Spinning herself out of control.

[maxsterling]

Help me out here.  I'm having a difficult time understanding this.   

We hired a wedding officiant to officiate and help coordinate our wedding.  The price was much cheaper than we expected for wedding day coordination, so we went with it.  Initially, wife (we are legally married, still wanting to have a ceremony) was excited to have a coordinator to help her.  Well, as with everything in her life, wife tends to want everything from everybody, and gets frustrated when everybody can't do everything.  So, the relationship developed as thus:

- wife initially loves this woman.  Says she thinks they will wind up good friends afterwards.

- wife and coordinator get to know each other on somewhat of a personal level. through text messaging and exchanged emails.

- wife then starts worrying about wedding tasks not getting done 3 months before wedding. Blames coordinator for not being available for instant communication. 

- find out coordinator had been in car accident and suddenly all is forgiven, wife loves her again.

- wife slowly spins out of control on wedding stuff again when coordinator mentions health issues and asks if we can pay her in full soon.  We wind up paying her in full because we trust her.

- immediately, wife thinks we got swindled and intentionally misled. 

- Wife stays in personal communication via text messages with her, still staying friendly.  Coordinator tells wife her health issues in detail, says she is in so much pain, etc, and does not have access to pain pills.  This conversation started because wife had previously communicated to coordinator her own pain issues.

- Wife then paints coordinator black - intentionally being overcharged/swindled, etc.

- we find another officiant, decide to coordinate ourselves, and set about firing coordinator.

- wife then entertains the thought of retaining coordinator on a reduced rate, sends email as such.  Wife is then frustrated because coordinator won't get back to her until the next day.

- and where we are now is that wife now has coordinator painted soo black that she claims coordinator is the source for all her stress and wants to leave a negative review on yelp and hopes it hurts her business.

I JUST DON'T GET IT.  I don't see where this coordinator did anything wrong.  She got sick.  Yes, she was unprofessional in her communication in getting friendly with my wife.  I've kept saying to her that if this is causing stress, to let her go and move on.  Where in BPD is this rooted?  Is it a "screw you, I thought we were going to be friends, you abandoned me, now I am going to ruin you?"   

She is REALLY obsessed about this!  And I say "spin herself out of control' because I see this as my wife causing the stress on herself for not making a decision and instead keeping up unhealthy boundaries with this coordinator, doing things by text message, not being able to STOP when she needs to stop.  A simple, "we don't need you anymore, we want our money back per our contract" would have ended things a month ago. 


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[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[Crumbling]

Hi, Max.

Off the top of my head, I see that she felt in control/out of control/in control/out of control... .could it have been a push/pull thing with this lady?  It's too bad she didn't just walk away. 

Or... .I know when I suggest something to my BPDh, he will do the complete opposite.  I say okay, he says nope, dumb idea.  Could she have been doing something like this?  I've heard others say they use communication techniques to avoid this type of head butting, but I haven't discovered the magic elixir just yet.   I usually just step back and let the chips fall as they may. 

What ever's causing it, it sounds pretty frustrating! 

 ,

c.

[123Phoebe]

What a pain!

You've just described in full detail what's going on with your wife concerning the coordinator.  

That is who she is.  

Care to go into full detail about your feelings concerning this?

I JUST DON'T GET IT.  

Nope.  You're not her

Help me out here.  I'm having a difficult time understanding this.   

What kind of help are you looking for?

[maxsterling]

I guess what I need help with is understanding why she may have painted the coordinator so black.  The general frustration I can understand - I feel it too.  The unprofessional nature of the relationship is also frustrating.  But there is a two-way street on that one.  There has to be some kind of trigger here at plan, and I feel I am completely missing it.  It's not just the coordinator - she's gone through this with every single person that we have hired for our wedding - the dress alterations woman, the photographer, the guitar player, the venue contact person, the dance instructor... .But with all of them, it's just irritation and not this vile wanting of some kind of revenge. 

And I also am at a loss for what to do here.  I've tried validating through this, without much luck.  I will validate that it is frustrating to hire people and not hear back from them in a reasonable time, but that's about it.  I feel like she wants me to declare this coordinator evil with her and file some kind of lawsuit.  Do I do nothing and let her sort out this mess?  The wedding won't be affected if we don't have a coordinator.  But I would hate to see her try and carry revenge out against this woman for doing nothing really wrong. 

[Grey Kitty]

Max, why do you need or want to fix this?

You just said your wife does this to every relationship in her life. Let her do it. Maybe she will learn a better way. Maybe she won't.

If she's been doing it this long, you gotta be deluding yourself if you think you have any influence over it.

[maxsterling]

Max, why do you need or want to fix this?

You just said your wife does this to every relationship in her life. Let her do it. Maybe she will learn a better way. Maybe she won't.

If she's been doing it this long, you gotta be deluding yourself if you think you have any influence over it.

Well, I think you answered my question.  I was simply wondering if there was something in all of this that I was missing or if I had some responsibility here, somewhere considering this is my wedding, too, and this is someone that *we* hired, not just her. 

But the reality is this is *her* mess that she created in her own head, hers to fix or deal with how she wants, and her to face the internal consequences of her actions.  It's not like she doesn't have legitimate frustrations here, but from my perspective these frustrations are very minor compared to the vitriol that fills her now.

[joshbjoshb]

Exactly what you said.

You know the answers.

It's tough. You still think that you can do something, change her.

I with that too.

[maxsterling]

I just got off the phone with her.  The coordinator still hasn't responded yes/no to a reduced role at a reduced rate.  The lack of response was triggering huge anxiety in my wife.  But now she just said that she needs to not think about it, let it go, and I reminded her to not let someone rent that much space in her head.  Hopefully she can do that.  Let the woman respond, we decide we don't need her, and tell her no. 

I still don't see how this got blown up to be so huge.  Two weeks ago, it was simple: "We are sorry to inform you that we decided to go a different direction and we don't need your services anymore.  We know by contract we forfeit our deposit, but we would like the rest of the money we paid to you returned."  Had that been said two weeks ago (like I wanted to), NONE of this other stuff would have happened.  Instead the weird text/email exchange, passive aggressive crap, anxiety, the whole nine yards... .

I guess that is what pwBPD are experts at - making huge deals out of relatively ordinary day to day problems.  It's like my wife got it in her head beforehand that big trouble would happen, worked herself up, and when she didn't get the exact response she wanted, somehow used that as evidence that this woman was being intentionally evil and manipulative. 

   

[Crumbling]

Definitely black and white thinking there, for sure, Max!

I get your point, too, about being a part of this whole thing in a 'we hired her' way.  I get where that you make you feel pulled into the situation.  

Is there a different approach, or a 'lesson learned' discussion perhaps, an option for when you begin working with the new lady?

[maxsterling]

Well, coordinator emailed back with her new price, which is out of our budget.  To me, end of story.  To W, different story.  Why?  Coordinator basically followed her price with a big explanation (a big JADE).  Ok.  I find the explanation unnecessary, but wife sees it and immediately gets panicked and defensive.  I suggested she let me handle it.  She's okay with that.  We then talked about how this situation got bad because of poor boundaries on all sides.  W agrees with this.  I told her I will handle it, and hopefully I can set a good example for her of how to deal with people.   

Wife may be mad that I am being too polite, but as long as we get our money back in a reasonable time, all will be fine, and wife will probably learn something.

[Jessica84]

I don't know if she will learn anything but good for you for taking charge!

I saw "she's okay with that" and "wife agrees with this." Good signs 

[Crumbling]

Great signs!  And     for being the emotional healthier one in the r/s!

It sounds like you two used good strong communication skills too.  Bravo Max & Mrs!

Whether she learns from this is in her control - let her keep it.  You've learned tho, and that's what you can keep.

 

[formflier]

 

Max,

I think there was a question earlier about "why paint them so black"... .or something like that.

Well... .I think it is easier for them to say horrible things if the person is black.  Maybe it is easier to accept their feelings about a person if they convince themselves they are so black.

For me... that part is pretty easy to understand... .I don't get it when they "flip" and someone becomes white... and they ignore the previous blackness... .and vice versa.  I wish I could predict that better.

[maxsterling]

Well, we sent an email to the coordinator telling her we no longer wish to hire her services.  W asked me to handle this because she gets to "emotional and abusive".  We asked for a refund, our contract says she has 14 days to refund our money, and now it is time to just be patient. So far, so good here.

But now she is spinning out because she thinks my family does not care about us or care about her.  That's simply not true and actually quite invalidating to hear.  This started because she sent an email to my sister in law and my sister asking for their assistance, and did not get a warm response, instead got the "I'm too busy" response.  And now she is upset because my brother may not be able to come the night before the wedding to stay in a hotel room with me.  In other words, W is making my life her business, and is out of control about it.  She wants to claim that I am sad and miserable and alone and have nobody there for me.  Again, not true.  I recognize that the people in my life have their own lives, their own families, and their own priorities.  If my brother can't make it the night before, yes it's disappointing, but I understand and am in no way hurt by it.  But W seems to think this is a big deal, and somehow a reflection of how my family must be rejecting her.

I will add that there is probably some truth to that.  Not that they are rejecting her, but they do feel the need to keep strong boundaries and a distance because of my wife's unstable behavior. 

[Grey Kitty]

And YOU need to enforce strong boundaries.

If you are going to let your brother stay where he wants to and arrive when he wants to and be happy that he shows up for the wedding... .which sounds like your attitude... .

Then state that once to your wife and refuse to discuss it anymore.

Nothing good will come joining her in a circular argument.

Whether they love her or hate her, it is their opinion, and her choice what to do about it. You are NOT INVOLVED in that. Keep it that way!

[Cat Familiar]

My husband just did a similar dance with the attorney who is doing his estate plan. He is also an attorney and he became furious when the woman he hired didn't return his phone calls as soon as he thought she should. He was immediately impressed with her when he had his appointment, then painted her black for not calling him back. He knows that there's been a death in her family, but somehow his compassion for her seems to skip over this minor fact.   

It truly is amazing how they can change paint colors so fast--white to black, but no shades of gray. Makes me realize that I'm not the only canvas for their paint splotches.

[123Phoebe]

And now she is upset because my brother may not be able to come the night before the wedding to stay in a hotel room with me.  In other words, W is making my life her business, and is out of control about it.  She wants to claim that I am sad and miserable and alone and have nobody there for me.  Again, not true. 

Maybe she's trying to validate you   That's a pretty good example of how invalidation works.

I recognize that the people in my life have their own lives, their own families, and their own priorities.  If my brother can't make it the night before, yes it's disappointing, but I understand and am in no way hurt by it.   

Did you say this to your wife?  If not, maybe you could using SET, with that being your truth.

[maxsterling]

Well, she worked herself up over the caterer last night, was all set to call the caterer up this morning full of demands.  Stepmom advised her to wait a bit.  By 1PM, she could not wait anymore, and called.  GOt into argument with caterer, caterer said W was most difficult person she has ever worked with.  Then W called me screaming crying and blaming.  Then she talked to her dad, who blamed her for ruining everything.  Now she is stomping around the house, slamming doors, screaming, blaming me... .possibly on the verge of serious self harm or hospitalization.

It's a mess.

[123Phoebe]

Max, is this more trouble than it's worth?

[maxsterling]

Max, is this more trouble than it's worth?

Yes.  But at this point we may be past a point of no return, and better me to just put something together and be done with it than cancel now. 

[formflier]

 

Max,

 

Hang in there dude!

Is this her ceremony... yours... .or a joint thing?

If this is something she is pushing for... .is it better to let her figure it out... .and just be told what time to show up?

Not suggesting... just asking if you have thought this through.

Or... .do you need to take over... .and tell her what time to show up?

This assumes that it is worth the trouble.  123Phoebe's question is a good one... .not suggesting a right answer... .but... one you should think through.

Maybe your wife should think through.

[maxsterling]

Is this her ceremony... yours... .or a joint thing?

Long, complicated story here... .

She thinks it's my ceremony.  Yet, she won't seem to let me handle any of the tasks.

[formflier]

Long, complicated story here... .

Unfortunately... .I can completely relate... and believe you!     

[GaGrl]

Sigh.

I look back at what it took for my DH to extricate himself from a 33 year "marriage"(legal divorce only after a loong peripdof living apart) and I read of wedding angst and just have to ask, "Why?" We were so grateful for a spiritual/emotional/intellectual/physical marriage! Who needed the trappings?

What is a marriage?

I remember the excitement of family and friends and the sharing of my "first wedding" at a young age. was nervous and not as focused on the marriage as I should have been. And I'm a pretty balanced person.

But at some point, one has to ask - what really is the focus and objective of the entire event. I see red flags when ceremony/wedding/party is mentioned in the same breath as divorce. It's as if she (maxsterlng's wife) has a script in her head of major life events, but they are (pardon the pun) disordered... .live together, marriage. Oh, I want a baby, wedding ceremony/celebration, divorce... .and maybe a job/career in there somewhere.

It's supposed to be a marriage... .not a random checklist.

Not meaning to be harsh, but you deserve much more than what you are getting from this.

Don't wait 33years like my DH to put your own happiness as a life goal. Life will slip away.

[maxsterling]

Basically, it's this:

She wanted to elope after we had known each other just a few months.  i said "no" because I want my wedding to be in front of friends and family.  She took that to mean somehow that I wanted a big elaborate wedding.  So, when we got engaged, she just started to run with it.  I would have been happy with 20 people in my back yard, but somehow it just escalated to an out of town event in a garden, 50 people, her dad and stepmom involved, big mess.  She's the one that invited 50 people.  She's the one that wanted it out of town.  She's the one that needed this or that. 

And as things get stressful, it is all my fault.  It's my fault for wanting a wedding.  It's my fault for not doing more to plan (I'm doing all I can do, and she criticizes me for everything I have done).  In other words, she won't let anyone help because she claims everyone is doing it wrong and not listening to her, and yet claims she is stressed out because nobody is helping.  Hiring the wrong officiant is my fault, too.  EVERYTHING is my fault   Me wanting a wedding is ruining her life, is killing her, and will send her to the hospital  

Of course, that is her reality and not mine. 

[maxsterling]

She's drugged herself up with pain killers and xanax, and is mostly in an OK mood now, and somewhat self reflective.  She is a least considering her behavior as a cause of her problems, but isn't quite ready to go there yet.  Not that being drugged up is a good thing, but at the moment better than the rage. 

P appointment is in about a week and a half... .As far as a T, I think she will start seeing our MC on an individual basis for the time being, which I am okay with.  She needs to see someone, and seems to be stuck in finding a new T.

I should also mention (as you are aware if you follow my story), that the incident with the caterer today did not begin today.  She was in a nasty mood this morning and last night, and every other day for the past few weeks has been the same story.  It has nothing to do with the caterer, had nothing to do with the coordinator, me, her dad, or anything.  I mean, all those people may have been triggers, but the "trigger" for the caterer was that this woman prefers to do business by phone call rather than text message or email.   

[Grey Kitty]

Is this her ceremony... yours... .or a joint thing?

Long, complicated story here... .

She thinks it's my ceremony.  Yet, she won't seem to let me handle any of the tasks.

Max, please take a break from what she thinks. Let me ask YOU.

Is this wedding for her, for you, or for both of you. The one that is becoming a train wreck right now, not the one you said you wanted back then.

[formflier]

 

Possible radical plan,

Max... .this is part question... .part idea. 

I'm betting you can put something together really quickly for a ceremony that you will enjoy. 

What happens if you do that... .let your wife and others know... .and then go enjoy the ceremony. 

Granted... .your wife could get pissed and not show up.  But... .that could happen if things keep going down this road as well.


With P appointment coming up in week and a half... .that is good news.  Not that one appointment changes everything... .but I hope you and she will decide to get on the road to working with a P and a T... .and whatever else is needed... .to get her and you to a healthier place.

I'm thinking that appointment is a much bigger deal that the wedding ceremony... .in the long term view of things.

[maxsterling]

My feeling - I really want this.  I really want a nice peaceful ceremony surrounded by good friends and family.  But, in hindsight, had she told me 6 months ago that she did not want this, I would have easily given this up.  But 6 months ago, we both wanted this.  Or at least she claimed she did. 

And at this point, I still want this.  I'd happily take over all responsibilities if she was willing to completely back away from them all.  And that is where we seem to be today.  And so far, I am comfortable so long as she does not try to get too involved again (because I know she will wind up in the same place).

Interesting last night, after taking lots of medication, she was in an okay mood.  Then she chatted online with a friend for a long time, then we started watching a movie, and finally she took me to go pick up my car.  While in the car with her, the caterer had sent her an email saying she was no longer willing to cater our wedding.  I expected this.  But the email was basically a JADE, my W got enraged and felt the need to *immediately* respond.  I didn't stop her.  I felt that was her deal, she needs to process however she needs to, and lear whatever lesson she needs to learn.  So, she typed a long-winded angry response on her phone, I did not stop her from sending it, and then afterwards she broke down in tears.  The self-awareness kicked in.  And the next hour I really got a deep insight as to what goes on in the BPD brain.

Some things she said:

-that she fears everyone will blame her for messing everything up, because that is what has happened her whole life.

- that she is mad at my family for not recognizing how special I am (that's not the way I feel, but she thinks I deserve special recognition).

- that when she is angry at others she takes it out on me, and she doesn't know why

- that she is trying really hard to make everyone happy and now they are all upset with her.

- that she really didn't screw up with the caterer or coordinator, she was only trying to have clear communication with them.

I'm hoping she learns from this.  And I need to step away and let her learn.  I didn't want her to send that angry reply to the caterer, but I had to stay out of it. 

She was mostly in remorseful tears for the next few hours. 

[Crumbling]

Boy, she is really volatile, right now, Max.  I feel for you.  I echo GK, wanting to know what your feelings are around all of this.  I can guess you just want the chaos to end, but there has to be more there... . 

Look, you want your family at your wedding - most of us do, it is your right, and I see this as a positive thing.  I hope her take isn't swaying your opinion of your role in the wedding.  It is your day too, and if you let her emotional chaos sway you from having this, then you will be letting her dictate who you have around you when, and that is a very bad precedent to set this early on in the marriage. 

I hope you set a pattern where you are able to step in and stand up for what you need.  You are in danger of losing yourself in this r/s (I think anyone who has been with a pwBPD long enough can vouch for this), and now is a good time to be alert of isolating behaviours that may weaken you.      You are too important to let that happen, Max.

I have lots of extended family, my h has virtually none.  I know this is why he always dysregs at the mention of family events.  Your w seems to have issue with a lot of your family, do you know why other than she thinks every one hates her (my h tried that one too, but in T he discovered there was too much evidence otherwise for him to hold that reality).

The other possibility I see is that perhaps she is just putting far too much effort and far too much stock into this in a effort to... .?... .show you she can?  show her she can?  be the centre of attention?  What is it?  If she could articulate why this 'big' wedding is so important, perhaps you can work through what can be dropped in the planning process and what needs to happen.

Just food for thought... .


Sounds like you had a pretty tough night.  I hope you got enough rest, luv. 

 

c.