Here we go again… What to do?

[Mr. Kelly]

Hi all… I’m back again… What a surprise.

I got roughly 6 weeks of reconciliation with my girlfriend, and the split has happened all over again. Just like last time, I am left wondering… When or should I reach out to this girl?

Some of you may remember me from about a month and a half ago when I was in almost the exact same predicament. Here’s my long winded recount of what’s been going on this time around.

Nutshell background:  we’ve dated for two years, the usual patterns of push pull… she has broken up with me about 10 times, usually at about the 6 to 8 week mark.  Usually it’s the result of stuff she has concocted in her head that defies reality.

I should preface this venting by conveying that my partner started a new job about a month ago, and is literally working double the amount of time, with her old job and her new job in tandem, and has been stressed out to the max. I suspect that this in no small part is related to her split, so that is important to know.

Last time I was on here, we had been broken up for a month, which was the longest so far. When we reconciled, we talked for hours about what had happened to create the break up, and her the main reason was that she felt I was not including her in my family decisions as if I was going to be there for her future. 

I did what I could to validate her concerns, and made a pact with her to try to be much better at making her feel like she was part of my future and family. I really don’t think I did that badly prior to her breaking up, but there would be no telling her that. She believes what she believes and she thinks what she thinks.

So, the first bunch of weeks of reconciliation were great. We connected well and we did well. I felt very positive.

Almost according to script, things started to go downhill after about a month. It started with a late night talk after we had been intimate, and I felt I needed to try to go back and unravel some of the hurt that I had felt from her previous break ups, so I tried to tell her that I was very hurt by many of the things that she had said previously when she broke up with me, and hoped that she could understand how I would still be harboring some insecurity regarding those break ups.  I wasn’t accusatory at all, I was just encouraging her to understand that I had to process some of those things and try to let them go in order to feel completely secure in our relationship, and perhaps she could help by understanding my pain regarding those break ups. I thought I was fairly gentle and encouraging with the conversation.

No surprise… She was not able to relate to what I was saying, and still validated the terrible things that she said upon break up, most of which were mean and nasty and had little basis of reality, but were valid to her.

She immediately went on the defensive and started to say that I was invalidating everything that she had said during that reconciliation conversation that she was concerned about.  I’m not really sure how she drew that connection, but I reassured her that I was not trying to do that, but I am not convinced I was getting through.

She concluded the conversation that night by saying, “I decided to give this another chance because I love you, and because we agreed we were going to put the past behind us, and just take one step forward at a time“.

I thought that was a reasonable strategy, and I let it go. However, I couldn’t help but wonder if that conversation was going to leave seeds in her head that would lead to another round of self destruct.  I think I may have been right.

Over the next few weeks, I noticed things starting to go downhill.  We sat at a dinner table with friends and she started to bring up politics and pandemic, both of which have been problematic conversations with us in the past, and I tried very hard to steer clear of anything that would be very divisive, but I also attempted to be who I am, and gently conveyed my opinion in subtle ways on the topics. Even so, I think I rubbed her the wrong way, just by means of me presenting discussion, if even subtly, that may have seemed contradictory to what she was saying. However, that night ended on a relatively positive note.

Over the next 10 days, things were often sticky. I had one situation where a family friend who has a daughter older than me texted me out of the blue, after not seeing her for 40 years, and asked me if she could travel to my city to see a concert and whether I would like to go. My girlfriend and I discuss that at length, and I told her that I was never interested in this girl and never would be, plus the girl dates other girls… And even my mother said to my girlfriend that this family friend was a class act and would in no way be a threat. So my girlfriend and I talked about that at length, and she encouraged me to do whatever I felt I wanted to do to be friendly and a good person.  That seemed to be the end of that situation. It never came up again.

So, I started to notice my girlfriend being inconsistent over the next 10 days. There was a couple of times that she called me, but then was interrupted, and said she would call me back a little bit later, and then never did. That was starting to get hurtful. It happened more than once.

The biggest problem happened last weekend, when she had made plans to come over late after work one night, but then change that plan at relatively last minute and decided she could come over the next night instead, When she got out of work earlier. That seemed to make sense, even though she had come over at that time a few weeks earlier and it was just fine.  I told her it would be fine for me, and I would enjoy having her over, if even for a short time, since she had to work relatively early in the morning.  But then That call was interrupted, as well, and she said she would call me back later and then she didn’t, which was upsetting.  She has not known to ever do that.

So, the next day she was supposed to come over after work, She didn’t call me on her way to work as she had been doing for the three weeks prior, I didn’t text her during the day to confirm. I figured that it was her that didn’t get back to me the night before when she said she would, so I would wait to hear from her. I also didn’t wanna make her feel pressure to come over, because her work has been deadly, and she has been saying over and over that she’s really stretched out and unhappy with what’s happening at work, so I figured if she didn’t call me back the night before, and she didn’t call me on the way to work like she always does, then she is likely stressed out and doesn’t wanna talk, so I didn’t reach out to her to ask her her plan for that night.

So the time came and went that she was expecting to come over to the house and I didn’t hear from her, nor did I reach out to her.  I was kind of hurt.   So, I called her at 10 PM that night and ask how she is doing, and it turns out that she is pissed, and says that she didn’t come over because I didn’t reach out to her to confirm. When I explain to her why I did not do that, and also point out that she also completely did not reach out to me to confirm and that it was a 50-50 communication debacle, she wanted no part of that admission. It was all my fault.

Thankfully, I was able to redirect the conversation later and asked her to just move on from that, and we had a nice conversation after that. So all seemed to end well.

The final time I saw her, the next day, I got together with her and my daughter to go to lunch, and it seemed to go OK.  Her and I went out for a solo walk afterward, and it seemed OK. She had that day off and the next day off, so we made a plan to check in later to see if maybe she would come down that night. She ended up texting me later that her best friend, who had just lost her husband a month ago, invited her out for wine, and she told me she would text me or call me later on to see if we were still around, but not to wait for her if we wanted to do something else. She never got back to me that night, which was again hurtful.

The next day, this past Tuesday, she called me in the morning, which was nice, and we had a nice talk… And we started to make plans for her to come over that night. I can’t figure out for the life of me what happened after that… Later that afternoon, she texted me that she was going to go out for a wine with her hairdresser who invited her out, and she would call me later and make a plan. She never did. That’s the last time I heard from her.  It’s completely mind-boggling. She’s gone completely silent.

I tried to call her twice after that, once that night, and once the next morning, and no response, or no text to even indicate that she call me later like she normally would. It’s very unlike her.  Well, maybe it’s not. But, she’s never ghosted quite like this since I’ve known her.

The only specific thing that I think could have gotten under her skin is that she was complaining about her work in the last minutes of our last call together. I was trying to support her, and encourage her to consider options, but there may have been one thing that could have pissed her off. One of the last things I said to her was that if she talks to her supervisor at work, to try to remain really positive in the conversation and not sound angry or hostile, because it may not end up proactively.  I even prefaced saying that by telling her that I didn’t want her to think that I was preaching to her, or condescending to her, but if it were me, this is what I would say to my boss… Well, she didn’t seem too eager to engage in that conversation and just responded by saying, in a fairly curt way, “Well, I’m always very professional in those kinds of scenarios…”. She sounded a little annoyed by my line of suggestion.

That was the last I heard from her.  Now, there is no way in the world I can tell if any one or maybe all of those situations led her to crash.

Once again, I’m just left wondering… Do I reach out to her again? It’s been three days, and she knows I tried to contact her twice. I even wonder why I would want to reach out to her after this kind of thing.

In many ways, the last six weeks have probably shown the most stability in different areas. Why the crash now, it’s hard to say.  I just don’t think she feels she has the energy to deal with the emotion that she’s feeling with me, and that was definitely evident when I spoke with her after we didn’t connect about her coming over that night. She sounded more pissed than anything. But maybe she felt like I was abandoning her? Who knows.

So what’s the point of this long winded ramble? I just don’t know what to do about all of this. I don’t know what I did, or what she’s upset about. I know nothing.

What would you do under such circumstances?  At least from my perspective, things have gone fairly well for the first month of this incarnation.

What the heck should I do?

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[tvda]

I'm going to be blunt... I think you've been moving the goalposts and your boundaries along quite a bit...

You seem to be convincing yourself that things are become more and more stable... But I'm sorry to say that I feel you are deluding yourself... The 'temporary calm' may have seemed stable. But the pushing away feels equally intense from what I read. And most of all: the whole push-pull cycle you describe is totally unstable.

Are you living according to your own boundaries? For the past months or years? It sounds like you are not, far from it. You are adapting to her dysfunctional way of dealing with things. Probably in an attempt to save the relationship or keep it going... Is that really what you want? A relationship where you constantly walk on eggshells and your needs are not met?

I know where you're coming from and understand it so well... I just didn't want to lose her. So I placated her and let go of all healthy boundaries. It was either that or losing her. In my case, it was abuse, highly manipulative and a game you can only lose... Sorry for the tough love...

[Mr. Kelly]

I'm going to be blunt... I think you've been moving the goalposts and your boundaries along quite a bit...

You seem to be convincing yourself that things are become more and more stable... But I'm sorry to say that I feel you are deluding yourself... The 'temporary calm' may have seemed stable. But the pushing away feels equally intense from what I read. And most of all: the whole push-pull cycle you describe is totally unstable.

Are you living according to your own boundaries? For the past months or years? It sounds like you are not, far from it. You are adapting to her dysfunctional way of dealing with things. Probably in an attempt to save the relationship or keep it going... Is that really what you want? A relationship where you constantly walk on eggshells and your needs are not met?

I know where you're coming from and understand it so well... I just didn't want to lose her. So I placated her and let go of all healthy boundaries. It was either that or losing her. In my case, it was abuse, highly manipulative and a game you can only lose... Sorry for the tough love...

I completely hear where you are coming from… And I constantly wonder if the battle I am fighting will ever end with a war that has a victorious outcome.

Like most of us, I guess, this girl can be awesome when she is stable. But her emotional dysregulation is triggered so quickly and seemingly randomly that I can’t make heads or tails of it.

Maybe I am just an illusion to her, and when it has been proven time and time again that I’m just a regular human being that is likely going to let her down, she crashes and discards me. Then, when she notices my lack of presence, and how hurt she feels after I am gone, she then has to pick up the pieces again. When does it end? Ever?

I guess I am just thinking… “What if…“

When her and I do well, it’s great. Then she just implodes, so it seems. In her brain, she will likely have all these reasons that I have let her down, and that it is her that has been doing all the work to keep us going. It’s complete rubbish. But that’s her reality, and when she gets down on herself like this, the only thing I think she thinks she can do is bail out.  Maybe that’s all she can do.

I am not at all young. Neither is she. We both constantly comment how we don’t have time to waste, and how we don’t want to sweat the little stuff. I’m running out of time to start over, and I don’t attract partners easily. I’m not saying that I am settling for her, but in some ways that is true. I absolutely love her, when she’s stable. My therapist says I have to be able to be OK with all of her, and I have even told her recently that I am perfectly OK if she is not here, it’s my fear that when she is not here, like now, that there is some reason she’s not telling me about that is preventing her from being present. I had that conversation with her two days before she disappeared.  I wonder if I was penetrating that shield of inner secrecy a little too much with those conversations.

I suspect she is just feeling way too much pressure, between her jobs which are stressful and traumatic, and me, who she feels pressure from, even if inadvertently… I think she has just imploded. But I have no real way to know, and that’s part of the tough situation I feel I’m in.

If all goes according to history, I will get a really nasty break up letter within the next bunch of days, telling me how she has been thinking about this for a long time, and that because of all the things I have done to her, that she’s just not interested anymore, and it’s final this time. I’ve read that over and over. I’ve been called a narcissist repeatedly… A liar… Someone who is all talk but no action… And that she’s just a tool that I use to fill the void in my pathetic empty life.

The conversation I had with her in the wee hours a few weeks ago I was trying to get her to understand how damaging and hurtful those words could be, and that I was trying hard to get past those words, but it might take some time and some understanding from her to help me do that. I don’t think she wanted any part of that conversation. I thought we were in a stable enough place, and we seemed to be in a great spot, so I hoped that she would not be vulnerable enough to hear those words as being anything other than honest and cathartic, And a way to move forward beyond them. I’m not sure that was even nearly the case, though.

So, I get what you are saying. Is this all worth it? That’s a very loaded question, and one with multiple answers, depending on where in the cycle we are in.

And so it goes… My head keeps swinging back-and-forth, almost borderline onto itself.

So, hypothetically, if I wanted to try to reestablish contact, for whatever masochistic reasons, what would be your suggestion? Go no contact, like I’ve done each and every time before, and let her come back to me in anger, like she’s done every time before, or reach out myself this time around and ask her how she is doing? I can’t wrap my head around either one of those choices.

Then there is the third choice… Let it go, once and for all.

[Mr. Kelly]

You seem to be convincing yourself that things are become more and more stable... But I'm sorry to say that I feel you are deluding yourself... The 'temporary calm' may have seemed stable. But the pushing away feels equally intense from what I read.

I thought a bit about what you wrote.

Well, the push pull is not all that we are.  We have some really important things in common, and that’s why partners try to work hard to understand what happens to borderlines in such circumstances, and how to get better at not contributing to it.

I think I was probably better at not feeding into her borderline characteristics this time around than I ever was. I think I displayed an independence and strength of character that is may be a little intimidating for her. I think she may interpret it the wrong way.

I don’t think I really did anything “wrong“ this time around, even though I think she is disengaged because she is disappointed with something I said or did.  What that is, I could only speculate.

Tomorrow will be day four after she broke a date and hasn’t responded to calls from that night and the next morning.  I may send her a text tomorrow that says something like this… “Hope you are doing OK. Not exactly sure what may have happened that has brought you to feel that you’ve needed to disconnect. If you want to talk, I am available.“.

My good friend thinks that reaching out to her will enable her continued bad behavior. Online resources seem to indicate that borderlines can’t help when they split like this, and it may be important to reach out and let her know that I am still here and I’m not completely gone.

Thoughts?

[formflier]

So...it's good to keep an eye on her emotional state and how that affects your relationship.

It's even better to keep an eye on your own emotional state an how that contributes to the relationship.

What is different about YOU during this breakup?

My good friend thinks that reaching out to her will enable her continued bad behavior. Online resources seem to indicate that borderlines can’t help when they split like this, and it may be important to reach out and let her know that I am still here and I’m not completely gone.

What if you allowed her to be an adult?  If she wants to know what's going on with you..she can reach out.

Look at it another way.

Perhaps she realizes she can't communicate in a healthy way right now.  In an odd way, not communicating in that situation is a good choice for her.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

It's even better to keep an eye on your own emotional state an how that contributes to the relationship.

What is different about YOU during this breakup?

What if you allowed her to be an adult?  If she wants to know what's going on with you..she can reach out.

Look at it another way.

Perhaps she realizes she can't communicate in a healthy way right now.  In an odd way, not communicating in that situation is a good choice for her.

Best,

FF

Hi formflyer… Thanks for your input, as usual.

In many ways, maybe I was too thoughtful over the last couple of weeks. I tried very hard to do exactly what she had said at our last reconciliation… Which was to make her feel like a greater part of the decision making process in my house and family.

I have been including her in the decisions of household purchases, brought her to a family event that celebrated my daughter, and things seem to be going fairly well. Maybe too well.

It’s possible she thought I was not being genuine when I was doing a lot of that stuff… Then, when we mixed up our communication, and neither of us texted each other, and she went home from work rather than to my house because of it, she was nasty, and blamed it 100% on me.

I tried to be very casual about it, and I told her that I knew she was very stressed out at work and I told her that I didn’t want her to feel pressure coming over, so I was waiting to hear from her, and then I never did hear from her. She went straight home.

I don’t know if these things seemed suspicious to her… More than once we talked about her not coming over that night. More than once I told her I was just trying to give her space in case she needed it because of her new job. She seemed rather perturbed that I would think that she needed space, even though she had rearranged plans from the night before, because she was expecting to be too tired and stressed out to come over at 11 PM, after work, even though she had done in a couple of weeks earlier not too long after we reconciled.

So, I was sensing that she was starting to go a bit downhill… And I just thought I would chill and be easy, and often silly. It seem to be going OK. Until it wasn’t.

It really went downhill fast, and within the last couple of days. Two nights in a row she found something else to do rather than coming over, as she had already planned that she would… And two days in a row I was texting her less during the day, because I was feeling something was changing, and I wanted to give her space to contact me when she was ready. Well, within a couple days she wasn’t contacting me at all. I have no idea why.

So, I don’t know what I have done differently this time around during the break up… It’s been pretty much the same as the other times, except this time there was no formal break up. She’s just ghosted for the last five days. I called her twice, the last night I spoke to her on the phone, and then the next morning, and she never returned my calls. She’s never ever done that before.

Well, I don’t know what more to say. It’s really a matter of choosing between reaching out and offering her a lifeline, with a gentle “I’m thinking about you and I hope you’re doing OK. Call me if and when you’re ready“, or just allowing her the space to reach out to me when she’s ready.

My hesitation in not reaching out to her is that when she eventually reached out to me during previous break ups, she was often pissed, and conveyed that she couldn’t understand why I hadn’t reached out to her… To which I replied… “If you break up with me or don’t respond, I’m not going to chase you.”  In a typical borderline way, she said something like… “Well, how come it is me that always hast to do the work to get us back together?”

I almost wonder if these break ups are deliberately passive aggressive… Or whether they are subconscious ways for her to steal mental space so she can figure things out. Why it turned out nasty each and every time before, with terrible break up letters, I will never know.

So, I almost feel that if I reach out to her that I am conceding power to her… Which I personally won’t allow for myself, but she may feel she can try to take it, which may make matters worse.

But if I try to wait for her to reach out to me, it may be the straw that breaks the camels back for her, and she may flip out for good, who knows.

What’s different this time around is that there wasn’t really an incident that caused all of this to happen when it did. She didn’t indicate she was angry with me, or that I had said something that upset her… There was really no singular event… Truthfully, I think she’s just going through a mental health crisis, and maybe she doesn’t want me to be part of it.  that’s really the best I can think of it.

[Mr. Kelly]

Wow...

Unfriended on Facebook... out of the blue... after letting her be for a week... no word as to why, what I did... why she was upset.  Just ghosted and now unfriended.

What the heck should I do?  Continued no contact?

[once removed]

I got roughly 6 weeks of reconciliation with my girlfriend, and the split has happened all over again. Just like last time, I am left wondering… When or should I reach out to this girl?

why disappear in a time when you likely need it the most?

is getting her back the objective, or is it to build the strongest foundation possible?

the relationship may be salvageable, it may not. but these are challenging relationships, the likes of which youve got to always be sharpening your skills.

furthermore, with every breakup/makeup cycle, the fabric of the relationship deteriorates. that it will be tested, that old patterns/habits will be repeated, is a given. the question is whether you have a new, and very different strategy when and if they do. and make no mistake, that a new strategy will be a test in and of itself.

I really don’t think I did that badly prior to her breaking up, but there would be no telling her that. She believes what she believes and she thinks what she thinks.

maybe you did, and maybe you didnt. i dont think that an attitude of paying her concerns lip service while not taking them especially seriously is a sound strategy.

she believes what she believes and she thinks what she thinks, for sure. and that may mean irreconcilable differences between the two of you, or it may mean meeting in the middle.

Almost according to script, things started to go downhill after about a month. It started with a late night talk after we had been intimate, and I felt I needed to try to go back and unravel some of the hurt that I had felt from her previous break ups, so I tried to tell her that I was very hurt by many of the things that she had said previously when she broke up with me, and hoped that she could understand how I would still be harboring some insecurity regarding those break ups.  I wasn’t accusatory at all, I was just encouraging her to understand that I had to process some of those things and try to let them go in order to feel completely secure in our relationship, and perhaps she could help by understanding my pain regarding those break ups. I thought I was fairly gentle and encouraging with the conversation.

No surprise… She was not able to relate to what I was saying, and still validated the terrible things that she said upon break up, most of which were mean and nasty and had little basis of reality, but were valid to her.

She immediately went on the defensive and started to say that I was invalidating everything that she had said during that reconciliation conversation that she was concerned about.  I’m not really sure how she drew that connection, but I reassured her that I was not trying to do that, but I am not convinced I was getting through.

its because you are largely talking at each other, where there is no foundation of trust.

when you reconcile a relationship, its best to consider the old relationship to be dead, and grieve it as if it were, and have a very different strategy for any new iteration of the relationship.

mind you, im encouraging balance here; you dont easily forget your hurts, and im not telling you to go into things without any acknowledgment of that.

but rest assured, she has those hurts, and that baggage too, and raising yours in that sort of setting, or vice versa, is likely to bump up against that. thats why she responded in kind. the two of you are clashing on old, unresolved conflict and hurt. its "you hurt me", "oh yeah? well you hurt me too!".

it might be simpler to speak in terms of positive reinforcement. to, for example, accentuate the strengths of your relationship, and how multiple breakups have hurt it, share that you think your relationship is above that, and what your vision going forward would be.

Over the next few weeks, I noticed things starting to go downhill.  We sat at a dinner table with friends and she started to bring up politics and pandemic, both of which have been problematic conversations with us in the past, and I tried very hard to steer clear of anything that would be very divisive, but I also attempted to be who I am, and gently conveyed my opinion in subtle ways on the topics. Even so, I think I rubbed her the wrong way, just by means of me presenting discussion, if even subtly, that may have seemed contradictory to what she was saying.

big political gaps are a legitimate difference between two people. its not always the political differences (james carville and mary matalin, two famous political strategists on opposite spectrums are famously married for decades), but how two people deal with them can be a large part of the differences between two people.

she was complaining about her work in the last minutes of our last call together. I was trying to support her, and encourage her to consider options, but there may have been one thing that could have pissed her off. One of the last things I said to her was that if she talks to her supervisor at work, to try to remain really positive in the conversation and not sound angry or hostile, because it may not end up proactively.  I even prefaced saying that by telling her that I didn’t want her to think that I was preaching to her, or condescending to her, but if it were me, this is what I would say to my boss…

unsolicited advice, my friend. it may help to just listen, let her complain, or to straight up ask how you can best support her.

in reading the rest of your post, it sounds, again, like the old hurts, the old distrust, the old conflicts, have resurfaced.

they caused her to distance. a lot of women will tend to do this. generally speaking, men will either chase or be oblivious.

its hard to say how to respond to that. im inclined to say that you should, but probably the most important thing is that you not overreact. its a showy, dramatic move on her part (shes made similar moves before). ignoring it serves neither of you. but show strength and confidence. dont make it a big deal. be prepared for no response. we can help you through it.

[tvda]

As usual I am the blunt voice on this board... I know this is the "bettering" board so I'm trying not to be too negative - with some effort - but... OP, don't you feel like she is treating you really poorly, while you are trying to salvage things, take a positive approach, trying to find the right way to approach and address her... while she is doing of the sort. To put it in other words... do you think a relationship can be saved when one partner tries really hard to save it, and the other partner neglects and damages it?

I really understand where you are coming from. You want to fix things, so salvage things, to get her back. I've been there. Probably still am there in some ways. But she is doing the opposite. And you cannot build or save a relationship by yourself. By definition, both partners need to make this effort for this to work. And even then there is no guarantee. But she is not even doing "the work". Quite the opposite.

You ask what to do and how to deal with this... My two cents worth: she's leaving you no option. She has to do her part. If not, you need to let go...

[Mr. Kelly]

All good replies. Thank you.

Well… Each and every time we have broken up, I have done tons of research to understand BPD and how to validate her concerns, not trigger more episodes, and be there to support her.  I thought I had been doing those things fairly well, although perhaps a little wobbly.  There is only so much negativity and anger I can tolerate before I start to bend a little bit.

I just don’t think she is currently capable, or maybe ever will be capable, of understanding her own needs and being able to be proactive, reflective and successful in this kind of interaction.

She tries really hard. She does. She tries to be good to me in so many decent and loving ways. But when it comes down to it, I think she is incapable of that kind of self reflection… She naturally interprets things in the worst possible way, which is understandable with this kind of condition, and there is almost zero I can do to offset it.  It almost seems the more I try to validate her concerns, maybe the more suspicious she gets?

 I think she feels I criticized her, which wasn’t my intent at all. I would have never known that a simple encouragement regarding her work pursuits would have been interpreted in such a way to completely disconnect. I did try to reach out to her twice after that, but no response. Don’t know how much more I can do other than beg, which I don’t think is useful.

Yes, I think I did put her up against her own trust with my late night gentle conversation about my own issues of trust. I thought we were in a place where she may be able to empathize with what I was feeling, and I thought maybe it would be helpful to open up that a little bit to try to gain a better perspective on how to move forward. It seriously backfired. At least that’s what it seems.

I think the mistake I made was gently trying to encourage her to understand that her break ups and language of hate that she uses during her splits is hurtful to me.  Even when it seemed like she was in the most stable of places, that was a big mistake. I think that was probably the turnaround

I guess I don’t really know if I should move forward. I just don’t think she is capable of being trusting enough to allow herself to be in this kind of relationship without hurting herself continuously. And that hurts me. 

And no, she is not doing any of the internal work. Each and every time, upon reconciliation, she seems to think she can go back to being the exact same way she has always been, and it’s me that has to do the changing. That is almost unchanged and unresolvable. Don’t know what to do with that.

What more can I possibly do that I haven’t already done to invoke change? Each and every time I have gotten better at letting things go, been better prepared to meet in the middle, validated her needs and concerns in a stronger way… But if she isn’t able to internalize these efforts, at least at this point, is there really any hope? This time is roughly 12 times in almost 2 years that she has split, blocked me on social media, but this is the first time she hasn’t actually sent me a nasty note telling me why she’s breaking up. This seems different.  Maybe this is the dreaded final discard?

 

[tvda]

It does seem different, and might be the final discard... I am in exactly the same situation at the exact same time it seems...

It's different because before her breakups would be chaotic, intense and emotionally charged... This time: cold, emotionless and detached. All things point to her having moved on to another guy, in not even a day after professing her love for me.

What more can you do, you ask... What more would you have wanted to do? Reading your last post, it feels like all your work, solutions and approaches have one thing in common: erasing yourself a bit more each time, neglecting your own needs a bit more each time... Where do you think this would have ended?

[formflier]

What more can I possibly do that I haven’t already done to invoke change? 

Hey...not passing judgment on your prior work to change the r/s.  Trying to raise a possibility for you to consider.

As I read your posts I see lots of effort to support her...to communicate with her...to encourage her...it's about her her her her her.  If I only X..then she would Y.

What if you stopped taking ownership of her dysfunction?  There is a thought that BPDs are fearful of being alone..that they actually "want" or "need" you in their life.

So..what if...what if... you made it clear what your standards were for a relationship and then let her do the work (or let her decide not to) to stay with you, instead of you doing all this work to convince her to stay.

Said another way...try to live a healthy life and leave the door open for her, should she choose to walk through that door.

Something to consider, especially if you are feeling like you have "tried everything" and are disappointed in the results.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Tvda,

So, we are almost in the exact same position… Where have you guys left things, at this point? How long has it been since you haven’t communicated, and how long has it been since you were together?

It’s hard to say how much I give up of myself each and every time I give in to one of her rants or raves. I think I can get better at depersonalizing her perspective on things, and using empathy rather than judgment when I don’t necessarily agree with something she says. I have gotten so much better at doing that. The things that are great between her and I far outweigh those differences, I think. I think she has a much harder time coming to the middle than I do, and I think that’s where the problems arise.  

I think that when I make the mistakes of expressing my opinion on sensitive matters, even if I do it in the most validating and gentle ways, I think she just feels that I am too different than she is, and I think it closes doors for her.

I am ultra sensitive, but she is off the charts. I do walk on eggshells because I can never tell if even the slightest thing that I say that may differ from her perspective on something may rub her the wrong way.  Most of the time, especially in the last six weeks, it didn’t seem to bother her if I had a different opinion than she did on something… But I can never tell, because sometimes those differences come out in her splits, and she starts going back and picking at all the things that I may have said that opposed her perspectives, often saying, “you never listen to what I say, and you always disagree with everything like you know everything and I know nothing.“. Those are distorted perspectives, but I fear the wrath coming out in dark times, so I do walk on eggshells.

So, what are you going to do moving forward in your situation?

[Mr. Kelly]

Hey...not passing judgment on your prior work to change the r/s.  Trying to raise a possibility for you to consider.

As I read your posts I see lots of effort to support her...to communicate with her...to encourage her...it's about her her her her her.  If I only X..then she would Y.

What if you stopped taking ownership of her dysfunction?  There is a thought that BPDs are fearful of being alone..that they actually "want" or "need" you in their life.

So..what if...what if... you made it clear what your standards were for a relationship and then let her do the work (or let her decide not to) to stay with you, instead of you doing all this work to convince her to stay.

Said another way...try to live a healthy life and leave the door open for her, should she choose to walk through that door.

Something to consider, especially if you are feeling like you have "tried everything" and are disappointed in the results.

Best,

FF

Excellent thoughts… I really appreciate them…

How would I go about doing that? Is this a form of setting boundaries?

I think she would need to get into therapy to try to understand things, but I don’t think she is anywhere near that. She has often said derogatory things about therapists, and how they are all dysfunctional and only tell you what you want to hear… That kind of thing.

I have never ever suggested that maybe she has taken things that I have said out of context, or has been interpreting things differently… That seems like it’s a form of invalidation, of sorts.

Your suggestion is excellent, but I don’t really know what I would do to enact that.  Thoughts?

[Mr. Kelly]

The more I think about it, the more I think I may have done something just like that about three weeks ago in our late night conversation. I told her that the one thing that I needed from her, that was really important to me, was for her to trust me. I needed to know that she would trust if I told her that I loved her, or that I felt a certain way, or why something has happened.

In some ways, I think I was trying to tell her what I needed from her… Trust. I know that’s a tall issue with a likely BPD, but I was hoping that might open some doors I thought might be helpful moving forward.

I think it may have done the exact opposite.  I think it may have subconsciously made her think I was trying to play her and manipulate her.

[formflier]

Hey...I'm reluctant to provide details at the moment.  There is a "big picture" thing you need to understand and take to heart.

Whatever "strategy" you undertake to deal with a pwBPD is going to take a lot of consistent effort over a long period of time.

I'm not aware of any strategy where you try it once and get the result and you declare it valid for your r/s or not.

So...evaluate the r/s and what has worked/not worked so far.

Make a deliberate choice about the strategy you think is best going forward and then do that for weeks and months (ignoring for the most part the drama of the pwBPD trying to get the "old you" back).  Then check results..make a deliberate adjustment and do that for a few months (wash rinse repeat).

Last:  Any strategy that depends on them (such as if she would only trust me)...is unlikely to succeed.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Thanks, FF. I really appreciate the thoughts.

I just don’t know how to implement such changes…

Thus far, most of the changes I have implemented have been to try to not personalize some of our differences, and I’ve gotten significantly better at doing that… I have also gotten much better at not bringing up topics that are controversial, not trying to validate my own perspective, and trying to really support her significantly without judgment in her times of need.  I think I have done those to the best of my ability, and for the most part, have done them really well. I don’t really know what more I can do.

During her splits, she pretty consistently says that she doesn’t know if she can get back to the trust that she once hadn’t before I broke that trust with several “mis deeds“, which she says she may not be able to get beyond, which were really interactions that were taken way out of context.

So… How to get where I think we may need to go may be almost more up to her than me.

I wish I knew, FF, I wish I knew.

[once removed]

It almost seems the more I try to validate her concerns, maybe the more suspicious she gets?

because this is not necessarily what it means to be validating, and validating is not a catch all for improving a relationship with someone with bpd.

probably the most common (and understandable) mistake i see on this board is that we get it in our heads that we can use magic words to soothe our partners. that is not what is meant by validation, and most of us wouldnt find it very validating to be on the receiving end of.

it is far easier, in my mind, to think in terms of "dont be invalidating". if you are doing that, you are most likely doing the other, naturally.

thats not to tell you to walk on eggshells. our loved ones are highly sensitive, and highly sensitive to perceived slights and criticism. you seem to recognize that its going to happen.

I think the mistake I made was gently trying to encourage her to understand that her break ups and language of hate that she uses during her splits is hurtful to me.  Even when it seemed like she was in the most stable of places, that was a big mistake. I think that was probably the turnaround

there is, more than likely, a way to do this that your loved one would be receptive to. putting it in the context of past breakups, and in the context of how you are harboring insecurity, probably feels to her like its putting her on the defensive. remember, this is in the same context that you are asking her to trust you.

[formflier]

So… How to get where I think we may need to go may be almost more up to her than me.

 

Well..if you leave her "in charge" of the relationship...then this is true.

If you decide to be the leader in the relationship and "lead by example" with healthy behavior...then this will be much less true, although each of you always has a "vote" in the relationship.

Said another way...it appears to me that you have handed your vote to her and are making the r/s dependent on her.

Best,

FF

[tvda]

During her splits, she pretty consistently says that she doesn’t know if she can get back to the trust that she once hadn’t before I broke that trust with several “mis deeds“, which she says she may not be able to get beyond, which were really interactions that were taken way out of context.

Sounds like the classic narcissist trick of reversing the "perpetrator/victim" roles...

[Mr. Kelly]

because this is not necessarily what it means to be validating, and validating is not a catch all for improving a relationship with someone with bpd.

probably the most common (and understandable) mistake i see on this board is that we get it in our heads that we can use magic words to soothe our partners. that is not what is meant by validation, and most of us wouldnt find it very validating to be on the receiving end of.

it is far easier, in my mind, to think in terms of "dont be invalidating". if you are doing that, you are most likely doing the other, naturally.

thats not to tell you to walk on eggshells. our loved ones are highly sensitive, and highly sensitive to perceived slights and criticism. you seem to recognize that its going to happen.

there is, more than likely, a way to do this that your loved one would be receptive to. putting it in the context of past breakups, and in the context of how you are harboring insecurity, probably feels to her like its putting her on the defensive. remember, this is in the same context that you are asking her to trust you.

Good points… What would examples of validating and invalidating look like, if say, we are having a general conversation, and I don’t necessarily agree with what she is saying…

In the last bunch of months, I’ve been trying to stay away from those kinds of topics, but when she brings them up, and she starts to spew stuff… I will often say things like “well, I hear you about that political issue, and what you say may be true, but here’s my perspective on it…“

Or, in the example of the late night conversation, I try to use really gentle language, and suggest that I was only bringing these things up so I could let go of some of that pain and try to move us closer together. I guess maybe I shouldn’t have even brought that topic up? Some have been saying that it makes no sense to try to rehash the past with borderlines.

Or the example of when I was trying to say some positive advice regarding how to handle her boss… My therapist just said that it sounds preachy and might make her feel like she doesn’t know what she’s doing, which is almost what she implied with her follow up statement, “well, I’m always really professional in those situations, just so that you know“, which she said in a snarky way.  I guess I have to just stay out of those conversations, and let her spew it out? This makes me feel like I’m engaged in a one-sided conversation, which seems to happen very frequently when she’s not in a good space, like now..

What other strategies are there?

[Mr. Kelly]

Sounds like the classic narcissist trick of reversing the "perpetrator/victim" roles...

There is no question that she has elements of narcissism blended in there… But mostly when she is splitting like this. I do think that she plays the victim role, and she gets very very hostile and defensive and says “don’t be turning this around on me like you always do”.

That’s not at all what’s happening.

[once removed]

Some have been saying that it makes no sense to try to rehash the past with borderlines.

theres little sense in trying to rehash the past with anyone you are trying to build a new and improved relationship with. its the source of conflict, and the tension you broke up over.

like FF was saying, think big picture. im not telling you to forget about those things or go into this blindly, far from it, but have a vision of the new direction you want to lead the relationship in, and build the environment to do so.

My therapist just said that it sounds preachy and might make her feel like she doesn’t know what she’s doing, which is almost what she implied with her follow up statement, “well, I’m always really professional in those situations, just so that you know“, which she said in a snarky way.  I guess I have to just stay out of those conversations, and let her spew it out?

i am not BPD, and i cant stand unsolicited advice. people tend to give it though, when they arent sure what to say, or when they assume that someone who is venting/complaining to them is looking for advice. weve all done it, its kind of like a nervous habit.

change your habit (it will be uncomfortable at first, possibly for both of you). you know her best, and have a better feel for what will "work" with her. often times, i will straight up ask a person if they want me to listen, or if they want feedback and advice, or i will base my approach on my personal relationship and experience with them.

What would examples of validating and invalidating look like, if say, we are having a general conversation, and I don’t necessarily agree with what she is saying…

this is one of the tricks when it comes to validating. validation is not the same thing as agreement, and you most certainly dont want to "agree" when you dont agree (you dont want to validate the invalid).

validation happens naturally when we take ourselves out of the equation (as much as possible) and put on our listening hat. you have done this before, we all have. the tendency though, when learning about it in this context, is to overthink it, or to use it as a way to try to soothe our partners. to successfully validate someone, it has to be sincere, natural, and you have to use the language that is common to you and your partner. anything else will sound forced and robotic, and your partner will see right through it.

Or, in the example of the late night conversation, I try to use really gentle language, and suggest that I was only bringing these things up so I could let go of some of that pain and try to move us closer together. I guess maybe I shouldn’t have even brought that topic up? Some have been saying that it makes no sense to try to rehash the past with borderlines.

i think this is more an issue of context, than validating or invalidating.

where the two of you are standing is a fragile place. there is distrust on both sides. there isnt really the ability, may not even necessarily be the willingness, to fix the pain and baggage that each of you carry. it may be best to work through these things on a personal level, and here on this board. it needs acknowledgment, for sure, but your partner may not be in the space to do that, generally speaking.

[formflier]

i am not BPD, and i cant stand unsolicited advice. people tend to give it though, when they arent sure what to say, or when they assume that someone who is venting/complaining to them is looking for advice. weve all done it, its kind of like a nervous habit.
 

Boy..this was an area that I had to carefully navigate..and still do sometimes struggle with it.

I love unsolicited advice...with the caveat that it's the start of a conversation.  Oh..I think you should do X...because of Y.

FF will probably say "interesting..I planned on doing Z because to me A is important.  Tell me more about your focus on Y."

What I HATE is people that want to tell you what to do and then refuse any further input or discussion.

So...guess where FFw went when things got bad.  She wanted to "control" me but didn't want to discuss and I would try to "explain" to her that conversations are better (you guys can imagine the rest)

Anyway...now I say something like "Sounds tough...do you want me to give you a hug or do you want me to go into "problem solving mode"?

or sometimes

"Ugg..that's rough."  I go ahead and give a hug or pat or some affection and say something to the effect of "if you want help problem solving..let me know"

I DO NOT give advice to her unless she specifically asks...at first she was a bit huffy but over time things are much more calm about this issue.

There is a big picture to this.  Some people assume that if you are giving the unsolicited advice...that you "don't believe in them" or " don't think they can solve it"..etc etc.  On our side we don't believe that at all...we just want to be helpful.

Do you "see" the other points of view?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

I completely get this perspective…

Are used to be a teacher for many years, because I believed in conveying things in life that I have learned along the way that I think would be valuable to someone else, similar to how they are valuable to me. I love comparing ideologies and advice.

When people offer me advice, I often listen intently and then weigh my options. I try to appreciate it. 

I think me trying to advise my partner, even though she never hesitate to boss me around in that way, I think it makes her feel like I’m condescending her. That’s not the intent at all, but I’d be happy to Convey that to her… Somehow, I think it has triggered something profound than her and turned her off completely.

I love to read inspirational quotes, see online advice, and listen to my therapist. I wouldn’t be getting upset to see the Dalai Lama post something motivational on the Internet and think “what a pretentious snob trying to tell people what to do“. I guess that’s just each persons way in life, though. I do feel like I’m being judged for it, though. I think that’s a BPD or narcissistic characteristic.

I do get it… Borderlines don’t do well with advice. I guess she hadn’t seemed very BPD for the weeks prior to that, so this kind of came out of the blue.

Did I already mentioned that my therapist seem to be thinking I should contact her? She said a lot of what you guys did… Keep it very brief and to the point… “I miss you, would you like to go out for a walk and maybe talk?“.

Part of me wonders why I would want to continue doing this to myself. It almost seems self abusive, but I know that she is much more than this disability.

Thoughts?

[once removed]

Did I already mentioned that my therapist seem to be thinking I should contact her? She said a lot of what you guys did… Keep it very brief and to the point… “I miss you, would you like to go out for a walk and maybe talk?“.

i tend to agree with your therapist.

general advice is not to chase and give space. its been what, a week? and she made this dramatic move. it calls for a response, but not an over reaction.

if its attention that she wants/ed, it puts the ball in her court. it doesnt chase. it doesnt over react, or put your heart on the line. strong and dignified. i just wouldnt do more than that, and she may take her time getting back.

[formflier]

Nothing "wrong" with your suggested wording.

I would tend to stay away from "miss you".

"Hey...saw a new ice cream place opened by the river walk.  My treat! "

Maybe send a link to the place or something.

The key is to place the "ball" in their court with minimum drama..minimum "emotion"...and let them go with it...without you pushing either way.

If you are like "miss you"...maybe you catch her ruminating about you and she is like "miss me your azz..he doesn't miss me...blah blah blah".

Whereas it's really really hard to screw up thinking about ice cream.

Not a right or wrong thing..just my take on it.

Put it out there and then leave it alone for a few weeks..unless there is a response.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

How about:

“Hey there... hope you are doing ok.  Would you like to join me for a morning walk at our usual place, in the next few days?  I’d like that... Let me know, ok? 

[Mr. Kelly]

Actually, now that I think about it… That message almost seems lame… Nothing personal, nothing sentimental… It almost feels like I should say something with a little more substance.  it’s been a week that we have had no contact. She probably hates me for not pestering her, even though I called her twice and she didn’t call me back.

Here’s my fantasy message…

“Hey... it’s been a while… I’ve missed you… I think we should talk, and see if we can figure out what happened and to see if we can come to grips with where we are at.“

That’s more of what I feel like I would want to say, but I’m guessing you guys might think that’s a little too prone to misinterpretation or anxiety?

[formflier]

That works...I wouldn't tell you NOT to send it especially if you have particular knowledge of her that she is responsive to that many words or that particular invitation.

Take it or leave it advice.

It's a lot of words.

The "let me know..ok?" thing at the end..some people may feel controlled by it or she may retort "when have I never let him know".

let me take  a stab at it.

"Been walking at our usual place.  Want to join me?  I'll bring coffee"  (or insert favorite beverage or something like that)

See how the first implies that she has been on your mind?   I like asking the direction question (you had that part dead to rights!)...then toss in a bonus (the coffee).

Now the fishing lure is out there...go on about your life and see if it gets a bite.

Best,

FF