How can you tell that someone is mirroring you?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm curious how one can determine if the person they are interacting with is being genuine, or just reflecting back what seems to fit with the moment?

Does anyone get a   go off when they realize mirroring is happening?

If so, what precipitated it?  What was the "switch."

I think most people decide to show a certain side of themselves when in different company in order to maintain a smoothness to the interactions.  Or rather, our expression of our thoughts goes through some kind of filter to make an interaction make some sense of the experience at the moment... .and be productive for the communication

I suppose, there is mirroring.  

And then. ... .there is mirroring.

What I mean is... .

1.  Mirroring - adjusting and sharing and filtering in a way that facilitates information exchange and understanding of two or more people.

2. Mirroring - adjusting what a person shares, while abandoning most independent thinking, in order to align their communication with others... .not for the purpose of mutual sharing and understanding, and independent processing... .but for a sense of alignment with another to have a shared emotional experience/shared mind experience.


The other day I happened to overhear a conversation of another person.  He was talking about someone I knew and what he was saying was very derogatory.  However, to the person's face (of whom he was speaking about) there doesn't appear to be any tension... .he didn't express any issue with the ideas shared.  It was clear to me that this person was being a people pleaser and putting up somewhat of a mask depending on who he is with.  

So it appears that one way to learn a person is mirroring... . 

1.  Is to catch them "changing expressing opinions/beliefs" based on who they perceive is watching.  (Believes that appear incongruent between the different observations)

2. ?

3. ?

4... .

?

[Sunfl0wer]

I'm curious how one can determine if the person they are interacting with is being genuine, or just reflecting back what seems to fit with the moment?

Does anyone get a   go off when they realize mirroring is happening?

If so, what precipitated it?  What was the "switch."

I think most people decide to show a certain side of themselves when in different company in order to maintain a smoothness to the interactions.  Or rather, our expression of our thoughts goes through some kind of filter to make an interaction make some sense of the experience at the moment... .and be productive for the communication

I suppose, there is mirroring.  

And then. ... .there is mirroring.

What I mean is... .

1.  Mirroring - adjusting and sharing and filtering in a way that facilitates information exchange and understanding of two or more people.

2. Mirroring - adjusting what a person shares, while abandoning most independent thinking, in order to align their communication with others... .not for the purpose of mutual sharing and understanding, and independent processing... .but for a sense of alignment with another to have a shared emotional experience/shared mind experience.


The other day I happened to overhear a conversation of another person.  He was talking about someone I knew and what he was saying was very derogatory.  However, to the person's face (of whom he was speaking about) there doesn't appear to be any tension... .he didn't express any issue with the ideas shared.  It was clear to me that this person was being a people pleaser and putting up somewhat of a mask depending on who he is with.  

So it appears that one way to learn a person is mirroring... . 

1.  Is to catch them "changing expressing opinions/beliefs" based on who they perceive is watching.  (Believes that appear incongruent between the different observations)

2. ?

3. ?

4... .

?

[valet]

This is an insanely interesting question, sunflower.

I think that the answer lies somewhere in the details of how we communicate as human beings. If you recall, words do not make up the total presentation as far as how we communicate. Granted, the 7% rule is a big myth, but the experiments done to get that figure do raise a valid point. The important thing derived was that when non-verbal communication was in contradiction with verbal communication, test subjects almost always took the non-verbal meaning away from the conversation.

For instance, when you ask your partner, “How are you?” and they answer, “Fine!” with their eyes flashing, their mouth a thin slit and tone not-so-pleasant, which do you believe more, the verbal or the non-verbal?

This is my theory, but if someone were mirroring us in a 'normal' way, we would be more prone to spot those contradictions and spot the lie. The dissonances would be stark and easy to see. This is what happens during the devaluation period. The pwBPD just stops mirroring like they used to before we became attached. They knew that we were with them, so there was no point in keeping up the charade.

A pwBPD is probably not lying in any way (at least not in the present moment), and are just mirroring everything that the non does, at least at first. So, maybe the biggest red flag in a conversation with someone that you had just met would be that it just went... .too well? It would probably even seem a bit creepy to a healthy and emotionally whole person, which we were not.

Not the most empirical way to discern, but that's why it's probably advantageous to spend a lot of time with someone that you may be interested in before actually getting involved.

[Sunfl0wer]

Thank you Valet, interesting info!  

I'll be looking for the flashing eyes for fun all day tomorrow.

Yes, I'm thinking that if the conv went way too well... .also if they hesitate to give an opinion first, or find a way to get one out of you first.

My ex was from another culture, his body language was tricky for me.  Sometimes I expected him to look confused because of this... .he was... .then digested, then returned the respose.

I think what I'd like to look for is... .

If I ask the person a question that requires them to analyze their own thoughts and feelings... .how do they handle it?

Now, my ex could easily answer these questions sometimes -usually because he had a stored answer to pick from.  He likely "borrowed" many of his thoughts and feelings.  

However, Whenever he thought out loud in front of me about a new topic he hadn't considered... .he would mess it up terribly.  He would say, "but that is not what I mean!" "You are twisting my words!"

(I forgot about that he did this!)

I realize that many people can have an off the cuff easy answer,

However, if I can combine the above... .with what you say about body language... .

I think it would reassure me if I am introducing a new concept for a person to process... .

1. See that they are pondering it with non verbal.

2. Hear that they can merge their own ideas to create a new understanding

3. Hear that they can hold their own idea, and consider another idea, and decide how to merge or not merge and balance the thought for a "grey" understanding of the matter.  The ability to weigh ideas while considering different views.

Another thing I just thought of... .

It is usually easy to tell if someone is looking at things one sided.  If they are domonstrating black/ white thinking.  I imagine that listening for clues of one sidedness and lacking "grey" are going to increase the chances of mirroring.

Thanks for talking this out with me!  

Oh another thing I remembered... .

My ex became infuriated if I asked questions such as... .

Now suppose xyz happens, how will you want to proceed?

Him: "Well xyz didn't happen, when it does, I'll consider it."

He couldn't consider the affects of his decisions well... .while also considering possibilities of external factors. 

Also if I said... .

"How about I play the devil's advocate here and suppose xyz?"

Same thing as just above, he'd be mad at me for considering possibilities.

He eventually had accumulated a ton of catch phrases to get him out of conversations.

"I'm too tired for this conv"

"I have other things on my mind."

"I haven't thought of that yet."

(To which I'd say... .well go ahead, it's important.  Then the next day, he still hadn't thought of it, he wasn't sure, or dysregulated over me "pestering."

So I guess... .

Someone who can manage a conflict in ideas of two or more people... .and actually be able to compromise! (Vs "give in" to one of the opinions)

[jhkbuzz]

This is what I think (for what it's worth):

Our journey is to understand ourselves - our motivations and what wounds in us drew us to a disordered person in the first place. It's not so much about recognizing "them", it's about understanding ourselves.

I've chosen not to be in another r/s until I get to a place that I know myself well, and have healed from some of my more traumatic wounds. When I do date again, I can't imagine that I will be drawn into the kind of unhealthy dynamic I had with my ex. I'll know too much. And the wounds that were being assuaged by her are ones that I will have healed on my own.

For the record: I've been seeing a T for about a year.

[valet]

This is what I think (for what it's worth):

Our journey is to understand ourselves - our motivations and what wounds in us drew us to a disordered person in the first place. It's not so much about recognizing "them", it's about understanding ourselves.

I've chosen not to be in another r/s until I get to a place that I know myself well, and have healed from some of my more traumatic wounds. When I do date again, I can't imagine that I will be drawn into the kind of unhealthy dynamic I had with my ex. I'll know too much. And the wounds that were being assuaged by her are ones that I will have healed on my own.

For the record: I've been seeing a T for about a year.

Hey jhkbuzz, this is not a judgement. Only a curiosity. I've had that same impulse and understand what it implies.

Have you considered that you're punishing yourself by not looking for a relationship until you know yourself well?

I say this because the process of knowing ourselves well, or maybe 'well enough/good enough', implies that one day we simply don't have to learn any more. In my estimation, knowing ourselves is the internal process of accepting our own tendencies, yet still doing what is healthy in spite of them. Do you think that you'd feel locked in to a new relationship; that you wouldn't be able to leave it if it wasn't working?

Just my two cents, but maybe worth exploring.

[jhkbuzz]

This is what I think (for what it's worth):

Our journey is to understand ourselves - our motivations and what wounds in us drew us to a disordered person in the first place. It's not so much about recognizing "them", it's about understanding ourselves.

I've chosen not to be in another r/s until I get to a place that I know myself well, and have healed from some of my more traumatic wounds. When I do date again, I can't imagine that I will be drawn into the kind of unhealthy dynamic I had with my ex. I'll know too much. And the wounds that were being assuaged by her are ones that I will have healed on my own.

For the record: I've been seeing a T for about a year.

Hey jhkbuzz, this is not a judgement. Only a curiosity. I've had that same impulse and understand what it implies.

Have you considered that you're punishing yourself by not looking for a relationship until you know yourself well?

I say this because the process of knowing ourselves well, or maybe 'well enough/good enough', implies that one day we simply don't have to learn any more. In my estimation, knowing ourselves is the internal process of accepting our own tendencies, yet still doing what is healthy in spite of them. Do you think that you'd feel locked in to a new relationship; that you wouldn't be able to leave it if it wasn't working?

Just my two cents, but maybe worth exploring.

Interesting thoughts, Valet.

This is how I feel right now: I'm in a particular "season" of my life and, for the first time, am dealing with some really painful childhood stuff. I'm not going to be dealing with it forever, but right now I need to focus on me. I'm about to do some EMDR to try to resolve sexual abuse that has severely impacted my r/s's with men and has frustrated me for DECADES; I'm trying to come to grips with my struggles with low self worth (that's the one that got me into my last r/s; I was super susceptible to the idealization); and I'm working to understand the impact that having an anxious, raging mother had on me - what my "go to" strategies and scripts are. These strategies and scripts kicked in in my last r/s and kept me "trying to get it right," in an emotionally destructive r/s. I really should have just gotten out .

I'm not saying I wouldn't date right now; I have and I will continue to. I would take getting into another r/s very slowly. I don't think I'd feel "locked in" to a new r/s; I think I need to "do the work" so I'm not (unconsciously) choosing partners based on their ability to soothe my core wounds.

[jhkbuzz]

error

[Sunfl0wer]

I'm not saying I wouldn't date right now; I have and I will continue to. I would take getting into another r/s very slowly. I don't think I'd feel "locked in" to a new r/s; I think I need to "do the work" so I'm not (unconsciously) choosing partners based on their ability to soothe my core wounds.

Interesting that you bring up the topic of dating.

I hadn't thought in terms of current dating dating. 

That is not where I am at.

I did bring up dating in the past and future in therapy last month.

T replied... .That I should begin by focusing on getting a bit out of my comfort zone in my social interactions, broadening my experiences socially.

As I am doing this, I enjoy trying to understand others, and the interactions more clearly.

Understanding, observing and appreciating the experiences around me, ... .is part of my own journey of understanding and "healing." (I put this in quotes, because Atm, I do not feel that I am broken.)

[jhkbuzz]

I'm not saying I wouldn't date right now; I have and I will continue to. I would take getting into another r/s very slowly. I don't think I'd feel "locked in" to a new r/s; I think I need to "do the work" so I'm not (unconsciously) choosing partners based on their ability to soothe my core wounds.

Interesting that you bring up the topic of dating.

I hadn't thought in terms of current dating dating.  

That is not where I am at.

I did bring up dating in the past and future in therapy last month.

T replied... .That I should begin by focusing on getting a bit out of my comfort zone in my social interactions, broadening my experiences socially.

As I am doing this, I enjoy trying to understand others, and the interactions more clearly.



Understanding, observing and appreciating the experiences around me, ... .is part of my own journey of understanding and "healing." (I put this in quotes, because Atm, I do not feel that I am broken.)

I've been doing this since the b/u and it's been great - I've really enjoyed all the new people I've met!

And, for the record, when I say "dating" I mean dating. Movies, drinks, dinner... .dating is what you do before you decide to have an emotional and sexual r/s with someone. It's interesting, fun, and a great self esteem boost!

[Sunfl0wer]

I'm not saying I wouldn't date right now; I have and I will continue to. I would take getting into another r/s very slowly. I don't think I'd feel "locked in" to a new r/s; I think I need to "do the work" so I'm not (unconsciously) choosing partners based on their ability to soothe my core wounds.

Interesting that you bring up the topic of dating.

I hadn't thought in terms of current dating dating.  

That is not where I am at.

I did bring up dating in the past and future in therapy last month.

T replied... .That I should begin by focusing on getting a bit out of my comfort zone in my social interactions, broadening my experiences socially.

As I am doing this, I enjoy trying to understand others, and the interactions more clearly.



Understanding, observing and appreciating the experiences around me, ... .is part of my own journey of understanding and "healing." (I put this in quotes, because Atm, I do not feel that I am broken.)

I've been doing this since the b/u and it's been great - I've really enjoyed all the new people I've met!

And, for the record, when I say "dating" I mean dating. Movies, drinks, dinner... .dating is what you do before you decide to have an emotional and sexual r/s with someone. It's interesting, fun, and a great self esteem boost!

Oops... .it appears I have a typo. Lol!

I did not intend to have the word dating twice!

I haven't done any type of dating... . or even "dating dating!"

Good to hear you are finding a good path for yourself jhkbuzz.

I'm enjoying being an observer of interactions atm... .it can be interesting!

I imagine, my next move out of my comfort zone is some friendly planned outings... .which I haven't done yet.  I've been going places solo, sometimes bumping into familiar faces.

[rotiroti]

mirroring for me is when you give up a personal boundary to please another person

[Sunfl0wer]

mirroring for me is when you give up a personal boundary to please another person

Humm... .

However, when my ex mirrored me... .

He was not giving up a boundary to do it.  He didn't have one established or a concept of one in which to give up.  

So maybe it is both... .

Maybe mirroring is reflecting values to match another's, regardless of your own.

[rotiroti]

mirroring for me is when you give up a personal boundary to please another person

Humm... .

However, when my ex mirrored me... .

He was not giving up a boundary to do it.  He didn't have one established or a concept of one in which to give up.  

So maybe it is both... .

Maybe mirroring is reflecting values to match another's, regardless of your own.

I think you hit the nail on the head. BPDers to my understanding are a blank emotional canvas. They pick out the best parts they like and mirror it back... .until, well you know... .


I really enjoy these threads by the way!

[valet]

Interesting thoughts, Valet.

This is how I feel right now: I'm in a particular "season" of my life and, for the first time, am dealing with some really painful childhood stuff. I'm not going to be dealing with it forever, but right now I need to focus on me. I'm about to do some EMDR to try to resolve sexual abuse that has severely impacted my r/s's with men and has frustrated me for DECADES; I'm trying to come to grips with my struggles with low self worth (that's the one that got me into my last r/s; I was super susceptible to the idealization); and I'm working to understand the impact that having an anxious, raging mother had on me - what my "go to" strategies and scripts are. These strategies and scripts kicked in in my last r/s and kept me "trying to get it right," in an emotionally destructive r/s. I really should have just gotten out .

I'm not saying I wouldn't date right now; I have and I will continue to. I would take getting into another r/s very slowly. I don't think I'd feel "locked in" to a new r/s; I think I need to "do the work" so I'm not (unconsciously) choosing partners based on their ability to soothe my core wounds.

Ah, I misinterpreted. 

I'd say that we're in the same boat then!

[jhkbuzz]

Interesting thoughts, Valet.

This is how I feel right now: I'm in a particular "season" of my life and, for the first time, am dealing with some really painful childhood stuff. I'm not going to be dealing with it forever, but right now I need to focus on me. I'm about to do some EMDR to try to resolve sexual abuse that has severely impacted my r/s's with men and has frustrated me for DECADES; I'm trying to come to grips with my struggles with low self worth (that's the one that got me into my last r/s; I was super susceptible to the idealization); and I'm working to understand the impact that having an anxious, raging mother had on me - what my "go to" strategies and scripts are. These strategies and scripts kicked in in my last r/s and kept me "trying to get it right," in an emotionally destructive r/s. I really should have just gotten out .

I'm not saying I wouldn't date right now; I have and I will continue to. I would take getting into another r/s very slowly. I don't think I'd feel "locked in" to a new r/s; I think I need to "do the work" so I'm not (unconsciously) choosing partners based on their ability to soothe my core wounds.

Ah, I misinterpreted. 

I'd say that we're in the same boat then!

<img src="www.makemovies.co.uk/curriculum/curriculum_images/rollers/rowboat.gif">

[ambivalentmom]

So maybe it is both... .

Maybe mirroring is reflecting values to match another's, regardless of your own.

That's the answer I was leaning towards.  I also love JKHBUZZ's statement about understanding yourself, but I was thinking of it as being secure in yourself.  A lot of people challenge who they are when they are looking for a soul-mate.  They really want to be genuine and reflect their partner's interests.  Maybe they truly believe they are a perfect match when they are not. Maybe it plays out like this:


Two people share pleasantries:

Situation 1:

boyfriend, "I hate shaving cats" smiling

girlfriend, "I love shaving cats, it's the goats that bother me" smiling  (means: I am secure in myself, I can have different opinions)

Situation 2:

boyfriend, "I hate shaving cats" smiling

girlfriend, "I hate shaving cats too, let's not shave cats together!" smiling (means: I hate shaving cats, I'm so glad he does too)

Situation 3:

boyfriend, "I hate shaving cats" smiling

girlfriend, "I hate shaving cats too, let's not shave cats together!" smiling (means: I can't believe I found someone to passionately hate shaving cats together)     (subconsciously means: I actually love shaving cats, but if he finds out, he'll leave me because nobody has ever loved me because I'm horrible and as long as I can keep him from finding out, we'll be happy, but he will find out, so I will have to do whatever it takes, so he can't leave, so everyone knows what a great person I am because he didn't leave... .)



So the only way to find out if your potential partner, friend, whatever is a "situation 3" is by spending time together, talking it out, and looking for signs that she might love shaving cats.  If she does, why did she lie about it?  Are you committed to work on the core reason with her? Is she?



So I have been slowly finding out new things that my current husband doesn't like doing with me.  He built up anger/was upset about me going fishing by myself (found out he doesn't like it, but me doing it means he's not fulfilling his role as husband and doesn't want me to do it).  I told him, "I am still going to fish, it's something I want for me, and after 20yrs of fishing we'll still be together because you are a wonderful husband."

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi AM,

That all makes sense, thank you!

So the only way to find out if your potential partner, friend, whatever is a "situation 3" is by spending time together, talking it out, and looking for signs that she might love shaving cats.  If she does, why did she lie about it?  Are you committed to work on the core reason with her? Is she?

The thing is with my ex... .We did spend a lot of time together.  I was not able to see the signs because as long as I was near, he was mostly reflecting my values back to me... .even if in the company of others, when not interacting with me.  Even if we were in other company, as much as he is a people pleaser, he mostly aligned himself with my values... .and decided to hate shaving cats.

I think I just realized something different though... .

When I met him, he was recovering from a divorce.  Normally I expect a person to need considerable time to heal a r/s... .before entering another.  :)ivorce is a huge time of confusing identity to begin with... .so it is likely that I may have dismissed hints of lacking sense of who he is... .because I expected him to be redefining himself... .therefore, nothing appeared unusual.  

Including the idea in my dating philosophy... .It may be wise to veer away from anyone in the middle of crisis, or a life changing event... .or really close to either.  Or rather... .look for a demonstration of stability lasting for the past year or more.

[fromheeltoheal]

Physical mirroring can make mirroring easier to understand.  If you sit opposite someone and mirror their body language intentionally as you have a conversation, match their breathing, match their tenseness or looseness, match their facial expressions, arm and hand positions, all of it, and stay there for a while, and then cross your legs, they will cross their legs, the motivation for which being unconscious, but it happens.  No really.  And folks who get good at it can be master manipulators, it comes in really handy in sales.

Anyway, borderlines mirror to affect an attachment, yes, but also to take the good they see in their partner as their own, to complete themselves, and maybe to use the good to counter the bad they see in themselves.  We are providing a vital service in that sense, handing out our good like that, and borderlines just take something we all do to the extreme; ever hung out with someone you admire and find yourself feeling better around them?  Or worse, depending on what we make it mean.

[Sunfl0wer]

Physical mirroring can make mirroring easier to understand.  If you sit opposite someone and mirror their body language intentionally as you have a conversation, match their breathing, match their tenseness or looseness, match their facial expressions, arm and hand positions, all of it, and stay there for a while, and then cross your legs, they will cross their legs, the motivation for which being unconscious, but it happens.  No really.  And folks who get good at it can be master manipulators, it comes in really handy in sales.

Anyway, borderlines mirror to affect an attachment, yes, but also to take the good they see in their partner as their own, to complete themselves, and maybe to use the good to counter the bad they see in themselves.  We are providing a vital service in that sense, handing out our good like that, and borderlines just take something we all do to the extreme; ever hung out with someone you admire and find yourself feeling better around them?  Or worse, depending on what we make it mean.

I have observed physical mirroring and tune into this on occasion.  It is something I can easily be aware of as long as I think to be.

Do you feel that you can just as easily determine if someone is mirroring your values?

[fromheeltoheal]

Physical mirroring can make mirroring easier to understand.  If you sit opposite someone and mirror their body language intentionally as you have a conversation, match their breathing, match their tenseness or looseness, match their facial expressions, arm and hand positions, all of it, and stay there for a while, and then cross your legs, they will cross their legs, the motivation for which being unconscious, but it happens.  No really.  And folks who get good at it can be master manipulators, it comes in really handy in sales.

Anyway, borderlines mirror to affect an attachment, yes, but also to take the good they see in their partner as their own, to complete themselves, and maybe to use the good to counter the bad they see in themselves.  We are providing a vital service in that sense, handing out our good like that, and borderlines just take something we all do to the extreme; ever hung out with someone you admire and find yourself feeling better around them?  Or worse, depending on what we make it mean.

I have observed physical mirroring and tune into this on occasion.  It is something I can easily be aware of as long as I think to be.

Do you feel that you can just as easily determine if someone is mirroring your values?

I don't think as easily, I think it takes time to see what someone's values are, and then notice if they are adopting yours.  Of course with someone with malleable values or none of their own, how would you know if they're adopting yours right away?  We'll now know because it feels like idealization, been there, done that, ain't goin' back.

[Sunfl0wer]

Thanks fromH2H,

I think it is easier if I am interacting with a person that I have known previous to us trying to know each other more closely.

Harder if it is a person I meet for the first time and admires me from first meeting.

Thx tho... .this all helps

Edit: also, i do not think I got the idealization phase so hard.  I actually correct people quickly if they seem to go along passively or over-compliment me.  I'm not comfortable hearing good things about me... .so my partner likely realized this... .and did not over compliment.  So... .idealization... .was not so strong.  Odd... .but interesting... .never thought of this. Makes sense to me tho.

[vortex of confusion]

Harder if it is a person I meet for the first time and admires me from first meeting.

I don't think it is as easy to tell with values because, in most cases, it isn't really necessary to have shared values. If you do business together, the values around business are the ones that will be important. If you are just dating or just friends, there are some values that are not going to be important to the relationship.

What about people you admire? Does admiring somebody mean that there is a greater likelihood for mirroring?

[fromheeltoheal]

Harder if it is a person I meet for the first time and admires me from first meeting.

I don't think it is as easy to tell with values because, in most cases, it isn't really necessary to have shared values. If you do business together, the values around business are the ones that will be important. If you are just dating or just friends, there are some values that are not going to be important to the relationship.

What about people you admire? Does admiring somebody mean that there is a greater likelihood for mirroring?

Yes, I say so because when we admire someone, is it not mostly their values we admire?  We can say we admire what they do or who they show up as, but all of that comes out of the values they live by anyway, and to admire that is to want that on some level, so we'll be drawn to it consciously or unconsciously, and start mirroring it, whether or not we realize it and whether or not we're very good at it.

[Sunfl0wer]

Harder if it is a person I meet for the first time and admires me from first meeting.

I don't think it is as easy to tell with values because, in most cases, it isn't really necessary to have shared values. If you do business together, the values around business are the ones that will be important. If you are just dating or just friends, there are some values that are not going to be important to the relationship.

What about people you admire? Does admiring somebody mean that there is a greater likelihood for mirroring?

Humm... you make a good point about business values vs personal r/s values.  Something to think on for sure.

[Sunfl0wer]

Harder if it is a person I meet for the first time and admires me from first meeting.

I don't think it is as easy to tell with values because, in most cases, it isn't really necessary to have shared values. If you do business together, the values around business are the ones that will be important. If you are just dating or just friends, there are some values that are not going to be important to the relationship.

What about people you admire? Does admiring somebody mean that there is a greater likelihood for mirroring?

Yes, I say so because when we admire someone, is it not mostly their values we admire?  We can say we admire what they do or who they show up as, but all of that comes out of the values they live by anyway, and to admire that is to want that on some level, so we'll be drawn to it consciously or unconsciously, and start mirroring it, whether or not we realize it and whether or not we're very good at it.

Well, then there was a gal I realized at work is a people pleaser.  I do not believe she is mirroring based on admiration, rather for fear of not gaining favor of the person... .fear of being challenged and of rejection.

[rotiroti]

Darn it guys, now I'm going to be paranoid while I'm at my second T session! It didn't really cross my mind, but there were times I caught myself mirroring the T. When she would cross her legs, I would inadvertently do the same with mine. I'm glad I didn't have a mug in my hand because I'm afraid I might have subconsciously mirrored her!


I want to share what I wrote in another post about FOG vs empathy. I think it relates to mirroring to some extent, especially the way we're defining it here:

I work in a hospital and when dealing with grieving or concerned patients/family members, I am able to utilize empathy. Drawing upon past personal experiences and feeling how they feel, I can create rapport. FOG was never an issue in these patient-physician interactions as there are clear set emotional boundaries. You can definitely be an empath without being lost in the FOG.

However with my r/s with my BPDex that was a whole another story. There was a complete lack of boundaries. It was as if our psyches were fused. At one point I felt like her emotional needs were also mine in some sense -- We had known each other for many years and her idealization was intoxicating. All of our values were the same, future goals were somehow identical, and even our dreams seemed to be in sync. So why not assume our emotions were on the same channel too?

I think back to my past relationships and this was never the case. While I became emotionally intimate with previous partners, we were always two separate entities. We could empathize with each other and it was a give and take of sorts. With the BPDex it was easy for me to confuse emotional intensity with that of intimacy. When she dysregulated I tried to understand it or thought that I was at fault for not being able to fix something that was essentially me (or similar to myself). It was a completely unhealthy bond for me... .and the failures to soothe that tempest really triggered the FOG... .and it just kept getting more and more intense.


whew!

In conclusion, yes I agree that mirroring is a very normal reaction, with a potential to be detrimental!

[Sunfl0wer]

Darn it guys, now I'm going to be paranoid while I'm at my second T session! It didn't really cross my mind, but there were times I caught myself mirroring the T. When she would cross her legs, I would inadvertently do the same with mine. I'm glad I didn't have a mug in my hand because I'm afraid I might have subconsciously mirrored her!


I want to share what I wrote in another post about FOG vs empathy. I think it relates to mirroring to some extent, especially the way we're defining it here:

I work in a hospital and when dealing with grieving or concerned patients/family members, I am able to utilize empathy. Drawing upon past personal experiences and feeling how they feel, I can create rapport. FOG was never an issue in these patient-physician interactions as there are clear set emotional boundaries. You can definitely be an empath without being lost in the FOG.

However with my r/s with my BPDex that was a whole another story. There was a complete lack of boundaries. It was as if our psyches were fused. At one point I felt like her emotional needs were also mine in some sense -- We had known each other for many years and her idealization was intoxicating. All of our values were the same, future goals were somehow identical, and even our dreams seemed to be in sync. So why not assume our emotions were on the same channel too?

I think back to my past relationships and this was never the case. While I became emotionally intimate with previous partners, we were always two separate entities. We could empathize with each other and it was a give and take of sorts. With the BPDex it was easy for me to confuse emotional intensity with that of intimacy. When she dysregulated I tried to understand it or thought that I was at fault for not being able to fix something that was essentially me (or similar to myself). It was a completely unhealthy bond for me... .and the failures to soothe that tempest really triggered the FOG... .and it just kept getting more and more intense.


whew!

In conclusion, yes I agree that mirroring is a very normal reaction, with a potential to be detrimental!

Re T mirror- Lol!

I like the bit about confusing intensity with intimacy.  I read this somewhere else this week and it is registering deeper this week.  Thx!

[fromheeltoheal]

Harder if it is a person I meet for the first time and admires me from first meeting.

I don't think it is as easy to tell with values because, in most cases, it isn't really necessary to have shared values. If you do business together, the values around business are the ones that will be important. If you are just dating or just friends, there are some values that are not going to be important to the relationship.

What about people you admire? Does admiring somebody mean that there is a greater likelihood for mirroring?

Yes, I say so because when we admire someone, is it not mostly their values we admire?  We can say we admire what they do or who they show up as, but all of that comes out of the values they live by anyway, and to admire that is to want that on some level, so we'll be drawn to it consciously or unconsciously, and start mirroring it, whether or not we realize it and whether or not we're very good at it.

Well, then there was a gal I realized at work is a people pleaser.  I do not believe she is mirroring based on admiration, rather for fear of not gaining favor of the person... .fear of being challenged and of rejection.

So is she mirroring or just kissing butt?

[Sunfl0wer]

So is she mirroring or just kissing butt?

Lol! Nah, she is a sweetie.  She is not trying to get anything.  I think she is afraid to be disliked or fearful of someone wanting to conflict with her. 

When I think kissing butt... .the person is seeking favoritism.

For her... .she seems fearful of conflicting ideas and being challenged enough to have to defend values.

[ambivalentmom]

I think I'm the lady that works at Sunfl0wer's office.  I'm genuinely wanting to connect and overly happy    (I think I'm genuine? Now I'm Paranoid!)

In your case Never, you are probably just showing your T that you are fully engaged and committed to the conversation.  As long as you don't sit in and mirror for the rest of her sessions, you should be ok. 

The thing is with my ex... .We did spend a lot of time together.  I was not able to see the signs because as long as I was near, he was mostly reflecting my values back to me... .even if in the company of others, when not interacting with me.  Even if we were in other company, as much as he is a people pleaser, he mostly aligned himself with my values... .and decided to hate shaving cats.

I agree with your quote and do see a lot of that with my husband.  He's 45 and recently diagnosed with Asperger's.  There were a lot of things he mirrored me on for two years of dating, three years of marriage, and just now starting to change.  I was a little concerned, but his core beliefs are remarkable and it comes out in his actions.  When I went to court for my possible BPDex for child support (6 years non-payment), my DH bought me food/gave me money without me asking.  He always works and will work after retirement.  He came and played with my D12 (then D8) when I had to work and possible BPDex cancelled his weekend short notice.  I have been faced with new challenges with his behavior quirks, but he is also faced with new challenges on how to connect with his wife and girls. 

He mirrors how I express emotions with my girls.  The mirroring is fake, but loving them is genuine (he just hasn't gotten the hang of smiling yet).