Was she BPD? Or just young?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I don’t know what to think anymore, and I come here to vent. Advice would be good, but I just need to vent. And I am so sorry for how long this is. I was getting such a great understanding of my own nature, and able to discern between intuition and paranoia, but this has left me confused. Was I having a love affair with a BPD? Or was it merely the fact she is still a teenager and that she is still young, dependent, and immature with an obsessive crush that turned into love? Or am I the one that is messed up, seeing myself as some narcissistic rescuer? Am I cultivating a paranoid personality? I truly do want to help people, but I have to accept it’s ultimately up to them to save themselves (I’ll save that for the end).

For signs that point to BPD, I will highlight as red; for signs that point to her being rational, reflective, and seem in contrast to what I read here and elsewhere, I will highlight green

I definitely concede the following: I may be reading too much into her actions and it may be indicative of anxiety, and concurrently I may be excusing things.

It wasn’t so long ago, and I feel silly that this has impacted me so hard. It was early October 2014 when I returned to my hometown for a friend’s birthday. I began talking to a girl that I knew of – since everyone knows of everyone in the hometown – and was immediately taken back by how charming, sweet and discerning she was. She had mentioned she knew of me and had read some of my posts on Tumblr, which are mainly reflections of my own mind, meaning she already had a fair idea of who I was more than most others in real life. She was a romanticist, like me. We bonded over our mutual love for words and poetry and we added each other on Facebook.

I returned to my current city and we were talking nonstop. But I found out her age and she found out my age: she was 17 and I was 22 (legal). I spoke about my concerns about this, but she found it attractive. From where I am from, the age difference wasn’t that big of a deal, but I couldn’t escape the concerns. I haven’t been very successful with girls over the years, and would surmise that I am emotionally stunted, and I couldn’t deny that the sheer amount of attention, devotion and attraction she was exhibiting, was flattering to my ego (more on that later). I noticed that she would begin to mimic the way I typed, and express interests that I was interested in (so what? Who doesn’t do this?)  I knew that she wasn’t so much interested in them as she let on, however it was her way to create interest and a connection. It was flattering. How easily she was getting attached, and indeed myself, was so fast. We would make ‘jokes’ such as ‘Happy One Week Anniversary’ since talking. I returned to my hometown for the night and didn’t have the chance to see her, and said I won’t be able to. She initially understood but said she was “pretty annoyed to be honest” and that she has the ability to go from “sweet to crazy within two seconds.” She was very distraught. I woke up in the middle of the night with a series of drunken abuse due to not seeing her, including saying she is about to be raped and that I can get ___ed. “Show some ___ing sympathy.” I was awake receiving these messages, and I could see they were being abusive, so I was frightened to open them. I messaged her the next day saying that I am sorry that I didn’t’ get to see her but I had no time, and if this is the way she is going to treat me, then we may have to reconsider our friendship. Using her own emotions of anger to manipulate my own was ___, and it was wrong of me to perhaps get so involved so quickly. She apologised profusely and observed it’s a side of her seldom expressed, and that she just wanted to see me. Less than two weeks, she said she hasn't felt so strongly for anyone before. To be honest, the anger petrified me.

We were talking sexually and we expressed the mutual l desire to have sex with each other. The age difference, while an issue, heightened some fetish taboo of dominance/submissive. She seemed to be accepting any fantasy I would project onto her, but saying that she shares similar fantasies. “Jigsaw fetishes,” we dubbed it. Again, I loved that attention. But I was seeing more of her dimensions and I didn’t want this to ruin the friendship that we have. I couldn’t escape the fact I felt like I was using her, and mentioned my doubts about this, but she assured me it is something she wants and is looking forward to. She came to my house and we had sex. I didn’t want her to get emotionally attached (because I was scared of getting emotionally attached), and she asked me afterwards if she should suppress her feelings? I said no and that one needs to be honest with themselves how they are feeling. She nearly had a panic attack when she couldn’t find her bra, uttering like “this is not okay, this is not okay.” The more we hung out, the more I became more emotionally immersed in how beautiful she was underneath. Was I falling in love with an idealised potential? She was capable of being bossy and manipulative, but the awe in her eyes about things and how intuitive she was and how her sense of humor was so in tune with my own caught my own heart. She would say things like “I am worried” and then when she would see my concern, she had this sense of terror that I may be distant from her and then deny saying it. “Oh, I just say silly things.” We would chat about our thoughts of the world and hours would go by in a second. But I hated how she would be bossy, such as saying she hated my beard. Or that she wanted me to make the decisions, and yet it was her making the decision for me to make the decisions. I’d point this out to her, and she would laugh and say I know. But then we would shower together and brush each other’s teeth. I was scared she was going to get emotionally attached, but it was me that was scared of getting emotionally attached (more about that at the end). I’d teach her about the Buddhistic notions of impermanence etc and how attaching onto an idea will lead to suffering. When she would leave she would send me messages saying she is making her write more of a better person. I asked for no mind games. She agreed.

When we would talk she would admit to things as being “I’m a pretty good actress” (apparently she got ADHD medication from a psychiatrist by faking and feeling the symptoms) and manipulating guys when drunk. She would say “I idealised all the boys in my past but I actualy don’t think I’m idealising you.” I felt like not just her lover, but also her teacher. She agreed. And the fear fact she had these intensified emotions made me gravitate towards her more. Being with her, especially watching a sunset, felt like a dream. Time had frozen. We both felt it. It was like something out of a romance novel.

Keep in mind, this all occurred within a month first meeting. It all happened so fast. But we both rushed into it. I read her Tumblr and just a couple of weeks before me there would be poems about emptiness, poems about idealising other guys (though she always uses the term boys), and then breaking up with another guy in August. It seems, after her breakup, she was moving from one guy to the next to fill the void. I’d be more aware of her insecurities and battles, but I’d emphasise how, especially based on my own history of low self-esteem issues, you need to learn to love yourself. You need to fill yourself with love. It was foolish to deny, however, we were not being dependent on each other in some capacity. I guess I was saying this because I knew it to be true, but it was as much about my own personality flaws as I was seeing in her.

She would lie to her mother about coming to visit because she was scared of the age differences. She would resort to intuitive crying on the phone like a child. I couldn't help wonder how she seemed to be emotionally arrested like a child. I was as well, even if both of us were legal. But I hated her lying to her mother. She would be an anxious wreck leaving my room in case she bumped into my housemate. She would regularly bad mouth her ex-boyfriend to me and see him as the worst person in the world because of his regular attempts to control her, though I knew him before I knew her and he was always a passive guy. It’s not uncommon for teenagers – or indeed humans – to think negatively of past exes. Anytime she would say anything negative, I would fear reacting in case she blew up like the time I didn’t see her, and everything lovely she had said to me will be taken back, and therefore attack me. But I would point out that it was rude. I always felt that because of the age difference, I had a responsibility? I don’t know. She actually liked me debating her, and would encourage it.

In late November, less than two months of first meeting (what the ___), she was off to Europe for a month for an exchange program. I wrote her a story somewhat based on our tale and mentioned that since we aren’t fully committed, I understand if she will find other guys attractive and get with them. A part of me desperately didn’t want it to happen, but I know travelling abroad is such a rare opportunity, and the high that ensues cannot be denied. She assured me I am the only one she wants and I am in her veins. She’s never had anybody ‘know’ her like I do just by looking into her eyes. She wanted to take my film camera and pleaded and would act super sweet until I gave in and make it seem like I made the choice.[/color In hindsight, I still don’t regret this, because I am genuinely happy that it complimented her experience. She also ‘accidentally’ stole my t-shirt.

So, she is now in Europe and having the time of her life. I see photos of her with new friends, male and female, and I feel urges of jealousy that I find absolutely irrational and disgusting because I know deep down she should be having all of this happiness, and by imposing my own insecurities onto her journey seems unfair, especially as I was the one that initially warned we couldn’t get attached. But, I think by saying I accepted the fact that she may get with other guys was passively indicating that I was insecure about it? I did point this out but I was trying to overcome it.

As the absence grew, so too did my desire to have her as mine. She was the first person I’ve ever emotionally connected with sex (more about that later). I couldn’t deny it and I noticed how her snapchat friends were three other guys. That hurt. I wanted her to be mine. When I communicated my insecurities, after reassuring me, it would almost seem she would mimic my own insecurities, such as: “I just woke up from a dream where you were having sex with one of my friends and it hurt but it’s okay.” When drunk she would message or snapchat me asking to pay her attention and that she is feeling intense bouts of loneliness, or that she is paranoid that everyone hates her. I found it so bizarre how, intellectually, she had a good grasp on concepts, her mind and others; however, emotionally, she would literally act like a child. But even when she did, she would often follow it up by self-awareness that she is “acting like a five year old.” and apologise pretty soon afterwards. My paranoid mind wondered if she was lying just to get attention, or if she was an insecure teenager. Or both? This was the first time of BPD crossing my mind. On New Years Eve, with her in Europe, I wanted her to be mine and basically asked her out. I said we can move past the age differences and people would accept us. She wrote back, “Yes, I am exclusively yours.” I had never asked out a girl before because of fears of rejection and it felt amazing to have the girl I fell in love with to be now called mine. But I guess I thought that would remove the insecurities and jealousies.

We had a phone call and she asked if I still like her. I said that you have to trust that I love her and she apologised afterwards saying she is just feeling lonely and insecure. After this phone call, five days after New Year’s Eve, and for the first time since early October, she suddenly stopped messaging me and replying to me. I was still paranoid, insecure, and jealous. I hated it. ‘Why the sudden silence?’ This was so unlike her. ‘What happens if she is sleeping around with other guys? She grew attached to me so easily, therefore it is replicable. Am I a fool for falling for her? She’s only 17!’ There were brief words spoken but nothing demonstrative and it all seemed a tad passive aggressive at times. In middle of January she was returning from Europe, and said that “Everything is so different.”

[CarlJungJr]

I don’t know what to think anymore, and I come here to vent. Advice would be good, but I just need to vent. And I am so sorry for how long this is. I was getting such a great understanding of my own nature, and able to discern between intuition and paranoia, but this has left me confused. Was I having a love affair with a BPD? Or was it merely the fact she is still a teenager and that she is still young, dependent, and immature with an obsessive crush that turned into love? Or am I the one that is messed up, seeing myself as some narcissistic rescuer? Am I cultivating a paranoid personality? I truly do want to help people, but I have to accept it’s ultimately up to them to save themselves (I’ll save that for the end).

For signs that point to BPD, I will highlight as red; for signs that point to her being rational, reflective, and seem in contrast to what I read here and elsewhere, I will highlight green

I definitely concede the following: I may be reading too much into her actions and it may be indicative of anxiety, and concurrently I may be excusing things.

It wasn’t so long ago, and I feel silly that this has impacted me so hard. It was early October 2014 when I returned to my hometown for a friend’s birthday. I began talking to a girl that I knew of – since everyone knows of everyone in the hometown – and was immediately taken back by how charming, sweet and discerning she was. She had mentioned she knew of me and had read some of my posts on Tumblr, which are mainly reflections of my own mind, meaning she already had a fair idea of who I was more than most others in real life. She was a romanticist, like me. We bonded over our mutual love for words and poetry and we added each other on Facebook.

I returned to my current city and we were talking nonstop. But I found out her age and she found out my age: she was 17 and I was 22 (legal). I spoke about my concerns about this, but she found it attractive. From where I am from, the age difference wasn’t that big of a deal, but I couldn’t escape the concerns. I haven’t been very successful with girls over the years, and would surmise that I am emotionally stunted, and I couldn’t deny that the sheer amount of attention, devotion and attraction she was exhibiting, was flattering to my ego (more on that later). I noticed that she would begin to mimic the way I typed, and express interests that I was interested in (so what? Who doesn’t do this?)  I knew that she wasn’t so much interested in them as she let on, however it was her way to create interest and a connection. It was flattering. How easily she was getting attached, and indeed myself, was so fast. We would make ‘jokes’ such as ‘Happy One Week Anniversary’ since talking. I returned to my hometown for the night and didn’t have the chance to see her, and said I won’t be able to. She initially understood but said she was “pretty annoyed to be honest” and that she has the ability to go from “sweet to crazy within two seconds.” She was very distraught. I woke up in the middle of the night with a series of drunken abuse due to not seeing her, including saying she is about to be raped and that I can get ___ed. “Show some ___ing sympathy.” I was awake receiving these messages, and I could see they were being abusive, so I was frightened to open them. I messaged her the next day saying that I am sorry that I didn’t’ get to see her but I had no time, and if this is the way she is going to treat me, then we may have to reconsider our friendship. Using her own emotions of anger to manipulate my own was ___, and it was wrong of me to perhaps get so involved so quickly. She apologised profusely and observed it’s a side of her seldom expressed, and that she just wanted to see me. Less than two weeks, she said she hasn't felt so strongly for anyone before. To be honest, the anger petrified me.

We were talking sexually and we expressed the mutual l desire to have sex with each other. The age difference, while an issue, heightened some fetish taboo of dominance/submissive. She seemed to be accepting any fantasy I would project onto her, but saying that she shares similar fantasies. “Jigsaw fetishes,” we dubbed it. Again, I loved that attention. But I was seeing more of her dimensions and I didn’t want this to ruin the friendship that we have. I couldn’t escape the fact I felt like I was using her, and mentioned my doubts about this, but she assured me it is something she wants and is looking forward to. She came to my house and we had sex. I didn’t want her to get emotionally attached (because I was scared of getting emotionally attached), and she asked me afterwards if she should suppress her feelings? I said no and that one needs to be honest with themselves how they are feeling. She nearly had a panic attack when she couldn’t find her bra, uttering like “this is not okay, this is not okay.” The more we hung out, the more I became more emotionally immersed in how beautiful she was underneath. Was I falling in love with an idealised potential? She was capable of being bossy and manipulative, but the awe in her eyes about things and how intuitive she was and how her sense of humor was so in tune with my own caught my own heart. She would say things like “I am worried” and then when she would see my concern, she had this sense of terror that I may be distant from her and then deny saying it. “Oh, I just say silly things.” We would chat about our thoughts of the world and hours would go by in a second. But I hated how she would be bossy, such as saying she hated my beard. Or that she wanted me to make the decisions, and yet it was her making the decision for me to make the decisions. I’d point this out to her, and she would laugh and say I know. But then we would shower together and brush each other’s teeth. I was scared she was going to get emotionally attached, but it was me that was scared of getting emotionally attached (more about that at the end). I’d teach her about the Buddhistic notions of impermanence etc and how attaching onto an idea will lead to suffering. When she would leave she would send me messages saying she is making her write more of a better person. I asked for no mind games. She agreed.

When we would talk she would admit to things as being “I’m a pretty good actress” (apparently she got ADHD medication from a psychiatrist by faking and feeling the symptoms) and manipulating guys when drunk. She would say “I idealised all the boys in my past but I actualy don’t think I’m idealising you.” I felt like not just her lover, but also her teacher. She agreed. And the fear fact she had these intensified emotions made me gravitate towards her more. Being with her, especially watching a sunset, felt like a dream. Time had frozen. We both felt it. It was like something out of a romance novel.

Keep in mind, this all occurred within a month first meeting. It all happened so fast. But we both rushed into it. I read her Tumblr and just a couple of weeks before me there would be poems about emptiness, poems about idealising other guys (though she always uses the term boys), and then breaking up with another guy in August. It seems, after her breakup, she was moving from one guy to the next to fill the void. I’d be more aware of her insecurities and battles, but I’d emphasise how, especially based on my own history of low self-esteem issues, you need to learn to love yourself. You need to fill yourself with love. It was foolish to deny, however, we were not being dependent on each other in some capacity. I guess I was saying this because I knew it to be true, but it was as much about my own personality flaws as I was seeing in her.

She would lie to her mother about coming to visit because she was scared of the age differences. She would resort to intuitive crying on the phone like a child. I couldn't help wonder how she seemed to be emotionally arrested like a child. I was as well, even if both of us were legal. But I hated her lying to her mother. She would be an anxious wreck leaving my room in case she bumped into my housemate. She would regularly bad mouth her ex-boyfriend to me and see him as the worst person in the world because of his regular attempts to control her, though I knew him before I knew her and he was always a passive guy. It’s not uncommon for teenagers – or indeed humans – to think negatively of past exes. Anytime she would say anything negative, I would fear reacting in case she blew up like the time I didn’t see her, and everything lovely she had said to me will be taken back, and therefore attack me. But I would point out that it was rude. I always felt that because of the age difference, I had a responsibility? I don’t know. She actually liked me debating her, and would encourage it.

In late November, less than two months of first meeting (what the ___), she was off to Europe for a month for an exchange program. I wrote her a story somewhat based on our tale and mentioned that since we aren’t fully committed, I understand if she will find other guys attractive and get with them. A part of me desperately didn’t want it to happen, but I know travelling abroad is such a rare opportunity, and the high that ensues cannot be denied. She assured me I am the only one she wants and I am in her veins. She’s never had anybody ‘know’ her like I do just by looking into her eyes. She wanted to take my film camera and pleaded and would act super sweet until I gave in and make it seem like I made the choice.[/color In hindsight, I still don’t regret this, because I am genuinely happy that it complimented her experience. She also ‘accidentally’ stole my t-shirt.

So, she is now in Europe and having the time of her life. I see photos of her with new friends, male and female, and I feel urges of jealousy that I find absolutely irrational and disgusting because I know deep down she should be having all of this happiness, and by imposing my own insecurities onto her journey seems unfair, especially as I was the one that initially warned we couldn’t get attached. But, I think by saying I accepted the fact that she may get with other guys was passively indicating that I was insecure about it? I did point this out but I was trying to overcome it.

As the absence grew, so too did my desire to have her as mine. She was the first person I’ve ever emotionally connected with sex (more about that later). I couldn’t deny it and I noticed how her snapchat friends were three other guys. That hurt. I wanted her to be mine. When I communicated my insecurities, after reassuring me, it would almost seem she would mimic my own insecurities, such as: “I just woke up from a dream where you were having sex with one of my friends and it hurt but it’s okay.” When drunk she would message or snapchat me asking to pay her attention and that she is feeling intense bouts of loneliness, or that she is paranoid that everyone hates her. I found it so bizarre how, intellectually, she had a good grasp on concepts, her mind and others; however, emotionally, she would literally act like a child. But even when she did, she would often follow it up by self-awareness that she is “acting like a five year old.” and apologise pretty soon afterwards. My paranoid mind wondered if she was lying just to get attention, or if she was an insecure teenager. Or both? This was the first time of BPD crossing my mind. On New Years Eve, with her in Europe, I wanted her to be mine and basically asked her out. I said we can move past the age differences and people would accept us. She wrote back, “Yes, I am exclusively yours.” I had never asked out a girl before because of fears of rejection and it felt amazing to have the girl I fell in love with to be now called mine. But I guess I thought that would remove the insecurities and jealousies.

We had a phone call and she asked if I still like her. I said that you have to trust that I love her and she apologised afterwards saying she is just feeling lonely and insecure. After this phone call, five days after New Year’s Eve, and for the first time since early October, she suddenly stopped messaging me and replying to me. I was still paranoid, insecure, and jealous. I hated it. ‘Why the sudden silence?’ This was so unlike her. ‘What happens if she is sleeping around with other guys? She grew attached to me so easily, therefore it is replicable. Am I a fool for falling for her? She’s only 17!’ There were brief words spoken but nothing demonstrative and it all seemed a tad passive aggressive at times. In middle of January she was returning from Europe, and said that “Everything is so different.”

[CarlJungJr]

After a couple of nights of just brief words, I couldn’t stand it anymore. She seemed to resent the fact I was showing affection towards her. I was the one now paranoid and needy. It seemed now that she had gotten what she want, our roles had reversed. It seemed that as soon as she got what she wanted, which was me, she pushed me away. I saw a Snapchat from her friend of her hugging her ex bf that she apparently hates. I asked her why the silence? I asked her why teh snapchat? I mentioned how it feels like when we don’t communicate romantically or sexually, she passively resents what I say, and I have passive responses in return. I asked her had she been speaking with other guys? She replied back that she was scared because of the age differences and our different stages in life, responsibility of a full relationship hurts her which is decreasing her attraction, and that four guys had confessed their love to her in the last two weeks in Europe. She said she felt so guilty and that she thought she could handle things but she can’t, and feels she led them on and is a ‘selfish b___’. “I do not want more heartbreak but it feels like my heart is being clawed out of my chest.” She said the photo was just a away to be mean to him, and feels bad about that. More of her self insight is that she cannot live with validation from guys, but never thought it devalued our connection because of how highly she thought of me. I also appreciated the apparent honesty - unless it was a story - rather than denying it profusely. I mean, people with BPD could have easily gotten away with that and never conceding they are wrong? I actually felt a sense of relief that I was not so paranoid. Would someone with BPD provide this self-insight, or would they have lashed out? Or is the self-insight a way to emotionally escape punishment from others if she has the realisation? Maybe I enforced this in her by saying I appreciate her self insight? And I never wanted my own unresolved issues to adversely affect her. I said that while it hurt, I don’t want to impose on her own life experiences at this stage. While we have a connection, it is obvious we are in different stages of our lives. Neither of us wanted to let go, but it appeared this is where we were heading. And I would emphasise again that I have to accept I can’t help her, and she has to help herself, but I feel I was saying that because deep down I wanted to be the one to help her, and also the fact I need to be the one to help myself, when in the past I have always depended on others. But is that different to being a rescuer? Is there a difference between being a rescuer and a teacher? And then I would follow it up by saying I feel there is issues in her childhood and her psychology intrigues me. She would thank me for making her realise how toxic it is to manipulate guys and seek validation, but now that my trust felt damaged (that wasn’t really there in the first place), I was paranoid and wondered if she was just telling me things I wished to hear to appease me and the fact that I am the one who is the catalyst for these realizations. I wondered this about everything she ever said to me.

Anyway, she came here the day before my birthday, and we fell back into our dream. We had sex. At one point she got upset and went under the covers crying, because I said something, but she quickly got over that like a lightswitch. We showered again together. At some points it felt like everything would be okay. That is, of course, until she would freak out about my housemate or going down the street with me. At one point she called me a pushover, but then apologised. I said we didn’t have to have sex, but she wanted to as she loves being close to me and enjoys the feeling. We went to a park where we first kissed and, for the first time, used the words of love. I expressed how hurt I was about the messaging. I asked her if I asked for the full extent of it, would she let me know? She looked scared and said “probably not.” We talked more about things and she confessed to me that when she was 9 and 10 that her 16 year old cousin used to touch her. She said she doesn’t really remember it and thinks he’s changed. I said I hate your cousin and she would try and defend him. I felt that this made sense to do with how she is so dependent, but then I thought she may have been telling me this just to appease my idea that she is messed up. She let me know she has slept with 6 people since losing her virginity a year ago, and that only two were out of love – me and her ex-boyfriend. [/b]She said she knows why she sleeps with guys randomly when drunk. That it is always to “cope with something” or “fill a void”. And it was her choice, but one probably shouldn’t have happened.

The next day I couldn’t handle it, and I had to ask her the full extent of it. I asked her if she kissed someone and she said “no” but the look in her eyes gave it away. “You did, I know it,” I reluctantly observed. “Well, if it counts, I was drunk,” she said with a sense of guilt and shame. She initially said it was before New Year’s Eve, and therefore it was when we announced exclusivity; but she soon said it was after New Year’s Eve, and therefore when she was having doubt. I pointed out to her she just lied then by saying no, and then she tried to deny to me she ever said no just a mere two minutes ago. I truly resented that, even if it was from fear. That hurt. But I knew it was fear. And I knew she was 17 who wanted too much and it imploded. And I warned against this due to my fear by saying attraction wasn’t exclusive etc. She then said she couldn’t do this, and I was actually admiring the level of insight: “I want to do this so badly. But you see how I react with just your housemate. How will I do with my family and everyone else? You are amazing but I am so scared.” I understood, but mentioned that if that wasn’t the issue, we still have the other issue of trust.

We reflected a bit more and she admitted she purposely took my t-shirt to be close to me. I suspected this was the case, and took it as a twisted compliment. We reflected on how intense our time together was, and how crazy it was that we rushed into it so easily. We observed humorously we are both fairly crazy, but neither of us regretted it. She mentioned how she sees herself as a trope called the Manic Pixie Dream Girl – something I had never heard of until then. I read about that and the correlation with BPD, Covert Narcsissm here: www.therawness.com/manic-pixie-dream ... .love-them/. We cried together and it was the first time I have cried to that extent or many years. She left and hid my gifts under my douna and I cried some more, listening to songs that reminded me of her. It felt beautiful to finally release a torrent of tears that I had desperately wanted to do so. At 22, I finally had my first broken heart. She sent me a message on Facebook for existing and how the world had never seemed so beautiful until with me. She also apologised profusely for the other guys in Europe and how for the first time she realises she has a lot of maturing and growing up to do, and thanked me for shwoing her and making her attempt to be a better person.

I went to a music festival the next day and turned 23. So much had just happened in such a short amount of time. I couldn’t help feeling dethatched from what was clearly an interconnected and from I took LSD – as LSD had always been in the past a potently theurpatic and spiritual experience for me. Perhaps I was seeing patterns that were not there, but I truly felt that she was a beautiful soul who acts out of pain, and to condemn or feel anger towards her would do disservice. I desperately wanted her to be the best person she could be, but I had to let her go. I also had some reflections on myself that I’ll save for the end.

Throughout February she would message me occasionally and ask if I still missed her. I asked her why and she said because "to know I am going through this heartache alone makes it so much easier. I am going through a crippling sadness the past few days and I can't do that because otherwise I won't get anything done." I would say that she has a major place in my heart and I do love her but I have to learn to love her without needing her as mine. She would say she had a dream that I kissed one of her friends and it hurt. I said that we need to look out for ourselves. I resented her for using me to feel good again, but when she stopped talking to me, I would start to miss her and actually like the idea of her attention. I guess I was using her too? I hated this because I knew that was coming from dependent love as opposed to the unconditional love that I desperately wished to cultivate, but I knew this dependency was largely engrained in my psychology. I would sometimes still get paranoid that she was messaging other guys, and I felt this was absolutely ludicrous of myself. We had to let each other go. And yet, we were still clinging onto this hope that “the future will be bright for us.” She promised she would stop sending me lovey messages, even though I loved it too, I wanted her to let go of the pain.

She asked me a couple of weeks ago if she thinks I need to let go. I said that if it is causing her pain, she needs to. But I will always love her. Did I deep down not want her to let go of not feeling loved? It all felt like a cognitive dissonance between my neurotic side and my wise side. She said how every guy she has spoken to since me – because she feels getting over someone is talking to others – has just not been the same. I asked her what she felt the difference between loving someone for them and loving someone out of need for attention/missing them. Her answer was one of selflessness and loving someone for their flaws. My paranoid mind wondered if this was her merely parroting what I may have said earlier, or her Googling the answer. She admitted that she does come out of loneliness episodes but it’s hard for her to not have someone as she doesn’t have many close friends, and she has never really been using to not having a romantic partner.

She began to be attention seeking, though was referencing the fact it was the case. “It’s not fair you won’t let me see you. *Stamps feet and acts like a 5 year old*” and would get upset that I hadn’t replied to her messages, and she regretted letting me go. This reminded me of a few months ago, and was quite the contrast to the previous insight she had. "Can't we just fall into our dream again?" "This is either something or it isn't." I let her know that it’s difficult for me to see her because seeing her reminds me of why I want her as mine, but when I want her as mine, I am reminded of the mistrust. She apologised profusely again, saying things like “maybe I just want what I don’t have and like the novelty”. I had suppressed the pain and hatred towards her previously, leaving it for my notebook, but I expounded on how much it hurt me. “I was foolish to think boys just wanted me platonically, though I did lead them on.” She said that the other guys thing happened before New Years Eve, and when I confessed me wanting to go out with her, she had to break their hearts. I mentioned the contradicting stories, and asked her if she had any insight into her lies. She agreed that lying in this situation is immoral, that she doesn’t even know what she’s told me, but often it is for the greater good to protect herself or others. And it comes to a point where she actually believes her lies, but she hasn’t really seen herself as a liar. She continued that she is okay with not talking anymore if it would make me happy.

She mentioned to me more sexual trauma, and I still don’t know whether it’s the truth or she is saying that to seek attention, appease my ego that she’s a victim, and sustain the emotional dependence. She said she was reading her diary when she was 12 and had sex with someone. Throughout the 6 years she has been unsure if it happened and the past couple years truly believed she didn’t in order to not feel regretful and guilty. She feels she may have even lied in her diary, but knows that’s not the case, and feels this is relevant how her lies become truth and manipulate her memory. She’s glad she doesn’t remember because she would feel a lot worse. She feels distant and it was mostly consensual, though she would have said “no” if she could and felt pressured. She concluded by thanking her for helping her learn, pushing her to do better, and that admitting one’s flaws isn’t always a bad thing, though the growth would have happened regardless. “I am so pleased with who I'm becoming and I'm so happy that I'm becoming less of a $#%^ person. A lot of ___ed up ___ may have happened to me, and I may have done a lot of ___ed up ___ too, but that's OKAY and I'm OKAY and I am going to be aware, overcome and be OKAY.”

I said to her that she would need to see a psychologist and I cannot help her, but I am so sorry that happened. She said that there was nothing scarring when I seemed to not have given her as much attention to it? The thing is she said this just before I said her psychology intrigues me, so once more I feel that I invited her to say these things and reinforce what interests. As soon as I said “your psychology intrigues me”, I felt it was coming from a narcissistic side. It does interest me, and she has such an interesting mind and I can’t help but wonder how her childhood impacted on who she is today.

We talked a bit more and conceded it is hard dealing with these emotions, but everytime she brings it up I feel she is using me because the other guys aren't providing her what she needs? I keep switching in my beliefs. She finally put the money in for the developed film last night.

[CarlJungJr]

Reflections on her:

What good will it do me if I am able to associate a label towards her actions? Does it provide me a greater leverage for compassion? Categorising mental conditions into diagnostic criteria has a wide range of benefits in treatment, but I should not get it confused with reality. The reality is what I am seeing; a diagnosis is only secondary.

I initially liked to excuse it for age and her immaturity, but I cannot escape the feeling it is something more enduring. Wit comes to her emotions, the fact is this: she is volatile. Despite her self insight and awareness, it will not be the cure herself. But then I ask again: what girl, especially at the age of 17, isn’t emotionally volatile? I don’t want to demonize her. Her inclinations to control, manipulate or be bossy all seem to be self-defensive, to overcompensate, for an insecure person. Is this the capacity for Borderline Personality Disorder? A high conflict person? The mimicry (a lack of self), badmouthing and devaluating others,

It pains me greatly that I go through bouts of distrusting everything she has ever said. Has she been manipulating more than I realise? The inconsistencies in some of her tales: she fell in love with me before we met, and then the second time. She broke other guys’ hearts once I confessed my desire to be with her, but other times it was messaging them afterwards and hence the confusion. I don’t for a minute believe she was innocent. For someone who gets overwhelmed with others and sees them as “beautiful”, I feel that Even the small things when she was trying to woo me: “Oops I accidentally messaged you a message which was meant to go to someone else.”

Sometimes I go through bouts where I think she was providing me self-insight just to appease me. Other times I think she is believing her tales, as she confessed herself. And other times I just think she is a beautiful human being with demons, a shadow like we all have (Carl Jung), that I truly hope she can overcome and be aware of. Acceptance is the beginning. And I have to admit I can’t help her. But what happens if her manipulative, bossy personality is too much and the idea that she is a beautiful soul underneath has elements of idealisation and projection? Did I, once again, fall for a girl that was a projection of my ideal girl? No girl is perfect. And if I truly do love her, I have to accept her demons.

But when she reflects on how girls are distancing herself because they are intimidated by her, and then immediately follows it up with, "actually, it is actually because I am distancing myself because I feel everyone hates me but that is not the case because people are nice to me." does not deny her ability to reflect.

And other times I think it was all a lie. “I’m a pretty good actor.” What happens if she was in love with multiple people? What happens if it was just an emotional front just to hurt me? When she cried the day we had to end it, her emotions were so normal once more. I recently read a study that to sense crocodile tears is to sense the transition of emotions: normal crying should be followed by neutral emotions.

Were her responses on love genuine or just what I wanted to hear? Maybe she can see people more than just black and white? It made me so happy when she explained how love is selfless and she loves me despite all my faults.

Did she lie about the sexual trauma? Or was it because I said I feel she has had a troubled childhood to account for some of her actions a reason to provide me such an explanation? Even if it is a lie, it still indicates there is issue and there is pain. Is it common to lie about sexual trauma? Especially when we spoke about memory distortion? Is there a link between being stuck in the mind of a child when it comes to sexuality because of sexual trauma?

But then does that mean I am excusing because of the past?

Then I think of the times she would miss me and cling to me so easily, and how her father abandoned her. Is there a link between abandonment issues in parenthood and BPD?

What do I love about her? I loved how she was so immersed in people and the world, how intuitive she was, and how she would see beauty in things others would overlook.

Reflections on me:

But was it me that was messed up? Were we in what is commonly referred to as a codependent connection based on rescuer and victim?

For so long I haven’t truly loved myself. I have battled social anxiety. I have been a perfectionist. I procrastinate so much because I fear failure. It is through meditation, much introspection and realizing the illusory nature of my own mind that I have tried to better. But being with her has handicapped the process exponentially. I have battled reading between the lines, and I have battled being so focused on myself.

Am I the one trying to control her by trying to fix her? Does this give me some sense of power? Some sense of importance? Does it make me the sane one? Does it avoid my own healing and allow me to focus on another?

For so many years I have regularly read between the lines and interpreted statements as an attack against my ego. In my better days I have learned to cultivate empathy and love for my own ailing, and meditate on them, but they still resurface and often delude reality. At the moment I am convinced boht my father and cousin are narcissists, and in bad days think they are intentionally out to get me. But for what? Am I internalizing conflict? What happens if they are? Does this mean that I am not the most special person in the world?

I depended on my mother for so much until she died when I was 12. My dad wouldn’t let me express my emotions and I felt so detached from the experience. I couldn’t do anything for myself, and I would feel shame and guilt if I was failing at something. She truly made me out to be the most special person in the world. Today, I try to avoid things that make me feel anxiety about this. And then at the same time, after fighting with dad, she would seek my own advice about what they should do. She would be at my bed, drunk, and cry to me because she respects a 10 year old’s opinion.

Last year I found my mother’s diary of when she herself was 22-23. It communicated her anxieties about being “paranoid about other people”.

I would scrutinize my mother for things that I didn’t like about her and try to change her constantly. Is this, plus the desire to heal, manifesting in my attraction? It seems that every girl I have had a crush or feelings for has had some issue that I felt I could be the savior.

I would carefully monitor her drinking and be highly intuitive to any signs of discomfort. I would avoid at all costs for her to drink because her drinking would cause my dad and her to get into fights. When my mother would observe negative traits in my dad that he didn’t want to face, these would explode in rage and he would hit my mum.

I seem to be therefore very scared of any conflict and have had the past to avoid it at all conflicts. It seems it is me that is just as guilty as seeing things in black and white. My illusory mind thinks the following: if a conflict ensues, it means they hate me.

But what is truly love? I have to accept that nobody is perfect, and my projection of an idealised girl is entirely fictitious. Did I love my mum if much of it was codependency and trying to change them? Of course I loved my mother, and she loved me, and she had nothing but the best intentions. But then I wonder if I truly like anyone? It seems that with so many people that their negative qualities

passively irk me, I do not vent them, and I almost resent them for not being perfect? I want to truly love her, or indeed someone, without resorting to overreading messages and playing mind games that may just be a creation of me.

17 and 22? Is that so much. It seems we played into how big of a deal it was, and she seemed to like the power. I did too. Again, am I the one that wants control and we were in some mind games control battle? She was the first girl that I didn’t suppress my emotions with. Girls before her were usually drunken sex and a way to escape from my feelings. And with girls that I Did have feelings for, I would idolize from a far and avoid telling them in fear that rejection would break my heart and damage my internally perfect image of myself.

I observe my dad’s desperate need for approval and denial of negative emotions, and I can see it so much in myself. My ego refuses to admit that the paranoid feelings are al cause that means I am wrong, and we surely can’t have that, can we? My dad lies so much about his achievements and past and now lies to his friends about what I am doing so he can look good.

And who am I to judge her for lying when, in the past, I am capable of it just as much? I see my dad I myself when I am not feeling adequate with myself and lie about certain aspects. Did I lie to her myself? Yes. I exaggerated elements of my life to seem better, so who the ###$ am I to judge? And I, too, am obviously guilty of my story with her that I exaggerate aspects that we both believe. And I, too, lie to cover up another lie.

With my mum saying I was the most special person in the world, often I go to sleep imagining myself even being met with universal claim. Or sometimes I imagine myself as a super villain. Delusions of grandeur. In more hypomanic episodes, I have such a series of ideas that I think will be amazing.

I have done extensive meditation and reading into Carl Jung’s shadow, and I have been trying desperately to truly love myself without being dependent on another and believing in my capabilities.

In my more calm moments I want nothing but her own happiness, but then I feel rage and jealousy when I imagine her being happy. She is a ___ing 17 year old and sometimes I hope she doesn’t succeed in studying or in life so she is not better than me? What the ___? But when I truly love myself, and have an accepted level of self-esteem and belief, I want nothing but the best for her.

Marijuana would heighten the paranoia, but yet provide a deeper insight into the workings of the mind. ‘Weed reveals you to yourself.’ LSD and mushrooms, while have had some minor anxieties, have for the most part been sublime and have complimented my 5 years practice with meditation.

Then I resent her for messing with what intuition is and what paranoia is. I believe that intuition is reading into another’s character, but it becomes paranoia when you have this egocentric concept that their behavior and actions are actually conscious attempts to try and hurt you. When in reality they are indicative of their own shortcomings.

It all seems so dissonant to me. On the one hand there is this wisdom inside me that can observe all of this neurosis, then there is the neurosis itself manifesting.

And what degree did I finish last year, and still have desires and hopes to succeed in? ___ing psychology. I truly do want to help people because I do believe people underneath are beautiful humans, and I just want to see the best in people. But I have to accept that I can’t help everyone, especially those that I am involved with. I have to let them go. They have to help themselves, which means letting go of my idea of them. Then I have to see if I truly love them for them, rather than the desire that the beauty underneath will shine and overcome the illnesses. This is, of course, delusional. Nobody will ever be perfect.

Right now I have to work on myself and do hope she works on herself. A part of me will always love her but I do not want to embark on a relationship that may resemble a BPD/covert NPD or healer/victim kind of thing. I don’t want to play mind games with people, but it’s so intuitive. I want to truly love myself, admit my shortcomings, try my best in this world before I die. If I find another that loves themselves, and we express that love together, then so be it.

I hate hurting people but I realise I have done so much before, even if it doesn’t fit my self image.

But I don’t want to let go of her completely. I am still clinging onto the hope that one day she will return, and maybe she won’t have these emotional outbursts. How absurd. But am I clinging on to feel that sense of love? I have said in once instance she should let go, but I have hinted that she shouldn’t. Not once do I initiate the first contact; it is always her. And I feel she uses me to feel loved and then I feel empty, but I almost feel relieved she is grieving? We have both admitted this to each other. But then in more deeper moments I hate that, and I truly want her to let go so she is able to live her life.

I have to accept everyone has a rainbow of emotions, but I don’t have to accept that it can manifest into manipulation etc. And it is not up to me to save her, and nor should I have to put up with it. But I still just want to hold her again and have everything okay. And I truly believe that it isn’t over, and she will be back at least once more.

"One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious.” - Carl Jung

[once removed]

hey carljungjr, and welcome to bpdfamily 

my reply may get a bit long, theres a lot id like to respond to, and its kind of all over the place. ill try to keep it somewhat organized.

first of all, i think you have excellent and well balanced insight. there are aspects of your story i can immediately relate to. youve obviously done some reading/learning both about BPD and yourself.

before i begin, please know that a lot of what you are experiencing, thoughts, feelings, expressions, are commonly expressed here, and im familiar with some of them myself. thats not to suggest your experience isnt unique, just that you will find a lot in common here in your process.

"I definitely concede the following: I may be reading too much into her actions and it may be indicative of anxiety, and concurrently I may be excusing things."

anxiety can certainly cause this, but anxiety is also not uncommon here, and neither is ruminating. ruminating is generally what youre doing. your psyche is attempting to process what youve been through, which isnt easily done.

you also express a pretty sober and balanced look at your own role in this relationship, and thats the key to your healing. i once read a member say "our issues plug into theirs (pwBPD)" and id agree with that. you highlight issues on her end and yours, and i suspect you can see where they fed each other. some of our issues are heightened in a BPD relationship.

as for what you highlight in green, my ex had plenty of moments of clarity, roughly as much interest in psychology as i have, and even knew about BPD and npd, which i did not at the time. i suspect if you do a search for "moment(s) of clarity", youll find an awful lot thats familiar. you may also read members report that their BPDexes are therapists, psychiatrists, and psychologists. on this board youll learn not to separate those from extreme behaviors. actions > words. "The reality is what I am seeing; a diagnosis is only secondary." 

" She would say things like “I am worried” and then when she would see my concern, she had this sense of terror that I may be distant from her and then deny saying it. “Oh, I just say silly things.”

you report multiple similar instances, like remembering the new years event a few different ways, and even her past. dissociating could explain this.

" I felt like not just her lover, but also her teacher."

this i relate to. there is an advisor here, ripped heart, who had a recent post that was one of the most insightful things ive read on this board, that detailed a level of attraction to people with problems. i dont consider myself to fall cleanly into a fixer or rescuer type. modify the label to teacher though? that was alarming for me. i fall for this all over the place.

you ask how necessary a label really is. depends on the person. labels have helped me. my ex had a diagnosed label (bipolar) and it didnt help me. learning about BPD helped me. a label like "codependent" may help others. your conclusion is correct though, and youll see it reinforced on the boards. you dont describe a healthy relationship. ultimately, thats all that matters. especially since no one who isnt a therapist or psychiatrist is qualified to diagnose, no matter how sure any of us may be.

"Were her responses on love genuine or just what I wanted to hear?"

if BPD, id say both.

":)id she lie about the sexual trauma?"

i wouldnt say "lie" either way. if BPD, its possible that her story wasnt 100% accurate, and i do mean that in the most vague of ways. with regard to my ex, the descriptions of her parents were over the top in both extremes. i met them and im confident there is truth to them, which is also vague. how much truth? no one knows.

"But then does that mean I am excusing because of the past?"

excusing? no, i dont think youve done that. overlooking is a different story.

"Is there a link between abandonment issues in parenthood and BPD?"

uh, yeah  . it essentially IS the link.

on your entire reflections of me:

again, this is the key to your healing. youre the only one you can change. i think you experienced a high amount of conflict between your parents, and i dont mean to be cold or clinical about it. your mother passing at age twelve, rage/hitting, having to tend to your mother, these are all things beyond my imagination, all traumatic experiences, and my heart goes out to you. i think connecting these dots is the right path. i think you will also find a lot in common with, id estimate, 90% of the members here, with the things you describe.

"Am I the one trying to control her by trying to fix her? Does this give me some sense of power? Some sense of importance? Does it make me the sane one? Does it avoid my own healing and allow me to focus on another?"

maybe. maybe probably. a fair amount of that is natural in this process. its overfocusing that can keep you stuck. i dont immediately see overfocus on any of those things, just the attempt to process something highly traumatic.

"Is this, plus the desire to heal, manifesting in my attraction?" probably. but you answer your own question here. "It seems that every girl I have had a crush or feelings for has had some issue that I felt I could be the savior."

youve taken an awful lot of responsibility here, and i think thats crucial. its more productive than black and white thinking. but i also think you highlight the point of that quote, about "our issues plug into theirs". youll find this site can help you a lot with these issues, and help you remain focused on healing yourself. another thing common on this board is finding a therapist. i strongly encourage you do so. its like the cast on a broken bone. sure your broken bone will heal. you want to make sure you heal right this time 

[CarlJungJr]

Ah, thank you so much for your response! I definitely know that I am not alone in the suffering. Whether she has BPD or not, I can't deny that I resonate with much of the tales told here.

Indeed. Plugged into theirs is a great way to put it. The more I read about covert NPD/BPD relationships, or rescuer/victim, I was overwhelmed with how much it resonated with me. Now coming down from the initial shock, I don't think it was intense as that, but there are certainly some similarities.

I mean, the moments of clarity seemed to often triumph over what I saw as BPD like symptoms. But that may be because most of our correspondence has been done over messaging where once can monitor and censor what they are saying and thinking as opposed to the impulsiveness in face to face relations.

I can't help feel distant to most others here, however. The fact is: I purposely and consciously seduced a 17 year old girl at the age of 22, and at the start I had no feelings invovled in my intentions. My ego loved her attraction. She was sexy as hell. I loved the idea of having sex with her. And I said to her before we had sex, as I was getting to know her more, I didn't want to ruin the friendship. I truly don't want to resort to No Contact because I do have a love for her, and I don't want to be seen as someone that abandons her. Then again, that might be my ego fearing the wrath of potentially being devalued.

But she did see in gray: she had again said that she loves me despite my anxieties and paranoia, and how she hates that I am paranoid. Again, she may be parroting things I said to her first - selfless love, the beauty in people - and this is easily doable over text, which is where most of the talks occurred. And when she left it was spoken with some rationality. But, yeah, of course there is moments of clarity for all of them.

I posted this on the psychforum and the post suggested she may be a sociopath, especially with the "good actress" thing. I think the amount of Tumblr posts about sadness and emptiness and the intensity of the contrasting emotions seem to indicate feigned emotions is not the issue; it's the intensity of them. I think what she tells me out of emotions is true - the love, her being my teacher etc. I think when she says:

"Please note that if getting over me, moving on, will make you happier, rather than me in your life, then I shall support you. And I'm saying that not out of the pressure to seem kind and selfless or because it's the "right thing to do" (___ herd morality srsly I'll do whatever the ___ I think is the right thing to do) but because I truly, truly wish you to be happy.

(I've been realising how similar parental/child relationships and romantic relationships are, and it's kinda weird. I guess everyone just wants a parent they can ___? I think that's kinda nice though and I will strive to love a partner like I would love a child. I mean, differently too... Idk U KNOW WHAT I MEAN) "

So, even though her emotional bursts will contradict these insights, I do hope that I taught her some things nonetheless. And perhaps there is degree of mimicry, but she's absorbing what I am teaching her?

The lies, and the good actress, comes from selfishness. And, since she's only 17, she may grow out of this. Or it may get worse.

She could have easily lied about 'boys falling in love with her' (unless that's a lie) or talking to other guys to get over me, but they are not me. But, then again, I have to accept if she is so attached, she may be having a secret relationship - much like our own - with another guy, just as she told other guys without my involvement.

But do you know what? if I keep ruminating about this, and analysing it, I will go insane. The truth is the following: that I will never know the truth, and I don't think she does either.

I do love her unconditionally and we were not in a serious relationship known to everyone else like the rest of us, and I can't hate her. If it's BPD, then it's an illness, and I do hope she seeks the necessary resources to combat it.

" She would say things like “I am worried” and then when she would see my concern, she had this sense of terror that I may be distant from her and then deny saying it. “Oh, I just say silly things.”

you report multiple similar instances, like remembering the new years event a few different ways, and even her past. dissociating could explain this.

Could you elaborate on the dissociation? She even explained the symptoms itself with the apparent sexual trauma.

this i relate to. there is an advisor here, ripped heart, who had a recent post that was one of the most insightful things ive read on this board, that detailed a level of attraction to people with problems. i dont consider myself to fall cleanly into a fixer or rescuer type. modify the label to teacher though? that was alarming for me. i fall for this all over the place.

Thanks, I'll check it out!

"Were her responses on love genuine or just what I wanted to hear?"

if BPD, id say both.

That's a good point. I guess I am guilty as her in seeing it as either black or white, 0's and 1's. Of course they would be entwined.

excusing? no, i dont think youve done that. overlooking is a different story.

I am trying my best not to overlook it, but I can't escape the fact that I perpetuated all of this. I was the one seducing and charming her, and she loved the fact that she could act innocent.

Your reply and just writing this out has helped tremendously. I always start to get depressed in the winter months. I have been my own therapist for many years, and while I am proud of my triumphs, I think seeing a psychologist will be good.

Meditation has been pertinent in my sanity.

Thank you for your words. I have to admit my own darkness before I can help others.

[CarlJungJr]

Edited version as this forum doesn't let you edit after awhile. Sorry!

Ah, thank you so much for your response! I definitely know that I am not alone in the suffering. Whether she has BPD or not, I can't deny that I resonate with much of the tales told here.

Indeed. Plugged into theirs is a great way to put it. The more I read about covert NPD/BPD relationships, or rescuer/victim, I was overwhelmed with how much it resonated with me. Now coming down from the initial shock, I don't think it was intense as that, but there are certainly some similarities.

I mean, the moments of clarity seemed to often triumph over what I saw as BPD like symptoms. But that may be because most of our correspondence has been done over messaging where once can monitor and censor what they are saying and thinking as opposed to the impulsiveness in face to face relations.

I can't help feel distant to most others here, however. The fact is: I purposely and consciously seduced a 17 year old girl at the age of 22, and at the start I had no feelings invovled in my intentions. My ego loved her attraction. She was sexy as hell. I loved the idea of having sex with her. And I said to her before we had sex, as I was getting to know her more, I didn't want to ruin the friendship. I truly don't want to resort to No Contact because I do have a love for her, and I don't want to be seen as someone that abandons her. Then again, that might be my ego fearing the wrath of potentially being devalued.

But she did see in gray: she had again said that she loves me despite my anxieties and paranoia, and how she hates that I am paranoid. Again, she may be parroting things I said to her first - selfless love, the beauty in people - and this is easily doable over text, which is where most of the talks occurred. And when she left it was spoken with some rationality. But, yeah, of course there is moments of clarity for all of them.

I posted this on the psychforum and the post suggested she may be a sociopath, especially with the "good actress" thing. I think the amount of Tumblr posts about sadness and emptiness and the intensity of the contrasting emotions seem to indicate feigned emotions is not the issue; it's the intensity of them. I don't think a sociopath's favourite poem would be 'The Love Song' by Alfred Prufrock. I think what she tells me out of emotions is true - the love, her being my teacher etc. I think when she says:

"Please note that if getting over me, moving on, will make you happier, rather than me in your life, then I shall support you. And I'm saying that not out of the pressure to seem kind and selfless or because it's the "right thing to do" (___ herd morality srsly I'll do whatever the ___ I think is the right thing to do) but because I truly, truly wish you to be happy.

(I've been realising how similar parental/child relationships and romantic relationships are, and it's kinda weird. I guess everyone just wants a parent they can ___? I think that's kinda nice though and I will strive to love a partner like I would love a child. I mean, differently too... Idk U KNOW WHAT I MEAN) "

So, even though her emotional bursts will contradict these insights, I do hope that I taught her some things nonetheless. And perhaps there is degree of mimicry, but she's absorbing what I am teaching her? I don't think she is thinking to herself, no matter how paranoid I sometimes get, that "if I say <x> to him, it will make him feel <y>:"

I got this message from her just last week:

"I am still in awe how he actual hell you fell in love with me. I read your tumblr posts over and over and am in complete wonder at how beautiful your mind is. I just want to know every little thing about you.  You're my favourite person. You're my favourite existence. You are forever radiant to me.  You're honestly my lover, role model, admiration, and ultimate idol of respect all in one.  You're  the most wonderful, interesting, beautiful soul I've ever had the privilege of knowing. "

The lies, and the good actress, comes from selfishness. And, since she's only 17, she may grow out of this. Or it may get worse. It was interesting when she said the good actress is as basis of "feeling what others feel", though I wonder if she got that from our discussions of empathy.

I saw this on her Tumblr from when she was 15 which is interesting about the identity thing (but what 15 year old doesn't know their own identity): "It’s endlessly fascinating how much we yearn to be something, as if ourselves is never enough.

Always changing. Why can't I be content."

She could have easily lied about 'boys falling in love with her' (unless that's a lie) or talking to other guys to get over me, but they are not me. I am greatful she took responsibility for this because I wouldn't have known otherwise. But, then again, I have to accept if she is so attached, she may be having a secret relationship - much like our own - with another guy, just as she told other guys without my involvement.

But do you know what? if I keep ruminating about this, and analysing it, I will go insane. The truth is the following: that I will never know the truth, and I don't think she does either.

Obsessing over answers is not the answer; letting go is the answer. Focusing on myself is the answer. I will never, truly 100% know anyone's mind anyway.

I do love her unconditionally and we were not in a serious relationship known to everyone else like the rest of us, and I can't hate her. If it's BPD, then it's an illness, and I do hope she seeks the necessary resources to combat it.

" She would say things like “I am worried” and then when she would see my concern, she had this sense of terror that I may be distant from her and then deny saying it. “Oh, I just say silly things.”

you report multiple similar instances, like remembering the new years event a few different ways, and even her past. dissociating could explain this.

Could you elaborate on the dissociation? She even explained the symptoms itself with the apparent sexual trauma.

this i relate to. there is an advisor here, ripped heart, who had a recent post that was one of the most insightful things ive read on this board, that detailed a level of attraction to people with problems. i dont consider myself to fall cleanly into a fixer or rescuer type. modify the label to teacher though? that was alarming for me. i fall for this all over the place.

f

Thanks, I'll check it out!

"Were her responses on love genuine or just what I wanted to hear?"

if BPD, id say both.

That's a good point. I guess I am guilty as her in seeing it as either black or white, 0's and 1's. Of course they would be entwined.

excusing? no, i dont think youve done that. overlooking is a different story.

I am trying my best not to overlook it, but I can't escape the fact that I perpetuated all of this. I was the one seducing and charming her, and she loved the fact that she could act innocent.

Your reply and just writing this out has helped tremendously. I always start to get depressed in the winter months. I have been my own therapist for many years, and while I am proud of my triumphs, I think seeing a psychologist will be good.

Meditation has been pertinent in my sanity.

Thank you for your words. I have to admit my own darkness before I can help others.

I told her about my own battles with mental illness and issues not to justify her own, but the fact I am working on them. And it's never okay to treat people badly. I guess I learned my lesson?

But I truly think much of my wisdom towards her should be applied to myself.

I just find it bizarre when she messages me with words saying how much she misses me I feel such gratification and relief. But when it gets too intense and wanting to see me, I want her to back away and feel sucked in again. And when she does back away, I want her to message me the love words again. When she wanted to see me, I wanted nothing less. It petrified me. And now she accepts that this is the case, I want to message her and say, "hey, come to my house next weekend and let's pretend everything is okay again. Let's fall back into the dream." But this discounts the anxieties, the issues and the ensuing sadness once she goes again.

Finally: there's a part of me that fills if I truly tried hard enough I could deactivate/suppress the feelings of love I have for. Both the concept of unconditional love (i.e. let her go for her own happiness) and my dependent love (i.e. I need her to fill my void) and resort to the idea of playing her mind games that may or may not be there. If not mind games, then responding to her emotions critically. This disgusts me. But it's there. And it seems like the safe option by putting up such a front, and makes me want to play the mind games just as much and beat her at them if she starts being emotional. This comes from looking her as a villain.

But I know that's me. I know she is beautiful, and there IS potential, but I have to let go. And that kind of mentality will not help letting go.

I think we ended this on the best way possible.

[PartStockMoxxie]

wow... .this is so scary to read... .I mean i just stumbled across this and this was the first one i clicked on and in reading this I see my almost exact situation... .like the ages and everything. I am that 17 your old girl, and it kills me knowing that my boyfriend is possibly feeling like this... .

[CarlJungJr]

What is your story?

[once removed]

dont beat yourself up over her age. you indicate the age difference was legal. do you think things would have played out differently if she were 18 and you 22?

"I truly don't want to resort to No Contact because I do have a love for her, and I don't want to be seen as someone that abandons her."

contact or no contact, you may have zero power over being seen as someone who abandons her.

"And, since she's only 17, she may grow out of this. Or it may get worse."

if indeed BPD, i dont think she will "grow out of this". but at 17, i think youre prudent not to insist on diagnosis. i have read only a little on diagnosed borderlines under the age of 17. theres a case study somewhere on this board that is a fascinating read. its my understanding, heck, its my experience, that most issues, personality disorders, etc, largely "surface" sometime between 18 and 21. that of course, would not necessarily mean BPD magically grows out of thin air when a given person turns 18. essentially im agreeing with you, theres not much way to know for sure.

"But do you know what? if I keep ruminating about this, and analysing it, I will go insane."

yes, too much rumination is a bad thing, but go easy on yourself; its simply a reaction to trauma. i spent months building a ridiculous internal timeline of anything and everything in my three year relationship. at the time, i could go for several hours, and it usually helped to write it down. it was obsessive, but i dont think it hurt me, certainly not in the long run, to "add up" things and, more accurately, process my trauma. a member once compared it to watching a movie like the sixth sense. maybe you had some knowledge about the movie, but it hardly prepared you for the ending. at the end, youre like      . in your head you immediately start replaying, trying to figure out what you might have missed. so you rewatch the movie. maybe you rewatch it several times. rumination has its uses, until it starts to keep us stuck. at some point you can take measures to limit the ruminations.

"Could you elaborate on the dissociation? She even explained the symptoms itself with the apparent sexual trauma."

actually im not very good at explaining it, and my experience with it is limited. www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_%28psychology%29

the helpful parts are the intro and the spot about childhood abuse and trauma. i should correct something i said about how if she has BPD she might not remember with 100% accuracy. that is, obviously, the case for everyone, memory has its faults. but this is especially common where its related to childhood abuse and trauma. for example, plenty of rape victims may not even remember that they were raped until much later in their lives. but i also know that i dont completely trust my exes accounts of her childhood or her parents.

"I have been my own therapist for many years, and while I am proud of my triumphs, I think seeing a psychologist will be good."       theres no substitute for a qualified person and neutral person.

"Meditation has been pertinent in my sanity."       anything that keeps the focus on you, and is productive, is going to help in your healing.

"I just find it bizarre when she messages me with words saying how much she misses me I feel such gratification and relief. But when it gets too intense and wanting to see me, I want her to back away and feel sucked in again. And when she does back away, I want her to message me the love words again"   this is a tango, and its good that you see your role in it 

hope this helps.

[CarlJungJr]

Thank you for your words. That movie analogy is great. What do you mean about tango? Is this a BPD term?

I feel a lot more clear headed today. I am not going to succumb to ironically devaluing her as someone with malicious and anti-social intentions. I understand a lot of people who are healing and going through grief are riding through the waves, and to see them as consciously evil helps go through the process, but I understand that BPD is an illness. But each to their own? If not BPD, I understand she is unconscious to the intensity of her emotions and gets swept up in them. It's very difficult to truly understand her when I am so attached. Oh, love, how you are blind.

I think that since I am aware of my own 'darkness', but know I am not a bad person, then it would be hypocritical and simplistic to dub her as a bad person.

Also, I feel I may potentially have BPD myself. Or I might be reading too much into things, haha. But I idealise, I split, I project, I had all the ___ed up child history, I fear abandonment, and I am a very good manipulator and liar. :/

I think it's also worth being mindful that BPD is not a reality, even if she were diagnosed with it. It is an arbitrary diagnosis that observes a syndrome (a group of symptoms) that is not 100% replicable from one person to the next. One individual may be diagnosed with BPD and have the symptoms 1-5, while another may have 5-9. Then another individual may have 6-9 and not be technically classified as such because they failed to meet the number of required symptoms. In the end of the day, they are a good tool for consistency and pigeon holing, but they are certainly not reality.

I just have to admit that when it comes to the truth of everything: it's not as innocent as I hope, but it's not as horrible as some of my worst paranoias have conjured up.

[once removed]

glad to hear youre more clear headed today  

"What do you mean about tango? Is this a BPD term?"

no, i mean like the old adage, "it takes two to tango." she does this, you do that. you do that, she does this. "nons" can push pull too   .

"I think that since I am aware of my own 'darkness', but know I am not a bad person, then it would be hypocritical and simplistic to dub her as a bad person."

i dont think it would be hypocritical, but i agree itd be simplistic. everyone has darkness, it doesnt mean no one can be victimized or abused or that there arent bad people. but in this case, we chose the relationship and remained in it, so it would not be true to ourselves and how we felt and behaved, if we painted them black so to speak, nor would that attitude be conducive to healing. ive read a lot of debate on this board about how conscious and/or planned some of the behavior we experience is. the general, medical consensus, is that it is not; that the level of self awareness and foresight it takes to plan malicious acts is, at the very least, not fully realized in a person with BPD. i agree with that consensus. but i also think it would be denying humanity to be black and white about it and say "NO PERSON WITH BPD IS CAPABLE OF EVER CONSCIOUSLY PLANNING MALICIOUS BEHAVIOR."

"Also, I feel I may potentially have BPD myself. Or I might be reading too much into things,"

theres nothing you list, or that is on the diagnostic criteria that cannot apply, or doesnt apply, at any given time, to "nons".

"I think it's also worth being mindful that BPD is not a reality, even if she were diagnosed with it."

i know what you mean, but i think that too, is being simplistic. BPD is a very sad reality with entire support groups, networks, whole lines of therapy and psychiatry devoted to it. books, websites, support groups, networks, communication strategies, coping mechanisms, therapy, etc, for loved ones of BPD. its a highly complex disorder that effects both the person with BPD and their loved ones, and the daily life of a person with BPD. many who come here cant begin to fathom either what theyve been through, or the reality of BPD, and undergo an entire process of accepting the disorder. its as much a reality to the "non" as it is to the "borderline".

the good news is you found this support group, and there is a virtually endless supply of tools that will help a person detach, turn the focus to themselves, and begin to do the hard work on our own issues.

[CarlJungJr]

Really interesting to read all of this. We got back together in May 2015 and she cheated on me, while living together and compulsively lied, in March 2017. I can elaborate later on if need be. Very overwhelming to read such ruminations when the March 2017 incident was exponentially more painful, and yet i wasn't completely surprised.

[once removed]

hi CarlJungJr,

i welcome you back, although im sorry for the circumstances that led you back. that sounds pretty devastating. we are here to support you if you want to share.

[CarlJungJr]

Thanks! And it's great to see you. I remember you, haha. I'm still going through a lot of pain. She's with the new guy and I keep swinging between relief I am no longer with her and longing for her. I'll explain more in the next couple of days if you'd like. But, yes, it was like dating someone with a split personality. I cannot begin to fathom how somebody could concurrently love and hate me at the same time.

[once removed]

She's with the new guy and I keep swinging between relief I am no longer with her and longing for her.

i recall feeling similar conflicted feelings, it certainly is painful, and surreal. it does get better. you may want to refamiliarize yourself with our article on surviving these breakups. https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/10_beliefs.pdf

in the meantime, what are you doing to take care of yourself? do you have a support system in your life?

[CarlJungJr]

i recall feeling similar conflicted feelings, it certainly is painful, and surreal. it does get better. you may want to refamiliarize yourself with our article on surviving these breakups. https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/10_beliefs.pdf

in the meantime, what are you doing to take care of yourself? do you have a support system in your life?

Thank you. I have been staying with my cousin before I head off to India for a month. I've been meditating pretty regularly, but my hobbies of piano and exercise have suffered since the break up.

[CarlJungJr]

I'm going to post here since my ex uBPD knows my reddit account and knows about /r/BPDLovedOnes, so even a new account won't suffice. I should be more active on these forums regardless since you guys seem like a wonderful community.

So, long story short, as mentioned before, my ex uBPD cheated on me for two and a half weeks. During that time I was highly suspicious, and she gaslighted and devalued me, calling me ___. After I snooped her phone and found out, she talked absolute filth about me, and she has since been with the guy she cheated on me with. What makes this more bizarre is that she idealised his bad qualities, such as being a liar and an alcoholic, and being "messed up in the best possible way". With the exception of the third night after I found out, where she would profess she loved me and ruined her life, she hasn't apologised and our correspondence has an attitude of entitlement - probably as a means to deflect her inner shame.

While still living together, we would communicate about housing matters. I saw her three times solo: the first time she came in the house when I was home, whereby I ignored her; the second she came and got some stuff and I told her not to have him over to help (she likely did); and the third she got the rest of her stuff, and I had to almost force the key off her, as she didn't want to let go of them as it would symbolise letting go of the house.

Since moving out (I have moved out too for a new change), I've not replied to her except to do with the bond. She's tried to message me about a range of topics (see images), and I have chosen not to respond (more about this later).

What I find bizarre is she is remaining in the same neighbourhood with him (he moved here). If I had cheated, I would want to get well away from the memories? Or is this her desperately clinging on and not letting go of me and our life together? But why would she not want to let go of me if I am painted black?

Being in the same neighbourhood, and where I still work, I have bumped into them three times. My heart sunk the first time as I walked past them in the supermarket. I gave her a glare and she appeared absolutely frightened. I so wanted to punch him. He didn't give me any eye contact. The second time was arriving at the train station; they were on the platform and she hid behind him when she saw I was on the train getting off. I shared glares with him and it was as if he thought I was the bad guy.

The third time was yesterday, and I saw them walking across the road during my lunch break while I was inside eating sushi. Unlike last time, I felt more fight than flight, and watched the nuances to their body language, and she just doesn't seem happy. No hand holding. She was holding the shopping bag. It just seemed distant.

But maybe I am just hoping she isn't as a defense mechanism, so as to sustain the idea that I was the best partner and not feel inadequate?

But I have been stalking her social media. Since I found out about her cheating, her poetry on Tumblr has been themed about her volatile moods and how she might just have to live with it. She's written about her desire to be the best person she can be, using photos I took when we were together. More recently, as of 5 days ago, her reddit account for the first time admits she has BPD (she denied it whenever I brought it up) and her eating disorder is the best way to mitigate the BPD symptoms. She talks about how manipulative she was during our time together, and how she keeps wanting to talk with her ex (me) about all of this as "he'd get it".

I posted on BPDLovedOnes later that night, talking about how free I am and getting better, and she broke 18 days of not contacting me a mere 40 minutes after my reddit comment, saying a message should be appreciated. So, maybe she did see me from afar? Or maybe she stalks my reddit more frequently and was angered by my freedom?

I know I should let go of trying to understand her, but if I am painted black, why does she want me to message her? Has she not let go and grieved? Is this some narcissistic supply that the new guy can't give her? Is this guy not fulfilling her emotionally? And why does she act so entitled? So as to not admit her faults (even though she did in reddit, probably hoping I'd see it?) Does she deep down want me back? Or is this all some cry for help?

Part of me wants to message her saying, "If a part of you still cares for me, and I know deep down you are ashamed of what you have been doing, then please don't message me", but I suspect not replying to her makes her lose power and shed rather have a relationship fuelled by anger then nothing at all.

Insights would be well appreciated.

Here are some messages:

imgur.com/a/2Lt3r

[once removed]

it sounds as though you are both struggling with unresolved feelings from the breakup. thats natural, and im sure it doesnt help being in close proximity to each other.

Part of me wants to message her saying, "If a part of you still cares for me, and I know deep down you are ashamed of what you have been doing, then please don't message me", but I suspect not replying to her makes her lose power and shed rather have a relationship fuelled by anger then nothing at all.

try to look at this in terms of what you want, and what is best for you in terms of detaching. a lot of us get tripped up in what is going on in our exes heads. theres a great deal we can learn about how the relationship broke down, and how people with BPD cope with relationships, certainly, but i know that a lot of what pained me for so long was trying to place myself in her shoes. both parties tend to experience things differently, for lack of a better word.

her messages are pesky, and its insensitive of her to ask for favors, i agree. people with BPD have an immense fear of rejection, and it sounds like she would like a connection on some level, and it may be that shes a bit tone deaf on the excuses for reaching out. it doesnt sound to me like shes angry at you or has painted you black. it sounds like she wants you to undo her feelings of rejection.

do you want a connection on any level?

[CarlJungJr]

A part of me does want to help her, but that's not healthy. I want her to be genuinely sorry and seek help. I want her to know my pain and truly understand what she did in terms of me. I don't want a connection on any level if she wants to act like nothing is wrong  (in our direct communucation, anyway), but throughout the break up I only showed anger rather than my heartache, so maybe she needs to know? But surely deep down she would know?

[once removed]

I want her to know my pain and truly understand what she did in terms of me.

would you say that you are also struggling with the lingering wounds of rejection?

cheating is excruciating to go through. people that are cheated on can go on to internalize feelings of low self worth as a result.

Abandonment Cycle The Five Stages

If your relationship partner left you or if you left because you felt you had no choice, you will likely pass through an abandonment cycle.

Shattering - Your relationship is breaking apart. Your hopes and dreams are Shattered. You are devastated, bewildered. You succumb to despair and panic. You feel hopeless and have Suicidal feelings. You feel Symbiotically attached to your lost love, mortally wounded, as if you’ll die without them. You are in Severe pain, Shock, Sorrow. You’ve been Severed from your primary attachment. You’re cut off from your emotional life-line.

Withdrawl – painful Withdrawal from your lost love. The more time goes on, the more all of the needs your partner was meeting begin to impinge into your every Waking moment. You are in Writhing pain from being torn apart. You yearn, ache, and Wait for them to return. Love-withdrawal is just like Heroin Withdrawal – - each involves the body’s opiate system and the same physical symptoms of intense craving. During Withdrawal, you are feeling the Wrenching pain of love-loss and separation – - the Wasting, Weight loss, Wakefulness, Wishful thinking, and Waiting for them to return. You crave a love-fix to put you out of the WITHDRAWAL symptoms.

Internalizing – you Internalize the rejection and cause Injury to your self esteem. This is the most critical stage of the cycle when your wound becomes susceptible to Infection and can create permanent scarring. You are Isolated, riddled with Insecurity, self- Indictment and self-doubt. You are preoccupied with ‘If only regrets’ – - If only you had been more attentive, more sensitive, less demanding, etc. You beat yourself up with regrets over the relationship and Idealize your abandoner at the expense of your own self Image.

Anger – the turning point in the grief process when you begin to fight back. You attempt to Reverse the Rejection by Refusing to accept all of the blame for the failed relationship, and feel surges of Rage against your abandoner. You Rail against the pain and isolation you’ve been in. Agitated depression and spurts of anger displaced on your friends and family are common during this turbulent time, as are Revenge and Retaliation fantasies toward your abandoner.

Lifting – your anger helped to externalize your pain. Gradually, as your energy spurts outward, it Lifts you back into Life. You begin to Let go. Life distracts you and gradually Lifts you out the grief cycle. You feel the emergence of strength, wiser for the painful Lessons you’ve Learned. And if you’re engaged in the process of recovery, you get ready to Love again.

i would suggest that her ability to acknowledge and validate your pain is limited. likewise, it doesnt sound like you have any interest in helping soothe her (nor do i blame you).

so what i see is an impasse. you both want acknowledgment that the other party is unwilling or unable to give. she will likely continue to reach out in the manner that she has, and that will further invalidate your pain.

you have options, in terms of releasing with grace. what do you want to do?

[CarlJungJr]

would you say that you are also struggling with the lingering wounds of rejection?

Thank you so much for engaging me on all of this, even two years after the initial topic!

Of course I am. Though there was an element of relief, especially from her emotional outbreaks (storms I'd call them), It was absolutely devastating to confirm my suspicions.

cheating is excruciating to go through. people that are cheated on can go on to internalize feelings of low self worth as a result.

I think I internalized it more so a couple of months ago. I have certainly been able to reflect on the relationship and see where I made mistakes (I took her granted with her cooking and my paranoia from the incidents of early 2015 would creep up), and how my own caretaker issues manifested (replaying scripts from my childhood), but I know in my heart that there was nothing I could have done to stop this and I did not deserve it.

i would suggest that her ability to acknowledge and validate your pain is limited. likewise, it doesnt sound like you have any interest in helping soothe her (nor do i blame you).

What angers me most is she would know I am in pain, so why doesn't she? Her cries for help keep mentioning dissociation and her manipulative self was not her, so I can only infer that truly acknowledging my pain would he too much for her inner shame to handle. And since she is suffering so much, It is difficult to acknowledge the pain of others.

The most saddening part on my behalf is there is a part of me that wants to help her, and I take glee in the fact that her current guy doesn't fulfil these emotional needs. He is a liar, an alcoholic, and talks of himself.

so what i see is an impasse. you both want acknowledgment that the other party is unwilling or unable to give. she will likely continue to reach out in the manner that she has, and that will further invalidate your pain.

you have options, in terms of releasing with grace. what do you want to do?

She is still young, and highly self-aware. And I know deep down when there were good days, the love she had for me was more grounded and mature. She was genuine and even maternal, loving to say how being in a relationship is just being each other's parent. You could see it in her eyes the change.

Will she ever apologise? Surely she isn't happy with him if she is already talking about him in reddit and red flags. A part of me does want her to truly acknowledge my pain - but unless she is getting proper help, I guess shed only do that if she was truly wanting to recycle me. At this stage she appears to want a connection based on her own issues without acknowledging my betrayal, and I can't do that, so NC seems best and working on self-love.

[once removed]

I did not deserve it.

thats important. no one deserves it, its a poor coping mechanism.

What angers me most is she would know I am in pain, so why doesn't she?

i think you partially answer your question, but remember what i mentioned about shared perspectives. part of your anger may stem from this (understandable) expectation. accepting she is who she is, and that that includes the sort of limitations you describe, can help free of you of that expectation, and of the pain.

2) Belief that your BPD partner feels the same way that you feel

If you believe that your BPD partner was experiencing the relationship in the same way that you were or that they are feeling the same way you do right now, don’t count on it. This will only serve to confuse you and make it harder to understand what is really happening. When any relationship breaks down, it’s often because the partners are on a different “page” – but much more so when your partner suffers with borderline personality disorder traits. Unknown to you, there were likely significant periods of shame, fear, disappointment, resentment, and anger rising from below the surface during the entire relationship. What you have seen lately is not new - rather it’s a culmination of feelings that have been brewing in the relationship

The most saddening part on my behalf is there is a part of me that wants to help her, and I take glee in the fact that her current guy doesn't fulfil these emotional needs. He is a liar, an alcoholic, and talks of himself.

it might be a good time to avoid the cyber peeking. its natural to feel this way, but a recovery built on the success or failure of an ex has a shaky foundation, and has a tendency to feed itself.

Will she ever apologise?

she hasnt yet. the question is if you intend to wait for one, and if so, how long.

NC seems best and working on self-love.

fair enough. right now though, she is reaching out, and she may continue to do so, and thats affecting you. hard question: do you want it to stop?

[CarlJungJr]

thats important. no one deserves it, its a poor coping mechanism.

Cheating is a poor coping mechanism on her behalf?

i think you partially answer your question, but remember what i mentioned about shared perspectives. part of your anger may stem from this (understandable) expectation. accepting she is who she is, and that that includes the sort of limitations you describe, can help free of you of that expectation, and of the pain.

That's true. So, in a way, I correlate her genuinely offering forgiveness as her accepting recovery. She knows something is off. But it could equally be a recycle.

Just like I need to realise that the cheating wasn't my fault, her not apologising and invalidating my pain is not reasons based on me either; It's her.

And I guess her being angry at me not replying is a lot of projection and abandonment fears, especially if this current guy can't be there for her emotionally in a way I was. Sorry if I am repeating myself, haha.

When she minimises the situation to avoid the shame, me not replying may trigger what she has done is wrong, so she gets angry that I am not seeing the situation in the same maladaptive coping mechanisms as her. She even admitted recently on social media, "when I am at my most manipulative, what I do makes sense in my mind."

2) Belief that your BPD partner feels the same way that you feel

If you believe that your BPD partner was experiencing the relationship in the same way that you were or that they are feeling the same way you do right now, don’t count on it. This will only serve to confuse you and make it harder to understand what is really happening. When any relationship breaks down, it’s often because the partners are on a different “page” – but much more so when your partner suffers with borderline personality disorder traits. Unknown to you, there were likely significant periods of shame, fear, disappointment, resentment, and anger rising from below the surface during the entire relationship. What you have seen lately is not new - rather it’s a culmination of feelings that have been brewing in the relationship

I knew she wasn't happy the last few months, and her rages/storms became more frequent. When tired, soon after moving in, she'd complain about being trapped or think me not being as good as cook as her would make me incompetent in all areas. But this splitting was temporary and after a goods nights sleep she would say she is silly and those emotions are no longer true. I'd see that as the real her and those other emotions as the false her. The truth is, since emotions fuel reality, both were true for them in the moments they occurred. And those negative emotions would likely accumulate every successive time they would arise in consciousness.

it might be a good time to avoid the cyber peeking. its natural to feel this way, but a recovery built on the success or failure of an ex has a shaky foundation, and has a tendency to feed itself.

But it's so hard, haha! I am going to India in less than two weeks, including a 10 day silent retreat. That will surely help.

And I think I can accept her with future partners reaching recovery and not failing. I want the current guy to fail though.

she hasnt yet. the question is if you intend to wait for one, and if so, how long.

I don't know. I think India will help me answer that. I know deep down I have to let go of that wait, but I can't yet. I haven't let her know my pain besides anger, which isn't the best way to communicate it. But if I were to message her my pain, hoping it will trigger an apology, it will largely be contingent on the emotion of hers at the time. She may very well scoff it off, and my pain will further be invalidated.

fair enough. right now though, she is reaching out, and she may continue to do so, and thats affecting you. hard question: do you want it to stop?

A part of me likes that she is reaching out. It initially makes me feel empowered that she still is seeking a connection regardless of her new guy, or that she feels me better suited for her emotional needs. I know that's not love, and probably my caretaker role, but it helps. But after awhile, even though I can intellectualise it's her and not me, her approach does invalidate my pain and makes me feel worse.

Once in India, she won't be able to contact me at all (unless she messages my reddit). India will help.

[once removed]

Cheating is a poor coping mechanism on her behalf?

yes.

Just like I need to realise that the cheating wasn't my fault, her not apologising and invalidating my pain is not reasons based on me either; It's her.

you may find it very freeing when you reach acceptance of this. people have limitations. i have a friend who used to be the worst possible person for a shoulder to cry on. id get angry and feel invalidated every time, until i accepted that was his limitation, but he had other qualities that made him a good friend.

she would say she is silly and those emotions are no longer true. I'd see that as the real her and those other emotions as the false her. The truth is, since emotions fuel reality, both were true for them in the moments they occurred. And those negative emotions would likely accumulate every successive time they would arise in consciousness.

its helpful that you see this. my ex said similar things (about her outbursts no longer being true) and i learned to ignore/minimize any time she had one. BPD is a disorder of emotional regulation.

I don't know. I think India will help me answer that. I know deep down I have to let go of that wait, but I can't yet. I haven't let her know my pain besides anger, which isn't the best way to communicate it. But if I were to message her my pain, hoping it will trigger an apology, it will largely be contingent on the emotion of hers at the time. She may very well scoff it off, and my pain will further be invalidated.

you might also try, when youre ready, working toward forgiveness, not contingent on an apology. its often hardest to forgive someone who offers no apology. the result, ive found, is a deep feeling of inner peace.

A part of me likes that she is reaching out. It initially makes me feel empowered that she still is seeking a connection regardless of her new guy, or that she feels me better suited for her emotional needs. I know that's not love, and probably my caretaker role, but it helps.

believe it or not, the more youre involved, the more stability you are offering in terms of her coping mechanisms, if that makes sense.

India will help.

ill bet it will, it sounds very exciting. do keep us posted.

[CarlJungJr]

I have been NC since May, but today I caved and stalked her social media on friend's account. She's now in Japan with the guy she cheated on me with. I knew she was going to Japan with him in late July, but it still hurts to see them together. Her eyes looked tired and her skin worse - and based on her posts in the BPD subreddit, she is not in a good place.

He goes to Japan every year and is largely defined by Japanese culture (and alcohol) - so I guess this is the pinnacle of adapting to him and living his life.

I mean, I am currently backpacking alone in India and it's been a crazy ride, but I currently feel a great sadness. We were originally going to head to Japan together, and for 2.5 years we never ended up going overseas. They are overseas after only 4 months, so I feel like I've missed out (even though logically I know I dodged a bullet).

And I can't help feel at preesent that Japan will somehow be a better experience then India. And I know comparison is the thief of joy.

Just venting. :/

[earlyL]

but it helps. But after awhile, even though I can intellectualise it's her and not me, her approach does invalidate my pain and makes me feel worse.

Once in India, she won't be able to contact me at all (unless she messages my reddit). India will help.

I can relate to this cycle of wanting to have contact with my ex (who also cheated and is with replacement) but then in the end it makes me feel worse, it is a never ending cycle right now as I step away from the business we created together. I have come away to the states for a trip away, I do think being in another country helps hugely in moving on from these feelings.

I also have done the same as you and not shown my anger or feelings in any correspondence (we have only had email over the last four months). I know that if I did reach out and she responded negatively and couldn't give me the acknowledgment of the pain I so desperately want then it will cause me so much more turmoil and I can't risk that right now.

Have you read about wise mind - this has helped me greatly with these feelings of conflict myself, and something I can use in my day to day life as well as through this process.

I also wanted to add on a really personal note, that I have been incredibly lucky to live and work in both India and Japan. Japan is an incredible country but a lot of it is about being functional, always appearing in control, it is a fascinating culture but India - is real, it is the most beautiful, complex and human place I have ever been. Your experience will last a lifetime, theirs is only for the moment.