Either she gets to comes with me or I have to find a new job...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

How does everyone handle when you do stand your ground or have to change you mind. Thats when things get hostile. I know i said this but it is now that.  pwBPD doen't seem to take well to that.

So I will see how this unfolds tomorrow when I get told "officially" I can't move it because its been booked for car for me and flight fo rthe other person. Not to mention hotel with a deposit put down... I'll let you know.

[Cipher13]

How does everyone handle when you do stand your ground or have to change you mind. Thats when things get hostile. I know i said this but it is now that.  pwBPD doen't seem to take well to that.

So I will see how this unfolds tomorrow when I get told "officially" I can't move it because its been booked for car for me and flight fo rthe other person. Not to mention hotel with a deposit put down... I'll let you know.

[Waddams]

Just my opinion, but I think you let go of worrying about their reactions.  You can't control it.  You can't control them, or fix them.  You can only do what you need to do.

If you need to go on a work trip, and she can't go, you still need to go on a work trip.  Her reactions are her responsibility.  Further, you have a right, and really an obligation to yourself, to protect yourself from her rages and acting out.  Loving someone doesn't mean letting them hurt you.  You know what is reasonable, what is okay as for protecting yourself (i.e. - leaving and not letting her rage on you).  She'll come up with all kinds of drama as to why that is wronging her, why holding your boundaries is wronging her, victimizing her, etc.  You just have to let do what she does and remember not to internalize it as about you.

Same thing regarding when you have to change your mind about something.  If she takes it personally and rages again, same as above, you know why it was reasonable for you to change your mind, and that it's not a bad thing.  Let her do what she does in response, and be willing to protect yourself.  Leave so she can't yell at you if face to face.  Don't answer the texts, phone calls, etc.  Or calmly tell her you're sorry that she's so upset, but you also won't let her rage at you on the phone, you're going to go, and hang up.  And don't answer the inevitable immediate call back. 

Just don't participate in the antics.  Estabilshing distance from the rage, cycling, antics, etc. is not the same things as distancing from her.  You can still behave in a mature way in a relationship on your side. 

And be prepared for the extinction burst from her.  It will come.  Be ready for a long weekend out of town on your own or something.  Be sure you can have what you need to distance yourself from her acting out.  If you wish to continue in the relationship, that's fine too, just be sure to tell her that, and emphasize you're distancing yourself from her acting out, and when she's able to act like a mature grown up, you want to continue things with her.

[Cipher13]

Be sure you can have what you need to distance yourself from her acting out.  If you wish to continue in the relationship, that's fine too, just be sure to tell her that, and emphasize you're distancing yourself from her acting out, and when she's able to act like a mature grown up, you want to continue things with her.

She doesn't allow for me to say anything on how she is recting. Its because of me and what I did or is doing now or about to do. Tomorrow will suck but life sucks so just another day.

[popeye6031]

How does everyone handle when you do stand your ground or have to change you mind. Thats when things get hostile. I know i said this but it is now that.  pwBPD doen't seem to take well to that.

I have to say I have felt alot better about things since standing my ground; still stressed but better.  I have been accused of pushing her away by doing it but the way I look at it is that if she cannot handle normal relationship boundaries and expectations then then it is not my problem.  If it results in the end of the relationship for me, then so be it, I am not the one losing out.

And as much as your wife may think that is not the case she soon will.  It is a power struggle and for now she has all the power. No matter what you seem to do, she is coming back with some counter argument. You and every other non know that those arguments are illogical, so just remember that and stick to your guns.

I think that a big part of you wants to walk away from this relationship and it is not for us to push you in either way but you got to do what is best for you.   Sso easy to say, I know.

[Waddams]

She doesn't allow for me to say anything on how she is recting. Its because of me and what I did or is doing now or about to do. Tomorrow will suck but life sucks so just another day.

I mean this gently, but that's okay for you if she does that.  You still can control yourself and hold your boundary.  She's trying to get you to accept blame for her actions and behaviors.  You can not accept it whether she listens to anything else or not.  

At some point, if she won't stop raging, you are justified in leaving the situation.  I encourage you to do so.  :)on't yell back, don't rage back at her, don't insult her.  Just tell her you are leaving because you have a right to not be treated that way, and stay calm.  Then follow through.

Being that I've spent the majority of time on this site in the Legal Forum, I'm sure I'm biased, but I'd have a recorder going in my pocket.  Either a unit you purchased, or a cell phone app, etc.  Something to document in the event she dysregulates to the point of calling the police and making false accusations.

If she tries to obstruct you from leaving, or gets physical, do as little as possible back, and just figure out how to get out.  If she hits you some, let her.  Leave the situation, calm down, then decide how to proceed.  :)O NOT LAY HANDS ON HER IN ANY WAY, FOR ANY REASON, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, EVEN IN SELF DEFENSE.  I learned the hard way that the criteria the police will use to determine the primary aggressor will always work against the man.  Trust me, you are better off afterward with the cops if you have marks on you and she has absolutely nothing.  They will look for physical evidence, and if she has any mark, even just a little temporary red spot, they'll look at you as the primary aggressor.  It's not so much male bias, they are just trained to do so because the guidelines issued to them through the law require it.  And don't call the cops during an incident.  In fact never call them in the heat of the moment.  Just escape, calm down, figure out your next move afterwards.

[Grey Kitty]

She doesn't allow for me to say anything on how she is recting. Its because of me and what I did or is doing now or about to do. Tomorrow will suck but life sucks so just another day.

You don't have to say anything about how she's reacting.

You also don't have to stay and listen while she rages/guilts/verbally abuses you.

I know the biggest turning point I had was when I realized that there were times where my wife was not going to stop picking at me and poking at me, and accusing me of all sorts of horrible things... .and I didn't have to talk sense into her. (And if I somehowconvinced her that I didn't do horrible thing #1 that she was upset about, she would just switch directions and find something else to continue with instead) I didn't have to get her to stop. All I had to do was remove myself from the situation, as listening to it would only harm me.

Yes, there were some extinction bursts, but she stopped the verbal abuse when she realized that her target for it would consistently go away.

Protecting your career is very important. Don't give up on that.

 GK

[Surnia]

Hi Cipher

So much good things said here- I am reading your tough story and all I can say: Keep going. Focus on your work. There is no need to say why it cannot be scheduled to another date.

As for being assertive: You can try it out. Look for a place with no other people. Perhaps you go with your car to a quiet parking lot and than you tell her, that you will go on the conference. Speak it out loud. I would not so much focus on being nice but assertive. Speak it again. Perhaps you even take a record with your phone... .firm voice. Shoulders and head straight... .

(This kind of practicing is what my T did with me at the end of my marriage. Again and again.   )

I agree with you: Nothing to loose.

Sending you strengh! 

[Cipher13]

I told her about the trip... .here is how it went:

Me:

"I talked to the person in charge of arranging and booking trips. She says its already booked and can’t be changed. Plane ticket and the hotel rooms have a deposit put down.  The trip is already booked and set up.

I know that you are probably very upset about this. I need to go to this and it does not look like it can be changed. There isn’t much else I can do. We can find a way to still make this work with as little impact as possible.  Can you push your work any more to go or is that a no go as much as me pushing this out?


Her:

"This is not ok at all. I am extremely upset about this and do not see any way to "make this work out". Pack your crap and leave or find another job"

[Surnia]

You: 

Her: As expected. Totally black&white thinking.

How do you feel now?

What do you think you are doing?

[Waddams]

One - you don't have to leave your home.

Two - go to your conference.  Let her rage.  Isolate yourself from it.

Three - protect yourself.  Keep a recorder going around her.  That way if she starts something that could involve cops, you can document what you did or didn't do.  

Do you have a safety plan?  At one point, I kept a garbage bag with a spare set of clothes, travel toiletry kit, $250 cash, spare shoes, etc. in the truck of my car in the space under trunk floor where the spare tire was.  I kept a spare check card in my glove box as well.  I kept it hidden so she wouldn't see it if I opened the trunk.  I did have need of that stuff one night, and was very glad I was prepared.

As I've advised others, no matter how crazy she gets, if she gets physical, your best reaction is to leave.  :)o not touch her, not even to "protect her" if she's just flailing around (I saw my ex- just flat flop herself on the ground and flail like a 3 year old having a fit multiple times).

Keep your distance from her, let her do and say what she does.  If it gets bad, then leave.  Sleep on the couch, whatever you need.  Hold your boundaries and let her rage.

I know it's not easy, it's scary, it's stressful, and it royally sucks.  She's going to pull every trick in the book from guilt, to mocking you, to raging, etc.  It's not you, it's her. Don't forget that.  Try not to lose your cool, and don't do anything to escalate back towards her.  

For now, you're just gonna have to ride out her reaction and see what happens next if you're going to stay with her.

Good luck, keep posting here, and we'll be around to keep you pepped up!

[GaGrl]

Her:

"This is not ok at all. I am extremely upset about this and do not see any way to "make this work out". Pack your crap and leave or find another job"

When we talk about boundaries, we talk about them being connected to values.  What is your value around being told to find another job, i.e. having your uBPD wife control and direct a career you have chosen?

One's choice of work and career can be, for many people, a core value.  It's one of the ways many of us "show up" in the world, and how we contribute to a greater good.  If you view your work and career this way, the prospect of having your wife control it must be daunting.

What are you thinking now?

[allibaba]

I told her about the trip... .here is how it went:

Me:

"I talked to the person in charge of arranging and booking trips. She says its already booked and can’t be changed. Plane ticket and the hotel rooms have a deposit put down.  The trip is already booked and set up.

I know that you are probably very upset about this. I need to go to this and it does not look like it can be changed. There isn’t much else I can do. We can find a way to still make this work with as little impact as possible.  Can you push your work any more to go or is that a no go as much as me pushing this out?


Her:

"This is not ok at all. I am extremely upset about this and do not see any way to "make this work out". Pack your crap and leave or find another job"

I think that you did great.  How do you think that you did?  You were gentle and strong.  The important thing at this point is to do what you need to do and not get caught up in trying to make her feel better.  If you are going ever going to have a life - it has to start with simple stuff like this.  Now do whatever you need to do to not get caught up in the aftermath of her tantrum.

[Cipher13]

The reply I was expecting again:...

"No it will not be ok in the end. You said that they woukd change it and now they won't! Why would they have even scheduled it when you kept saying that it was not even for sure and you just found out about it! You are a liar!"

I have not reponded to this one. Also I am trying to keep these conversations via email so I cansave them. I can't save the texts on my phone. Its pretty old.

As far as stuff hidden away good idea. But she is very nosey and looks for that stuff. Has gone through my phone many many times. She is now telling me to change it. This is where I know I need the most help. I need not to cave. She is a master at making me cave for this kind of stuff.

[wishfulthinking]

Very proud of you Cipher13.  You did great on your approach.  I don't see that you should do anything to change it and you need to just let her be.  The fact is, she doesn't truly in her heart want you to leave or she would have left by now.  It's her scare tactic, her guilt trip to get what she wants.  I let mine go one night.  Didn't stop him.  Told him if he wants to go that badly, then I must make him that unhappy and I accept and respect his decision.  Only once since then has he threatened to leave (last rage with the "incident" and he backtracked on it very quickly.  Hold strong, you can do this. 

[popeye6031]

Lostinparadise is right Cipher, stick to your guns on this and do not give in.  She is testing you.  You cannot change it and are not going to leave your job. So, only option is to stay with your decision.  You are going alone and she can just deal with it.  If she throws you out before you go or by the time you return (which again will just be a test), you will not have lost anything.  She will be the one losing out.

[Waddams]

As far as stuff hidden away good idea. But she is very nosey and looks for that stuff. Has gone through my phone many many times. She is now telling me to change it. This is where I know I need the most help. I need not to cave. She is a master at making me cave for this kind of stuff.

In a relationship, there's a balance to hit between proper individual privacy/boundaries, and secrecy.  JMHO, but secrecy really doesn't have much place in intimate relationships.  I don't keep secrets from my fiance.  

However, there are still items/issues that are your private issues, others that are hers, and it's really appropriate for you each to stay out of each others private issues, such as job related issues.  You're not the first non- to deal with a BPD that I would say mistakes secrecy vs. individual privacy/boundaries.  She believes if she doesn't have complete knowledge and control, then there's a risk of a secret that will harm her.  She's operating out of deep seated fear in this regard.  She doesn't trust you (and chances she doesn't trust anyone).  She can't manage her intense fear well, and she lashes out.  She's really asking you to protect her from her own deep seated fears right now.  She's trying to make you responsible for managing her own intense emotions because she cannot do it for herself.

You can never successfully be responsible for another person's emotions.  It's a no win proposition.  She's got to learn to regulate herself, she can't rely on you, or anyone else, forever.  I'd advise you to not try at all, and let her regulate herself.  She's going to rage because deep down she's terrified.  You've got to let her feel it all and come through it, then, maybe, eventually she'll see when it's over that she's okay and it turned out okay with you.  

Be responsible to yourself.  You don't have to be responsible for how she feels.

[Cipher13]

I am now getting the f-bombing texts and i am not responding to them. I am only trying email and I am not responding quickly at all. I know she is fuming. I feel pretty good. Nervous as heck when it comes time to face her later. We are supposed to have counseling apt tonight. She hasn't wanted to go. Doubt this changes her mind any more to go.

I thank you for the suport. If I can keep it up then it will be a battle well fought and something I have needed to do for years. I just can't cave in now.

[wishfulthinking]

You are getting the extinction burst I've read about, I bet.  The more seasoned members would know more on this.  You are doing the right thing.  You can do this. I quit responding to hateful texts and I hang up on mine when he starts to call names.  He wasn't happy about it at first, but it has lessoned for sure.  Hold strong.  Let her rage, you can't stop it, but you can control your own actions. 

[Cipher13]

So a new threat has been given. She applied for a job on the other side of the state. She said sh doesn't care if i like my job if she gets is "we" are going there.  Its another baited line with a hook on it. I have just swam past it and ignored it.

[Waddams]

My uBPDxgf did this in the final breakup, and several times before.  :)on't engage in the nastiness.  Concentrate on your job and stay in the moment.  Even with my older phone, I could forward texts to my email.  I'd just hit "FWD" and then type in email address.  It might be prudent if you can do something to preserve the texts she's sending, particularly if there are threats included.  Go to counseling.  If she doesn't attend, document that with the counselor.  Leave with the documentation.  If her ranting doesn't abate, and you have another option for a place to go, then don't go home.  In my own experience, I went to a hotel and just bit the bullet on the cost, and used my clothing stash.  If you don't have a stash, you can find some inexpensive store for a new outfit tomorrow, pick up small travel toiletries, etc.  Find a place grab some grub, let the phone meltdown, and try to do something to relax yourself.  In my case, I splurged on a steak at an Outback across the street from a hotel.  Had to have received 100 txts while eating.  She was in the process of posting FB messages, calling relatives, and friends, and endlessly calling and texting me.  I did get a few calls/texts from others asking "dude what's going on?  are you okay?  she's lost it!".

Believe me... .the expenses are infinitely cheaper than making bond and hiring a L to defend you in the aftermath of a really bad night with a BPD.  If she won't quit with the phone assault, she won't quit once you're home.  The only thing I'd advise to send her is something to the effect of you are staying away and not contacting her as long as she is acting like this.  When she can calm down and is able to resolve things maturely, you'll be happy to do so.  Then no more contact until her ranting burns itself out.

[Cipher13]

Thanks Waddam

I will keep the apt. I can test the waters upon leaving and if she is ina rage I will stay away. I might just pack a couple itmes liek you said aNPDut them away just in case. The utlamatim again was sent via email. "You need to change these dates and that's final or get out of my life"

I have tied to fwd texts and i get errors. I can forward a picture i took to email but not the texts. I have documents what I can and the T has some and understands whats going on. Too bad my wife doesn't though. She is locked in her mind that its my fault.

[Waddams]

I have a friend that took pictures of the texts on her phone when an ex- was harassing and stalking her.  She then used the pics to present as evidence to get a TPO.

[allibaba]

Thanks Waddam

I will keep the apt. I can test the waters upon leaving and if she is ina rage I will stay away. I might just pack a couple itmes liek you said aNPDut them away just in case. The utlamatim again was sent via email. "You need to change these dates and that's final or get out of my life"

I have tied to fwd texts and i get errors. I can forward a picture i took to email but not the texts. I have documents what I can and the T has some and understands whats going on. Too bad my wife doesn't though. She is locked in her mind that its my fault.

Stay strong Cipher.  You don't have an option here.  If you want a good life (with or without her) you cannot cave to every little whim.  Its so so so nerve wracking at first.  But honestly - it will get better.  You will get stronger.

My family gets multiple sane days in a row now on a regular basis because of the work that I put in here on boundaries.  There was a point in my life where we didn't go a single day without a violent meltdown (April).  On Friday morning, my husband started swearing at me when I was packing his lunch.  I calmly turned to him and said "Nope.  Sorry.  You call me names and that is the end of our conversation."  He smashed a cereal bowl and threw his coffee cup and said that he wanted a divorce.  Its been more than a month since the last outburst, but I walked away from it with my dignity and that is what is important.  All throughout the day, I disconnected when he got crazy.  I was honest with him.  Well guess what... .  The tantrum didn't last long and we had a nice honest, good weekend.  My husband is under some stress right now so I suspect that its going to be a rocky few days/ weeks... .but at least I have my dignity.

Good luck.

[Cipher13]

There has now be an over abundance of extinction burst texts. All focusing on me getting the heck out of the house to put it nicely. I am not responding to those texts. I am keeping it focused. Now if she keeps insinting that I leave... .I will just call her bluff and walk away.  I am not the one that is wanting to leave but at this point now I beileve i certainly do want to get out of this hell.


I am now wondering if she will sabatage my job here... .(more than i let her by constant texting). Any advice on how to prevent that?

[Cipher13]

Do i ignore this:

"I don't understand how this is even happening!  You said that you didn't even know the dates for sure so how is it that the hotel and flight was already booked? Explain that one since you have a reason for everything.  I already know the answer you lied and said that you would try to change it and never had any intention. I could care less of a stupid black eye on your career! I should come first not your stupid job! You job is stupid and so are you for wanting to put that first and not me!  I wish you would get fired! I told you that I didn't want you going back to there and now here we are again in the same situation.  You had no intention to try to change anything.  As far as I am concerned you did all this on purpose! You don't seem to get the fact that you are not trusted or even close to being seen as trustworthy!  What even gave you the idea that any of this would be fine!"

So... .I do think it possible she might do something to my job now for sure!

[allibaba]

You may want to reply short and sweet.

"Our relationship is important to me.  I know that you think that I don't care about you and that must be a horrible feeling.  Unfortunately I don't have control over the work conference/ training.  That date is the only option for me."

Don't argue about being trustworthy... .or about being a liar.  She's just trying to pull you into JADE.

I also wouldn't call her on her bluff and leave the house.  That's an easy escape for her. Unless its a temporary move to remove yourself from abuse and then I would make it quite clear that you are coming back.

I thought that you had a boundary about only texting her during breaks and lunch -- what happened?

[allibaba]

So... .I do think it possible she might do something to my job now for sure!

Its all probably just a scare tactic.  If you do think that you are at risk and feel comfortable discussing your situation with HR... .then do so.

The one time that my husband threatened to come to my work and make a scene.  I told the head of HR about it.  He said "you realize that if he comes here and creates drama, we will call the police."  I said "I am comfortable with that" I just wanted to warn you about the potential for a situation.

[Cipher13]

I'm sure it is a scare tactic. We have security and no one can get in without a badge. I still have a boundary for texting. That was email. I havn't been responding. Thus the escalation by her.  I'd rather leave than have to deal with what will be comeing when she gets home. I don't and have never handled those confruntations very well. By that I mean i sit there and take it, nod my head and agree to what ever and say what needs to be said to end the escaltion sooner. They are hours upon hours no though. Truly exhausting.

[popeye6031]

Her argument does not even hold water.  It does not matter that the flights and hotel were booked, you did not know they dates they were booked for, your company did.  Saying that you are not even close to trustworthy is her just trying to stamp her authority and make you doubt yourself.  Stick to your guns.

[Cipher13]

I know it doesn't. In the past I wouldn't have seen itthat way. She is saying what ever she can think of now to get a reaction. Trying to think of what ever I might react to. I can stick to my guns when there is distance or technology between us. In person I hold up like 60 degree water.

This will be like no other arguement before. And we have had ones that last for 20 plus hours. Still if it comes down to it and its fight or flight I will be gone. I am still going to pack a contingensy bag.

So tempted if she says to get out to do just that. I don't want to push for this anymore.