how many boundaries can I set at once?

[FirstSteps]

I'm at a turning point in my 16 year marriage.  There was a massive meltdown this weekend, and while it was beyond awful, it also jarred me out of our relationship pattern.  For days now, I've been maybe "wounded indifferent" and not responsive to the anger and blaming but also not responsive to today's attempts to just make it all "go back to normal."

I've refused to talk about anything.  And she really wants some guidance.  I don't feel super obligated but I am going camping with my son and another family this weekend (first time ever, which was a big step on its own to plan).  And I feel it's maybe too cruel to make her wait until next Monday.

I've actually written a list of demands or agreements that I need.  Like limiting our relationship talks to only 1-2x per week, no serious talks in bed, no messaging during my work day, acknowledgment that I'm going to leave "arguments" where I feel blamed.  I can feel that I'm willing to try this last thing - to just lay my cards out on the table and see what happens.

How much is too much with someone with BPD?  Is it worth doing this?  Or am I better off just changing without the talk?  Can I have 5 new boundaries at once?

And how far do people go?  I've read in the "success stories" thread about people demanding DBT and so on.  She's on this kick that she will restart anti-depressants "for me" now.  The thing is - I don't think they're going to do all that much.  Can't hurt, as she's depressed.  But I more want her to go to DBT, work through a High Conflict relationship book, get a doctor she actually talks to, stop acting as her own psychiatrist, and so on.

I've never demanded any of this before.  I've been instinctively good about just letting her be her the whole time, actually.  I've put in two boundaries this spring that she actually sort of follows.  That was a success, and my kids are better off for it.  On the other hand, I'm not so much, as she just redirected all the negative energy in other directions.  Which is a lesson on its own, I know.

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[GaGrl]

Can you separate the boundaries as "my boundaries, this is what I will do when you do X" from the "here are some things vs I'd like us to do (DBT, which you can participate in via workbooks, etc.)"?

[FirstSteps]

That is a good point.  I can separate them, and I probably should only do the boundaries now.  I have a huge problem identifying a singular action and then giving a consequence.  I'm much better at "I do not want you to blame me during conversations about X"  but then I don't have a set line.

This conversation is getting framed as whether we're divorcing or separating so all the day to day boundaries seem small.  But I think I need to be that concrete and not get lost in the fuzzy big picture.

[Notwendy]

I think it helps to keep in mind that boundaries are not something we place on to someone else, but about our own behavior. They reflect our values.

So boundaries are self defined- they may be different for different people.

How many is too many? When we consider a boundary, we also have to consider our behavior- what will we do if---- and that can be difficult and take a lot of emotional energy. Our limit is as much as we can manage. Also change is slow, so to have the expectation of a lot of change at once may not help. Few is probably better than a lot.

So to reframe your boundaries:

Messaging at work:

I think it's hard to reduce to zero. Also if you give her the time when you will check messages, she knows you are not ignoring her.

Your need/value: I need to work productively and without distractions. I will check my phone at lunchtime and return your messages then.

Your boundary (how will you uphold this value): you only check your phone at lunch, no matter how many messages are on there. ( it's your behavior you can control )

No late night discussions:

Your need/value: I need to sleep to be at my best.

This is a big one because, when we are tired, we don't have emotional reserve and can easily slip into a circular discussion. This, you can discuss up front. " We need our sleep and so won't have a serious discussion after 8 pm". Then if she starts one - say "I hear you but I am too tired to discuss this now, let's discuss this tomorrow at 7. She may persist, but you will need to repeat and also be able to leave the room if needed.

I think it's good to discuss boundaries but not from the "you" standpoint. "You will not message me at work"- that isn't something you can control. What you can control is how often you check your phone. So present them from the "I" perspective. " I need to work without distraction and so I will ___________________"

I think the best chance at success is one at a time. You can have as many as you want but the patterns between two people are usually long standing habits. If the boundary is pushed ( expect that) then you have to hold firm. If you don't, it becomes meaningless and you teach her that you will cave. So best to only start with what you can uphold.

[15years]

From my experience, if you literally present your boundaries as boundaries she will feel like you're portraying her as the persecutor and yourself as the victim. It would presumably be hard for her to accept that. Additionally, it's not the most effective way for you either because you are relying on her to change (for her to be the rescuer, am I getting this right notwendy?).

Better to just insert boundaries in your own pace and not involve her in figuring out how you are going to succeed with your boundaries.

Full disclosure, I have basically the same list as you and have not succeeded well in any boundaries yet.   And I guess the list could be much longer for both you and me? But like notwendy says, we can't do more than we can manage, it really is emotionally exhausting. At the same time if we succeed with a boundary it gives energy both in the form of practical change and self esteem.

Messaging at work, that can be insane at times, she can write up to 100 messages, nowadays I put down the phone and continue working, I write a few short answers during the day, I don't engage in arguing. I'm not taking much of it personally and she's usually more relaxed in the evening because she has released her aggression (don't know if that is a good thing). It does tire me and makes me anxious though and I don't work at full capacity.

[Notwendy]

I agree, they often feel like the victim, but we can't change how someone else thinks. This is why presenting it as "I" rather than "you" is less problematic, but still can't change victim perspective.

You don't have to call it a boundary. It can sound like something you need to do without ever mentioning them.

"I need to focus on my work so I will check my phone at lunchtime". Then, don't check your phone until lunchtime.

"I am too tired to give this full attention tonight, and so I will discuss this tomorrow evening".

And yes, only do what you are able to uphold. Saying you will do something and not being able to follow through is worse than not saying it at all, because it makes the "boundary" weaker.

Sometimes it's best to not say anything at all. Upholding a boundary is actions, not words. But for something like not answering me, it's messages it is best  to say something like "I will be in meetings all morning and will check messages at noon" so there is an expected time.

If you can't make it until noon, then say 11. Just start where you are able to.

I know it's a challenge. There can be an extinction burst where they push/test the boundary. Do what you know you can do.

[Notwendy]

looks like some typos here- meant to say

But for something like not answering messages it is best  to say something like

This avoids being felt as "you will not ever answer them" if you don't set a time when you will answer them.

[thankful person]

Hi first steps,

I personally found it easier not to discuss the boundaries at all, but rather just made changes…  until the point where my wife questioned things, then I did SET (support, empathy, truth) statements, then stated that I would leave the room to do something else if she didn’t calm down (if necessary). It took much trial and error to get to this point.

My wife’s behaviour and treatment of me has improved so much. And it’s not because she has gone to therapy or chosen to improve herself. It has been purely in response to me making changes. When I came upon this forum, I already knew that my wife would never realise that she was treating me poorly and choose to change. I thought I was doomed to hell for the rest of my life.

You see, my diagnosed bpd wife had already attended part of the dbt course, before we were officially a couple. She was severely self harming and bulimic. Her story is that in dbt she learnt mindfulness, which helped her to beat her self harming and eating disorder. She also learnt “radical acceptance” and “it is what it is”.

To be honest, I have not looked into exactly what else she may have learned, either during her time in therapy, or had she stayed the course. Is there a chapter called, “You have bpd, which means you will be manipulative and controlling and treat your most loved ones (mostly partner and children) like sh1t, but you won’t realise it. Here’s how not to…” Anyone?

Anyway, I really don’t think she learnt anything of the sort. My wife considers herself cured from bpd, so I have never seen any point in raising my concerns with her, particularly as this would be immensely upsetting for her (and she would totally deny it).

So it was hugely empowering for me to learn that I could make changes to my life, without her agreement that changes needed to happen. It sounds like you are doing great with the changes you have made. Just be aware that even if your wife did agree to therapy, she may well come out of it still believing that you’re in the wrong and you’re the enemy. This was how my wife always treated me, despite having gone through therapy. My setting boundaries, looking after myself better, breaking many of the rules she has set, and stopping the JADEing has improved things immensely. Her words and behaviour don’t upset me as much and most of the time she doesn’t even bother with paranoid, jealous thoughts etc. By my trying so desperately to achieve these crazy standards she set me, it seems it was literally making her more insecure and insane.

[FirstSteps]

thankfulperson - thanks so much for this.  there are a lot of parallels to my situation.  My wife recently admitted she had been diagnosed with BPD in her 20s but rejected it (and she still rejects it).  She is very committed to therapy and groups but it's all on her own terms and with how she defines her issues.  She even just told me about "radical acceptance" this week!  And it helps her too - just not so much with how she relates to me.

Love the missing chapter too!  Hilarious but also puts it into perspective (yet again) that all the changes have to come from me.

And I think this part may be particularly true for me:  "By my trying so desperately to achieve these crazy standards she set me, it seems it was literally making her more insecure and insane."

I'm going away this weekend camping with my son, which is very much breaking a rule.  As was the fact that I agreed to be the scorekeeper for my son's baseball team, which means I'm less available during games.  

I'm also starting to see changes too from my recent efforts.  I think there is a chance that's she actually is "light" on BPD with a bunch of other behaviors also contributing to recent chaos.  We keep having new and very aware discussions of how to bridge during and after conflicts, what I need, etc.  Now, this is being mirrored by ever more dramatic and chaotic lows - and they are so chaotic that we may not survive as a family if there is even one more.  

So my expectations are tempered.  But great to just keep telling myself that I can create my own change.  This whole process is really highlighting my own lack of boundaries, caretaking, and self-defeating patterns so I'm hoping it's all worth it, no matter how the relationship ultimately goes.

[thankful person]

First steps, glad my thoughts helped! I hope you have a great camping trip with your son and enjoy having more involvement. My wife is so possessive over our young babies (we are a lesbian couple and she is their birth mother). I hope as they grow up this will change. Last week I saw my mother with the oldest child while my wife was out with the little one. That was a big step and actually my wife’s suggestion. She knows I’m pushing more for these things so sometimes suggests them. I just accepted a Facebook friend request from a person I’ve never met. Now that is how I met my wife when I was with my ex. Hence kind of why it’s forbidden. This was just another music teacher. It’s not that I want to be her friend particularly, I just wanted to break another rule of my relationship because I like to challenge myself these days. The rules are different for my wife of course, who has many random mum friends who she’s never met on Facebook. I noticed how I’m not even anxious about facing this one. I won’t back down. I don’t know if she’s noticed that I’ve changed. But because she responds to me differently these days, she may not even mention it.

[kells76]

Lots of good thoughts and processing on this thread.

This stood out to me:

I'm also starting to see changes too from my recent efforts.  I think there is a chance that's she actually is "light" on BPD with a bunch of other behaviors also contributing to recent chaos.  We keep having new and very aware discussions of how to bridge during and after conflicts, what I need, etc.  Now, this is being mirrored by ever more dramatic and chaotic lows - and they are so chaotic that we may not survive as a family if there is even one more.  

So whatever the "mechanism" or "connection" is, would you say that there might be a correlation recently between "more better discussions" and "more intense lows"? Like, "somehow", the more you guys have these great, in-depth, self-aware conversations, at the same time the more dysregulations she has, at a more chaotic level?

As you're here on Bettering, and you're concerned that her dysregulations are getting to a "can't go back from this" level...

and, as I'm wondering if these "good discussions" are like water in the desert for you -- you DO want to have them, you DO care about her, you DO want to talk about things with her...

I wonder if it's a case of (and I can't think of a better way to say this, so it's more "metaphorical" than "literal") too much too soon?

Maybe she hasn't had time yet to build some skills to handle however she feels after these healthier discussions?

These discussions sound like a step in the right direction. Yet if she decompensates afterwards at a commensurate but opposite level... was it breaking even, or maybe a net loss?

I'm certainly not suggesting NOT to talk through things with her. More tossing this idea out there:

If the "very aware discussions" are currently at an intensity level of 8 or 9 -- even though it's positive -- I wonder what would happen if you did your part in those discussions to keep them at a 6-7 instead (or lower?).

I say this because you guys didn't get here overnight. It's been a long road for you and your marriage. You're here now and gaining all these tools and skills, and you want to make things better -- we see you working hard. So what if you were able to "tap the brakes" just a little, and then observe over time if there's any correlating change in the intensity of her dysregulations?

It might take months+ of having "good but lower intensity discussions" to rebuild a foundation for you guys where instead of her coping with getting emotionally flooded by decompensating, she copes with the emotional flood in a "less worse" way.

Nutshell: wondering if you're open to decreasing the intensity of the good convos, and observing if there's any change in her lows.

Thoughts?

kells76

Edited to add:

I guess I'm thinking of how 10+10+10 = 30 but also 5+5+5+5+5+5 also = 30. You get to 30 either way, it just takes a little longer the second way, and some people can handle a bunch of 5's better than they can handle a few 10's.

[thankful person]

Kells, I get what you mean. With my wife I felt very impatient as I longed to change everything at once… but I knew that it would upset her for example if I dressed our child in a dress my mother bought, without asking her “permission”. So with each little thing I recognised, “this will be hard for her to process and accept so I’m going to leave it a few days before I upset the apple cart once more and video call my parents” for example, or whatever the next challenge was… It’s been a slow and steady journey which continues, but has certainly got easier. My heart used to beat out of my chest with anxiety if I accepted a friend on Facebook. I didn’t notice anything like this today.

[Notwendy]

“this will be hard for her to process and accept so I’m going to leave it a few days before I upset the apple cart once more and video call my parents”

And this could also be stated as- it will be hard for me to handle my own feelings when she gets upset, so I am going to go at the pace I am able to manage to maintain the boundary.

Yes, as Kells said- two people don't get into this pattern overnight. It may take some time to adjust to and make changes. Kind of like changing a diet - " I won't ever eat sweets again" is not likely to work as well as " I will cut out snacks after dinner. And then later " I will have fruit for a snack instead of cookies" and so on. We are able to manage small stepwise changes ( and also any backstepping - which can happen) better than big ones.

[thankful person]

“And this could also be stated as- it will be hard for me to handle my own feelings when she gets upset, so I am going to go at the pace I am able to manage to maintain the boundary.”

Yes not Wendy, absolutely right. When I discovered what a mess I had got myself into with the balance of my relationship, I realised the freedom that I could change things and did feel very impatient. Around this time, I also learnt from you guys to talk more kindly to myself, to encourage myself and be proud of my achievements. So I would tell myself, “it’s ok. Putting the dress on the child was an amazing achievement…” And I would set more goals for a certain day. But then if I felt tired or weak that day, or if my wife was in pain, struggling with the children, had a row with her sister or whatever, then I would put the goal off further. It was a slow steady process as they say and certainly included backwards steps too.

[Skip]

Good advice here!

Just as a point of perspective, having healthy boundaries is a life skill... it's not a list, a discussion, a demand, or a weekend activity.

If you haven't had good boundaries for 16 years, it will take discipline and consistency to bring them into your relationship, systematically - it you want real change.

This article should help. One interesting point in the article is the importance of collaboration and building buy-in - which I think is at tye heart of several of your questions.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

[FirstSteps]

This is amazing advice - thanks to all!  Definitely bookmarking this thread

Kells - I think you are very right.  That the speed of my changes and then the sudden turn into positive discussions has been mirrored almost exactly by equal disastrous interactions.

As to the timing, this is a real problem that I only had my light bulb moments about my wife and our relationship after the whole family was in real crisis due to a cascade of things from the pandemic (and all that has involved) to hormonal changes to the kids getting older to other long-term stresses (we live in an area of the country with a now horrible fire season, for example).  

I've been so committed for so long and working so hard.  And now there is a part of me that just isn't sure I can take it for such a long and uncertain process.  The relationship has gotten verbally abusive in the last couple years (it wasn't before) and so on.  My kids are super affected by her (though that has calmed down thanks partially to my new approach).  

But this is my person, right?  She's been I wonderful in so many ways for so long.  And I'm still in love with her.  But there is part of me that just resists - that suddenly feels all those "minor" BPD-type episodes over the years building up and then the catastrophes of the past couple years.  And that is not going to be a helpful side in this work.

I am here on the "bettering" board too because I want to be better.  I own 100% that I've been an equal partner on this journey, and I do want to both learn better life skills for myself but also for my kids and my wife.  And I do still have part of me that would love to make it work with her - even if it's not the emotionally equal relationship I wanted.  I can process that, I think.

[15years]

You don't have to answer this but was the camping trip successful? How did it feel for you? How did your wife handle it? Was your son happy about this adventure?

I'm interested in slowly starting to break rules like this myself, I'm super bored by the prospect of never doing anything fun outside the home without her, to the point where going to work has started to make me feel super excited. Camping with my sons would be an exciting adventure a few years from now, right now it would feel like an adventure to visit relatives, just me and the kids.

[formflier]

I would also encourage you to set boundaries by being proactive and what you want to happen.

Let's take "no late night intense talks".

There is also a related boundary or best practice that would suggest that you "think through" what you want to say prior to a "relationship talk" (vice a reactive stream of words).

So...

"Hey babe...this week I was thinking we could have "us time" on Tuesday during lunch and then Saturday during brunch.  We can enjoy each other and check in on our relationship."

So...you've set the time (not at night)...you have set the number per week 2 and hopefully you can present this in a positive way.

Then when she starts to harangue you at night about the horrors of you...a very neutral and validating response might be  "I hear you...this seems really important.  I'll think about what you have said and we can discuss more when we check in on our relationship."

Notice there was no rejection...no hint that she did anything "wrong"..etc etc.

Full disclosure:  FFw is super sensitive to criticism...goes right to her "core wound".  So my "input" to the relationship is to "bubble wrap" that and try to be wise about my words.

I say this because maybe your wife is more ok with it.  Trial and error!

Best,

FF

[grootyoda]

And how far do people go?  I've read in the "success stories" thread about people demanding DBT and so on.  She's on this kick that she will restart anti-depressants "for me" now.  The thing is - I don't think they're going to do all that much.  Can't hurt, as she's depressed.  But I more want her to go to DBT, work through a High Conflict relationship book, get a doctor she actually talks to, stop acting as her own psychiatrist, and so on.

I feel all of that bigtime. I have often tried to get my pwBPD to work through books, focus on XYZ with her therapist, watch a video series on parenting skills, etc. Usually it's been in response to her soliciting advice on what to do, but ultimately what ends up happening is the following:

1) pwBPD starts the work and asks me to hold her accountable
2) pwBPD loses interest in the work
3) I check in per the accountability request
4) Eventually she gets very irritated about it and we're in the parent-child dynamic all over again

I don't have a great solution for that either other than to let go of the idea that I can do anything that will lead to a sustained change in my partner. I can suggest books, apps, videos, etc., but that's about as far my input probably needs to go. Anyway, just wanted to let you know I feel your pain on this.

[FirstSteps]

formflier - that's a good reminder.  I think one reason we worked for so many years is that we did this.  We had alone time built into my work week (I have worked remotely for years and with flexible hours) and so on.  This came at a real cost, of course.  But it also at least muted some of the explosive times.  The pandemic just blew all that up.  Maybe now we can get it back - plus I have new skills

15years - the camping trip was a success.  Super happy I did it.  It's been uneven in the past - I have definitely been able to take the kids out alone, like all the time.  I've been the primary parent with a lot of control within the day.  

But when it comes to bigger trips, I've also flown home early from (very rare) business trips in Europe and Las Vegas due to crises.  And I've never taken the kids away overnight by myself before - like ever.  This camping trip even had huge challenges - I got rear ended on the way out of town, which freaked her out.  If my son hadn't been in the other car, she might have insisted we return.  

Then we didn't have cell coverage at the campsite, which was a huge issue.  So I drove miles to make a call and then when my son's phone got one bar of coverage, I confiscated it and used it all weekend.  I was definitely that guy always looking at the phone and walking off making random calls.  I hate being that guy.  But we were still away, and all went well at home (it was complicated because my daughter was out late getting driven home by other teens for the first time - and my wife doesn't drive).

It was great for my kid and for me.  I was even able to make the call to come back home early all on my own after a wind storm kicked up and a huge branch fell 6 feet from my son.  It was such a relief to make the decision with the other dad at my own speed.

Things also better at home, I think, because we were away.