ignore what we in the regular world would call "rudeness?"

[123Phoebe]

I can see clearly from many events that he cannot fully trust me.  He has told me explicitly many times that he's not sure why I care for him.  He recently explained the "naive" thing in terms of my having "generously" rationalized some behavior of his, & him deciding that rationale, though he wanted it to be true, wasn't, & really, he was just a jerk. The point of saying all this is that I have no doubt he struggles w/complex feelings of guilt, vulnerability, desire, resentment, fear, regarding me ... .  but as long as he still wants to try & is willing to put in effort and try to push past the discomfort, I want to stick it out with him.

I'm going to veer a little off course here, but we can also validate their jerkiness, ya know?  He says it himself that he was just a jerk.  We can validate the jerkiness by speaking our truth, where our feelings are coming from when jerky behavior rears its ugly head.  We can stand up for ourselves without leaving the relationship.  Sometimes speaking up, stepping away (timeout/space of our own) can be very healing for everyone involved.  

I really respect you P&C and I know your heart is in the right place with your compassion for others.  I wonder though where the compassion is for yourself at times?  Where your truth lies... .   What I mean by that is, not putting someone else ahead of yourself, put yourself first!  Your feelings matter!  

There's an awful lot of focus on what he's doing and what he's probably feeling and how sad he must be because of this and that... .   What about you?  How do you really feel about being dismissed abruptly - separately from speculating about his BPD rationale?

He might be sincerely interested in knowing also... .    Knowing what your boundaries are.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[patientandclear]

Hmm.  Good new direction.  OK, I hear you. But this is where we run right into my questions on prio threads about whether the abrupt distancing is abusive/bad/something to reject, or acceptable/just an inherent part of living w/undiagnosed untreated BPD?

I've gone back & forth on that & debated it here.  With what has seemed like great guidance from many of you (Phoebe, Laelle, UFN, others) I've chosen to accept that he comes & goes. I've told him he can do so freely.but in my own mind, this is true b/c I am not his partner & we are not in a sexual r/s.  I wouldn't feel that way if we were.

Radically accepting his need to take space sometimes has helped me be calm-ish about this situation & focus on other things.  I would not radically accept "jerkiness," meaning, I would not tolerate nastiness or discourtesy or abuse. That's not his thing though. He distances.  And I've decided that is the core thing I have to radically accept if I am "staying."

I think when he referred to his own bad behavior in the naivete conversation, he meant when he left me & didn't really know why. Yes, this was excruciating for me, but challenging him on that now is going to make him pointlessly feel like crap, full of guilt, right? He knows he hurt me. I've chosen to return & build a friendship anyway. Do you think it's a good idea to process that stiff w/him? It seems to me that is almost never something uBPD folks can do.

I don't consider the current distancing "jerky."  He seems to do valuable work while he's away, and as I say, he seems t continue to push himself. I have no doubt that sticking with me in this friendship is very emotionally challenging for him. I guess I don't see the point in asking him to have capacities he doesn't, yet.

If he ever were to propose that we be together romantically though, I'd have to explain that that is a boundary for me. Having my partner/sexual companion just pull away is too hard for me.

For what it's worth, I write here about what is going on with him b/c that's the part I need help understanding. I feel like I understand why I'm doing what I'm doing. I care about him. He is trying. I'd rather not lose all that was good on the alter of BPD dysfunction. He is incredibly interesting and pushes and challenges me in ways few men I've known do. He is nice, thoughtful & kind ... .  when he's around. Again, that's why he's "only" my friend.

Yes, this is hard & sometimes confusing. If anyone knows how to make it otherwise, I'm all ears, but we don't seem to have a recipe for that! Meanwhile, I really appreciate the chance to ask your take on things that happen w/us occasionally, because my abandonment fears make me misread thing ssometimes, and my impulse to explain needs to be reined in, & sometimes, I just need a thumbs up that what's happening, though unusual, s OK.

Thanks so much for all the good counsel & reflection.

[waverider]

You seem to have a fuzziness over where radical acceptance stops and Boundaries start.

Let me flip this around and apply radical acceptance to your own needs. Things that really bug you, bug you, simple as that. You dont have to have a 100% balanced and justifiable reason why you draw the line where you do, learn to accept that. If it affects your mental well being and you can find no work around, then it is ok to make that a boundary no matter the effect on your partner.

Boundaries are about you, no one else.

You can drown in understanding and over analysis, when you should be coping and growing.

[KateCat]

Just want to say that I too am an observer who feels there's no need to "leave the relationship." Just maybe a need to de-personalize it--as has been suggested--and truly let go of the idea that it is a therapeutic relationship. (Not worry that he "struggles" or that he "is trying," or that he may fail at "sustained relationships." That's probably "his side of the street," in bpdfamily.com parlance, right?)

He sounds like an interesting and attractive guy. (And he must be, to have attracted you. And that 30-year-old as well. )

What happened after his last relationship terminated? You stepped in! Other guys should be so lucky! And, as maria1 notes, after you're gone, another lady will likely find him fascinating, sensitive, and just in need of the right foundational tools to build a relationship.

I wonder if, for this particular guy, his pattern may contain too many temporary rewards for him really to be committed to changing the way he does business. He would have a lot of work to do to change.

I think you should just continue to keep it all as "light" as you possibly can. (I know you're trying.)

And what waverider just said, too . . .

[KateCat]

You seem to have a fuzziness over where radical acceptance stops and Boundaries start.

Have you mentioned, P&C, whether you're discussing any of this with a counselor? If not, this might be the perfect opportunity to explore the reasons that this relationship is so compelling to you.

[patientandclear]

I'm on therapist #3 since the demise of our romantic r/s brought me to my knees.  I am seeing a woman who is a trauma specialist because it was clear to my other therapist that I was experiencing trauma reactions.  She's been great, but I have to say, she has zero concern about my continued connection to this man -- I think she thinks it's great that he has a good friend like me ... .  because of course he is also a trauma survivor and I think she finds it interesting that we are negotiating this terrain together in this way.  (I am more skeptical of it than she is.)

I don't think I am confused about boundaries, I think mine are just in a different place than some people's would be.  Mine are: I will not be sexually involved with him because it would be too hurtful to have him distance me like he does if we were doing that; and he can't be mean, abusive or non-reciprocal.  He has to make an effort, too (when I say he is trying, I am not saying "and therefore I need to help him," I'm saying "I will put in effort if he will, and he is".

I should also say -- I absolutely do not view this as a therapeutic relationship.  There was a little while in which I had that instinct and it went badly.  Quite a while ago I stopped trying to help or fix him, because it's bad for both of us.

That said, he just responded to my email.  He said he wouldn't just disappear if there was a problem, and wasn't sure why I thought his earlier email response was strange.  But he also said while we were clearing the air, he was offended at the way I approached our talk the last time we saw each other, because he thought I ignored his point of view or tried to out-argue him or didn't hear him.  Then he said "sometimes it feels like our talks are a continuous effort by you to save me."  So ... .  hmm.  On the one hand, I'm glad he felt able to say that.  On the other, it was hard to hear because I was not conscious of doing that, at all -- I thought I was totally respecting his viewpoint and taking it seriously and we were just having a serious but fun debate.  So this provides a useful window going forward.  As soon as I finish licking my wounds over being caught in "saving" mode by the very person I just assured you all I am not trying to save ... .  

[KateCat]

  Eyes wide open! 

[123Phoebe]

It's okay P&C, I think we've all been there, I have been for sure

When I stopped focusing on my friend's issues and started tending to my own needs, a funny thing happened... .    He started tending to my needs, too   I finally gave him access to the real me

[waverider]

This has been a very productive debate, and now has been locked in accordance with bpdfamily.com  4 page posting restricting policy.

If you wish to pick up and explore further any issues raised p[lease feel free to open a new topic to encourage fresh interaction

Thanks for your participation

Waverider