Either she gets to comes with me or I have to find a new job...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Ok so I knew i had the possiblilty of another work related trip coming up. She was able to go last time and was bored out of her skull as I told her she would be. Now it was brought up again I go back for additional training. I knew about this for a week or 2 but had to tell her now since I know when I am to be going.  She is freaking out that she has to be allowed to go or I need to find a new job. That this is BS and I am not handling this properly with her. She says I can't be trusted so she has to go and keep an eye on me.

Thing is I don't want her to go. I can not focus on what I am doing when I am there. I am only worried about making sure I can get out at the time she is expecting me to and not a minute later. Last time I said I was going to be a few minutes late and turned out ot be about 30... .it hit the fan when I got back to the hotel... .She was complaining she was shut in all day... .again somthing I told her would be the case.

So now I don't know how I should handle this. I don't want her to go and at the same time if she doesn't go I know things won't go well at all. I don't think she would try to sabatoge things but I wouldn't put it past her.  She was able to piss off the US Army while I was in boot camp when we were first married and that basically got me kicked out.

[Cipher13]

Ok so I knew i had the possiblilty of another work related trip coming up. She was able to go last time and was bored out of her skull as I told her she would be. Now it was brought up again I go back for additional training. I knew about this for a week or 2 but had to tell her now since I know when I am to be going.  She is freaking out that she has to be allowed to go or I need to find a new job. That this is BS and I am not handling this properly with her. She says I can't be trusted so she has to go and keep an eye on me.

Thing is I don't want her to go. I can not focus on what I am doing when I am there. I am only worried about making sure I can get out at the time she is expecting me to and not a minute later. Last time I said I was going to be a few minutes late and turned out ot be about 30... .it hit the fan when I got back to the hotel... .She was complaining she was shut in all day... .again somthing I told her would be the case.

So now I don't know how I should handle this. I don't want her to go and at the same time if she doesn't go I know things won't go well at all. I don't think she would try to sabatoge things but I wouldn't put it past her.  She was able to piss off the US Army while I was in boot camp when we were first married and that basically got me kicked out.

[popeye6031]

You are between a rock and an extremely hard place here.  No way to win.  Though one way has maybe more positives than the other.  That being that not bringing her would allow you some peace, except for the barrage of texts or phone calls you will get. 

But then there is the possibility of her causing trouble for your work.

I would say put your foot down and say "you ain't coming, end of story".  I think if you try to be diplomatic about your answer, it gives her leeway to manipulate you.  If she then threatens to make trouble for your work tell her "you do that and we are done, do you understand me?"

I tried this recently when my fiance said she was gonna email me friends to say that I was not going out with them.  Now I know you are in a different situation being married for so long but what have you got to lose?  Either she plays ball or she does not and you get your chance to get away from her.  You will not be the one losing out.  If anything, it would probably be the FOG that is keeping you there.

[Cipher13]

This has already given me a migrane. This completely sucks. Under no way can i think of does this allow me to do my job effectivley.  I so am leaning towards you advice that she aint goning.  That will end very very very badly... .actually it won't end it will just be the giant mushroom cloud you will be able to see from space.

Now the texting and phone calls wouldn't be an issue or maybe they would as its actually out of country and we don't have aplan to cover those costs for international texting/calling... .

Geez this sucks every bit as bad as I feared it was going to. Except now its real.

[popeye6031]

When do you have to make a decision on it?  You say the job is abroad.  Who will pick up the expense of flying her there etc?  I suppose that is you?

It does not look like any way is gonna work for you.

[Cipher13]

The decision is made. Its not too far of a drive as I drove it before. But she seems to thing what ever the added cost we would have to pick up is work preventing what ever blow up would happen as a result. She is now complaining and has been for a couple days that I do not put her first all the time as I should. First thought in morning... her. First thought at work... .her. First thought after the thought I just had... .her.  Also if I am alone I should be rendered completely helpless and functionless without her.  Said that is how I feel with her.

[Cipher13]

Said that is how I feel with her.

Sad that is how I feel with her. I didn't actually tel her that.

[popeye6031]

Exactly, would be great if you could tell her.  Though I imagine that would erupt into a huge argument.  I know that my fiance as these feelings that when I am not with her I should be miserable and not able to function properly and it frustrates her when I am not like that.

So, you are driving back and forward then?

[GaGrl]

I'm going to tell you something that you probably won't want to hear, and it's coming from my having a 35 year career in HR and talent development.

Many times over the years, I've seen employees whose performance on the job was negatively affected by a spouse who required constant attending and communications throughout the day.  I've seen sales reps who couldn't focus on phone work because of a spouse who called 10-12 times a day.  Many, many times I've seen seminar attendees bring a spouse and then not be able to engage in evening activities that were planned for networking or group homework assignments required for the class, because the spouse expected to be entertained as if the business trip were a social vacation.

In addition to performance, but also perceptions of an employee's professionalism can most definitely be affected by a spouse's behavior. 

In my professional opinion, your spouse's needs are detrimental to your ongoing career growth.

[Cipher13]

Gagrl

Your words ring in my head loud and clear. I know and understad 100% what you are saying and I couldn't agree more. I am already experiencing loss of focus. I have tried to set boundaries with texting. A couple times it held but then fell apart.

I know she is getting worse. As all these things she is asking of me has never been this drastict. They have been there at much smaller degrees and frequencies.

The only thing that will fix this it to leave. I want to. I need to. I don't know what to do to make that happen. I don't have kids. I don't have many things. I have my job. I have family that misses me but they are not close to my job at all. If I didn't have to work I'd run away. I would so hide out some place. Leave my cell phone on the kitchen table with a very short note.

Why can't I? Whats stopping me... .AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :'(

[Cipher13]

I left a note this morning for her. It is as close as I have gotten to it being a break up note. Last night was another bad one. I didn't kiss her goodbye again when I had to comeback home on my way to work because I forgot something. I went in not wanting to wake her. Get a text 5 mins later that I am a jerk for not even thinking of coming to see her again before I left the 2nd time.

Well that started a whole day of texting arguments that was made worse by me not responding when she thought I should or how I should. The topic of counseling came up. We have a joint session scheduled for Tuesday. She said she isn't going because it is my fault and I should be the only one that needs to go. She will just sit silent with T or be raging like she was last night. In the note I said we have to both go to counseling to work through this. If we don't there are 2 options left... .#1 We stay as is and argue all the time. #2 We break up. I am not wanting to do #2 as I think we can both get help. And I won't contiue doing #1 either. Its not healthy for either of us.

I have not heard from her yet today. I know she read it but she has not responded to my text telling her I dropped the dogs off at the groomers. I'm not worried abou ther not replying. I actually enjoy the silence.

[wishfulthinking]

Good for you, Cipher13.

Keep us updated on how she reacts and how you feel about it all.  I wish you the strength you need right now.

[Cipher13]

She responded... .

"Your "apology" means nothing; all it is are empty words that are not followed up with visible actions to show that you MEAN that apology.  I do not see any need to go to counseling to fix something that you have already been given the tools and the explanation of what to do MANY times and you continue to choose NOT to do these things.  YOU could have "fixed" this long ago by simply doing the things that counselor told you to do SEVERAL years ago.  You continue to be in this mess that YOU created because of YOU and your inability to follow through in a consistent manner!  So do NOT tell me that you are doing these things because you are NOT doing them CONSISTENTLY! Find the key words and figure it out or do you need someone to spell this out for you too?"

Oh I also told her I can't reschedule the dates for the trip and she said her work won't let her off at that time so then I should back and not bother coming back... .

[wishfulthinking]

Whatever you do, don't tell her it's a shame she can't take off work because she would have been able to go, you know... .just to make things smooth, because then miraculously, she will be able to get off work and you will be stuck.  I got in trouble at work recently because mine showed up here and caused issue.  I've been here 11 years.  Never been in trouble.  Nice, huh?  They just don't care.

[Cipher13]

She has wanted to come to work. They have issued a new policy with security here. Not company id badge no entry. All doors are locked. However she has the ability to make an issue via the phone. Don't think she is there yet. Hopefully never is.

I found out that an apology via text isn't and can't be considered a valid and real apology unless its in person. But an apology via text has to happen anyway at the right time.

So far she isn't able to go. She will have to get her work to change her schedule. Hope that don't. I am tryign to get her to focus blame there but doubt I will succeed.

[Cipher13]

I have a question and maybe this should be a separate post. My wife is uBPD from everything I have researched has told me this. Last night during an argument I was noticing myslef getting heated and harsher so I stopped myself and replied in a cooler calmer tone... .

Her responce to that was "You can nock that crap off its like you have Borderline Personality Disorder. You do that crap all the time." I was shocked she even knew BPD but she doesn't know what it really is I don't think. I so wanted to just explain it and say... "You! You have this what yo are doign right now. This is an example of that. Not what I am doing!"  But i bit my tounge and said sorry but I don't think you even know what that is. "So now you are a damn Pschologist or something.  I quickly backed out of that converstion.

Anyway my question... .ever have you pwBPD say you have it or some other type of mental illness?

Also are all the things that are not true that they say about you really how they feel about themselves and don't know it?

[wishfulthinking]

Cipher13,

Mine loves to tell me I do things he actually does and he calls me names that I'm pretty sure he is actually feeling about himself, and he will tell me I feel such and such way about him, when in reality he's just made me feel that way due to a direct result of his actions.  Such as last night after his forceful incident, when he got mad because I stopped it, I told him he shouldn't be mad, he made me feel like trash.  Now, he is saying I treat him like trash and using the same words I used to describe how he made me feel when he crossed the line. 

Mine tells me in one breath he has mental issues, but in another tells me he's smarter than all the therapists and he doesn't need any help because it's everyone else with the problem.

[Cipher13]

She is trying to get me to move the trip to another week that works for her so she can go. This is not going to happen. If the right poeple at work knew I was trying to move schedules around just so she can go then I'm sure I'd be in trouble.

[allibaba]

I know she is getting worse. As all these things she is asking of me has never been this drastict. They have been there at much smaller degrees and frequencies.

Um Cipher... .she managed to get you out of military service because she demanded it and made herself enough of an annoyance that you were discharged.  She has been this drastic before, my friend.  That wasn't small and her calling basic training over and over and over shows a pattern of frequency and history.

I would say put your foot down and say "you ain't coming, end of story".  I think if you try to be diplomatic about your answer, it gives her leeway to manipulate you.  If she then threatens to make trouble for your work tell her "you do that and we are done, do you understand me?"

Following this recommendation with a BPD spouse is basically a guarantee to start a war.  Boundaries/ communications regarding sensitive stuff require a degree of care and caution if you do want to try to make it work.  If you don't care and you're trying to end it (in a less than straight forward way by pushing her away) then that is a different story.

Whatever you do, don't tell her it's a shame she can't take off work because she would have been able to go, you know... .just to make things smooth, because then miraculously, she will be able to get off work and you will be stuck.

Agree.  You have to be gentle but honest.  This is a boundary.  She can't come to work.  She can't come on your conference for the reasons that Gagrl listed.  If your marriage goes up in flames because of the boundary so be it.  Time to take your life back but do it in a way that you can be proud of... .honestly, gently, not mean, not nasty, not dysfunctional.

[allibaba]

She is trying to get me to move the trip to another week that works for her so she can go. This is not going to happen. If the right poeple at work knew I was trying to move schedules around just so she can go then I'm sure I'd be in trouble.

But you aren't.  Don't worry about it. 

Did you tell her that unfortunately she can't come in this instance?  Have you thought about how you might tell her this in a loving way?  If you never tell her the truth then you'll never give her the chance to grow.

[Cipher13]

I told her I would ask if she could come. Then I actually did that and she can. Now she can't go that week due to her work. She is asking me to move the schedule to fit hers. I don't want to even ask. I told her I would look into it. How do I tell her itn a loving way? Every way I try is met with returned hostility. She said if she doesn't go then I can back up and move out.

[allibaba]

I told her I would ask if she could come. Then I actually did that and she can. Now she can't go that week due to her work. She is asking me to move the schedule to fit hers. I don't want to even ask. I told her I would look into it. How do I tell her itn a loving way? Every way I try is met with returned hostility. She said if she doesn't go then I can back up and move out.

Telling her that she can come when you don't want her to and feel uncomfortable about it is comprising your own values/ making you feel uncomfortable.  Since you already did that... .I wouldn't go back on it.  Just move on.

Using SET has recently become my tool of choice.  Sympathy, Empathy, Truth -

S= Support refers to an initial statement which indicates the loved one supports the person with borderline personality. It is a statement that begins with "I" and demonstrates concern and a desire to help. The support statement is meant to reassure the BP that the relationship is a safe one, and that her needs matter even during this difficult moment. You are my wife.  I do enjoy spending time with you.

E= Empathy refers to communicating that the loved one understands what the BP is feeling, and focuses on "you." It is not a conveyance of pity or sympathy, but instead a true awareness and validation of the feelings of the BP: "I see you are angry, and I understand how you can get mad at me," "How frustrating this must be for you."  It is important not to tell the BP how she is feeling, but instead put her demonstrated feelings into words. The goal is to convey a clear understanding of the uncomfortable feelings she is having and that they are OK.  I know that you are upset about the prospect of me leaving you for the week.  That must be frustrating to not trust me and want to accompany me when your work schedule won't allow it.

Truth

T= Truth refers to a realistic and honest assessment of the situation and the BPs role in solving the problem. It is an objective statement that focuses on the "it" -- not on the subjective experience of the BP or Non-BP. Often the BP may seem to be asking, or demanding, something impossible, not taking an active role or responsibility in resolving the issue, or even presenting you with a "no-win" situation. The truth statement is meant to clearly and honestly respond to the difficult demand or behavior of the BP, while placing responsibility appropriately: "This is what I can do…," "This is what will happen…,"  I need to go on this conference.  The primary purpose of it is work.  I don't feel comfortable and its not feasible to get the trip rescheduled around you.  We can plan a trip together soon to spend time together soon.

I think that you already figured out that you have to change things in your dynamic if you are going to have a good life.  Its tough and I am sorry that you have to go through this.

[Cipher13]

Thanks I will try this over the weekend and let you know what happens.  I am always appeasing her at my expence to keep her feeling happy. It has never ever made anythign better. So time to change and it won't be easy and it might seem more difficult. I have nothing left to loose. It can't get much worse. Well i suppose it could be lets be real it will tough no matter what.

[allibaba]

Thanks I will try this over the weekend and let you know what happens.  I am always appeasing her at my expence to keep her feeling happy. It has never ever made anythign better. So time to change and it won't be easy and it might seem more difficult. I have nothing left to loose. It can't get much worse. Well i suppose it could be lets be real it will tough no matter what.

In all likelihood, she'll throw a tantrum but its not like she would magically treat you better if you allowed her to come on the trip (I don't think anyway).  You mentioned last time that she made the trip quite hard on you while she was waiting in the hotel for you.

As you said -- appeasing her has never made anything better.

The hardest part is stepping off that cliff (deciding that its time for change)... .you never know if the ground is 2 feet below you or 2 miles below you.

I remember feeling they way that you do one Saturday morning.  I said to myself 'there is nothing left to lose'.  My life had become a bad after school special on domestic abuse   In a really odd way, its freeing to know that 'there is nothing left to lose'.  One way or another your life is going to get better... .with or without her.  Most importantly if you are true to yourself then you'll get your dignity back... . 

My husband and I go through tough times (when he's under stress) but for the first time in many years we have more good times to offset them.  I don't mind losing a few battles along the way as long as I win this war.

I congratulate you that you know that something is wrong and its not you.  Some people never get to that stage.  The next step is understanding your role in how she behaves and making appropriate changes.  Good luck my friend!

[momtara]

Can you get ahead of the situation by figuring out what kind of retaliation she might do, and warning those she might do it with?  If it was the case of the Army, you could tell your supervisor ahead of time.  If it's the case of her calling friends, tell the friends in advance that she may act this way.

I used to be able to talk to my hubby out of this kind of stuff.  I would tell him I'm counting on him to do the right thing and let me go.  Eventually, after a few days, he'd calm down and change his mind.

Since we are dealing with a disorder where abandonment scares them, maybe you can be reassuring about what time you'll come back from the trip, maybe plan a nice dinner with her for that time.

[GaGrl]

Are you in charge of the conference?  I mean, are you sponsoring it, handling the meeting planning, etc.?  Or do you have a choice as to whether to go to this conference or go to another at a later date?

Because if you are signed up and she's thinking you are going to get 25 or 250 or however many other people rescheduled because of your schedule, that's chutzpah!  I know in my case, between the T&E and the meeting costs and the facilitator fee, etc. etc. etc. I spend WAY too much money putting on a training event to change it for one person's convinience.

Also, it's really a shame when a company doesn't provide support when someone's spouse is making difficulties.  A good company can really help.  Security has gotten a lot tighter at a lot of companies lately, and frankly, I like this.  I've been in a situation of a worker being stalked and attacked by her husband, who was waiting in the parking lot for her shift to be over -- no security at that facility.  I'd rather be in a situation where no one gets in without an employee signing them in and obtaining a badge.  Doesn't mean that someone can't make a scene at the Security Desk, but that what the guards are trained to handle.  At least the scene-maker can't get 7 stories up to a spouse's desk.

[Cipher13]

I congratulate you that you know that something is wrong and its not you.  Some people never get to that stage.  The next step is understanding your role in how she behaves and making appropriate changes.  Good luck my friend!

Not sure how much headway I made in this area this weekend. I was raked over the coals for 2 straight days for hours on end. Then after 2 days I break through and I don't even remeber what I said or promised. I think I won't be able to keep it. She keeps telling e I am not nice or I don't shoe love. But I know that I am. I can't and will never win that battle. So I agree to just to end the fight that she can carry on longer than should be humanly possible.  She has at this point made it so the only thing left I can honestly say to her (other than thats it I'm done with you) is honey I think you might have a problem and it isn't me... .

Are you in charge of the conference?  I mean, are you sponsoring it, handling the meeting planning, etc.?  Or do you have a choice as to whether to go to this conference or go to another at a later date?

No I am not going to change it. Its not large and its very expensive for my company. There is another person going from work with me from a different out of state office. Its not set but I am settign it for that day and sticking to it. I'll tell her it can't be rescheduled.

She wants acts pf love and kindness while she is yelling and argueing about the past errors of my ways like I have never heard them before. There has to be a better way of living. I got an email from mo mother this morning and she mentioned my incle who has gone through soemthing similar. I havn't spoken or seen him in 10 years probably. She said he wants to help me and I said i would welcome that. Hope things can change becasue living like this sucks.

[Cipher13]

I'm dreading this. Dreading having to tell her I can not change the conference. The reason being isn't because I am afraid of her leaving me or it splitting us up. Seems petty to break up over that but it is what it is.  I would welcome it I think.  No whatI fear is her ability to call me out on this. In other words I don't really have a very good grasp on why it can't be changed. I see it going liek this. I say it can't be changed she says why? I say because my manager has mades the reservations for myslef and the other person going. She will say you have to change them or there will be big probelms for me. I say I can't she says go and tell them that you have an obilgation at home that week or some other reason.  Thats where I know I will fall down and get beat up badly.

[wishfulthinking]

Basically, you are obligated to work and you told them that this schedule was fine, so they went ahead and confirmed their financial part of it and adjusted the business so that 2 employees could go who confirmed they could.  Unless it is a hospital emergency, you have no right to change this unless you own the company.  If she doesn't like it, too bad.  Unless she is paying for ALL the household expenses and entertainment, then in this society you need employment, so you NEED to keep your job and do what they pay you for.  

Not trying to be bossy or mean, just she needs to realize you have a job, too, and it is just as important as hers.

[Cipher13]

Not trying to be bossy or mean, just she needs to realize you have a job, too, and it is just as important as hers.

I did not take it as bossy or mean. You are right and I know that is what I need to do. I wanto be abel to be strong enough to handle the outcome and the wrath behind it.  She is a master at trying to find ways around stuff if its possible.  And even when its not possible. That has never usually stopped her before.  Mark my words. This is the end. This will probably be what pushes her over the edge.

[wishfulthinking]

Cipher13,

I wish I could tell you how to be strong... .It's amazing how we know what we SHOULD do and what is RIGHT for us to do... .but when it comes down to it... .we CAN'T.  Keep us informed and good luck.

When it comes to my job, I can't afford to lose it.  After being here 11 years, I won't jeopardize it due to him and I have had to put my foot down with him before on it.  Last week I had a 2 day conference HERE IN TOWN but at a different site and he got hostile and rude and tried to hint that I was taking that opportunity to sleep with the collegues(sp) coming in from out of town.  I called him during a break and he didn't answer and I had to go back into the meeting and he freaked out on me later about where I went... ummm... .back to work.  So sorry they wouldn't delay starting over your phone call loss... .  Until he puts in on the bills (which he hasn't but a couple hundred so far... .literally) he hasn't earned any say on my job.