well, I think this is working great ... for him ...

[patientandclear]

As many of you know ... .  I'm close with my uBPDexbf.  We had no contact (my choice) for 10 months after he said he needed to figure out why he had to turn away from "the most amazing love I've known" (  that's me!), until this past August.  We've been back in touch now for 5 months, often intensely, but with very definite distancing cycles in which we reach some sort of peak of intimacy, he shares things with me he never shares with girlfriends and maybe never with anyone, and then he goes away and isn't heard from for a while.  Then he comes back.  And so on.  He's skated around the edges of discussing that pattern with me, but I've assured him he can come and go as he pleases, and that appears to have been a major source of reassurance for him.

I am in love with him.  But when I got back in touch with him, it was as a friend, nothing more, because I don't think I can tolerate the comings and goings in a romantic/sexual relationship.  Nonetheless, it has hurt me when he distances me and then explains it's because he needs to clarify that we are only friends.  And somehow it hurts on an ongoing basis when he doesn't seek to cross the line, even though my rational mind says to do so would be a mistake.

I value the friendship we have now, which is really more like a romantic partnership without the label and without the sex.

I believe he does not want it to be more (or most of the time, doesn't want that) because he is for the first time in his life (he's 50) living a life independent of chasing some idealized romance that was going to cure everything.  He is deepening his sense of self, learning to exist apart from pursuing the perfect love.  I respect that & think it is essential to his emotional growth.

But.  It still sort of rips my heart out constantly that we cannot have/be more.  When we had a sexual relationship, it was (at least to me) beautiful, so that is haunting.  This plays on my rejection scars even though my mind knows he is not rejecting me, he is manifesting his own fears and limitations, and he is forming with me now perhaps the most enduring, real, trusting, intimate relationship he's ever had.

What I've learned five months into this experiment then: I think this kind of sexless, undeclared romance can work really well for some pwBPD.  Fewer scary engulfing-seeming elements, all of the proximity you want when you want it, but no one can say you're in the wrong if you just need to disappear for a few days.  I think it's making my ex-partner pretty happy, actually, and has become quite important to him.

But what does it mean for me to be this close to someone I used to hear proclaim his love for me, assure me of his endless devotion, make love to me tenderly, tell me it was all the best thing ever?  It is just still very confusing at an emotional level.  I get what it is and why intellectually, and am increasingly good at managing it, with guidance from many of you on this board.  But in my heart, as I sit in bed reading at 1 am and get his texts telling me the best lines from the movie he is watching a few miles away while he sits in his bed ... .  it just feels so mixed up.

To forestall an obvious comment: this arrangement isn't a problem because of its opportunity costs, that is, it isn't preventing me from exploring possibilities with other people.  I have been.  I still will.  But it's not very likely other people will equal the things that are good between us.  If someone does -- fantastic, I'm there.  (I wouldn't end my friendship with my ex -- I'm committed to it -- but I'm sure it would change in intensity.)

The problem I'm feeling is more existential.  It just still hurts to love him.  Is that because I need to do more work on my rejection/abandonment injuries, which existed prior to him but which he blew wide open?  Is it because we are sort of "meant" to be together and there is this blockage that I can do nothing to remove?  Is it because I haven't dealt with my malignant hope that he might be able to just ... .  change ... .  without diagnosis and treatment?  Why is this still so painful?

And lest any non-Stayers think the obvious answer is more distance from him, I tried that, at length.  It hurt worse.

Thanks for any insights you may have about how to transcend or resolve the lurking hurt.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[myself]

Hi. I think it's more it's 'meant to be' but isn't happening at the levels you used to share and could be sharing now. This post brought tears to my eyes. You've always shown how much you feel for him, it shines right through the analysing. I love my ex, too, and we connect in ways I'll probably never find with someone else. When we're friends, we're the best of friends. My story has more anger and stuff thrown my way than yours, which makes it really impossible for me to stay with her or even still be friendly. I wish we could, though. Weird, huh? I've learned a lot from reading what you share, and if I could follow in some of those footsteps I would. It would be good for both she and I and I'm all for that.

I don't have any advice for you, but I feel for you. This is a big fork in the road, in some ways. You don't want to be a person who doesn't feel, and you also can't fully live your life feeling some of that important stuff when it's kind of going nowhere. I'm happy for what you have, but you do deserve more. Who could resist such honest dedication? (I know, I know... .  ) Your pain shows through. Sending best wishes as you go through it. It hurts because you love him so deeply, but in many ways you have to keep it on the surface and you're not getting to fully be yourself. Like a flower only partially allowed to bloom. I've been feeling that way too. I get texts, but they're not nice. But if she and I were 'just friends' now, it would hurt in other ways, so... .  You sound so close to something, P&C, but is it as if you're very thirsty but are facing what is basically a mirage? Sometimes, yeah, that comes from inside of us. What to do? Dive in, or walk away? Drink or dry up?

It does sound like it's going well for him. You're a big part of that, and, for real, a lot of us look up to you for that. It's compassionate and kind of you, and from your heart. Too bad he can't really accept it in the ways you're looking for, and reciprocate. I wish he could. He found someone really wonderful who loves him. I hope you figure this out somehow, someone here helps out with the best answer or something... .   Peace to you and yours.

[united for now]

That reality gap hurts 

What our hearts desire and what we're stuck with... .  What's out of reach... .  Can lead to so much pain.

And the answer you are seeking is simple yet requires determined effort to reach.

Acceptance. complete acceptance that you can't get what you want. That you are too short to play professional basketball or too big to be a horse jockey or that you don't have the job as CEO. Some people struggle against the reality of their situation, chasing after hopes and dreams that aren't realistic or probable. They spend their time and energy till they are spent and exhausted.

Others choose to accept what they have - limitations and barriers - and grow within those boundaries. Accept that they can't play basketball - but you can attend games and be fans or work/volunteer for games. Accept that they can't race thorough bred horses - but you can attend races and work as a trainer. Accept that you aren't the CEO - but that you can make a since in your area/department. This is reality. This is acceptance. And yeah - it hurts.

Pain + non-acceptance = suffering

[Whatwasthat]

Dear P and C,

I’m so sorry you felt like this. You are so entirely deserving of contentment and fulfillment.  I feel sure you are on a good path to reach those goals and please accept lots of hugs to help it feel just  a little better at this difficult stage!   


I think you’re doing a wonderful , loving job in a very tough situation.

It seems to me that you’ve worked very hard and very effectively - and gone through a fair amount of pain – to build a friendship with your ex that has helped you move on a little from the awful feelings of loss and abandonment he left you with.  You’re right also to see how well this friendship works for him.  And actually you and he are both doing a great job of NOT getting more deeply involved  with each other – things would be considerably worse if you both weren’t focused on that. Considering his deep limitations he seems to be doing the best he can – both for himself and for you.

So it seems to me that you’ve managed to build some stability in an inherently unstable situation. That is no small achievement!  And you’ve helped yourself a fair amount by doing this.  You now have the tools and experience that give you a fair chance of keeping the friendship between you and your ex consistently stable. (Though actually I’d be interested to know how much effort this might take on your part on an ongoing basis –  if it ever reaches a point where it’s draining you and stopping you live other aspects of your life to the full then that will have to be ‘reviewed’  I suspect - but that’s a topic for another day.)

But my guess would be that having dealt with ‘the emergency’ of ‘stabilising’ the situation you now have to turn to other vital matters – and that your feelings are letting you know that this is the case.

So what are those other issues? That’s the big question.

I can guess – from my own experience – that one of them might be  making sure you have thoroughly grieved the loss of what you thought this relationship was in the first place.  From what you’ve said  I suspect that – like me – you thought that – rather late in the day - you ‘d miraculously stumbled  on the love of your life.  Why wouldn’t you believe it? Your ex certainly thought this was the case and he did everything in his power – for as long as he was able to sustain his feelings – to let you know this.  Whatever you and I both know intellectually now about how ephemeral and inherently unstable these romantic relationships were it doesn’t change the fact that we have to mourn the loss of what we thought we’d found.  Because all of that seemed so very beautiful.


I’m just wondering if it’s made slightly harder to mourn  when your ex is so very present in your life now - in a ‘different form’.  I don’t think it makes it impossible – but it will probably require a very conscious emotional effort to think – yes – here is the new ‘ex’ – the one who I still feel love for – who still looks and acts in many ways like the man I fell for - but who is in fact a complicated and potentially dangerous person (both to himself and to other people) – and while I juggle his presence in my life - and have continuous reminders of what made me fall in love with him - I also have to mourn the loss of what I thought this man could be to me.  However flawed and unreal I now  know that that relationship was – I valued and rejoiced in it and nothing will ever change that – on some level it will always be a deeply beautiful  thing – and I have to honour that and lament the fact that it’s gone.

 

Sending lots of warm hugs. WWT 



 

[Cardinals in Flight]

Hey P&C,

if that is one single thing I have learned in the reading of your story, is that you are indeed, PATIENT AND CLEAR! 

I know how hard it is to align the heart and mind.  You know my story mirrors yours in many many ways, you know that I too struggle with the same issues, it's been a long and arduous road.  Coming to accept that "its the way it is with BPD" is no small task. 

I'm not sure what the answer is though, in how we continue to grow, love these people we love so deeply, (and that we know love us as well in their own way) and grieve without some of that grief spilling out, without some of those deeper feelings showing.

I told my xBPDg\f that I do love her still, am in love with her still, so she knows... .  I still act like that too.  I don't say it, except when there is a big parting a ways such as an airplane trip, LOL, or on major holidays, hahahah.  I laugh? but there is truth to "reining it in" as far as MY situation goes.  Its those outward appearances, the labels of commitment, and sadly, the intimacy issues that were the biggest hurdles.  Once I learned that, and by learning, I mean when those issues arose, she went away, or pulled back in some significant way, once that was established we've done alright, in fact, we've done well.  I always hesitate to write that for fear of jinxing it 

I know in my heart of hearts that a relationship with a BPD, a lasting r/s of reciprocity isn't going to happen.  I accept that.  I also accept that even pwBPD are deserving of love, and my pwBD has amazing qualities.  I could be in a r/s having great sex, saying "I love you" everytime I turn around to a person who is not HALF  as awesome, and who doesn't get me, or who doesn't share my view of life, who cannot make me laugh til my tummy aches, and be nowhere near as happy as I am with my pwBPD.  I guess my point is, there is give and take in every relationship, trade offs, and while this isn't something I would have sought out?  I certainly feel blessed, and know that she came into my life for a reason... .  

When, and if we end, there has been a ton of emotional growing up on my part.  Hopefully, contrary to everything that I read, my pwBPD will know that she was deeply loved, for who she is, who she really is, a mentally ill person.

If that time comes I will hurt, I will feel as though I'm dying all over again inside.  But I'm trying to not obsess with that and enjoy this ride.  And of course try to awaken the beast, LOL


I think we will know when it is time to disengage, I'm trusting myself to know that.

Trusting the lessons learned here to guide me through.  It isn't easy these relationships, they bring up old wounds to the surface that have to be dealt with.  There is always the underlying idea of "wonder what today holds?" but hey, this could be with any r/s, at least I choose to see it that way, for now.

I wish you peace, I wish all of us here peace within ourselves no matter what route we take. 

"trust your journey"  it's engraved on a trinket I wear.

Im trusting my journey.

CiF

[patientandclear]

Wow, you guys.  It's hard to express how moved I am by those answers.

UFN's point that radical acceptance is the answer -- this is undoubtedly correct.  The more I've done this the simpler everything gets.

It has still left me with this sadness.  I guess I accept the situation, and am not fighting against it, but I have yet to lose the sense that I would rather things be as I initially thought they would, between us.

That feeling prevents me from appreciating what we are doing.  I so appreciate what you said, Myself, CIF & WWT, about the value of this.  I think so too, but hearing you say it is awfully nice.

I think WWT is right, it is a matter of not-yet-completed grieving of what I thought was going to be so beautiful, a complete normal relationship with spending regular time together, sex, open statements of love.  It seemed a beautiful idea while it lasted.

One part of grieving that, for me, is acknowledging that while it seemed lovely to me, it was actually quite unhealthy for him.  He was doing something with me -- looking to our love to rescue him -- that cannot work.  I am glad he's not doing that anymore.

You people are truly wonderful.  I think 90% of any good that comes out of this is due to the steady guidance I've received from you.  Thank you.

[seeking balance]

It's funny, I have felt this way with nonBPD relationships actually.  Radical acceptance, yep that's about it.  Reminds me of the line from that Rolling Stones song... .  "you can't always get what you want, but you get what you need".

Grief mixed with gratitude can lead to acceptance on this. 

Peace,

SB

[LetItBe]

UFN's point that radical acceptance is the answer -- this is undoubtedly correct.  The more I've done this the simpler everything gets.

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but have you read "Radical Acceptance" by Tara Brach?  It's been an enormously helpful resource for me.

[patientandclear]

No, but I will!  Thank you!

It's funny, that's a good indication of how much I've changed over the past several months.  Honestly, not sure I would have accomplished this without getting back in touch with this man--it's made me engage in active restructuring of my thoughts & reactions, and helped get me unstuck.

Before we did reconnect, I had the hardest time with radical acceptance.  I HATED the idea!  Felt like it was accepting something that should not be, something that was wrong.

Now I see that it is accepting what is true.  Without placing value or judgment on it.  Only then can we actually decide what to do -- because only then can we actually understand what the options really are.  Why that simple idea was so hard for me, I don't know.  But maybe having the responsibility to make a decent path forward with this person, rather than just trying to adjust how I felt about a past relationship in my mind, gave me the impetus to take radical acceptance seriously.  If we are in each other's lives, I have to act right.  And I had no idea what that meant.  Be mad at him for distancing me, for example?  I have a values system that supported that ("it's really crappy to ask someone to go really deep with you emotionally & then abandon them!".  Or tell him he can come and go as he pleases ... .  while telling myself I will decide what I feel about our relationship depending on what he actually ends up doing with that freedom.

The latter was the course of radical acceptance and it surely has led to more of a sense of peace than I had using any other approach.

But clearly, I still have to grieve my hopes for it to be other than how it is -- for him to be other than how he is.

I just was cleaning out my bag & came across notes I wrote myself a few months back -- Leaving Board-style notes about how rotten his behavior was and how I want no part of that.  I recycled them today.  I was still at war with reality back then.

[united for now]

No doubt - radical acceptance hurts... .  

Because it means giving up the dreams we had and accepting the reality we've got.

That is a painful process and it deserves to be mourned... .  

It is also a journey, not a destination.

I'm still struggling at times myself   

[kl315]

Patient, I think the relationship you've accepted (for now) with your pwBPD is a testament to how true and selfless your love for him really is. I read something on a blog recently and I think of it every time I read one of your posts.

www.mothermaryswords.wordpress.com/2012/06/09/love-is-a-marathon-not-a-sprint/

[patientandclear]

Wow, KL315, I'm so, so touched by that.

I wish he felt that way.

Today is a perfect example of why I'm struggling.  I think, possibly, I've hurt his feelings by not writing my typical extensive daily email about issues of mutual interest.  This is our main form of communication between the times we see each other; and he only reads email once a day at most -- doesn't have internet access at home (his choice).

I'm overwhelmed with work.  I knew I wouldn't be able to write about the thing I meant to -- my reaction to his favorite book, which he lent me -- in much depth before he read email today, so I wrote something short and light and promised more later.  Then got a terse text, "good luck with all your work this weekend."  Not his normal tone at all.  And I reacted lightly to another text he sent -- maybe also struck him as me not taking him seriously.  Or something.

All day he's been pretty non-responsive to texts.  And now I don't know: is he hurt that I'm not prioritizing him?  Or is he needing space?  It matters somewhat because, if the latter, I would back off entirely, but I don't want to do that if he is already feeling like I am not taking time for him.

As I write those words, I see that I'm making the mistake of thinking I can manage this by what I do.  I should continue to convey my actual attitude for him in a steady way, and let him be responsible for his reactions.  Objectively, I devote a lot of time to our relationship, I am a steady and reliable correspondent, I wrote today to make sure he didn't find nothing from me when he opened his email ... .  I can't really do more than that.  If he is feeling that I am not prioritizing him, which he very well may be -- I've heard him think that about other friends & relatives -- it comes from his own anxieties, and I cannot just make those go away through extra effort.

But compound my knowledge of his disorder and how easily hurt he is, with my own abandonment fears stemming from his abruptly terminating our relationship after pleading with me to commit to him ... .  and I am sitting here tonight swinging between thinking I've hurt his feelings, to wondering if he's out on a date and that's why he's not answering.  I have no real reason to think that and lots of reasons to think he's not dating, but that hurt place in me says "guard yourself!"  So the impulse to be open to him and the impulse to close up are at war right now.

Seems like I need to go meditate ... .  

[united for now]

Whose reality is more real, thus more worthy?

Your reality - work is keeping you busy

His reality - he needs to feel connected to you via proof (long letters)

Which behavior creates healthy connections and which one fosters dependency?


His non-responsiveness is creating anxiety and insecurity inside of you. Yet when you allow that emotion to drive your behavior do you end up making things better for either of you? Or do you wind up back in the same dysfunctional patterns that hurt you and kept him dependent on you?

[1brokenwing]

My dear old friend.  My heart aches as I read your posts.  You answer your own questions and you are in a maze of your own design.  He will never bring to you what you truly need and deserve.  It will continue to taunt you, like that one story what is it ?  The Allegory of the Cave or Dante's Inferno? Where what you need is just barely beyond your reach.  One day i hope to peak in and see you freed of this... .  you are such an amazingly beautiful soul after all!

[patientandclear]

Whose reality is more real, thus more worthy?

Your reality - work is keeping you busy

His reality - he needs to feel connected to you via proof (long letters)

Which behavior creates healthy connections and which one fosters dependency?

His non-responsiveness is creating anxiety and insecurity inside of you. Yet when you allow that emotion to drive your behavior do you end up making things better for either of you? Or do you wind up back in the same dysfunctional patterns that hurt you and kept him dependent on you?

UFN -- yes, exactly.  Perhaps you can see in what I wrote that I can very arduously crank my way through that analysis and remind myself that he needs to soothe himself, that if I were to over-perform and try to compensate for the fact that it bugged him that I didn't write the long letter, that doesn't help him (or me).  I got myself to that point, I didn't over-compensate, I left him alone (and sure enough, he seems to have sorted himself out by tonight, though I can detect that he too is using some self-discipline and making an effort).

But this is so much work for me.  I have to actively counter many intuitive emotional reactions to get to "Wise Mind," and just leave it be, not worry about the outcome, or his reaction, and continue to operate steadily and in a healthy way.  Do you ever get to a point where this comes more effortlessly?

[united for now]

Yes and no.

The more mundane daily stuff gets easy.

The out of the blue stuff that catches you by surprise requires practice to become easier. Eventually it does.

What you focus on becomes easier.

The painful truth is that the intuition that isn't helping you now goes with you into the next relationship.  Wise Mind is part of you - not him. When you move on your skill  (or lack of skill) goes with you. Learning Wise Mind is a gift to ourselves... .   

[123Phoebe]

P&C, you are on the right path, it just takes time and sometimes lots of it

I've been where you are, sending long email messages, waiting for his... .  I became obsessed with them though, checking my email all the time, hitting refresh even to catch one right when it came in , blah.  I finally looked at myself from an outsiders perspective, me sitting home alone all wound up in someone only a few miles away, but not here with me, just waiting for a nugget of attention from him that I could then glean his mood from and figure out how to go about the next interaction.  It was just too much, even for me, Miss Analyze Queen!  Living life in my head.  I even drove by his house a few times, to see if he was home or somewhere else that I could then conjure up all kinds of tales about in my mind! 

I remember when it hit me, on my way to spy on him: He is not the only one with issues, MAN, do I have them too... .  "Codependent No More"!  I actually said that out loud, turned my car around, and have not spied since.  I got serious about taking care of myself.  I thought with or without him in my life, how do I want to live my life?  Waiting for email correspondences, doing drive-by's, or having interesting things going on that make me feel better about myself, thus becoming more interesting to other people as well?... .    Who the he! am I?

I also wanted a 'real' relationship, to build on real interactions in person, not long lengthy emails (electronic relationship), so I stopped typing.  I don't think I did it the right way; I just stopped cold turkey doing anything at all that resembled 'chasing him' or coddling what I thought he needed from me.  I wanted to see how important I was to him and was willing to walk away completely.

He stepped up big time.  He withdrew.  I was by then busy in my own life.  He stepped up.  He withdrew.  He stepped up and continues to do so in baby steps and sometimes leaps and bounds.  He still withdraws, but he doesn't 'disappear', and I don't freak out that he's going to, nor do I worry about how he's feeling because of 'our last interaction'.   As long as I'm not doing things to make matters worse, whatever he's feeling is his 'stuff' that I have no control over.  He continues to relate to me in wonderful ways, he also surprises me in not so wonderful ways, but I accept that's part of the deal and stay focused on my own life, my own path, and the not so wonderful ones are farther and fewer between, which is why they come as surprises now... .  

You're in love with your guy.  Do you want to ultimately get intimate again?  ((sex))?  Or can you really honest and truly only handle being his friend?  The reason I ask is because I couldn't handle only being friends.  I need and want to have sex with him, there's no denying the desire.  I call our relationship a 'romantic friendship', not because we don't have sex, but because wedding bells and children are not what I want; I like living alone, I enjoy my (own) house and pets and gardens and independence, etc... .    And while I suppose I could call him my SO, it's just seems like too much of a label with connotations attached.  I truly feel like I have the best of both worlds right now.  But that's me, bringing my own stuff to the table.  Some might say 'I need to work on myself more, for who wouldn't want that happily ever after?  Go and find it, you deserve it, etc etc etc... .  '  Right now, at this point in my life, I do not want to be married.  I haven't ruled it out... .    Some day perhaps... .    But right now, no, and maybe never.   

It took being in this relationship to find myself   Not the person (I thought) other people think I should be.  And to turn that around, not expecting others to be who I think they should be either.

In what ways is this relationship working great ... .  for you ... .  ?  Is it enough, for now?

[patientandclear]

P&C, you are on the right path, it just takes time and sometimes lots of it

Thank you Phoebe, you are always so reassuring!  Seriously, I always get a lot calmer after reading your thoughts, and your experiences.

I just stopped cold turkey doing anything at all that resembled 'chasing him' or coddling what I thought he needed from me.  I wanted to see how important I was to him and was willing to walk away completely.

He stepped up big time.  He withdrew.  I was by then busy in my own life.  He stepped up.  He withdrew.  He stepped up and continues to do so in baby steps and sometimes leaps and bounds.  He still withdraws, but he doesn't 'disappear', and I don't freak out that he's going to, nor do I worry about how he's feeling because of 'our last interaction'.   As long as I'm not doing things to make matters worse, whatever he's feeling is his 'stuff' that I have no control over.  He continues to relate to me in wonderful ways, he also surprises me in not so wonderful ways, but I accept that's part of the deal and stay focused on my own life, my own path, and the not so wonderful ones are farther and fewer between, which is why they come as surprises now... .  

Well, yes, this is pretty much the story of our last several months too.  I haven't chased, at all.  I haven't tried to fix for him.  He has stepped up, again and again.  He does withdraw but doesn't "disappear."  He comes back.  He is pushing himself to grow in this relationship, that is evident.  The difference between you and me is that I really struggle to remember all of this when he seems to be dysregulating--I plunge into anxiety about what I should be doing differently in order to prevent that.  God knows I should realize by now that that is not the right question.  (I used to be a co-dependent mess, in my marriage.  I no longer act that way.  But I still have impulses to fix, apparently, because I have to subdue them each time my BPD guy has odd reactions.)

If I could get to more of a place of ease, it would be better.  I do understand, and I can do this, I just don't feel comfortable and I have to mind-wrestle with myself too much.  I guess I will take from what you & UFN say that it will get better with practice!

You're in love with your guy.  :)o you want to ultimately get intimate again?  ((sex))?  Or can you really honest and truly only handle being his friend?

Interesting question.  I definitely want to.  There are two issues.  One is mine: I can have sex with him without heading toward marriage, living together, and so on (I have a kid, I've done that, I don't need that), but I don't think I can have sex with someone who is breaking up with me every few weeks because the closeness freaks him out.  I'm fine having sex even if he then steps back ... .  I just can't face an announcement every few weeks that we are over.  I don't think he's considered that he can just sit with his bad feelings about someone he's sexually involved with, and not leave permanently.  He is not diagnosed, not in treatment, there is no indication he thinks he has a problematic pattern in romantic relationships (and he's 50).

However, we are not talking about this subject, so it's possible he has deeper thoughts about it than I am giving him credit for.

The other issue is that he had some sort of quasi-break-up spasm with me this fall, distanced me dramatically, and announced he didn't want to be more than friends, whence the distance.  I responded by assuring him I was fine with that, had had no other intention in getting back in touch, still felt the same toward him as I did before, but would not ask him to give something he wasn't able to give.  He was super grateful for this and these are the terms we're proceeding on.

I know enough to realize that probably what was going on there was that he had an impulse to be more than friends -- he told me his need for clarification stemmed from nothing I did -- and that freaked him out.  So it's not that I think he has no desire.  I'm sure he does.  But I think in his mind, that threatens his journey toward more self-definition.  He has told me that always in the past, he's lost himself in love relationships, and I certainly saw that when we were together in that way.  Now he is trying to define himself and feels that leaves no room for a love relationship.

Honestly I think we could move past this if we could ever talk about it, but I am scared to bring it up because I think he will view that as my having the hidden agenda I promised him I don't have.  He knows what I feel for him and what I want (I think).  If he brings it up, I would talk it through with him to see if he thought he could handle it like your SO does, Phoebe -- not jump from "we care about each other & are having sex" to "this relationship is dominating every waking second."  And if he thought he could not completely implode things every time he's feeling funky, like he was yesterday.

This whole question makes me sad because if I had understood BPD and staying and so on last year, we might have a r/s like you do now, Phoebe.  He wanted to get back together, and he promised he'd talk with me before breaking up again   I was the one who said he needed to figure out why everything had collapsed for him because it would happen again -- his emotions that drove him to break up with me suddenly were very powerful, I was pushing him to acknowledge that -- and I couldn't live with the constant threat that he'd leave me.  Even just that discussion seemed to cause him to have cold feet -- I wasn't just the happy affirming girlfriend he'd had the first time around; I wanted explanations and was suggesting there was some problem with him. Not what he wanted to hear.

We agreed he would work on that question (why he'd blown us up) and I said if he answered it, and had a plan to avoid it happening again, I'd be glad to be in a r/s with him.  Now I know that it is not a simple matter of figuring that out, getting the answer, and putting the problem behind him.  It's a process of learning to deal with those feelings.  I would be willing to be with him as he learns, but I don't quite know how to venture this when I think he is feeling that not being in a r/s is essential to his growth as an individual.

I guess I'm thinking -- if he makes an overture here, I will respond positively (meaning, I will assure him I can deal with a Phoebe-style r/s as long as he can not deal with bad feelings by breaking up), but I shouldn't be the one to broach this, because he will feel it's violating the deal that clearly has contributed to his sense of safety with me.

In what ways is this relationship working great ... .  for you ... .  ?  Is it enough, for now?

It's better than the alternative.  He's fascinating, and good company.  In his own strange way (email!) he's steady and consistent about showing me that I am important to him.  He pushes me in ways few others ever have.  He is pushing and stretching and trying to be a better person in this relationship -- he is matching my effort with his own and I really appreciate that.  It is a work in process and the process feels fundamentally worthwhile.  I am growing in my understanding of how love works and learning radical acceptance.  I like all of that.

Sigh.  That question about whether I want more ... .  it's making me wonder if I need to be clearer with him what I'm open to.  But I have so much abandonment fear/PTSD reactions, I'm really terrified about putting myself out there in that way without an opening from him.  And my sense is that he may not be ready to go there ... .  yet.  His trust in me is growing; I don't think he's ever had the steady, intimate connection we have with a woman before.  On a few recent threads we've been using the analogy of a cat ... .  he is like a feral cat, and he's coming around a lot, but I worry if I try to pick him up, it will scare him and he'll think I'm trying to capture him ... .  

[laelle]

P & C,

While I dont have much more to add, Its all been said very beautifully, I wanted to let you know that I really empathize with you on this.

I too understand what it is like to be totally in love with someone who can never love you as you love them.  I can understand your pain, and rightfully so.  I think you are a remarkable kind and loving person.  I think you have compassion out of every pore.  You are so strong.  You always help to lift me up when I am down.  There is something remarkable for you coming over the horizon, and with all the work you have been doing on yourself you will be happy and healthy enough to meet it full force and find the happiness that you soo deserve.

My shoulder is always available if you need one.   

[123Phoebe]

Sigh.  That question about whether I want more ... .  it's making me wonder if I need to be clearer with him what I'm open to.  But I have so much abandonment fear/PTSD reactions, I'm really terrified about putting myself out there in that way without an opening from him.  And my sense is that he may not be ready to go there ... .  yet.  His trust in me is growing; I don't think he's ever had the steady, intimate connection we have with a woman before.  On a few recent threads we've been using the analogy of a cat ... .  he is like a feral cat, and he's coming around a lot, but I worry if I try to pick him up, it will scare him and he'll think I'm trying to capture him ... .  

I would advise not going there with him, yet... .    You have a good sense right now of where you are with your own fears and where he's at with his.  Work through yours a little bit more.  Again, I was where you are at (not being physically intimate after being majorly intimate) and no way no how was I going to set myself up for that kind of rejection.  It took an awesome concert we went to together that I totally felt free at, happy, looked great, so so so so into the music that I lost myself in it, dancing and just feeling giddy - not because of him per se' (although he took me to the concert), but because it was something that moved me so much that I lost sense of time and space (if that makes sense?  hope so!).  It turned him on.  We've never talked about it, but that moment in time changed everything.  It put the past to rest as far as why we weren't having sex and opened the door (for the elephant in the room... .  ), to why we got together in the first place... .    Attraction!  We just had to learn to like each other, too.  Get to know each other for real, not our false selves.

So that, along with all the work and teachings I had learned along the way (from this website!), kinda brought both worlds together - emotional + physical intimacy.  He did withdraw afterwards, btw   BUT, I didn't chase him down demanding answers like I would have in the past, I did something different.  I appreciated the moment, with confidence that it wasn't a fluke thing - he wasn't going to disappear.  He didn't.  It's different than when I was married and thought married couples should be intimate 2-3+ times a week, sometimes out of duty   In this relationship, when the mood strikes, we go for it   Might be a few weeks before we're intimate again, it isn't the #1 priority; we do all kinds of other fun and interesting things together, too.  Weird to some perhaps?  Not to me.  No pressure.  Simple appreciation of enjoying each other's company.

That might be too much information, but I want you to see another way to have a relationship with someone who exhibits traits of BPD, or if it's even enough for you.  Might not be and that's more than okay.  You have to do what's right for you, find the person that suits your needs.  Might be him!  Might not be.  We don't talk about our relationship as a whole.  I used to try to, I used to want to know every single thing he was feeling and why... .  Needed to clarify everything.  Pushed him away... .  fast!  Now I ask myself why I'm feeling a certain way, then do something about it... .    It's become second nature.  I keep learning new ways to take care of myself and am enjoying it immensely

There are lonely times, for sure!  But realistically?  Those times will present themselves in any relationship.  Life gets in the way of bliss or even contentment, no relationship is perfect, but there are times when it sure feels good  

You are so close to having a major breakthrough, P&C, and when it happens you will feel butterflies towards life!   I'm excited for you!

 

[patientandclear]

That advice sounds exactly right, Phoebe. Thanks so much for sharing that story. Yes, that's exactly how I could see this happening in a good way for us. Not by talking! By feeling.  And yes, what you describe is totally enough for me, optimal even. And objectively, as someone who cares for him, I think it would work for him, too.

I don't think we are quite there.  Recent weeks have brought more steadiness, him dealing with his anxiety about us much more quickly, him taking risks and extending himself.  I think we need some more of that ... .  it's good practice & a good foundation for more.

You are my fairy godmother I think!  Can't tell you how much I appreciate your take on this.  Calmer just reading your thoughts.

[123Phoebe]

Aw good, I'm glad you're feeling calmer.  That sense of calm really helps get us through the storms.