Chores and Housework

[fisher101]

You’re going to deal with drama whether or not you want to. Best to turn it into a comedy. Sometimes I’m the only one laughing (silently of course, just to myself).

Maybe rather than thinking of her as a “bad person” for not having empathy, think of her as an emotional toddler. Little kids are big time narcissists, only thinking of themselves, but that doesn’t make them bad people, just uneducated in the ways of seeing the world through others’ eyes.

While I know you're right, I have a hard time with it. When I see "narcissist" I think "bad". When I think "lack of empathy" I think "sociopath" Of course it doesn't help that I'm pretty judgemental from a moral standpoint. I'll admit that.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

It certainly is annoying and unpleasant, I’ll give you that. But she must have some redeeming qualities or you’d have flown the coop. What are they?

[fisher101]

It certainly is annoying and unpleasant, I’ll give you that. But she must have some redeeming qualities or you’d have flown the coop. What are they?

Well she can be kind...at times. She is spontaneous, she doesn't mind just jumping up and doing fun things. We have similar tastes in food, entertainment, housing, views on the world, politics, etc. She tolerates my personality quirks.

I can tolerate a lot of her other issues but this on, and maybe on other just might be line in the sand. This house is disgusting right now because I'm stuck doing it all alone while working a lot of hours in a high-stress job. She want to get some animals (we have land) but I fight it because she will take care of them for a week and the start refusing to get up early and take care of them. Excuse will be she is "tired." As if she is the only one.

[formflier]

Tire of being a butler.

Good thread...perhaps I'll try to summarize.

1.  Shift from trying to get them to do (x), to determining how much (x) you are comfortable doing (without resentment)...and then do that..and nothing more.

2.  Develop a thick hide and also a bit of a witty tongue.  So when they say something silly a bit of a cutting comment comes back at them...yet with a "twinkle in it".  I have to say that the first thought came to mind (which may or may not be good advice)...when she was complaining that you did not bring the lunch you made FOR HER to the car (and perhaps you failed to properly use a napkin on her face because she was eating and excoriating you at the same time...   )

FF suggests: "Is there anything else I can do to attempt to earn her highness's favor?"

then she says "you are just being an azzhole"

you say "Yes I am."  (and move on with your day...let her highness stew in her own pot)

I'll leave it to you guys to debate if this would actually be a good thing to say...I will admit I've said similar things with varying degrees of "success".

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

1.  Shift from trying to get them to do (x), to determining how much (x) you are comfortable doing (without resentment)...and then do that..and nothing more.

Exactly 

FF suggests: "Is there anything else I can do to attempt to earn her highness's favor?"

then she says "you are just being an azzhole"

you say "Yes I am."  (and move on with your day...let her highness stew in her own pot)

Previously I defended myself from accusations that I’m being an azzhole. Now I embrace it. “Yep. And…?” 

[Notwendy]

I think that underlying the refusal to do something is some kind of emotional baggage. I think pwBPD have a skewed sense of "fairness" and I think it stems from "victim perspective". It also may fill some kind of emotional need to have things done for them. Regardless, doing too much for others leads to resentment. I agree with the posters here- do what needs to be done for basic health reasons- sanitation, nutrition, and child care- even if these are unfair - these are basic needs that must be met. Children can't do this on their own and they would be impacted without them.

Stop doing things she can do for herself. Stop making her lunch! If she doesn't eat- or just eats junk- that's on her. She's an adult. She's responsible for making her own lunch.

If you need to cook for you and any children, then cook. It's not a big deal to cook for one more person. But you are correct- you can cook what you want to cook if you are doing it.

If she wants a garden, let her do it.

The cat is also not able to take care of itself- so that's a job that needs to be done  but take note for next time she wants a pet.

[formflier]

I think that underlying the refusal to do something is some kind of emotional baggage. I think pwBPD have a skewed sense of "fairness" and I think it stems from "victim perspective".  

Yep...this affects housework in our home..bigtime.  My wife has vivid (and nasty) memories from childhood about having to clean at the whim of her Mom (who is "a piece of work"...some of you may get the reference..hehe).

She would never know if it would last an hour...or 5.  What was "clean" a week ago...well the standard would change an they would be berated for doing it that way...and for not "knowing" they new way Mom wanted it.   Uggg...

So there is cleaning with FFw when she is "baseline"...and that's fine.

However..when she is triggered she is thinking about all that childhood horror and she begins actually acting like her Mom.  It's no longer about getting the house clean...rather it's about fixing that black hole inside of her.

In a moment of clarity..she has admitted that she cleans to feel better..."sometimes".

Best,

FF

[fisher101]

Good thread...perhaps I'll try to summarize.

1.  Shift from trying to get them to do (x), to determining how much (x) you are comfortable doing (without resentment)...and then do that..and nothing more.

2.  Develop a thick hide and also a bit of a witty tongue.  So when they say something silly a bit of a cutting comment comes back at them...yet with a "twinkle in it".  I have to say that the first thought came to mind (which may or may not be good advice)...when she was complaining that you did not bring the lunch you made FOR HER to the car (and perhaps you failed to properly use a napkin on her face because she was eating and excoriating you at the same time...   )

FF suggests: "Is there anything else I can do to attempt to earn her highness's favor?"

then she says "you are just being an azzhole"

you say "Yes I am."  (and move on with your day...let her highness stew in her own pot)

I'll leave it to you guys to debate if this would actually be a good thing to say...I will admit I've said similar things with varying degrees of "success".

Best,

FF

So what do to when the place looks like trash, I'm exhausted, and she is still just there sitting on the couch playing on her phone? I very close to shutting off the phone changing the wifi password . I'm also unwilling to pay someone to come in and do these things. I'm also unwilling to live in squalor.

[fisher101]

Yep...this affects housework in our home..bigtime.  My wife has vivid (and nasty) memories from childhood about having to clean at the whim of her Mom (who is "a piece of work"...some of you may get the reference..hehe).

She would never know if it would last an hour...or 5.  What was "clean" a week ago...well the standard would change an they would be berated for doing it that way...and for not "knowing" they new way Mom wanted it.   Uggg...

So there is cleaning with FFw when she is "baseline"...and that's fine.

However..when she is triggered she is thinking about all that childhood horror and she begins actually acting like her Mom.  It's no longer about getting the house clean...rather it's about fixing that black hole inside of her.

In a moment of clarity..she has admitted that she cleans to feel better..."sometimes".

Best,

FF

In my case it is an almost 24x7x365 think. Half the time she doesn't even know that I'm up and cleaning. She can really only focus on one thing at a time, usually her phone. I've actually gotten up and left the room for an hour and came back with a prepared meal and she had no idea I was cooking. I'll leave the room for 30 minutes with dirty dishes and she'll have no idea how the dishes were cleaned. She is really bad with time. Im just the opposite I know what everyone in the house is doing and their location at all times. I can usually tell you the time within 5 minutes without a watch/phone/clock.

[formflier]

Do you enjoy the housework? 

Do you "mind" the housework?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Who pays for her phone service?

[Notwendy]

One question I have is - why do you continue to clean and cook for her too while she plays on her phone?

While you have different standards of cleanliness, nothing will change until she meets her standard, whatever that is. Yours is higher and so, she doesn't see that because it's done for her.

I had avoided writing too much on this topic, but it's a flash point for me as well, but possibly for different reasons. One doesn't have to have BPD to have emotional baggage and pre-set expectations formed by one's family of origin. Our parents are our first role models. For many of us - at a certain age, that role model was formed on the relationships of the 1950's to 1970's and even as more women entered the workforce, it's been known that the bulk of housework and child care often was mostly theirs.

Few people really love housework. We do it because we want the results- a clean house, nutritious meals, clean clothes.

FF mentioned his wife's baggage. I don't have BPD but know I have some feelings about housework. In my BPD mother's era, most women were housewives and didn't work outside the home. So while she identified as a housewife, she didn't do any of that either. My father, did pay for household help. There was a hidden agenda for that. If someone like a housekeeper was in the house, she was less likely to be raging and cause harm, so I suspect this gave him some peace of mind.

Her refusal to do housework also has an emotional basis. She has a great need to have people do things for her, even things she can do for herself and she manipulates people to do things for her to meet this need. There's also a narcissistic side to her. She thinks housework is beneath her. She needs people to do it for her so she can feel "better than them" and once I was old enough, I got recruited into the "lesser than her" role.

I wanted a different relationship than my parents and while I wanted the more traditional role of being a mother, I also had a career and hoped for more of a partnership. But do we marry that kind of emotional match? Hardly - we choose spouses with whom we play out some childhood issues or patterns. Enter my own H who was raised by the mother who might have walked off the set of a 1950's TV show. That looked "normal" to me from my own view point but then some things were odd. She would not go anywhere, even out for lunch with a friend sometime,  so she could fix all the meals every day for her H.  He didn't touch any kind of housework, or fix himself a meal. Learned later that she's co-dependent and yet, my H's family was far more stable than mine was. So while I expected some sort of partnership, and cognitively my H knew that- emotionally his example was set. "Real men don't do housework",

So while I expected to take on most of it, and didn't ever expect 50-50- the occasions where I asked if he'd give me a hand were met with such an exaggerated outburst, which scared me ( due to my own background) I became afraid to ask. Since what his co-dependent mother did was his example of love, asking him to help was experienced as full on rejection and he reacted as such. He has far more sense and awareness than my mother does, he would not ever meet full BPD criteria but some of these responses were in the arena of traits, and co-dependency was mine and we fit the typical patterns together. Walking on eggshells and being co-dependent was the "normal" for me growing up.

So, since I knew I didn't want to act like my mother, I defaulted to acting like his mother. I was unhappy but he had no inkling. He'd sit there, literally watching me scurry around the house doing things. It's not in his mindset to offer to help. On weekends, he might leave all day to pursue his hobbies while I stayed home alone with the kids. It's not in his mindset to offer to help, because he's not ever had any male figure role model that. As far as he was concerned, his mother was happy in her role. I don't think she was but she tried to keep the peace.

My H finally agreed to MC ( this was not the only issue that led to me wanting that) and I thought the MC would call him out, but she was wiser than that- she got me support for co-dependency, told me to stop cooking so much for him. I admitted that I resented cooking dinner, having him come in to eat, say thanks and walk off and leave me with the dishes. It wasn't that I wasn't willing to do these things. I enjoyed cooking and I am good at it. It was lonely. I wanted the company, the teamwork, the partnership of cooking a meal, eating and cleaning up together. I felt more like a servant than a partner. She pointed out the resentment I felt. She told me I had to learn to regulate my own feelings when he was angry at me. ( I was not in physical danger). To be fair, it wasn't uneven completely- H was the main wage earner. I also have a sense of fairness and expected to do the major part of the housework and child care. I wanted to do it. I liked to cook at one point. One can do the same thing and have it be co-dependent or not. I was mainly doing things out of fear and that made it co-dependency. This was the arena that emotional baggage played out on both our parts.

I still cook. He has no interest in learning how and since I value nutritious and healthy food, if I want that, I have to be responsible for that. However, sometimes he fends for himself but will heat up frozen dinners or fry something easy or just get take out. I let him figure it out. But if he does cook something he leaves the dirty pan in the sink. He just won't wash it. While it's just a pan, and takes me two minutes to wash it, he has no idea just how much that symbolizes to me. BPD mother does not do dishes. Since she delegated me to "servant"- leaving his dirty pan for me to wash feels like that. On his part, I just don't think he thinks much about it. Ironically I married someone who mostly won't do dishes either. Why do we do that? That's what I wanted to know.

This didn't get any better though until I dealt with my own emotional baggage and we all choose someone with whom we match and because of this, marriage gives us the opportunity to work on our own baggage if we are willing to look at it.

My part was - why was I willing to basically be a servant with benefits for my H? I was very unhappy yet so afraid of him being angry at me I kept on doing it. He had no incentive to change. I had to take responsibility for that.

I was also so afraid of him thinking I was like my mother, but asking him to fend for himself for dinner once in a while because I had something like a work meeting or kids had a soccer game or something like that was is not being like my mother- except in the way he accused me of being when he felt neglected. I had to undo that thinking and realize I am contributing. I also learned people will treat us poorly if we allow it and that's what happened- if I was willing to be a doormat he
seemed Ok with treating me like one.


Some of us wouldn't do that. I could never do it. If I saw my spouse scrambling to clean the house and cook dinner, there's no way I could sit there. My conscience would not allow it. I would feel badly about myself if I didn't help. But not everyone thinks that way.

I think sometimes we do all this stuff with an expectation that they will somehow notice and step in. Like if only you did the housework and cooked dinner- your wife might reciprocate. This might work for you if someone did that, but the sense of reciprocation is skewed somehow and may not be there in the first place. What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

You need to do something different to get different results. If there are no kids involved then you can each keep separate living spaces. She can sleep in sheets that haven't been changed, have dirty towels and clothes and basically have a pig stye if she wants. She won't change things until she's had enough. You need to let her get to that. If you cook food, make it for you. You eat your meal, clean your stuff up. Let her deal with it. She may get angry, call you names but she's an adult.

It's no secret that you are resentful, really resentful. I don't blame you, but doing more of what you are doing will bring more resentment. That's not caring or loving. What keeps you willing to take all this on while she plays on her phone? That is what you need to get to. One risk you take by stepping back is that the place becomes a total pig stye, which may herald the end of your relationship. but on the other hand she might hit her limit and start to clean it up. You don't know until you let that happen. If you keep doing all these things for her, she has no incentive to do anything different.

What are you getting out of this? You said you were judgmental and this issue has you being critical of her. Sometimes being co-dependent makes us feel as if we are the better person because we do so much, but are we really? Is our enabling helping them or keeping them in their bad habits? And what she's doing works for her. She gets to play on her phone while you clean up. Why should she change?

[fisher101]

Who pays for her phone service?

Well we both work and all the money is shared. But since I earn a good bit more than her, I'll prorate it and say that I pay for 75% of the phone service for both of us.

[fisher101]

Do you enjoy the housework? 

Do you "mind" the housework?

Best,

FF

I hate it, especially over the last few months? Why?

[Notwendy]

I hate it, especially over the last few months? Why?

Resentment. Whenever we act out of co-dependency rather than authentic willingness, we feel resentment.

In fact, paying attention to our feeling of resentment is the clue to if we are acting out of co-dependency.

Co-dependency is when we do something in order to manage the other person's emotions or behavior. It's fear based. We are actually managing our fear of their reaction to us when we do something.

The same act can be done out of willingness or co-dependency. What makes it different is the reason for doing it. When it's co-dependency, we build resentment.

Probably most of us don't love housework but are willing to do it because we want cleanliness and order. Cleaning the house is not necessarily being co-dependent.

Doing all of the housework, while expecting the other person to pitch in, but being afraid to ask them because they will probably act out is not willingness to do it all. It's fear of asking them. This is the same action ( cleaning the house) but it's co-dependency and the result is resentment on your part.


You doing the housework might feel like you are the better person, but it's not a gift to your spouse to build resentment.

For her to feel the need to do something, you will need to stop doing it.

[thankful person]

It is certainly very frustrating. My wife is also extremely lazy and I used to do all the housework when she was out at work. Even when we had one baby I would jump to it the second they both left the house. I was doing it out of choice because mess and dirt doesn’t bother her. Her mother is obsessed with cleaning, like you ask if she wants to see her grandchildren and she says, “nope I have to dust and vacuum that day”. Her father never does anything. My mother is the opposite of hers and didn’t do much but got professionals in as she was out working much of the time. A few years ago I took on some part time domestic cleaning work, partly because I wanted to learn how to clean efficiently. But the other half of my problem has been different from yours… my wife didn’t want me cleaning when we’re supposed to be having precious “together time”. Now we have two babies so since covid, neither of us leaves the house much (I also teach online). So I wasn’t “allowed” to get up and go to do housework, because she wanted me with her. At some point I started to just go do it. Especially if she was starting to rant and shout about anything. Ironically this felt like a triumph because I didn’t used to be “allowed”. But the interesting thing is that since I have started doing this, my wife has actually started contributing more with doing a bit of cleaning, all the laundry she is now keeping on top of (for now), and a bit more washing up and cooking. The relationship is hardly even and I also mostly look after the dogs she has staying with us (her “business”). But I’ll take it because things have become a bit more fair. I don’t have much advice, but only that we can never control them. All we can do is experiment with different actions to see what their reaction is. Since I’ve tried different things there has been much progress here.

[fisher101]

I hate it, especially over the last few months? Why?

Resentment. Whenever we act out of co-dependency rather than authentic willingness, we feel resentment.

In fact, paying attention to our feeling of resentment is the clue to if we are acting out of co-dependency.

Co-dependency is when we do something in order to manage the other person's emotions or behavior. It's fear based. We are actually managing our fear of their reaction to us when we do something.

The same act can be done out of willingness or co-dependency. What makes it different is the reason for doing it. When it's co-dependency, we build resentment.

Probably most of us don't love housework but are willing to do it because we want cleanliness and order. Cleaning the house is not necessarily being co-dependent.

Doing all of the housework, while expecting the other person to pitch in, but being afraid to ask them because they will probably act out is not willingness to do it all. It's fear of asking them. This is the same action ( cleaning the house) but it's co-dependency and the result is resentment on your part.


You doing the housework might feel like you are the better person, but it's not a gift to your spouse to build resentment.

For her to feel the need to do something, you will need to stop doing it.

Her standard reply is "well if you didn't live here it wouldn't get dirty and I wouldn't have to clean." She'd probably be living amongst cockroaches before she'd feel the need.

[fisher101]

One question I have is - why do you continue to clean and cook for her too while she plays on her phone?

While you have different standards of cleanliness, nothing will change until she meets her standard, whatever that is. Yours is higher and so, she doesn't see that because it's done for her.

I had avoided writing too much on this topic, but it's a flash point for me as well, but possibly for different reasons. One doesn't have to have BPD to have emotional baggage and pre-set expectations formed by one's family of origin. Our parents are our first role models. For many of us - at a certain age, that role model was formed on the relationships of the 1950's to 1970's and even as more women entered the workforce, it's been known that the bulk of housework and child care often was mostly theirs.

Few people really love housework. We do it because we want the results- a clean house, nutritious meals, clean clothes.

FF mentioned his wife's baggage. I don't have BPD but know I have some feelings about housework. In my BPD mother's era, most women were housewives and didn't work outside the home. So while she identified as a housewife, she didn't do any of that either. My father, did pay for household help. There was a hidden agenda for that. If someone like a housekeeper was in the house, she was less likely to be raging and cause harm, so I suspect this gave him some peace of mind.

Her refusal to do housework also has an emotional basis. She has a great need to have people do things for her, even things she can do for herself and she manipulates people to do things for her to meet this need. There's also a narcissistic side to her. She thinks housework is beneath her. She needs people to do it for her so she can feel "better than them" and once I was old enough, I got recruited into the "lesser than her" role.

I wanted a different relationship than my parents and while I wanted the more traditional role of being a mother, I also had a career and hoped for more of a partnership. But do we marry that kind of emotional match? Hardly - we choose spouses with whom we play out some childhood issues or patterns. Enter my own H who was raised by the mother who might have walked off the set of a 1950's TV show. That looked "normal" to me from my own view point but then some things were odd. She would not go anywhere, even out for lunch with a friend sometime,  so she could fix all the meals every day for her H.  He didn't touch any kind of housework, or fix himself a meal. Learned later that she's co-dependent and yet, my H's family was far more stable than mine was. So while I expected some sort of partnership, and cognitively my H knew that- emotionally his example was set. "Real men don't do housework",

So while I expected to take on most of it, and didn't ever expect 50-50- the occasions where I asked if he'd give me a hand were met with such an exaggerated outburst, which scared me ( due to my own background) I became afraid to ask. Since what his co-dependent mother did was his example of love, asking him to help was experienced as full on rejection and he reacted as such. He has far more sense and awareness than my mother does, he would not ever meet full BPD criteria but some of these responses were in the arena of traits, and co-dependency was mine and we fit the typical patterns together. Walking on eggshells and being co-dependent was the "normal" for me growing up.

So, since I knew I didn't want to act like my mother, I defaulted to acting like his mother. I was unhappy but he had no inkling. He'd sit there, literally watching me scurry around the house doing things. It's not in his mindset to offer to help. On weekends, he might leave all day to pursue his hobbies while I stayed home alone with the kids. It's not in his mindset to offer to help, because he's not ever had any male figure role model that. As far as he was concerned, his mother was happy in her role. I don't think she was but she tried to keep the peace.

My H finally agreed to MC ( this was not the only issue that led to me wanting that) and I thought the MC would call him out, but she was wiser than that- she got me support for co-dependency, told me to stop cooking so much for him. I admitted that I resented cooking dinner, having him come in to eat, say thanks and walk off and leave me with the dishes. It wasn't that I wasn't willing to do these things. I enjoyed cooking and I am good at it. It was lonely. I wanted the company, the teamwork, the partnership of cooking a meal, eating and cleaning up together. I felt more like a servant than a partner. She pointed out the resentment I felt. She told me I had to learn to regulate my own feelings when he was angry at me. ( I was not in physical danger). To be fair, it wasn't uneven completely- H was the main wage earner. I also have a sense of fairness and expected to do the major part of the housework and child care. I wanted to do it. I liked to cook at one point. One can do the same thing and have it be co-dependent or not. I was mainly doing things out of fear and that made it co-dependency. This was the arena that emotional baggage played out on both our parts.

I still cook. He has no interest in learning how and since I value nutritious and healthy food, if I want that, I have to be responsible for that. However, sometimes he fends for himself but will heat up frozen dinners or fry something easy or just get take out. I let him figure it out. But if he does cook something he leaves the dirty pan in the sink. He just won't wash it. While it's just a pan, and takes me two minutes to wash it, he has no idea just how much that symbolizes to me. BPD mother does not do dishes. Since she delegated me to "servant"- leaving his dirty pan for me to wash feels like that. On his part, I just don't think he thinks much about it. Ironically I married someone who mostly won't do dishes either. Why do we do that? That's what I wanted to know.

This didn't get any better though until I dealt with my own emotional baggage and we all choose someone with whom we match and because of this, marriage gives us the opportunity to work on our own baggage if we are willing to look at it.

My part was - why was I willing to basically be a servant with benefits for my H? I was very unhappy yet so afraid of him being angry at me I kept on doing it. He had no incentive to change. I had to take responsibility for that.

I was also so afraid of him thinking I was like my mother, but asking him to fend for himself for dinner once in a while because I had something like a work meeting or kids had a soccer game or something like that was is not being like my mother- except in the way he accused me of being when he felt neglected. I had to undo that thinking and realize I am contributing. I also learned people will treat us poorly if we allow it and that's what happened- if I was willing to be a doormat he
seemed Ok with treating me like one.


Some of us wouldn't do that. I could never do it. If I saw my spouse scrambling to clean the house and cook dinner, there's no way I could sit there. My conscience would not allow it. I would feel badly about myself if I didn't help. But not everyone thinks that way.

I think sometimes we do all this stuff with an expectation that they will somehow notice and step in. Like if only you did the housework and cooked dinner- your wife might reciprocate. This might work for you if someone did that, but the sense of reciprocation is skewed somehow and may not be there in the first place. What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

You need to do something different to get different results. If there are no kids involved then you can each keep separate living spaces. She can sleep in sheets that haven't been changed, have dirty towels and clothes and basically have a pig stye if she wants. She won't change things until she's had enough. You need to let her get to that. If you cook food, make it for you. You eat your meal, clean your stuff up. Let her deal with it. She may get angry, call you names but she's an adult.

It's no secret that you are resentful, really resentful. I don't blame you, but doing more of what you are doing will bring more resentment. That's not caring or loving. What keeps you willing to take all this on while she plays on her phone? That is what you need to get to. One risk you take by stepping back is that the place becomes a total pig stye, which may herald the end of your relationship. but on the other hand she might hit her limit and start to clean it up. You don't know until you let that happen. If you keep doing all these things for her, she has no incentive to do anything different.

What are you getting out of this? You said you were judgmental and this issue has you being critical of her. Sometimes being co-dependent makes us feel as if we are the better person because we do so much, but are we really? Is our enabling helping them or keeping them in their bad habits? And what she's doing works for her. She gets to play on her phone while you clean up. Why should she change?

A couple of things here. I think you're right about a lot of this. Separate living spacing might work...kinda, but when you share a kitchen it is a little hard.

It's not about gender roles or anything like that for me.

As far as who is the better person, I do consider myself to have the better moral framework. Goes to the reciprocity thing your mentioned. When questioned about it she always says "well its your choice to do all this stuff." She's right, but I'm still mad.


The situation has improved somewhat basically because I had a major blowup of my own. I more or less told her I was done doing everything, and that there wasn't much of a reason to have her around if I'm just there to be her caretaker. She offered excuses related to being tired, her emotional state...blah blah. I told her that more or less I do not care and don't want to know about it. Just do something. I even went as far as to say that many people would happily slide into the situation she takes for granted. Cruel I know, but I couldn't take it anymore. The whole take the high road thing just never works for me.

[fisher101]

You’re going to deal with drama whether or not you want to. Best to turn it into a comedy. Sometimes I’m the only one laughing (silently of course, just to myself).

Maybe rather than thinking of her as a “bad person” for not having empathy, think of her as an emotional toddler. Little kids are big time narcissists, only thinking of themselves, but that doesn’t make them bad people, just uneducated in the ways of seeing the world through others’ eyes.

It's easy for me to accept that from a kid, but not from an adult. I don't think but kids are "bad people" for it, but I do think that about adults who behave this way. I hate to say it, but I'm starting to develop the thought that pwBPD are...I don't want to say "bad" but "flawed" morally, but "bad" is the easier word to use I guess. That by default they have a flawed  or bad moral framework and have to learn to behave in a way not native to them in order to get along with other people.

[Notwendy]

Cruel I know, but I couldn't take it anymore. The whole take the high road thing just never works for me.

I think you can reframe this. Cruel would mean continuing to clean up after her. Speaking of kids, one would not recommend doing this continuously for a child. If we want our children to grow up to be responsible and considerate adults, we give them age appropriate tasks. A small child can pick up their toys with supervision. Older children can empty the dishwasher, tidy their rooms, put clothes away. It's cruel to teach them they don't have to contribute  in ways that they can.

Your wife is not a child. She can do chores. If this were a college apartment and she didn't contribute, her room mates would be angry at her and probably tell her what they think. Natural consequences. You did as well. I don't think it's cruel.

As to morality- I an not sure it's morality but I think their perception is skewed to victim. If they see themselves as victims, they don't feel responsible for their behavior and justify acting out in self defense. I think they have a skewed sense of fairness. If everything feels unfair to them then they don't feel a sense of reciprocity.

[fisher101]

Cruel I know, but I couldn't take it anymore. The whole take the high road thing just never works for me.

I think you can reframe this. Cruel would mean continuing to clean up after her. Speaking of kids, one would not recommend doing this continuously for a child. If we want our children to grow up to be responsible and considerate adults, we give them age appropriate tasks. A small child can pick up their toys with supervision. Older children can empty the dishwasher, tidy their rooms, put clothes away. It's cruel to teach them they don't have to contribute  in ways that they can.

Your wife is not a child. She can do chores. If this were a college apartment and she didn't contribute, her room mates would be angry at her and probably tell her what they think. Natural consequences. You did as well. I don't think it's cruel.

As to morality- I an not sure it's morality but I think their perception is skewed to victim. If they see themselves as victims, they don't feel responsible for their behavior and justify acting out in self defense. I think they have a skewed sense of fairness. If everything feels unfair to them then they don't feel a sense of reciprocity.

Thanks for the perspective. I agree on pretty much all of this.

This victim perspective is interesting. She does see herself as one. It is especially obvious when she talks about work. In addition to always being the victim she tends to think that everything is about her. If some action is taken by a coworker or some statement made, she interprets to be about only her and of course in a negative way. When a coworker recently quit. Some duties were assigned to my wife. She was feeling like the victim because, in her mind, they were only asking her to pick up the slack. I asked how she knew that other hadn't been asked too. She hadn't considered that she might not know everything. It was straight to "poor me" mode.

The morality thing. I guess I'm a firm believer is that we are what our behavior says we are. I don't expect other to share this view. I think, by my standards, it would take someone with this this condition an extraordianry amount of work for me to to give them the label "good person."

She also had a mother/family that did everything for her and her siblings. At the cusp of adulthood they could do nothing from themselves. I mean nothing.

I think she understands my stance on things now. That I'm no longer interested in the "why" but only in the result.

[Notwendy]

I actually think the same thing, our behavior reflects our morals and values.

I think if someone were seriously mentally ill, like schizophrenia- and were that removed from reality, it would not be a morality issue. Likewise if someone were severely intellectually disabled.

But pwBPD are considered to be legally competent and responsible for their actions.

[fisher101]

I actually think the same thing, our behavior reflects our morals and values.

I think if someone were seriously mentally ill, like schizophrenia- and were that removed from reality, it would not be a morality issue. Likewise if someone were severely intellectually disabled.

But pwBPD are considered to be legally competent and responsible for their actions.

Agreed. Again, thank you.

[formflier]

That I'm no longer interested in the "why" but only in the result.

I think you are getting on the right track here. 

I would want to ask you that you spend time on what the result "will look like".

So..."she loaded and ran the dishwasher".  That's a good result and good way to look at it.

So..."she didn't load the dishwasher properly"...this line of thinking is fraught...even though it is likely accurate.  (note...FF is control freak about "proper dishwasher procedures")

When this comes up (and it will) instead of explaining to her how to do it and why, at least in my case with teaching kids to clean up I try to engage them in "why did it turn out that way?"  "what could make this better?" and let them struggle through that...with little nudges from me.

My worse offender and hardest to train...I ended up just giving  him the nasty dish to put his food in (let's say he put a bowl in upside down...so the jets sprayed the outside of the dish, vice the inside where food residue was).

Of course...he didn't want to do that. 

FF "Interesting...why not"

kid  "it's nasty"

FF "weird...I thought you loaded and ran the dishwasher...what could have happened?"

etc etc

Yes it took a lot longer but my efforts at "let me show you how" that had worked with other kiddos...kinda fell flat.

Hope this helps...

Best,

FF

[fisher101]

I think you are getting on the right track here. 

I would want to ask you that you spend time on what the result "will look like".

So..."she loaded and ran the dishwasher".  That's a good result and good way to look at it.

So..."she didn't load the dishwasher properly"...this line of thinking is fraught...even though it is likely accurate.  (note...FF is control freak about "proper dishwasher procedures")

When this comes up (and it will) instead of explaining to her how to do it and why, at least in my case with teaching kids to clean up I try to engage them in "why did it turn out that way?"  "what could make this better?" and let them struggle through that...with little nudges from me.

My worse offender and hardest to train...I ended up just giving  him the nasty dish to put his food in (let's say he put a bowl in upside down...so the jets sprayed the outside of the dish, vice the inside where food residue was).

Of course...he didn't want to do that. 

FF "Interesting...why not"

kid  "it's nasty"

FF "weird...I thought you loaded and ran the dishwasher...what could have happened?"

etc etc

Yes it took a lot longer but my efforts at "let me show you how" that had worked with other kiddos...kinda fell flat.

Hope this helps...

Best,

FF

I don't really nitpick how things are done, unless there is some obvious safety or property damage concern. For example, don't rinse grease down the sink drain especially now that we have a septic system and not city sewer/garbage disposal. She just didn't know, and she didn't get mad when I told her. She is the type that will figure it out or come ask me, and of course many times I don't know any better how to do something anyway.

Since my big blow up she's been better, shockingly so. Sad that it had to come to that, but it worked. Sometimes I think you really have to explicitly point things out to her, she just misses a lot.

She knows how to do housework just fine. When she cleans something it looks better than when I do it, because I'm just doing it to get it done, she is cleaning it to clean (when she actually does it).

[PeteWitsend]

...
The difference? At work they have to, or else they get fired. Though if you read enough accounts here, you’ll find that many jump from job to job, just as they do with relationships.
...

I suspect their behavior at work is not much different, once they feel "comfortable" or feel secure (however delusional that sense of security might be).
 
Since 2018, BPDxw has had 4 different jobs.  She left Job #1 which was a good job for her, to move up.  Job #2... who knows?  was a small family-owned firm, so I suspect her schtick wouldn't last very far.  She left there in about a year and a half (I was surprised it lasted that long). 

I know she was fired from job #3 for incompetence; it was her "dream job."  I noticed from her company profile, it appeared she lied about her qualifications (unless she somehow managed to get fluent in French AND Spanish in 12 months).  You really have to wonder how she expected that would go...

Jobs #1 and #4 are with the same boss, but at two different companies.  My gut tells me he views her as "eye candy" and it seemed he had a history of hiring cute 20-somethings as underlings... but maybe there really was something else going on.  

I assume going forward she's going to have to straight up lie on her resume to cover gaps, or hide jobs where she left under a cloud or got fired.  

Of course, I'm always amazed by how sloppy HR people can be, and how little diligence they do when screening candidates... good for BPDers

[thankful person]

My worse offender and hardest to train...I ended up just giving  him the nasty dish to put his food in (let's say he put a bowl in upside down...so the jets sprayed the outside of the dish, vice the inside where food residue was).

Of course...he didn't want to do that. 

FF "Interesting...why not"

kid  "it's nasty"

FF "weird...I thought you loaded and ran the dishwasher...what could have happened?"

So thanks FF, I’m going to try this idea of giving my wife a dirty plate one day rather than cleaning up after her and saying nothing… It is such an ingrained habit I forgot it was caretaking… I think we don’t want to criticise when they actually try and do something helpful. But just like a child, they could do with learning how to do things well.

[johnsang]

I was literally coming to this site tonight to pose the very same scenario - my husband was "up" tonight because he told me he was going to make dinner for the kids as I worked late tonight (Just for context, I always work late on Tuesdays - this is not new information to the household - I have for the last 6 years) And then, 30 minutes before I left work he told me he had a meeting that changed and that he wouldn't be making dinner until he got home, 1 1/2 hours after the expected dinner time. 

This comment really struck me in this chain

My husband not infrequently wants to break the arrangement when "important things come up" and he expects me to help him out.

My response, via text, to my husband when he said he would be making dinner basically at the un-agreed upon time was "This is not helpful.  I will make dinner."  And HE is insulted because I'm being passive aggressive!  I'm not being flexible! I'm accusing him of not being dependable.  Blah blah. A one way heated monologue ensued for about 20 minutes about how this comment affected him - this is when he came home, kids fed, dogs fed, kitchen cleaned.

I just appreciated so much finding this exact scenario - this group is always so helpful for me! 

Is it a tendency for BPD to not be dependable?  I literally feel like I also do so much for taking care of the kids and the house - stuff that is important and not optional (for me) - and that he evades many of these responsibilities because he knows I will do them because they are high values for me (like feed the kids home cooked meals often).  It is somehow like he knows I'm obligated and care but he doesn't have the same value system but on some level it feels like a control thing - I can't quite articulate what I'm feeling but there is the gnawing feeling that he is somehow playing me. I can't explain it- I need to think about this more.  Anyone have thoughts about all of this?

[johnsang]

Oh, and one other comment - the thing with having a BPD partner is it feels, for me, so continually confusing - is this "normal" partnership behavior, or is this the BPD behavior.  I feel like I loose my grounding for what normal behavior looks and feels like.

It's exhausting and constant work.

[Cat Familiar]

I think evading responsibilities is common with pwBPD. Whether it’s through a feeling of victimhood or a narcissistic sense of entitlement, who knows?