Progress

[Meili]

I had really hoped that by the time that I needed to start a new thread that I'd be moving to the "improving" board, but we're just not there yet.

It seems that one of the biggest hurdles to our reconciliation is the fact that my other ex, the one that I reached out to for support during my relationship with my x named me the executor and one of the beneficiaries of her will. I'll inherit a modest sum of money if she dies before me. My x hates that. She views it as a tie that binds the other ex and me.

I know that is my x's issue and that there is nothing that I can do about it. I can't force someone to change her will. I've written, and copied my x, telling her that I won't serve as her executor, etc. But, that isn't good enough for my x. Until the other ex dies, there's absolutely nothing that I can do about this situation. When the will is probated, then I can refuse to serve and turn down the bequest, but until that happens, or my other ex decides to take me out of the will, there's nothing I can do.

It saddens me that something that is ultimately out of my control is keeping us and will keep us apart.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[schwing]

Hi Meili,

I'll inherit a modest sum of money if she dies before me. My x hates that. She views it as a tie that binds the other ex and me.
I know that is my x's issue and that there is nothing that I can do about it. I can't force someone to change her will.

Consider that this situation with your other ex's will is not the cause of your x's "frantic efforts to avoid real of imagined abandonment" but rather only the lightning rod for feelings that are already there. If/when you have your other ex's will changed, her disordered feelings might not abate; perhaps they will only find a new lightning rod?

I've written, and copied my x, telling her that I won't serve as her executor, etc. But, that isn't good enough for my x. Until the other ex dies, there's absolutely nothing that I can do about this situation.

I would argue that even *after* your other ex dies, there is still nothing you can do about your x's feelings. She will perceive that you can still "abandon" her over a deceased woman, because her disordered feelings dictates that she will continue to have these feelings *regardless* of your action or inaction.

When the will is probated, then I can refuse to serve and turn down the bequest, but until that happens, or my other ex decides to take me out of the will, there's nothing I can do.

This being the case, why should you be persuaded into doing something that does not serve (or even hurts) your interests?

It saddens me that something that is ultimately out of my control is keeping us and will keep us apart.

Yes. Something that is ultimately out of your control is keeping you apart but it is not necessarily this will.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[Meili]

Thank you for the reminder schwing!

I was definitely focusing on the words and not what she was trying to convey.

Our morning started out well. There were some loving text message. We were making plans for a night out. She told me that my patience through all of this was sweet and loving.

Then her mother contacted her with problems in their family dealing with her abusive brother and his kids. We dealt with that together as much as we could. She thanked me for my help and I thanked her for trusting me enough to do so. She told me that I'm the only one that she'd trust in this situation.

Then things started to go downhill.

Looking at the whole of it, I can see where the intimate feelings and stress probably triggered the rest.

The whole thing concluded with my telling her that the thing with the will is out of my control. She can either accept it or not. I have no control over that either. I should have started there, but didn't think of it.

I will note that throughout the whole discussion, she reassured me several times that we are ok and nothing has really changed for us. That was pretty cool of her to do. She's still trying to decide if she can deal with her fears that I will abandon her for another woman.

[Meili]

I want to brag on my x for a minute... .

I know that a lot of negativity gets posted on these boards; so, I want to post about a good interaction.

Last night, I became very insecure about everything that has been going on over the past few weeks with my x and the fact that she isn't ready to let people know that we're talking and spending time together or whatever. I ended up forgetting everything that I've learned here and we got into an argument. I was triggered, she got triggered, it got bad.

I apologized to her this morning and explained what was going on inside of me. She apologized to me for handling it poorly, and gave me some reassurances. The reminder that we aren't a couple kind of hurt a bit, but it's true; we aren't.

Rather than just continuing to be upset with me, she was very sweet when we talked. Actually addressing the underlying issue that started the fight is a new thing for us too. I thank her for helping me do that.

She's been making some really good changes in the way that she deals with me and us. I would love to say that it is the result of my applying what I've learned here to make her feel more safe and comfortable, but I can't take the credit for this one. Her showing me love and respect is all hers.

I still wish that she was at the point that she wants to be a couple again, but that is out of my control. She's been very honest all along that she may never get to that point. We have each done a lot of damage to the other and the relationship. Last night was a painful replay of what happened to us in the past. I suppose that it's a good thing that we both recognize what happened and how we could have handled it differently, and let the other know. The waiting is just hard.

[schwing]

Last night, I became very insecure about everything that has been going on over the past few weeks with my x and the fact that she isn't ready to let people know that we're talking and spending time together or whatever. I ended up forgetting everything that I've learned here and we got into an argument. I was triggered, she got triggered, it got bad.

What is the issue with letting people know "that [you're] talking and spending time together"?
Are you being asked to not talk to other people about your interactions?  And why?
Is there a concern with gossiping?

I apologized to her this morning and explained what was going on inside of me. She apologized to me for handling it poorly, and gave me some reassurances. The reminder that we aren't a couple kind of hurt a bit, but it's true; we aren't.

So my understanding is that you want to be a couple and she isn't ready for that. Perhaps she'll be ready for that later. Perhaps not?

Are you deferring your needs in this situation? If you would like to be in a position where you can be investing in a relationship that has the potential to develop into courtship, do you need to necessarily be limited to this one relationship?

If you are not a couple, are you free to date other women?

I still wish that she was at the point that she wants to be a couple again, but that is out of my control.

My thought is that, if you didn't keep your eggs all in one basket, maybe it would be less difficult for you to continue to cultivate your relationship with her?

The waiting is just hard.

Don't focus on the waiting.  Focus on something new?

Best wishes,

Schwing

[Meili]

What is the issue with letting people know "that [you're] talking and spending time together"?
Are you being asked to not talk to other people about your interactions?  And why?
Is there a concern with gossiping?

It is about letting a specific group of people know. The girl that my x assaulted has started trouble at a place where my x is a vendor. It is also the place where her exbf (my replacement) works. So, my x is afraid that it will bring drama and gossip into her life and cause her problems. Given the group of people, I can completely see that it would. Alternatively, the exbf really isn't an ex at this point.

So my understanding is that you want to be a couple and she isn't ready for that. Perhaps she'll be ready for that later. Perhaps not?

Correct. Although, we act like a couple a lot of the time.

Are you deferring your needs in this situation? If you would like to be in a position where you can be investing in a relationship that has the potential to develop into courtship, do you need to necessarily be limited to this one relationship?

If you are not a couple, are you free to date other women?

Yes, I am deferring some of my needs for the time being. I am doing so because so many of my other needs are being met.

No, I'm not free to date other women if I want to have a chance with her. She's made that really clear.

My thought is that, if you didn't keep your eggs all in one basket, maybe it would be less difficult for you to continue to cultivate your relationship with her?

Not doing so would make it impossible. But, we must remember that I betrayed her with another woman once, so she's afraid that I will do it again. While I know that since we aren't a couple that I wouldn't actually be betraying her because there is no relationship, I also know that she would view it as a betrayal.

Don't focus on the waiting.  Focus on something new?

I need to do that. It's hard switching gears again after almost constant contact for a week, talking about having a vacation with her in a few weeks, talking about doing things together, etc. I know that I need to reset again and do my own thing while she does hers.

Again, thanks for the reminders!

[Meili]

More bragging about my x (because I can!)... .

She has been extraordinarily sweet, caring, considerate, and loving since yesterday. And, don't think that she's idealizing me either. She's being open and honest about her feelings. We've had some really good interactions.

It feels very strange to me, and actually makes me quite nervous because of my FOO, to receive this type of treatment. I'm not used to someone actually showing me that I matter and that I'm important. Being able to vocalize my concerns and insecurities without it turning into an argument is really nice. And, it isn't like she's acting like I'm the only thing that matters in the world either, so it seems very real.

Anyway, I have shared many bad things, so I thought that I'd share the good as well.

[JJacks0]

Glad to hear things are going well for you.  You've been very helpful me to me the past few days.

Hope things keep looking up!

[foggydew]

That sounds really rewarding, Meili. You seem to have found a good way to reassure her and let her stay in touch with her emotions without the BPD kicking in. I do hope it continues like that. You have worked hard enough for it!

[Meili]

Thank you both. For whatever reason, I woke with doubts this morning. I can assume that it is the years of programming from my FOO (it almost always is), and my own impatience. So many wonderful things have been happening; I need to stay focused on those, myself, and making sure that my needs are being met.

I now have to figure out how to meet the needs that she can't meet right now. It looks like this is where the hard work begins.

[patientandclear]

I've not been asking this question because i hate to introduce negativity in what is a really positive outlook, and I admire your in-the-momentness, but: is she still seeing the other guy? I ask this because my ex is fantastically open and loving with when he's seeing someone else (and frankly, in our case, as long as he knows he CAN see someone else, which in the past has proven a non-theoretical option). He's like the ultimate triangulator. He can invest in the r/ship when all his eggs are not in that basket. I have to bear in mind that the same thing is true of his other r/ships--my presence in his life seems to make it easier for him to go deeper with other women. It's like he divides his intimacy ration, allocates it btwn two or more people, and thus guards against loss, risk, and the other threats intimacy seems to pose to him.

Some things you wrote a few posts ago made me wonder whether the non-resolution of the "status" of this ("we are not a couple" and the non-disclosure of it to others and your uncertainty re what's going on with the other guy are bothering you and you're trying to stuff that down. Is that what you're referring to re meeting other needs?

Far, far be it from me to say that an arrangement that is vague as to status and involves permanent triangulation is not worth the investment. I did it for a long time and still have some anxiety about my choice to discontinue that arrangement. I did discontinue it because after a lot of soul searching I realized it was making me feel like crap to have this amazing loving r/ship and then have him professing love to others. And not acknowledging our r/ship openly and even to me, denying its "status." But that is a super personal reaction. Others may be able to make their peace with this, and if you feel you can (if my description is accurate), more power to you.

Apologies if this is resolved in your mind and this is a deviation from the direction in which you want to take the thread. Just wondered if the feelings you are posting about this am are coming from somewhere more significant than "she won't even want to go to concerts with me so I'll need to do that with others," or unmet needs at that level.

[Meili]

To my knowledge, there are no other men in her life other than male friends that she has no romantic interest in. Of course, I have no way of knowing for sure, so I just have to trust her on this.

You are correct. One of the big needs is the lack of the label and commitment. Before I realized that I was deserving and worthy of love, a true, committed love, I would have been ok with this. This is a relatively new change for me that she probably isn't actually aware of.

But, there are other needs that I must have met, like making me a priority - if not the priority.

Some secondary needs like affection and touch are also missing.

I know that she needs time and space to work on her stuff, but I also know that I'm deserving too. Sooner or later one of us is going to have to make a choice to move us off center.

Maybe I'm expecting too much too soon. I realize that our working on reconciling is far newer for her than it is for me.

[patientandclear]

The affirmation that you want and are worthy of true, committed, acknowledged love is super important. That is a great way of phrasing the shift in my own sense of self that ultimately led me to set boundaries that my BPDex can't (so far) work with.

Not saying the woman in your life is like or will behave like my ex. But my fallacy lay in thinking that because he could build intimacy with me in a non-committed unacknowledged context, that that could or would grow into something acknowledged or committed. With us it has been the opposite: the unacknowledged/uncommitted quality so far appears essential for him to invest intimately with me. (For me even that might be fine if seeing others didn't come with the uncommitted territory, but it does. Even if it didn't, the lack of acknowledgement itself or active denial of the nature of the r/ship over time -- "we are not a couple" whenever I needed to discuss something with him that flowed from the fact that we WERE a de facto couple, like you're saying -- ate at me.)

I understand you are taking it slow, exploring and being patient. Just flagging that I'm not sure some of these needs ARE things you can meet by yourself, because unless you change your values, you're saying you have a (healthy and understandable) need for the nature of the r/ship not to be denied or buried by your person.

[Meili]

I agree, some (if not most) are not needs that I can meet for myself. The fact that I have needs and I'm worthy of having them met is a fairly new concept for me though, so I'm still working through all of it.

I won't stay in this holding pattern indefinitely, that much I know. I owe it to myself not to do that.

[Meili]

Things have been progressing, slowly, but progressing none-the-less.

My x has been making efforts to make sure that more of my needs are being met, and I've been trying to be consistent, open, communicative (in a healthy way), and to provide her with a sense of safety and security with me.

It seems like the only times that things take a turn for the worse lately is when she feels that I'm pressuring her. We were talking this morning and it happened. I had no idea that certain things that I said were pressuring. In my mind they weren't, but in hers they are.

A quick analysis of our recent conversations and how they change from light and happy to more how things used to be reveals that every time that the conversation turns to one about the r/s (past or future), she gets overwhelmed. Simple solution then, I need not to make any mention of anything that might resemble a discussion about "us."

I know not to instigate a discussion about our past r/s or a possible future one. But, what seems to be happening is that when I even mention certain things, it triggers the same overwhelming feelings for her and she views it as my pressuring for immediate reconciliation. This even happens when I'm talking about something in the future.

It never occurred to me that my talking about something "if/when" she's ready to do something that didn't actually have to do with us as a couple would be taken that way. She did attempt to explain to me how this plays out in her mind. I don't actually understand it, but I accept that it does.

Hopefully today's snafu won't create too much of a ripple effect for her.

[schwing]

Hi Meili,

My x has been making efforts to make sure that more of my needs are being met, and I've been trying to be consistent, open, communicative (in a healthy way), and to provide her with a sense of safety and security with me.

It seems like the only times that things take a turn for the worse lately is when she feels that I'm pressuring her. We were talking this morning and it happened. I had no idea that certain things that I said were pressuring. In my mind they weren't, but in hers they are.

Don't forget that you are not only juggling with keeping her issues managed, but you are also juggling with your own.  Depending on the amount of time you are spending with her, and the nature of that time spent, you may be becoming more attached to her (and thus rely on her) than you realize.

It is hard enough to keep track on one's own heart in a developing relationship, you are monitoring two, and two with very different behaviors.

A quick analysis of our recent conversations and how they change from light and happy to more how things used to be reveals that every time that the conversation turns to one about the r/s (past or future), she gets overwhelmed. Simple solution then, I need not to make any mention of anything that might resemble a discussion about "us."

I know not to instigate a discussion about our past r/s or a possible future one. But, what seems to be happening is that when I even mention certain things, it triggers the same overwhelming feelings for her and she views it as my pressuring for immediate reconciliation. This even happens when I'm talking about something in the future.

I wonder if she wants to believe that your relationship can truly begin anew (from scratch) when frankly, I don't think it can. You have history with her. And while she might be able to disconnect from that history, I don't think you can. I don't see this as your fault or her fault but as an incompatibility due to your different psyches (i.e. non and BPD).

In a fair relationship, both parties can make sacrifices to accommodate. I don't think she can make very many.

It never occurred to me that my talking about something "if/when" she's ready to do something that didn't actually have to do with us as a couple would be taken that way. She did attempt to explain to me how this plays out in her mind. I don't actually understand it, but I accept that it does.

You'll need to decide if at some point, you lose more than you gain. Again, one of my suggestions is not to put all your eggs in this basket. It helps both of you if you can maintain sufficient distance.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[Meili]

Don't forget that you are not only juggling with keeping her issues managed, but you are also juggling with your own.  Depending on the amount of time you are spending with her, and the nature of that time spent, you may be becoming more attached to her (and thus rely on her) than you realize.

It is hard enough to keep track on one's own heart in a developing relationship, you are monitoring two, and two with very different behaviors.

This is very true, I have become more attached than I'm comfortable with right now. I did get wrapped up in all of the loving, nice treatment that she gives to me and our making plans for future events.

I've begun to make slight changes to get things back to where I need them to be with myself. I'm starting to detach a bit again, and looking for things to do that don't involve her. A form of not putting all my eggs in one basket that doesn't involve other women and doesn't cause more problems. It also allows for distance between us.

It's really easy to fall back into old habits though. I'll have to talk to my therapist about all of this and see if I can figure out why I get sucked back in so easily.

I wonder if she wants to believe that your relationship can truly begin anew (from scratch) when frankly, I don't think it can. You have history with her. And while she might be able to disconnect from that history, I don't think you can. I don't see this as your fault or her fault but as an incompatibility due to your different psyches (i.e. non and BPD).

No, she does not think that it can be a new r/s. That's the thing that holds her back. She cannot disconnect from the history. There are too many trust and abandonment issues there for her. She's just waiting for me to walk away from her again or do some of the things that I used to do when we were fighting.

[Meili]

I know that I normally don't post about the day to day things in whatever it is that is going on between my x and me, but I felt this one was important to share with others who are going through similar experiences.

As you may know, my x and I talk a lot about reconciling. At present, she doesn't want any of her friends (who are all males) to know about that and "hides" our involvement from them.

One of her male friends invited her on a week-long trip to Bonaire. She would have to pay for nothing. I suggested that I meet the guy first to understand that there's nothing going on there. I also suggested that she explain to him what's going on between us and ask if I could go with. Neither was acceptable to her.

I told her that she's welcome to go, but I'm can't try to work something out with someone who will continue to disrespect me like that. In fact, if going was that important to her, she should go.

The boundary was established. I went through the normal accusations about how controlling I am. How I won't allow her to do anything. How I won't allow her to have friends. Etc. I held firm to my boundary.

She even told me that there was no chance of us reconciling now and cancelled this weekend's camping trip that we had planned. I still held fast.

She accused me of making ultimatums for enforcing my boundaries. I felt everything that she wanted me to feel for doing so; I felt guilt, I felt shame, I felt bad for her. Yet, I knew that if I didn't stand behind my boundary that was the end of everything that I have worked on and I'd become a doormat again.

She even went so far as to tell me that if I didn't remove the boundary that there was no chance of reconciling. I didn't budge.

It did hurt. I did feel like a jerk and that I was being controlling. I felt like a small, little, insecure man. I've been conditioned to respond this way. Yet, still I maintained.

In the end, she's extremely angry with me. She's still pushing that boundary. I'm still not moving. But, she's still talking about reconciliation and us going camping this weekend also. I have little hope that either will happen at this point, but that may be because this is the first significant boundary that we've come up against.

The important thing is that I protected myself and my needs and the world didn't come to a screeching halt. I know that many of us on these boards are terrified of establishing boundaries. We are afraid that the person we love will walk away when faced with having to respect us. That's just because we've been conditioned to believe that this is true.

The simple reality behind that is that if the other people in our lives cannot respect our boundaries, then they do not respect us. If they do not respect us we have taught them that is acceptable. Until we start to do something different, that won't change however.

And, change is hard and scary. A reality of life is that change only occurs when the pain of where we are at becomes greater than the fear of the outcome of the change. The disrespect that I've felt became far greater than the fear of losing my x forever. If I didn't stop the disrespect, it was a given that it would continue and I'd be doomed to a life as a doormat.

[foggydew]

Well done, Meili. I think that is the kind of practical information we all need to hear. The first point is respecting yourself, if you can't do that, it is one big struggle without hope or comfort. You have the knowledge that you take yourself seriously.

[patientandclear]

This is just a great account of doing what you need to do to possibly make things better.

Of course the hardest part is that you truly do have to let go of the outcome.  My ex responds to such boundaries with long term disappearance or refusal to continue on terms that work for me.  I have never yet had the experience of setting a boundary with him and having him continue to engage me while respecting that boundary. About a year down the road, sometimes he reappears and says he is willing to move on the issue.  (So far, he has not ACTUALLY been willing to move on the issue.)

I hope your outcome is happier than mine, but everything you wrote here makes all kinds of sense.  Good for you.

[Meili]

Thank you. There were multiple text messages and phone calls that followed my posting. I'm still giving her an ultimatum, still being controlling, still being a jerk, still not trusting her,, still not allowing her to be herself or have friends,  etc. I'm still not waivering though.

[Meili]

UPDATE:

So, things have been going really well with my x. We've been spending a lot of time together, hanging out together, making plans to do things together, etc.

Then, my landlord told me that I need to move. She offered me a room at her place provided that I pay half the bills. That sounded like a great deal to me. Then it happened... .

She told me that she was nervous about my living there because she couldn't have the freedom that she desires. I respect that, and her fears are justified. I was content just being friends while she worked out her fears regarding our past and to build trust with me. But, I have no desire to watch her flirt with other men and have them stay over at the house, even if in the spare bedroom.

So, I told her that I share her fears; that I won't be able to handle just being friends while living with her. I also told her that I really have no desire to just be her friend period. I'm comfortable with the notion that she may not want anymore from me and she'll move on. If she hasn't decided that I'm worth the risk after the last three months, then I'm not worth the risk to her and I will be to someone else.

[JJacks0]

Hi Meili,

Glad to hear that things have been going pretty well for you.

How did she respond to what you told her about just being friends?

[ArleighBurke]

Fantastic job a few weeks back sticking to your boundary (re her trip away with a man)!

So, I told her that I share her fears; that I won't be able to handle just being friends while living with her. I also told her that I really have no desire to just be her friend period.

Giving her the ultimatum on the relationship is good. It does force her to decide to jump in or out. And both answers allow you to move forwards.

But, I have no desire to watch her flirt with other men and have them stay over at the house, even if in the spare bedroom.

Do you know this is happenning? If it was - then forcing her to choose is a great thing.

So now you can see what she answers with... .

[Meili]

Yes, she was openly flirting in front if me. Of course, she told me that I was wrong aND over reacting, she was just being nice and making a new friend.

As of right now, she does not want a relationship with me. She still just wants me to give her more time, etc. She is going on the trip with the other guy (in fact, he's been staying at her house all week).

So, she gets all the time and space she needs. I'm moving forward with my life.

It felt really good to stand up for myself and my needs.

[patientandclear]

It is a good feeling. But/and, there will also be profound feelings of loss. You've been trying really hard and she's been a huge part of your inner landscape. And--she will very likely make major efforts to prevent you from drifting away/leaving the farm, even to the point of strongly suggesting she has changed or might change her mind. You are too valuable an emotional partner to just let go of.

I'm sorry. As you know, I really relate to your situation. I support you 1000% in your current resolve. You are making good on your commitments to yourself and to her about limits.

[Meili]

Thank you PnC.

This has already proven true today:

And--she will very likely make major efforts to prevent you from drifting away/leaving the farm, even to the point of strongly suggesting she has changed or might change her mind.

We travel in the same social circle, and I asked her about attending the same events this morning; many of which she hosts. She told me that it would depend on how we are together. The conversation that followed was pretty much that she still wants me in her life and to try to see if I have changed enough for us to reconcile. By this, she means if I am going to stop caring about her and other guys. My position on this is that I will be friendly with her and treat her like I do all of my other friends who are not in my inner circle.

Unfortunately, she's a part of my emotional landscape as well. It's difficult, as I'm sure that we all know, to not chase her like I once would have. It's really weird sitting here at work without chatting with her like we have for almost two years now. The only thing that is keeping me from doing that is me though. I'm sure that if I sent her something, she'd respond. But, I'm not emailing any of my other friends, so why would I email her?

I'm still dealing with the disbelief that things have played out this way. She's been acting as if we are a couple in so many ways. But, when it doesn't suit her desire at the moment, she reminds me that we are not.

I'm just glad that I'm not an emotional wreck like I was when our relationship ended. I can see a bright future for myself without or with her in my life (in whatever capacity that is).

[patientandclear]

It sounds like she wants what my ex wanted: many attributes of a partnership, without the accountability and acknowledgment that comes with that. I would often feel confused about whether my own refusal to go along with that was somehow wrong or unfair or a failure of imagination. A friend said at one point "what he wants is a BPD thing--don't get confused about whether it could be healthy or OK." What she wants is a very BPD thing.

You're in a tough position because the difference between viable and non-viable to continue is so subtle. It's really about her intentions and her need to assert that she does not belong to you. But meanwhile you feel like a couple, it's so enjoyable, etc. I've been there, exactly there. I imagine you have some disbelief that she would actually make the choice she's currently making. I know I did--it seems like a huge loss on favor of not much.

But for my ex, I believe settling for a real person who has been a source of hurt or disappointment (which we all eventually are) is a loss of hope; and being with someone who really knows him feels super threatening; and both are managed by insisting on a degree of distance that is conveniently guaranteed by him retaining the prerogative to pursue other women. It doesn't make sense to me but it makes sense to him. It is very stable and persistent. So far, he has traded our actually wonderful r/ship for the potential of more with someone else or for the freedom of a "friends" status. It's hard to accept he would do that but he consistently does.

I'd predict she will confuse the waters as much as she can to see if she can restore you to the closest possible posture without making a full commitment to you. And that that will be hard to say no to. My solidarity to you, Meili. It's a hard dynamic.

[Meili]

Thank you PNC.

It was very strange last night. I was at an event and so was one her guy friends. One who I had met and they really are just friends. He and I started talking. After about his 6th whiskey and coke, he asked me what happened between my x and me the other day. I explained. He told me that I'm an idiot, that she really loves me and wants to be with me,  and just needs a little time to work some stuff out.

Now, did she ask him to talk to me, or does he know things I don't?  We'll never know the answer to that.  I do know that my position hasn't changed.  I'm still going to treat her like any other friend in the group; not close friends. She won't know anything that is going on in my life, and certainly won't get any of the "bf benefits."

[Meili]

Yesterday she went off on me because we had both been invited to the same event by her, presumably, well-meaning friend. She contacted me and asked if I was going. I had not decided and told her that. My x asked me not to go because she wanted some time apart. I agreed. Thas when she started to get really angry; telling me that she shouldn't have to ask for time apart. I should just not talk to her friends or be places she or they are because she needs time and space. Her ultimate solution: we are done forever.

She also told me that she like a mean witch for asking me not to around, that she's extremely stressed, and that she hates that her wishes hurt me. She said that she would normally just sick it up and deal with her insecurity but can't right now because of everything she has going on.

I told her that I understand and that I'd stay away from her and the events that her and her friends will be at, and that I'd not contact her again or accept contact from her friends. At this point, she got even more upset and told me that I should just take over her group of friends and all the events that she normally plans.

This all took place through a series of text messages and phone calls. Each time that I would end the discussion, she would contact me again.

At some point, after telling me that we're over forever, she told me that she doesn't know what our future holds. She just meets time and space to calm down and heal. I again assured her that I'll vanish from her world. That's not what she wants apparently. I received an email at 1 am asking if I also received a similar notification from Yahoo. Neither of us use Yahoo.

So, I know that she dysregulated because of the stress and her feeling like a bad person for hurting me and being a mean witch. All that I can think if to do from here is not initiate any contact.

[ArleighBurke]

How is your conversational Validation?

I'm just wondering, because when she says

My x asked me not to go because she wanted some time apart.

You say you agreed not to go - being logic. Was there any exploring what she was feeling? Was there Validation?

Not sure if it'll help or not - it certainly sounds like she is very conflicted - but I just wanted to ask... .

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Meili]

We did discuss why she didn't want me to go, and I validated the valid; that she was overwhelmed, stressed, and feeling pressured by everything in her life, including me.

I did not validate things like her claiming other people as her friends and demanding that I have no contact with them; including people we had just met together. Or, that I am not allowed to attend public functions that she may or may not be at. I did try to get to the underlying fear there and validate that. She has completely dysregulated by that point and was not making any sense.

We did talk for a bit after that, and she started to calm down. the conversation ended with my wishing her a good time and hopes that she take care of herself. That was followed be a couple of text messages from her. That's when she apologized for being so mean and hurtful and telling me that she was just too overwhelmed to control her emotions.

Her friend, the one that I had been hanging out with, invited me to do something yesterday. I declined and explained why. His position is that he's not going to allow her to dictate who he is friends with and that I shouldn't either.  I agree. I need not reinforce her bad behavior.

At this point, I'm just proceeding under the notion that we have no future together as she said, while not completely closing the door on the idea that anything is possible.

I am giving her the time and space that she requested and am letting her deal with the problems that she has created that have overwhelmed her.

[Meili]

I'm not sure if this is encouraging or not, but I had a short convo with my x today. It was all very vague on both sides and centered around the changes I am making and happening in my life.

She told me that she doesn't see what is happening as a devastation, but rather a change, to view it all as a phoenix, and that it is her hope that I'll emerge brighter than before. I made a comment about it being painful and some things are lost along the journey. She told me that she thought about how much it has cost me to get where I'm going. She wouldn't elaborate on what she meant by that; just that she's sure that I know what it cost me more than she does. 

Perhaps I'm just being optimistic and grabbing a hold of all of the kibble that is thrown at me? I do view her acknowledging that there is no devastation, only change, her hope for my changing the things that cause me the most problems (namely, my lack of trust and insecurities), and her refusal to remind me that she ended things between us as good signs.

[Meili]

Well, NC has not worked. I contacted her for the first few days. Then I reminded myself that I must stop. She contacted me yesterday about our mutual friend. Yano, the one that is "her friend" and I'm "supposed to" stay away from. Apparently, his gf kicked him out and he needs a place to stay, so I guess that my x thought he could come and stay with me? This is very confusing to me since she doesn't want me talking to him or whatever.

So far, today, there is nothing but a comfortable silence between my x and me, and I don't see that changing. I'm actually ok with that though. It makes things easier.

[ArleighBurke]

Meili, I think you need to mentally "move on". Accept that the relationship is over. It may re-start - perhaps in the future you can reconcile - but for now assume it's over and move on emotionally.

[Meili]

I actually talked to my T about that very thing today, AB.

I told her that I thought that I was in denial about it ending, and she pointed out that I'm not because I am completely aware that it is over. I have zero expectation that there is going to be any sort of relationship.

I have continued to post in this thread, rather than on the detached board, because of how things have played out for her and me historically.

[Meili]

I have continued to post in this thread, rather than on the detached board, because of how things have played out for her and me historically.

And, history was proven itself true once again... .but with a twist this time.

After she told me that we have no future together, I have just done my own thing and stopped worrying about what she might think. Her "best friend" (who I've mentioned is a male) and I have been hanging out. (This is what caused her to dysregulate and tell me that we have no future.) I figured that it didn't matter if I hung out with him at this point because she was done with me. He and I went on a motorcycle trip last weekend. We've talked about another trip at the end of the month. Since I have to move, he's asked about my getting a bigger place and his being my roommate, etc. etc. etc.

Yesterday was his birthday and my x planned a small party. He invited me. It was nice. I was unintentionally a jerk to my x (still hurt about everything). I was just trying to joke around and have fun. It didn't come across that way though. I can see that now.

After the party, there was a lot of text messages from my x about how horrible I am. How badly I treat her. How my actions don't match my words. And, once again, how we have no future together.

I told her that I had to go to sleep. That if she wanted to talk more to contact me today and that if she didn't, I would accept that we have no future and act accordingly.

Well, she called me this morning. More about how I acted the night before, and she brought up that she doesn't like my hanging out with her best friend, or any of her friends really, even though they are the ones inviting me to do things. I'm "supposed to" politely decline.

I'm kind of at a loss with this. I feel compelled to stand my ground and be friends with whomever I choose, but at the same time, I know that doing that will just push her away.

It isn't fair to me or the people that want to hang out with and spend time with me  if I allow her to exercise control like that. But, is it really worth the risk of pushing her away?

[Lilyroze]

Meili,

The title progress is wonderful for the progress you have made to see the problem, try to address, try in the relationship, and look within. You have gotten counseling, saw your part in, tried with her and are nurturing yourself and soul now.

You are on this board so I won't say much. I will say when and if you move to another there are so many more beautiful things that can and will happen in your life. Not from her, or your past relationship or trying for one now but the work you are doing on and for you.

There is a situation called opiate-inducing experience of inconsistent reinforcement. Staying calls relentless hope.  Inconsistency is what keeps people going. "There’s something about the idea that maybe, maybe, if I just hang in there or I just change myself or just appreciate this nice stuff I get, I’ll get it all the time. But an intermittent relationship tends to be an intermittent relationship. I have never seen where somebody is on again/off again, and then is suddenly on all the time. In the very beginning, sure, but over time, no."

If someone were trying and not limiting your friendships so quite frankly they could tell the friend one thing and you another. There is so many factors here that aren't right. Whether a couple or not, you either involve other men as a woman or not. You try and are all in or not. Yes, trust might need to be built up again, friendship etc. but well... .There is many factors here pointing to controlling your friendships, your going places, and accepting not nice behavior. Yes, she can go on trips you are not a couple, and well she is. I am glad you have accepted her needs, wants ( as selfish as some are, whom are we to say).

But YOU, you deserve love, a good friendship, an equal partnership, a good life. There is someone waiting for you, or will find you if and when you let go of that which no longer serves you. Only you will know if you can, will or want to. Just realize that all changes and the love someone has for you to wait, or another to come will change as their path changes. Don't throw away waiting for a selfish person to change. They don't. I have followed your story for awhile now. My heart goes out to you and did her for awhile. BPD or not there is no excuse for lack of respect.

All the crying, blaming, upset for emotional affair, I understand and respect her feelings. But now not for what has been happening for months is involving other men on trips,etc. Your life your choice.

There’s some profound way in which you don’t feel loved here, but it’s very hard to be able to say, “You just don’t give me what I need. Or appreciate me. Or know me.” Or, “It doesn’t feel good for me to be with you.” It takes a long time to accept that how you feel about that is legitimate, and that the implication is that you don’t belong with this person.It was so much about not being able to give up because it felt like a failure, or like I was unlovable or had no power. The power you’re seeking is to make that person love you, to get the response you need. The moment when you really take in that it’s not possible to do that is the moment that you’re liberated.

This is the beautiful part. "The first thing you have to recognize is that this comes from someplace in you." It’s not just that this person is rude. You found her and you accepted her, even though there were signs that it was bad. You have to look at your own history, and at what made this happen lots of time they say due to a parents marriage and staying when they should have left. It could come from your history, not in a knee-jerk way, but in a very subtle way. Look for the connection and parallel and identification. Ask yourself, “What in this relationship looks like my parents’ marriage at its worse?" Even if they stayed together and it wasn’t so bad, how I am reliving their problems?"

Her attitude toward you no matter how much kindness, friendship, trying, gifts is still selfish. There are many women are there full of love, integrity, and you do have choices. If you love her great, but love is not what you are getting back right now. Before maybe, not now. Lack of respect and integrity are the basis of a person, BPD or not. Look within and look outside and see for yourself and do what is best.

I am not here to judge her, assume or tell you what to do . At the same time psychology doesn't always have to be politically correct to build up someone who doesn't deserve it.

Best regards and blessing to you either way. May love cross your path, and heart with someone who deserves it from you as well.

Angel

[Meili]

There is no disputing any of that LR. I greatly appreciate your thoughtful post, and I've given it some thought.

What I do know is that I must love me; that's where the love comes from not another person.

My FOO plays a the lead role in my actions and choices. This is why I'm in therapy.

I'm not her puppet the way that I used to be. This change has been gradual and is getting stronger and better.

She does not get to decide who my friends are or where I go anymore. The way that the rest of this has played out today has followed that path. If she goes away, she goes away. As my earlier posts indicate, I know the risks and have accepted the reality that my romantic relationship with her is over. If there is a new romantic relationship someday is unknown, but for now, it's over.

But, since this is the "saving" board, and it is about trying to save a relationship, I have tried to keep the tenor in tune with that. Yes, I'd like to salvage what I can with her because we do run in the same social circle for the most part. Keeping the stress, strife, and misery at a minimum is the goal.

I'm also very much aware of the addictiveness of these relationships. My T and I had a long talk about that today. I know that it doesn't come across on the boards because I generally don't write about the day to day stuff in my r/s, but I'm making great strides in breaking the addictive bonds.

[Meili]

I haven't been around here much lately because there has been a lot going on in my life. I'm having to move house. I'm looking at starting a business. I still have to work during the week, and weekends have been filled with testing business ideas and locations.

The point of my writing that was to explain the lack of update about my situation.

My x and I are still talking. We go from her thinking I'm nice and sweet and making her feel good and happy, to her being stressed and upset simply because of a word in a sentence.

Our interactions seem vastly different from the way that they were in the past. My best guess is that I have opened her deepest wounds and she isn't sure what to do or how to respond to me as a result.

She still acts and shows that she wants there to be something between us, but is too filled with fear and distrust to allow it to happen.

As I suspected though, the stronger and more independent I become, the more attractive she finds me; at least it feels that way.

Yesterday I was having an insecure moment and asked her if she was only being nice to me these days because she tries to be a nice person. She told me that wasn't the only reason, and that when things are going well between us that she has good feelings.

Today, she told me that she cannot imagine having a partner for life anymore because of my betrayal.

A few minutes after that, she told me that she didn't sleep last night, was exhausted and it was affecting her responses.

I'm really not sure what to make of any of this anymore. My path is still clear to me though, I need to keep working on me and allowing things to come as they will where she's concerned.

[ArleighBurke]

Today, she told me that she cannot imagine having a partner for life anymore because of my betrayal

I am sure that, as a BPD, she has a FEELING that she can't trust anyone, and after searching for a reason she stumbled accross this one. For a BPD - any reason is a good reason. This may be 20% the reason, but I suspect the REAL reason is she can't trust people because she has BPD!

Keep up your progress. It sounds like you are really taking control of your life!

[Meili]

Thanks AB!

I completely agree with you and she even told me that she feels that she can't trust anyone anymore.

In fact, last night she told me that she's testing me. Well, to be more specific, she told me that she's "observing my actions" for now and wants to see my devotion to her.

This is extremely frustrating because I cannot see how she doesn't see the devotion at this point. But, that's applying "non logic" to the situation.

My fear is that the more that I move on with my life without her, the less devoted she'll see me. I can no longer count on our future business plans together, so I have to start figuring out what to do when my boss retires in a few years. I have some great opportunities, but if I take any of them it would mean relocating. I will do what I need to do to take care of myself and what is best for me first of course. It just puts me in the no-win situations that we are all too familiar with.

[patientandclear]

Going back to the original source of your break: she decided she can't trust you because you acted with principle toward another person in your life (your ex who is now a friend, whom she wanted you to cut out). Right? From what you've written about that previously, you did what is morally and emotionally right for you and would do it again (good for you for your position and clarity).

So you WILL do things that, because her trust meter is miscalibrated, fail her test. Like starting a business without her. Moving. Maintaining the other friendship.

So--why the suspense? You WILL fail the test (anyone would who is not completely colonized by the r/ship). Do you challenge her notion of testing? It buys in to a very unhelpful concept that her mistrust arises from anything you're doing, or that a million positive experiences will prevent the 1,000,001st experience that makes her doubt from causing a rift.

[Meili]

For clarification purposes... .I terminated the r/s and the friendship with the other ex has been terminated as well because of the rift that it caused. In fact, all ties to that ex have been severed. I even have very limited contact with mutual friends these days. Part of that was because of the actions of each of the exes. All of it was because I needed to protect myself.

I agree, I'll always fail her tests.

I don't think that I play into her tests. My response to her "observing" was that the tactic will never work. She keeps me fairly distant, so all that she sees is filtered and only part of a picture. There's no way for her to see who I have become and the continued growth. There's no way for her to trust me, based on what she's actually said to me, because she doesn't know what I'm doing at any given time because of the distance between us.

So, she wants to be sure that I won't seek comfort in another woman (even as a friend), but won't provide any comfort herself. She can't see any devotion because she doesn't know where I'm at, what I'm doing, or who I'm with or talking to because we are rarely in physical proximity to one another these days.

She also doesn't seem to understand that my level of commitment and devotion to her is directly proportionate to her level of commitment and devotion to me. When she tells me that we can't even be friends, there is no reason for me to be devoted to her any longer; yet she gets upset that I am not. When she is close to and spends time with me, my focus is solely on her. When she is running around with other men, I'm free to run around with other woman. All of this eludes her however. I guess that she expects me to sit at home, alone, to prove to her that I love her.

[Meili]

Don't you just love it when you try to do the "right thing" and it makes things worse?

OK, before I explain that statement, I need to tell you what's been going on.

My x and I have still been talking. It has been a lot of the same ol' same ol'. I'd not say the right thing and hear how her male friends treat her better than I do and that they care more, etc. Any time that anything would happen that she didn't like, she'd bring up the ow and the fact that I betrayed my x and ruined our relationship by talking to her.

Last Friday, my x told me that she was done worrying about the ow and the damage has already been done so it didn't matter what I did in regards to her.

On Sunday, I went on a motorcycle ride with 200+ other bikes and 300+ other people. A friend of mine borrowed the motorcycle that the ow had purchased as a gift for me (and that I gave back to her). The ow went on the run too.

The x asked if the ow went, I confirmed. Life has been very painful for me since. She that she was going to let me move in with her, but I destroyed that chance by going on the ride.

I'm about to not have a place to live due to several weird events that started with my landlord getting divorced and created a cascade effect. I negotiated with my landlord and I can stay in my house if I give him two months' rent. Excellent! Except that I don't have the money because the landlord was supposed to refund a month's rent and I used the other month's rent to get my bills caught up.

This morning, the ow contacts me to tell me how I used her, and how she was only nice to me while I was with my x and after in an attempt to have a romantic r/s with me.

So, I tell my x about the housing problem this morning. As part of it, I state that I cannot and will not ask the ow for money before my x can even suggest it. Of course, she wants to know why I can't. I explain the phone call from this morning. I really meant it be a positive, but it wasn't.

[patientandclear]

I thought you weren't considering living with her as friends? Now you seem to be wanting her to let you?

Re the OW: her stance toward you sounds the same as yours toward your BPDex--nice but not on a "just friends" basis. Does that put a different light on what you heard from her (the OW) this morning?

[Meili]

I thought you weren't considering living with her as friends? Now you seem to be wanting her to let you?

It didn't come across from her as "just friends." She told me that she was starting to trust me again. What I'll never know is the reality behind any of that. Was she actually starting to trust me again? Was she really considering my moving back in? Was it just a business thing for her or more? These are questions that I just have to accept that I'll never know the answers to.

Re the OW: her stance toward you sounds the same as yours toward your BPDex--nice but not on a "just friends" basis. Does that put a different light on what you heard from her (the OW) this morning?

I'm not clear what you are asking here.

[Meili]

I had a very interesting conversation yesterday with a long-term friend of mine who has been diagnosed BPD.

She was telling me about her current relationship and the problems that they are having. It was a very interesting and enlightening discussing in that much of what she said to me was almost verbatim what my x has been telling me over the last few days. All of it is also things that have been discussed on these boards, but for whatever reason hearing it from someone actually experiencing it in real time made it all very real for me.

As has been discussed around here many times, they need consistency in order to feel safe. When they don't see things as consistent, it triggers internal alarms that something is wrong. This leads to the dysregulation that we all know so well.

What comes across to us as anger is really just fear.

Those discussions that feel eternal to us are really just their attempts to make sure that we actually understand what they are feeling so that we don't do whatever it is that we did to trigger the fear in the future. When they feel safe in the knowledge that we understand and won't create the trigger in the future, then they feel that a resolution has been reached.

It isn't necessarily about the actual event that was the genesis of the downward spiral, it is about emotions that are triggered. The nons tend to focus on the event rather than the emotions that follow. When we understand the emotions, then the above-mentioned resolution is possible.

All of the things correspond with learning to listen with empathy, not invalidate, and making them feel safe. When we learn to do the, we learn to stop the bleeding and then we can move forward.

[ArleighBurke]

As has been discussed around here many times, they need consistency in order to feel safe.

And yet when things are stable, they become more and more edgy "waiting" for something bad to happen... .

The nons tend to focus on the event rather than the emotions that follow.

Very true. This is also a classic male trait (we are problem solvers).

All of the things correspond with learning to listen with empathy, not invalidate, and making them feel safe. When we learn to do the, we learn to stop the bleeding and then we can move forward.

Is that straight off this website? Very true.

[Meili]

The nons tend to focus on the event rather than the emotions that follow.

Very true. This is also a classic male trait (we are problem solvers).

Something else that I learned from talking to my friend has to do with not taking things the pwBPD says personally.

As we know, feelings = fact. We'll never be able to change what they consider fact. My friend was explaining that she can say that the grass is purple and believe that the grass is purple, but when faced with undeniable evidence that the grass is green, she'll apologize and admit her mistake but still believe that the grass is purple. Once it's a fact to her, it's a fact forever more no matter what.

Because of that, debating the color of the grass is pointless. Her SO just has to accept that she sees that the grass is purple. He cannot contradict her because that would be telling her that what she believes is wrong and therefore she's wrong/bad. He can only work with the fact that she sees the grass as purple. He doesn't have to internalize it and believe it himself though. It doesn't have to change a thing about him.

So, to put it in emotional terms, my x can tell me I am a horrible person. I have to agree with her feeling that way, but I don't have to believe it to be true. I do not have to validate the fact that I'm horrible, but I have to validate that she sees me that way. In short, I don't have to actually believe that I'm horrible, but I have to believe that it is a fact to her.

FTR, my x has never actually told me that I'm a horrible person.

[icky]

. As we know, feelings = fact. We'll never be able to change what they consider fact. My friend was explaining that she can say that the grass is purple and believe that the grass is purple, but when faced with undeniable evidence that the grass is green, she'll apologize and admit her mistake but still believe that the grass is purple. Once it's a fact to her, it's a fact forever more no matter what. Because of that, debating the color of the grass is pointless. Her SO just has to accept that she sees that the grass is purple. He cannot contradict her because that would be telling her that what she believes is wrong and therefore she's wrong/bad. He can only work with the fact that she sees the grass as purple. He doesn't have to internalize it and believe it himself though. It doesn't have to change a thing about him.

. Hi Meili, i've been reading your posts with interest. i think you're doing great work and you analyse and describe the dynamics very well. thank you for wording the grass-is-purple stuff so well. this is one of the things that has upset me MASSIVELY in the past 6 months with my partner. after the idealization phase, all sorts of BPD behaviour started, including the "my feelings = FACTS" thing, which really freaked me out. i was having the-grass-is-purple stuff yelled at me in his tantrums with the ultimatum that i either "hear" and "validate" that the grass IS purple, or i'm the worst person on the face of the planet and the worst partner imaginable (ie. being expected to validate the FACT - validating the feeling was "not enough". not realising at the time that it was BPD stuff, those situations shook me to the core. i wondered if he was just plain insane. i'm only now starting to understand the BPD dynamic of feelings = FACTS. thank you for wording it so clearly and so well. keep up the good work and may there be lots more positive progress - however that ends up manifesting in your life (expected or unexpected progress).

[Meili]

Thank you hmmmmm!

A lot of this stuff is really hard to grasp when you first stumble upon it. Even knowing the traits and how they manifest themselves, we all still get tripped up now and then.

We all get shaken to our cores also. I did today in fact. There are ways that lessen the impact and make communication easier, but sometimes the tools fail. Sometimes there is no "right" way to handle things. Sometimes we find ourselves trapped. That's where boundaries come into play.

I've spent the past few days being told that I'm a liar, manipulator, and that my words can't be trusted. My x told me that I was talking about something that I was not talking about.

It's kinda funny because this morning, she told me during a telephone conversation that she asks that I put so much in writing these days so that she can go back and verify what I said because I'm all of the things that she described.

This afternoon, she was telling me that I said something that I never said. Because so much is in writing, I was able to easily produce the email that contradicted what she was saying that I said. I did my best to Support, Empathize, and tell the Truth (S.E.T.) when I showed her the email. I was still lying. I said something different.

I apologized for the confusion and asked her to show me what she was talking about. It was at that point that she told me that I said it while on the phone with her last night. Now, I'm not sure who she was on the phone with, but it wasn't me, because that's when I had sent the email that I showed her. She acknowledged that she was wrong about the phone and that it must have been in a different email, but she couldn't be bothered to find it.

At this point, I thought it best to not push the issue and just asked that we agree that there was some confusion and go from what I meant to say. She agreed. She wasn't happy, but she agreed.

While we are communicating far more often, the tone of the communication seems to be getting worse. She spends most of her time raging about things that happened a year ago and the devastating effect that they had on her. I do my best to comfort her and try to help her feel safe. It's really hard when she decides that the grass is purple though.

[icky]

yeah, crikey. i must say that before i realised it was BPD stuff, it really freaked me out tho. i agree it's still really challenging, even knowing it's BPD stuff, but at least it's not a 100% confusing, insane mess that you can't make any sense of no matter how you try, with massively hurtful stuff going on the whole time. as you know, i'm just starting on the "ohhh it's BPD" journey. so for me the jury is still out on how viable/ how worthwhile attempting to have a meaninful, loving, caring relationship with someone with mild/medium/massive BPD is. i'm somewhere between "it's a mirage, it can't work, stop staring at a mirage" and "well, if we both make a really big constructive effort and i set lots of healthy boundaries mayyyyyybe it could work". i realise the answer to "is it viable/ worthwhile" is different for everyone. time will tell what my stance ends up being. i'm sorry you've had such a challenging day. when you mentioned you had lots of stuff in writing, and hence misunderstandings could be clarified more easily i thought "wow, great!". but had to giggle at the irony that, nope, even having it all in writing doesn't make a difference... sigh. i don't know how many endless loops of that kind of stuff i've been through these past months. it felt like my brain was turning into mush because of it. but as you said, looking at it on a logic/ factual level is not "helpful". these BPD discussions are about the emotional level and "facts" and "logic" don't really play a role here. it's kind of like arguing with a 3 year old about santa claus, i guess. you can do it - but is it a useful thing (for you or the 3 year old) to be doing?

[Kelli Cornett]

@Meili... .the problems with allowing feelings to equal facts and the consistency thing, is certainly known to anyone who's been in a LTR with a pwBPD.

If feelings always equal facts, then if the pwBPD has inappropriate r/s (flirtations, emotional affairs, physical affairs) but doesn't feel like that's what they're actually doing (or chooses not to remember that they happened, as it might have occurred during dysregulation), then that just becomes part of your life with your BPD partner. That's super unhealthy for the non.

Also, if things are consistent, pwBPD tend to get bored with the lack of drama and chaos, and will create something or simply go outside of the r/s to find some excitement and a way to exercise their lack of impulse control. A major part of their disorder is a lack of object consistency, so things/people can never really be consistent in their lives. And even if you make it your life's mission to keep it consistent on your end, they will find a way to sabotage the consistency. The biggest devaluation/discard that I ever got from my BPDw, was after a month of amazing happiness, consistency, and validation on my part. As if it was just too good and too consistent for her BPD mindset to handle. She had to sabotage it, or else she would have been left to consider the fact that her internal unhappiness was really her own and not caused by our r/s.

[Meili]

Unfortunately, you can never expect a pwBPD to make a constructive effort to save the relationship.

Yes, it's a lot like arguing with a 3 year old. Like a 3 year old, the pwBPD probably won't be able to acknowledge their own role in the problems, and won't be acknowledge the hurt that they have done or are doing. The non is usually blamed. That's part of the not taking it personal.

It gets really tough when the non needs soothing, comforting, and validation. That cannot be expected from a pwBPD. Mine told me today that she can't give it to me. She "predicted" that I am going to call the ow and even told me to do so because she "knows" that's what I'm going to do, and that even if I don't do it she's going to assume that I did. No-win situations are another hallmark of what the non deals with.

I think that all of us who are trying to save a relationship with a pwBPD ask whether or not it's worth it. Like you said, that's an individual choice that we all must make.

And, yes, I being able to go back and look at what was actually "said" because it was in writing causing a problem was kinda ironic.

It's really tough ALWAYS being wrong... .

[Meili]

@northface

Be careful painting all pwBPD with the same brush. Everyone is different and everyone who has BPD has their own, unique set of struggles. It's a spectrum disorder, so not everyone falls along the same place on the spectrum. Also, there are different levels of BPD, so what one person may not be able to control, another might.

[Kelli Cornett]

@northface

Be careful painting all pwBPD with the same brush. Everyone is different and everyone who has BPD has their own, unique set of struggles. It's a spectrum disorder, so not everyone falls along the same place on the spectrum. Also, there are different levels of BPD, so what one person may not be able to control, another might.

I totally get that, but just in my limited time on this board I can't tell you how many people I've talked with and threads I've read that talk about the same issues.

Certainly not all pwBPD have the same exact issues, but it seems like there are so many behaviors that they have in common.

And don't forget, the length of r/s has a lot to do with how many of the behaviors come up with a BPD partner. Just because you haven't seen some behaviors doesn't mean it's not part of their experience with the disorder, it just means you haven't been in the r/s long enough. Prior to this past year I could have never dreamed that my BPDw could dysregulate as dramatically and drastically as she did, but as a T who specializes in BPD told me awhile back, unless the pwBPD is receiving treatment their dysregulations will keep getting worse within a r/s and every recycle of the r/s will become more damaging and painful to the non.

[Kelli Cornett]

In re-reading the earlier posts in this thread, it appears that you have been going through the same things I posted about despite your efforts.
Inappropriate flirtations in front of you (been there, and it sux), possible emotional/physical r/s with others, and having her finding ways to sabotage things when they look like they're improving due to your efforts.

This appears to more demonstrate the similarity of experiences when in a r/s with a pwBPD, rather than the differences. I think sometimes as non's we overemphasize the perceived differences so we can justify our attempts to keep the r/s going or go back for a recycle, and don't want to believe the countless cases of these r/s just not being salvageable in any kind of way that's healthy for the non.

Trust me when I say I completely understand how hard it is to break out of the cycle.
Still there myself.

[Meili]

Oh, there's no argument that many of the stories are the same, or at least very similar. But, not every pwBPD will cheat, become violent, etc. Yes, some do, but not all. In fact, it only takes five of the nine criteria to diagnose someone as a pwBPD. If the other four are not present, then it is just as unlikely that the pwBPD will do those things as it is any other person as far as I know. I've never seen any study that supports the idea that a pwBPD is more likely to develop the traits that are not present than any other person.

It should be noted that I'm in no way looking at any of this through rose-colored glasses. I've radically accepted my situation and all that comes with it.

[Lilyroze]

If feelings always equal facts, then if the pwBPD has inappropriate r/s (flirtations, emotional affairs, physical affairs) but doesn't feel like that's what they're actually doing (or chooses not to remember that they happened, as it might have occurred during dysregulation), then that just becomes part of your life with your BPD partner. That's super unhealthy for the non.

Also, if things are consistent, pwBPD tend to get bored with the lack of drama and chaos, and will create something or simply go outside of the r/s to find some excitement and a way to exercise their lack of impulse control. A major part of their disorder is a lack of object consistency, so things/people can never really be consistent in their lives. And even if you make it your life's mission to keep it consistent on your end, they will find a way to sabotage the consistency.

This is one of the wisest things I have read in a long time on here. We train people how to treat us, and BPD train people to take abuse. Simple. I have put up with it, so I am not in any way judging anyone here. But we all determine our worth, self worth, and need to as nons retrain our minds, hearts and souls to not take abuse, affairs, lack of respect, or lower our boundaries or needs for the mentally ill BPD. There is no political correct way to say it  when they choose the route of abuse.

Illness and BPD I understand. Quite frankly though some is lack of respect for themselves, and the non, and nothing more. Acting 3, being selfish comes along with the territory! Learning to validate, communicate with them better, avoid triggers is very important and will go a long way. All aside it is different then emotional abuse. Learning healthy ways to handle things with them is great, at same time learning just because they have BPD, desyregulate and some are selfish and lack of integrity or morals at times doesn't mean you as the non have to accept it with excuses. To make excuses constantly for their behavior is not healthy for yourself, well being or soul. It just is not. If you have kids you are setting them up as well to make excuses for the BPD in unhealthy ways. 

Being painted black is being called a liar, manipulator, and when they go to other people for "friendships", affairs, or "friendships disguised as affairs emotional or otherwise", threatening to have an affair with someone you know same thing. It is abuse, blackmail and painted black. No matter how much the non wants to work it out, bring it back to what it was, opium induced hope, trying, giving it, therapy. If a BPD wants to have an affair, or deregulates, a scene or chaos, they will and do, as some can't help and some just use as an excuse. The excuses with some can range from you made them mad, you deserved, they want fun, they "broke" up and you are no longer a couple so they can do that. Until they lay the guilt and want a caretaker again, someone to buy them things or take care of then you are back in for a ride.

 You as the non, have to get healthy, have boundaries, and standards of what is best for you (we are all different what is acceptable to one, maybe different then others, but DO not let a non who is unhealthy tell you it is OK, because the BPD is ill). Set your own boundaries, get therapy and insist on the ill one getting therapy, meds or whatever is needed if they want to stay and work with you. If they don't want that doesn't mean when it hits the bar, affair, crazy route that you have to take it in the name of love, or put a spin on it, or make it better then it is. Abuse is abuse even if the person has BPD. It is not a pass to continue affairs, abuse and the whole gamut.

It is a chance to heal with them, validate, understand them, work and love them. But, not a pass to continue on the path of abuse and self destruction.

I notice some tend to minimize and say I was not painted black. OK, to your face but well... .and quite frankly if you are called liar continually, and worse involving other people then you are in a way. The saying don't pee on me and tell me it is raining comes to mind with some BPD people and the situations involved.

Just because some have affairs or worse and think of you as a possession does not mean love. No matter what board you are on learn self worth, take to heart your values, believe in yourself and find self love. Learn the difference between possesive ill people and people with love there is a difference. No not all BPD are like this, but well take off the rose colored glasses ( believe me I had them and listen when they tell you what they are saying and face it)

 Either they want to work with you or not, once more and more affairs, fights, other people, alcohol and other means get involved it is heading to an ugly end, or living a life of abuse. Face it, heal it, and learn from it. Again as a well known person in the field said, if the person is on and off, there is usually never a chance to go back to what you wanted. It was an illusion, a mask, or what they were pretending or were at that moment in time. I think the quote I put in another post said paraphrasing it is opium induced hope to keep trying and thinking if I put up with this, understand more, listen harder, buy this, give that, appreciate more, see the good it will get better. Good luck... .Yes there are BPD that try, are wonderful and great if yours is wonderful. If they are in a spiral, not trying,raging, drinking, can't control some of their behaviors, ( budgets, spending, drinking, or worse involving sex, drugs etc... .then no they are not getting better and will need intervention). Whether you stay or go facing the situation with reality will help with the path you need to go with or without them. The journey is about you as well and not just accepting abuse, worrying or caretaking someone. You are important as well.

Remember as caretakers, as I was, it is not your responsibility to make it all better, be the only one trying, try to fix it, or take on all the guilt or worse abuse. If you are a codependent ( I was not) but do understand that role, no it is not all on you. They need to try and get help, or you need to look within see your value, your needs, your healthy, your boundaries and decide if and when you want better for yourself. Begin today, life is beautiful you don't need to take abuse and worse to feel lo

[Meili]

I completely agree LR!

Finding your own self-worth is critical if the non is going to maintain any sort of relationship with a pwBPD. If you don't, then you will continue to be abused.

Once the non has found his/her self-worth, the non can start to establish and maintain healthy boundaries and stop the continued abuse.

To get to that point, the non stop looking at the relationship with any sense of delusion and see things as they really are. Having a disorder is not a "get out of jail free card." These are adults that we are talking about and they must be held accountable for their actions. Even a three year old gets held accountable for whatever he/she does.

Once the non stops taking it personally and stops believing the accusations and criticisms of the pwBPD, the non can then start to rebuild his/her self-worth and not allow the verbal and emotional abuse to impact and control his/her life.

All of this starts with self-care. As a non, we all need to look at ourselves without the filters also. We must see who we truly are and why we have allowed ourselves to be treated as we have. Until we accept our own reality, we cannot begin to do meaningful work on saving or improving the relationship.

But, you're also correct, if the pwBPD is not also willing to work to improve the relationship it's doomed. The non can start the process of rebuilding by his/herself, but eventually, the pwBPD is going to have to work also.

[icky]

. Oh, there's no argument that many of the stories are the same, or at least very similar. But, not every pwBPD will cheat, become violent, etc. Yes, some do, but not all. In fact, it only takes five of the nine criteria to diagnose someone as a pwBPD. If the other four are not present, then it is just as unlikely that the pwBPD will do those things as it is any other person as far as I know. I've never seen any study that supports the idea that a pwBPD is more likely to develop the traits that are not present than any other person. It should be noted that I'm in no way looking at any of this through rose-colored glasses. I've radically accepted my situation and all that comes with it.

. yup, i agree with this very much. . i think there's one exception to this:. if someone has gone through major abuse from a BPD partner, they need to exaggerate the bad traits of the abusive person, in their mind, to help them finally walk away from the abuse and to be strong in knowing that they didn't deserve to be abused. so i think as a stage in recovering from abuse, sometimes you need to focus on how horrible the abuser is, and that means you end up exaggerating. while you're recovering from abuse, you're not very objective/ neutral/ fair in your descriptions. . so i think if some people here are still recovering from abuse, it's kinda valid for them to talk about the BPD abuser that way ("all BPD ppl are horrible". even if those comments are not very useful comments for a general, calm, informed, insightful, healing discussion about BPD. . so i think both points of view are valid/ useful, at different stages of the recovery process of having been exposed to abusive BPD behaviour.

[Lilyroze]

.

Once the non has found his/her self-worth, the non can start to establish and maintain healthy boundaries and stop the continued abuse.

.

Once the non stops taking it personally and stops believing the accusations and criticisms of the pwBPD, the non can then start to rebuild his/her self-worth and not allow the verbal and emotional abuse to impact and control his/her life.

All of this starts with self-care. As a non, we all need to look at ourselves without the filters also. We must see who we truly are and why we have allowed ourselves to be treated as we have. Until we accept our own reality, we cannot begin to do meaningful work on saving or improving the relationship.

But, you're also correct, if the pwBPD is not also willing to work to improve the relationship it's doomed. The non can start the process of rebuilding by his/herself, but eventually, the pwBPD is going to have to work also.

Thank you Dear Meili, ( wise sweet one). That was the key for me and many I know. Always appreciated your thoughts and help. Spiritually your soul is beautiful friend.

[Meili]

I'm not saying that the bad traits actually expressed by a pwBPD should ever be downplayed or excused in any way.

I would even argue that even those of us who work to save and improve our relationships with pwBPD need to fully recognize and understand (even exaggerate sometimes) the actions of their pwBPD in their own minds. If you try to ignore the traits and the actions that result from them, you will also ignore healthy boundaries that must be in place to sustain a relationship that won't drain the non to the point of being an empty shell of a person.

[icky]

: ). sorry, i may have muddled things further, while trying to help make them less muddled . i guess what i meant was that if northface is focussing heavily on the negative traits of BPD, that might be an important part of his healing journey right now, to recover from abusive BPD behaviour. (didn't mean to suggest you were downplaying/ excusing anything, meili)

[Meili]

Gotcha. And, yes, it may be necessary for northface, and everyone else for that matter, to do that. I think that it is helpful to look at what the pwBPD did; but, it's far more helpful to look at what the non did and the non's role in all of it. The pwBPD isn't solely to blame for the relationship and the state of it. It took both parties to get it where it's at.

Looking at, and even exaggerating, the traits and behaviors of a pwBPD is essential for the non to understand why the non accepted the abuse and behaviors. That is why looking at it is important in the healing process. Otherwise, it really doesn't do much good to dwell on what the pwBPD did.

That being said, we all dwell on it in the beginning, that's natural. But, if we allow ourselves to get stuck there, that's not good.

[icky]

yup : ) totally agree. as a phase it's very healthy. getting stuck in it would be totally counter-productive

[Kelli Cornett]

Until we accept our own reality, we cannot begin to do meaningful work on saving or improving the relationship.

Certainly the non can help minimize some of the craziness in a BPD r/s by not escalating/reacting to the behaviors of their pwBPD and practicing validation and such, but "saving" a BPD r/s without having the pwBPD in T learning specific behavior therapies to deal with their actions (and hopefully working through their core issue(s) is usually just a delusion of the non that the next recycle is going to 'take'.
I'd love to put this to the test and start a thread with a poll, and see how many non's have managed to 'save' their r/s once it's broken down due to the behaviors, actions, and dysregulation of their pwBPD. Untreated, BPD dysregulation is cyclical and the cycles tend to become more rapid, drastic, and hurtful as the r/s goes on, so 'saving' a BPD r/s (without the pwBPD in treatment) generally means getting on board for another cycle of the same.

It's like saying you're going to 'save' your r/s with your raging alcoholic partner, even though the partner won't stop drinking. They may drink a little less and you'll convince yourself that it's 'under control' and you're practicing techniques that minimize the impact of their drinking on your life , but their destructive cycle with alcohol will always return and you'll be in the middle of the craziness.

[Meili]

Maybe I need to clarify something?

The non is the one who can start to save the relationship. It only takes one to end the cycle. Since the pwBPD is not going to end the cycle, the non must be the one to do it.

Once the cycle of abuse and conflict has been ended, then it may be possible to help the pwBPD to learn to do things differently; much like you'd teach a child.

Will this fix the relationship and make it into a healthy, safe, and stable one? Probably not. That will take the pwBPD getting into and doing therapy.

We are not talking about fixing the relationship here though, we are talking about saving it so that an attempt to improve the relationship can be made. If you can't save it, you certainly can't improve it.

[Kelli Cornett]

I guess my question is, if the pwBPD isn't in T dealing specifically with their BPD issues, what r/s are you really saving?

If there are children involved I totally understand factoring that into the equation, but if it's just two people cycling through a typical BPD r/s with all the destructive behaviors that pwBPD will always bring with them to their intimate r/s, other than the non holding on for dear life, what are you really saving?

[icky]

speaking of having a balanced, calm, useful take on BPD... i have started a thread called "Good qualities of a BPD person? Separating the truly good from the fake good" in the "deciding/ conflicted relationship" part of the board. i'd love your input, meili. i think it's quite a tricky question. and possibly an important one, considering how addictive the good (or the supposedly good) traits of a BPD person can be for us nons

[Meili]

I guess my question is, if the pwBPD isn't in T dealing specifically with their BPD issues, what r/s are you really saving?

If there are children involved I totally understand factoring that into the equation, but if it's just two people cycling through a typical BPD r/s with all the destructive behaviors that pwBPD will always bring with them to their intimate r/s, other than the non holding on for dear life, what are you really saving?

That is up to each of us to decide. It isn't up to you, me, or anyone else to decide what is right for another human being.

As stated earlier, the destructive behaviors that you are talking about can be made non-existent or reduced with maintaining healthy boundaries. If I don't want my x calling me a liar, I establish the boundary that I won't talk to her when she does that.

By not personalizing the accusation, it is no longer abusive because it has zero effect on me.

Once the effect has been removed and the boundary is in place, the pwBPD loses that power over the non for that particular thing. Once the power has been removed, the pwBPD will reduce or cease the behavior. Much like when a three year old learns that throwing a tantrum is ineffective; they stop doing it.

You can read the SUCCESS STORIES posted by people who were not only able to save their relationship, but they also improved them.

[icky]

northface. i think everyone here is aware of just how difficult a relationship with a BPD person is, or how (almost?) impossible. the question is whether it's helpful to describe BPD ppl as a kind of monster. or alcoholics as a kind of monster. we humans are ALL flawed. ALLLLLLL of us. not just the BPD's and the alcoholics. it's soo easy for us nons to take the moral high ground when we're talking about BPD's. when we stand next to a BPD person, it makes us look soo sane and healthy and mature and balanced and pefect, in comparison. : ). but stand us next to someone else, and that's a great reminder that we're just as flawed as everyone else. so unless you need to see BPD ppl as kind of monstrous right now, for your healing, the question is whether viewing BPD more neutrally and gently might be more useful.

[Lilyroze]

hmmmm Personally I see no reason to be so involved or take personally the way northface sees it. That is reality. No offense but 2 years in does not make a BPD relationship expert nor a long term BPD relationship. In fact most BPD relationships end at 18 to 24 months, or ironically the 16 year mark. Big difference but there is a reason for both. Many have dealt, been kind, worked with, saved, shared, cared for a BPD for many years. Some going on 20... . We have experience and are not cold, hurtful, nor not trying people. To insinuate anyone who had emotional or physical abuse at the hand of a BPD is exaggerating has NOT faced reality or what some have. That in itself is programming, or abuse to insinuate someone with abuse is exaggerating their hurt, pain or truth.  Just saying. I think you need to practice a little more kindness and less judging of other nons. Build up your BPD and all others you want don't tear down other nons please.

I have helped my BPD, and also was on committees for Domestic violence, mental ill abuse advisor and court advisor for CASA. I have seen and heard it all. But to minimize someone else's abuse all to deny the reality is wrong. Good luck on your relationship and all it entails. Knowledge is power, you are seeking it, may you use it and be blessed on your path.

[Meili]

To insinuate anyone who had emotional or physical abuse at the hand of a BPD is exaggerating has NOT faced reality or what some have. That in itself is programming, or abuse to insinuate someone with abuse is exaggerating their hurt, pain or truth.  

I don't think that is exactly what was said, and I certainly don't believe that is what was meant.

I think that what was meant, and I know it is what I meant, is that from time to time, people will exaggerate the BPD traits to help them cope and move on.

There are some who convince themselves that anyone with BPD exhibits all 9 traits so that they can help heal themselves. They think things like "Well, it would just be a matter of time before my pwBPD cheated on me!" When, the pwBPD may have never cheated ever.

[Kelli Cornett]

hmmmm Personally I see no reason to be so involved or take personally the way northface sees it. That is reality. No offense but 2 years in does not make a BPD relationship expert nor a long term BPD relationship. In fact most BPD relationships end at 18 to 24 months, or ironically the 16 year mark. Big difference but there is a reason for both. Many have dealt, been kind, worked with, saved, shared, cared for a BPD for many years. Some going on 20... . We have experience and are not cold, hurtful, nor not trying people. To insinuate anyone who had emotional or physical abuse at the hand of a BPD is exaggerating has NOT faced reality or what some have. That in itself is programming, or abuse to insinuate someone with abuse is exaggerating their hurt, pain or truth.  Just saying. I think you need to practice a little more kindness and less judging of other nons. Build up your BPD and all others you want don't tear down other nons please.

I have helped my BPD, and also was on committees for Domestic violence, mental ill abuse advisor and court advisor for CASA. I have seen and heard it all. But to minimize someone else's abuse all to deny the reality is wrong. Good luck on your relationship and all it entails. Knowledge is power, you are seeking it, may you use it and be blessed on your path.

Thank you very much. Really appreciate the kind words in your last several posts here.
Two decades into my r/s with my BPDw, so I've been through the cycles more times than I care to recall.

Without specific T that teaches behavior therapy, the cycles will continue. If success is equated with being in a r/s that due to the herculean efforts of the non is not quite as unhealthy as it was before, I guess that's success for some. But if there are no children involved, why would someone seek to rekindle an unhealthy r/s (which is what this thread really deals with, from the beginning)?

Don't misunderstand my posts as telling anyone what to do with their lives or r/s, but trying to get clarity on why. The understanding why part of the equation, really helped me start moving forward in my own journey and helped me see things and actions for what they really were. Being non's/codependents/white knights frequently entails a certain amount of delusion about our own current situation, and is very much helped along with conditioning from our BPD partner.

[Lilyroze]

Hugs Northface,

Feel free to pm for support, and friendship. I totally understand and from just two posts could tell you were a long term person to this, tried, therapy was probably involved and you knew the drill. You are very compassionate, caring, and can tell someone who has tried, but are in reality and facts. Ignorance of abuse, implied, other otherwise is never acceptable in my book. I will always stand with someone who is trying to show concern, and the reality they faced vs rosy this is how I want it. Been there in the rosy window as well, so no judging implied or otherwise. Boy those rosy glasses served me well as an optimist all these years and will still always be a glass half full person, but same time no denial is not just a river either.

Keep the faith all, believe in yourself, self love, and keep to the path of happiness. Try your best each day and bring love into your life. At same time try and see the good in all, and your partner, but be willing to walk away from any and all abuse until therapy or a change from abuser is instituted. Your health will greatly benefit. Be love and see love, see abuse and face it. the two are not on the same path, once you acknowledge that you will be out of the FOG, truly.

Should also clarify yes there are some BPD that are wonderful, some never cheat and never hurt, or abuse. Wonderful that is out of the way. But truly some break up and fight to cheat, move on, move in and use the excuse we are broke up. No that is not right if a pattern and a way to hurt, control, exert power, cheat in the name of you made me mad that day. Seen and heard it all. Again some will deny, defend, be upset or take the BPD side as they had a right to do that to me. You are right, you set your own boundaries, wishes and standards, but in some peoples world it is not right to not talk things out, work things out and just plain abuse in many emotional or physical ways. Just the fact of diseases today I chose not to work with some that would run to others till the sun comes down and not work with me, that being in medical filed means health problem. Again we all have our own boundaries, but sometimes boundaries or not abuse is abuse folks, end of story.

[Meili]

I think that we all agree with this:

Without specific T that teaches behavior therapy, the cycles will continue.

I don't think that anyone is saying this though:

If success is equated with being in a r/s that due to the herculean efforts of the non is not quite as unhealthy as it was before,

What we are saying on this board is that we want to save the relationship so that it can be improved. As noted above, that takes work from both parties.

Don't misunderstand my posts as telling anyone what to do with their lives or r/s, but trying to get clarity on why. The understanding why part of the equation, really helped me start moving forward in my own journey and helped me see things and actions for what they really were. Being non's/codependents/white knights frequently entails a certain amount of delusion about our own current situation, and is very much helped along with conditioning from our BPD partner.

The "why" is the first thing that we try to get everyone to look at. Why do you want this relationship? The answer is as unique to the person as the person is the rest of the world.

[icky]

sorry, didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. i grew up with a very violent mother and i know that in my 20's during the therapy-and-recovery phase, it was vital for me to see her as a monster, so that i could finally break free from her toxic hold on me. now, at 40, i realise she was a damaged and flawed person and i certainly remember how violent she was, but i no longer have the emotional need to see her as a "monster" in order to protect myself and to heal and to run to somewhere safer.

[Kelli Cornett]

Hugs Northface,

Feel free to pm for support, and friendship. I totally understand and from just two posts could tell you were a long term person to this, tried, therapy was probably involved and you knew the drill. You are very compassionate, caring, and can tell someone who has tried, but are in reality and facts. Ignorance of abuse, implied, other otherwise is never acceptable in my book. I will always stand with someone who is trying to show concern, and the reality they faced vs rosy this is how I want it. Been there in the rosy window as well, so no judging implied or otherwise. Boy those rosy glasses served me well as an optimist all these years and will still always be a glass half full person, but same time no denial is not just a river either.

Keep the faith all, believe in yourself, self love, and keep to the path of happiness. Try your best each day and bring love into your life. At same time try and see the good in all, and your partner, but be willing to walk away from any and all abuse until therapy or a change from abuser is instituted. Your health will greatly benefit. Be love and see love, see abuse and face it. the two are not on the same path, once you acknowledge that you will be out of the FOG, truly.

Will do, Lilyroze.
Your assessment of me and my situation is spot on, as is your description of these types of r/s.
That's the kind of insight that's made my own personal growth and journey possible, and started me down a better road for me and my children.

Thank you.

[fromheeltoheal]

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