His kids have it: BPD boyfriend's son is self-harming

[Calmcollected]

Something sad, but interesting has happened. I called it 6 months ago, but my BPD boyfriends 17 year old son has started self harming. He didn’t want to talk about it 2 weeks ago. But today he did. I kindly and in a non threatening way talked about what I was sure it was. I talked a little about the causes, that it is in no way his fault. (The mother has been an alcoholic & prescription drug user) absent since his kids were under 4. She is poisonous to them. I explained how it is mainly managed by counselling. He had to have an emergency session this week for the self harm. My boyfriend is extremely high functioning. Despite the fact he hasn’t been diagnosed, I find the tools on this site have changed our relationship dramatically and he has been open to change & seeing my point of view. It is so much healthier than 6 months ago now that I’ve learned validation techniques.
This will be a weird situation because I’m educating him on the symptoms of this disorder and showing him how it’s likely his daughter has it too.
I’m hoping this could be a change for him as well and recognition. Years ago my boyfriend had been diagnosed as bi-polar. With my back ground in mental health and a close family member who did have it, I know its BPD.
I’m hoping this is a turning point for all of them.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pearlsw]

Hi CalmCollected,

Glad to hear the tools here have been of such benefit to you! It's nice to hear about successes.

For anyone else who is interested here's the link: Validation

May I ask which symptoms he has and how you figured out it was not bipolar?

Is the teenager who is self-harming going to get some ongoing counseling for this issue?

I'm in a similar boat. I think a few of his family members have also had mental health issues. In a way, I think it makes him feel less alone about it.

take care, pearl.

[Calmcollected]

My boyfriends are
Tumultuous relationships (married 3 times and 5 kids with 4 different mothers)
 fear of abandonment (I know you’ve found someone else, this is it, I guess you’re leaving) even when there is no problems.
He drank for 5 years about 20 years ago, but stopped
Explosive anger (but this has decreased dramatically in the last year)
Feeling empty (hes told me he always feels like there is a hole inside of him)
Sense of identity can be skewed, he mirrors. He changes his personality to match those around him. When his sons 20 year old friends are around he starts to act like them, when his daughter is around, she is always angry and he becomes angry too. With me, he becomes calmer.
He has black and white thinking and he has painted me and one of his kids black. ( that 34 year old “kid”  is very bad) Lately I have been able to start to get him to see shades of grey in certain situations.
He’s also suspicious of friendships. Always looking for an angle of why people want to be his friend or why they would even like him. Even friends that have been around for 30 years. I have to remind him of the good things they have done for him. He gets hurt if one didn’t wave at him and it becomes a big thing.
His mother left when he was 2 and his father beat the daylights out of him. I’m not sure if he every self harmed, but two of his kids I know have. .

[pearlsw]

Hi CalmCollected 

Thanks, that gives an interesting picture of what's been going on with him.

So, may I ask, which tools aside from Validation have you been using and what changes have you seen? What has made a difference for you two? Have you seen a difference in terms of anger?  What do you do to maintain your own health with this extra emotional work towards him involved?

take care, pearl.

[Calmcollected]

Validation has been the biggest game changer. I tried counselling, after 2 sessions she said I didn’t really need it. That I have a really good handle on things and a healthy way of thinking. I recognized my co dependency issues that were happening and reversed them. I have never been like that in a relationship before.
 In his life I put up boundaries and stepped back from trying to fix everything (his business wise, and focused on my own) he has stepped up to the plate and has taken over. I will step in an help when things are overwhelming (like when he has 3 job sites on the go, but I do let him fail, so he sees the consequences of what happens when something I previously did, is not done. For example over staffing leads to loss of profit.)
He hired back his oldest son who was fired last year. I knew it was a bad decision and so did he. He said that he knew i didnt think it was a good idea. I told him I supported him in whatever decision he made. He put boundaries in place with his son and also showed supprt for me. He told him if he missed a shift he was done. If he pulled any of the crap he pulled with me last year, he was done as well (he was verbally abusive with me, turned new staff against me and would be disrespectful as well. It was a poisonous and stressful environment. At the end of construction season, the people he turned against me apologized because they could finally see the dynamics)
He started last week and he is all ready done. Worked 2 full days, went home early the third and didn’t show up for the rest. Lied for the fourth day where he was and he was seen around town . He’s a 34 year old man who sells drugs. He met a woman who is moving here to be with him. Begged his father for a job because he was going to turn his life around for her. After 2 months of knowing her “she’s the woman he’s going to marry”. He was panicked because she will be here in 3 weeks and I’m guessing she doesn’t know what he really does.
It was a big step for my boyfriend to stand up on my behalf to this son. I validated the hell out of the situation, its always tumultuous with his kids. They make him feel he has to choose me or them. I let him know I won’t do that. That when it comes down to it, they are scared of losing him too. If he puts boundaries regarding me in place, they will resect him more.
His anger is almost non existent. He is recognizing situations for what they are and is thinking them through instead of acting immediately on them. It still pops up, but nothing like three years ago. Its more like crankiness, where before he would rage so hard that afterward he would have a hand tremor from the adrenaline and I would fear a heart attack.
From these boards I have learned the value of giving space and when to give it.
There used to be other women he would talk to for validation and to lift him up. He didn’t meet them, but didn’t let them know about me. He always kept an inactive POF account. Since I have started validating, he closed the account and doesn’t talk to the others anymore. I can let him know when I’m feeling unloved, and he makes an effort to do the things I ask for to make me feel loved.
I feel growth or I wouldnt still be here.

[Calmcollected]

Yesterday By accident I found a bad review on Yelp disparaging me by name for my business. I looked at the name, connections and realized that my BPD boyfriends out of town visiting niece had left it, after spending the day with his daughter who hates me. I went from a high rating to a 2. Online ratings are extremely important in my line of business as it effects website orders. I was devastated. I have gone above and beyond for his daughter. My income carries us thrugh the slow times with his business. By harming me, she harms him too. I went through a range of emotions. Extreme hurt that turned to anger. I brought him along for the ride. I demanded that he deal with it and put up boundaries with his daughter. He agreed to deal with it, but he didnt have to as I had it flagged. It ws the most emotionally draining day, knowing people I have been nothing but good to, tried to destroy me.
On the drive home a light bulb went off. I realized that my boyfriend feels like this on a daily basis. With his kids at him, me, work obligations and running his business, I finally understood.
I called him and let him know what I was thinking and how I finally understood. He seemed relieved and thankful. It was a moment that brought us closer together.

[Radcliff]

Wow, Calmcollected, you seem so, um, calm and collected!  Seriously, I'm impressed with what you've accomplished!  You've focused on your own behaviors, give your bf compassionate support with boundaries, and you're working effectively with him.  When I started reading, I worried that this situation may be extremely difficult due to the fact that you were dealing with your bf's BPD issues and his son's self harming.  I was impressed in reading your post how you and your bf have worked together to handle other tough issues.  I know that doesn't come easy -- it's hard work for both of you.  The big new thing here seems to be his son's self harming.  Have you considered posting over on the son/daughter board to get some feedback from parents who've experienced having a child with self-harming behaviors?

Back to your relationship, it sounds like you've nailed validation and boundaries.  That's huge!  Are there any remaining issues with your relationship that you'd like to see an improvement in?

WW

[Calmcollected]

I am going to go over there and start reading. Once I stopped letting all the behaviours get my own emotions all roiled up, I have a much better handle on things. I think that is one of the good things in this situation as a medical health professional. The ability to step back and see it clinically. Understand the emotions behind the behaviour.
One thing that has worked to calm things faster is when he pushes, thats it, its over, if you can’t stop, change, do this different etc etc. I have the best response that calms him immediately. I say “nice try, but you’re not getting rid of me that easily. I love you and I’m not going anywhere” play punch him in the arm or gut and it gets him laughing. His push aways are much less dramatic, no anger. Its almost like he half heartedly tries. Its more force of hanit more than anything.
The thing that I’d like see happen is us to move in together. Its hard when 3 out of 5 kids hate me. They are used to him being at his beck and call. They use him and when they dont need him, they treat him like garbage. I’d like to learn ways to help him be able to set boundaries with his kids.

[Radcliff]

I'm sorry if I missed it, but I don't think you mentioned anything about DBT with respect to your boyfriend.  Any chance of selling DBT to him as skills training that can help with the super advanced challenge of dealing with difficult kids?  I thought of that when you mentioned you were hoping he could learn boundaries.  If he sees DBT as something he's doing to strengthen his role as a father, not as something to fix him or something to please you, perhaps he'd go for it?

WW

[Calmcollected]

He absolutely refuses counselling of any kind. I bought the book for high conflict couples and he says if I adk him again, he will block me. I have been using them on him, but we took 5 steps backwards. The dynamics changed this morning. Last week I had talked to him about spending more time together. We had set a time last week for just the 2 of us, and again his kids who are adults came first. I got really upset and let him onlw thatI felt unloved and pushed to the back. The next day we were out together for his business and I said I wanted to spend time with him that evening. You could tell he really wanted to make me happy and was upset because he had made a couple of commitments that day. He said he felt backed into a corner trying to make everyone happy. I was encouraged because I could see he didnt want to disappoint me. Yesterday I said we would make plans today. When I called this morning to see what we were going to do, everything was my fault for called the police when I received a threatening text at the beginning of the year. It was his daughter. “If I had not done that, we wouldnt have any problems.” He said he’s going to sell everything and just move away.  His kids are making him choose between them and me. He of course will choose them. They use him and treat him like crap. Its really sad. Its 3 out of 5 that hate me.
Its another kick in the stomach. I can’t get out of bed. I’m not  going to, but I keep thinking how much easier it would be just to go to sleep and never wake up. It would be nice to just feel nothing for once. I think I need to separate myself from them now. I don’t need to develop PTSD from this. I sent him a note about setting boundaries with them. That is what is required to start to fix this situation. I left him with that. If he can’t start standing up to them and setting boundaries, that I can’t stay and be bullied anymore.

[Radcliff]

Ouch!  I am sorry, it must be so discouraging to battle headwinds with his kids.  That feeling of just wanting to disappear makes total sense given the discouraging situation, though it's a danger sign that you need support.  What does the rest of your support system look like?  Do you have close friends and family who you can spend time with, even if you're not discussing heavy issues, to feel supported and have some goodness?  Or are you more isolated?

WW

[Calmcollected]

Its going to sound crazy, but I reached out to his ex girlfriend he lived with that was his last relationship when I was going through a terrible time with his youngest son 6 months ago. They’ve been broken up for 5 years. She never really understood what was going on then and we both have become friends online, and find it therapeutic. She understands now what she was dealing with back then and it has given her closure. I also have counselling if I need it. Things got better immediately after my last post. I am about to be paid out from my divorce & I wanted to have a serious conversation with him about where we are going and if we are moving forward. I told him about things progressing and I needed to make some decisions. I told him this when I dropped off his lunch, no one was around and he got seriously upset I “ruined his day” at work and needed to wait until 5. I went back at 5 and he had left to bring gravel to my brothers for a fire pit. I know he was avoiding. The next day I asked if we could talk and he was tired, it was friday & he needed to relax. To stop pushing him, even though I wasn’t. He said Saturday, but I was working and couldnt. He said call Saturday and we’ll figure it out. I see him in person at noon, he came to help me fix my trailer. As he was leaving I asked what time tomorrow. He got extremely upset, raised his voice a little and got upset I was asking when he “clearly told me to call in the evening”. After a long day I went home and slept. I called at 8, we talked about our days and then I brought up meeting to talk about things. He said, “call me later I said”, I call at ten and avoidance again,but agreed to sometime in the afternoon and to call him in the morning. I call this morning and he is coming to town later, but has so much to do. Call later. I know his avoidance was being scared of what I had to say and was I going to leave him. Finally at noon I nail him down and set a time of 2pm. I chose the location and I picked a nature reserve with wooded trails and a waterfall. This threw him off a bit because it was different. He is of native American descent and I know he feels calmer surrounding by trees and water. He didn’t want to get out of his truck, but I was heading to the trail and was on my way. He had the ability to leave once I started, but I think the water calmed him. I was non judgemental, was able to go over issues from 6 months ago to the present, and so did he. He asked why I was bringing up the past. I told him it was like a garden. You have to pull out the weeds as they come, because if you don’t, it gets out of control and chokes all the plants. I also said I felt like I was holding onto a rope and slipping, that no one was reaching out to pull me up. He actually gave an analogy of his own of his feelings.
 When we had broken up in January/February, he had gone out with a woman, and I had gone out with two men. He asked how many times, and I told him. This ended things quickly. He was upset, but not raging. He walked back 100’ in front of me, but waited until I caught up. He still remained calm, we talked. I told him that nothing had happened and I talked to them about him and they talked about their separations. He was jealous, but I reminded him he started dating, and I did the same thing, only after he had done so. We calmly spoke some more. He was upset and asked if he could leave, I said of course he could, I would talk to him tomorrow. He left and it felt right. For the first time ever I was able to validate during a conversation, not just by text.
A couple of hours later I sent him this.
“You are the love of my life. I know it was hard & you were scared of what I had to say. It meant a lot to me that you did. I know you are hurting too. Today we both made an effort. Its how we start to heal. I felt like I was losing us, but you tried today & I felt hope. This week can we please make time to spend a quiet evening at home together, being normal with no fighting? Just having supper & watching tv? We need to start sharing our life together to get better.”
After that, he sent random calm texts, not about anything in particular and I sent this.
“Thank you for being brave & coming today. I know it wasn't easy. I was scared too. ”
Step foward.

[Radcliff]

Wow!  You were both brave!  Great work on the validation!   That took real guts for you to bring up real issues and not be afraid of his actions.  You were also thoughtful in picking a setting you knew would be calming to him.  Impressive!

How have things gone the last couple of days?

WW

[Calmcollected]

Better, but I jaded tonight because I’m hurt. We were supposed to spend tomorrow afternoon and evening together. Tonight he tells me that his son is having a big family get together tomorrow so the two families of his son and his 2 month girlfriend that is giving up her hygienist practice a 21 hour car ride away to be with his drug dealing son that she thinks works in construction for my BPDbf, can meet each other. His son was on a dating profile in march. Mid july and hes going to marry this girl. Shes moving her whole life and her son to be with someone she does not know! Of course because of the hate, I would never be invited to any family get together’s. That dysfunction alone is making me want to run. Christmas will be the same. I’m starting to think of the long term implications. He still tells his kids we’re not together. I just don’t know. I’m starting to feel like giving up.

[Radcliff]

I'm sorry, that doesn't feel good at all to be ditched for an event you're not invited to.  And to be thinking this early in the year that Christmas will be the same way is sad.  Thinking ahead to Christmas, can you be proactive to think about a Christmas you'd like to have?  Perhaps travel to see family?

It's natural to be discouraged about the relationship at a time like this, and healthy to be thoughtful about what you want long term.  Whatever course you take with the relationship, bpdfamily is here for you.

You said you JADEd.  Tell us more.  What did you say?  Do you see alternative ways you could have talked that were less JADEy but still authentically communicating your feelings?

WW

[Calmcollected]

I purposely sent him a meme that I knew would set him off describing how its better to be alone than with someone that doesn’t care about you. It didn’t get too crazy after. I validated the heck out of it.
All my family is here for Christmas, so I spend it with them on Christmas eve as they all have in laws. Last Christmas I did spend it with him, I bought the groceries just in case because he couldnt commit just in case his kids wanted to spend it with him. Of course they didn’t. So at 11am I was given the go ahead.
The family “event” he went to I knew he would not feel comfortable at and I was right. The new girlfriend of his son is well educated and the family is well off. He felt out of place and looked down on. There was a big fight between his son and girlfriend over someone she invited. Not surprising, I had given it 6 months. This is not an event I would have wanted to go to. Its just the fact I know we will be living 2 different existences for the rest of our lives if we do remain together.
His son has been away and occupied with her, so its been a lot less drama with him. His daughter has a boyfriend and has been with him. He works out of town, so she takes up a lot of my boyfriends time when he is gone for work. His 17 year old is having some mental health issues, and is finally getting psychiatric help. He of course is a priority, but then that leaves me alone most of the time. I have a full life, but I’m also looking for a life partner.

[Radcliff]

Even without BPD in the mix, with his kids' issues, that's a challenging situation.

Looking at your needs in the relationship, where's the biggest gap?  If you could pick one thing to make better, what would it be?

WW

[Calmcollected]

To spend actual quality time together or to have my needs met for once.

[Calmcollected]

Well, today I put up a boundary. We were supposed to spend the day together. We were going to also work on quotes for his business together. Instead he came to town and we picked up a bed together. Them he handed me the quotes to do on my own. I asked if we were going to and he said he didnt feel like fighting. I declined taking them. He them talked about if I wanted to bail, then bail. We’ll end it right here. I told him I wasn’t bailing, but I wasnt going to make time for him, if he couldnt make time for me. He then brought up me going on dates when we were broken up, and tried to turn blame on me. He also said I was forcing him to choose me over his kids.  I went to my truck and cried and he drove off.
We haven’t spent any quality time together since we broke up in January and got back together in March. I’ve bee at his house twice.
I sent him this text an hour ago.
“I support you always and make time whenever you need it because I love you. I know you love me, but I don't feel it. I've been saying for the last month that I feel unloved. I need to see an effort.
Lets have one evening together at the house just being together. If we fight, then you were right, but I know we won't.
Last time we were together was New Years and it was nice. I miss cooking you supper & watching Tv together. I don't ask for anything. This is all I'm asking for.”
I haven’t received a response.

[Calmcollected]

He sent a text saying I f’ing lied about how many date I had been on I replied and he would say stop messaging me, but keep going. I replied to replied to the last one and in a validating way. The last message he sent was this “I'm blocking you   I asked you nicely and you don't care”
Obviously I didn’t. I know this is all in response to my boundary, but it still hurts.

[Radcliff]

I am sorry, it sounds like you are receiving so much negativity from him, and not any support or validation.  That has got to be very discouraging.

Can you please explain the bed, quotes, and boundary a little bit more?  I didn't follow exactly what happened and how the boundary happened.

Can you tell us more about the time you spend together?  You've only been to his place twice in seven months.  Does he come to yours?  Do you work together daily?

WW

[Calmcollected]

We work together, we will do things together throughout the day, errands, going for lunch.
We were supposed to spend the afternoon and evening together. Plans in the last month have been made to do this, but keep getting pushed back because of his adult children. Right now I’m in a living situation where he can’t come over.
We were going to do quotes together as well while I was out there.  He bought a bed and frame in town, I helped him with it. Then I asked what we were doing and he said he doesn’t want me at the house because there is always fighting. There isn’t fighting ever. I believe the fighting is with his kids over me. Then he tried to hand me the quotes and asked if I wanted them. I told him I didn’t think so. He said if you’re going to bail on me, then lets just break up now. I said I wasn’t bailing, but I wasn’t going to put effort in if he wasn’t going to. Then he said I was forcing him to choose his kids over me. I told him no, he has adult children who have lives of their own. Then he kept bringing up the fact I went out on multiple dates and he only went out on one.
I feel I had to put up a boundary of not doing his quotes. I’ve stopped doing almost everything else. This was the last thing I do for him.

[Radcliff]

Are you paid to work with him, or are you helping because of the relationship?  Were the quotes something you did because of work, or as a personal favor to him because of the relationship?

How have things been going the last few days?

WW

[Calmcollected]

I practically ran the business in the beginning. As time has gone on, I have stepped back considerably, but still do the marketing, invoicing and typing up estimates and taking calls. I do not get paid. We used to go to his house, have supper, do what needed to be done and then spend the evening together. In january when his son physically pushed me out of the house, I called the police & didn’t have him charged, just spoken to, it all ended. We broke up at that time because my BPDbf wouldn’t answer my calls and went out for coffee with a woman a couple of days later & she put on facebook in less than a week they were “in a relationship” he immediately removed it. I started dating too. He found out I was and decided he didn’t like me doing that. After a month, we got back together, but I was never allowed at the house because of his son. Before I would work on the estimates with him. Now he writes them up and I just type them out. This past week he was behind and there were 8 to do. They were all missing major components, email, address of job etc. He will not be able to do this on his own without me. More than one job site & he starts melting down. He always has 2 jobs sites because he is trying to keep his other 34 year old drug dealing son employed so that his girlfriend doesn’t know what he really does. He was inappropriate with half our staff. The carpenters won’t work with him or they will quit. About 5 months ago he and his youngest son had a big fight & he moved out. His kids basically forbid him from being with me. We have been working on things and they have been better.
But then tonight, his youngest son is moving back in because he had a fight with his older brother whose house he moved into. My BPDbf said that his son is never going to forgive me for calling the cops on him. I asked if he was going to apologize for putting his hands on me and he said “why can’t you just let it go?”
I have let it go. His son hasn’t. I asked my BPDbf if his son knew we were still together and he said he didn’t know.
Obviously it is now over. An 18 year old boy is calling the shots. We can’t have any sort of relationship, I think he has been talking to me on the phone outside so he doesn’t know. His daughter who hates me also, does know we are together, but there is dysfunctional dynamics between all of them & I’m guessing they don’t talk.

[Radcliff]

Thanks for the detail on the work, that helps us understand.  You did a lot of work!

It must be beyond frustrating to have a child standing in the way of your adult relationship.  Do you have thoughts on what you want to do next?

WW

[Calmcollected]

Its not one child. Its his 20 year old daughter & his 34 year old son. His niece said once when I was over how awful his daughter was to anyone he was with, and his 34 year old son said that he has purposefully broken up his dads relationships by causing fights between his dad and whoever he is with.
I’m about to get my divorce settlement. We had olanned on being together. I’m going to move forward without him. If he catches up, so be it, but there is nothing I can do. I don’t look at it as the kids standing in the way, but him not having healthy boundaries.

[Radcliff]

I’m about to get my divorce settlement. We had olanned on being together. I’m going to move forward without him. If he catches up, so be it, but there is nothing I can do. I don’t look at it as the kids standing in the way, but him not having healthy boundaries.

Got it.  I'm so sorry things haven't worked out as you'd hoped.  Do you still plan to work with him?  Or will you stop seeing him during the days?

WW

[Calmcollected]

I don’t know. There is guilt that I’m stepping back further, that here he is with a kid threatening self harm and suicide. In the past he has used it to manipulate his dad. His son does need help. His oldest son has been lying anout the amount of time hes worked and is trying to add hours his pay cheque. Its a mess and my co dependency issues come out. I’m a lot better than last year not swooping in to save the day. I saw him for an hour this morning. He worked a 12 hour day and so did I running my own business. I’m going to work hard tomorrow and try not to call him. I’m going to slowly “wean” myself from talking to him to make it easier in the long run. it takes time. Yesterday I forced myself not to answer his texts immediately, even when he got upset with me for not immediately answering him. In the past I always answer right away, even though mine often don’t get acknowledged. I’m more at peace with if it works it works, if it doesn’t, it doesn’t. I don’t get anxiety anmore that it will be over. I feel like what will be, will be.

[Radcliff]

It sounds like you're slowly trying to claim some space, interact with him less, and see how that feels?

Those are long days!  If you are helping him less, will you have more time for your own business, or were you simply burning the candle at both ends before?

WW

[Calmcollected]

I was burning the candle. When I met him he was living in subsidized housing because he was an ironworker with full custody of his kids and couldnt leave town for work. They were in trouble. He now has a business that is finally taking off, he has some equity and a place to live that he owns. I did all this so that we could have a good life together. The sad thing is I know that he will not be able to maintain things and he will probably lose everything. I don’t think he or his son who is employed by him have any thankfulness in them or true understanding that if I’m gone, the business is gone and so is their income. I do all the marketing and use my business contacts to bring in new business. I often feel taken for granted. I would often drop things for my business to push his forward. That has now ended.
Now that I know we won’t have a life together, I have to move on wth my life and build my own.
He would often get mad because people would tell him how lucky he was to have me by clients. He would take it as an insult as a man that they thought he worked for me. I would always make sure to step back and away and promote him as the owner & boss. I think the BPD plays havoc with his mind and things get twisted, his self esteem is low so any indication that I’m running things sends him into anger and resentment.

[Radcliff]

He was lucky to have you, even more than was already clear in this thread.  It is sad that the illness prevents our pwBPD from seeing how much their "nons" are there for them, and sad for us "nons" when our needs are not met.  If you had to list all the feelings that you are feeling now, what would that list be?

WW

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Harri]

There is guilt that I’m stepping back further, that here he is with a kid threatening self harm and suicide. In the past he has used it to manipulate his dad. His son does need help... .  Its a mess and my co dependency issues come out. I’m a lot better than last year not swooping in to save the day. I saw him for an hour this morning. He worked a 12 hour day and so did I running my own business. I’m going to work hard tomorrow and try not to call him. I’m going to slowly “wean” myself from talking to him to make it easier in the long run. it takes time. Yesterday I forced myself not to answer his texts immediately, even when he got upset with me for not immediately answering him. In the past I always answer right away, even though mine often don’t get acknowledged. I’m more at peace with if it works it works, if it doesn’t, it doesn’t. I don’t get anxiety anmore that it will be over. I feel like what will be, will be.

Hi calmcollected.  We haven't met before so I want to say hi.  I read this thread and the response I quoted above caught my eye.  I can relate to having to force yourself to stop fixing and helping.  It goes against every instinct you have  inside doesn't it?  It is hard but I think you are doing very well fighting the almost reflexive urges.  It is good that you can see them too, but changing how you interact is what is so important here.  Good for you! 

I don’t get anxiety anmore that it will be over. I feel like what will be, will be.

I hear strength and acceptance here.  I imagine it was hard won though.  I think you are doing great and I am glad you are sharing on the board.  It is so important to look within and getting support while you try to change a lifetime of care taking behaviors is a smart thing to do.  Turn that caretaker instinct within.

[Calmcollected]

I felt a lot of sadness today. A need to be touched by him. He hasn’t in a very long time. I’m not conceited, but I do know that men find me very attractive. I get hit on all the time. This week I got invited out to a guys house to look in his barn. For the last year he has been bringing me items that I can use for my designs. Last week he had come in and said he had more stuff for me and would bring it by. Then he showed up at my shop and invited me to come take a look as it would be easier. When I got there, I realized he was trying to find a way to get to know me. Just an hour ago another man I know was messaging me telling me how beautiful I am and wants to take me out. The only thing I want is for my BPDbf to make an effort. Its only when he thinks I’m leaving that he does.
I’m considering contacting the man who had me at his farm and seeing if he would like to have dinner. I want to be with someone that reciprocates my feelings. Sometimes though, I feel like he’s a drug and I’m addicted to him. I need to try to distance myself more. Today I brought him coffee while he was finishing up a job. There was no thank you or acknowledgement that I had done so. Just expectation.

[Harri]

Hi.  I am sorry to hear that yesterday was such a difficult day for you.  Sometimes just sitting with our feelings is the best thing we can do.  Feelings just are and as difficult as they may be they do change in time. 

I understand wanting to reach out to someone who does pay attention and helps you feel good about yourself when you are with them.  I think it is natural to feel that way given the circumstances.

Are you able to just sit with your feelings without judging them, just noticing them and acknowledging them without acting on them? 

What can you do to take care of yourself?

[Panda39]

Hi.  I am sorry to hear that yesterday was such a difficult day for you.  Sometimes just sitting with our feelings is the best thing we can do.  Feelings just are and as difficult as they may be they do change in time.  

I understand wanting to reach out to someone who does pay attention and helps you feel good about yourself when you are with them.  I think it is natural to feel that way given the circumstances.

Are you able to just sit with your feelings without judging them, just noticing them and acknowledging them without acting on them?  

I just wanted to chime in, I'm sorry you are feeling/being so neglected it totally sucks!  

I agree with Harri for a couple of reasons.  Jumping into another relationship when you haven't finished the first never works out well  (been there done that   even if the attention initially feels good in the short term, it doesn't resolve the issues you have with your bf in the long term.

It's also unfair to the man who is interested in you.  He deserves to have someone who is present for him, interested in him, and wants to be with him, not because it soothes your feelings about your bf.

I say this from experience... .from marrying my "rebound man" for all the wrong reasons... .to prove to my ex that I was desirable, to prove that someone could commit to me when he could not, to get married because at 26 I thought that was what would please my critical mother, and that I was doing what society expected of me... .I married him for a million reasons and none of them were because I loved him. I married him because he asked and I was hurting.

So I totally understand why you want to reach out to someone else but I encourage you to like Harri says, just sit with those feelings.  They are uncomfortable and they suck but in acting on them you will inflict more pain on yourself and pain on others.

From my experience you need to work through your current relationship and heal from it before you can be there for someone else.

I encourage you to think about your current relationship.  I often found myself thinking about what the other person wanted/needed/deserved and not about what I wanted/needed/deserved.  So I ended up settling for relationships that were lopsided, all about them, blamed myself for the relationship ending (when in reality the relationships just didn't work... .we tried/we failed... .no one was to "blame".)  It took me a long time to think about me, what I wanted/needed/deserved and whether or not I was receiving those things.  

I think it is good that you are thinking about what you need for you,  and if you are getting that in your current relationship.  Those are important questions to ask yourself.

Hang in there,  
Panda39
 

[Calmcollected]

Thanks. These are all things I know all ready. I wouldn’t act on them. Its just nice to know that there are options. I do love my bf. when we broke up in January I went on dates and was totally upfront about the situation, but they didn’t care. After 2 weeks I stopped because I felt like I was cheating. I would actually rather be alone than without him at this point. Today again, we were to spend time together and instead his 34 year old showed up at his house & started a huge fight with his 17 year old brother and now we aren’t.
This craziness & drama are just too much.

[Panda39]

There seems to be a lot of dysfunction here a lot of acting out by everyone in your bf's family... .everyone acting out to get attention.  Negative attention is still attention    You seem to be put in the position to be in competition with your bf's children for his time.  There seems to be triangulation going on here... .but everyone seems to be vying for the "victim" position.

More on the Karpman Triangle...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

His cutting son by his actions to me is absolutely screaming for help.  I may have missed this but are any of these children receiving any therapy?  How do their mothers play in the picture? 

How would you describe your role in the mix? If any. Do you see yourself on the triangle?  What role do you find yourself in most? What are you getting out of this relationship?  Are you getting what you want/need/deserve?

Panda39

[Learning2Thrive]

I understand wanting to reach out to someone who does pay attention and helps you feel good about yourself when you are with them.  I think it is natural to feel that way given the circumstances.

Are you able to just sit with your feelings without judging them, just noticing them and acknowledging them without acting on them? 

What can you do to take care of yourself?

Hi Calmcollected 

Harri offers some excellent wisdom. I know it’s very difficult, but I encourage you to focus on you today... .and tomorrow. And the next day and the next... .

What would happen if you give yourself the same amount of love,kindness and compassion you have continually given your bf?

I think I have been where you are.

I understand the desire to help your partner and pull them through. And you recognize he resonds when you appear to be moving on.

It hurts so much and words can’t even begin to describe the drive to help. Something deep within is driven to show compassion, empathy, love and kindness? Maybe it’s the love, compassion and kindness you desire and deserve... .but never received? And maybe, even subconsciously you have realized that he pulls you back when you seem to be ready to move on to someone else?

 No wonder seeking comfort with someone new seems appealing.

I want you to know you absolutely are worthy of love, kindness, compassion, respect and joy, Calmcollected. Especially and most importantly your own.

The pain you feel is real. It is toxic. But at the same perhaps time you struggle. You don’t want to give up on him—because maybe you need someone who won’t give up on you? 

Please give yourself the same gifts you have given him.

You are amazing, unique and ever so worthy. You, above anyone else on this planet deserve your own love and compassion and respect.

  L2T

[Calmcollected]

I’m out of triangle & quite aware of it. When I start to get dragged in, I remove myself from it. I haven’t been around his kids since the beginning of the year except for one time when his daughter showed up at the job site and beeped her horn until he dropped what he was doing to go and talk to her. She did that because I was there. His son has been referred to a psychiatrists and is waiting for his first visit. I had arranged for counselling for him through his probation officer because of his extreme anger and the fact he pushed me out of the house. Before our relationship was good and I know that he loves me. The eldests mother left. They were 17 when they had him and my Bf kept him. He has 2 other children from mothers that do like me. He had 3 kids with a second woman in his early 20’s that left the two youngest at home by themselves and the house burned down with them in it. His last two, the daughter that sits in her car and his 17 year old. That mother is an alcoholic and mixes prescription meds. I’m 5 years younger than her and she looks 20 years older. She is estranged from her son. His son has said I did more for him in a year than she did for him in a lifetime.
None of the other kids will go to therapy or have the skills of seeking it out.
Everyday that goes by, I see the futility. Everyone on these boards have trouble with their ine BPD. I’m dealing with 4.

[Learning2Thrive]

Everyday that goes by, I see the futility. Everyone on these boards have trouble with their ine BPD. I’m dealing with 4.

Yes, that is a lot to deal with and so overwhelming. That’s why it’s so important for you to take extra good care of you. 

Truly, I know first hand and can definitely empathize as I actually have several uBPD and uNPD individuals in my life. One uBPD ex-lover, one uNPD ex-husband (with whom I had 2 children, both of which are grown and independent but one shows strong BPD traits), one sibling who is diagnosed cPTSD with strong BPD traits, and a uNPD/sociopathic mother. It was EXHAUSTING!

I had to give myself a break and establish healthy boundaries so that I could take care of me. The interactions with them kept me running ragged and believing that everything would be better after I did this one more thing (fill in the blank) for them. Or, if I would just accept their abuse and pretend it never happened so they could feel better because they were so “fill in the blank”.

I had to accept that I am the only one who can provide me with lasting peace and true happiness. Through therapy, a lot of introspection and practical use of the tools and resources here, my life has completely changed for the better. I still have tough days sometimes, but there is a peace now that I never had before.

All this to say, I really do understand. Only you can decide what is right for you. We’re here to listen and support you with tools and resources to help reduce conflict.

Sending you positive energy and good thoughts.

  L2T

[Calmcollected]

So I found out what happened yesterday at the house. This morning my BPDbf said he had a terrible morning. When I asked what made it so terrible, he told me not to push. I went to the job site and went for a ride with him to get supplies. He eventually let out that his older son had come over and was saying his younger brother owed him for living in his house for the last 3 months. He had him selling for him that whole time & it was a large quantity. He wanted him back there to continue. The older son was supposed to show up at work today, but didnt because he got home really late and was too tired. My BPDbf said hes done forever. That he wants his new girlfriend to know who he really is. We drove up to the job site and our employee was there working his heart out. I said what a good worker he was and how he was extremely loyal to my BPDbf and looked up to him. He replied, hes more loyal to me than my own kid.
This is good for 2 reasons. The older son manipulates everyone to be against me and knows how to do it. One of the fights I had with his youngest was about his older brother and how I knew what he was selling. He insisted I was wrong, that his brother wasnt into heavy stuff and defended him. I have now been proven right. The last week he has been out of his brothers  house his mood has lightened and he is back to himself. I think the self harm may be the things he was being forced to do.
I spoke to my BPDbf today and said to ask the youngest if I can take him out to supper so we can rebuild our relationship. He seemed open to the idea.
Fingers crossed.

[Learning2Thrive]

Hi Calmcollected,

My BPDbf said hes done forever. That he wants his new girlfriend to know who he really is

Do you believe he will follow through on his words?

Do you have a plan of action in the event he does not?

I spoke to my BPDbf today and said to ask the youngest if I can take him out to supper so we can rebuild our relationship. He seemed open to the idea.

Is this really the kind of relationship you want? Are you referring to rebuilding the relationship with your bf ? Or are you referring to the adult child?

  L2T

[Calmcollected]

The relationship I would like to rebuild is with his 17 year old son. We always had a great reationship until January. My Bf has been estranged from his eldest before. 4 years when he wouldnt stop getting in trouble with the law, & 1 year when I first met my bf and his eldest son had at that time given his 14 year old brother pot to sell at school to make $20.
The eldest is the biggest problem. Always manipulating, in trouble with the law, I believe he is a sociopath.
The youngest has now seen and understands that the brother he has always looked up to does not have his best interest at heart and lied to him about what he really does.
When I said he is done forever, I mean working for the company.

[Calmcollected]

Yesterday friends and people in a similar  businesss to ours sub-contracted us to do some work. They are a husband & wife team. When my BPDbf doesn’t tell me things, he will talk to them. I asked if he had said anything about his eldest, and he had. His eldest son yesterday  kept caling my BPDbf’s phone & he didn’t anwer. Then he received a message saying “we need to talk”. He told our friends that he didn’t want to talk to him and he was going to have to cut ties with his son to protect his other son.
If he does this, it wil provide the space for healing. The eldest son turns everyone against me. The youngest boy loved me. We spent a lot of time together. If he was in trouble, or needed help, I would be the first one he called. The eldest would tell people how he orchestrated fights between everyone in his family. With him gone, it will be different.

[Panda39]

If your bf goes no contact with his older son, it might make things easier in some ways, but keep in mind that this will be very difficult and painful and guilt filled, for your bf.  He will need your support.  I've gone through this with my SO's daughters and their uBPDmom, D17 is low contact and D21 is no contact.

Also keep in mind that this is now and things could look different and change in the future. You will need to be adaptable.

Panda39

[Calmcollected]

I know. I’ve gone through it with him all ready. His main concern was not seeing the grandchildren, but we have a good relationship with their mother who said he can see them anytime.

[Learning2Thrive]

... .he received a message saying “we need to talk”. He told our friends that he didn’t want to talk to him and he was going to have to cut ties with his son to protect his other son.
If he does this, it wil provide the space for healing. The eldest son turns everyone against me. The youngest boy loved me. We spent a lot of time together. If he was in trouble, or needed help, I would be the first one he called. The eldest would tell people how he orchestrated fights between everyone in his family. With him gone, it will be different.

  Calmcollected

I’m a little confused.

Are you saying your BPDbf will have more time to focus on you and will start meeting your needs once the eldest son is cut off? 

What happens if your bf doesn’t cut him off?

What happens if he does but still doesn’t make an effort to meet your needs?

  L2T

[Calmcollected]

No, the oldest son causes dysfunction throughout the whole family. I believe he is a sociopath as well as a drug dealer & user.  If its not me, he turns his attention to someone else in the family and causes drama triangles. When he wasn’t around, everything was calm and much more functional. When you take him out of the dynamics, its a different world. He announced last year to our crew that he enjoyed ruining his dads life and caused fights between my BPDbf & me & knew how to get rid of me, his youngest son, his daughter etc. On the job site there were fist fights he would orchestrate by causing paranoia between former friends etc. It was insane. He went around telling people he owned the company. He would tell people he was going to hire them when we were overstaffed & he didn’t have the authority to do so. The small amount of time he has worked this year he has lied to new staff about former staff. He has tried to submit twice the amount of hours he has actually worked and doesnt show up.
His younger brother that was self harming is no longer doing so now that he is not living with him.
With his lifestyle he will end up in jail. Its just a matter of time.

[Learning2Thrive]

I understand how having the eldest out of the picture would lessen the drama and chaos. I agree that would improve the situation. But, your bf has allowed this to go on for quite a while. What happens if your bf doesn’t cut him off?

What happens if he does cut oldest son off but your bf still doesn’t make an effort to meet your needs?

I understand you care and you want to help your bf and his children. But what about you? You are worthy of having a safe, mutually loving, reciprocal relationship with your bf. You deserve to have a partner who is as thoughtful of your needs as you are of his.

  L2T

[Radcliff]

Wow, CalmCollected, that really helps us to understand how disruptive his eldest son is!  You care so much for your bf and his youngest son, and it must be very hard to watch their healing and growth interfered with by someone with such destructive tendencies.  It seems like striking a balance between letting your bf own his own problems and giving him support to move in a healthy direction would be a very difficult challenge.  What are your thoughts on that?

WW

[Calmcollected]

Wentworth, thats what I’ve been doing. I haven’t been bringing up his son & what he’s going to do. He hasn’t been at work at all this week. This week has been tumultuous. My BPDbf is lashing out and angry. Nitpicking at the smallest things. I told him that I know he didn’t mean to make me feel unloved and that he was stressed about the decision he had to make about his eldest and that I supported him in whatever decision he made.
Last week we were working together and I talked with him and told him that if he didn’t start making an effirt for quality time for us, he was going to lose me. He asked if that was a threat and I said no, we were drifting apart and needed to work on it.
That conversation slipped from my mind. Yesterday I realized that its been on his this whole time. He showed up at the bank to meet me & was really angry. I spoke to the teller first and it set him off. When we got outside he went on a tirade about how I disrespected him inside but not alowing him to deal with it. (We were transferring money from his account to mine as I had lent him money to cover payroll the last time) How I haven’t changed in 2 years, how I disrespected him on a quote by asking the client questions, how he was going to buy a printer to do everything himself from now on (he doesn’t have a computer) etc etc & snowballed. I didn’t jade.
Then the truth came out. He said “I’m just going to move on, you’ve pretty much made up your mind to move on, so I am too”
I told him that I was not leaving, that we needed to work on us and we needed to do something together this week-end in order to to that. He said “like what” I told him anything he liked. I told him I was moving ahead with my life. My divorce settlement is coming. There are 2 places I’m considering putting an offer on & will need his help with for repairs. I explained there were 2 bedrooms in both, so room for all of us.
Then he blustered a bit and said he was leaving.
I know he has painted his eldest black. When he would try to turn my boyfriend against me, he had the advantage of being his son. But this time he has harmed the youngest brother who is his fathers favourite and needs protection. He gave his younger brother drugs when he was 14 to sell at school so he could make money for spending. Thats when the year of no contact happened. That was just once. When he got involved with something much worse, they were estranged for 4 years.
Having his brother live in a drug house, sell for him and then threaten him to continue in his eyes is the ultimate betrayal.
I will continue to hang back on that issue and just work on us. If it doesn’t work out, so be it.

[Radcliff]

Good work not JADEing at the bank.    I'm still really sorry to hear that that happened, though.  Those kind of cut-downs, even if they are not credible, still can hurt a lot.

It sounds like you work hard to be sensitive to him, though it sounds like a lot of your conversations happen on the go, and there's not really time to sit down and get comfortable to focus on a quiet conversation.  I see the irony here, though -- you're saying that's the problem, right -- that you guys don't get time together to work on things?

I have a question that may be out in left field, or may be worth considering.  Have you ever thought about having him pay you for the work you do for his business?  Here's my thinking... .your value as a gf and as a contributor to his business seem all mixed up together.  You are doing real work for him, and getting little in return.  There's no cost to him, so why shouldn't he get whatever he can out of you?  The labor rate isn't that important.  You could pick a low rate that wouldn't throw off his business.  If he said that he wanted you to do things for him as his girlfriend, that doesn't really work for you because you're not getting boyfriend time from him.  The main idea here is that you are not "free."  You and your contributions as a gf and business worker have value, and they should be honored.  Getting paid gets at the business side of things, and introduces the fact that you have value.  This is just an idea.  What are your thoughts?

WW

[Calmcollected]

I think thats a great idea. I will present it to him tomorrow. I had something else happen today that I’m not sure we’ll come back from as a couple. But I will present the wage issue. It makes sense.

[Radcliff]

I think thats a great idea. I will present it to him tomorrow. I had something else happen today that I’m not sure we’ll come back from as a couple. But I will present the wage issue. It makes sense.

I'm sorry to hear there's been another bump.  Give us an update when you have time!

WW

[Calmcollected]

I think this is more than a bump. I’ve been devalued to blackness. This feels final. I found out yesterday he took a woman to a family barbecue to his oldest sons house. I had messaged that I had heard he was seeing someone else, but coming from his son and it might not be true. His former daughter in law told me his grandsons had  met papas new girlfriend and she’s nice. I messaged him the womans name & said we need to talk. He called right away, for the most part was calm. Said she was just a friend and maybe he should start dating her. I wasn’t going to tell him who he could and could not be friends with. Then it became about me and the dates I went on when we broke up in January, how I called the police on his kids etc. Then he brought up a friend that I use for advertising my business and said I was friends with him and have fun ___ing him. I told him I considered it wrong by going out with another woman and that we should just keep things professional. I offered to do his work, but would have to go on payroll. He got very angry & said he wanted to have nothing to do with me and never wanted to see me again. I had asked earlier in the conversation if he was going to do the work on the house I was considering buying and he said no, He owes me money & I offered it as a solution to wipe out his debt. He asked for the passwords to his facebook business page, but I’m blocked now, so he can’t tranfer it.  I told him I needed the plates off inactive vehicles & trailers in my name tomorrow so I could return them and register them off the road. He said fine. He is also going to pay me back money he borrowed the other night. The conversation went back to never wanting to see me again and how he doesn’t care about me at all anymore. He’s putting everything up for sale including his harley & leaving. I asked if he had ever loved me or if he still did and he told me not to ask sych stupid questions ( he says that when I ask questions with obvious answers)
It was his birthday yesterday. People were leaving many messages on his facebook page and there is one woman from his home town that had been making sexual innuendos before and he would banter back. She made a kiss emoji and said she hoped he wasn’t working too hard. He is going back home this  week-end.
He has had emotional affairs before.
I messaged him that I had unpublished the business page and it was ready for transfer. I took down all the online ads and he would have to post his own. He was free to purchase his business domain for his email & I would show him how. Its on auto message directing them to call or text him. I told him to stop giving out business cards with my number  and putting out the yard signs with my number. I told him that he doesn’t own his logo, but how to pay for and order more cards and advertising materials. I did this by text. I also asked him to return the birthday card I got him with a gift certificate for a tattoo since we were no longer together. I said I would use it for myself.
Last night I received a message frim his 81 year old landlord. He lives in a mobile home park. He has been hired to do contracts for them and he was offered the job of managing the park as it has been sold to the landlords sons. He said he had given my exBPDbf’s 17 year old son heck for having his friends over with their dirtbikes and wrecking the yard. He said my ex BPDbf came over & chewed him out for doing that. He said he had never seen him so angry and was taken aback by it. He was afraid of him. I explained what had happened yesterday & that his anger was for me and not him. It was no excuse, but I diffused the situation. He could have been evicted for it. He asked why he had the mobile home up for sale and I told him it was because he owed me money.

[Calmcollected]

I just came to a self realization. He did pull back like this when he was having multiple emotional affairs before. When it stopped, we were good. I’m done now.

[Radcliff]

I just came to a self realization. He did pull back like this when he was having multiple emotional affairs before. When it stopped, we were good. I’m done now.

We are 100% behind you whatever path you take here.  It sounds like you've done a number of things in order to hand the reigns of his business over to him.  It's pretty likely he'll contact you again.  What's your plan if he does?

WW

[Harri]

This thread has been locked due to reaching the post limit.  Part 2 has been started and can be found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327732.0