response to broken boundary

[six]

I stated a boundary last summer to my BPDs26 that I would not tolerate swearing in our house.  He has been very explosive lately and a few weeks ago, he came home, was in the house for 5 minutes and called me and his sister each a swear word.  then he left the house.

my therapist believes that I should tell him he is no longer welcome in the house bec he broke the boundary of no swearing and to speak to me and my daughter that way is abusive.  she says that until he is willing to own the behavior and stop doing it, he should not be in the house, and me and my other kids should not be around him even outside of the house.  she says I am sending a message to my other kids and to BPDS that abuse is tolerated, and when someone breaks the boundary that I have set, they are still welcomed into the house and treated exactly the same way.  she also makes the point that he does not swear at his GF or at work, so he is able to control this behavior if he chooses to.

if I tell him that he is not welcome in the house, I will probably have to involve the police bec he will not accept that from me.  we have "discussed" this in the past and he has refused to accept that I set policy in our house  (part of his whole abandonment issue, I think) (I have never called the authorities, and of course do not want to involve them if it is not necessary).  .  in the past, if I say something like that he refuses to continue the conversation and walks away.

thoughts?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[crumblingdad]

Sounds like a tough decision on your part.  How did you explain the boundary to him when you set it and did you explain what the consequences would be if he violated them?

[jellibeans]

six

I understand what your therapist is saying but it seems that your son already has a lot of hurt when it comes from not being able to live with you etc... . your recent fight where it looked like you were taking side with your daughter... . I kind of think this is only going to drive a wedge deeper between you.

Can you think of another way to defuse? Can you simply state that you will not hold conversations with him if he is going to swear? What is stopping you from leaving the room? ending the conversation?

I know you have to set boundaries but this one seems like it is only going to further anger him and I do think there is a way for you to respond with out rejecting him and banning him from your home... . that seems harsh.

[lever.]

Does your therapist have a good understanding of BPD?

While it is important to have boundaries I think if you attempt to enforce this boundary in this particular way your relationship n=with your son is likely to break down and difficult behaviour is likely to be triggered.

In the scheme of things whilst swearing is disrespectful it is not dangerous.

I think the suggestion of just saying that you are not going to discuss anything while he is swearing at you would be better. Also try to depersonalise it as in I am not happy with anyone swearing at me.

Unless the siblings are very young try to avoid discussing his behaviour towards them and let them handle it themselves.

My relationship with my DD and her children has currently broken down over her perception that I favour her sibling.

[RunningWithScissors]

Six - your query is exactly the kind I have in dealing with my uBPDss18.  I too am never sure what the 'right thing' to do is but my inclination is to maintain the boundary I've set.  Please take my ramblings with a large grain of salt as I am by no means an expert. 

The issue always seems to be finding a balance between two opposing viewpoints:

- Is this the hill to die on?  Implying that maintaining peace is more important than maintaining the boundary.

- This is the proverbial 'line in the sand' that cannot be crossed.  At the risk of being rigid or inflexible, does one have the right to establish and enforce house rules?

Again, my bias is towards the latter.  Although there may be pushback and resistance to my boundaries, I find it's better to be consistent.  I've learned that boundaries are not about controlling the other person, but about supporting yourself.  So, you're not telling your son that he can never swear, just that he can't do it in your house. To me, that seems reasonable.  I do find it interesting that your son chose to leave the house after he swore which suggests that he understands your boundary but needed to express himself in the manner he chose.  He himself reinforced the boundary by leaving after the 'unacceptable behavior'.  This might be a sign of progress!

You have my best wishes and support!

[Kate4queen]

The way I look at it is this.

If I'm afraid of my own child-whatever their age then that's not okay for me, my DH or my other children.

And I was terrified of upsetting my son, terrified of his rage or that he would hurt someone.

There comes a point when you have a right to express a boundary and ask for it to be respected. We kept on making excuses for our son for years and what did we create? An even bigger problem which caused massive long-term damage to everyone else in the house while out BPD son stepped over the wounded and carried on regardless.

If you don't want to make this into an ultimatum could you reaffirm and rephrase your boundary in a new way? Say "if you curse in my house I have the right to stop the conversation and walk out of the room?"

That makes it about what you can do rather than about what he must do.

Now, we tried this and my son came after us like the terminator so eventually when he got in my face again I did tell him I would call the police if he wouldn't leave. he didn't like it, but he didn't come back without our express permission either.

I'm sorry everyone, but Six does have a right to not be afraid in her own home.

[Thursday]

I've learned a lot about boundaries. When to have a boundary and why to have a boundary and how to establish a boundary and what is the difference between a boundary and a value.

A boundary needs to be given some mulling over because it isn't a boundary if there isn't a consequence for it being crossed (otherwise why have a boundary?).

When BPDSD22 was a teen we had a boundary about her friends not being allowed in the house when we weren't there. She had to get permission to have anyone in our home.  She had to give 24 hours notice before a sleep-over and we had to have met the girl invited for a sleepover over dinner in our home before they could spend the night. These were two separate events. First the meal. Then she could invite the girl for another night. Her Dad and I had veto power over having a friend spend the night if we felt they were a negative influence

We had this boundary for many reasons.

1) SD was inviting "insta-friends" to sleep over and several times these girls she didn't really know stole or damaged items in our home, invited other people to sneak into our home, brought in drugs or alcohol.

2) Because I came into the family after she already had established friends I deserved a chance to meet them before hosting a sleep-over.

3) SD would let kids who missed the bus over to our home (we lived within walking distance of the school) with no notice. Often SD was trying to curry favor with this kid (due to the other kid's bad behavior at school because SD was attracted to the "bad kids"... . we didn't want to foster SD's maladaptive social relationships.)

4) If the kid had to eat a family dinner with us they got to witness our values and often, the unsavory kids would find this too much effort especially if they were just using SD for whatever she had offered. (believe me, she would offer someone the moon if they were more popular than she was and they would let her hang around with them).

We established these boundaries in a written contract that we read aloud to SD. We had her read it out loud herself and sign each paragraph and we had little review during a monthly family. SD actually used to love the family meetings because we would either play a game or watch a movie afterwards.

The consequence for these boundaries was easy, if she didn't comply the invited kid had to go home or back to school. If she had expectations that we would be more lenient she quickly found out that the above boundaries were solid as a brick wall.

So, the difference between a value and a boundary? My value in this case isn't just a one word piece... . I value not being surprised by unplanned visitors- or IOW I value my privacy. I value my personal safety and the safety of my personal belongings. I could not trust that SD's motivations would insure my personal safety. I also value my SD and wanted her to have the space to find respect for herself.

The boundaries I had around her having friends over enforced these values by giving consequences if the rules weren't followed.

I had to send strange teenagers home or back to school in the rain several times before SD would remember to call me to ask permission to bring them home. She eventually got the message... . after she got enough cr^p from these kids at school after their expensive shoes and flat-ironed hair got wet. Bwah-ha-ha (evil me)

I also believe you have to choose your battles. When you set a boundary you have to be clear about what the boundary is AND you have to be able to follow through with the consequences. It sounds like you don't want to call the police. Sounds like your therapist has set this boundary, not you. What did you tell your son when you told him you

would not tolerate swearing in our house

I think he needs to have clarity about what will happen when he does. I would guess that he doesn't swear around his GF or at work because his GF and his work have clarified "why not" or maybe he is simply being more respectful of these two entities because he doesn't want to lose them. Can you gain his respect by sticking to your boundary? If he comes over, he obviously wants to be in your presence so it seems like a consequence where you remove yourself or ask him to leave is key (and you are the only one who can figure out how you want to enforce the boundary. I think we are more successful in establishing a boundary if it is something we can actually enforce... . such as ending a conversation. Calling the cops etc. seems like a lot of rigamarole, LOL>

Good luck to you! This is all so hard


thursday

[lever.]

I do agree, six, that you have the right not to be afraid in your own home and if your son came  after you making threats I would certainly ask him to leave even if I had to call the police to enforce it. I think on reflection it is important when we set a boundary to think in advance what the consequences of overstepping that line will be, so that we are prepared.

It is important that the consequences are proportionate and something that we feel able to follow through. A therapist can advise and point inconsistency out to us, but in the end we need to think through our own boundaries and consequences.

It is very difficult as excusing behaviour can lead to escalation but triggering shame and abandonment issues can also lead to difficulties. I have frequently got things wrong. I just get the feeling that you are not comfortable with the therapists advice.

[jellibeans]

I just wanted to clarify that six has not stated that she is fearful. I think that was someone else's thought but I do not think six is afraid. I could be wrong here but I think we are talking about his behavior and swearing. Now if six follows her T advise and asks him to leave her house that is when there could be conflict. It seems to me this kind of response should be avoided. Up holding a boundary doesn't have to be confrontational.

If you remove yourself then I do think he will understand he has crossed the line

Can I ask why your son felt the need to call you and your d a name? Maybe looking at what provoke this response would be helpful. Again it seems like you and your d seem to be the target of his anger.

[six]

thanks as usual for all of the responses and for giving me a lot to think about.  here is where I am with this.

1.  I am not afraid of him.  he is not threatening me in any physical way.  what I want is to live in a peaceful home where he is welcome as long as he can behave in a peaceful way.

2. what sets him off  has to do with my relationship with my other kids that he resents and my protectiveness of them from his taunting.  

3. my kids are capable of protecting themselves from his verbal abuse (they can leave the room or tell him they will not discuss it with him when he starts being mean).  I have a lot of guilt about how I did not protect them from him and from other types of verbal abuse that they encountered when they were young children and therefore I get triggered when he starts on them.  but I have discussed this with them and told them that they can take care of themselves in their relationship with him and I don't want to do it for them.  

4. when I set the boundary last summer I told him that I don't want to hear swearing in the house. I did  not state a clear consequence.  it is true that swearing is not dangerous but I feel it is indicative of a lack of acceptance on his part of my authority in our home.  he has always refused to accept that I have a right to set policy here, bec in his twisted thinking he has as much of a right as I do. perhaps my wanting peace and not swearing is a value and not a boundary.  in any event I feel like when I state any preference/boundary/value to him, the only way to actually back it up is to be prepared to call the police bec he always decides what he will or will not accept.

5. I do not want to call the police or ban him from the house.  I agree that it was my therapist's boundary and not mine.  should I get rid of the therapist?

6. I can get up and leave the room when he is provoking one of the other kids.  this will prevent a bigger explosion.  on the other hand, if I leave so as not to provoke a bigger reaction, how will he ever learn to take responsibility for his bad behavior?

7.  I spoke to a coach who recommended that I should remain loving but require that he be responsible for his behavior.  she recommended asking him ahead of time when he is supposed to come home for some reason, "will you be able to be kind to everyone at home?" if he says no, then he cant come.  what do you all think of this idea?  I am quite sure he will say no. perhaps that is the solution

[lever.]

It sounds like it might be your own boundary,six, in that you want respectful language in your home, but that it is the therapists consequence. That particular consequence has the potential to fuel his perception of unfair treatment.

Perhaps you could try to figure out a consequence you feel happier enforcing (eg refusing to respond while he is being disrespectful).

I don't think you necessarily have to ditch the therapist but she isn't there to dictate to you, more to help you think things through.

To my thinking being banned from the home would be more in proportion to threatening behaviour, but I do appreciate that being sworn and shouted at can be unpleasant.

I have similar guilt about younger sibling having been exposed to a lot in her early teens but have recently had a chat with her and she agreed that they are all adults now and she can set her own limits of what she will tolerate. I still get caught up and trapped between DD and other family members though, at times it is hard to avoid

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

Six

I really think you are making this more of a power struggle... . "you make the rules" "my authority in our home" These are all coming from a place of power and my experience with this is that no one wins. I think when dealing with a person with BPD you need a different approach. I do think leaving the room does send a strong message without banning him or refusing visits. I think if you actually tried this a few times you might see some improvement in his behavior... . and there will be less butting of heads. I think you could even state this to him before he comes over or when he arrives... . I like when you visit but I don't like the swearing... . I will be removing myself from the conversation if you swear... . I really think t can be that easy when you make it more about what you are willing to do rather than what you want to make him do... . I think going forward it is important to try and repair the relationship so he doesn't keep going back to these deep feelings of rejection and how you are choosing sides with your other daughters. That is really at the root and banning him or telling him he can't come over is really just taking you all back to that place.

I remember you posting what a great time you had recently when you went over with him and his girlfriend... . making more time like that I think would go a long way.

[crumblingdad]

A thought that you may also consider.  I agree with jellibeans idea of removing yourself.  Have you ever sat down once he is regulated again after the incident and asked him "I want to understand what it is that makes you upset enough to swear and since you did that (earlier/last night/whenever) what made you angry enough that you swore? 

Just curious if you've tried anything like that and getting feedback on how you can maintain the boundary and get his ideas on how to resolve it.

[pessim-optimist]

I also agree with others that following the therapist's advice would be further escalating the conflict rather than encouraging positive behavior.

I stated a boundary last summer to my BPDs26 that I would not tolerate swearing in our house.  He has been very explosive lately and a few weeks ago, he came home, was in the house for 5 minutes and called me and his sister each a swear word.  then he left the house.

Basically, he chose to swear, yet he respected your boundary that if he did that, he had to leave your house. (Is that how you set up your boundary last summer? If so, I would keep it, and be ready to call the police if he refused to leave - which most likely will not be necessary).

In this scenario - you are giving him another chance the next time he comes over... .

It is worth it having a conversation with him like others have suggested. It will make him feel heard and valued, and it also gives you an opportunity to express your desire to have him over and that he is always welcome as long as there is no yelling or swearing.