Financial mediation Part 3

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341628.0

Let me know if you have any questions about DH's situation -- it sounds, in ways, similar to yours.

Wow Kells, it does sound very very similar. So that I have this right, are you suggesting that I put a parenting plan on the table that stipulates a large amount of parenting time? (I’ve toyed with the idea of offering to make her a Disney Mum, but think that might be a step too far that would be far too shameful and could encourage her to see the kids as something I want and therefore she must have and can’t let me have them). I’m conscious as well of the flip that your husband experienced. Do you know if that flip coincided with him helping with the divorce? My W doesn’t see the D as her choice, more something she HAS to do because she KNOWS that I’m abusive, so at the moment no one owns the D and it’s kinda just floating around in the ether. She “owns” it begrudgingly in proceedings with comments like “apparently it’s my choice to get divorce so I guess I’m leading it”, when asked. By putting something on the table does it appear to her that I am “choosing” divorce? I know I’ve laboured on this, but I do think it’s important. I’ve seen how being proactive or rescuing is almost always the flip point where all of a sudden I go from rescuer to perpetrator (which looks to have happened in your H’s situation). His exBF may have validated it but my guess is the original flip came from his exW, BF just saw it in his interest to agree to absolutely everything. BF in the same way OM, benefit from me or your H being lower as they get promoted higher. The more black I am the more white he is. How do I avoid this flip or is it just inevitable.

Skip, since my W doesn’t trust me, she’s unlikely to trust a deal I offer at this stage (I believe). Had I have offered her a deal in 2017 I can see how this might have played out. Her emotions to leave were more impulsive and less considered. In essence I believe that I’ve missed the roadside deal. (I don’t regret that as I have gained many things along the way, not least a Teflon bond with the kids). Anything I offer will be seen as my baseline, are we not now at the stage where she has to offer me something to get this done as she wants... in financial terms I’m the passive buyer and she’s the aggressive seller (albeit a bit disorganised in her approach). Does she want this to go to court, I don’t think so.

Enabler

[Enabler]

This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341628.0

Let me know if you have any questions about DH's situation -- it sounds, in ways, similar to yours.

Wow Kells, it does sound very very similar. So that I have this right, are you suggesting that I put a parenting plan on the table that stipulates a large amount of parenting time? (I’ve toyed with the idea of offering to make her a Disney Mum, but think that might be a step too far that would be far too shameful and could encourage her to see the kids as something I want and therefore she must have and can’t let me have them). I’m conscious as well of the flip that your husband experienced. Do you know if that flip coincided with him helping with the divorce? My W doesn’t see the D as her choice, more something she HAS to do because she KNOWS that I’m abusive, so at the moment no one owns the D and it’s kinda just floating around in the ether. She “owns” it begrudgingly in proceedings with comments like “apparently it’s my choice to get divorce so I guess I’m leading it”, when asked. By putting something on the table does it appear to her that I am “choosing” divorce? I know I’ve laboured on this, but I do think it’s important. I’ve seen how being proactive or rescuing is almost always the flip point where all of a sudden I go from rescuer to perpetrator (which looks to have happened in your H’s situation). His exBF may have validated it but my guess is the original flip came from his exW, BF just saw it in his interest to agree to absolutely everything. BF in the same way OM, benefit from me or your H being lower as they get promoted higher. The more black I am the more white he is. How do I avoid this flip or is it just inevitable.

Skip, since my W doesn’t trust me, she’s unlikely to trust a deal I offer at this stage (I believe). Had I have offered her a deal in 2017 I can see how this might have played out. Her emotions to leave were more impulsive and less considered. In essence I believe that I’ve missed the roadside deal. (I don’t regret that as I have gained many things along the way, not least a Teflon bond with the kids). Anything I offer will be seen as my baseline, are we not now at the stage where she has to offer me something to get this done as she wants... in financial terms I’m the passive buyer and she’s the aggressive seller (albeit a bit disorganised in her approach). Does she want this to go to court, I don’t think so.

Enabler

[worriedStepmom]

The problem is you don't know what will trigger her flip from marking you as the perpetrator.  It could be something that you had no influence on/nothing to do with.

My H's uBPDex is incapable of putting forth plans.  She blames H for lots of actions that she takes, but when it comes down to legal matters, she cannot put into words what she wants.   If H gives her a framework, then she offers some feedback - but not much.  She usually agrees to most of what he asks.

(In our case, uBPDex is afraid of going to court and will do almost anything to avoid that.)

[kells76]

are you suggesting that I put a parenting plan on the table that stipulates a large amount of parenting time?

This can work for some people -- it provides you with a place to negotiate "downward" from.

It raises the bigger question of "What would make your W feel like she is winning (or, at least, "feel like she's not being taken advantage of)?"

In fact, it raises the question of "What do you think your W wants/needs to feel during this process, in order for it to go best for the kids?" You've already mentioned

Everyone needs to tread very carefully though to keep the process ticking over at a pace she can handle where she feels heard.

And you're having some insight that

I’ve toyed with the idea of offering to make her a Disney Mum, but think that might be a step too far that would be far too shameful and could encourage her to see the kids as something I want and therefore she must have and can’t let me have them

Strategically connected is

How do I avoid this flip or is it just inevitable.

Big questions... I will need some time to cogitate on this a little more. With DH, by the time he realized that xW and her H wanted to "be the real family" and erase him, it was past the divorce. For you, you're at a different point on the timeline.

I hope some other members can chime in, while I'm thinking, on finding the balance of "what makes the xW feel like she's winning and 'taking from you what you want' " with not pushing so hard and so fast that perhaps the "flip" occurs.

I seem to recall that either Turkish or Formflier (or both, though correct me if I'm wrong) have discussed this topic -- of "making the other party feel like they're winning" in mediation.

Hope to be back later with more thoughts;

kells76

[kells76]

The problem is you don't know what will trigger her flip from marking you as the perpetrator.  It could be something that you had no influence on/nothing to do with.

Good point from WSM. Perhaps the takeaway lesson is "plan for the flip happening, whether sooner or later". Include it as a given in your strategy -- with the question being when, not if.

More points of learning:

For WSM's DH's xW, what "made her feel like she was winning" was

uBPDex is afraid of going to court and will do almost anything to avoid that

I would formulate my DH's xW's "I feel like I'm winning" posture as: I am seen as the expert on the kids.

When disordered people in a mediation/agreement situation can occupy a position of "I feel like I'm on top" , then they may be more inclined to sign off on something that actually works for the kids and you.

Here's a "tree" detail in your "forest" situation that could help:

How would you formulate a statement of "My W feels like she's winning when ______"?

Would it be "...when she feels heard"? Or something else?

What would some specifics be of what that means?

Can you use that info to guide your actions, body language, etc, in mediation, so that you exit with an agreement protecting your kids' time with you?

Food for thought...

[formflier]

  in financial terms I’m the passive buyer and she’s the aggressive seller (albeit a bit disorganised in her approach). 

If you stay in these roles, I suspect she will get ticked off and (fill in the blank)

It's important you have an offer you can sign AND that you can negotiate from.  It's also important how you present it.

I would present it unless she explicitly says she wants to see it. 

I think if she tries to have another session without handing YOU a signable offer, you need to clarify with her what her purpose is.

Again...I don't think she wants a divorce, but I think she is going to get one.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

My W feels like she is winning when she feels like she is being a better parent than me. Where she can take the moral high ground she will and believes that she understands them bette than I do. She believes that I make her feel like a failure as a mother. She runs into a bit of a conflict (which I’m sure is very common), she wants to be an attentive mum but resents the kids because they don’t make her feel very good and add to her sense of imprisonment.

FF the mediation process doesn’t really work in the way you’re suggesting. I think producing a signable agreement might be seen as out of context to the process. The process being one where we sit down and come to an agreement rather than a proposal being tabled. That said, I agree I need to know what I want, which I do, but she really needs to have some starting point of what she wants to achieve... which is the stumbling block at the moment.

Enabler

[formflier]

How can you know what is agreeable to you, unless you have sorted out several acceptable proposals ahead of time?

So if mediation is NOT to create a signable document, when does that happen?

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

My W feels like she is winning when she feels like she is being a better parent than me. Where she can take the moral high ground she will and believes that she understands them bette than I do. She believes that I make her feel like a failure as a mother. She runs into a bit of a conflict (which I’m sure is very common), she wants to be an attentive mum but resents the kids because they don’t make her feel very good and add to her sense of imprisonment.

This is H's ex too.  She believes she is an excellent parent.  If H ever asked questions or made suggestions about SD, ex believed he was implying that she was a bad parent.  (H filed for primary custody after a week-long dysregulation that started when he asked "do you think we should get SD tested for allergies?" and resulted in SD calling H at 10 pm, hysterical, because she couldn't calm her mother down.)   ex does not prioritize parenting, and after custody changed, she voluntarily gave up a number of her days, all the while whining that she wanted more time with SD.   

SD - then 11 - pointed out to us that is was more important for her mom to be the victim than to fight for her daughter.   More than anything, H's ex values her role as the victim of an evil, abusive (ex)husband.  H asking for custody played into this narrative.  (ex's reality also includes the evil stepmom - me - and the evil therapist who has alienated SD from her mom.)   

How does your wife react when she sees you as the evil husband?  Will she dig in her heels, or try to get revenge in a different way, or will she back down after a giant screaming fit?

[empath]

My h felt like he was winning when he moved out and was going to file for divorce because in his reality I was abusive. He had been working on that goal for about 3 years when he finally followed through on it, so I had a while to prepare and investigate the situation. My goal was to become physically separated with minimal danger to all of us and with me as the primary parent.

After almost 2 years, we still don't have any mutual agreements about the way things are going to play out. H has minimal contact with our kids, including the adult children, because he doesn't pursue a relationship with them.

Is there a limit to the number of mediation sessions?

What would your ideal parenting arrangement be? Is there a way that you can put that into effect by your actions (being unavailable for childcare whilst Enablerwife has her busy social life)? Part of my own preparations was to become the primary parent that was available and involved. I described my changes to my counselor as "living as if" this was the reality. It's also a way to shatter the delusion in actions rather than argument.

[Enabler]

How does your wife react when she sees you as the evil husband?  Will she dig in her heels, or try to get revenge in a different way, or will she back down after a giant screaming fit?

There's a bit of trauma reenactment feel about it, although I'm not 100% sure what the trauma she is reenacting (her mother has a horrible streak and very similar to W in many respects, she can be incredibly nasty under stress. She would give my W the silent treatment for multiple weeks and INCREDIBLY passive aggressive as well as overtly critical). If I tell the kids off about anything (leaving mess around the house, not sitting at the dinner table, not doing what my W or I ask, swearing, hitting/kicking) she will always play good cop, then she will tell anyone that will listen how evil I have been. The reaction is typically to take the kids somewhere and make them feel like they have been a victim of evil Daddy (cuddle, treats etc etc). She keeps thinking it's okay to leave the kids at home whilst she just pops out, she kinda 'put it out there' about going for a run first thing in the morning leaving the kids at home. D11 and D9 I'm pretty relaxed about but D6 is just NOT OKAY in the slightest. I had to handle an outright "NO" very carefully so as not to trigger the "I'm a bad mum", but I just couldn't comprehend how she thought this was in anyway shape or form okay. Had I have suggested this was "bad mum" territory she'd have just found a whole bunch of 'issues' with me that were outlandishly terrible parenting to make herself feel better.

This weekend we had a chimney fire, all a bit weird and revealed an accident waiting to happen with some wooden battens holding up some fire board at the bottom of the chimney. She dealt with it amazingly, called the firebrigade and then called them back when she wasn't okay that the situation was all sorted. She literally stopped the house from burning down. I made a massive thing of it, bought her flowers and bought the kids treats as they all acted impeccably. I was thinking to myself "how do I make my W feel like she's a great Mum".   

FF, the point of mediation is that the structure of a signable document is agreed. It's then drafted by her/my lawyer and we then sign it. I have to have a structure in mind, or likely a range of acceptable structures. I have a pretty good idea about what would work and more to the point, the things I need to even make the maths work. There are some significant fixed costs such as commuting which just shouldn't come into play when considering what is and isn't disposable income.

Empath, there's no limit to the number of mediation sessions as long as it is seen that progress is being made. The mediator is good at keeping the arrow going in the right direction. 

[livednlearned]

Enabler, were you able to find out what the standard offer is for your jurisdiction?

If collaborative law mediation means you don't have to come out with an agreement, how many sessions are you expected to have and who decides when you two have come to an impasse?

What happens next if you aren't able to come to agreement?

My W feels like she is winning when she feels like she is being a better parent than me.

So applying that to mediation, a mediator or lawyer might say, "Mr. Enabler told us about the time you saved the house from burning down. You're a good parent and the kids are lucky you were there to keep them safe. Good thinking on your part. I shudder to think what would've happened if you weren't there, and I'm glad you're ok."

"The standard court formula is 50/50, and your scenario is gold standard for that. If you earn a scholarship to the best school in the country and want to get a degree in ______, you and Mr. Enabler can come back to the drawing board and we'll tweak the agreement to accommodate something that works."

That's one way to help her help you in mediation.

The other is to have organized in your mind, ahead of time, how you think about the state formula, given your specific circumstances.

First, know what the state formula is. What's considered standard?

In one column, break out each standard item.  

In another, write what would be ideal for you.

In a third column, write down what specifics you are willing to negotiate, including deal breakers.

In a fourth column, write down what you think she might ask for. Write down what concessions you are willing to give if those items come up, and what are deal breakers.

I suspect the reason you felt calm, relaxed in mediation is because you know she wasn't in any state to make decisions. You're safe. She's on a listening tour and mediation does not mean you are mandated to sign an agreement.

The downside is that you aren't moving forward to discuss the tough stuff and like others have said, the longer you wait, the more money you spend. She may start to dig in her heels, or worse. You can read a lot of stories on this board about how bad worse can get 

If you are at all hoping that you can wait this process out and avoid divorce, it's important to be honest with yourself about that. And if you are feeling hopeful, you still have to deal with the splashes of cold water coming at you because to ignore them can have serious financial and custodial consequences for the kids.

Do you have someone who can keep you on task and help you complete unpleasant tasks? You naturally want to process things emotionally, which can unfortunately blindside us during a legal process that doesn't care what state of mind we're in.

You have to let your future self (healthy) take care of your now self (struggling).

Divorce is overwhelming. I'm glad you're reaching out to friends here.  

[Enabler]

I don't believe there is a set formula and it also depends on how much capital there is. If there's a small amount of capital it comes down to needs. Once needs are surpassed it comes down to moving the levers of income and capital. We have a pretty decent amount of capital... not millions but enough to meet 'needs' and therefore we can move towards the realms of "fair". The methodology I introduced was one where in a future date (11.5yrs time, when D6 graduates high school), the amount of capital W has and the amount of capital I have + the amount of money I am reasonably able to save in that time transect. After that point there is no need for us to be financially tied and no reason why I shouldn't reap the benefits of my higher earning capacity.

Assuming I can save £20k a year, and there's 800k capital, give or take if we split the capital 62.50/37.50 i.e. she gets 500k and I get 300k we could in theory buy similar properties (which surpass 'needs') and I could save sufficient money in the time to pay off any debt I might have to get to afford the shortfall. I was illustrating this point based on us buying identical houses next door to each other. At some point in the future, it's reasonable for us both to be in the same financial position... past that point other things can happen, however the children will in effect be responsible for themselves at that point. This also makes the income element fall into line.

If we can't come to an agreement then we would be referred to a lawyer led mediation session. I think what is lacking at the moment is my W actually seeing herself in another property... her fantasy and reality are still miles apart and her fantasy doesn't have dreams of being in another home away from me. weirdly she has been super reasonable and almost pleasant ever since the mediation session... almost unheard of levels of communication.

[Fian]

If we can't come to an agreement then we would be referred to a lawyer led mediation session. I think what is lacking at the moment is my W actually seeing herself in another property... her fantasy and reality are still miles apart and her fantasy doesn't have dreams of being in another home away from me. weirdly she has been super reasonable and almost pleasant ever since the mediation session... almost unheard of levels of communication.

Do you think she would ask you to move out of your current home?

[Enabler]

She already has multiple times. She asked me on the basis of me being abusive, but since I am not abusive and she was actually the one having an affair and making no attempt to cease I refused.

Also, I am looking after the kids 57% of the evenings so what’s the angle there?

[livednlearned]

If that's a fair proposal (and within the realm of reasonable, whether it's a formula or not) then you either propose that and hold back other items (can't be custody where I live, ethically we cannot negotiate custody items with financial incentives) that you are willing to compromise on.

Or, you propose something more extreme (from the ideal column) and then negotiate back to fair.

If mediation goes nowhere, then lawyer-led mediation goes nowhere, the next step is court. There, a judge is likely to split things down the middle and treat tens of thousands of dollars with a breathtaking cavalier attitude. Judges don't want you in their chambers and they don't want repeat customers.

Collaborative law is very process oriented.

It helps to think 9 to 10 steps ahead so the process is less exasperating. 

[Enabler]

Nice frank summary, court would not be optimal. I’d be surprised if we got to that point with no mention of what she wants though. Maybe (and it would appear by the responses that I am) I’m wrong to expect her to know what she wants (deeerrrrrrrr BPD) , I expected her to be unreasonable, not void of thought about what her utopia future looked like.

Can I read anything into that?

Thanks

Enabler

[Skip]

Is this near the standard?
https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/Divorce-UK- bpdfamily.pdf

Example:

Children 1 2 3

Base weekly payment £5 + £5 + £5 +

Plus % of net pay 15% 20% 25%

If there is $800 the agency formula I send you says:

$400K - $400K and you pay her 25% of your net salary till kids are 18 (it reduces as each of the children reach 18).

Are you offering her $100K in lieu of 25% of your net salary for 12 years? If so, unless you are making less that $35K, it's not a good deal for her.

£1k a month child support £5k from bonus. £500 a month spousal

Adding $17,000 child support a year, means this is not a good deal unless you make less than $103K.

I think this is how the other lawyer will see it.

Why is it that you don't recognize this agencies recommendations (not rhetorical question).

[Enabler]

Why is it that you don't recognize this agencies recommendations (not rhetorical question).

Skip, as I said before, I have used the online calculator for this very agency to calculate  the monthly amount to be paid for the children and it is £1000 based on 1-2 nights a week and £5k out bonus.

It’s a well used CSA (child support agency) online calculator.

[Enabler]

https://www.gov.uk/calculate-child-maintenance

[livednlearned]

I expected her to be unreasonable, not void of thought about what her utopia future looked like.

The physiological effects of emotional flooding really mess with thinking. Divorce will do that to anyone. To someone with BPD, the flooding of emotion can be psychosis inducing.

She may be unable to think through the consequences of her decisions. The most important thing to her may be seeking the approval of others (not you) and with a mediator, lawyer, judge, that will be thankless.

You're listening for reason and she's listening for rejection/criticism.

Mediation doesn't necessarily require that she has a proposal if you have one she can respond to. "Here's one proposal to start -- it's for both of you. Think this over and next time we can discuss what works and what doesn't for each of you."

At least that gets you some forward motion.

The mediator doesn't know either of you and gets paid the more waffling there is. You may have to lead from the sidelines so the mediator is responding to what you want (if you want it): movement forward.

[Skip]

People are telling you to try to settle this now before the lawyers and/or a judge gets their hands on it. They won't worry about the details - once you put all the financial records in-front of them and give you and your wife give whatever narrative you do or don't have - they will drill down and split it with no problems.

Assets are formula. Child support is formula. Spousal support can be decided pretty easily - and they don't care if they don't get it exactly right - they will just get it done.

Even if this divorce takes months, get this part in the bag.