose, completely shut up about this - again, control. I also think it's pretty economical for someone seeking multiple attention to have the "understanding" person at home than vice versa. However, some other confidantes had the same role when he was character assassinating me to them. 

Relationship history is similar, my ex was anguish-obsessed and also too controlling to imagine anyone go out of his life completely. I think this is why they tend to write and write to partners from 5-6 years ago. I also think because they don't have the emotional capacity to grieve properly (which is dfferent from my ex's superficial comments accepting responsibility or admitting hurt at word level), they simply cannot let go. But they try to build new relations as well. Then we see its contradictions in different shades of black.   

My ex was more engulfed, too, I think though I saw some abandonment fears in the beginning. Maybe he hid abandonment fears from me or coped with them through sabotage, I don't know. Then I might perceive that as engulfment perhaps, I'm not sure. However, due to his private circumstances, he became dependent on me very quickly and didn't experience the chase phase - maybe, hence the good girl I don't know. But he was very jealous, though appearing uncaring. I now believe anything other than FBW is impossible with him unless the other partner is BPD, narcissistic or very very codependent herself.

[burritoman]

I've read that once you've been split black you're split black for good. I'm conflicted though considering the endless stories of them coming back for a recycle.

Anyone have any insight on this?

[Confused?]

I've read that once you've been split black you're split black for good. I'm conflicted though considering the endless stories of them coming back for a recycle.

Anyone have any insight on this?

Where did you read this? If it was from a person with experience then they just might not have been contacted yet. I've heard stories on her of people being contacted decades later. Every pwBPD is different tho. Not all examples are the same of what will happen to you.

[Confused?]

Posted twice

[GreenEyedMonster]

GEM,

If we did, I can't imagine how bad it must be for you when you split up. This "personality" flared up my OCD and gave me tremendous anxiety when we broke up. MY pure thought OCD - without visible compulsions- was nicely asleep for 6 whole years and luckily it is almost gone now again - rightful anxiety because of his volatility remains.

I think the fact that both of us have OCD is part of why we had a common experience.  The cycle of uncertainty/reassurance is powerful in a BPD relationship.  "Volatility" is the same quality I would attribute to my ex.  With my own OCD and rejection fears, I was constantly trying to reassure myself that my ex and I were a good match.  When he would change suddenly on ideas like whether or not he wanted children, it would throw me for a loop, because my sense of security about our compatibility would just fly out the window.  Things like what we were discussing in the Push-Pull thread, when my ex would be really sexually attracted to me one day and the next just roll over and snore, made me constantly on edge about what would happen next.  The volatility literally triggers addiction in pwOCD, because we get addicted to the relief.  I still find it hard to let go of this.

 

My ex was more engulfed, too, I think though I saw some abandonment fears in the beginning. Maybe he hid abandonment fears from me or coped with them through sabotage, I don't know. Then I might perceive that as engulfment perhaps, I'm not sure. However, due to his private circumstances, he became dependent on me very quickly and didn't experience the chase phase - maybe, hence the good girl I don't know. But he was very jealous, though appearing uncaring. I now believe anything other than FBW is impossible with him unless the other partner is BPD, narcissistic or very very codependent herself.

I am not sure that my ex feared me abandoning him, per se.  It rarely surfaced.  He feared me disliking him and thinking he was a bad person, but ending the relationship always seemed to provide an "out" for him, so there was never this sense of him scrambling to preserve the relationship by placating me.  I was in a relationship for 12 years with a different man who had serious abandonment/rejection fears, and he would have given me his left arm not to go away and leave him.  This engulfment thing is totally different.  He would even talk about how he was glad that his own mother was dead. 

You had asked if I think my ex had comorbid NPD.  I am really not well-versed enough in the nuances of the two disorders to say.  One thing that is sort of interesting about my ex is that he loved stage performance, despite horrible social anxiety.  Some of his stage performances were strange publicity stunts, bordering on the absurd.  I think that most people found them as strange as I did, because they gained him little attention on Facebook and such, but he seemed oblivious to the fact that others might not find things amusing.  Of course, people were just too polite to say so.  He first fell for me as I attended one of his (good) performances, but kept me from attending many of them thereafter.  I could never figure out why he subjected himself to the evaluation of others in this way, but I think it tended to boost his ego. 

For my own protection, to mitigate the sense that I am stalking him and get rid of some of the sense of engulfment, I have let my ex know loud and clear that I am dating someone else.  So far he has reacted to this by cyberstalking me more intensely, but definitely hasn't chased me to try to get me back.  I'm uneasy now because I can't tell where I stand with him.  It usually takes him about a week for his emotions to turn around and for him to take action in a different direction.  My guess is that he doesn't know what to do now.  It's entirely possible that he triggers his own engulfment fears by imagining all the things he wants to do to get me back, then triggering himself.

[burritoman]

Posted twice

If you're referring to my post, I accidentally posted this in another thread. This is the intended thread.

[Confused?]

Posted twice

If you're referring to my post, I accidentally posted this in another thread. This is the intended thread.

No I posted the same thing twice and couldn't figure out how to delete it. I didn't see my response to the person I quoted. Some things are just too hard to figure out

[thisworld]

GEM,

You say "I think the fact that both of us have OCD is part of why we had a common experience.  The cycle of uncertainty/reassurance is powerful in a BPD relationship.  "Volatility" is the same quality I would attribute to my ex.  With my own OCD and rejection fears, I was constantly trying to reassure myself that my ex and I were a good match.  When he would change suddenly on ideas like whether or not he wanted children, it would throw me for a loop, because my sense of security about our compatibility would just fly out the window.  Things like what we were discussing in the Push-Pull thread, when my ex would be really sexually attracted to me one day and the next just roll over and snore, made me constantly on edge about what would happen next.  The volatility literally triggers addiction in pwOCD, because we get addicted to the relief.  I still find it hard to let go of this."

 

I think, more than OCD itself, our personalities prone to OCD and also our abilities built around it -OCD adds strange positives to a person- may have attracted this kind of personality. And our assurance seeking is certainly an ego-booster for Cluster B sometimes. I had zero OCD during our brief relationship. I have quite a good grasp on the monster now and would have noticed even if started at simple thought- behaviour level. I also experienced zero anxiety - other than healthy reactions to triangulations etc. However, I spent years in my then-marriage with the pattern you are describing and that was difficult. In this relationship OCD flared up with what ifs after we split up - will he reach out to more critical circles to sabotage me, etc. Am I black am I white, what danger is awaiting me? I even thought about restarting our relationship and live with him just letting go for a bit before he happily left me to relieve my own anxiety. I even imagine I could do this if really bad stuff did not spread around - under our circumstances living together is now impossible. There was violence and other things and my good old mother would just die if I got back with the guy. (Look at the extent of what I'm capable of to relieve my anxiety:)) Reactions from friends don't help ("Oh, he won't do anything like that", they are invalidating. Luckily my T is very experienced in terms of emotional abuse and doesn't attribute my fears to OCD or trauma.

I don't know if you desire to build a relationship with him again, but if you want to achieve safety, many people recommend going gray rock. This way they get bored with us because we are dull and we don't get stuck in the doorway thinking what would trigger them and what wouldn't. Those what ifs don't seem to end.

Those performances (mine had similar things to a degree only, but basically he was an extroverted and performing personality without much substance -like little shows of martial arts and whatever without applying true principles, just like a bad youtube video) again remind me of gullible narcissists - they are so gullible. If they believe that something is approved or liked by others (this may not be the general feeling) they do it no matter how utterly silly or irrelevant it is. It's a bit childish and saddening sometimes. This may be his somatic aspect. My ex - actually a very handsome person for many people- didn't have the best body during our relationship but had a point of subtly attacking mine with double sided compliment-insults (not based on reality). Sex was like a performance, too and he did these little body-building shows for me (for himself really) - luckily only toward the end, I don't think I could live with that, I mean he was so serious it was crazy.

I perceive everything and everything about sex as control now. Maybe it was because of engulfment but it doesn't explain to me why those things had such a hurtful, confidence shaking effect on me - or would, if I let the relationship continue. Whatever his issues, his behaviours are textbook control through sex in emotional abuse theory, employed by entire Cluster B. Bad coincidence really.

[C.Stein]

I've read that once you've been split black you're split black for good.

I think it depends on the person.  Some might paint black forever others won't.  Perhaps it depends on the reason for painting black and how much shame and guilt are involved.  Personally I think my ex has painted me black for all time ... .it is easier and less painful than painting herself black and I don't see it changing ... .ever.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I don't know if you desire to build a relationship with him again, but if you want to achieve safety, many people recommend going gray rock. This way they get bored with us because we are dull and we don't get stuck in the doorway thinking what would trigger them and what wouldn't. Those what ifs don't seem to end.

My ex is part of my world whether I like it or not, because we share a mutual group of friends.  He continues to try to maintain friendships with them despite all of the crazy stunts he has pulled with me.  At one gathering, I ignored him and did not even talk to him, and he sent me a letter a week later threatening me with a restraining order for LOOKING at him.  That's obviously very silly and wouldn't happen, but it goes to show you the extent of his engulfment fears and how easily they are triggered.  I can disappear for weeks and he still checks for me 2-3 times a day online to see if I am "stalking" him.  There is no neutral that is neutral enough with this man.  Over four months of attempting to be nothing interesting has utterly failed.  Even just attending regular gatherings with my friends (that he knows about) makes him feel engulfed, even if he is not there.  It is as if he wants to be there, and the feeling that he'd have to see me if he came is itself engulfing, with no action on my part.  I feel like convincing him that I have moved on and have zero interest in speaking to him is my best course of action now, but nothing passive will accomplish this.  That way if I do speak to him, he'll be more likely to read it as rejection than engulfment.  I'd rather him hate me for leaving and even miss me a little.  I'm safer that way.

My OCD flared horribly DURING the relationship.  It was triggered by his rage at small slights.  He had no patience for anyone making mistakes, even honest ones.  He had a particular problem with people misrepresenting themselves while dating.  He is an incredibly self-righteous person with what appear to be (at least outwardly) high moral standards.  I was afraid that he would interpret something I said incorrectly, and it would lead him to believe I'd lied to him, and he'd leave me.  This led to a lot of truth-telling and confession compulsions on my part, especially about my previous relationships.  I sensed even at the time that forgiveness was not one of the many services he offered, so I had massive anxiety about staying in his good graces.  This is among the reasons that idealization felt awful to me.

[thisworld]

Ah, I shared 90% of my vulnerabilities with him and now am soo angry with myself:))

I love it when they have principles like having problems with people misrepresenting themselves in dating. My ex had this huuuge thing about "loyalty." Oh, the unintentional masters of projection and irony.

Are you sure that this is an engulfment fear that has gone delusional - for lack of a better word- or is he somehow still trying to pull you in because you are a sensitive person who is somehow affected by this threat of restraining order and this is a way of triggering your attention or emotions? Like for reasons of personal integrity because we have a point of not crossing anyone's boundaries?

Just as a thought, what do you think would happen if you accepted what you did (even if you didn't do that) but was unaffected? (Like, "Yes, I looked at you because firstly I am human and my eyes travel to known people, secondly because you are someone with whom I have some good memories and even though we are done, I respect you as a person. I had no intention of disturbing you and I'm sorry if you felt like that. I would totally understand if you sent me a restraining order for looking?" My ex would go blank and come to his senses for a while - also because of some narcissistic supply. If I just blanked him, he would increase the dose of attack because he can't stand being ignored - though he ignores so I communicate only when he does.

If he is delusional, this comes to my mind (I have a schizophrenic friend. Sometimes he is more lucid but he is paranoid most of the time. There is a therapeutic method that I use with him sometimes, but I don't know what this man in your life is doing so I have no idea. Still, just wanted to share this because it's interesting ) But basically, when someone is delusional or paranoid, you can increase the delusion  rather than trying to dictate or respond with sanity and do you know what, they get saner! (not writing usually because they may mistake it for sarcasm, so I do this with an empathetic voice:  "Like "Blah blah sorry but I totally understand you. I sometimes get annoyed when the cashier looks at me in the grocery. I think yesterday someone in the shop was looking at me and it was soo disturbing. If you will send me a restraining order for looking at you I would have to accept that I guess. Everybody has the right to protect themselves within legal limits. You know, if you sue me and ask for compensation for looking at you, I would understand that, too." My friend says "stop exaggerating" which is recovery for him:)) Or he says "you are a nutcase, you f*cking crazy" but stops pestering me. But then, my friend is sincerely delusional, he doesn't have narcissistic or manipulative motives and I'm 100 per cent sure.

And I see that I'm reacting to my ex differently. My thing is, I have this engulfment and abandonment theory in my hands but in reality  may never read him accurately. Because I was in an intimate relationship, there is always that ego-factor which makes him mask certain things around me. Engulfment may have always started earlier than I thought, abandonment may have resulted in him completely sabotaging things (rather than getting closer) or because he is also aware of his patterns to a degree, he may change certain things slowly. My ex partner also imitates what he thinks are my patterns (he usually misunderstands though) - sometimes unknowingly and sometimes to teach me a lesson. So I focus on his control aspect. I try to see what may be manipulative - even if consciously-  try not to respond to that or not give the reactions he may expect from me, try offer him a bit of something soothing - irrelevant to the topic in hand. It is effective to a degree - I don't know why, maybe because it is slightly confusing him. I never respond with what he would expect from my real personality but do not do the complete opposite either.