Either she gets to comes with me or I have to find a new job...

[Cipher13]

Ok so I knew i had the possiblilty of another work related trip coming up. She was able to go last time and was bored out of her skull as I told her she would be. Now it was brought up again I go back for additional training. I knew about this for a week or 2 but had to tell her now since I know when I am to be going.  She is freaking out that she has to be allowed to go or I need to find a new job. That this is BS and I am not handling this properly with her. She says I can't be trusted so she has to go and keep an eye on me.

Thing is I don't want her to go. I can not focus on what I am doing when I am there. I am only worried about making sure I can get out at the time she is expecting me to and not a minute later. Last time I said I was going to be a few minutes late and turned out ot be about 30... .it hit the fan when I got back to the hotel... .She was complaining she was shut in all day... .again somthing I told her would be the case.

So now I don't know how I should handle this. I don't want her to go and at the same time if she doesn't go I know things won't go well at all. I don't think she would try to sabatoge things but I wouldn't put it past her.  She was able to piss off the US Army while I was in boot camp when we were first married and that basically got me kicked out.

[popeye6031]

You are between a rock and an extremely hard place here.  No way to win.  Though one way has maybe more positives than the other.  That being that not bringing her would allow you some peace, except for the barrage of texts or phone calls you will get. 

But then there is the possibility of her causing trouble for your work.

I would say put your foot down and say "you ain't coming, end of story".  I think if you try to be diplomatic about your answer, it gives her leeway to manipulate you.  If she then threatens to make trouble for your work tell her "you do that and we are done, do you understand me?"

I tried this recently when my fiance said she was gonna email me friends to say that I was not going out with them.  Now I know you are in a different situation being married for so long but what have you got to lose?  Either she plays ball or she does not and you get your chance to get away from her.  You will not be the one losing out.  If anything, it would probably be the FOG that is keeping you there.

[Cipher13]

This has already given me a migrane. This completely sucks. Under no way can i think of does this allow me to do my job effectivley.  I so am leaning towards you advice that she aint goning.  That will end very very very badly... .actually it won't end it will just be the giant mushroom cloud you will be able to see from space.

Now the texting and phone calls wouldn't be an issue or maybe they would as its actually out of country and we don't have aplan to cover those costs for international texting/calling... .

Geez this sucks every bit as bad as I feared it was going to. Except now its real.

[popeye6031]

When do you have to make a decision on it?  You say the job is abroad.  Who will pick up the expense of flying her there etc?  I suppose that is you?

It does not look like any way is gonna work for you.

[Cipher13]

The decision is made. Its not too far of a drive as I drove it before. But she seems to thing what ever the added cost we would have to pick up is work preventing what ever blow up would happen as a result. She is now complaining and has been for a couple days that I do not put her first all the time as I should. First thought in morning... her. First thought at work... .her. First thought after the thought I just had... .her.  Also if I am alone I should be rendered completely helpless and functionless without her.  Said that is how I feel with her.

[Cipher13]

Said that is how I feel with her.

Sad that is how I feel with her. I didn't actually tel her that.

[popeye6031]

Exactly, would be great if you could tell her.  Though I imagine that would erupt into a huge argument.  I know that my fiance as these feelings that when I am not with her I should be miserable and not able to function properly and it frustrates her when I am not like that.

So, you are driving back and forward then?

[GaGrl]

I'm going to tell you something that you probably won't want to hear, and it's coming from my having a 35 year career in HR and talent development.

Many times over the years, I've seen employees whose performance on the job was negatively affected by a spouse who required constant attending and communications throughout the day.  I've seen sales reps who couldn't focus on phone work because of a spouse who called 10-12 times a day.  Many, many times I've seen seminar attendees bring a spouse and then not be able to engage in evening activities that were planned for networking or group homework assignments required for the class, because the spouse expected to be entertained as if the business trip were a social vacation.

In addition to performance, but also perceptions of an employee's professionalism can most definitely be affected by a spouse's behavior. 

In my professional opinion, your spouse's needs are detrimental to your ongoing career growth.

[Cipher13]

Gagrl

Your words ring in my head loud and clear. I know and understad 100% what you are saying and I couldn't agree more. I am already experiencing loss of focus. I have tried to set boundaries with texting. A couple times it held but then fell apart.

I know she is getting worse. As all these things she is asking of me has never been this drastict. They have been there at much smaller degrees and frequencies.

The only thing that will fix this it to leave. I want to. I need to. I don't know what to do to make that happen. I don't have kids. I don't have many things. I have my job. I have family that misses me but they are not close to my job at all. If I didn't have to work I'd run away. I would so hide out some place. Leave my cell phone on the kitchen table with a very short note.

Why can't I? Whats stopping me... .AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :'(

[Cipher13]

I left a note this morning for her. It is as close as I have gotten to it being a break up note. Last night was another bad one. I didn't kiss her goodbye again when I had to comeback home on my way to work because I forgot something. I went in not wanting to wake her. Get a text 5 mins later that I am a jerk for not even thinking of coming to see her again before I left the 2nd time.

Well that started a whole day of texting arguments that was made worse by me not responding when she thought I should or how I should. The topic of counseling came up. We have a joint session scheduled for Tuesday. She said she isn't going because it is my fault and I should be the only one that needs to go. She will just sit silent with T or be raging like she was last night. In the note I said we have to both go to counseling to work through this. If we don't there are 2 options left... .#1 We stay as is and argue all the time. #2 We break up. I am not wanting to do #2 as I think we can both get help. And I won't contiue doing #1 either. Its not healthy for either of us.

I have not heard from her yet today. I know she read it but she has not responded to my text telling her I dropped the dogs off at the groomers. I'm not worried abou ther not replying. I actually enjoy the silence.

[wishfulthinking]

Good for you, Cipher13.

Keep us updated on how she reacts and how you feel about it all.  I wish you the strength you need right now.

[Cipher13]

She responded... .

"Your "apology" means nothing; all it is are empty words that are not followed up with visible actions to show that you MEAN that apology.  I do not see any need to go to counseling to fix something that you have already been given the tools and the explanation of what to do MANY times and you continue to choose NOT to do these things.  YOU could have "fixed" this long ago by simply doing the things that counselor told you to do SEVERAL years ago.  You continue to be in this mess that YOU created because of YOU and your inability to follow through in a consistent manner!  So do NOT tell me that you are doing these things because you are NOT doing them CONSISTENTLY! Find the key words and figure it out or do you need someone to spell this out for you too?"

Oh I also told her I can't reschedule the dates for the trip and she said her work won't let her off at that time so then I should back and not bother coming back... .

[wishfulthinking]

Whatever you do, don't tell her it's a shame she can't take off work because she would have been able to go, you know... .just to make things smooth, because then miraculously, she will be able to get off work and you will be stuck.  I got in trouble at work recently because mine showed up here and caused issue.  I've been here 11 years.  Never been in trouble.  Nice, huh?  They just don't care.

[Cipher13]

She has wanted to come to work. They have issued a new policy with security here. Not company id badge no entry. All doors are locked. However she has the ability to make an issue via the phone. Don't think she is there yet. Hopefully never is.

I found out that an apology via text isn't and can't be considered a valid and real apology unless its in person. But an apology via text has to happen anyway at the right time.

So far she isn't able to go. She will have to get her work to change her schedule. Hope that don't. I am tryign to get her to focus blame there but doubt I will succeed.

[Cipher13]

I have a question and maybe this should be a separate post. My wife is uBPD from everything I have researched has told me this. Last night during an argument I was noticing myslef getting heated and harsher so I stopped myself and replied in a cooler calmer tone... .

Her responce to that was "You can nock that crap off its like you have Borderline Personality Disorder. You do that crap all the time." I was shocked she even knew BPD but she doesn't know what it really is I don't think. I so wanted to just explain it and say... "You! You have this what yo are doign right now. This is an example of that. Not what I am doing!"  But i bit my tounge and said sorry but I don't think you even know what that is. "So now you are a damn Pschologist or something.  I quickly backed out of that converstion.

Anyway my question... .ever have you pwBPD say you have it or some other type of mental illness?

Also are all the things that are not true that they say about you really how they feel about themselves and don't know it?

[wishfulthinking]

Cipher13,

Mine loves to tell me I do things he actually does and he calls me names that I'm pretty sure he is actually feeling about himself, and he will tell me I feel such and such way about him, when in reality he's just made me feel that way due to a direct result of his actions.  Such as last night after his forceful incident, when he got mad because I stopped it, I told him he shouldn't be mad, he made me feel like trash.  Now, he is saying I treat him like trash and using the same words I used to describe how he made me feel when he crossed the line. 

Mine tells me in one breath he has mental issues, but in another tells me he's smarter than all the therapists and he doesn't need any help because it's everyone else with the problem.

[Cipher13]

She is trying to get me to move the trip to another week that works for her so she can go. This is not going to happen. If the right poeple at work knew I was trying to move schedules around just so she can go then I'm sure I'd be in trouble.

[allibaba]

I know she is getting worse. As all these things she is asking of me has never been this drastict. They have been there at much smaller degrees and frequencies.

Um Cipher... .she managed to get you out of military service because she demanded it and made herself enough of an annoyance that you were discharged.  She has been this drastic before, my friend.  That wasn't small and her calling basic training over and over and over shows a pattern of frequency and history.

I would say put your foot down and say "you ain't coming, end of story".  I think if you try to be diplomatic about your answer, it gives her leeway to manipulate you.  If she then threatens to make trouble for your work tell her "you do that and we are done, do you understand me?"

Following this recommendation with a BPD spouse is basically a guarantee to start a war.  Boundaries/ communications regarding sensitive stuff require a degree of care and caution if you do want to try to make it work.  If you don't care and you're trying to end it (in a less than straight forward way by pushing her away) then that is a different story.

Whatever you do, don't tell her it's a shame she can't take off work because she would have been able to go, you know... .just to make things smooth, because then miraculously, she will be able to get off work and you will be stuck.

Agree.  You have to be gentle but honest.  This is a boundary.  She can't come to work.  She can't come on your conference for the reasons that Gagrl listed.  If your marriage goes up in flames because of the boundary so be it.  Time to take your life back but do it in a way that you can be proud of... .honestly, gently, not mean, not nasty, not dysfunctional.

[allibaba]

She is trying to get me to move the trip to another week that works for her so she can go. This is not going to happen. If the right poeple at work knew I was trying to move schedules around just so she can go then I'm sure I'd be in trouble.

But you aren't.  Don't worry about it. 

Did you tell her that unfortunately she can't come in this instance?  Have you thought about how you might tell her this in a loving way?  If you never tell her the truth then you'll never give her the chance to grow.

[Cipher13]

I told her I would ask if she could come. Then I actually did that and she can. Now she can't go that week due to her work. She is asking me to move the schedule to fit hers. I don't want to even ask. I told her I would look into it. How do I tell her itn a loving way? Every way I try is met with returned hostility. She said if she doesn't go then I can back up and move out.

[allibaba]

I told her I would ask if she could come. Then I actually did that and she can. Now she can't go that week due to her work. She is asking me to move the schedule to fit hers. I don't want to even ask. I told her I would look into it. How do I tell her itn a loving way? Every way I try is met with returned hostility. She said if she doesn't go then I can back up and move out.

Telling her that she can come when you don't want her to and feel uncomfortable about it is comprising your own values/ making you feel uncomfortable.  Since you already did that... .I wouldn't go back on it.  Just move on.

Using SET has recently become my tool of choice.  Sympathy, Empathy, Truth -

S= Support refers to an initial statement which indicates the loved one supports the person with borderline personality. It is a statement that begins with "I" and demonstrates concern and a desire to help. The support statement is meant to reassure the BP that the relationship is a safe one, and that her needs matter even during this difficult moment. You are my wife.  I do enjoy spending time with you.

E= Empathy refers to communicating that the loved one understands what the BP is feeling, and focuses on "you." It is not a conveyance of pity or sympathy, but instead a true awareness and validation of the feelings of the BP: "I see you are angry, and I understand how you can get mad at me," "How frustrating this must be for you."  It is important not to tell the BP how she is feeling, but instead put her demonstrated feelings into words. The goal is to convey a clear understanding of the uncomfortable feelings she is having and that they are OK.  I know that you are upset about the prospect of me leaving you for the week.  That must be frustrating to not trust me and want to accompany me when your work schedule won't allow it.

Truth

T= Truth refers to a realistic and honest assessment of the situation and the BPs role in solving the problem. It is an objective statement that focuses on the "it" -- not on the subjective experience of the BP or Non-BP. Often the BP may seem to be asking, or demanding, something impossible, not taking an active role or responsibility in resolving the issue, or even presenting you with a "no-win" situation. The truth statement is meant to clearly and honestly respond to the difficult demand or behavior of the BP, while placing responsibility appropriately: "This is what I can do…," "This is what will happen…,"  I need to go on this conference.  The primary purpose of it is work.  I don't feel comfortable and its not feasible to get the trip rescheduled around you.  We can plan a trip together soon to spend time together soon.

I think that you already figured out that you have to change things in your dynamic if you are going to have a good life.  Its tough and I am sorry that you have to go through this.

[Cipher13]

Thanks I will try this over the weekend and let you know what happens.  I am always appeasing her at my expence to keep her feeling happy. It has never ever made anythign better. So time to change and it won't be easy and it might seem more difficult. I have nothing left to loose. It can't get much worse. Well i suppose it could be lets be real it will tough no matter what.

[allibaba]

Thanks I will try this over the weekend and let you know what happens.  I am always appeasing her at my expence to keep her feeling happy. It has never ever made anythign better. So time to change and it won't be easy and it might seem more difficult. I have nothing left to loose. It can't get much worse. Well i suppose it could be lets be real it will tough no matter what.

In all likelihood, she'll throw a tantrum but its not like she would magically treat you better if you allowed her to come on the trip (I don't think anyway).  You mentioned last time that she made the trip quite hard on you while she was waiting in the hotel for you.

As you said -- appeasing her has never made anything better.

The hardest part is stepping off that cliff (deciding that its time for change)... .you never know if the ground is 2 feet below you or 2 miles below you.

I remember feeling they way that you do one Saturday morning.  I said to myself 'there is nothing left to lose'.  My life had become a bad after school special on domestic abuse   In a really odd way, its freeing to know that 'there is nothing left to lose'.  One way or another your life is going to get better... .with or without her.  Most importantly if you are true to yourself then you'll get your dignity back... . 

My husband and I go through tough times (when he's under stress) but for the first time in many years we have more good times to offset them.  I don't mind losing a few battles along the way as long as I win this war.

I congratulate you that you know that something is wrong and its not you.  Some people never get to that stage.  The next step is understanding your role in how she behaves and making appropriate changes.  Good luck my friend!

[momtara]

Can you get ahead of the situation by figuring out what kind of retaliation she might do, and warning those she might do it with?  If it was the case of the Army, you could tell your supervisor ahead of time.  If it's the case of her calling friends, tell the friends in advance that she may act this way.

I used to be able to talk to my hubby out of this kind of stuff.  I would tell him I'm counting on him to do the right thing and let me go.  Eventually, after a few days, he'd calm down and change his mind.

Since we are dealing with a disorder where abandonment scares them, maybe you can be reassuring about what time you'll come back from the trip, maybe plan a nice dinner with her for that time.

[GaGrl]

Are you in charge of the conference?  I mean, are you sponsoring it, handling the meeting planning, etc.?  Or do you have a choice as to whether to go to this conference or go to another at a later date?

Because if you are signed up and she's thinking you are going to get 25 or 250 or however many other people rescheduled because of your schedule, that's chutzpah!  I know in my case, between the T&E and the meeting costs and the facilitator fee, etc. etc. etc. I spend WAY too much money putting on a training event to change it for one person's convinience.

Also, it's really a shame when a company doesn't provide support when someone's spouse is making difficulties.  A good company can really help.  Security has gotten a lot tighter at a lot of companies lately, and frankly, I like this.  I've been in a situation of a worker being stalked and attacked by her husband, who was waiting in the parking lot for her shift to be over -- no security at that facility.  I'd rather be in a situation where no one gets in without an employee signing them in and obtaining a badge.  Doesn't mean that someone can't make a scene at the Security Desk, but that what the guards are trained to handle.  At least the scene-maker can't get 7 stories up to a spouse's desk.

[Cipher13]

I congratulate you that you know that something is wrong and its not you.  Some people never get to that stage.  The next step is understanding your role in how she behaves and making appropriate changes.  Good luck my friend!

Not sure how much headway I made in this area this weekend. I was raked over the coals for 2 straight days for hours on end. Then after 2 days I break through and I don't even remeber what I said or promised. I think I won't be able to keep it. She keeps telling e I am not nice or I don't shoe love. But I know that I am. I can't and will never win that battle. So I agree to just to end the fight that she can carry on longer than should be humanly possible.  She has at this point made it so the only thing left I can honestly say to her (other than thats it I'm done with you) is honey I think you might have a problem and it isn't me... .

Are you in charge of the conference?  I mean, are you sponsoring it, handling the meeting planning, etc.?  Or do you have a choice as to whether to go to this conference or go to another at a later date?

No I am not going to change it. Its not large and its very expensive for my company. There is another person going from work with me from a different out of state office. Its not set but I am settign it for that day and sticking to it. I'll tell her it can't be rescheduled.

She wants acts pf love and kindness while she is yelling and argueing about the past errors of my ways like I have never heard them before. There has to be a better way of living. I got an email from mo mother this morning and she mentioned my incle who has gone through soemthing similar. I havn't spoken or seen him in 10 years probably. She said he wants to help me and I said i would welcome that. Hope things can change becasue living like this sucks.

[Cipher13]

I'm dreading this. Dreading having to tell her I can not change the conference. The reason being isn't because I am afraid of her leaving me or it splitting us up. Seems petty to break up over that but it is what it is.  I would welcome it I think.  No whatI fear is her ability to call me out on this. In other words I don't really have a very good grasp on why it can't be changed. I see it going liek this. I say it can't be changed she says why? I say because my manager has mades the reservations for myslef and the other person going. She will say you have to change them or there will be big probelms for me. I say I can't she says go and tell them that you have an obilgation at home that week or some other reason.  Thats where I know I will fall down and get beat up badly.

[wishfulthinking]

Basically, you are obligated to work and you told them that this schedule was fine, so they went ahead and confirmed their financial part of it and adjusted the business so that 2 employees could go who confirmed they could.  Unless it is a hospital emergency, you have no right to change this unless you own the company.  If she doesn't like it, too bad.  Unless she is paying for ALL the household expenses and entertainment, then in this society you need employment, so you NEED to keep your job and do what they pay you for.  

Not trying to be bossy or mean, just she needs to realize you have a job, too, and it is just as important as hers.

[Cipher13]

Not trying to be bossy or mean, just she needs to realize you have a job, too, and it is just as important as hers.

I did not take it as bossy or mean. You are right and I know that is what I need to do. I wanto be abel to be strong enough to handle the outcome and the wrath behind it.  She is a master at trying to find ways around stuff if its possible.  And even when its not possible. That has never usually stopped her before.  Mark my words. This is the end. This will probably be what pushes her over the edge.

[wishfulthinking]

Cipher13,

I wish I could tell you how to be strong... .It's amazing how we know what we SHOULD do and what is RIGHT for us to do... .but when it comes down to it... .we CAN'T.  Keep us informed and good luck.

When it comes to my job, I can't afford to lose it.  After being here 11 years, I won't jeopardize it due to him and I have had to put my foot down with him before on it.  Last week I had a 2 day conference HERE IN TOWN but at a different site and he got hostile and rude and tried to hint that I was taking that opportunity to sleep with the collegues(sp) coming in from out of town.  I called him during a break and he didn't answer and I had to go back into the meeting and he freaked out on me later about where I went... ummm... .back to work.  So sorry they wouldn't delay starting over your phone call loss... .  Until he puts in on the bills (which he hasn't but a couple hundred so far... .literally) he hasn't earned any say on my job.

[Cipher13]

How does everyone handle when you do stand your ground or have to change you mind. Thats when things get hostile. I know i said this but it is now that.  pwBPD doen't seem to take well to that.

So I will see how this unfolds tomorrow when I get told "officially" I can't move it because its been booked for car for me and flight fo rthe other person. Not to mention hotel with a deposit put down... I'll let you know.

[Waddams]

Just my opinion, but I think you let go of worrying about their reactions.  You can't control it.  You can't control them, or fix them.  You can only do what you need to do.

If you need to go on a work trip, and she can't go, you still need to go on a work trip.  Her reactions are her responsibility.  Further, you have a right, and really an obligation to yourself, to protect yourself from her rages and acting out.  Loving someone doesn't mean letting them hurt you.  You know what is reasonable, what is okay as for protecting yourself (i.e. - leaving and not letting her rage on you).  She'll come up with all kinds of drama as to why that is wronging her, why holding your boundaries is wronging her, victimizing her, etc.  You just have to let do what she does and remember not to internalize it as about you.

Same thing regarding when you have to change your mind about something.  If she takes it personally and rages again, same as above, you know why it was reasonable for you to change your mind, and that it's not a bad thing.  Let her do what she does in response, and be willing to protect yourself.  Leave so she can't yell at you if face to face.  Don't answer the texts, phone calls, etc.  Or calmly tell her you're sorry that she's so upset, but you also won't let her rage at you on the phone, you're going to go, and hang up.  And don't answer the inevitable immediate call back. 

Just don't participate in the antics.  Estabilshing distance from the rage, cycling, antics, etc. is not the same things as distancing from her.  You can still behave in a mature way in a relationship on your side. 

And be prepared for the extinction burst from her.  It will come.  Be ready for a long weekend out of town on your own or something.  Be sure you can have what you need to distance yourself from her acting out.  If you wish to continue in the relationship, that's fine too, just be sure to tell her that, and emphasize you're distancing yourself from her acting out, and when she's able to act like a mature grown up, you want to continue things with her.

[Cipher13]

Be sure you can have what you need to distance yourself from her acting out.  If you wish to continue in the relationship, that's fine too, just be sure to tell her that, and emphasize you're distancing yourself from her acting out, and when she's able to act like a mature grown up, you want to continue things with her.

She doesn't allow for me to say anything on how she is recting. Its because of me and what I did or is doing now or about to do. Tomorrow will suck but life sucks so just another day.

[popeye6031]

How does everyone handle when you do stand your ground or have to change you mind. Thats when things get hostile. I know i said this but it is now that.  pwBPD doen't seem to take well to that.

I have to say I have felt alot better about things since standing my ground; still stressed but better.  I have been accused of pushing her away by doing it but the way I look at it is that if she cannot handle normal relationship boundaries and expectations then then it is not my problem.  If it results in the end of the relationship for me, then so be it, I am not the one losing out.

And as much as your wife may think that is not the case she soon will.  It is a power struggle and for now she has all the power. No matter what you seem to do, she is coming back with some counter argument. You and every other non know that those arguments are illogical, so just remember that and stick to your guns.

I think that a big part of you wants to walk away from this relationship and it is not for us to push you in either way but you got to do what is best for you.   Sso easy to say, I know.

[Waddams]

She doesn't allow for me to say anything on how she is recting. Its because of me and what I did or is doing now or about to do. Tomorrow will suck but life sucks so just another day.

I mean this gently, but that's okay for you if she does that.  You still can control yourself and hold your boundary.  She's trying to get you to accept blame for her actions and behaviors.  You can not accept it whether she listens to anything else or not.  

At some point, if she won't stop raging, you are justified in leaving the situation.  I encourage you to do so.  :)on't yell back, don't rage back at her, don't insult her.  Just tell her you are leaving because you have a right to not be treated that way, and stay calm.  Then follow through.

Being that I've spent the majority of time on this site in the Legal Forum, I'm sure I'm biased, but I'd have a recorder going in my pocket.  Either a unit you purchased, or a cell phone app, etc.  Something to document in the event she dysregulates to the point of calling the police and making false accusations.

If she tries to obstruct you from leaving, or gets physical, do as little as possible back, and just figure out how to get out.  If she hits you some, let her.  Leave the situation, calm down, then decide how to proceed.  :)O NOT LAY HANDS ON HER IN ANY WAY, FOR ANY REASON, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, EVEN IN SELF DEFENSE.  I learned the hard way that the criteria the police will use to determine the primary aggressor will always work against the man.  Trust me, you are better off afterward with the cops if you have marks on you and she has absolutely nothing.  They will look for physical evidence, and if she has any mark, even just a little temporary red spot, they'll look at you as the primary aggressor.  It's not so much male bias, they are just trained to do so because the guidelines issued to them through the law require it.  And don't call the cops during an incident.  In fact never call them in the heat of the moment.  Just escape, calm down, figure out your next move afterwards.

[Grey Kitty]

She doesn't allow for me to say anything on how she is recting. Its because of me and what I did or is doing now or about to do. Tomorrow will suck but life sucks so just another day.

You don't have to say anything about how she's reacting.

You also don't have to stay and listen while she rages/guilts/verbally abuses you.

I know the biggest turning point I had was when I realized that there were times where my wife was not going to stop picking at me and poking at me, and accusing me of all sorts of horrible things... .and I didn't have to talk sense into her. (And if I somehowconvinced her that I didn't do horrible thing #1 that she was upset about, she would just switch directions and find something else to continue with instead) I didn't have to get her to stop. All I had to do was remove myself from the situation, as listening to it would only harm me.

Yes, there were some extinction bursts, but she stopped the verbal abuse when she realized that her target for it would consistently go away.

Protecting your career is very important. Don't give up on that.

 GK

[Surnia]

Hi Cipher

So much good things said here- I am reading your tough story and all I can say: Keep going. Focus on your work. There is no need to say why it cannot be scheduled to another date.

As for being assertive: You can try it out. Look for a place with no other people. Perhaps you go with your car to a quiet parking lot and than you tell her, that you will go on the conference. Speak it out loud. I would not so much focus on being nice but assertive. Speak it again. Perhaps you even take a record with your phone... .firm voice. Shoulders and head straight... .

(This kind of practicing is what my T did with me at the end of my marriage. Again and again.   )

I agree with you: Nothing to loose.

Sending you strengh! 

[Cipher13]

I told her about the trip... .here is how it went:

Me:

"I talked to the person in charge of arranging and booking trips. She says its already booked and can’t be changed. Plane ticket and the hotel rooms have a deposit put down.  The trip is already booked and set up.

I know that you are probably very upset about this. I need to go to this and it does not look like it can be changed. There isn’t much else I can do. We can find a way to still make this work with as little impact as possible.  Can you push your work any more to go or is that a no go as much as me pushing this out?


Her:

"This is not ok at all. I am extremely upset about this and do not see any way to "make this work out". Pack your crap and leave or find another job"

[Surnia]

You: 

Her: As expected. Totally black&white thinking.

How do you feel now?

What do you think you are doing?

[Waddams]

One - you don't have to leave your home.

Two - go to your conference.  Let her rage.  Isolate yourself from it.

Three - protect yourself.  Keep a recorder going around her.  That way if she starts something that could involve cops, you can document what you did or didn't do.  

Do you have a safety plan?  At one point, I kept a garbage bag with a spare set of clothes, travel toiletry kit, $250 cash, spare shoes, etc. in the truck of my car in the space under trunk floor where the spare tire was.  I kept a spare check card in my glove box as well.  I kept it hidden so she wouldn't see it if I opened the trunk.  I did have need of that stuff one night, and was very glad I was prepared.

As I've advised others, no matter how crazy she gets, if she gets physical, your best reaction is to leave.  :)o not touch her, not even to "protect her" if she's just flailing around (I saw my ex- just flat flop herself on the ground and flail like a 3 year old having a fit multiple times).

Keep your distance from her, let her do and say what she does.  If it gets bad, then leave.  Sleep on the couch, whatever you need.  Hold your boundaries and let her rage.

I know it's not easy, it's scary, it's stressful, and it royally sucks.  She's going to pull every trick in the book from guilt, to mocking you, to raging, etc.  It's not you, it's her. Don't forget that.  Try not to lose your cool, and don't do anything to escalate back towards her.  

For now, you're just gonna have to ride out her reaction and see what happens next if you're going to stay with her.

Good luck, keep posting here, and we'll be around to keep you pepped up!

[GaGrl]

Her:

"This is not ok at all. I am extremely upset about this and do not see any way to "make this work out". Pack your crap and leave or find another job"

When we talk about boundaries, we talk about them being connected to values.  What is your value around being told to find another job, i.e. having your uBPD wife control and direct a career you have chosen?

One's choice of work and career can be, for many people, a core value.  It's one of the ways many of us "show up" in the world, and how we contribute to a greater good.  If you view your work and career this way, the prospect of having your wife control it must be daunting.

What are you thinking now?

[allibaba]

I told her about the trip... .here is how it went:

Me:

"I talked to the person in charge of arranging and booking trips. She says its already booked and can’t be changed. Plane ticket and the hotel rooms have a deposit put down.  The trip is already booked and set up.

I know that you are probably very upset about this. I need to go to this and it does not look like it can be changed. There isn’t much else I can do. We can find a way to still make this work with as little impact as possible.  Can you push your work any more to go or is that a no go as much as me pushing this out?


Her:

"This is not ok at all. I am extremely upset about this and do not see any way to "make this work out". Pack your crap and leave or find another job"

I think that you did great.  How do you think that you did?  You were gentle and strong.  The important thing at this point is to do what you need to do and not get caught up in trying to make her feel better.  If you are going ever going to have a life - it has to start with simple stuff like this.  Now do whatever you need to do to not get caught up in the aftermath of her tantrum.

[Cipher13]

The reply I was expecting again:...

"No it will not be ok in the end. You said that they woukd change it and now they won't! Why would they have even scheduled it when you kept saying that it was not even for sure and you just found out about it! You are a liar!"

I have not reponded to this one. Also I am trying to keep these conversations via email so I cansave them. I can't save the texts on my phone. Its pretty old.

As far as stuff hidden away good idea. But she is very nosey and looks for that stuff. Has gone through my phone many many times. She is now telling me to change it. This is where I know I need the most help. I need not to cave. She is a master at making me cave for this kind of stuff.

[wishfulthinking]

Very proud of you Cipher13.  You did great on your approach.  I don't see that you should do anything to change it and you need to just let her be.  The fact is, she doesn't truly in her heart want you to leave or she would have left by now.  It's her scare tactic, her guilt trip to get what she wants.  I let mine go one night.  Didn't stop him.  Told him if he wants to go that badly, then I must make him that unhappy and I accept and respect his decision.  Only once since then has he threatened to leave (last rage with the "incident" and he backtracked on it very quickly.  Hold strong, you can do this. 

[popeye6031]

Lostinparadise is right Cipher, stick to your guns on this and do not give in.  She is testing you.  You cannot change it and are not going to leave your job. So, only option is to stay with your decision.  You are going alone and she can just deal with it.  If she throws you out before you go or by the time you return (which again will just be a test), you will not have lost anything.  She will be the one losing out.

[Waddams]

As far as stuff hidden away good idea. But she is very nosey and looks for that stuff. Has gone through my phone many many times. She is now telling me to change it. This is where I know I need the most help. I need not to cave. She is a master at making me cave for this kind of stuff.

In a relationship, there's a balance to hit between proper individual privacy/boundaries, and secrecy.  JMHO, but secrecy really doesn't have much place in intimate relationships.  I don't keep secrets from my fiance.  

However, there are still items/issues that are your private issues, others that are hers, and it's really appropriate for you each to stay out of each others private issues, such as job related issues.  You're not the first non- to deal with a BPD that I would say mistakes secrecy vs. individual privacy/boundaries.  She believes if she doesn't have complete knowledge and control, then there's a risk of a secret that will harm her.  She's operating out of deep seated fear in this regard.  She doesn't trust you (and chances she doesn't trust anyone).  She can't manage her intense fear well, and she lashes out.  She's really asking you to protect her from her own deep seated fears right now.  She's trying to make you responsible for managing her own intense emotions because she cannot do it for herself.

You can never successfully be responsible for another person's emotions.  It's a no win proposition.  She's got to learn to regulate herself, she can't rely on you, or anyone else, forever.  I'd advise you to not try at all, and let her regulate herself.  She's going to rage because deep down she's terrified.  You've got to let her feel it all and come through it, then, maybe, eventually she'll see when it's over that she's okay and it turned out okay with you.  

Be responsible to yourself.  You don't have to be responsible for how she feels.

[Cipher13]

I am now getting the f-bombing texts and i am not responding to them. I am only trying email and I am not responding quickly at all. I know she is fuming. I feel pretty good. Nervous as heck when it comes time to face her later. We are supposed to have counseling apt tonight. She hasn't wanted to go. Doubt this changes her mind any more to go.

I thank you for the suport. If I can keep it up then it will be a battle well fought and something I have needed to do for years. I just can't cave in now.

[wishfulthinking]

You are getting the extinction burst I've read about, I bet.  The more seasoned members would know more on this.  You are doing the right thing.  You can do this. I quit responding to hateful texts and I hang up on mine when he starts to call names.  He wasn't happy about it at first, but it has lessoned for sure.  Hold strong.  Let her rage, you can't stop it, but you can control your own actions. 

[Cipher13]

So a new threat has been given. She applied for a job on the other side of the state. She said sh doesn't care if i like my job if she gets is "we" are going there.  Its another baited line with a hook on it. I have just swam past it and ignored it.

[Waddams]

My uBPDxgf did this in the final breakup, and several times before.  :)on't engage in the nastiness.  Concentrate on your job and stay in the moment.  Even with my older phone, I could forward texts to my email.  I'd just hit "FWD" and then type in email address.  It might be prudent if you can do something to preserve the texts she's sending, particularly if there are threats included.  Go to counseling.  If she doesn't attend, document that with the counselor.  Leave with the documentation.  If her ranting doesn't abate, and you have another option for a place to go, then don't go home.  In my own experience, I went to a hotel and just bit the bullet on the cost, and used my clothing stash.  If you don't have a stash, you can find some inexpensive store for a new outfit tomorrow, pick up small travel toiletries, etc.  Find a place grab some grub, let the phone meltdown, and try to do something to relax yourself.  In my case, I splurged on a steak at an Outback across the street from a hotel.  Had to have received 100 txts while eating.  She was in the process of posting FB messages, calling relatives, and friends, and endlessly calling and texting me.  I did get a few calls/texts from others asking "dude what's going on?  are you okay?  she's lost it!".

Believe me... .the expenses are infinitely cheaper than making bond and hiring a L to defend you in the aftermath of a really bad night with a BPD.  If she won't quit with the phone assault, she won't quit once you're home.  The only thing I'd advise to send her is something to the effect of you are staying away and not contacting her as long as she is acting like this.  When she can calm down and is able to resolve things maturely, you'll be happy to do so.  Then no more contact until her ranting burns itself out.

[Cipher13]

Thanks Waddam

I will keep the apt. I can test the waters upon leaving and if she is ina rage I will stay away. I might just pack a couple itmes liek you said aNPDut them away just in case. The utlamatim again was sent via email. "You need to change these dates and that's final or get out of my life"

I have tied to fwd texts and i get errors. I can forward a picture i took to email but not the texts. I have documents what I can and the T has some and understands whats going on. Too bad my wife doesn't though. She is locked in her mind that its my fault.

[Waddams]

I have a friend that took pictures of the texts on her phone when an ex- was harassing and stalking her.  She then used the pics to present as evidence to get a TPO.

[allibaba]

Thanks Waddam

I will keep the apt. I can test the waters upon leaving and if she is ina rage I will stay away. I might just pack a couple itmes liek you said aNPDut them away just in case. The utlamatim again was sent via email. "You need to change these dates and that's final or get out of my life"

I have tied to fwd texts and i get errors. I can forward a picture i took to email but not the texts. I have documents what I can and the T has some and understands whats going on. Too bad my wife doesn't though. She is locked in her mind that its my fault.

Stay strong Cipher.  You don't have an option here.  If you want a good life (with or without her) you cannot cave to every little whim.  Its so so so nerve wracking at first.  But honestly - it will get better.  You will get stronger.

My family gets multiple sane days in a row now on a regular basis because of the work that I put in here on boundaries.  There was a point in my life where we didn't go a single day without a violent meltdown (April).  On Friday morning, my husband started swearing at me when I was packing his lunch.  I calmly turned to him and said "Nope.  Sorry.  You call me names and that is the end of our conversation."  He smashed a cereal bowl and threw his coffee cup and said that he wanted a divorce.  Its been more than a month since the last outburst, but I walked away from it with my dignity and that is what is important.  All throughout the day, I disconnected when he got crazy.  I was honest with him.  Well guess what... .  The tantrum didn't last long and we had a nice honest, good weekend.  My husband is under some stress right now so I suspect that its going to be a rocky few days/ weeks... .but at least I have my dignity.

Good luck.

[Cipher13]

There has now be an over abundance of extinction burst texts. All focusing on me getting the heck out of the house to put it nicely. I am not responding to those texts. I am keeping it focused. Now if she keeps insinting that I leave... .I will just call her bluff and walk away.  I am not the one that is wanting to leave but at this point now I beileve i certainly do want to get out of this hell.


I am now wondering if she will sabatage my job here... .(more than i let her by constant texting). Any advice on how to prevent that?

[Cipher13]

Do i ignore this:

"I don't understand how this is even happening!  You said that you didn't even know the dates for sure so how is it that the hotel and flight was already booked? Explain that one since you have a reason for everything.  I already know the answer you lied and said that you would try to change it and never had any intention. I could care less of a stupid black eye on your career! I should come first not your stupid job! You job is stupid and so are you for wanting to put that first and not me!  I wish you would get fired! I told you that I didn't want you going back to there and now here we are again in the same situation.  You had no intention to try to change anything.  As far as I am concerned you did all this on purpose! You don't seem to get the fact that you are not trusted or even close to being seen as trustworthy!  What even gave you the idea that any of this would be fine!"

So... .I do think it possible she might do something to my job now for sure!

[allibaba]

You may want to reply short and sweet.

"Our relationship is important to me.  I know that you think that I don't care about you and that must be a horrible feeling.  Unfortunately I don't have control over the work conference/ training.  That date is the only option for me."

Don't argue about being trustworthy... .or about being a liar.  She's just trying to pull you into JADE.

I also wouldn't call her on her bluff and leave the house.  That's an easy escape for her. Unless its a temporary move to remove yourself from abuse and then I would make it quite clear that you are coming back.

I thought that you had a boundary about only texting her during breaks and lunch -- what happened?

[allibaba]

So... .I do think it possible she might do something to my job now for sure!

Its all probably just a scare tactic.  If you do think that you are at risk and feel comfortable discussing your situation with HR... .then do so.

The one time that my husband threatened to come to my work and make a scene.  I told the head of HR about it.  He said "you realize that if he comes here and creates drama, we will call the police."  I said "I am comfortable with that" I just wanted to warn you about the potential for a situation.

[Cipher13]

I'm sure it is a scare tactic. We have security and no one can get in without a badge. I still have a boundary for texting. That was email. I havn't been responding. Thus the escalation by her.  I'd rather leave than have to deal with what will be comeing when she gets home. I don't and have never handled those confruntations very well. By that I mean i sit there and take it, nod my head and agree to what ever and say what needs to be said to end the escaltion sooner. They are hours upon hours no though. Truly exhausting.

[popeye6031]

Her argument does not even hold water.  It does not matter that the flights and hotel were booked, you did not know they dates they were booked for, your company did.  Saying that you are not even close to trustworthy is her just trying to stamp her authority and make you doubt yourself.  Stick to your guns.

[Cipher13]

I know it doesn't. In the past I wouldn't have seen itthat way. She is saying what ever she can think of now to get a reaction. Trying to think of what ever I might react to. I can stick to my guns when there is distance or technology between us. In person I hold up like 60 degree water.

This will be like no other arguement before. And we have had ones that last for 20 plus hours. Still if it comes down to it and its fight or flight I will be gone. I am still going to pack a contingensy bag.

So tempted if she says to get out to do just that. I don't want to push for this anymore.

[popeye6031]

I know if I was in your situation with my fiance and she said to get out I would be out like a shot. It might be a good idea if you fancy a night of peace.

[allibaba]

I'd rather leave than have to deal with what will be comeing when she gets home. I don't and have never handled those confruntations very well. By that I mean i sit there and take it, nod my head and agree to what ever and say what needs to be said to end the escaltion sooner. They are hours upon hours no though. Truly exhausting.

Cipher, This (I think) is what has gotten you so far down the road with your wife.  I certainly saw this in my interactions with my husband and in my own behavior.  I was so scared of the confrontation that I would literally DO ANYTHING to avoid it.  Because of my husband's disease, there would never be any peace.  Above you have referred to 2 options:  1.) running away, 2.) sit there and take it and say whatever needs to be said to end the conflict.  There is a 3rd option.  You are strong.  You can do this.  The 3rd option is to speak the truth, be loving and not allow her to drag you into a long drawn out discussion where you are forced to say what she wants you to (this is abuse).  If you run away from her without having the conflict in person - IT WILL NOT CHANGE THE BEHAVIOR.  Now, if you say NO and she puts you into an abusive situation then I am very supportive of walking away.

This will be like no other arguement before. And we have had ones that last for 20 plus hours. Still if it comes down to it and its fight or flight I will be gone. I am still going to pack a contingensy bag.

So tempted if she says to get out to do just that. I don't want to push for this anymore.

Even if running away avoids the conflict, now you won't have the opportunity to grow and change. 

Can I ask you - WHAT IS THE WORST THING THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN?

You are in control of you.  If the worst is a 20 hr fight, well you have the power to walk out of it.

If the worst is her calling the cops and telling them that you hit her.  Prepare for it.  Leave before there is the conflict.

Run through the worst case scenarios in your head/ on this board.  Tell us.  Maybe we can help defuse the fear.  This is about a silly little work trip.  This is about your wife's insecurities and her wanting to control you to feel better.

[Grey Kitty]

You are in control of you.  If the worst is a 20 hr fight, well you have the power to walk out of it.

And I'd add to that staying in a fight like that is bad for you--You get all sorts of traumatic emotional abuse. It is also bad for her--she is using you to avoid dealing with her own issues, and this will just get worse for her too.

Hang in there. It isn't easy, but it *IS* worth it.

[Cipher13]

So right. Run away is not going to help me with my own behavior and I will never be able to stand my ground when I deserve to.  Ok I will face it and put my 2cents in when I need to and have an exit ready to temp leave to calm down. If it escalates to even assumed violence then I leave sooner.

We are scheduled for a joint counselor session. She had me cancel earlier today. So I did. Then was all mad because she was able to get out early to go. So I get it back and now she said she won't go... .This is the stuff I am sick of.

My fears what I fear. I can actually get sick to my stomache with stress and anxiety listening to the arguement. I just don't want to or should have to have it over a simple 5 day trip. For crying out loud people do this all the time.

[allibaba]

So right. Run away is not going to help me with my own behavior and I will never be able to stand my ground when I deserve to.  Ok I will face it and put my 2cents in when I need to and have an exit ready to temp leave to calm down. If it escalates to even assumed violence then I leave sooner.

GOOD PLAN!

We are scheduled for a joint counselor session. She had me cancel earlier today. So I did. Then was all mad because she was able to get out early to go. So I get it back and now she said she won't go... .This is the stuff I am sick of.

This is stuff that you are understandably sick of.  The good news is that once you start down this path, you can nip these behaviors too.  I absolutely refuse to cancel and then re-book stuff for my husband any more.  If he demands that I do something, then I think about what I want.  Do I really want to go to that session?  NO, ok then cancel.  If I do, then I'll tell him... .I understand that you don't want to come so I am going without you.  No cancel, rebook, cancel, rebook cycle!  What do you want to do?

My fears what I fear. I can actually get sick to my stomache with stress and anxiety listening to the arguement. I just don't want to or should have to have it over a simple 5 day trip. For crying out loud people do this all the time.

This is something that all of us understand.  We have all been in your shoes and we find ourselves in that position every day.  We have all been sick with worry about our BPD going nutty and making life difficult.  My husband has a great saying "Courage is not the absence of fear.  Its feeling the fear and doing what you need to do anyway."  You are not weak because you are afraid.  Being afraid is normal and its human.  Cipher I'm over here sending all the prayers and good vibes that I can muster.

Allibaba

[Cipher13]

 

Thank you so much. I am about to head home. I will let you know what happens.

[Surnia]

Yes, thinking about you. Sending you solid ground under your feet.

As for the job and her threats: Perhaps you can be proactive and speak with a trustworth superior and tell him in short about your situation and your fears that she will interfere?

[Cipher13]

I want to tell you how the counseling went last night. Bad. In a nutshell she ended the relationship right in front of her. Before we got there (the drive is about 1hour 15mins) she was already yelling and screaming at me. When she got home she wasn’t ready for the calm cool not taking any crap me. It set her off. The dogs were cowering. I kept my cool. She said I need to quit or not go to the trip. She then said she would write the resignation letter herself and hoped I would get fired. It got heated enough then that I said then I am going to go by myself right now. I got the threat of if you leave don’t come back. Blocked me from getting in the car. I didn’t push the matter and remained calm and went back inside. I convinced her to go with me. Half way there (screaming all the way practically) she said turn around. I said then call and cancel and I will. I turned around she didn’t call and I turned around again and we went to the apt. She said she wasn’t going in and if I left the keys in the car she would leave me there. Should have seen if she actually would but I took the keys and we went in. 

The counselor was not ready to see Jodie like that. Then on the way home after about 20 mins of yelling at me and saying she wished I would die on the way to training trip I snapped. I said calm down or I am not going to talk to you. She began to yell louder. She began to scream at the top of her lungs. She shook in her seat and through the worst 2 year old tantrum with the worst expletives I have ever heard. She must of said “Talk to me” “Answer me”  Over and over about 1000 times. She then began crying and screaming an whaling. I have never ever seen a grown person do that. I held my gaze on the road for almost a full hour without responding.  I ignored all of it. Surprisingly enough it was easy once I stuck to it. Even when she threatened to have the Police waiting for us when we got home. I knew that was a hail mary attempt at getting me to respond. Finally she did run out of gas and I responded calmly. She then got angry and I shut down.

We got home and she said over and over and over she can’t do this and to just leave. She was broken at that point and completely exhausted. She was actually using honest words and not yelling or name calling by this point.  Do that was my night. I think we are moving on but when she wakes up she might be all back to things are not ok but we are not splitting up.  In all of that I am sure I mentioned I will ask to change the dates. However also she said nothing will change anyway even if she goes. So I don’t know what to make of that.

[popeye6031]

Well done on getting through that night.  You held your calm very well.  Don't think I could have.  So, as it ended she wanted you to move out?  As you were saying, things may change this morning.  Though I do not think that things will change for your stress levels if you stay together.

[Cipher13]

Oh no I do not thing my stress will change until I do leave. If she is honestly ready to call it quits as it seemed clear last night I will let her go. I say I will see what the morning brings because just at the end of the night she still kept insiting that I can't go on this trip if we are like this. To me that means she isn't final on me leaving the house then.  And more stress for not knowing.

[123Phoebe]

Cipher, please try to get out of her head and get your own focus clear and straightened away.  Until you do this, things will be up and down and round and round and topsy turvy.

Someone needs to be the adult, someone needs to step out of the madness and take the emotional lead.

What do you want to do?

[Waddams]

Even when she threatened to have the Police waiting for us when we got home.

Take this seriously.  Most guys in this situation don't until it's too late.  If you weren't recording her tantrum, please have something ready for the next one.  She keeps escalating her behavior to worse and worse based on the new you she's seeing.  She's trying to regain control.  At some point, there's a very real risk she'll call and make false accusations.  It's a way to get something real to she can use to hang over your head.  It's also very hard to defend against.  Having the recordings of her rantings, and you not responding, can be key to convincing one of the boys in blue that you didn't do what she accuses of and saving yourself a trip to the slammer.

Your well being and future is at stake.  You need to put yourself first, and if she continues escalating like this, I'd strongly advise you find some other place to be.

[Cipher13]

I know she pulls me into her head and I don't like it in there.

What do I want to do? I want to find peace. I want nothing more than to find peace and blance. I am not looking for perfection by any means when I am saying I want to find peace.

In my mind I have made the decission to leave this relationship. Some of my actions and words are starting to show this I think. I can't find the strength yet ro follow trough. I know in my head it is the right thing to do. Its right for both of us. I even heard her say something like that to.  

[Cipher13]

At some point, there's a very real risk she'll call and make false accusations.

As I read this the thought came into my mind of the other morning when she sent a text that she bumped he face on the new dresser becasue she didn't turn the light on.  She has a mark from that. Now I am scared. I would have tried to record that if I wasn't driving the car while it was going on.

[Waddams]

As I read this the thought came into my mind of the other morning when she sent a text that she bumped he face on the new dresser becasue she didn't turn the light on.  She has a mark from that. Now I am scared. I would have tried to record that if I wasn't driving the car while it was going on.

Find a way to keep the text.  Take a picture of it or something. 

I have seen some police departments are better about this sort of thing then others.  It might be good for you to stop by the local precinct office and just ask to talk to an officer that might be around.  Explain your issue, concerns about what might happen, and ask for advice how to stay out of trouble.  The first thing they'll tell you is to not be around her, but they might have some other pointers for you too.

I once pulled the car over during a rant, into a parking lot of some store, turned the car off, grabbed the keys, got out, and walked into the store.  Told her I wasn't going to stay in the car and let her rage at me like that.  Also told her I wasn't going to drive off and leave her, and when she could ride without treating me like that, we'd continue driving.

[allibaba]

Cipher,

I think that you did great last night.  If you want to get your relationship back on track this is the first step.  If you want to become healthier and end the relationship then this is the first step!

Cipher, please try to get out of her head and get your own focus clear and straightened away.  Until you do this, things will be up and down and round and round and topsy turvy.

Someone needs to be the adult, someone needs to step out of the madness and take the emotional lead.

What do you want to do?

Phoebe is right - what do you want?  Figure it out and then do it.

And yes, I'm glad that Waddams is pointing out to be careful.  At this point, its definitely possible that she'll do whatever it takes to get control of you again.  And if she thinks she is losing you... .then she'll throw you to the wolves.  But please, please prepare so that you don't have to live in fear. 

******

One piece of advise that I got (which I really appreciated) is go to the police station (or call) and speak to someone in a non-emergency situation (before something bad happens) and tell them what you are dealing with. 

*  Explain that you do not want to make a complaint, you want to use the police as a valuable resource to avoid something bad happening.  Explain that your wife suffers from undiagnosed mental illness and that you are taking action under the advise of a therapist to improve your entire domestic situation. 

*  Make sure when you go that you are very calm and well spoken. 

*  Explain that in the past that she has made threats to call the police to control you even though you have never laid a hand on her and that you hear stories of false accusations. 

*  Explain that you are not ending your relationship and that you are only speaking to them because:

1. you want to understand the law in your area and

2. you know that they have lots of good experience with domestic violence/ abuse and their experience may help you better navigate this situation. 

By doing this you gain the following: 

1. understanding of the local law

2. someone on the police force that has already heard your story and fears and can help you to understand the reality of your situation. 

3. A friend on the police (if something does go wrong). 

I have spoken to the police a couple of times.  At one point when things were really bad back in July, one of the local police gave me his work cellphone number (to ask for advice only).  He asked that I always call dispatch in an emergency or if I needed something formally documented.  I live in a small town and now without anything going on record, the police here know that if I call and say HELP that I really mean it.

By doing the above, you can calm your fears and put yourself in a better position to real with reality. 

Keep identifying your fears and dealing with them!  We're all proud of you.

[allibaba]

I have seen some police departments are better about this sort of thing then others.  It might be good for you to stop by the local precinct office and just ask to talk to an officer that might be around.  Explain your issue, concerns about what might happen, and ask for advice how to stay out of trouble.  The first thing they'll tell you is to not be around her, but they might have some other pointers for you too.

Hi Waddams!  Glad that we are on the same page. 

[Cipher13]

I never really gave the police matter any real thought. Is that some what common? I don't have the text saved unfortunatley. However if you read anything that is still on there you clearly see who is the calm cool and collected one. 

Does having a close relative in the police force help at all. My brother is cheif of police for a small town that isn't near me but can that help? Or is that a conflict of interest?  Also wanted to ask about T question. When we were in the appt last night wife brought up an issue that I had spoke to the T prior in a separate personal session. T made no mention that she had heard it before from me. I thought nothing of it until my wife says "see you never brought that up before".  Would that fall under the confdentiallity agreement even between spouces?

Have to say you have me a little freaked about the police issue. But knowldge is power. Thank you. Last night was hard to listen to but it felt right. especially the silence in the car. Horible noises to listen to but I was able to block it out somehow.

[Waddams]

I never really gave the police matter any real thought. Is that some what common?

There are scores of guys on this site that have been arrested and had to defend themselves against false abuse, battery, and assault claims.

In my case, she went berserk one night after we were in bed.  It had started with stopping by a local watering hole for a snack and a drink.  She got a bit intoxicated, and started into one of her downward spirals that always ended up with ranting at me.  It escalated in the car, she started poking and pushing me while I was driving.  Went on and off once we were home.  Eventually we went to bed.

She woke me up by pushing me, poking at me in the shoulder (as in "you ass!" while poking me), and ranting even more.  Got really really bad, worst it had been to that point.  I got up and went to spare bedroom, closed the door.  She tried to break it down to get at me.  I braced it with my body for a while.  She quit, I thought things were going to finally peter out after a while, so laid down on spare bed.  A few minutes later she busted in the door and came in screaming, and physically battering me.  Lots of pushing, shoving, grabbing, etc.  I tried to get out and she got a hold of my arm and got kind of a bear hug on it, screaming, etc.

Now, I've got torn ligaments in wrist that she had a hold off.  She was hurting me.  I kept yelling "let go, you're hurting me!" and she kept saying "___ you! i'm not letting go!" And at this point to say I was in kind of a mental state of "Oh $h1t! Danger will robsinson!" is an understatement.  After all, she'd just broken in a locked door.  I got my torn ligaments in martial arts training mishaps, and believe me, I know how to get someone to let go of just about any hold on me if it comes down to it.

I didn't even really think, it's just the level of stress I was under from her attack hit a trigger level, and I have to say I kind of hit "fight or flight" on an instinctual level.  Out popped a technique that really only works when an attacker insists on hanging on.  She did.  It worked.  The only way to escape the pain once it locks down is dive to the ground.  It's what the technique does.  It forces AND motivates an attacker to go to the ground.  She dove rather quickly, and then proceeded to keep screaming even more hysterically. 

I went back in spare room, braced door shut again, called cops.  After their questioning, because she had a small bruise on her wrist where the technique locked up, I got arrested.  She admitted what she had basically chased me from one room to another, broken in the door, etc.  Didn't matter.

I ended up doing a 24 week DV class, and the charge got dropped after completion.  Got to go meet with a probation officer, pay a bunch of costs for the probation, DV class, etc.  Fun times.  My L did get the prosecutor to allow me to expunge my record after completion of the program.

I'll never forget how she twisted all the events to the cops, made herself into the poor victim, etc.  And later on, she would gloat and mock about the situation and how she really had me in her control because one phone call and I was off to jail again on a probbie violation.  I had to ride things out with her until I was done w/ the class and had the case totally adjudicated.  Was almost a year of putting up with that crap.  As soon as it was all done, I broke up w/ her and threw her out of my house.

[allibaba]

Does having a close relative in the police force help at all. My brother is cheif of police for a small town that isn't near me but can that help? Or is that a conflict of interest? 

Hi Cipher,

No, you're better off to seek help/ advise from police officers that you don't know.  I know someone who was actually charged with a crime by prosecution (false allegations) because their brother was a police officer and the brother kept trying to explain that the charge was bogus.  They ended up dealing with almost 2 yrs of legal bs because the prosecution didn't want to be seen to be favoring a police officer's brother. 

The point of getting help/ advise is more about preparing yourself than anything.  The police have seen it all and generally they are pretty good at what they do.  You have to be careful about what you say to them as well.  If I accidentally told them that my husband had threatened to "cave my face in" which happened in May, then in my area they would be obligated to haul my husband to jail and they put in place an order where he would not be able to have contact with me or my son for 2 yrs.  The police take threats very seriously.  The place to be careful with police and the thing that I never understood is that police don't worry about the impact of charging someone and they don't need to be "sure" or "fair."  They leave it up to the legal system to figure that out.  They don't take into account the fact that the legal system often destroys people while those people are trying to prove their innocence.

Waddams thanks for the reminder of what can happen.

Knowledge is power. 

Last night was hard to listen to but it felt right. especially the silence in the car. Horible noises to listen to but I was able to block it out somehow.

Cipher what you have hear is the first little bit of standing up for yourself.  Congratulations.  It felt right because it was right.

[Cipher13]

WOW!

She was able to get out of her work requirements and now can attend this trip.  I had said if she can change her schedule then fine but I can't change mine.

At this point there might end up being another situation that cuases her to want me to leave prior to going. Like the last time. She wasn't going then she was going thern she wasn't going. The night before she decided to go. Then it was unpleasant when she was there. I have a lot of new found confidence in myself.

Its the begining of a new me. Thanks for the info and the support everyone.

[Waddams]

You're an adult.  Adults are allowed to change their minds.  You are entitled to tell her given the level conflict and stress that you need some time away to recharge.  Tell her you don't want her to go.  This can be done in a way that reinforces that it doesn't mean you are abandoning her.  You are taking care of yourself, and coming back.  

She's going to rant and rage again.  Be prepared.  But also remember she's doing this because she's never had to learn how to regulate her emotions before.  She'll have to learn that now, which is good for you and her.

[allibaba]

You're an adult.  Adults are allowed to change their minds.  You are entitled to tell her given the level conflict and stress that you need some time away to recharge.  Tell her you don't want her to go.  This can be done in a way that reinforces that it doesn't mean you are abandoning her.  You are taking care of yourself, and coming back.  

I don't agree here.  My husband is the yo-yo in our relationship - not me (anymore).  If I tell him, you can't come unless you change your work schedule... .and he goes and changes his work schedule... .then it makes me seem kind of nuts if I turn around and then tell him... ."never mind.  I know that you changed your work schedule, but now I have decided you can't come anyway." 

Not exactly the way to develop trust in a fragile relationship or seem trustworthy.  True you are an adult and you can change your mind and I agree that she's put you through a ridiculous amount of stress over this... .but the reality is that our spouses are more sensitive than normal folks and need to be treated with love and care.  If you didn't want her to come in the first place (the truth) then you should have told her up front that it was a work trip and she couldn't come.  As my husband says "you make your bed hard, you lay hard."   

Just my 2 cents.  Its just an opinion but if I was your wife and you changed your mind now, I would be livid and it wouldn't be unreasonable.  Its just my opinion and I may be wrong but wanted to say my piece.

[Cipher13]

Now I get "If you don't want me to go I won't go." Happend last time to.  Before she said that I had made my mind up that I said she can go if she can changer her schedule. In that I was not going to change my stand firm behavior to outbursts and rages. I'm not taking crap and falling for it.

This another set up. I will tell her that its her call. I said she can go. She made the arangements to change her schedule. If she chooses not to go then its her call to make.

[allibaba]

This another set up. I will tell her that its her call. I said she can go. She made the arangements to change her schedule. If she chooses not to go then its her call to make.

I'm so excited.  Its a new Cipher!  Being responsible for yourself and not her.  YAY!   

[Cipher13]

   

Yes thank you. I do not feel the say kind of stress today. I am not afraid of the outcomes anymore.

[allibaba]

 

Yes thank you. I do not feel the say kind of stress today. I am not afraid of the outcomes anymore.

It will come in waves.  Some days you will be really strong and some days you will be totally terrified.  Just remember my husband's favorite saying "Courage is not the absence of fear.  its feeling the fear and doing what you have to do anyway!" 

I love your tone.  Its so strong compared to yesterday at the same time.

Allibaba

[Waddams]

I don't agree here.  My husband is the yo-yo in our relationship - not me (anymore).  If I tell him, you can't come unless you change your work schedule... .and he goes and changes his work schedule... .then it makes me seem kind of nuts if I turn around and then tell him... ."never mind.  I know that you changed your work schedule, but now I have decided you can't come anyway."

Alibaba - I totally understand what you're saying.  I guess my feelings on it is if the BPD can get it together and not be a distraction from what is required work wise, then all is well.

On the other hand, I know I had times when I was dealing with the same craziness that I had to find a way to put my foot down and change what I said because when she was dysregulated, it changed the equation for me.  Once I had the strength to do it, I wasn't willing to expose myself to her rantings and rages.  I did change my mind and change what I said I would do several times because if I hadn't, I'd have been dealing with a worse situation down the road. 

I just believe these situations are fluid and to get through them best, we have be able to put ourselves first, and if our needs in a specific situation change, then so be it.

In this case, if Cipher can be effective at his work tasks with her along, great.  If he can't, I don't see a problem with the change in position.  After all, she's just had a major outburst and things have escalated recently.  I, personally, wouldn't see a problem with the position that in light of the recent escalated issues, it changes the situation and therefore changes certain decisions.

Just my humble opinion.  I think all view points given so far are good ones!

[Surnia]

 

Yes thank you. I do not feel the say kind of stress today. I am not afraid of the outcomes anymore.

This is so great! 

Keep going with this new feeling.

[Surnia]

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