I just don't know how much more I can do

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I'm done. Completely drained. Now I am starting to feel angry and that is soemthing I just do not usually feel.  Last night I missed her phone calls for 12 mins. I was in the woods hunting trying to pick up my gear and ead home. The phone was on silent. She was upset. She knew where I was. I told her. even took a picture before it got dark. Then I come home and I find out I out my t-shirt on insideout when I put it on inthe dark. So what does all of this mean... .I was cheating obviously.  Also she tells me I have a facebook account I am hidding. I explained I don't then looked it up and found there are more than 1 person with my name with facebook pages. I said I can't be all these people.

So I know logic can't work so what am I left with. Compassion? I think its gone. I wanted t leave last night. even put on my coat to go. 2 different times. I stopped myself. Why I so wanted to just drive away. I still so. It was firswt aggreed that I pack up my stuff this afternoon. Then my dumb mouth opens up and all of a sudden i am accepting every demand she gives. I don't want to. She is demanding that I bring her to work and show her around and that is where I hide everyting. She said she needs to have control of that because that is the only thing she can't see or be able to do anything about. Plus I have to quite because she can't control if she is allowed to go in the building. Which she can not get in.

[Cipher13]

I'm done. Completely drained. Now I am starting to feel angry and that is soemthing I just do not usually feel.  Last night I missed her phone calls for 12 mins. I was in the woods hunting trying to pick up my gear and ead home. The phone was on silent. She was upset. She knew where I was. I told her. even took a picture before it got dark. Then I come home and I find out I out my t-shirt on insideout when I put it on inthe dark. So what does all of this mean... .I was cheating obviously.  Also she tells me I have a facebook account I am hidding. I explained I don't then looked it up and found there are more than 1 person with my name with facebook pages. I said I can't be all these people.

So I know logic can't work so what am I left with. Compassion? I think its gone. I wanted t leave last night. even put on my coat to go. 2 different times. I stopped myself. Why I so wanted to just drive away. I still so. It was firswt aggreed that I pack up my stuff this afternoon. Then my dumb mouth opens up and all of a sudden i am accepting every demand she gives. I don't want to. She is demanding that I bring her to work and show her around and that is where I hide everyting. She said she needs to have control of that because that is the only thing she can't see or be able to do anything about. Plus I have to quite because she can't control if she is allowed to go in the building. Which she can not get in.

[allibaba]

Cipher - DON'T CAVE!  She doesn't belong meddling in your professional life.

It won't help her.  Giving in to her demands will only result in her making more demands and life being more and more uncomfortable for you.

Validate her and then move on.

What can you do to take a break?  How about going hunting without your cell phone or that it will be turned off.  State in advance that you will be gone for 3 hrs and it won't be on so she won't be able to get in touch with you.

It may be better (for you long term) to stand up to her and give her the decision to end your relationship if she won't get on board with the healthier you... .then to run and never resolve what is going on inside of you.

[Surnia]

Hi Cipher

I can so relate! All the control stuff and the accusations and mistrust.

You may feel uncomfortable with anger, in your situation its good to have it. It makes you stronger.

Say hello to the thoughts about leaving. Its okay to have it. Even if you don't do it now. You are thinking about it.

What about each day at least one time saying NO? No honey I don't do that. Little things - for practicing. 

[allibaba]

You may feel uncomfortable with anger, in your situation its good to have it. It makes you stronger.

Say hello to the thoughts about leaving. Its okay to have it. Even if you don't do it now. You are thinking about it.

I agree that the anger here is healthy Cipher.  You can use it to motivate you - whether to make changes within your relationship or to leave your relationship... .whatever turns out to be the best decision for you

[Seashells]

Cypher,

Sorry you're going through this.  I can relate.  In my case I've often said to myself... .I'm not going on the merry go round anymore.  Anger also makes me uncomfortable, and fighting off my own anger even moreso.

One way or the other, whether trying to maintain the relationship and learning to say no in the calmest, least hurtful and best way I can, or by leaving it if necessary I had to decide it was going to stop. 

Going along with demands that aren't warranted or comfortable to you are part of being on the merry go round or 'roller coaster', and the BPD partner is leading the dance. 

As I've seen 123Phoebe say to others here on the board (paraphrasing), hold on dearly to your truth and your own rational reality.  It's the only way. 

[Waddams]

Cipher - I know how you feel because I've been there myself.  I have a BPDex that once tried to tell me I had to call her when I was at work every hour, call her when I'm leaving, call her when I'm 1/2 way home, etc.  The level of control they try to exert is unreal.

Here's the thing - the more you give, the more they will take.  You can never give enough.  You can never give in to enough.  There will always be a new demand that will escalate their control further.

Her telling you that you have to quit because she can't get into the office?  This is so out of line to even think it.

I know on this site, we usually try to not do too much "you need to do x, y, z... ." even when it's real clear to the readers here, and instead try to let posters come to their own conclusions and find their own way.  But seriously man, you will not ever be able to appease her adequately.  She will continue to push things farther.  I can feel how drained you are from all this in your posts.  I've been there myself.  The only way out of your predicament is tell her NO, and let her rant and rage.  You can't control what she does, or how she does it.  You can only control yourself.  And the way out for you is to tell her no and let go of how she will react.  Let it be on her.  

[Wrongturn1]

Cipher:  First, I agree with the others about not giving in to her demands.  We all know that only provides temporary soothing for her and ultimately makes the situation worse because 1) it enables/encourages her ridiculous behavior, ensuring more of the same in the future, and 2) it sacrifices your sense of reality, individual rights, and self-worth on the altar of BPD.  I would encourage you to try to validate her feelings without agreeing with her warped “reality” and demands, and take a time-out when she becomes abusive.  

Another thing I plan to experiment with soon is redirecting my wife when she starts to veer away from talking about her feelings and begins to blame/abuse me instead.  Something along the lines of, “Let’s pause for a second.  You are important to me, and I really care about your feelings, and I want to be here for you to work through these things together.  It’s okay for you to feel what you feel – you don’t have to justify your feelings to me b/c I accept you just as you are.  This conversation is starting to delve into topics we have already discussed at length, and I am starting to feel blamed and attacked, which hurts me.  If the conversation continues to go this way, I will need to take a time out and pick it up again later when things are calmer, but I would prefer to be able to stay here with you and really listen to what you are feeling.  Just a minute ago you were talking about your fear of abandonment and how that affects you – could you tell me more about that?”

I’m sure I’ll get a chance to try this soon, and I will try to remember to report on how it goes.

even took a picture before it got dark…  Also she tells me I have a facebook account I am hidding. I explained I don't then looked it up and found there are more than 1 person with my name with facebook pages. I said I can't be all these people.

This type of behavior sounds like JADE on your part.  It typically does not help.

She said she needs to have control of that because that is the only thing she can't see or be able to do anything about. Plus I have to quite because she can't control if she is allowed to go in the building. Which she can not get in.

Enabling her unhealthy controlling tendencies will just make things worse in the long run and might hurt your career.

Hang in there, Cipher.  None of this is easy.  I encourage you to stand up for yourself and your reality.  If you are not pleased with how things are going, the only sane action you can take is for you to start doing things differently in the future.  You can’t keep responding the same way and expect for things to get better.

[rosannadanna]

Cipher,

I remember those days.  They were horrifiying b/c my SO had his line of suspicious questioning down to a science.  He learned from his father:  a narcissistic, antisocial, meth-freak who intermittently interregated my SO or told him he couldn't trust anyone.  Combine that with my codependent sensitivity to criticism, and I was a hot mess.

First you have to start with this:

hold on dearly to your truth and your own rational reality.  It's the only way.  

Then do this:

I would encourage you to try to validate her feelings without agreeing with her warped “reality” and demands, and take a time-out when she becomes abusive.  

“Let’s pause for a second.  You are important to me, and I really care about your feelings, and I want to be here for you to work through these things together.  It’s okay for you to feel what you feel – you don’t have to justify your feelings to me b/c I accept you just as you are.  This conversation is starting to delve into topics we have already discussed at length, and I am starting to feel blamed and attacked, which hurts me.  If the conversation continues to go this way, I will need to take a time out and pick it up again later when things are calmer, but I would prefer to be able to stay here with you and really listen to what you are feeling.  Just a minute ago you were talking about your fear of abandonment and how that affects you – could you tell me more about that?”

This is awesome wrongturn.  If you don't JADE, which will be easier if you know your truth, and use the tools you should hopefully see some improvement.  It sounds like she is going to have a mother of a tantrum before the improvement though, so get ready.  If you do the tools very repetitively while staying emotionally calm (an emotional leader), you will build your confidence.  

If she remains abusive after you have tried all you can, then you have to kind of have the conversation with yourself about what kind of relationship can you tolerate, pros vs. cons, what are you getting out of it, ":)o I radically accept this relationship as it is right now?".

Good luck and take care

[GreenMango]

The word "no" is okay to say.*  It might be your best friend.


*prefacing it in SET or whatever tools to smooth out the edges.

[allibaba]

“Let’s pause for a second.  You are important to me, and I really care about your feelings, and I want to be here for you to work through these things together.  It’s okay for you to feel what you feel – you don’t have to justify your feelings to me b/c I accept you just as you are.  This conversation is starting to delve into topics we have already discussed at length, and I am starting to feel blamed and attacked, which hurts me.  If the conversation continues to go this way, I will need to take a time out and pick it up again later when things are calmer, but I would prefer to be able to stay here with you and really listen to what you are feeling.  Just a minute ago you were talking about your fear of abandonment and how that affects you – could you tell me more about that?”

This is really good stuff... .at the beginning of learning about boundaries you might not be able to get all of this out (at least I wouldn't have been able to).  I found at the beginning, I had to keep it really, really simple.  "I don't feel comfortable with continuing this conversation right now."  "No, I'm sorry I can't do that."  "I need to leave the house before I say something that I might regret."

Maybe prefaced with "I love you very much."

[Cipher13]

Hey thanks to everyone. It was one heck of a bumpy weekend. I made huge mistaek in her eyes by not responding to the phone Saturday morning while I was int he woods hunting. It was on silent and I had my hads full of my things walking out of the woods.  I replied when i got to the car. It was only 20 to 25 mins but that was 19 to 24 mins too long for her. I told her I would try to respond when I could and explained the situation... .I recieved a lecture about how it does not matter what the situation is or the circumstances. When she calls or texts she must have an answer. Otherwise she thinks I am cheating.

Oh the new thing is 'I need proof".  She wants physical proof of things that I can not. Can i prove that I didn't know the phone went off? Can I prove my habds were full and couldn't text her back? Can I prove that my shirt was put on in the dark inside out and that does not prove I had an afair with anyone?  No. She wants actions from me to help her trust me. I don't know what that looks like other than texting and just saying and doing what I meen to say and do. I asked her what would a timeline look like for you to trust me... .She says 6 months of her never having to ask me or remind me that I wasn't following through .


Something i said to her that got throught though. I said I realize that ther eare not simple or small issues. Everything is a big deal, Everything is critical. For her that hit home. For me that confirmed that I have fallen too far down the hole of giving in to everything. My stomach tightens.

[allibaba]

Cipher, I don't think that its a good idea to exhaust yourself trying to prove things to her EVEN IF YOU CAN.

She wants actions from me to help her trust me. I don't know what that looks like other than texting and just saying and doing what I meen to say and do. I asked her what would a timeline look like for you to trust me... .She says 6 months of her never having to ask me or remind me that I wasn't following through .

Really?  Do you want to live like this? No matter how good you are - its never going to be enough.  I am positive of that.

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably say something like "I love you.  I understand that it causes you a great deal of stress of whether to trust me or not.  I really can't prove this to you but I haven't cheaten on you."

Demands ----> Disengage

Abuse ----> Boundaries

Once she starts making demands... .find a way to check out of the conversation.

[GaGrl]

Cipher, you can't prove a negative.  It's a lapse of logic.

[GreenMango]

Cipher, you can't prove a negative.  It's a lapse of logic.

see Cipher what you are up here?

Her demands are getting more unreasonable and paranoid too.  These things grow and I know I made these types of situations way worse by catering to it.

It's like a teacup with a hole in the bottom... .you can keep pouring but eventually you aren't going to have anything left in the pot.

There's some great advice in this thread.  There's another thread in the Workshop board about dealing with jealousy and paranoia from a partner and how to handle it.  Step by step, because these is a slippery slope.

[Wrongturn1]

I asked her what would a timeline look like for you to trust me... .She says 6 months of her never having to ask me or remind me that I wasn't following through .

How nice!  In just 6 months from now, she will finally trust you and life will be great for both of you! [**end sarcasm**]

If she has BPD, she still won't trust you after 6 months of compliant behavior, or 12 months, or 12 years, etc.  By definition, people with BPD have an extreme, pathological fear of abandonment and therefore do not have the ability to trust their spouses.  Regardless of what you do for the next 6 months, she still won't trust you because her trust level is determined by the disorder, not by the objective reality of your good behavior. 

There's also a high probability that if you agree to her demands for "earning" her trust, she will set you up to fail in some way so that she can continue to play the victim indefinitely.

[Proud_Dad]

How nice!  In just 6 months from now, she will finally trust you and life will be great for both of you! [**end sarcasm**]

If she has BPD, she still won't trust you after 6 months of compliant behavior, or 12 months, or 12 years, etc.  By definition, people with BPD have an extreme, pathological fear of abandonment and therefore do not have the ability to trust their spouses.  Regardless of what you do for the next 6 months, she still won't trust you because her trust level is determined by the disorder, not by the objective reality of your good behavior.  

There's also a high probability that if you agree to her demands for "earning" her trust, she will set you up to fail in some way so that she can continue to play the victim indefinitely.

Wrongturn1,

Do you have cameras in my house or something?

Are you following me?

In bold, I have found myself thinking this same thing... .

This has played out in my relationship on a constant basis. Constantly set up to fail. Trust never re-earned... .when will I learn... .

[Wrongturn1]

Proud_Dad: Yes indeed, the cameras I set up in your house are functioning perfectly... .hahaha 

This has played out in my relationship on a constant basis. Constantly set up to fail. Trust never re-earned... .when will I learn... .

But seriously, I hear a variation on this theme quite frequently from my uBPDw.  It goes something like this: "You are always hiding things from me.  I need you to be totally open and honest with me at all times so that I can trust you."  It's like they're all reading from the same script. 

[Proud_Dad]

Wrongturn,

It's like they're all reading from the same script.

I concur.

I am alway hiding something, lying, covering up, not bein honest about my thoughts, or something along those lines.

I just try not to fall into the "JADE trap" and give her my truth. That is all I have anymore... .

[Cipher13]

Yes I can agree to everythign everyone is saying about this. I can see it when more so after the fact. The heat of the moment is different. I have a new T apt for  coming up. We just can't keep going to our old one. Too far and she is too busy and our schedules do not fit.   So it will be just me first. Then the next both of us will attend. How or what do I say. I don't wan tot get painted as the person will say I am. I do own some issues especailly in the past. I hope the T wil be able to see whats going on over time but I wan to establish what is really going on sooner rather than later. 

[Surnia]

So it will be just me first.

These are good news. Be honest about the present. Tell him about your struggles, the same you are telling us. 

[Cipher13]

I planned on doing just that. I have felt in other sessions that I had that I never had enough time to get to everything. If they were every day then maybe. I shouldn't rush it though.

[Cipher13]

I am trying to set up a work related boundary. I asked what she feels she needs from me to feel better about the situation.

> I guess what I need from you is to be kept informed of what is going

> on in your world there.  I feel that you keep that part of your life

> "hidden" from me and that is where a lot of my insecurities come from.

>  Of course a good majority of that is because of what you did in March

> by going back to your home town and not telling me.  That was related to

> your work and maybe that is why I do not want you to be there.

> Because I associate you lying to me with your job... .does that make

> sense.  So I feel that this is a secret hidden part of you that you

> want me to have no part in so you can continue to hide stuff from me... .

So I replied:This work part I am not trying to hide anything from you. What

> I do at work is not any sort of secret. It is my job not yours. I do

> not have anything to hide what so ever.  I realize that what I have

> done back in March is very much directly affecting this and weighs

> heavily on how it makes you feel.  I can see why you might attach my

> job since it was for my job that I did that.  Again I want to assure

> you I am not hiding anything from you with my job or at my job. It's

> just my job and nothing more to it than that.

Now the retaliaon part from her: "it doesn't matter I should know everything that is going on with you there should not be any separation at all!  Please get that through your dang head!  If you don't understand that you should not be keeping anything from me and that nothing in our lives are separate then we will continue to have problems!

Argh!

[Wrongturn1]

In the solo session with the new T, it might be helpful to say something like the following (after giving a brief intro and bio of yourself of course):

"Most of the struggles in our relationship seem to revolve around certain longstanding aspects of her personality, such as:

1) Extreme fear of abandonment and jealousy,

2) Black and white thinking,

3) Impulsiveness,

4) Lacks a sense of identity,

5) Unstable mood and disproportionately angry,

6) Talks about suicide"

This way, while you're not actually coming out and saying she has BPD in the initial appointment, if the T is sharp, BPD will now be on the T's radar screen, and the T will hopefully be able to hone in on the disorder.  

[Wrongturn1]

Now the retaliaon part from her: "it doesn't matter I should know everything that is going on with you there should not be any separation at all!  Please get that through your dang head!  If you don't understand that you should not be keeping anything from me and that nothing in our lives are separate then we will continue to have problems!

An item to add to the list you mention to the new T: unhealthy enmeshment

Hint: Don't buy into her push for complete enmeshment; if nothing in your lives is separate, your problems will get even worse.

[Waddams]

I planned on doing just that. I have felt in other sessions that I had that I never had enough time to get to everything. If they were every day then maybe. I shouldn't rush it though.

Well then tell the T that.  It might help to write it out beforehand so you can read from an outline in the session.  I've done that when visiting my T and had a lot to go over.

Also, it's okay to find yourself your own T, that is just for you, and that your BPD never gets to go see.  At one point, when I was with BPD, I didn't tell her I was seeing a T because I knew what the reaction would be.  I just scheduled sessions with him during work and took PTO time to do it.  His office is 5 minutes away and sometimes I was even able to schedule sessions for lunch hour.  

When she finally found out, she tried to stop me from going anymore, then it was attend with me, etc.  Anything to try to either control it or isolate me from it.  I just put my foot down and said, no it's for me and me only.  She extinction bursted, but it was something I needed to do, and since I was with her, it was something I had to go through, and would continue to be as long as I remained with her.

I also believe very strongly that any joint counseling should be done by a different T than your individual T, but that's a different story to tell some other time!

Good luck!  You're in better shape than you think or feel.  You realize there are issues and you need help solving them, and you are getting the help.  That's all anyone can ask of you.  

And I agree with Wrongturn1 that she is pushing for a level of enmeshment that is super unhealthy for both you and her.  It's hard to keep it straight in the heat of the moment, but remember holding your boundaries against this is also for her own good, even if she disagrees!

[Cipher13]

Great stuff thank you. I will try to spend a few minutes in my free time writing out a quick outline. My wife and I are planing on make out own for the background anyway. I will ad my personal feeling to it.  Agsain thanks for the good advice.

[allibaba]

This work part I am not trying to hide anything from you. What

> I do at work is not any sort of secret. It is my job not yours. I do

> not have anything to hide what so ever.  I realize that what I have

> done back in March is very much directly affecting this and weighs

> heavily on how it makes you feel.  I can see why you might attach my

> job since it was for my job that I did that.  Again I want to assure

> you I am not hiding anything from you with my job or at my job. It's

> just my job and nothing more to it than that.

Now the retaliaon part from her: "it doesn't matter I should know everything that is going on with you there should not be any separation at all!  Please get that through your dang head!  If you don't understand that you should not be keeping anything from me and that nothing in our lives are separate then we will continue to have problems!

Argh!

Cipher in your correspondence with her - you seem like you feel guilty.  Why do you feel guilty?  What do you need to do to be at peace with yourself?  Do you realize that the things that she asks you for are above and beyond what a spouse should have to do.

Tell me:  What does your ideal life seem like?  Can you tell me in a few sentences?

[GreenMango]

What happened in March?

[Cipher13]

Cipher in your correspondence with her - you seem like you feel guilty.  Why do you feel guilty?  What do you need to do to be at peace with yourself?  Do you realize that the things that she asks you for are above and beyond what a spouse should have to do.

Tell me:  What does your ideal life seem like?  Can you tell me in a few sentences?

I feel guilty from things I have done int he past. She holds on to them liek they are fresh as yesterday. I'm not proud of it but I have asked for forgiveness and apologized. I had looked at naked ladies on the internet a few times over the past 12 years of marriage. More so in the first 4 years. Thats where her insecurities and her untrusting feelings come from.

My ideal life consists of being able to not feel like I have to live with the guilt constantly and that I do not have to account for everyhtign I do at every second to make her feel comfortable.

Insert QuoteWhat happened in March?

Her greatest fear stemmed from some dreams before we got married that my parents would either try to convince me to leave and stay with them or that they would take me from her.  I had to go back to my home town to get ma copy of my birth certificate from the courthouse for a passporet for work. KNowing her fears I chose not to tell her I was going there and pretended I was at work. I got home sooner than I expected but was given the rest of the day off. She happend to stop home while on her way to a meeting which at that point she had never done. I was home and supposed to be at work. I had to tell her what I did. I was ashamed I couldn't tell her before but in my mind I was saving myself from an arguement. But I was caught in my lie so the arguement was worse. of course. Thast what happend in March.

[Wrongturn1]

I had looked at naked ladies on the internet a few times over the past 12 years of marriage. More so in the first 4 years. Thats where her insecurities and her untrusting feelings come from.

Cipher: I can totally relate to this and had the same trouble in my own marriage 8 years ago - my uBPDw still brings this up as if it happened yesterday.  But I do want to offer a slight correction on what you said.  "Thats where her insecurities and her untrusting feelings come from." 

My view is that her insecurities and untrusting feelings result from having BPD, not from your behavior of periodically viewing naked ladies on the internet many years ago.  A mentally healthy wife would have likely been pissed the day she discovered it; then she would forgive and eventually trust you over a reasonable period of time after you asked forgiveness and changed your behavior.  But that's not how it goes with a BPD wife.  Since your wife has BPD, even if you had never seen another naked lady, she would be just as insecure and untrusting of you... .she would just find some other reason to blame her problems on you.