It’s really bad at the kids’ mom’s house

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Last post was here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358217.0

Yesterday was our weeknight with SD18 (well, the parenting plan doesn’t apply any more, but she is sticking to the schedule, which is fine with us). H picked her up and drove her to our place. I was already home and saw the car park but they stayed out there for at least half an hour.

When they came in things seemed ok/normal. Earlier today I checked in with H by text and he said he was pretty emotional about talking with her. He and I finally got a chance to catch up over dinner just now.

Things are worse at Mom’s house than either of us thought. SD18 and Stepdad are no longer on good (or any) terms. It sounds like he has gotten really volatile — rages, yelling, throwing things, breaking things. She tries to deflect it away from SD16 and their younger brother (I think he’s 11, so B11). It’s a 2-3 month cycle. Mom delusionally believes the marriage can be saved but pretends nothing happened after Stepdad’s rages. Mom disappears sporadically and leaves Stepdad as the only adult in the house. Stepdad also drives erratically and rages when he drives. SD18 thinks they should/wants them to divorce. Apparently it started getting this bad during Covid — so, 4 years ago.

The pest issues are worse (there was a significant rat issue in the past — like chewing through bedroom doors). The laundry area is infested with fleas so none of the kids want to do laundry. Last time, SD18 took her laundry to Stepdad’s girlfriend’s place. Yesterday she brought all her laundry here. We suggested she and SD16 could bring a bunch over this weekend.

SD16 (by SD18’s account) is good at “disappearing” during the rages but SD18 worries about what will happen when she (SD18) goes on her 3 month trip in a week or so. B11 can’t/won’t talk about any of it. SD16 also is really sensitive to talking directly about this stuff. She has hinted to me recently that she really wants to get her drivers license so she can drive herself to school, because even though she is ready on time, it “isn’t a priority” to the adults there and she ends up being late which she hates.

SD18 can get riled up so H asked her to try not to antagonize Stepdad (in the sense of confronting/calling him out for raging) — not that it’s her job, but so that she doesn’t get hurt. He told her that at any time, she can bring SD16 and B11 to our place, and that she can call him at any moment and he will help. He reiterated to her that she can move in here (she could still go over there to check on B11).

She reflected on how she finally realized that it’s an abusive household, even though nothing is overt.

H is feeling guilty that he let this happen (yeah, I get that he didn’t do these things, but that is how he is feeling — like he failed to protect them). I’m feeling kind of in shock but also afraid that if I push too hard, it’ll push SD16 away. SD18 I think could handle a direct conversation but I don’t want SD16 to be so overwhelmed that she retreats to her room at Mom’s and feels like H and I were too pushy/didn’t understand.

Even before this, my therapist had suggested she could make a CPS call. I struggle to believe that CPS could help over there, but maybe telling SD18 “a third party was ready to call CPS about your situation” would help SD18 feel validated — to know that yeah, objectively, it is that bad? I have no idea.

I feel like I may need to step over the line of “hey, stay neutral, you’re the stepparent, just listen and be positive and don’t put adult stuff on the kids” and have a straightforward talk with SD18? Yeah, it shouldn’t be the case that an adult is going to an 18 year old saying “would you want me to call CPS, do you think it would help based on what you’ve experienced” but we were never given a normal situation. She shouldn’t be the one H and I are asking about “so how is it over there” but we haven’t had any written communication (text/email) with Mom in… months?

We plan to offer to drive SD16 to school even though it would add ~45 minutes to either of our commutes. SD16 was also really worried about if Mom could pay for her extracurricular that she loves, so we’ll offer to cover that. She is a tough one to connect to directly so we will just try the oblique approach of trying to take care of what she says she is worried about.

SD18 leaves in 9 days. I guess it’s now or never.

[kells76]

Last post was here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358217.0

Yesterday was our weeknight with SD18 (well, the parenting plan doesn’t apply any more, but she is sticking to the schedule, which is fine with us). H picked her up and drove her to our place. I was already home and saw the car park but they stayed out there for at least half an hour.

When they came in things seemed ok/normal. Earlier today I checked in with H by text and he said he was pretty emotional about talking with her. He and I finally got a chance to catch up over dinner just now.

Things are worse at Mom’s house than either of us thought. SD18 and Stepdad are no longer on good (or any) terms. It sounds like he has gotten really volatile — rages, yelling, throwing things, breaking things. She tries to deflect it away from SD16 and their younger brother (I think he’s 11, so B11). It’s a 2-3 month cycle. Mom delusionally believes the marriage can be saved but pretends nothing happened after Stepdad’s rages. Mom disappears sporadically and leaves Stepdad as the only adult in the house. Stepdad also drives erratically and rages when he drives. SD18 thinks they should/wants them to divorce. Apparently it started getting this bad during Covid — so, 4 years ago.

The pest issues are worse (there was a significant rat issue in the past — like chewing through bedroom doors). The laundry area is infested with fleas so none of the kids want to do laundry. Last time, SD18 took her laundry to Stepdad’s girlfriend’s place. Yesterday she brought all her laundry here. We suggested she and SD16 could bring a bunch over this weekend.

SD16 (by SD18’s account) is good at “disappearing” during the rages but SD18 worries about what will happen when she (SD18) goes on her 3 month trip in a week or so. B11 can’t/won’t talk about any of it. SD16 also is really sensitive to talking directly about this stuff. She has hinted to me recently that she really wants to get her drivers license so she can drive herself to school, because even though she is ready on time, it “isn’t a priority” to the adults there and she ends up being late which she hates.

SD18 can get riled up so H asked her to try not to antagonize Stepdad (in the sense of confronting/calling him out for raging) — not that it’s her job, but so that she doesn’t get hurt. He told her that at any time, she can bring SD16 and B11 to our place, and that she can call him at any moment and he will help. He reiterated to her that she can move in here (she could still go over there to check on B11).

She reflected on how she finally realized that it’s an abusive household, even though nothing is overt.

H is feeling guilty that he let this happen (yeah, I get that he didn’t do these things, but that is how he is feeling — like he failed to protect them). I’m feeling kind of in shock but also afraid that if I push too hard, it’ll push SD16 away. SD18 I think could handle a direct conversation but I don’t want SD16 to be so overwhelmed that she retreats to her room at Mom’s and feels like H and I were too pushy/didn’t understand.

Even before this, my therapist had suggested she could make a CPS call. I struggle to believe that CPS could help over there, but maybe telling SD18 “a third party was ready to call CPS about your situation” would help SD18 feel validated — to know that yeah, objectively, it is that bad? I have no idea.

I feel like I may need to step over the line of “hey, stay neutral, you’re the stepparent, just listen and be positive and don’t put adult stuff on the kids” and have a straightforward talk with SD18? Yeah, it shouldn’t be the case that an adult is going to an 18 year old saying “would you want me to call CPS, do you think it would help based on what you’ve experienced” but we were never given a normal situation. She shouldn’t be the one H and I are asking about “so how is it over there” but we haven’t had any written communication (text/email) with Mom in… months?

We plan to offer to drive SD16 to school even though it would add ~45 minutes to either of our commutes. SD16 was also really worried about if Mom could pay for her extracurricular that she loves, so we’ll offer to cover that. She is a tough one to connect to directly so we will just try the oblique approach of trying to take care of what she says she is worried about.

SD18 leaves in 9 days. I guess it’s now or never.

[ForeverDad]

SD16 has hinted to me recently that she really wants to get her drivers license so she can drive herself to school, because even though she is ready on time, it “isn’t a priority” to the adults there and she ends up being late which she hates.

When I already had custody and was seeking majority time,  S11 had about 20 or so tardies the year before and 19 of them were on mother's time.  That was listed in the court's decision as one of the factors granting me majority time during the school year.  Of course, son was not of an age to drive so he had no way to "vote with his feet or vehicle".

It's a tough loyalty quandary when there's a preteen that could be left behind, especially legally.

[Notwendy]

I get how you and your H feel and yet, whatever you do can make a difference. I was distanced from my BPD mother's FOO for some time. They thought she was a bit odd but didn't fully know what was going on. Out of the blue, they contacted me and apologized for not intervening when we were kids. They had figured some things out and put the pieces together and realized there were times when they thought something was off but didn't know.

They felt badly about it- but I assured them that there was no way they could have known the whole of it. Nobody could have known. Denial is also a part of BPD and my parents would have refuted any suggestion that there might be some issues. We had our basic needs met- we had clothes, food, - we'd not have come to the attention of teachers or other adults.

The best of this is that they are supportive to us now. Not materially- we are adults, we don't need that but they are supportive emotionally and want to be in contact with us and even as a middle age adult- this means a lot to me.

It's not possible to go back and change the past but I encourage you to do what you feel you want to do now. You and your H have been a support already. I don't think there's an age limit for the impact an adult can make in a child's life by being "there for them".

[livednlearned]

Oh geez. It's sad that SD18 has this meaningful trip planned and is feeling like she's a parent who is leaving her siblings to fend for themselves. What a challenging home life for them over there.

Ok, someone's gotta say it: your spidey senses were right.  

This makes the sticker thing with stepdad even weirder. "I'm covertly abusing the kids. Here, have a sticker."

I wouldn't feel great about collaborating with SD18 about how to proceed but I don't see how to avoid it ... she isn't going to feel ok leaving if things escalate for her siblings, and if BPD mom catches on that you and H are getting involved, wouldn't that lead to an escalation that negatively impacts the kids?

The silver lining is that SD18 opened up and felt she could talk things over with H. Big!

It seems like the tricky thing is to offer workable solutions to SD16 and B11without drawing any attention to the problems, at least if one goal is to support SD18's opportunity to travel in a week or so.

Any thoughts on where BPD mom goes when she disappears?

[kells76]

It's a tough loyalty quandary when there's a preteen that could be left behind, especially legally.

I think you're right that the loyalty bind/sense of obligation is a huge part of the dynamic. SD18 could maybe mentally handle living with us and then going over there to check on things. SD16 could not at this time, I don't think.

Maybe the core issue is -- H, myself, and SD18 are all kind of aligned (there is a huge problem, solutions/intervention are needed) but SD16 is so withdrawn that I fear she would still have the loyalty alignment with Mom's house. So instead of H, myself, SD18, and SD16 being able to team up to help B11, there's a sense that SD16 isn't in a place to handle bright light shining on the reality of how bad it is at Mom's. I don't like "splitting" the kids (SD18 is "capable, responsible, can handle problem solving with adults" and SD16 "needs help, is a child, isn't part of the problem solving team") and would rather approach it as a united team, where all 4 of us are "equal" (in a sense) participants in problem solving, not "3 of us and then we have to help SD16".

[kells76]

I get how you and your H feel and yet, whatever you do can make a difference. I was distanced from my BPD mother's FOO for some time. They thought she was a bit odd but didn't fully know what was going on. Out of the blue, they contacted me and apologized for not intervening when we were kids. They had figured some things out and put the pieces together and realized there were times when they thought something was off but didn't know.

How old were you when they called to apologize? How did it go for you?

They felt badly about it- but I assured them that there was no way they could have known the whole of it. Nobody could have known. Denial is also a part of BPD and my parents would have refuted any suggestion that there might be some issues. We had our basic needs met- we had clothes, food, - we'd not have come to the attention of teachers or other adults.

I feel like I should have known, because I know that denial is a part of the NPD-BPD family dynamic: "Not only is nothing wrong with us, we're a superior family admired by all".

[kells76]

Ok, someone's gotta say it: your spidey senses were right. 

This makes the sticker thing with stepdad even weirder. "I'm covertly abusing the kids. Here, have a sticker."

And after all the work I've been doing on "hey, just because I feel like this seemingly normal interaction has deeper meaning, doesn't mean it does". Well, it all did. Not excited to be right.

I wouldn't feel great about collaborating with SD18 about how to proceed but I don't see how to avoid it ... she isn't going to feel ok leaving if things escalate for her siblings, and if BPD mom catches on that you and H are getting involved, wouldn't that lead to an escalation that negatively impacts the kids?

I asked my T for a last minute appointment today to talk about that. My T was the one who first suggested she could call CPS for me -- that was before I learned all this. I hate that SD18 seems to be in this position of me and H, the adults, going to her and asking "do you want to do this, do you want that to happen, can you ask B11 to do XYZ" -- it reinforces the "you're the parent there" dynamic but then again as much as I wish it were different, it isn't. That is how it is over there. Mom has abdicated responsibility and Stepdad is erratic. There are no functional adults in that house besides SD18. Sure, H should be coparenting with Mom but that is nowhere near happening. It isn't an option.

The silver lining is that SD18 opened up and felt she could talk things over with H. Big!

There was a lot more she shared, not related to the home issues; apparently this friend she's going to visit is actually her girlfriend (soon to be boyfriend, I guess this SO wants to transition and SD18 plans to help with the hormone shots) and they've been together for a year. She did show H a lot of their texts and so she and H talked about communication in relationships. It seems like an OK/mostly healthy relationship based on what H saw, and it's good that SD18 trusted H enough to show him the texts. SD18 now wants to transition as well. Navigating what all of that means is kind of small potatoes at the moment compared to the bigger crisis at Mom's. But at some point we'll have to figure that out.

It seems like the tricky thing is to offer workable solutions to SD16 and B11without drawing any attention to the problems, at least if one goal is to support SD18's opportunity to travel in a week or so.

SD16 has mentioned wanting to take a long trip this summer to visit cousins. I'm not thrilled about that; it's Mom's sister's place, and Mom's sister is into unstable relationships, but I'm hopeful that at least there isn't erratic violence there? And I can empathize with wanting to escape to somewhere that -- relatively speaking -- is safer and more stable.

I don't know what to do about B11 besides work with SD18 (and I think maybe that's an area SD16 could feel comfortable problemsolving in?) to make sure he has a phone, has his grandma's number in the phone (she is local) and maybe has some school friends he can stay with.

If I were to suggest to SD18 that she encourage B11 to talk to school staff, then I feel like I would need to give her a heads up that they are mandatory reporters and that depending on what he discloses, they may be required to make a CPS report. I guess because I would not want her to think "oh, kells76 suggested that B11 do XYZ, and then all that means is that school staff will make sure he has lunches and clean clothes" and then they get blindsided with a CPS visit.

Any thoughts on where BPD mom goes when she disappears?

At SD16's school play, Mom had a +1. Also, when SD18 was finishing her "high school at community college" program, Mom was apparently also taking an art class at the community college? I've also heard rumors of Mom's "art studio" that is somewhere besides the house.

...

I am wondering about asking SD18 if she thinks Stepdad's girlfriend is aware of the volatility. I think my reason would be to get a better picture of the situation and possible outcomes, because if GF doesn't know about the volatility, then there could be escalation if Stepdad feels like "his secret is about to get revealed" to GF.

[Notwendy]

How old were you when they called to apologize? How did it go for you?

I feel like I should have known, because I know that denial is a part of the NPD-BPD family dynamic: "Not only is nothing wrong with us, we're a superior family admired by all".

How old- like recently- middle age. That is how well things were hidden when we were kids. As I said- it wasn't physical abuse or neglect. We had all we needed materially.

There were incidents but these relatives couldn't put them in context with the overall impression of our family. They knew BPD mother was odd but they thought she was eccentric.

But as they became more involved with her in her elder years- they began to see more of her behavior and the times where there were clues - where they could see we were afraid of her or she did something that didn't seem OK began to make sense.

So how could these family members make a difference even now?  I don't "need" parents in the way a child does but I think in general, not having the kind of affirmation from a parent leave a blank somehow. You have already filled the role of a motherly person for these children and that is huge. It may not seem like doing enough by your standards but if someone doesn't have that- it still makes a difference.

Whether or not this is deliberate gaslighting- growing up, it's confusing as we hear the explanations that our mothers tell us and often that is to blame us for our failure at not achieving the kind of relationship we wish we could have with a mother. So now, even decades later, they can provide some clarity and validation for the misperceptions.

[livednlearned]

I hate that SD18 seems to be in this position of me and H, the adults, going to her and asking "do you want to do this, do you want that to happen, can you ask B11 to do XYZ" -- it reinforces the "you're the parent there" dynamic but then again as much as I wish it were different, it isn't. That is how it is over there. Mom has abdicated responsibility and Stepdad is erratic. There are no functional adults in that house besides SD18. Sure, H should be coparenting with Mom but that is nowhere near happening. It isn't an option.

It's kinda but not quite similar to what happened when SD27 was casually using suicidal ideation with her friends, siblings, and H. My therapist at the time said she believed that with BPD, suicidal ideation can accidentally become deadly because when a little suicidal ideation gets positive results from caring people, then maybe more suicidal ideation will work even better. From the time I met SD27 (at 15, turning 16) her chronic suicidal ideation began to morph into something useful, if that makes sense. So, she was chronically suicidal and that was real, and she was also seeing how it could be wielded to handle her life in an unhealthy way, basically using it to make sure she was never alone. Mostly by telling people not to tell anyone that she felt suicidal, sort of to make sure no one talked about it with each other and potentially escalate it beyond what she actually wanted, which was to have people keep her from being alone 24/7.

The one person put in an impossible situation was SD29, who didn't know that H was in contact with SD27's psychiatrist and was fully functioning in parent mode, with some success. He got SD27's agreement that he could talk to her psychiatrist and therapist, and together they set up a safety plan that included him driving to stay with her until she stabilized.

Not that it's the same as your circumstance ... only that it's a crisis where there is a role for you, even if it's more of a flank role with some direct parts. It's the one time when I felt like it was ok to cross my own self-imposed line and talk to SD29 directly about what I knew and thought and frankly, cared about. I wanted her to know that H was involved, and SD27 was agreeing to his support, so if she felt ok about it, SD29 could be a graduate student in an admittedly bad relationship and focus on herself without worrying if her sister was going to kill herself when SD29 didn't respond to a text in .03 seconds.

In my case, H's tunnel vision and way of managing SD27 was decent, it was more that he wasn't focusing on how SD29 was impacted. That's where I got involved and I don't regret it.

I did make clear to myself and to SD29 what my intention was. It took a while to get really, really clear about that for myself, especially because SD27's suicidal ideation and behaviors were not (are not) neutral for me. In the end, my intention was to make sure someone was supporting SD29, even if it meant going against a family-secret type vibe where no one could discuss SD27 suicidal ideation with each other.

Maybe with SD18 your intention is: "You get to be a young adult and go do your thing. There is a plan and it's for us to put in place. Heads up that it might make things worse before they get better because that household needs sunlight and it will take some planning to figure out what that looks like in the short and long term."

Meaning, like you said -- mandatory reporters have already talked about calling CPS and the situation is getting attention (you don't have to say where since that's privileged info and maybe it's better for her to not know? Idk).

With SD29, my conversation was about how to handle SD27's suicidal ideation in a handful of different ways, with all lanes pointing back to me and H shouldering responsibility. She particularly appreciated the idea that some stuff needs sunshine on it and that means we have to communicate. One thing I have said often to SD29 is "It's important that SD27 is ok." I think that has been helpful for SD29 to hear because she loves her sister as challenging as she is. What I've also said is "It's important you're ok, too." That is what was driving my intention when I crossed my line about what to say and how much.

I might be projecting a lot of my situation onto you so that's probably in the mix here  

But being step parent to a blended family dynamic when one family member isn't safe and the rest are shouldering a lot of responsibility beyond their capacity -- that feels very familiar.

I don't know if there are any right solutions, only retrospect and trusting your instincts. I mean, we're wired for crisis so may as well recognize the silver lining that you are more likely to handle this kind of stuff better than most, at least people who aren't in a chronic state of vigilance waiting for that darn shoe to drop.

 


EDIT to add: I think if you are clear about your intention, if SD18 wants to, she'll open up more and you'll be great in that moment. One of the things I notice about being a step parent is that it's a bit easier to stay focused on the kid. Whereas with my kid, sometimes I slip out of that because our relationship is so hard-wired into me. As a stepparent, you can get the higher elevation view with a bit more perspective. Even if you can't see the whole thing in its entirety, we see other perspectives that the bio parent may be too flooded to see. This works for H too. He doesn't always know how to handle the thing, but he can see the thing very clearly. Whereas not so much for me, especially when it's a time of high tension.

[ForeverDad]

There was a lot more she shared, not related to the home issues; apparently this friend she's going to visit is actually her girlfriend (soon to be boyfriend, I guess this SO wants to transition and SD18 plans to help with the hormone shots) and they've been together for a year... SD18 now wants to transition as well. Navigating what all of that means is kind of small potatoes at the moment compared to the bigger crisis at Mom's. But at some point we'll have to figure that out.

As I recall there was a trans issue in the past with one of the girls.  Combine that with the extensive discord and chaos virtually her whole life, my spidey sense is tingling that it would be wise for her to have a therapist help her figure out *why* transitioning is being pondered.

My personal impression is that there are other issues, most likely a ton of FOO history, that has impacted her perception of herself and influencing her life choices now as an adult.  I guess my perspective is that if she had lived a childhood free from all the push-pull of her home environment, would she be contemplating such life altering changes?  This can impact whether she could have children, some processes can't be undone.

I don't know whether any studies have been made as to why some people choose such life changes.  Maybe there are studies out there explaining some factors why (or some indication why) alternative lifestyles are chosen?

[kells76]

Quick update.

Talked with my therapist. She confirmed that this is very reportable. She raised a concern that if we were to shelter B11 at all, it might escalate things with Stepdad (perceived humiliation, or exposure of failure). If SD16, for example, after SD18 goes on her trip, were to decide on her own to bring B11 here, that's one thing, but if we were to tell SD16 "you need to bring B11 over with you", that might be another. Taking both kids to a neutral place (a friend's house, or B11's grandma's house) might be better. T said it was really good that SD18 trusted H with all her disclosures and it sounded like SD18 had been "testing the waters" with us for a while. She also agreed it might be good to include both kids in any discussions H and I have (versus just including SD18). T also asked, before I brought it up, about if Girlfriend was aware of this. I said I didn't know but worried that if she didn't know but it got around to her, that might also escalate Stepdad (humiliation/exposure).

I also called a local DV hotline. They confirmed that there are red flags and it would not be overreacting to report this. They aren't mandatory reporters, though (it's a confidential hotline), so if necessary SD18 could call them for advice/support and it wouldn't generate an automatic report. They could listen to SD16 as a minor but couldn't work with her the same way. Confirmed that in our state, violence around or in front of kids is taken seriously. They suggested educating both kids about what mandatory reporting is and who are mandatory reporters.

[kells76]

Kids are with us for the weekend. Talked with SD18 a lot, will talk all 4 of us together tomorrow.

She doesn't want to have any kind of relationship with Stepdad any more and is only interacting with him because of B11. They rarely talk.

SD18 did tell Stepdad's girlfriend about his rages, but GF "has really different ideas of what's normal" and didn't do anything with the info. SD18 is unsure if GF told Stepdad that she (SD18) disclosed his rages.

He does not currently rage at a person and does not seem to specifically select someone's belongings to throw/break -- more random/whatever is at hand. He does not rage at the cat but will "play" with it rough and if SD16 asks him to stop, he gets offended.

SD18 isn't sure that B11's grandma (Stepdad's mom) is neutral enough. I recommended she put some friends' parents' phone numbers in B11's phone, then text those parents asking them to keep an eye out for messages from B11. He generally eats enough and SD18 feels ok with reminding Mom to get groceries.

SD18 felt the most scared when Stepdad was driving erratically. She said he locked the doors so they couldn't leave the car. I told her that blocking an exit is DV and she reluctantly agreed. H and I will try to take over as much driving as possible.

We are getting a "flea fogger" treatment tomorrow (for use in Mom's laundry area) and will go over instructions with the kids. If that doesn't work, we're ok with SD16 doing B11's laundry here.

She is ok with moving in with us when she gets back from her trip but worries about B11. We told her the door is always open here for all 3 of them as long as him being here (to visit, not to live) wasn't escalating to Stepdad. She thought it might be ok.
We agreed that ideally she could get her own place and maybe SD16 could move in with her. Yes, I get that both the kids "could" move in here but I think there is still a pretty big social/cultural hurdle for SD16, plus what it might communicate to Mom (a lot for SD16 to handle).

I filled her in on mandatory reporting vs anonymous hotline and let her know I called a local DV hotline. I plan to give her the number tomorrow. Also let SD18 know that we don't currently plan to call CPS but may have to if things escalate (and that 2 separate trained persons consider this call-worthy). She understands.

Both kids are still verbally committed to transitioning, surgery, etc. So, more conversations in the pipes.

They were great with my parents when we all had dinner together earlier -- engaged and present and grateful. Both seemed talkative and mostly happy.

Will see how the rest of the weekend goes...

[hellosun]

All the best to you this weekend, kells76! I’m really glad your therapist recommended taking an open and honest approach with SD18. It sounds like you are doing a great job of providing the kids with an environment that shows them what “normal” feels like, and a relationship where they are learning to build trust.

[Notwendy]

I am glad the kids have you and your H.

As to their wanting to surgically transition. It's such an emotionally charged topic it seems almost impossible to discuss it. But from the position of the girls growing up with a disordered mother as a female role model, and a disfunctional family dynamic with their step father, I think that is a reason to have caution about a permanent surgical decision.

Bringing up the family dysfunction would also be difficult. You don't want them to dismiss you as being critical of their mother or influenced by politics. It really comes down to caution about making a permanent decision (any permanent decision) based on what may be environmental and emotional influences and emotions that might change in the future. Hopefully the girls would be willing to wait until they are older to consider someting like that.

[livednlearned]

They were great with my parents when we all had dinner together earlier -- engaged and present and grateful. Both seemed talkative and mostly happy.

I notice this with my stepkids too. The nuttiest stuff (i.e. abusive) can be happening and somehow they are able to compartmentalize. There have been times when I thought they would want to talk about things or process with us what was going on, but that doesn't seem to be how it goes. Gratitude is expressed but not always verbalized.

More often when there are crises with BPD mom it's one of the kids confiding 1:1.

I do wonder at times if growing up in a BPD family creates a sense that walking on eggshells is baseline except when things go too far with the dysfunction which to healthy people would feel extreme. It's possible your kids look back and think "everything was great until stepdad started dating someone while married" instead of looking at the full picture for what it was even before then.

Last time SD29 came to visit she defended her mom when H mentioned SS24 was having a hard time living there and was trying to find a way to become independent, which BPD mom seems to be doing her best to prevent. I don't get it.

It doesn't seem to be a trajectory where they recognize abuse and then have boundaries. It's messier than that. I try to remember that when any trash talk comes up about their step dad or BPD mom. My intention has to always be "what's best here for ________. what might help them manage this situation." But inside, I have to admit that does take restraint on my part.

[GaGrl]

I can not imagine the internal conflict and process of transitioning that an adolescent must go through. Our life-long friends have a graduating high school senior who has decided to graduate as (male name) rather than (female name). The entire family -- parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles -- are refusing to use the preferred name. I feel helpless, in that I love this family, yet recognize that they have far right views that I don't share.

Does S18 plan to stay in your local area after her trip? Attend university locally? Might it be better for S18 to live further away?

It is very concerning that so much an emotional burden weighs on S18, in terms of the other siblings' safety and needs.

[ForeverDad]

The nuttiest stuff (i.e. abusive) can be happening and somehow they are able to compartmentalize. There have been times when I thought they would want to talk about things or process with us what was going on, but that doesn't seem to be how it goes. Gratitude is expressed but not always verbalized.

I do wonder at times if growing up in a BPD family creates a sense that walking on eggshells is baseline except when things go too far with the dysfunction which to healthy people would feel extreme. It's possible your kids look back and think "everything was great until stepdad started dating someone while married" instead of looking at the full picture for what it was even before then.

Here and there over the years I've seen comments that sometimes it's likely the kids don't know how to express their thoughts... can't verbalize the words, especially if they're youths in the midst of chaos.

[Notwendy]

Here and there over the years I've seen comments that sometimes it's likely the kids don't know how to express their thoughts... can't verbalize the words, especially if they're youths in the midst of chaos.

I think it's that we don't have a comparison point for "normal"- we may cognitively know that our BPD mothers aren't "normal" but it's our normal emotionally. We are used to it in a way. We've been coping with it.

Walking on eggshells was a part of that "normal".

[kells76]

H picked up SD16 from Mom's yesterday morning; Mom & Stepdad weren't there. SD16 let him come in while she got her stuff and H said it was really bad in there -- totally filthy, old food left out, dishes piled up.

H and I are taking over driving SD16 to school 4/5 days. He texted Mom to give her a heads up and Mom actually sounded grateful. SD16 is still defending Mom ("She's just soooo busy, it's really hard for her to keep up with laundry and drive Stepdad to work and me and B11 to school"). That's fine, I get it that a 16 year old might need to believe that her mom "would actually care and be competent if she just wasn't so busy".

So much for Stepdad being a feminist though. Guess he can't get himself to work, clean the house, or do his own laundry. Rant over 

SD16 told me on the drive to school today that there is no doorknob on her door, so she "locks" it with a pair of scissors, but people can still get in. I offered to help her install a doorknob.

H wants to make the CPS call. I am scared. I know we should but I am afraid it'll set off Stepdad. SD18 leaves for 3 months on Saturday so the timing is not great. And I think (given that we just offered to drive SD16 to school, and cover all transition transportation so the kids aren't in a car driven by Stepdad), Mom and Stepdad would know who made the call.

I suggested to H that we talk to my T about it.

SD18 knows we may have to call at some point, but fears that B11 would feel like she betrayed him, and/or wouldn't understand why it had to happen. SD16 doesn't know (I think) that we may have to call.

I'm fine with the "making the call" part, but worried about Stepdad's response.

[kells76]

Documenting stuff as I remember it.

We gave SD18 a real sword (3/4 size) for her last birthday (she's really into history). She was sorting thru stuff in her room this past weekend, figuring out what she wanted to take back to & keep at Mom's during her trip. She wanted to bring her sword to Mom's so that B11 could take care of it. DH told her he didn't think it was a good idea because he "didn't want anything bad to happen with it" over there. SD18 agreed so the sword is staying at our house.

Just trying not to forget stuff that might be important.

[Turkish]

Even tolerating exposure to DV is a felony (for mom). If your H knows about it, then it's possible he could lose custody. It happened to the bother of a friend at work.

The pests are gross, and I would think reportable, as well as being impossible to hide.

Flea foggers need a later dose to kill the fleas which will hatch from eggs later. My mom ran a puppy mill in our suburban home. You could see and feel the  fleas jumping on your legs.

[kells76]

Had another last-minute meeting with my T last night, with H, because H is leaning towards wanting to report.

She recommended including the kids in the process; not to the level of "you can decide if we make the report or not", but giving them a heads up about "so if we were to report, it could be this day or that day, and it might go like such and such". Basically not letting them decide but not hiding it from them.

She also recommended calling DHS/CPS and describing a "hypothetical" situation to learn more about their processes/approaches. I did that this afternoon; more on that later.

Finally, she was curious if there was anyone left in our small community who might have Stepdad's ear. I reached out to 3 people today and all of them had oddly similar stories: they decided to go out of contact with Stepdad a few years back due to disgust over his lack of integrity (one did try to keep in touch but was rebuffed). And, in the last 4-5 years, none of them noticed any overt red flags. So it tells me that Mom/Stepdad, whether on purpose or not, isolated themselves and the kids from this former community, and also were able to hide the dynamic well enough that friends and acquaintances didn't know it was going on. There is one person left who might still be in touch with Stepdad, so I will talk to H about him today (the person is a former friend of H's who took Mom's side during the divorce, but who generally seemed to be a decent enough person). If that person does still have a relationship with Stepdad, I may ask my T what her idea was for that involvement.

...

Called DHS today and asked what their response/support would be for a "hypothetical" scenario of DV plus neglect, where the DV is a stepdad yelling, behaving/driving erratically, and then throwing and breaking things while the kids are around, and the neglect involves infestations and an oldest child taking care of younger children.

"Assignable" in that DV scenario is: Stepdad throwing and breaking things around the kids.
Not "assignable": him driving erratically

"Assignable" in the neglect scenario is: rats -- yes 100%; fleas -- it depends
Not "assignable": 18 year old or 16 year old taking care of younger kid(s)

The DV stuff would likely involve a safety plan for Stepdad but nothing "assignable" on Mom. The safety plan might involve him having supervised time with the kids (could be Grandma if she is neutral enough). Typically, if the other adult is trying to leave the relationship, there is a lot of financial support, but because Mom is not inclined to leave, the "self sufficiency" services might not come into play.

Infestation stuff: plan would involve working with Mom to clean stuff up. In the past they have offered paying for a hotel while the home is exterminated, then providing a dumpster for more clean up, and a "family coach" if the logistics of all of that are too overwhelming. It is generally not "my way or the highway" from DHS -- if Mom is concerned that the landlords will see an exterminator truck and dumpster, then as long as she offers another solution, DHS can go with that.

The kids are really, really, really concerned that their cat at Mom's house (which the landlords don't allow) might get taken or that the landlords would get told about it. DHS said they don't generally contact landlords, and even if a cat is involved, they probably won't bring it up unless the infestation/cleanliness issue is directly cat related (cat poo and pee). They recommended getting the cat certified as an emotional support animal.

DHS said that given what I told them in this "hypothetical" scenario, it would get a 24 hour response time. They encouraged me to report. I haven't yet but will talk to H tonight. We are with both kids tomorrow so we need to talk to them then.

[Turkish]

That's a lot of good info. How do you feel about it?

I do recommend the electrocution rat trap. $50 was expensive where I live, but is reusable and clean.

[kells76]

That's a lot of good info. How do you feel about it?

Still totally torqued out.

I did also call the local humane society yesterday to see if they can temporarily house the kids' cat in case it gets to that point. They can for up to 6 weeks as long as we work thru the local DV center, so I called them, and they said that no case # is needed to initiate that process. So hopefully that helps the kids relax about the cat being safe. Or, if Mom accepts help with pest exterminators, that gets the cat out of the spotlight ahead of time.

May need to put in one more "hypothetical" call with DHS today -- Stepdad works at a university and I don't know if/how a DHS safety plan would impact his employment. It's not like "I want to protect him from his choices" but it would be bad for the kids if he lost his job or had to change jobs.

H and I driving SD16 to school is working so far (3 days in). She is mostly talkative on the drive in.

I pick up SD18 this afternoon and then the 4 of us need to talk at home because of the 6 persons/groups (half mandatory reporters, half not) I've talked about this with, every single one has said we need to report.

Please pray for us. IDK how the kids will take it.

[Pook075]

Please pray for us. IDK how the kids will take it.

Prayers sent!

I've stayed quiet here because I don't have any practical advice.  I will say, however, that protecting the kids is the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS.  I can only imagine what a wreck you are going through this, and the eventual blowback has to be super stressful. 

Maybe this will help.  The late pastor Charles Stanley, he gave a seminar for new pastors several years ago.  In his message, he said that the most important thing to learn as a Christian, the greatest life lesson from his career, is to do whatever God tells us regardless of the circumstances....and then let God deal with all the consequences. 

It may not make sense to us at the time, but there's a bigger plan in motion that we can't see and God is always working in our favor.  So while you can't control this situation, trust that He can and He's already many steps ahead of you.

[kells76]

We made the call tonight at 6pm, the kids wanted to be on it and share their experiences for the report. So it was me, H, SD18, & SD16.

They did disclose some more stuff -- apparently Stepdad would "make them drinks" that did have some alcohol in them, and the kids knew there would be a bit, but after agreeing to try a drink with only a bit of alcohol, he would make the drinks with more liquor than the kids thought or wanted, and not tell them. The kids would feel tipsy when they never wanted or agreed to that.

The kids had to go back to Mom's around 7:30. We all agreed that them telling B11 that some people might ask him questions at school was ok and could help him, so the kids did that.

We also agreed that I would give Mom a heads up text that "just me" made the call -- hoping that she would be in a "help me, I'm a victim" place and accept support.

Immediately after I sent that, I got a "I have no idea what you're talking about, what did they tell you" text, and a couple minutes later, SD18 called me, scared because Mom & Stepdad were so angry with her.

I told her to get herself and SD16 and B11 in a bedroom together. She did and I told her I was driving over and would park around the corner. That was probably ~9:30?

She said that SD16 & B11 were scared but ok. They are still at Mom's house. She got in the car and was crying and so mad at herself for "messing everything up". Mom and Stepdad are catastrophizing ("Mom will have to drop out of school, they will take B11 away, people will lose their jobs") and blaming SD18: "you should have just told us how you were feeling, we could have had a family meeting, you should have given me a chance to listen to you". SD18 feels so guilty and like she wrecked everything.

Mom is texting her asking what to expect in the process.

SD18 wanted to call the hotline back and ask them to pull back the report. I told her she could call, I didn't know what would happen or what they were allowed to do, but it would be important to share her thoughts and concerns with them. She did call and got some info -- they will email her the status of the report. She wants to share that with Mom.

H and I have tried to just listen and validate and occasionally bring some reality in. She feels so responsible to "fix this" before she goes on her trip.

After an hour or two she was calmer and more able to process the info that even if I/we hadn't made the call tonight, it had to happen soon -- it was going to happen within days -- because my T thought it needed to be reported soon. SD18 was able to understand that, I think.

She asked if she could tell them that actually I was the one who made the report. I said yes, throw me under the bus, and my T as well. That seemed to help.

I am scared. H is supposed to pick up SD16 at Mom's tomorrow morning for school and I have no idea what will happen. I'm ok if the adults are angry with us but am terrified that this will undo all the progress we made with trust with SD16.

I am also scared that Stepdad will escalate. I think both he and Mom perceive this as a major betrayal.

Mosaic assessment for that situation before tonight was a 6/10 with comment "situations like this often escalate".

I wish that I could have directed Mom and Stepdad's anger at me, not the kids.

[Notwendy]

You did the right thing for the kids, Kells.
Consider the possibility that there's more that the kids didn't tell you. They told you enough.
If it escalates- there's more evidence for their behavior.

Thankfully, the kids have your and your H's support- that's big.

[GaGrl]

You absolutely did the right thing, kells. It was inevitable, so better that it be done before S18 as not available.

My sister was a mandated reporter and always agonized when she made a report -- except the time she saw bruises and cigarette burns on an elementary age child.

[kells76]

Thank you both. Agonizing is right.

H was able to pick up SD16 and take her to school ok this morning.

SD18 is still at our place in her room. I took today off of work. SD18 wants to head back to Mom's sometime and talk with Mom. I said I could drive her over.

Have a T appointment this afternoon.

[livednlearned]

kells76, does SD18 know that you and H were already suspecting something wasn't right? It seems like SD18 is thinking that her opening up to H (and you) led to this. Does she understand that this thing was starting to unravel (like this stuff does) and was probably going to end badly one way or another?

It's so similar to the choice to leave an abusive relationship. Do you wait for the very very worst thing or do you go when it's super bad, before the very very worst thing happens.

I suspect mom was totally blind-sided that SD18 was hurting about what was going on and not confiding to her, after years trying to enmesh.

Your T will be super helpful and I'm glad you'll see her tonight. It also seems like an opportunity for SD18 to learn how drama triangles work since it's so ... overt here. She's asking if you will volunteer to be perpetrator so she can be, what? Rescuer?

[boundriesrus]

I too have experience with fleas, except this is in my MIL house, who kinda spiraled after her divorce...20 some odd years ago. Now her house is infested with fleas, to the point where she will refuse to put flea collars on her cats as it may cause them to get cancer. In the mean time she has said outloud that the "kitties have priority in this house"...in front of her only granddaughter, who gets eaten alive by them everytime we stay there. my BPD wife (undiagnosed currently, but working on that) keeps defending her mom and dresses our daughter in long sleeve shirts, pants, and knee high socks in the middle of summer, with the thermostat set to 80. I have asked my wife for years to address this issue with her mom, and will not allow me to bring it up in front of her. I finally put my foot down a year ago and refused to have my daughter stay there. Regardless if they are family or not. Its not right, nor is it healthy for the kiddo, who is only 6.

[kells76]

Yeah, SD18 and I may need to talk about how in the moment, I suggested a lower skill approach to conflict -- telling her "tell them whatever you need to to keep yourself safe" -- but long term we need to figure out a different approach to get her needs met. She said last night that she just wanted to be loved and to have a good connection with her mom. I wonder if SD18 is trying to get that need met by being Victim ("I had no idea kells76 wanted to make the call") and being Rescued by Mom.

She texted a bit ago and said it went pretty ok and she felt better. But then H texted me saying Mom seemed to be messing with SD18's head, because SD18 was texting him for reassurance that he wasn't going to try to get custody of SD16.

[ForeverDad]

In my case an officer listened to my ex's repeated death threats, as recorded before, during and after my call to 911.  The officer told me to file a report, took a copy of my recording as documentation, and warned me not to drop the case as so many do or else it would get even worse.

The voice recorder's speaker didn't work so during the week I downloaded it and played it for another officer.  I signed the report, he advised me to never ever think about wimping out and withdrawing the report, and Threat of DV case was started against her.

I suspect all DV responders are aware of the likelihood of persons recanting, especially children.  The fear and guilt are no doubt tremendous.  How to reassure them that the sudden blaming is not their fault?

[kells76]

FD, my T is on the same page -- the fact that SD18 called back right away and said "can I take it all back" is, I am praying, noticed by the hotline staff as more evidence of the dynamic.

[Pook075]

She texted a bit ago and said it went pretty ok and she felt better. But then H texted me saying Mom seemed to be messing with SD18's head, because SD18 was texting him for reassurance that he wasn't going to try to get custody of SD16.

SD16 and 18 will get through this, and you will as well.  The chaos is for right now, not for forever, so keep things in perspective when dealing with the blowout over the next few days/weeks.  Everyone is at a heightened state wondering what will happen, but that will pass when something does happen.

Remember, this happened because mom wasn't being the best mom.  That's on her.  Let them learn from this and hopefully, that home becomes a better environment for everyone involved.

[kells76]

That's our hope too, that Mom feels supported and gets help with making things better there.

CPS called me today and chatted for ~20 minutes.  They want to do a home visit with us and the kids tomorrow evening.

H is concerned that Mom will make counter accusations, and I'd wondered that, too.

[kells76]

Going back to the triangulation stuff, as unhealthy as it is, it would be a familiar dynamic to have Kids = Victims, Mom&Stepdad = Rescuers, and Dad&kells76 = Perpetrators. It would be unhealthy but hopefully stable for the next 2 days?

[Pook075]

H is concerned that Mom will make counter accusations, and I'd wondered that, too.

I'd be surprised if she didn't make counter-accusations, to be honest.  But what matters is actual evidence, documentation, etc.  Harsh words, not so much.  I wouldn't be overly concerned about that aspect.

[Turkish]

A CPS home visit would make me nervous, but once it's done, it's over. And you have no fleas and rats to put away.

[livednlearned]

CPS called me today and chatted for ~20 minutes.  They want to do a home visit with us and the kids tomorrow evening.

How do you feel about the call?

Counter-accusations were a mainstay of my co-parenting experience it became almost like wallpaper. The tricky part wasn't so much what materializes out of the accusations, it's how my kid felt in the middle.

Something I learned from our parenting coordinator was to ask my son, "Do you have any questions for me?" No pressing or anything, just opening the door in case he wanted to walk through. He didn't always have questions in the moment but he did seem to have them later, often they were things I never thought he would be wondering. One thing that always struck me as odd was his concern that n/BPDx would be lonely. For some reason, whatever we were going through at the time, I had reached a place of certainty that I was doing the right thing, probably with the confidence and support from the parenting coordinator. I think my certainty that I had a job to do, and it was about making sure S11 was safe, cleared away whatever anxieties S11 had. His job was to be a kid and my job was to make sure the adults in his life were making sure he could do that.

I get the sense your kids know that about you and H, despite mom and stepdad's chronic triangulation?

[ForeverDad]

As you are surely well aware, the investigators will want some separate time with the children, possibly together and separately.  They will want the girls to feel free and comfortable to relate their experiences.  While SD18 has no legal requirement to remain in that home, SD16 still has a greater to stick it out there, whether because she's not an adult yet, loyalty to her younger brother or loyalty to her mother, etc.  (Since B11 is in the other home, his intervews will likely be elsewhere, perhaps also at his school which is usually considered a "neutral" location.)

Understand that despite them living part of their lives with you in a stable and calm home, they still may not realize how much their other home's environment has impacted them.

No one wants to be seen in a bad light.  So it's predictable that the other parents, as disordered and dysfunctional as they are, will feel no compunction against Blame Shifting everything onto whomever they can.

Expect too for BioMom and her husband to rush to clean up their home before a visit.

[zachira]

One thing to keep in mind is that CPS has very high employee turnover rates so if you get the impression that the worker interviewing you is inexperienced you will likely be right.

[Notwendy]

I think this kind of behavior surprises us but if we consider that the pwBPD is in victim perspective and doesn't believe they are accountable for their behavior, then in that moment, they feel they are being attacked and so a counter accusation and escalation are part of their reaction.

I experienced something similar when expressing concern about my BPD mother's behavior with my- at the time- elderly father. I called social services to see what intervention might be possible but being that he was a legal adult, he'd have to be the one to agree to that.

With the Karpman triangle- rarely are adults true victims because adults have choices. True victims include children and the elderly/infirm because they are dependent on others to take care of them. So, it was entirely appropriate that you stood up for the children, (and that I stood up for my father) in their situations. The problem is in the dynamics with a person with BPD. To them, they are in victim position. Part of the family dynamics was to not address BPD mother's behaviors.

The reaction from my BPD mother once there was the possibility of "exposure" and the potential embarrassment/shame (it wasn't my intention to have her feel that way) was the counter- accusations- to tell others her version first. (I had no intention of discussing her with other people).

If my mother is at odds with someone, she elicits people to "her side" against the other person either with coersion or threats. There's no way to know what she's told the girls to get them to "recall" what they said. My mother has called me to tell me to "call so and so and say this to them" and she's also enlisted other people to do this with me too. I may get a call from someone in her circle saying how wonderful she is and how I should do something she wants done and I know she's asked them to do this.

Once people have heard her version, it puts me in a difficult position to try to clarify the situation. For me to talk about her in a negative way can also be seen in a negative light. But these are people in her circle- not mine so they can believe what they believe.

But what is at stake here is more serious than a social connection. The girls' well being is at stake. You will be talking to CPS. It's their job to decide to believe you or not. On your part, you need to know you did your best for the girls and were open and honest with them.

[kells76]

I'd be surprised if she didn't make counter-accusations, to be honest.  But what matters is actual evidence, documentation, etc.  Harsh words, not so much.  I wouldn't be overly concerned about that aspect.

There is a part of me that is relieved, in a way, that there is finally a physical manifestation of the emotional chaos. There was never enough to hang your hat on, when it was "just" emotional and psychological dysfunction, but the material state of Mom's house is actionable, and seems like a real world representation of the chaos and conflict.

It would not be surprising if she says that H and I don't support the kids' identities, are hateful bigots, and have a terrifying amount of firearms. She is good at making emotionally convincing arguments based on a grain of truth.

[kells76]

A CPS home visit would make me nervous, but once it's done, it's over. And you have no fleas and rats to put away.

We did realize that SD16's room (well, "room" -- legally it is not a room because it does not have a real door, but I built a jerry rigged one) did not have a smoke detector, even though there was one in the hall, so H put one in.

I think like I mentioned above, it's the cultural stuff (differing religious beliefs informing approaches to identity; having firearms/weapons in the home) that I would be worried about, but the process is already rolling and it is what it is. I guess I feel a weird relief that it's kind of out of my hands how this turns out.

[Pook075]

There is a part of me that is relieved, in a way, that there is finally a physical manifestation of the emotional chaos. There was never enough to hang your hat on, when it was "just" emotional and psychological dysfunction, but the material state of Mom's house is actionable, and seems like a real world representation of the chaos and conflict.

It would not be surprising if she says that H and I don't support the kids' identities, are hateful bigots, and have a terrifying amount of firearms. She is good at making emotionally convincing arguments based on a grain of truth.

Sure, but you're expecting that and what you're doing is not illegal.  All social services cares about is if a home is safe for the kids; all the other stuff is just noise they're trained to filter out.  So let her say whatever...it really doesn't matter as long as your home is in order and you care for the kids properly (food, hygiene, transportation, safe environment, support).

It must be a big relief for this to be out of your hands- what happens will happen and it's no longer about empty words.  And maybe nothing happens...that's fine...because the point has been made that there is a minimum standard by the state.

[kells76]

How do you feel about the call?

I felt relieved that she asked about bigger context and I got on the record that I'd had concerns about the emotional/psychological stuff going on over there for >10 years. I also told her about how Wednesday night went down -- that I'd hoped that it would be better for the kids if Mom got a heads up, but instead it escalated and ended up with SD18 calling me crying saying she was scared because of how angry Mom and Stepdad were, and me driving over and on the phone telling her to get the kids together in a bedroom with their phones.

She was the 4th person at DHS with whom I talked and honestly everyone has been really kind. I definitely had/have a knee-jerk stance of "keep government out of family life" but this is beyond that and I'm grateful they've seemed compassionate.

Counter-accusations were a mainstay of my co-parenting experience it became almost like wallpaper. The tricky part wasn't so much what materializes out of the accusations, it's how my kid felt in the middle.

Something I learned from our parenting coordinator was to ask my son, "Do you have any questions for me?" No pressing or anything, just opening the door in case he wanted to walk through. He didn't always have questions in the moment but he did seem to have them later, often they were things I never thought he would be wondering. One thing that always struck me as odd was his concern that n/BPDx would be lonely. For some reason, whatever we were going through at the time, I had reached a place of certainty that I was doing the right thing, probably with the confidence and support from the parenting coordinator. I think my certainty that I had a job to do, and it was about making sure S11 was safe, cleared away whatever anxieties S11 had. His job was to be a kid and my job was to make sure the adults in his life were making sure he could do that.

Thank you for that -- I think that's what I need to remember through all this is not to get caught up in "what's Mom saying now" but to step back and focus on the kids, and how they feel about the process, instead of on the adults.

I get the sense your kids know that about you and H, despite mom and stepdad's chronic triangulation?

H was great about explicitly telling the kids that developmentally, they should not be doing the "house management and parenting" stuff. He told SD18 that she needs to be focused on launching her own life right now, and told SD16 that it is not her job to take over for SD18 no matter how good SD16 is at that stuff.

[kells76]

As you are surely well aware, the investigators will want some separate time with the children, possibly together and separately.  They will want the girls to feel free and comfortable to relate their experiences.  While SD18 has no legal requirement to remain in that home, SD16 still has a greater to stick it out there, whether because she's not an adult yet, loyalty to her younger brother or loyalty to her mother, etc.  (Since B11 is in the other home, his intervews will likely be elsewhere, perhaps also at his school which is usually considered a "neutral" location.)

DHS explicitly told me that they want to talk to the kids at our house tonight. We haven't told the kids yet but H is telling SD16 at school pickup today and I'm telling SD18 when I get her this afternoon.

Understand that despite them living part of their lives with you in a stable and calm home, they still may not realize how much their other home's environment has impacted them.

No one wants to be seen in a bad light.  So it's predictable that the other parents, as disordered and dysfunctional as they are, will feel no compunction against Blame Shifting everything onto whomever they can.

Expect too for BioMom and her husband to rush to clean up their home before a visit.

SD16 told me "I always though you were just a clean freak until I started spending time at my friends' houses".

I'll try to keep those reminders about Blame Shifting in mind, that (a) it'll probably happen, and (b) the real issue isn't what Mom says but how the kids feel.

I kind of expect Mom to rush to make the kids clean up the home, putting the guilt on them that "if you don't clean it well enough then they'll take B11 away".

[kells76]

One thing to keep in mind is that CPS has very high employee turnover rates so if you get the impression that the worker interviewing you is inexperienced you will likely be right.

Thank you, it's good to know I shouldn't be surprised. All the phone screeners/workers were great but yes, that may not translate to field workers.

[kells76]

I think this kind of behavior surprises us but if we consider that the pwBPD is in victim perspective and doesn't believe they are accountable for their behavior, then in that moment, they feel they are being attacked and so a counter accusation and escalation are part of their reaction.

...

But what is at stake here is more serious than a social connection. The girls' well being is at stake. You will be talking to CPS. It's their job to decide to believe you or not. On your part, you need to know you did your best for the girls and were open and honest with them.

That sounds accurate -- Mom is really checked out, but "she's just so busy with work and school" -- how could it possibly be her fault, she's just a hard working adult student turning her life around.

It's interesting, too; last weekend, we bought a "flea fogger" for the kids and explained to the kids how to use it and that they needed to tell B11 about it. SD18 said they did use it and it seemed to be working. But there was this feeling of like "see, things aren't that bad, because now the fleas are getting under control" without putting the last pieces together of: Mom literally did nothing to solve that. It actually isn't a good thing that the flea problem is getting addressed this way, because it's kind of proving that Mom isn't addressing it! It's Dad walking the kids through how to do it, so no, it isn't a good thing that "it's getting better", because at a meta level, the reason why it was bad has not been addressed.

...

I hope that even if the kids don't like how the process has gone, they can keep in mind that they want things to be better for their brother.

[GaGrl]

It might take several flea bombs to fully contain the problem. Eggs will hatch, and if the cat isn't given a flea bath with something to repel fleas going forward, it will be a cycle. Does the cat go outside?

[livednlearned]

I think like I mentioned above, it's the cultural stuff (differing religious beliefs informing approaches to identity; having firearms/weapons in the home) that I would be worried about, but the process is already rolling and it is what it is. I guess I feel a weird relief that it's kind of out of my hands how this turns out.

Firearms may come up when they visit. Safety was on the radar for us because n/BPDx had them in the home, mostly in regard to well checks and domestic assistance but it was one of those things that seemed to get attention whenever third-party professionals were involved. They may want to know the basics like are the guns locked up, where are they located, what kind, who has access, etc.

I think competent third-party professionals can kinda tell who is staying focused on the kids, and who is focused on throwing mud at the other parent to create a shield.

Like Notwendy said, with BPD there is a need to be victim regardless of facts. My ex also had an internal mandate to make sure whatever was bad about him, I must be worse.

Stepdad might have more of that given his narcissism.

Kind of makes me wonder if you want to give your HR person a heads up. I did that proactively at the suggestion of my boss after she got a bizarre email from n/BPDx.

[kells76]

Firearms may come up when they visit. Safety was on the radar for us because n/BPDx had them in the home, mostly in regard to well checks and domestic assistance but it was one of those things that seemed to get attention whenever third-party professionals were involved. They may want to know the basics like are the guns locked up, where are they located, what kind, who has access, etc.

I think competent third-party professionals can kinda tell who is staying focused on the kids, and who is focused on throwing mud at the other parent to create a shield.

Yeah, it's all in safes (ammo separate), and the kids have never expressed any interest in handling them or made any worrisome jokes or comments. H and I both have keys, but I don't think the kids know I have a key. We've never seen any indication that they have tried to get into stuff without telling us. We do try to at least talk about gun safety if there's a movie showing unsafe habits, but that's as far as it goes. It's just difficult to know how CPS will take it because we live in an area that has very different cultural perspectives on firearms (i.e., we are not in a rural area).

Like Notwendy said, with BPD there is a need to be victim regardless of facts. My ex also had an internal mandate to make sure whatever was bad about him, I must be worse.

Stepdad might have more of that given his narcissism.

It's been a long time since I posted about this, but H is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, and Mom knows that. And, unrelatedly, as far as I recall, he did have an HR complaint against him from ~15-20 years ago, when he worked for a large corporation and made a "your mom" or "that's what she said" response to something a coworker said.

I'm worried that Mom will try to paint him as a sexual abuser. I know, big picture, that (a) allegations from decades ago don't count, (b) the timing would be suspect, and (c) if she's that concerned about it, she sure didn't do anything to protect the kids at all.

But she's in victim/fight/flight mode so I worry.

Kind of makes me wonder if you want to give your HR person a heads up. I did that proactively at the suggestion of my boss after she got a bizarre email from n/BPDx.

Thank you. My team lead and boss were wondering that already, so I just emailed them to say let's get HR in the loop ahead of time, hope nothing happens, but be prepared if it does.

[ForeverDad]

You've been dealing with this for years and years.  Now suddenly it's virtually exploded.  Why?  That can be explained as a typical process, a concept applied to the price of precious metals in the last 6 months and for more examples too... "Gradually, then suddenly."

In Ernest Hemingway’s novel, The Sun Also Rises, in one conversation an interlocuter questions another on how he went bankrupt, resulting in the now well-known response: “Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.” The witty reply is one that can be applied to many situations: falling asleep, financial crises, rogue waves, avalanches, and even death.

CPS needs to understand this is not something that developed only recently, this has been simmering for years.  So a quick fix and exit stage left will not address the core issues.  Sadly, that's a dilemma officialdom faces, too often they just don't try to fix people, it usually fails.  So for the future there needs to be strong enforceable Boundaries.

[kells76]

Survived the CPS home visit, lasted ~90 minutes: 30 min for SD16 (who requested that SD18 be there too) and 60 minutes for H and me. They did not ask to see anything in our house. They said that Mom's house did appear cleaned up. Investigation process takes 30-60 days. They did take contact info for my T (who is acquainted with Mom/Stepdad), H's T (our MC, who has worked with Stepdad, and with H and Mom in the past), the kids' old T (has worked with both kids and all 4 adults), and the kids' former teacher from the co-op school times (when H got a one year job there ~9 years ago, Mom pulled the kids out for only that year then re-enrolled them when H's contract was up).

There was one question one of them asked that kind of felt like a "bait to see if you react" question (about one of SD16's unusual interests) but we try to support her in it so it wasn't a big deal.

They did ask H if he had any official diagnoses or took any prescription meds (no and no), hard to say if that was a normal part of the "functionality" assessment or was based on something Mom said.

I have a report # because I didn't make an anonymous report, so I may check on things over the next few weeks.

SD18 flies out of the country tomorrow morning... Hasn't really sunk in yet.

[livednlearned]

It must be a relief to have that out of the way.

How did SD18 seem to be doing? What a lot of stress to experience before her trip. It's hard to imagine how she must be feeling. Hopefully she eventually sees shining sunlight on the situation as a hard but adult (and courageous) thing to do.

Something that I realized in my custody battle is that often there are two related but separate outcomes.

One is the official/legal outcome, and the other is the BPD/NPD outcome (retaliation, parental alienation, loyalty binding). If the third-party professionals are competent, the official/legal outcome seems to help manage the BPD/NPD outcome a bit, even if it doesn't do it quickly or effectively right away.

The BPD/NPD outcome can spin out some weird chaos. n/BPDx took a kind of "burn them all down" approach to anyone involved in our case, including his L who withdrew. It was mostly performative, or maybe his substance abuse was too far along to keep up the effort it took to light things on fire. It was like he experienced a narcissistic injury from anyone who participated in maligning him, even when it was his own actions that were being investigated. None of it really went anywhere though. He was so disordered toward the end he wasn't thinking very clearly.

Maybe you'll eventually get to learn what some of the other professionals have shared when the investigation is over. In some states I think you can request the final CPS report (after the active investigation closes) through public records.

It's a lot to have professionals invade your private life like this, even if you know it might help.

Hope you get a little respite and that things stay quiet for a second so you can catch your breath 

[zachira]

It sounds like CPS is doing a thorough investigation. You are very likely believed because you have had custody of the girls for many years so it does not look like a sudden smear campaign to get full custody as often happens with recent/impending divorces. You were transparent and open which was likely welcomed by the CPS investigators as they are often treated with a great deal of hostility and dishonesty. CPS may not be able to tell you much about what they find out because of confidentiality though you will likely learn through other sources what actions CPS takes or by changes you see.

Getting CPS involved will likely validate for the girls what they have been experiencing for years and help them to mature into being healthier adults then their mother and step dad.

[kells76]

It sounds like CPS is doing a thorough investigation. You are very likely believed because you have had custody of the girls for many years so it does not look like a sudden smear campaign to get full custody as often happens with recent/impending divorces. You were transparent and open which was likely welcomed by the CPS investigators as they are often treated with a great deal of hostility and dishonesty. CPS may not be able to tell you much about what they find out because of confidentiality though you will likely learn through other sources what actions CPS takes or by changes you see.

Getting CPS involved will likely validate for the girls what they have been experiencing for years and help them to mature into being healthier adults then their mother and step dad.

What's interesting is that H doesn't have custody, at all. And yeah, I am hoping that the fact that this is >10 years post divorce will keep them from thinking it's a "retribution" or "getting back" situation.

In a way, it's sort of a relief in this process -- no, H has never had any say in or made any legal decisions for their health, education, etc. If there's an issue there, it's a Mom problem.

I may offer them a couple more names of the kids' former teachers, from their ~4th-8th grade school that Mom picked.

[kells76]

It must be a relief to have that out of the way.

How did SD18 seem to be doing? What a lot of stress to experience before her trip. It's hard to imagine how she must be feeling. Hopefully she eventually sees shining sunlight on the situation as a hard but adult (and courageous) thing to do.

I have no idea if I feel relieved. I told my T that I'm not sure I can relax now until SD16 graduates from HS in 3 years 1 month. H and I talked and are on the same page that even though she turns 18 before graduating, we are staying in town and not moving until she has graduated (at 19).

Both kids seemed okay-ish; it was very "full circle" Friday night because it was the first time SD18 had driven herself over to our place, and at the end of the night, she drove herself and SD16 back. I can put myself in her shoes and remember being around that age and so excited to strike out on my own, especially if there was a boyfriend/SO involved. Her SO seems to be a kind and supportive person, who I hope has some good perspective on helping SD18 see that this was not the wrong thing to do, just because of how people responded. I didn't hear anything like "Well SO didn't think it was a good idea to call".

Something that I realized in my custody battle is that often there are two related but separate outcomes.

One is the official/legal outcome, and the other is the BPD/NPD outcome (retaliation, parental alienation, loyalty binding). If the third-party professionals are competent, the official/legal outcome seems to help manage the BPD/NPD outcome a bit, even if it doesn't do it quickly or effectively right away.

The BPD/NPD outcome can spin out some weird chaos. n/BPDx took a kind of "burn them all down" approach to anyone involved in our case, including his L who withdrew. It was mostly performative, or maybe his substance abuse was too far along to keep up the effort it took to light things on fire. It was like he experienced a narcissistic injury from anyone who participated in maligning him, even when it was his own actions that were being investigated. None of it really went anywhere though. He was so disordered toward the end he wasn't thinking very clearly.

That bold part is what I wonder about with the rage directed at SD18 Wednesday night.

I told SD16 in the car this morning that I was sorry for how things went down Wednesday night, and I wished I had found a different way to give Mom a heads up. Sounds like SD16 is fully in the "DHS really isn't the right call for all situations, we just have a different lifestyle, and there was a lot of missing context" camp (i.e., Mom's kool-aid, I'm guessing). But she still got in the car with me and invited H and I to her school event tomorrow. She said she wasn't mad at me and that it's in the past now.

I told her that I wanted her to know that it was at a point that if I didn't call, that my therapist said she would have to -- that the call could be made under our control, or not under our control, but was going to happen.

I didn't tell her that my concern was way less about "lifestyle" and way more about how there is no lifestyle that should be OK with throwing/breaking things around kids and scaring them with unsafe driving and other behaviors.

Going back to the "two outcomes" point, re: retaliation/PA/loyalty, I don't know if she's just saying stuff ("I'm not mad") but doesn't trust us any more, or just saying stuff ("shouldn't have gotten DHS involved") but does still trust us, or what. It is my biggest fear, that we've damaged the trust we've worked so hard to build with her. All I can hope is that no matter what she says, the fact that she still tells us about her life and wants us involved is something?

Maybe you'll eventually get to learn what some of the other professionals have shared when the investigation is over. In some states I think you can request the final CPS report (after the active investigation closes) through public records.

It's a lot to have professionals invade your private life like this, even if you know it might help.

Hope you get a little respite and that things stay quiet for a second so you can catch your breath  

Because it was not an anonymous report, I have the report # and can track its progress. I'll have to look up our state's CPS records laws. Yay, another first for 2024  

H and I went out of town this past weekend. We may have to be in the same room as Mom/Stepdad tomorrow for SD16's school presentation, and then Saturday for SD16's extracurricular. Not excited.

H and I picking up SD16 from Mom's in the morning went OK late last week and today. Not sure why it's going OK -- but I guess we'll take it a day at a time.

I feel beyond wrecked. Zero stars, would not recommend.

[kells76]

Picking up SD16 at Mom's in the a.m. has been going OK. I just sit in the car and text her when I get there. H did go up to the door and knocked the other day; Stepdad answered the door, called for SD16, and shut the door on H. At least H could laugh it off. And it doesn't seem like Mom or Stepdad are trying to "convince" SD16 that "she doesn't really want to go with us". I don't know why not; that's what they'd usually do in the past.

We all went to a school event for SD16 last night. We saw Mom & Stepdad across the hall, waited for them to go in the room first, then went in and sat on the opposite side of the room. Stepdad was his usual self, center of attention/super loud. H said that Mom looked rough. SD16 did come up to us and chat a bit -- wasn't doing the "if Mom is here then I'll pretend I don't see you" thing.

H has been texting with SD16 to plan some trips this summer. She is really excited about a couple of them and has given input about when she wants to do them. So that's positive, that she still wants to do things with us. I am coping with lots of anxiety about how this weekend (when she should be with us) she said she wants to spend all day Friday, plus Friday night, at Mom's (Friday is all-grades prom at school, and Saturday she has a midday extracurricular event). I can kind of talk myself down by putting myself in her shoes -- she said she wants to get ready at Mom's and plus she has her event stuff (a lot to lug around) at Mom's. The fear is still there, that she's just coming up with plausible excuses not to spend the night at our place, or that after her event on Saturday, she'll say something like "Can I just go back to Mom's, I'm really tired" or something. I am working to get in the headspace of "whatever she and H work out is cool with me" -- it's H's parenting time so if he's good with something then that's his deal.

Overall, I really have no idea what to expect at any moment. I am 1000% looking over my shoulder and waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[livednlearned]

I was thinking about the timing of all this. My son's psychiatrist used to say he was trained to believe that there are few coincidences.

Meaning, maybe SD18 needed to tell her safe parents what was happening with the not-safe parents so she could go on her trip and be a young adult.

SD16's behaviors suggest the sunlight on her situation was a net positive.

If stepdad and mom were unified, maybe they would double down on alienation behaviors but there is a point where it's hard to argue with a reality that the kids experience and affirm.

My step kids have a similar dynamic. Big alienation stuff they mostly shrug off at this point because they have enough sense of self to judge for themselves. It's the more subtle alienation that pains me. Their parents have been divorced long enough they can see who is safe, consistent, sanitary, thoughtful. But BPD mom sets up loyalty binds that have a hint of alienation without being full-blown. We planned a trip for all the kids and their partners to gather this summer and BPD mom planned an elective surgery the day before the trip. Coincidence or not, she makes sure the kids pay attention to her when they're with us.

Maybe a bit of that goes on with SD16. It seems like it would be easy for BPD mom to point out why it's better/easier/faster/smarter to stay at her house. She might not say outright that you and H are murderous unicorns because that card no longer plays, so she tries a different one that achieves a similar result.

[GaGrl]

And I 1000% agree that SD18 had her reasons so as to be "free" to leave. Bulls-eye.