R/S advice, BPD style

[In_n_Out]

I'm sure that if I searched previous posts here, I'd find something very similar with possible suggestions/solutions/reinforcement but I'm going to just go ahead and start a new thread.  I hope that I'm brief by including only the most needed of details.

Nearly 4 yr r/s with dBPDgf (waif type) that went sour when she began to devalue me and then she just walked one day and I find out that she's seeing somebody else (sound familiar anybody?).  That was last July/August.  We had a semi-recycle around Christmas (not intimate but the "I always loved you, always will love you, you are "home" to me, etc" along with her being "torn" between him and me.  An incident happened at her birthday in January and after I sent an invalidating enough text to send her over the edge, she painted me black and we were NC for 30 days.  Just over a week ago, she reached out to a buddy, shoved a note in his hand and asked that he deliver it to me and so no we've seen each other every night (no intimacy) and we laugh, cry, hold hands, bump foreheads (not "uglies" and all the other gushy stuff and yes, I am eating it up alive.  But now this whole "stuck" pattern is gnawing at me.

Some facts:

1. She's never been married, no kids.  She's 43 and can't hold a job (but she's been at the current one for almost a year now).

2. She's in her own rental home (very nice old towne home that I'm amazed she's kept - no doubt with lots of borrowing and trips to the pawn shop).  However, she wants a house that is her "own" via proxy (i.e., marriage).

3. My replacement has said home (and this will sound so bad) but it's not the perfect home for her.  :)oesn't like this and that and the dog he has sheds all over, etc.  Texts yesterday to me "If we are meant to be, could we have a house with a fence and garden and fireplace?".

4. My situation: I went through financial hell after my divorce many years ago, credit is shot but I do have a VA loan in my back pocket.  I could afford a mortgage (the rent on my townhome that I pay now is probably more than some monthly payments I'd have on a house) but I have zero downpayment right now.  My son (14) lives with me and yes, I'd love to have a house some day. I have begun to look into the VA option and I *think* that she's waiting to see how serious that I am about that.  Do I think that if I had a house of my own at this point that she'd leave him for me?  Yeah, I think that she would.  Does that make for a good r/s?  Part of me says that if she loves me, she would love me for me and would want to be with me no matter what.  The other part says that I can't blame her for wanting to be with a "stable" man.  I am fully employed with a great company, with great benefits, and I am on the comeback trail from my own financial woes.

5. She says that him and her were great during the honeymoon period but now they fight all the time.  She says she hardly sees him and I believe that because the Christmas and this recycle we were together every night and on the weekends except for a couple of hours on Saturdays (their time).  I've done the BPD homework assignments and to her (per her) I'm the one that understands her better than anybody ever has and she very much wants to come back to me but she's "torn" because she would let down so many people that are counting on him and her getting married.

So the obvious thing is to get the hell out of there because this is triangulation pure and simple and I could be in this limbo for a long while (until she makes her "choice" but as we all know, when you're on that pedestal, it's like pure heaven so I'm stuck.

How best to get this thing moving along without triggering her abandonment fears that would get me painted black (as much as that would probably be the best thing for me)?  :)o I believe that she really does love me?  Yes, I do.  I see it in her eyes when she looks me in the eyes and tells me how much she does.  Is she "materialistic"?  Yes and no.  She shops goodwill for her clothes and that makes her happy.  She doesn't care to have a fancy car.  She just wants to be married (finally) and have a house that she can call "home" with a husband.

1. Do I tell her that she needs to conclude that before we can proceed and then I go NC with her?  That will trigger abandonment and will surly get me blackballed.  But that would be telling in and of itself I suppose.  

2. Do I just keep playing the triangulation game and just live for each moment that we have hoping that she wraps things up with him?  Yes, there seems to of been some progress there actually.  She makes it appear that she is "close" to getting to the point to where she begins to paint him black and moves along.  We have talked about her leaving him but she's stuck on the "torn" thing and won't commit either way.

3. Do I just start dating others telling her that I'm here for her but if she's "torn" I'm torn as well and if we are meant to be we will be?  That will get me painted black to, I'm sure (as much as she says that I deserve to be with someone that will make me happy - her own way of invalidating her own worth).

Any other suggestions?  Yes, I know the obvious answer here but let's just pretend that I want this to work out with her in the worst way because I honestly believe that it could if she would just get out of the triangulation.  We had a good r/s when we were together (we were actually engaged).  I just didn't know how to communicate/validate her at the time and had to discover that she has BPD on my own post-breakup.  We get along great now (or have during this latest recycle at least).

Thanks in advance.

[In_n_Out]

So just typing that out made me come to some realizations.  I've been listening to her and she has said several times in the past week that things seem differently with us, that I'm more understanding and validating (I am) but that for some reason she wonders what ulterior motive I may have (she giggles at that).  So since this recycle has only been a week, I think that she's waiting to see if this bubble bursts or not before making any decision to throw away something that she may have with this other guy - as much as I know that she knows he really isn't the one for her.  Yes, I am convinced of that.  Unless she scrubs the house before every visit that I make over there, she has no pictures of him, there's no facebook activity between them all the things that she did with me and that you would expect to see from a "happy" couple.

So I think that my best play right now is to continue to be patient, just be a friend for her while letting her know that I do love her and as much as I do hope that we can find a way to each other she has to find it in her heart what it is she wants and that with time, she may realize that this is the "real" me and that she would/could/will be happy with me.  Then hopefully she pulls the trigger and moves on from the other guy.

I'll give this a few weeks because I too am wondering if she doesn't dysregulate and things do blow up and I wind up losing my cool as I had done before.  I hurt her with some things that were said in the past; they weren't nasty but they were invalidating enough that she was hurt by them and I feel that she feels she needs to be convinced that won't start happening again.  If after a few weeks we are still in limbo, I'll start dating others again and let her know that as much as I love her, I see us as "stuck" and that I can't keep putting my life on hold waiting for her to basically "$hit or get off the pot" as they say.

[maxsterling]

My feeling?  She's manipulating you.  I think she is unhappy with her current r/s, and is playing you as a way out without having to make a decision or feel any pain herself.  If you buy a house and ask her to move in, she doesn't have to be alone.  And once she is there, there will be a honeymoon period, and then likely the "same old, same old" will start again.  She's not working on herself.  And while she may "love" you, love means something different to a pwBPD.  There is a "need" component to their love.  She needs you to rescue her from her own pain, and to provide for her what she cannot provide for herself.

While I am not in a triangulation situation, I see some similarities here between what I am dealing with and what you are dealing with.   My GF has searched for her whole life for a place to be.  She does the same thing - wants marriage, a house, and kids.  But she's unable to get that on her own, so she manipulates.  She uses guilt trips, passive aggression, threats of moving, all for that goal.  And at times, I have been the sucker.   She doesn't know how to get her needs met any other way.  Of course, I asked her to move in before I knew anything about BPD, before the first rage.  For a few weeks, she talked about how happy she was, how she loved my house, that she finally felt at home.  A month later, she was in my living room, screaming at me, telling me if I left she would kill herself and I would come home to find her lifeless body and it would be my fault. 

Be careful.  She thinks marriage and a home will "fix" her.  But once she gets that and feels no better, the cycle starts again, and then good luck getting her out of your house.  How many other things has she done in her life that she thought would "fix" her?   How many new boyfriends, new jobs, new places to live?  Those are all attempts at filling that "hole".  My girlfriend has rarely had a job, boyfriend, or place to live last longer than 6 months.  She's had more jobs and more dating partners in the last 5 years than I have had in my whole life.  I'll state again, be careful.

[In_n_Out]

My feeling?  She's manipulating you.  I think she is unhappy with her current r/s, and is playing you as a way out without having to make a decision or feel any pain herself. 

I absolutely agree.  To her, her *only* options are 1) stay with Mr. X and even though she's not really happy with him now, perhaps she could grow to be happy and she knows that he will be asking her to marry him.  This way, she can walk down the aisle with her ailing father like she has always wanted to and prove once and for all to mommy and daddy that she is "marriage material".  That has been a big hang up of hers for a very long time.  Option 2) is go back to the man that she truly does love (me and I do believe this) and see if a) things have changed or b) if the crap just goes back to where it was before.  She is still in the "wait and see" phase on this.  She's leaning 2 but hasn't quite decided yet (more in a bit).

The third option that she just can't fathom though I've suggested it numerous times is 3) take some time for herself to become self-sustaining and then figure out what she wants.  But we all know BPD's and the abandoment/isolation feelings.  Also, that biological clock is ticking big time.  Daddy is in poor health and though I think she realizes this ship won't sail for her, she is still hoping that she can have a kid (she's 43).  Mr. X is open to the idea of kids, I am not (I have two boys from a previous marriage).

She's not working on herself.

Actually, she is.  I won't say that this is the *only* reason why I'm even entertaining these thoughts but for the first time since 2005, she has returned to therapy and has begun DBT training.  She can lose focus on things (especially when a guy is involved, and that's how/why she dropped out before) but at the moment at least, she is very committed to finally getting a grasp on what she says of herself "I can be a big pain in the a$$".  I am committed to seeing that she sticks with it for as long as I'm in the picture.  No, I can't fix her but I can help keep her motivated to want to get herself fixed by a professional.

So this morning I sent her some texts.  I said that I believe that we both have the same agenda as to "us" and that is that we both want to see if after spending a good deal of time together, platonically, things have truly changed or if the bubble will burst.  (By the way, since I break up, I discovered and confronted her with "BPD" of which I had never heard of before and I have been doing lots of homework on it.  I think I mentioned in the intial post but my validation of her emotions has really done wonders for how we now communicate).  I also said that as much as I love her and am not actively seeking to date others, I am passively keeping those options open (that puts a little pressure on her but isn't an ultimatum). She replied "please don't find somebody else". I replied that "If I was *forced* to find somebody else, that I would only be settling for less than what I want".  Now that is true in the here and now for it is her that I want (right now) but I may find someone and realize that I got more than I ever wanted... . you never know.  She doesn't need to know that though.

We had a number of other very pleasant text exchanges and I had a funny story that really amused her.  She said "I have to see you tonight!  Can we meet at (place)?" and that she loves me, "with all of my heart".

So as I mentioned, I'll keep working on my communication/validation skills with a BPD and as long as she stays committed to DBT's and therapy, I will stay in this "wait and see" period for a little while longer.  I feel her coming around.  If however after a few weeks of this nothing is changing and I'm still the "stand by guy", then I'm walking and I will be sad but content that I gave it my best college try.  She just needs to be certain (in her mind) that things won't go back to where they once were and frankly, I need convincing of that as well.

[In_n_Out]

Be careful.  She thinks marriage and a home will "fix" her.  But once she gets that and feels no better, the cycle starts again, and then good luck getting her out of your house.  How many other things has she done in her life that she thought would "fix" her?   How many new boyfriends, new jobs, new places to live?  Those are all attempts at filling that "hole".  My girlfriend has rarely had a job, boyfriend, or place to live last longer than 6 months.  She's had more jobs and more dating partners in the last 5 years than I have had in my whole life.  I'll state again, be careful.

And that is sage advice because mine too has been through a number of r/s (I was with her for 4 years and she's been with my replacement for 6 months but before me, it was guy after guy) and she's had more jobs than I can count since I've known her.  So what you say is a very good point and if it does come down to her staying with "Mr. X", then that could be a parting shot... . how many changes have you made trying to "fix" you guy and job wise and how has that been working for you?

Also, it appears that by setting my own personal boundaries and letting her know that I have done so and what they are has given me some respect.  I was nervous texting that, not wanting to invalidate anything or give her the fear of abandonment feeling but her text responses have been very positive to that.  My boundaries are that I will not do the silent treatment again that this is a time where I need to spend time with her to determine if this bubble will in fact burst or not; the same thing that she is wondering.  And that I also respect that she is in another r/s at the moment and as much as it tears me up to think that she's spending time with him (very little as it may be) and me as well, that if a dating opportunity comes up for me while we are in this "holding pattern" and I feel that it would be a good fit for me, I will go out on date(s).  Again, adds some pressure to her to get off the pot so to speak.

[maxsterling]

Glad to hear she is doing the DBT.  That is a great start, and hopefully she sticks with it.

When I said "not working on herself" I think one has to look not just at the action but the motivation.  For example, my girlfriend has done all kinds of things in the past year - therapies, classes, jobs - all at an attempt to feel better.  But after a few weeks at each of them, she quits and claims something else is what she needs to do.  As I get to know her better, it seems her whole life has been the same way.

Is she working on herself?  In my opinion, NO.  She's still looking for something external to fix her.  Thankfully, its not drugs anymore, but I think the thought process is the same.  Everything she does to work on herself has other goals than to simply be a better person.  Sure, she wants to be a better person and be happy, but I don't see her doing the work specifically for that goal.  Instead, she does the work 1) so I won't leave her 2) so that I will have a child with her 3) so she has something to do. 

Here's an example.  My GF never cleans, and never exercises.  She will make remarks about how she should do both of those things to feel better, but just can't find the motivation.  Then she tells me I should give her chores and force her to go on walks with me.  My issue - if I give her chores, she won't do them simply because they need to get done and accomplishing that will make her feel good about herself, instead she will do them to make me happy.  That's not working on herself.  Same goes with exercise.  If she truly was working on herself, she'd find the motivation to do it on her own.  If she requires me, then she is doing it for me. If and when I see her do things without my prompt and where it looks like she would do them whether I was with her or not, then I feel more confident in moving forward in the r/s. 

If your ex was truly working on herself, she would recognize the current r/s is not what she wants, break it off, and work on herself with no guarantee you will take her back.  My gut says she may be just doing what it takes to get what she wants from you or someone else:  A house and a child.

[In_n_Out]

Thanks again for your input and again, very sage advice.

We spoke on the phone during her lunch break.  She was very happy and upbeat so I took the *opportunity* to talk to her about some things that we've said her.  I suggested that I can see her thinking that her choices are me or him in black and white only but that there is a third choice and we have talked about it before but that is the choice to work on truly becoming self-sustaining without relying on a man to take care of her.  We are going to address that some more tonight when we meet.

You are correct again; there are greater steps that she could take to work on herself, just as I have lots of room for improvement as well (working on my credit history, others).  I am proud of her for going back to therapy and I am rewarding of that to her.  I let her know that I am so happy that she has made that decision for herself.  Yes, I agree about her leaving this guy if she really was to work on herself.  Us rational people would say that.  I'm hoping that she realizes that and quickly because I am going to have a very short leash (two weeks tops) for her to make that decision.  I won't give her an ultimatum and I am hoping that she makes that decision on her own.  IF she does make that decision, then her and I can discuss whether we move back to a dating situation or if we just remain as friends (which you and I know, we can't be just friends).  If we do begin dating again, her and I will have this house talk.  If it becomes a "you need to get a house or I begin to dysregulate" type of situation, then I walk.  I have to set some serious personal boundaries with myself *should* we get to the point to where we start to talk about dating again.  I'm not ready to throw in the towel right now however, not close yet.  A couple of more weeks and we see what her play is.  If we're still in this limbo stage, then I tell her that she needs to go be a gf to her bf and stop using me as a distraction.

[cosmonaut]

I feel you, In_n_Out, about wanting to reconnect.  I know how good it feels to dream about our BPDex reuniting with us, except this time things are different - they are facing their disorder, making progress, and things are relatively good.  I am struggeling with those same emotions and desires. 

I can't add much except to say, please don't buy a house just to make your ex happy.  Please wait until you are financially ready for doing that and if your relationship with your ex has proven stable.  If she loves *you*, she will be willing to wait for that.

Good luck, man.  I know you love her and want to be with her.

[In_n_Out]

Well good call my friend; it didn't take long for her true colors to show themselves yet again.  After a day of "love, love, love" and alluding to hope for the future and "continuing to work on myself" we meet and I instantly could tell that something was off kilter.  After pretending that everything was ok, I finally asked her what was going on and she said "go get your workout in, I know that you want to do that.  I have to go."  Sad look in her eyes and I said "you really insisted on seeing me today after work first and now you're going to go be with him?"  I mean really, the nerve.  That led to me telling her that she needs to go be a gf to her bf and to stop (emotionally) cheating on him while misleading me. She called bawling saying that she's sorry that she's been selfish and I just unleashed.

So... . you will find me back at the "Leaving" board while I mend the broken heart yet once again.  This time I have to really buckle down and block, block, block.

And to anyone reading stuck in a r/s with someone with BPD... . freakin' get out while you can if you can.  :)o NOT trust a thing that they say.  Judge them by their actions and you will see the true person that they are.  Maybe they can't help it and you can pity them all that you want in your mind, but don't cave in to their advances and promises and manipulations.

[cosmonaut]

Oh, man.  I'm sorry, In_n_Out.  You doing ok?

That really is some world class manipulation.  Unbelievable.  I'm so sorry she burnt you again.  She's being cruel and heartless.  Being in love with a pwBPD is a special type of hell, isn't it?

Hang in there, man.  I'm glad you stood up for yourself.  I wouldn't give her a third chance.  I'm sorry, man.

[In_n_Out]

Thanks man.  No, it's going to hurt really bad because she had me really sucked in this time.  I fell for it hook, line and sinker.  But I'll get over it.  I've been hitting the gym like a madman since the last time that this happened and I will continue to do so.  It will suck eggs for a while and there will be some nights that I'm a bawling mess I'm sure but right now I am so utterly angry and disappointed and I hope that I keep that with me long enough to get over the heartache.  It's "Go straight to jail.  Don't pass GO and don't collect $200".  Just GO!

[In_n_Out]

So she just stopped by.  Says that she hasn't read any of my texts because she was afraid that I was mean in them.  She said that she broke up with my replacement and that it was something that she needed to build up the courage to do.  She says that she wants time alone and that she doesn't know right now if its me or him or somebody else but she needs to work on herself before she could resume something else.  She admitted that she found him as a means to try and get over me and that it was for the wrong reasons and that it was never meant to be.  Basically all the stuff she knows that I'd want to hear (except saying that she wants to come back to me). She asked if we could still go visit my mom on Sunday and I told her the truth, I already have other plans.  That upset her meaning that she started sobbing and said that she's no good for anybody and that she's broken his heart and mine and she's all messed up.  I wished her good luck and said that I hope that she is being true to herself and her word and is honestly going to concentrate on just herself right now.

We all know though that IF (big if) she did break up with him, she'll be doing the "happy dance" with him and he'll probably find these message boards eventually wondering what the hell shook up his world.  He's probably a nice guy so we can all welcome him to the group once he does start his investigation and realize what he had on his hands.

As for me, I'm going to continue to workout and work on repairing my credit and trying to save up some money so that I can get a house for me and my 14 yr old before he leaves the nest.  I don't know what I will do when (I say when, not if) she comes around again.  I know what the *smart* me should do but we all know how easy it is to get sucked in.  Hell, she already did it - an hour ago I was fuming mad at her and now I'm sad to see her drive off.  F' me!

[cosmonaut]

Wow.  It's incredible the speed with which a pwBPD can change their feelings, isn't it?  I do feel considerable empathy for those that suffer with this disorder - it must feel so chaotic to have these constant fluxes of emotion.  I think your ex is probably telling you the truth when she says that she knows she's breaking everyone's heart and she's no good for anyone.  I think some (not all) pwBPD really are aware that their behavior is hurting the people closest to them - people that they may even sincerely love.  I'm fairly certain that's the case with my ex.  She knows she's hurting me and I think she even feels true remorse.  She just doesn't know how else to deal with the raging storm of emotions she's feeling.  She doesn't have any better coping mechanisms.  I think it is very positive that your ex can see this about herself too.  The next step is to see if she will actually do something about it.  Obviously, any future of your relationship will depend on the outcome of that.

I'm really sorry you're being put through the emotional wringer.  It's awful to endure these push/pull shenanigans.  I think you have a great plan.  Continue to work on yourself.  Hit the gym.  Spend time with your son.  Save for the future.  Wait and see about the ex.  Don't put your life on hold for her or expect anything to change.  If she does end up getting serious about getting better and starts making solid progress, then you can think about resuming a relationship.  That's very much what I am leaning towards as well.  Wait and see.

[In_n_Out]

Here's what I know about my ex at least: 

1. She will wear her emotions on her sleeve and she will tell you what they are.  I completely believe her when she says that she loves me and misses this and that.  It may be "love" in a way that only she can relate to but I believe that is what she feels. But while she may (and will) tell you what her emotions are, what she does will most likely be a completely different thing. 

2. She will distort, twist, invent "facts" to match her recollection of events (classic BPD) and you will never convince her that it did or didn't happen any other way.  This will always include variations that make her look to be the "good guy" or to be "normal".  She is in a perpetual story telling mode to try and convince herself and everyone around her that she is "normal" and that she is the victim.  Again, classic BPD.

#2 collides with #1 when her emotions become built around fabrications or exaggerations.  An example "I miss and loved our walks, holding hands and skipping stones".  The truths: She feels loved during that event and she does miss it.  The exaggeration: it could be with anybody, not just me.

[maxsterling]

Wow, sorry that happened.  But I guess better to happen now than a few months from now.  I think your last post nailed it, at least the way I have seen it.  I think the pwBPD is always looking for something to fill that void where non-BPD people keep their identity and sense of self.  I know who I am and what I like, and how to take care of myself when things feel off.  Sure, I'm not perfect, but I see a marked difference between myself and my BPDgf.  She hates being alone and can't understand how I can be comfortable being alone or doing things by myself.  She has to have something or somebody, or she is bored or lonely.  If I am bored, I search for things I can do to entertain myself.  If she is bored, she seeks out people that can entertain her.  It sounds like your ex is cut from the same cloth, and what you said is probably true - that in the end it really doesn't matter who or what, she just wants someone or something to keep her from being alone with herself.  She may rather have you than this other guy, but she'd rather have this other guy than nothing.  But, she'd also rather be married with a house than not married and in an apartment.  So in that sense, she may rather have him than you.  It's the constant need of others to fill that void that they cannot fill themselves. 

If there is good news, it sounds like she is a little bit awakened to her role in her own issues and the need to work on herself.  At times, my GF definitely recognizes her role and makes statements admitting to this.  But I wonder how much is just lip service?  With all the therapy she has had her whole life, my guess is that this is not the first time she is coming to this understanding.  And probably the same for your ex.  She may have known for years that her failed relationships are in part due to her needing to feel secure with herself, and tried and tried to fix that.  It's just in the long run, she is going to do what relieves her emotional distress in the short term, because finding one's identity is very hard work.

[In_n_Out]

My ex is a very self-aware BPD.  She's had two T's tell her that she has obvious BPD traits but I don't know that it's been a full blown diagnosis.  At any rate, she knows that it's been a life filled with failed r/s attempts and that she basis *everything* on these r/s's.  She dropped out of college to move to a different town following a guy, leaves jobs because of guys.  It's like that is the bane of her existence; having a guy that she can love and that loves her (that she doesn't have *any* issues with whatsoever - the perfect "model".  I honestly feel that she just wants to love and be loved but can't handle the conflict and with her extreme emotions that just won't be.

She is very sensitive to everything; light, sounds, temperature.  She is easily stressed and cannot multi-task at all.  She is wonderful with people though.  We were walking in the park once and she saw a teenage girl sitting on a bench that is upset.  It wasn't obvious to me that she was and you and me and everyone else would just walk by minding our own business. My ex however stops and says "this isn't me hugging you, it's God using me to give you strength" and she will hug this girl and they both will cry and then by the time she is done, the girl on the bench smiles at her and says "thank you soo much!" and my ex will pull on that for days or weeks about how she felt that bond and how much she gets from feeling other peoples emotions.  And that's a key- she's separating from herself to feel other people's emotions to mask her own hurt/shame/whatever.

I'm going to see my ex briefly today after work.  I'm in the FOG big time and I needed to just see her.  I sent a text saying what I wrote above, about how it was the idea of me that she loved and not necessarily *me*.  She replied "No In-N-Out. The <something that she shared> was for you, because I pictured you.  You for you.  *YOU*.  I love you.  :)espite and because of everything we have been through.  I don't care if you don't believe me".  She follows that up with "Actually, that's not true.  I do care what others think... . too much.  And that is part of what I have to work on. Not needing so much validation from others or basing my sense of worth on what others think of me.  I love you.  I've gotta love myself.  That's the biggest thing".

So she is very aware.  Now it could be asked if she uses that awareness to manipulate others?  Yes, no, maybe?  Is she really a wonderful person trapped with a mind that will split when there is a conflict and will dysregulate and look to cause conflict so that she can say "see, I knew it.  He's not the one either... . push away".

I don't know.  She's insisting on seeing my mother (grave site) on Sunday and says that she will go with or without me because she feels that it was my mom that brought us back together and she wants to thank her and honor her.  She never met my mother but she's bonded with her.  That's the kind of stuff that makes it so hard to just walk away.  I wish that I could just walk away - get away fast and not deal with this.  I just want to love the woman and not have to analyze and evaluate and decipher what the hell she means or why she's doing or saying something.  But it would never be just that easy.  Shouldn't a happy r/s be easier than that?

[maxsterling]

Thanks, In-n-Out for posting this thread and sharing.  many of the topics here have been quite helpful to me in thinking about my own r/s and about the dynamics of the FOG.  Sometimes reading these boards it sounds like the pwBPD are typically out of control, ungrateful, and unaware.  But like you, I'm held in this undecided phase because I'm dealing with someone who does at times show gratitude and awareness.  It really sounds like your ex has some grasp of the BPD dynamic, and I feel hope for her.  But I also see that is a big part of your FOG.

My situation is so similar in many ways.  She knows she has BPD.  She seeks therapy.  She knows she has made bad decisions and hurt others.  At times she is very empathetic towards others.  I see positive changes in her.  I question whether she loves me or needs me, and I do recognize that she sees something different in me than she did in exes.  She tells me that I am exactly the type of man she always wanted, even as far back as high school.   She also tells me she wants to be part of my family because they are good and supportive.

But, when I think about it, I know I love her, and want the best for her.  But she is definitely NOT the type of person I always wanted.  And if I am what she always wanted, then why was she always choosing the opposite before she met me?  Does that mean I am really not what she wants, just what she wants right now?  And despite her struggles to be a better person, my basic relationship needs aren't being met.  Just like you said, a happy r/s should be easier than this.  I still feel like what I want from life and a r/s is dependent on her moods.  My friend is having a birthday party tonight, whether I go or not will depend on my GF's mood.  Same goes with family visits, sexual interactions, what we do over the weekend, what *I* can get done over the weekend, whether I see my friends... .   She's a great person inside, but very damaged.  And unless things change within her, she will always be needy and looking for my shoulder to prop her up. 

[In_n_Out]

Wow, yeah.  That reads so similar.  I bet that we could share a lot of stories over a *lot* of beers together. 

I'm in a parking lot, waiting for her to finish her lab tests at a clinic (she has a UTI) and she's also seeing if she can get insurance coverage for the therapist.  I asked to meet her because I after the drama of last night, I just needed another hug; another "fix", another "hit" I guess.  I was just thinking that no matter how disappointed in her I get, how angry, sad, frustrated... . I seem to quickly forget that when she gives me a hug, pulls back and says "I love you" with tears in her eyes.  Oh how I wish I could just walk away and move on... . it would be so much easier in the long run I know. 

I don't know what's going to happen.  She doesn't know what's going to happen.  Actually, I think I know what she would like to have happen but she just can't make it happen.  She'd love me and him and everyone else to just go away without her feeling the sense that she *has* to have one (or more) of us in order for her to survive.   For the past number of years, when she's "hit bottom" and is in despair, she has often said that she needs to "love herself" before she can love another.  That's a common phrase and she's picked up on it perhaps as a "catch phrase" but there is no doubt some truth in there.  How to get her to love herself though is still beyond me at this point.  She can be so loving and caring with others but so damaging to herself (not meaning cutting incidents, but she says that she has had self-injury incidents many years ago). 

We can have such fun together.  Three days ago, I was chasing her up and down the aisles in Walmart... . running and giggling at one another like HS kids (and I turn 50 this year).  We can get in to laughing "fits" that last longer than they should because it just gets to the point of us being silly.  Conversely, we can also go weeks without laughing at all with lots of crying, her walking out of the house pouting and her pulling away.  Now she throws in the silent treatment; or has, but that was when she was seeing somebody else (i.e., until last night - supposedly breaking up with this other guy but I don't buy it). 

I'm rambling trying to pass time.  Tears well up and I fight to hold them back but they will release when I see her.  I've done the "tough guy" act and lately I've been a crying mess.  She gravitates much more towards the crying mess.  Maybe I just need to toughen up, bite the bullet and walk away.  Raise your hands if you can relate to that being easier said than done... . yeah, I'm not alone there am I?

[In_n_Out]

Well we did the long, tearful goodbye yet again just a bit ago.  She showed up and had roses for my moms grave.  She thought that we could go today, now instead of Sunday so that I could enjoy my weekend (  ).  I said no, I was much too tired (I am, I awake at 3 a.m. every morning from having dreams of her) and that I didn't want to take up too much of her time, that I just needed a hug.  It turned out to be the farewell routine that we've done 3 or 4 times now.

Similar to the last times; she needs to work on her before she can be with anybody but she loves me very much.  Of course last time she never stopped seeing my replacement and I suspect it will be the same here.  She's still holding out hope that she can somehow get along with the guy well enough to be his wife and live in his piece of crap house that she says she doesn't like.  God.  I would hope though that she has enough personal integrity to be honest with herself and that she really did break up with him and is putting "guys" on hold in order to heal.  Not likely.  She did say that she's very scared though of being alone that she's never done it before.  

I suspect that unless I stop it for real this time, we'll go through another 30 day period of NC and then either her or I will reach out and we'll go through this whirlwind 5 days or so of complete bliss only to get split from again because she needs to "learn to love herself first".  Is it wrong for me to hold on to hope that she really has finally bottomed out and will do that?  Well, I do.  Maybe she has and will.  I may never know.  Likely though, I will snoop around enough to know that she hasn't.  Actually, too late, I already started.  She's still friends with him on facebook though she hasn't been on it in a couple of days.  When her and I split for real the first time, I was immediately defriended (and eventually blocked) on facebook.  

So, I'll linger around and will post random thoughts perhaps at times and then in x number of days, probably start another post about how to interpret this or that about her.  She said it and I should listen to her but she said to keep improving myself, that she's so proud of me and to what I need to do to make myself happy.  There was just no convincing that what I feel at this moment is that being with her is what would make me the happiest.  Perhaps she's wiser than me though.

[maxsterling]

If you can - I think the best advice would be to say, "Go, work on yourself.  Contact me when you feel things are right."  Then, wait without your fingers crossed.  If she contacts you and you are still single, great.  Unfortunately, that's a tough thing to do.  Honestly, I think that is what my girlfriend needs to do.  And at times before she met me, she said that is what she tried to do - be by herself, concentrate on herself, not date anyone.  But that never lasted more than a few weeks.  And I think if she truly cared about me, she would see that she needs to work on herself, would break it off, work on herself, and then hope I am still single when she was more stable.  She knows it's not fair for me to be dealing with all her issues.  She's really never been stable enough to have a relationship - I'm sure she has hurt many people on the way.

I really hope your ex figures herself out - for her sake, and for whomever she eventually winds up with.  She's telling you she needs to work on herself - take that as a warning from her.  I've hear that from women before, too, and rarely heeded the warning.  And every time I wound up hurt.

[In_n_Out]

Thanks again for the reply.  You're right, I wish that I could trust that she would just work on herself and not go looking for another guy because she gets scared and alone.  I'd be happy to let her do that.  In fact, I was prepared to do that starting tonight when (queue cheesy 'chick flick' music in the background)... .

So I came home, very blue and sad and figured I better get my a$$ to the gym.  Nothing like being in a near empty gym alone on a Friday night, right?  So I'm just doing some cardio, listening to music that I shouldn't be listening to and I keep looking out the big windows hoping to see her car pull up as it had so many times before but it wasn't to be.  I finished up the cardio and had an overwhelming urge to go to the coffee shop on the square where we had met most every night of the past week.  It's her favorite coffee shop and she hopes to get the courage to frame some of her pictures and display them there.  I go up to the counter to order and the femaile barista who works there every night asks how things are going.  "ugh.  So-so I guess".  She then asks where my other half is.  "Not my other half any longer".  That leads to a conversation; you guys looked really happy the other night and if it's meant to be, etc. 

So I'm sitting at the table that we always sat at (yes, I'm a glutton for punishment it appears) and I'm fighting the urge to text her. I'm really hoping that she walks in the door.  She doesn't and I say screw it.  So I send a text and say that the coffee shop lady is asking where she is.  No reply.  Great, I bet I'm blocked on facebook, texts, phone.  Painted black or just black listed.  But then, my phone beeps and it's her. "Are you still there?".  Yes.  "Wait".  I have been.

She pulls up and it's a bit awkward but we hug and I get the usual "we can't keep doing this!" business.  (any of you guys throwing up in your mouths yet?  ).  So we drink our coffee and walk the square and listen to some live music and jump on the piano that is laying on the sidewalk outside the toy store (as in the movie "Big" and she says "this is all that I wanted a couple of years ago from you, a little more of this".  I walk her to her car and she says that she needs space and I tell her I'm sorry to reach out and yes, I'll give you space but I can't do the silent treatment stuff; not after the wonderful week that we just had.  She says fine, but no dozens of texts.  Ok, guilty.  I'll chill on the texting.  She says "journal it if you must document stuff and ... . I swear that I heard this... . she says "and we'll have an open book wedding so that people can read it".  Maybe my mind played tricks on me though.

So a hug goodnight and I drive home much happier than I came there being as.  Now a quick silly something but when I moved in to my townhome, she bought me a housewarming gift- a fern.  I baby that thing.  Well, it isn't doing so good.  I left it out one night during a freeze that I didn't know was going to hit and the fern isn't doing so good.  So I pull in to my driveway and the fern is green and lush and bushy and I'm like "what the f***?"  It then dawns on me, it's a new fern.  Big smile and I call her to thank her but it goes straight to voicemail.  On the fern is a note; "I love you (heart) - Always".  Jeezuz! 

So the phone rings and she's laughing and she says that she went to the grocery store to buy some comfort food (icecream) and that she was going to have a night at home watching a chick flick eating ice cream.  While at the grocery store though, she sees all these ferns that they have and she can't help herself so she buys one.  She said that she drove to my house but my car was gone.  "$hit!" she says.  He's out with friends.  "Wait!, the gym".  So she drove by the gym but I wasn't there either.  She said that her phone as almost dead and so she had it off but she turns it on at 8:00 and at 8:01 my text comes through talking about the coffee shop lady.

We laughed about it on the phone and ended the conversation with me wishing her a fun Saturday with her friends and that I'd still like to go visit my mom Sunday.  She said that she would think about that and let me know.  I'll see her Sunday.

So maxsterling your post is a good bit of advice yet again.  I'll chill on the texting, let her miss me a little bit and just keep doing what I've been doing.  A bit of persistence and then who the hell knows. 

Hopefully this mushy story didn't bore you all to death but instead gives some hope to those in similar positions.  She can't walk away completely yet if I try and get too close, she pushes away.  Lesson learned.  Keep my distance but don't fade away entirely.  Maybe I'll play my cards just right and then who hell knows, right?

[cosmonaut]

This is all a rather fascinating story, In_n_Out.  I wish you the best.  I don't have any advice other than to be careful and watch out for yourself.  Don't trust too easily or forgive too freely.  I know how easily I might get sucked back into a bad relationship.  I imagine you are the same - you seem to realize that.  Anyway, keep posting.  I really do hope the best for you.  Just be careful.

[In_n_Out]

Thanks Cosmo, I appreciate that.  She sent texts at 3 a.m. saying that she had been up all night, ate a pint of icecream, watching chick flicks and with her head reeling about her and me.  I thanked her for showing me things that I had missed during our r/s, how to get out and enjoy things.  Last night was an example.  It was fun to get out and enjoy the out of doors activities.  We didn't do a lot of that.  I told her that 'whomever' I wind up with, I want to get out more and enjoy things because we didn't do enough of that.  :)uring our r/s, I had gotten out of shape BIG time.  Very fat.  I couldn't stand for long periods of time without my back killing me (weak core).  I've been a bodybuilder all of my life and with her, I stopped working out because she doesn't go to the gym (she doesn't eat and so she's thin; not sickly thin but not eating is her weight control - not healthy).  Since the breakup, I'm up at 4:30 a.m. doing an hour of cardio before work and then 2 hours in the gym later in the evening.  I've lost over 6" in my waist.  I'm active and healthy again. It's been a lot of hard work.  Whomever I wind up with needs to understand that I enjoy doing this conditioning and that is me.  My ex would say "you should go to the gym more often" as she was passing me another plate of spaghetti in between watching DVD's.  Never again.  Her seeing what I have achieved and then going to the town square on a Friday night to where as before I wouldn't have before I think has her mind "reeling".  

[In_n_Out]

Well for those following this saga, we had another wonderful weekend together.  No, not "intimate" but just spending a lot of time together and really enjoying it.  Yesterday was one of the best days that we've ever had together.  She came over and I made her breakfast.  At this point, the first "test" of the day came up.  I have a female friend that I've known for years.  My ex knows of her but never has met her.  Because of the "walking on eggshells" syndrome, I basically had stopped communicating with this friend because I knew that it would freak my ex out (insecurity, BPD jealousy).  We have since reconnected.  Well, we had dinner planned for a week and I had let my ex know about it.  Over breakfast, my ex began to lay out plans for the day and I let her know that I'm free until dinner at 5:30.  Her mood changed instantly.  She got up and said that she had lost her appetite and began to put her coat on.  She said "I know that I'm sounding like a hypocrite but that just hurts me".  I validated those feelings but she was still withdrawn and about to walk out.  I felt my frustration level rise.  She said what she always says "and now you're getting defensive".  I smirked.  "And that smirk".  This was a real test.  I approached her but she pulled back.  I persisted and put my arms on hers (gently) and she stopped.  I then pulled her close to me and hugged her and asked her to please sit down.  I told her again that it's obvious that this has her upset however, I explained, that this friend is just a friend and has only ever been a friend to me.  That I noticed that she has several male friends on her facebook.  As a for instance, if one of them came to town and called her up and said "let's catch up", I would... . because I TRUST her, LOVE her and I am SECURE in myself, say "honey, go have a wonderful time catching up with your friend over lunch or dinner".  She said "you have a good point".

So we hugged again and got through breakfast.  We then did something that may wind up hurting me but we drove to a neighborhood where we had once went house shopping.  It was her idea and so we drove the neighborhood picking out houses that we liked, pretending that we were house shopping again.  She said "For today, I just want to pretend that everything is ok again" and I went along with it.  We had a good time.  Took pictures of houses and actually stopped in and talked to someone at one of the model homes.

Afterwards, she asked if we could go visit my moms grave.  Perhaps I mentioned up thread that what got us talking again was a handwritten letter that said that she had gone to my moms grave and wept and had a "talk" with her.  At that point, the sun came out and shone upon the grave marker.  My ex captured the moment on her cell phone camera and then later presented a picture to me of it.  She had it put in a nice frame and I cried with such emotion at the thought of that gift.  Well this day she wanted to go out and say "thanks" to my mom for pulling us back together (talking) again and to pay her respects.  She had purchased a small rose plant/bush and we planted it at the head of my moms grave marker.  We cried and I talked about my mom (she had never met her) and of the similarities between the two of them.

I went out to dinner and my friend understood (somewhat) when I said that I'm sorry for being so rude, but please let me send out a quick text.  I sent a short text to my ex and said that we had a nice, simple dinner and were chatting for a bit and that I would be heading out shortly.  She replied "have a wonderful dinner, I love you".  After I left, I sent a text and asked if I could call her.  I wanted to gauge her emotional level.  She replied "no".  Oh crap I thought, he we go.  Her next text read "a hug on my doorstep would be nice though".  I smiled and stopped by on my way home and we hugged and since I had a cheesecake with me from dinner, I asked if she would like to share a piece of it.  We did and while sitting on my old sofa where I sat and ate dinner so many times, she did what she used to do so often; she straddled me (clothed you dirty minds! ) and hugged me.  I thanked her and we parted for the night.

The final "test" came during texting while saying goodnight.  One of the sticking points for us is that her family and friends have me painted black because my ex has spoken so often about "all the hurtful things that I have said".  I suggested that perhaps she could confide in her one new close friend because surly she doesn't know the "hurt" yet.  "I have and she knows that I love you but she said that I have been hurt and it would probably be best to just move on."  That stuck like a knife in my chest.  I said some invalidating things because I was pretty upset.  I said that I feel like my side of the story hasn't been properly told; all the wonderful times that we did have, things that were said and done out of love yet all that her friends and family have heard are that we had arguments and she was hurt and that was preventing her from wanting to move forward with reconciliation because she would look two-faced in their eyes; "oh, he's manipulated you in to saying that he was really a good guy to you after all". 

She replied "please, stop.  Don't ruin the wonderful day that we had.  Just sleep.  I know that I love you and that's all that I know right now".  I turned off my phone and went to bed upset.

This morning, I called and got her voicemail.  I said that I don't want her to say or feel that I'm blaming her for her friends and family not understanding the real me.  Just that it hurts me to know that they have only a part of the full picture and that is a big stumbling block for us right now".  An hour went by and I figured that she had been invalidated to the point of withdrawing again but my phone rang a bit ago and she began to sing "sunshine, you are my sunshine".  I smiled and she said "I'm in the bathroom at work, I just wanted to sing that to you and tell you that I love you".  WOW, I went from doom and gloom to instant happiness.  Are we making a breakthrough?  I don't know.  Will I just get my heart stomped on again?  Probably - especially if she recycles with my replacement I will for sure.  All I know is that I'm so thoroughly enjoying the "here and the now" and communicating with my ex like never before and more importantly - she is responding in such a different way than ever before.

[maxsterling]

Wow - great!  I'm proud of the way you handled yourself!

[In_n_Out]

I'm sort of blogging now, I hope that you all don't mind.   

So she texts me earlier that she's having a horrible day at work.  She says that for the year that she's almost been there, her boss is (this and that) and that she doesn't know how much more she can take.  Same stuff that she did throughout the r/s.  Now perhaps though there is extra motivation because my replacement is the son of one of her co-workers and the entire office practically had them married off so I would imagine that *if* she did break up with the guy, there's quite a bit of tension in that office.  She mentioned nothing about tension between her and her possible future mother-in-law, just problems with the boss.  So I'm not entirely convinced that her r/s with him is over (well duh, right?). 

So we get to our respective homes at about the same time and I had a doozy of a day myself.  I didn't sleep again last night and I'm exhausted.  However, she throws out that line and I go chasing it.  Nobody else here does that though, right?  So she says that she's going for a walk around the square.  I say "if you want some company, all that you have to do is ask".  She does and I'm there in 10 minutes flat.   

So we walk the square and then over to the university where we met for our 2nd date.  It is right around the corner from the house that we shared and so it's full of memories.  The church that we were to be married in is on campus; she had it rented and everything before she started to devalue me.  Anyways, she's getting a bit mushy and would brush my hand and then pull it away if I reached for it.  Damn kids games.  I'm going on 50, ya know?  So I start thinking, "we can play this game".  No more flirting during the walk and I start speaking a little bit of a future that doesn't include her in it.  She's picking up on the hints and getting a bit sad but she plays it off.  We go to the water fountain where on our 2nd date she played up this routine that I'm sure that she'd performed several times before for other guys... . she takes off her shoes and "pretends" that she is being very taboo and gets in the fountain.  On that date, wanting to get lucky (heh!) I stupidly played along while she snapping pictures.  One of those pics was my damn wallpaper for years.  So anyways, I'm wanting to play up the "not in my future sadness" routine myself, I get "taboo" and take off my shoes and she's like "WOW, you're not!"  Sure as $hit I do and I'm in this damn fountain acting a fool.  She's almost in tears laughing saying "if only you had done more of this when we were together!".  Yeah, well, tough. 

So we wrap that exercise up and I walk to the corner and say "this is where you go that way (her house) and I go this way (my car)".  She has a sad look in her face.  She asks if we'll always be "friends".  "I don't know.  I honestly can't say.  I do know that I enjoy the here and the now and not looking back in to the past nor sweating over the future like we/you always did".  I walked to my car and thought about it and said 'what the heck', I'll stop in and talk to the coffee shop chick (who is probably half my age and has freakin' rivets stapled to her collar bone but she's cute in a very freakish way).  We have a chat and I send a text to the ex "having a ham sandwich at the coffee shop.  Hope that you make yourself a wonderful dinner.  My phone is about to die so I'll say goodnight now.  Hope your day is better tomorrow!" and that's it.  She's texting like crazy and I just powered down my phone.

Now the fun will begin.  I fully expect a knock on my door at any moment: "I was worried about you!  You never not answer your phone for me!".  Well, the times, they are a changin'!  Yes folks, I finally said enough of the childish middle school games of "you can't date me, you can't kiss me!" and am ready to start pulling away.  I fully expect she'll either freak out (feeling abandoned) and run or perhaps she'll do what any other *normal* woman would do and start to pursue.  We will see.  The DRAMA continues! 

[In_n_Out]

Well we were together again after work.  Mowed her (my old) lawn for the first time this season.  I always enjoyed doing that.  She was very loving saying how she wishes we could just be "home" again (together) but that the old pain still hurts. 

She admitted that my replacement is contacting her and trying to patch things up.  I asked if she's responding.  "Yes".  Of course she is.  Do they have plans to go out yet? "No". 

I got in the mail my latest read on BPD; "Loving Someone with BPD" by Dr. Manning.  I've read the first couple of chapters and like what I'm reading thus far.  I shared some of it with my ex before she said "no more, not right now". 

I came home and we texted and she was very uplifted and happy in the texts saying that this is the happiest that anybody has made her in a very long time.  I had seen my therapist today and we talked about my codependency and so I talked to the ex a little bit about that.  That the addiction to her stems from the same part of the brain that deals with other addictions and that she is my "heroin" and even though I know that it will kill me, I can't stop taking it.  I said that I know that she will wind up breaking my heart again but I'm enjoying the moment for what it is right now.  She said that she doesn't want to be my "heroin" and please work on the codependency because she "has a history of that".

So, I guess I do need some advice again.  Just keep doing what I'm doing and hope that she tells the replacement to go away or just know that she is going to recycle with him and when she does, I will need to go away for good finally?

She says that she has lots of pressure on her with this replacement guy.  As mentioned, she works with his mom plus her family and friends are pressuring her to "stick this one out".  They're all tired of hearing about her breaking up with guy after guy I suppose and just want her to marry one finally and be done with it.

I know that we can't talk about her not going back to him because she would be doing so for the wrong reasons.  I mean, we have talked about that but I know that it goes in one ear and out the other because it is all about her emotions and her rash decision making.  I'm hoping that this book will give some insight with the DBT training on how to help them make rational, cognitive decisions.

[In_n_Out]

I had a service call to her office yesterday - first thing in the morning.  We had already been chatting via text.  I said that I'd see her soon and she said "don't run up and kiss me!".  I showed up at the office and she put on her best "professional" tone and greeted me.  I did the service needed for the doctor and then left.  At one point, she poked her head in to the room that I was in with tears in her eyes and she said "it's starting already, first thing in the morning".  I wasn't sure what she meant but later found out that the doctor had invalidated an emotion by giving her the cold shoulder.  

We later met at her little hideway that she drives to during her lunch hour.  We hugged and laughed and I "stole" a kiss goodbye.  She seemed to be in good spirits but was talking about the office manager and how she's "two-faced".

I went to the gym after work and while there, my ex said that she was stopping by my moms grave to water the recently planted rose bush that we had planted over the weekend.  I reinforced for her how special of a person that she is to me and that I had the two most important women in my life together.  She took a picture of the bush and how it is preparing for 5 new blooms.  I asked if she would join me for dinner later and she said that she would.

We met for dinner and during the entire meal she "vented" about her work and the office manager and how she's been threatened with her job and how she can't lose yet another job; that her parents would frown upon her and how she could lose the little house that she rents and loves so much.  I validated her emotions by agreeing that I can see how upset the office manager makes her and how anybody would be upset if they were talked down to like she is saying that she does.  At one point, I moved over to her side of the table and held her as she became emotional talking about work.

Talk about my replacement came up and this may of not been a good move on my behalf but I told her that I think that she should spend time with him this weekend "if that is what you feel that you want to do".  She had a startled look on her face.  I continued "because the more time that you spend with him, the more times he will invalidate your motions like the time that you said he (example) and you will eventually begin to pull away from him.  And I hope that it happens before you lose your house that you've worked so hard on and gone and moved in to his POS house that you say you don't care for and before you're stuck in a legally binding contract called marriage that you can't just up and walk away from".  I said also that I'm so confident that this will happen because "it's already happening with him, it happened with us and I can rest assured that it has happened in every past relationship that you have had".  She said "you brought me out to dinner for this?".  I thought that she would begin to have a strong reaction to that and storm out of the restaurant but instead she quickly changed her mood to happy by bringing up something funny and we laughed and moved on away from the subject.  Her way of deflecting and redirecting.

We stopped by my place after dinner because I had some things that she wanted to borrow.  We came upstairs and she sat on my bed and breathed a heavy sigh.  I sat next to her and put my arm around her and she said "I don't know where you stop and I begin.  You are my best friend and when we are 'in sync' I have never been closer to anybody else".  I went to kiss her and she pulled away.  I asked why is it that she pulls away when I go to kiss her now; "was it because of him?".  She said that it wasn't and then she cupped my face and we kissed, passionately.  I drove her to her car and along the way she was getting a bit emotional talking about how her parents would be crushed to know that we were talking again and that her best friend said "she would 'kill' her if she ever spoke to me again".  This is what is going to tear us apart again, or it is one of the big reasons why. I told her that some of my friends were the same way but I reassured them that when I had confided in them, I was hurting and placing all the blame on her (my ex) but that we were talking again and coming to understandings and to 'trust me'.  My friends have said that they may not agree with my decision but that they "will stand behind me" on it.  I let her know that.

I came home and got ready for bed.  We texted a few times about the "friends" thing (her friends not approving) and then just as I climbed in to bed, my phone rang - it was her.  She was crying.  I could barely understand her but the gist of it was that she's not a bad person and that she doesn't want to hurt me but she doesn't want to hurt him and that so many people are relying on her to "get it right" this time (the r/s with my replacement) and that I said to go spend time with him to find out and that maybe she needs to do that (crap, I knew that would come back to bite me!) but she knows that I will be crushed.  She was near panic.  I tried validation; "this seems to have you very upset and very confused right now".  After she stopped long enough for me to interject a question, I asked "do you find yourself happy when you are with me?".  She reiterated about "now" she has been so very happy and that when in sync, the world is perfect.  I asked if she found herself happy with him.  She replied "at the beginning it was wonderful and all of my friends and family said that I looked to be the happiest that they've ever seen me but then you came back, or I don't know when, but then it wasn't as happy and I became confused".  

I told her that I understood the confusion and the anxiety and suggested that she go splash cold water on her face to settle the nerves and to do a few things to get ready for bed.  She sounded like a little child; "Ok.  Ok, I will.  Thank you.  Just know that whatever happens, I love you so very much and that I'm not an awful person and I didn't want to hurt you".  I went to bed with that on my mind all night.

So I don't know.  Is the final end in sight?  I think that it very much is.  She mentioned that she had some Easter thing planned and that she didn't know what to do (go with him or what) and that the girls at her work all questioned her about me: "so that was your ex?" and that one office lady who is close to my replacements mom (who works there as well) said in effect "don't you go and hurt <him>!".  

So my ex is getting high pressure sales from her friends and family over my replacement and he apparently is in the FOG and pressuring her and she's starting to cave but has such mixed emotions because we have been on top of the world together for the past few weeks now.  Hell, I'd be confused and very upset too and she has the BPD so she must be a wreck.  She is a wreck, what am I saying.  I don't know how else to play this one but than to just keep what I've been doing which is working great for us but then if/when she says "I have to go see him" and my emotions turn up a notch and I say to myself "really?  how, why after the weeks that we just spent together?" and then do I just tell her that she needs to 'resolve' that and walk away or do I keep triangulating hoping that things continue to sour for them (they will)?  I have myself convinced that she will walk away again.  It's my way of preparing for the inevitable.  I guess my question at this point is, do I break it off for good if/when she does or just keep hanging in there because she seems so very close to coming back "for good" this time (but is it every really "for good"?).

Thanks for letting me blog and if anybody has any suggestions on all of this soap opera, I'm certainly open to hearing your thoughts on it.

[goldylamont]

in-n-out, what a story. i've read a good deal but not all so excuse if i miss some of the details.

from what i've read, i'm really worried that you aren't setting strong enough boundaries because you still strongly believe that (1) she will change and get better and (2) you two will repair the relationship and be long term monogamous. i'm concerned though because the story reads like the person who is most in *control* of everything here is her. she spends time with you pretty much whenever she wants (with the exception of you having dinner with a friend, which was a great thing for you to do), and she also does whatever she wants with her fiance--apologies if it's not officially her fiance but from what i read they are scheduled to be married but taking a break?

if you didn't find out about BPD until after you broke up but she's known about this all along then she was being dishonest from the start.

you now seem to be in a post-breakup semi-honeymoon phase. you're both getting some emotional support but you don't get any sex. she's perfectly ok with this arrangement while she waits for her emotions to come around and she can put her fiance back on a pedestal (and you back onto the dirt). are you ok with this arrangement?

her going with you to your mother's grave was a boundary buster -- you wanted to go alone, she said no and eventually you complied. that isn't to say that she didn't have real emotions around wanting to do it, but basically she got her way here. sure, she did lots of sweet stuff to tell you how much all this meant to *HER*... . while politely railroading anything that you wanted until you changed your mind. while you do have beautiful memories and she was behaving seemingly admirably by gifting you the photos of the grave and such--she ended up getting just what she wanted; and knew just how to do it. i'm not saying there was no sincerity in her actions, but, i'm just saying.

ultimately if you want to know how she would treat you if you decided to get married, well you already know this since you can see how she's treating her fiance now -- you two would have a short honeymoon period (just as you once had and as she just had with her fiance), then trouble would start (again), then she would start another emotional and/or sexual relationship with a new man, or ex, or her ex-fiance. at 43 this is probably just normal for her. it may be new ground for you but much of this is probably par for course in her experience.

she does sound like she's highly aware and at times remorseful/introspective. and this just confuses things because her actions don't reflect this for long. mine was high functioning too. oh and the "i want to get better for you" line is just that -- it's just a line. well, it was for me and in tons of other stories i've heard. maybe she wants to on monday, but will she still on friday? the answer to this lies in how she has already behaved--the answer is already there in the history

[In_n_Out]

Thank you so much for your reply as it feels good to be able to "talk" to *somebody* about this and with someone that knows the "back" story.  I have discussed with my therapist to some extent but the sessions are far too infrequent.

Some clarifications.  He isn't her fiance.  FWIU, he literally was pulling out the ring when she said "don't - I can't do this right now".  They then broke shortly afterwards and she's spent every day with me since.  They are texting and I would assume on the phone together at times, but she is spending a LOT of time with me the past few weeks (every day). 

Not that it really matters but the incident at my moms grave; it was completely HER idea that we go.  I basically tagged along with her.  She went again yesterday before seeing me to tend to the roses.  She sent a picture of how they look now.

Regarding revealing that she has BPD when we first started dating.  She did, sort of.  She had books that just looked like some of those "self help" books and I didn't really pay attention to what they were.  I knew that she had had difficulties with relationships and that she is highly emotional so I figured that these were psychology books to help her to understand herself.  I felt at the time (wrongly) that I didn't need to read a book to know that she's got some issues (why I would stick around knowing that I knew that is something that we all ask ourselves here).  But no, she didn't sit me down and say "I've been diagnosed with this thing called BPD and that means... . ".  Would you do that with someone that you were dating if you knew without a doubt that the person would see you as being "broken" and ill?  I can understand why she would only "hint" at it.

The "hang up" as I see it right now, and as she's indicated is that her parents, friends and co-workers *expect* her to go through with marrying this guy but she has said numerous times to me that she can't devote herself fully to him because she still loves me and she says that she has tried to rid herself of me but she just can't do it because only I know her as well as she knows herself.  So, she has:

1. Lots of peer pressure to do what others feel she should do and this happens every time with her overbearing parents and she relents and does not what she feels is best for her but what they expect of her because she feels that she is broken and doesn't know what is best for her and;

2. She has a semi-clean slate with him but he has begun to feel frustration and has invalidated her emotions so this is becoming less of an issue.  I know that she knows that the inevitable will happen again and I've validated her anxiety and confusion and asked her what would she do if she found herself suddenly married to this guy, stuck in his house and in a legally binding contract.  What will she do if she feels like she needs to run away again?

3. Self-pressure.  Shes' 43, never married, no kids and no career.  She feels that her time is passing and that if not now, nobody will want to marry her and that she's incapable of fixing her credit, paying off debt (student loans and an unemployment snafu) and getting material things on her own accord.  IOW, she feels that she has to rely on someone else to do the things that she could and should be doing for herself.

What do I think *could* happen?  I think that with the right positive reinforcement, she could and would resume therapy and DBT's (she's already started taking these steps but she will need some hand-holding to stay committed to it) and I know that she can devote herself to the r/s.  We lived together for 3 years and she only left twice; once to go to the beach for the weekend without me because she was dysregulated and the 2nd time was when she left the r/s "for good", slamming the door behind her.  But now, here we are.

Again, thanks for your input - keep it coming, I need the same validation that I've been giving to her emotions. 

[In_n_Out]

Earlier in the day I suggested a day trip for tomorrow and she suggested the city - one that we had gone to before that is a couple of hours away.  I was surprised that she agreed to go (somewhat).  So far, so good.  Except:

We just spent a couple of hours together.  We met at the park and walked.  Held hands a little and talked about previous visits to the same location.  I had sent an email to her this morning.  A very validating email but one that stressed that she doesn't have to make immediate decisions, including one with/about me and the one about my replacement and that I'm very afraid to see her stuck in something that she will want to but can't as easily run from.  She said that she read it and I was waiting for her to say that it's not my business (though I'm in the middle of all this so it is) but instead she said that she's tired (emotionally, mentally) and that it is sound advice and that I'm a very good writer (subject change attempt).  She said that Sunday she is doing some Easter egg thing with him (replacement) and his mom; that it had been planned for some time.  I asked how she handles keeping up the act after all of this time that we've spent together and she said that it was for her to worry about and not me.  That news, though not unexpected, dampered this visit for me this time.

We drove together to her old campus and we walked, holding hands, and the "impending doom" starting to creep in to the conversation.  Things like "I know what is coming and that nothing I say or do will alter that".  I joked that I'd pay her to be my pretend gf like Richard Gere did for Julia Roberts in "Pretty Woman"... . "yeah, I'll treat you to dinner or outings and you just pretend like we're a happy couple and when you need to do your thing, you go do it and I'll do the same".  I don't think that she was to keen on the idea.

We walked to the chapel that she had reserved for our wedding that we were to have.  We had gone to it twice recently and it had been locked but this time, the door was unlocked and we walked in to find a wedding rehearsal taking place.  We both became very emotional and quickly left.  Through tears we both said "what are we doing?".  She said that there was a reason that the doors were locked twice before and that's what we get for insisting on tempting fate.  

I drove her back to my car and we talked about doing movies together tonight with me cooking one of our old favorites but when I got to her car, the mood had soured and she had saddened.  She said that she thought it best to go home and pamper herself for the night and that tomorrow we will get up and go on a road trip with happy dance music playing and we will only think of the day and not what lays ahead.  I was too sad by this point to be very optimistic and the "doom" message came out again.  I mentioned my email and my concerns and she was crying.  I know that in the rational side of her mind, she knows that I'm right.  He will get frustrated with her and she will want to run away but she will be really stuck this time.  She knows that is going to happen, I can read it in her face yet because she can't make sound decisions due to all of the swirling emotions, all that she can think about is how hard it would be to tell her parents that she's left him to go back to me.  That is just an impossible task for her and though as much as she *wants* to do just that, she won't because she thinks that she can't.  It would cause too much hurt for her because she feels that her parents would abandon her if she made that decision.  I really, really believe that is exactly what is going on in her head.  

GOD, if somebody has some suggestions on how to stop that train wreck from happening, I will certainly take your ideas in to consideration.  I know though that the consensus will be that I just have to sit back and let it happen; let it work itself out and then who knows what may happen in the future.  The thought of that just puts a pit in my stomach and I feel the hurt already creeping up.  The crushed feeling.  The feeling that half of my soul is about to walk away in to something with someone that it knows it shouldn't go to but feels that it must... .

[goldylamont]

In-n-Out, i am completely out of my r/s with my ex so i am coming from that perspective. this is the Undecided Board so you will get both though. Here are my thoughts on your points above:

1. Lots of peer pressure to do what others feel she should do and this happens every time with her overbearing parents and she relents and does not what she feels is best for her but what they expect of her because she feels that she is broken and doesn't know what is best for her and;

except she never *does* what others feel that she should do--like fulfill her promises to marry you, or um, the other guy, after leading them to believe this is what she wanted... . perhaps more times than you are aware of. she is blaming her parents for her premarital insecurities and it sounds unfair to me. if she treats her family like this, expect her to treat you the same, who she knows less.

making you feel special, telling you that you understand her better than anyone in the world, vocabulary of soulmate -- all tools that get you do behave how she wants you to behave now. all this will stop when she's done with this phase of her emotions though. she said all the same stuff with the other guy she now doesn't want to marry. i'm not saying you aren't wonderful and that you aren't special--you *are*. but her actions show that you aren't as special to her as her words would lead you to believe. i say don't believe the words and only trust the actions by looking at them long term.

2. She has a semi-clean slate with him but he has begun to feel frustration and has invalidated her emotions so this is becoming less of an issue.  I know that she knows that the inevitable will happen again and I've validated her anxiety and confusion and asked her what would she do if she found herself suddenly married to this guy, stuck in his house and in a legally binding contract.  What will she do if she feels like she needs to run away again?

you are the exciting guy right now since she can devalue him to you and you are willing to listen and validate this for her. if you two were to start the process of taking vows then you will take on the role he is in now, and she will do the same thing and devalue you to another man she is spending time with whilst making him believe he is her new "soulmate".

i can't recall your whole story, but haven't you already been through the cycle of being the one she was going to marry and then got dropped? it will happen again as you now know that she has done this twice since you've known her. once to you, then to this guy... . i say don't be around for round 3

3. Self-pressure.  Shes' 43, never married, no kids and no career.  She feels that her time is passing and that if not now, nobody will want to marry her and that she's incapable of fixing her credit, paying off debt (student loans and an unemployment snafu) and getting material things on her own accord.  IOW, she feels that she has to rely on someone else to do the things that she could and should be doing for herself.

so, if you are legally bound to her through marriage, if the relationship ends she'll get a lot of your money. not that money is her motivation, just stating the facts. if she can't take care of herself financially and you take on this role, this is just the dynamic.

What do I think *could* happen?  I think that with the right positive reinforcement, she could and would resume therapy and DBT's (she's already started taking these steps but she will need some hand-holding to stay committed to it) and I know that she can devote herself to the r/s.  We lived together for 3 years and she only left twice; once to go to the beach for the weekend without me because she was dysregulated and the 2nd time was when she left the r/s "for good", slamming the door behind her.  But now, here we are.

Again, thanks for your input - keep it coming, I need the same validation that I've been giving to her emotions. 

most of the story i hear from people who have recycled say that once back together with their ex, the relationship was even shorter and more abusive. just extrapolating from this, i think what could happen is -- instead of you living together for 3 years it would be only 1 this time. there would be more frequent leaving. you may possibly take the financial brunt of her therapy/living expenses and be left with this debt when she leaves.

^^ I'm just showing some other possibilities I see as likely, although I know it may be hard to hear. I hope you know the time i took to think about all this helps me too in some way and i hope it helps you whether you would take this advice or not. i would respect it either way. best of luck to you!

[In_n_Out]

I hear ya and yes, I know deep down inside that you are absolutely right.  We were engaged but when things had gotten financially tough for us (after she quit yet another job), I said out of frustration that she should take back the ring for the time being because the payments were too much.  This was my response to her quitting her job and it was a rotten thing to say.  She took it to heart and she alone went and returned the ring.  We lived together for another year after that in a confused state of "are we engaged or just bf/gf now or are we just roommates?". 

To continue tonights saga, I was at the gym and she sent a text saying that she fell, but she was ok.  I probed for more info and she said that she fell in to the bathtub.  So, I rush over there and sure enough, she was changing a bulb in the bathroom vanity and fell back getting down off the counter and fell backwards in to the tub.  Her forearm is bruised, she bumped her head and twisted her ankle.  I pampered her, cleaned up the mess, fixed her dinner and made her comfortable on the sofa.  She asked me to sit with her.  Long story short, we began to kiss passionately.  It ended there but probably could of gone on further.  All awhile, it was "my heart is torn... . I'm so confused... . I'm so (emotionally) tired from it all". 

So really, tomorrow we'll have a wonderful day and who knows what will happen tomorrow night.  Might as well... . right... . because come Sunday, she has a date with my replacement.  And then next Monday it all begins anew, or it doesn't.  I guess it depends on what happens Sunday and where her heart is then.  Maybe she devalues him and leaves for good (ha!) or maybe we just keep triangulating.  It's not healthy but I'm literally just taking it one day at a time.  There is no forseeable future.

[cosmonaut]

This is a very heartfelt and fascinating series of posts, In_n_Out.  You're obviously being very sincere and it's clear that you care deeply about your ex.

I am a bit worried, however, that your ex doesn't seem willing to accept responsibility for her disorder.  I see how she recognizes that she has problems, that she's confused, that she knows she is hurting people.  I don't see what she's doing about it, though.  That, to me, is a serious issue.  She still seems to expect everyone else to do all the work and keep walking on eggshells.  I think that it's good that you are validating her, but you are also walking on eggshells - scared to say the "wrong" thing and worried that the explosion  (and abandonment) is finally coming.  Is that how you want to keep living?  It seems you are conflicted about the answer to that question, and I think it's one you should continue to reflect on.

I know you want things to work out with your ex.  Honestly, I am very conflicted about this same issue.  I want to be with my ex, but I also know that things will never work unless she can take ownership and responsibility for her disorder.  No one else but her can fix things, no matter how much I want to do it for her.  I do hope things can work out with your ex, but I think you need to be cautious and sober about that possibility.  I would really advise you to not get involved again unless she is demonstrating concrete progress, and that will begin with her accepting that SHE is the problem - not you or anyone else.  It is her disordered thinking and emotional disregulation that is the root cause.  No one else but her can change that.  I just don't want to see you left high and dry again when she abandons you, because she refuses to face her disorder.  Unfortunately, running is easy and change is very hard.

I hope that you don't take this as an attack.  I'm just being honest.  I know how you feel.  I am in the trenches right there with you.  My heart is torn in pieces about my ex.  Anyway, keep posting.  I am eager to know how things turn out and what you decide.

[maxsterling]

Wow, some very touching and interesting developments.  I really feel for her.   But like cosmonaut said, and what I feel about my own r/s, even though our emotions may be there, we deep down want some kind of evidence things will be different or improve.  The track record for pwBPD is very poor, and I struggle with the same thoughts - how do I feel comfortable that I am different from her numerous previous r/s?  How do I know that I am not part of the same cycle, that she isn't just using me to fill that same void within her?  Not that I think she will ever cheat on me or move on to someone else, but I do wonder if she will ever feel stable, or will she always want something else?  By that I mean a new job, a new place to live, travel to here or there, new car, new clothes... . I'm not sure I can live that way, even if she commits herself to me.  I need to see her commit herself to herself to know something has changed.  That means friends independent of me.  That means a network in the city I live in - right now it feels she is miserable here with the exception of me.  That means a hobby, things she likes to do that do not have to include me.  That means the ability to take care of her own basic needs. 

It sounds like while your ex knows she has issues, I bet she has known for years, and tried this for awhile, then tried that, thinking she is getting somewhere, only to his a roadblock and switch directions.  The net result: the same thing.  She's chasing feelings, not finding herself.  And it probably will be the same thing if you get back together.  it will be fine for a few months until she realizes she is still unhappy.  And then she will search.  My brother is married to a pwBPD, and that's been the same story for a decade.  She realizes she is unhappy every few months, and then looks for the next thing to make her feel energized.  And when that wears off, she's back to looking again. meanwhile, my brother is exhausted from the instability, and financially broke.    Right now, your ex is getting close to you because you are the new thing - validating her feelings of not wanting to be with your "replacement".

I think the only way to have a r/s with her right now would be to remove all expectations and take things for what they are.  Accept she has BPD and always will, will always have these behaviors, and nothing you can ever do will change that.  Accept that she probably will recycle you, probably be back-and-forth at times.  Accept that this could go south at any time and be okay with that.  Accept that she probably will never be stable.  The more you can let go of expectations, the longer you can live in her world, and the happier you will be when you are in her world. 

[In_n_Out]

I think the only way to have a r/s with her right now would be to remove all expectations and take things for what they are.  Accept she has BPD and always will, will always have these behaviors, and nothing you can ever do will change that.  Accept that she probably will recycle you, probably be back-and-forth at times.  Accept that this could go south at any time and be okay with that.  Accept that she probably will never be stable.  The more you can let go of expectations, the longer you can live in her world, and the happier you will be when you are in her world.

Yes, this is the key right here.  It is a day by day, moment by moment thing.  I have no expectations that we will ever be a couple again as we were before.  Not unless or until she takes positive steps to stop the merry-go-round and make the changes she needs to make.

She just left.  We spent the day together; a two hour drive each way to a cute little town that has lots of shops.  It was a wonderful time; both car rides were very nice with hand holding on the way and then her head on my shoulder most of the way home.  We laughed and talked and when we did have one "hiccup", where *I* started to get withdrawn over something, *she* perked me back up with a funny story and I was right back on track.  I commented to her then "wow, that was a great recovery hun, you pulled me right back. That never happened that fast like that before, great job!".  She later commented on the way home about how it seems now we can get over the bumps much more quickly and easier than before, where it would of ruined the rest of the day.

She had fallen the last night, I may of written about it.  Well, after the long car ride, her neck and body began to tighten up so I offered a body rub.  She agreed and though there was no sex, it sure was as close to foreplay as you can get.  She dressed and left just a bit ago.

But, the kicker is, Sunday she's spending the day with my replacement doing Easter crap.  It's with him and his mom, whom she says "adores me and he has such a wonderful family".  I made the comment that it's too bad she can't just date his mom.  That could of sparked something but she brushed it off.  We did talk briefly about "him".  She mumbled and I asked her to speak up... . she said that he doesn't do things that she likes like I do.  He doesn't like the same music, he doesn't do x, y and z like I do.  I didn't dig any deeper.  I didn't want to hear it even though it was something in my favor.  I did say that I know that she feels "stuck" in her current situation and she's going to want to "explore" what will happen with that and that she's going to lose a good man in the process.  She stopped me and we quickly changed the subject.  She would occasionally throw out references however to things like "will you always be my best friend, even if ... . " and other indications that she'll be pulling away again.  I just have to take it day by day and not expect anything more at this point.

We did talk about BPD just before we got home.  I don't recall how we got in to that conversation but I said (this from one of my books) that she is emotionally vulnerable meaning that a trigger such as something she sees, hears, smells, experiences can cause her to become emotionally dysregulated and when that happens, the emotion that is trigger spikes sharply and intensely.  She asked if I thought that she was bipolar and I said "no" because a pwBipolar would have that spiked emotion for days, weeks or months even but in her case, she can be settled within 20 or 30 minutes.  She said "so that's why people feel like they have to 'catch up' to my emotions because I will return to 'normal' just like that".  Yes, that is part of it I said.  She said "and the other person gets frustrated because my emotions spike like that and then the next thing they know, I'm over it".  Yes, true.  It can be very frustrating for those that don't know you or understand that about you.  She then got a serious look in her eyes and said "am I mentally ill?".  I reassured her that she is not.  "Am I a full blown BPD?".  That's not for me to diagnose but I would say that you clearly have 2 or 3 traits (I lied.  From what I can tell, she has 7 or 8 of them).  We talked about the 9 traits and went over some of them.  It was actually a very good talk.  I mentioned DBT therapy and asked her if she thought that would be something beneficial for her.  "well yeah, I need to resume that and I promise I'm checking to see if I can qualify for the insurance that would cover most of that". 

So who knows.  I'm not sad tonight even though for the first time in a couple of weeks I probably won't see her for a day or two *and* she is planning to be with my replacement.  I could stew over it; *if* they had broken up as she said they did, why is she letting him get in to the push/pull recycle dance?  No need to ask her that, I know the answer and there's nothing that I can say or do that would prevent that.  I'll just focus on me and if/when she comes around again, I'll enjoy my time with her but I will need to start to pull away emotionally because at some point, I will hurt again - and even more intensely this time, especially if she does go for good to "explore" what he has to offer.  Secretly though, I'm hoping that thoughts of our wonderful days together the past couple of weeks screws up her interactions with him so badly that she splits away from him.  Wishful thinking, no doubt.

[goldylamont]

Secretly though, I'm hoping that thoughts of our wonderful days together the past couple of weeks screws up her interactions with him so badly that she splits away from him.  Wishful thinking, no doubt.

In_n_Out this concerns me. Taking this position you are actively taking part in the emotional abuse of her fiance. Once I realized how my ex would use men and pit them against each other like this, her niceness, flirting, 'friendship' were all revealed for what they were--a tool for her to use me at her whim. And often times use me as a way to hurt someone else who was probably a really good person. Sure, she's devaluing the hell out of this guy now to you, and this gives you a boost to the ego. And this is what she does--to *everyone* judging her past, no? She devalues one man to validate the vanity of another... . and it works.

Will she stop doing this? Why would she ever stop and truly seek help when it's working for her?

Pitting you two against each other is what she's doing. Talks of therapy and growth is only what she's saying.

Right now, you are validating her, and being dishonest to her about her being mentally ill. And you are doing this to try and get what you want out of the situation. What you want is not bad at all, but... .

BUT do you realize that she's playing the same game with you, just that she's better at it? She's definitely validating your ego by making you feel like you are more attractive and more meaningful in her life than this other man. She knows this is what you want to hear, just like you know she wants to hear that she's great and that her illness isn't as bad as it really is. So you tell her untruths to try and get her back and she tells you untruths to stroke your ego to keep you where she wants until her mood changes a few months down the line.

This is why these relationships can be so toxic--because one day the full truth will come out about both of your motives. And you'll end up telling her how you really feel and that she does have a mental illness. And she'll tell you in one way or another that it doesn't matter because she wasn't really interested in forever to begin with... . because it's not who she is, regardless of what she wants in the moment.

I'm just looking at this from the outside perspective and i see two people being dishonest with each other and themselves, both trying to live a dream without doing the difficult task of being truthful.

My advice is no longer to leave your ex for good. Reason being I think you've already made your mind up about this and this is OK In-n-Out. However, my advice is--to set your boundaries this time. Know in advance:

** How long you are willing to put up with her seeing another man?

** How long before you become completely clean about how you feel about her illness?

** What will you do if you catch her lying/cheating?

** What specifically do you want from her (and when) in order for *you* to stay around?

If you don't have answers for these questions in advance, then yes the cycle will keep repeating and you will keep taking her back--but each time she will become more emboldened and thus simultaneously more unhappy with the relationship and more sure that she can do anything she wants to you and still be able to get back with you whenever she wants--if this is truly how you feel, she will know and exploit this.

Set boundaries when you go back this time so that there won't be a next time after. And consider how your actions will affect her current fiance(?) and his family and if they deserve it. Both you and he should be on the same team, not competing for something that shape-shifts at will. That is the best advice I can give.

[In_n_Out]

Excellent reply and I appreciate your taking the time to write and post that!

"Lying about her illness".  I'm going in baby steps here.  First it was just mentioning BPD to see what her reaction to it was.  That was a couple of weeks ago.  She identified with it and in her email response she said that it was "suggested by her therapist in 2007 that she *may* have clear signs of it".  The next step was the one taken last night coming home and that is to identify what those traits are and to let her tell me if she thinks that she exhibits those traits.  She did that when we discussed the emotional dysregulation, the self-harming (been a while since she's done that she says), suicide (says she has never been), the sense of abandonment, the push/pull dance routine.  Next will be to continue to urge her to seek help or to urge her to follow through with getting it.  I purchased an ebook for her "Stop Sabotaging: A 31 Day DBT Challenge to Change Your Life" and "loaned" it to her (Kindle).  I messaged her last night about it and she said that she would look in to it today.  She has 7 days to accept the loan so I will know if she's even taken the time to look at it or not.  To me, that will be the first indication of how serious she is of addressing the issue at hand (or not).

The goal setting or self-boundaries that you mention I have already begun to think about a while ago now but yes, this weekend I need to etch those boundaries in stone.  I mean really, this will very likely go on and on with her finally (really) breaking up with my replacement, only to do the recycle dance with him while finding the next guy and all the while I'm on a shoestring trying to hang on getting laced through an eyelet every now and then just so that I feel like I'm a part of the shoe.  Yes, I get that and so yes, I need to set those boundaries for myself.  At some point, it will have to be "friends only" - no "I love you's" or anything hinting at romance but could we really do that?  Could I continue to see her go through guy after guy and what will she do once I finally do meet somebody else?  No, that really wouldn't work unless we both completely detached the emotional feelings which won't happen in the "dance" that we are in now.  So yeah, I need to sit down and think long and hard about how long it is that I want to keep dancing before I not only get off the dance floor but leave the club entirely.

Good post, thanks for your thoughts!

[Pecator]

Wow, that was and incredibly long read…Don't know why I stuck with it, but I am glad I did.

Goldy, thanks so much for your words. While aimed at In/out, they were very helpful for me as well.

I/O I can identify so much with what you are going through. Then again there is so much that I can't. Seems to be part of the complexity of BPD.

Being that I just found this place a few days ago, I don't have the words of wisdom that goldy has. However, I have a story that might help you. I know it will help me to tell it.

I am currently in very limited contact with my ex of 3 years. I miss her so much I can hardly go out in public without seeing something that reminds me how "great" we were together. I am emotionally aware, work in a helping profession, love to dance and have great fun, have no kids and grew to love her two boys deeply. "I can't believe I found the whole package," was her mantra.

I am learning what "incredibly loaded relationship bond" means.

My ex is very high functioning. Very stable in so many ways. Actually, in every way…except relationships and emotions. To her credit she has developed an ability to build the walls she needs to succeed without dealing with what scares her most. She has even been seeing the same therapist for almost ten years. However, her T has no clue of her history of being sexually abused nor that she is a product of her mom's affair that has been denied and covered up.

I digress.

I/O I went through what you are going through now. Goldy is right. I wish I could have read his words a year and a half ago.

Summer of 2012 I went through hell that had nothing to with the relationship. My SO stuck with me every step of the way. In Sept. I found out that I was going to be downsized an lose my job. As an immigrant to Canada (from the US) it meant I could lose my status. Suddenly things began to go wonky. A trip we planned for my nieces wedding "didn't make sense financially." She began expressing deep anger over what happened on a dance floor a month earlier. I went alone to the wedding. The whole trip I regretted that she did not get to meet my family on such a grand occasion. Meanwhile, she started going to bars with her single friends.

I was getting emails saying "Love you" "Miss you" and "Can't wait till you get back"

The day I get back, she planned a night out with her friends. I was profoundly surprised and to say the least disappointed. I texted as was accustomed and got no reply until "why do you keep bothering me…give me some space." (something to that effect).

Now, I am actually the least jealous person in the world (a fact that bothered her and she used to accuse me that I didn't care enough about her). So, this seemed strange. I always gave her space and never worried about with whom she spent time.

I am struggling with the details, but she began cutting me out of her life and claiming we were broken up while we never had any conversations surrounding that. My memories become clear on the day we were driving back to her place. I remember the stop light very clearly. She is incredible at creating false narratives, but she has never been able to lie to me. Normally when I picked up on this I let it go. This time I couldn't. I pressed her for what was wrong.

"I met someone"

In a VERY rare expression of sad emotion, she went on to justify herself. "I wasn't intending it. I went out with (friend) cause I needed a break. Just to have a fun night. I was talking to this guy and he asked me out. I just wanted to feel what it was like to be on a normal date again. I never expected that it would be as nice as it was."

Two things:

Again, I have worked hard enough on my emotional life to understand that in times of stress, it is not crazy to let loose and seek to feel desirable. But to this day, she does not see the line she crossed by giving him her card and arranging for a second encounter (without ever bringing up to me that she could be able to do that).

Second, I made the fatal flaw of believing that I had the emotional intelligence, patience, understanding and unconditional love to see us through. I justified this by seeing the chaos I brought pushed her into this position.

The next month was the worst of my entire life. And that is saying something because my life has never been easy.

What you describe in great detail so reflects what occurred during that month. I was dealing with great crisis in my life. This loaded r/s was all that inspired me. Every smile or touch of the hand inspired me to continue on. After a year plus, it was not so easy to disentangle our lives. She agreed to attend a wedding with me that we had made confirmations months before. It was an amazing evening. I spun her around the dance floor like never before. She still says that was a life changing night. But she still ran off to the bathroom to appease my replacement with texts.

So be it. I became headstrong in winning her back. Even though a week later her proclamation that she needs to see where the relationship with my replacement was taking her almost killed me, I returned from the brink of death believing that this r/s was why I live.

Like you describe so well, every look from her eyes, every touch of her hand, every moment of being together (which came from my ability to give her space) fueled my desire to find a healthy way to be with her.

Yet it caused greater conflict in her life.

She began to feel the shame of having two men in her life, being less than honest with us both.

My T kept urging me to let her go. She would never let me go. I had to be the bigger person and give up. The current dynamic would hurt us both.

I gained the strength to accept that. I truly knew that if I did love her, this was the only path. I focussed on a casual statement that kept her engaged. She said that I was the warmest man she had ever met. I used this theme to make the hardest decision of my life. I decided to give up. But not without one last testament to my love and devotion to her.

By this point it was mid-December. I bought her a Christmas present. I gave her an electric blanket. I attached a note saying that I understood that she could not let go even if it was in her best interest. That I would have to be the one to do that. I hoped that the blanket would remind her of the warmth that she felt with me. That she know how much she was loved and every time she felt the warmth of that blanket she knew how deeply she was loved.

She called as soon as she found that gift.

She expressed emotions I never knew she had.

She told me how she knew my replacement was to build a wall against me, but that she could never face a Christmas without me.

This flipped my world. REALLY? I get my "lammy" back? I was at the top of my life. All of my patience, endurance, and devotion to our love was what it took.

We had an amazing holiday season. Love conquered the travesties of life. Our love grew deeper than I have ever known before.

But it was only a prelude to the absolute worst year of my life.

I am finding myself completely drained after writing this.

I have to break from this. I wanted to tell you the whole story. I will if you want to hear it. I am just exhausted now. Give a day or two.

If not, just know that after another year and a half, she bolted again.  After devaluing my replacement, she is again with him. Within a week of us taking space, she pursued him and made any contact with her a threat to her relationship with him. He has no idea that we were intimate through the whole time they were together before, nor that they became intimate while I still had clothes under the bed.

She bolted in a way that even her boys, who still text me ":)on't leave us" is confounded by the fact that they like my replacement.

I post this hoping that you don't want to be in my place. Hoping that you take Goldy's words seriously. It's not about just you and her. There is a third innocent part. She is devaluating you and him alternatively according to her needs.

If you think you hurt now, you have no idea what awaits.

[cosmonaut]

Pecator, I'm so sorry that you've been through such a difficult ordeal with your ex.  The roller coaster of highs and lows, I love you/I hate you, there and then gone (and on and on) with a pwBPD is just insane!  It will grind grown men into dust.  How are you managing with your breakup?  Are you working on detaching?  Are you trying to work things out with your ex?

I know how hard it is to be constantly reminded of an ex.  EVERYTHING reminds me of mine.  It's difficult to detach from that degree of closeness with someone.  Someone you truly loved and you expected to be with forever.

I'd be interested in hearing more of your story if you feel like sharing it.  This board has been very therapeutic and supportive for me during my own fairly recent breakup.

[In_n_Out]

Well I think that it's finally over now.  She had her day with my replacement and her mom (because we had it planned for some time and she gets along so well with his mom).  Yeah, ok, silly me was going to be "ok" with that as long as it went how I figured it would; a couple of hours over there and then she'd stroke my ego to tell me that they didn't get along and that it's not going to work.  I saw her in the morning before she went over there and that (of course) seemed to be the indication.  She said that her and her friend called him "Eeyore" after the donkey that was introverted and depressed.  We agreed that that kind of person wasn't healthy in her life.  "You're 'home' to me" she says as I left her house this morning.

Well, I went over to a friends for dinner and a movie and she was still over there (several hours later). She sent some "urgent" texts along with a picture of the Easter eggs that they made.  She said basically that she'll love me forever "no matter" and that she's having fun but it's a lot of pressure.  I replied that I was watching a movie with a friend and would text later.  Well, I had to drive by on my way home; I had to know and sure enough, she's still out.  I said "drive home safely.  Seems like you two worked things out.  I'm happy if you're happy".  She replied "I am only sure of the sound of my heart as the breath in me leaves and this day is done. And tomorrow I will try to remember to smile, even through the hidden tears".  Seems like sex that she didn't really want to have to me.

So I said that I hope that she's happy with her choices and that all that I wanted was her happiness and hope that she's found it.  No reply.  Time to block and move on.  You guys called it, she'll use whomever she can to get what she needs irregardless of the emotions of those that she tramples on.  What a lying b*****.  Should be of no surprise, I knew that she would do this.

Thanks all for your input.  Better that it happened now instead of later.

[cosmonaut]

I'm sorry, In_n_Out.   :'(  She's being so unfair to you (and the replacement).  You really do deserve better.  There's a woman out there waiting to meet a man as caring and thoughtful and loving as you.

I've decided to give up on my hopes of ever working things out with my ex, too.  The advice I've gotten from this forum, my therapist, and even my friends has been overwhelmingly to forget her and move on.  Despite that, I did call her last night and, predictably, got to answer.  I left a voicemail asking how she's been and saying that I missed her and think of her so often.  I said that I understood that she felt she needed to break things off, that I wanted things to be good between us, and I hoped that we could talk soon.  Absolutely no response.  I guess I got burned too.  I had to reach into the the fire to be sure it hurts.  She's got problems FAR bigger than I can ever hope to surmount.  I love her.  I do.  I think in some way I always will.  But it's just impossible to have a real relationship with her.  It's truly impossible.

I'm very sorry to hear that your ex was stringing you along.  It's a devastating effect of the disorder - the need to attach, but the inability to achieve true and lasting intimacy due to their engulfment fears.  It's tragic.  Your replacement will sooner or later come to the same fate as all the rest.  She's not going to live happily ever after with him.  She probably won't live happily ever after at all.  Not unless she's willing to deal with her disorder, and from all you've said, it doesn't sound like that will be happening.  You can have a happily ever after, though.  I can too.  We just need to focus on ourselves right now.  Detach.  Heal.  Grow.  Thrive.

[Pecator]

I too am sorry.

One thing though, if it is over, truly walk away and don't even glance back.

Your SO is manipulating you even more than mine did the first time and much more than now. She is giving you little signs of love in texts and such. Mine resented every time I tried to contact her. I am not sure which is worse.

And I totally get "driving by to see." But be careful, that can be crazy-making.

The first time she was with my replacement, I had just bought her an iPhone. She had neither the savvy nor decent computer so I set it up on mine. It didn't take long before I realized I could use the "Find my iPhone" app to know where she is. I justified it to myself and even my T as information helps me to heal. I told my T that it was like a painful procedure at the doctor. I am the type that always has to watch. Whether stitches or resetting a broken hand, I always prefer to see it coming than looking away and waiting for the pain.

I never stalked her with the app. Well, I suppose it was still cyber-stalking. But it was like a drug. That is the crazy-making part. "Oh, she is at her mom's" and I would remember how her family loved me and always wondered when I would marry her.

Even worse, ":)amn, she spent the night with him, things must be going well." Damn, she went home early, things must not be going well." This s**t will drive you mad! This is the crazy part of BPD. We as partners are trying to figure out thinks the the pwBPD doesn't even understand.

I will admit, this is a do as I say not as I do advice. I would give anything to be able to use that app again.  When I sit alone in my apartment for days, I really wish I could see what ever pain is coming. But that is the part of BPD than affects us as partners. This is where we need to focus on ourselves

[In_n_Out]

The thing that gets me is that I *knew* not to listen to what she says but instead observe what she does; her actions speak louder than her words and yet I got sucked in not once (initial r/s), not twice, but three times and each time it was because she has the rehearsed lines down pat and can play them as needed, when needed.  As long as someone is buying her groceries, helping her with bills AND being all googly eyed over her, she will toss out those lines as needed to keep you doing those things. 

Her last text to me last night is filled with guilt and shame.  She knows exactly what she's doing to people but she has absolutely no way to control herself.  She will prostitute herself in the name of "love" and material goods. 

When I was at her house in the morning (it was *my* turn in the morning, his later in the day), she was in the kitchen saying "all that I ever wanted was just to be loved and to love.  I have so much love to give".  Well, again, it's whatever it takes in the name of love and she will step all over somebody to get her needs filled and once they step back and say "something isn't right here" and she senses that, she begins to pull away and the search for the next victim begins.  A truly dreadful and evil disorder this BPD is.

[cosmonaut]

The thing that gets me is that I *knew* not to listen to what she says but instead observe what she does; her actions speak louder than her words and yet I got sucked in not once (initial r/s), not twice, but three times and each time it was because she has the rehearsed lines down pat and can play them as needed, when needed.  As long as someone is buying her groceries, helping her with bills AND being all googly eyed over her, she will toss out those lines as needed to keep you doing those things. 

Her last text to me last night is filled with guilt and shame.  She knows exactly what she's doing to people but she has absolutely no way to control herself.  She will prostitute herself in the name of "love" and material goods. 

You said it, man.  Finding attachments, no matter how interchangeable, are a matter of survival to pwBPD.  At least in their distorted thinking - but no matter, to them it is a very real need.  You're right, they truly can't help themselves.  It's like needing to eat to them.  Many pwBPD have become extremely practiced at manipulation to get what they need - it's how they survived childhood (and adulthood in many cases).  I have never met anyone more skilled at subtle manipulation than my ex.  She has perfected a way of pulling at your heart strings, being vulnerable and helpless, and guilting you into doing what she wants.  She is a grand master at it.  That is something I am starting to see now that the FOG is lifting a bit - the massive degree to which I was manipulated from the very start.  And how easily I fell into the role of the fixer and caretaker - the white knight.  My own codependent needs made me the perfect target for her.

Don't beat yourself up about things, In_n_Out.  All of us here have fallen for the same sort of routine.  I certainly did.  Your story could easily be my story.  The important thing is we now realize how much we were manipulated and used.  The next step seems to be detaching and working on analyzing how we became such willing victims.

I agree with you: BPD is one of the most dreadful and evil disorders I know.  It causes incredible suffering for everyone involved.

[In_n_Out]

And as much as my intellect tells me that it was all lies and manipulation, I know that if at this very moment she sent a text saying that it was a horrible day/night for her and that they fought and that she's "confused" about everything but "knows only one thing, that I love you", I would swallow that fishhook again just like that.  It really is an effect on our brains that they have; the same part of the brain that deals with addiction.  I know that it will kill me but I'll take that chance just for another "dance with the dragon".  Wow. 

[cosmonaut]

I am the same way.  If my ex called and said that she was so sorry, and she knows she hurt me so much, and she was so confused, and she misses me, and she loves me, and she's realized that she made a terrible mistake - yeah, I would probably take her back too.  Even though I know that it will almost certainly end in tears.  Even though my head knows she's just manipulating me again.  My heart would probably overrule my head and I'd be back in the dance too.

We have to work on detaching.  That is how we can break the cycle.  There are many posts here from others than have managed to do this and when they have been contacted by their exes, realized that they sincerely don't want to be with them anymore.  We can get there too.

Can block her texts/calls?  Or at least ignore them?  I expect she's going to be going all out now that she knows she's been caught and the triangulation is ending.  Don't let her reel you back in.  Stay strong.  NO CONTACT.  That's the overwhelming recommendation of those who have successfully recovered.  It may not have to be NC forever, but is does while we detach.

[In_n_Out]

Yes, I have an app that will block her texts and put any calls from her straight to VM.  I just need to find the strength to pull the trigger and do the blocking; but I'm fighting the "need" to want to hear from her one more time about what happened last night.  My heart says "you're making assumptions" and that *I* should feel guilty because I was over at a female friends house last night having dinner and watching movies - something that she no doubt would argue that she was simply doing the same thing.  Of course the difference is my friend is strictly plutonic where as her r/s is not.  And yes, it is absolutely the FOG that I'm in.  I know that.  I'll find that strength though and your post will help.  I'll keep reading it and hope that I can convince myself that I need to do what I need to do to protect myself - NOW.

[cosmonaut]

Yes, do it NOW.  Do it while you are angry and motivated.  Don't wait until tonight when you have cooled and miss her and she starts with her empty, sweet nothings again.  Block her calls, block her texts, add her to your email block list, and de-friend her on Facebook.  This board is very clear that this is the easiest route for BOTH of you.  She's never going to face her disorder while she's being catered to either.  You have to take care of you and your son.  She is not your responsibility anymore.  She can take care of herself.  She's a survivor.  She's shown that time and again.

Seriously, block her NOW.  If you have an iPhone, you can use the block feature to not receive any calls or texts from her.  Don't let her pull you back in.  You know she can't be trusted.

[Pecator]

God, I need to be on these boards more and more. Hope I am not switching addictions.

What cosmo says is so scary. I don't know what I would do if were in your shoes I/O. Mine has blocked me so she is in NC. I need to do that as well, but we are still a bit entangled. I still have a few things in her place. Then there are the kids. Not surprising, neither their father nor her last relationship will even speak to her (after seven and five years respectively). Unfortunately the kids suffered as well. I so do not want to be that person. She has acknowledged that they miss me very much. I took the 15 year-old out for dinner last week. It was very nice. In the only phone call I had with her, she said she was going to have to sit down and talk to him. It was very uncomfortable for her. I am sure it also threatens the lies she has told to my replacement.

But I/O follow cosmos advice. It was the most beautiful, romantic, and hopeful time when she came back to me the first time. It only lasted a month until things went bad again. She is devaluing him to you and you to him. I cannot tell you how much it hurt when she did it a second time.


Yet like you both, I don't know what I would do if she called me

[maxsterling]

Wow. You know, I've been following your saga because I think it was giving me hope.  I thought your ex might be one who finally started to "get it" and grow and be able to take some control over her life.  But, it sounds like she's still just a "glimmer" and probably just still in the cycle, and still incapable of being what you need.  It sounds like she is really confused, and I feel bad for her.  I feel bad because she obviously needs something, but I don't even think she knows what it is, and even if she had what she thinks she needs, she would still not be satisfied.

If you are strong enough to accept her as a friend and accept the push-pull for what it is, by all means let the communication lines be open.  If you are expecting more, perhaps best to shut things down as you know you will be led down the path of hurt.   

Personally, I'd be so bitter at a woman who cheated on me to so much as even want to talk to her ever again.  So I admire your strength here for even considering her again.  I can't tell you what path to take, but I can say that from what you have shared about her she sounds more functional than the significant others of the rest of us.  Unfortunately, she still falls short of someone you can have a healthy relationship with. 

I guess I am going through similar with my GF.  I sometimes think she is right on the brink of a breakthrough, then I get reminders that this is all part of her decades long cycle.  she gets it, but then she doesn't.  And then I realize it's the same thing - she can't really say what makes her happy, what she wants out of life or why (other than to be married and have a child), she can't make decisions about anything. 

I'm sure if your ex would make a decision and say "I want this!" and go for it, it would make you feel a whole lot better.  Same goes with me.  She doesn't seem like she feels very strongly about anything she wants - so how do I know she really feels that strongly about me as opposed to me being the vehicle that meets her needs?

[goldylamont]

really good advice and convo from everyone.

In-n-Out, i wanted to thank you actually for being kind when interpreting my posts. I realize that much of what i say sometimes may be very direct and not what people want to hear. I try and speak my truth and I have a protective streak (don't we all, hah! ) but sometimes after I click the "Post" button here I wonder if I may be saying too much or perhaps not being gentle enough in my delivery. I was worried and you were understanding with your responses so thank you for this.

The other people posting are really giving good insights--I will perhaps throw in my 2 cents about No Contact. And that is that you don't necessarily have to look at it only as if you will never ever ever ever have any contact whatsoever with this person. This can be an overall goal, but I don't want you beating yourself up like you broke some rule if you get weak or if the initiates and you get weak. Try setting realistic goals for going NC and know it is a process.

Also, as cosmo stated use your HEALTHY ANGER to assist you in blocking her on facebook, etc. This is what I did the *last* time my ex pissed me off. Immediately deleted all forms of communication and FB friendship--this was symbolic as I had her phone # memorized, but this ritual/symbolism is an important step to take to reclaim your healthy independence. Honor your anger by protecting yourself the next time you feel it surge up! Then it's easier for your anger to pass since it's done it's job.

Also also, regarding NC... . if you can don't contact her at all. In your situation I say it's *highly* likely she will contact you because, well you know how a shark can smell a drop of blood in like 1 cubic mile of seawater--ya mon she can tell that she still has some power over you. I think a good line to say in response to her, if you have to buckle and communicate is this:

"Hi ex. I appreciate you contacting me. I hope you know I will always care for you. However I need time to allow myself to heal and move on. Best of luck to you whatever path you choose." << short, sweet, non-provoking. and you can give the finger to her in the privacy of your own home after you send it 

[In_n_Out]

Wow. You know, I've been following your saga because I think it was giving me hope.  I thought your ex might be one who finally started to "get it" and grow and be able to take some control over her life.  But, it sounds like she's still just a "glimmer" and probably just still in the cycle, and still incapable of being what you need.  It sounds like she is really confused, and I feel bad for her.  I feel bad because she obviously needs something, but I don't even think she knows what it is, and even if she had what she thinks she needs, she would still not be satisfied.

If you are strong enough to accept her as a friend and accept the push-pull for what it is, by all means let the communication lines be open.  If you are expecting more, perhaps best to shut things down as you know you will be led down the path of hurt.   

Personally, I'd be so bitter at a woman who cheated on me to so much as even want to talk to her ever again.  So I admire your strength here for even considering her again.  I can't tell you what path to take, but I can say that from what you have shared about her she sounds more functional than the significant others of the rest of us.  Unfortunately, she still falls short of someone you can have a healthy relationship with. 

I guess I am going through similar with my GF.  I sometimes think she is right on the brink of a breakthrough, then I get reminders that this is all part of her decades long cycle.  she gets it, but then she doesn't.  And then I realize it's the same thing - she can't really say what makes her happy, what she wants out of life or why (other than to be married and have a child), she can't make decisions about anything. 

I'm sure if your ex would make a decision and say "I want this!" and go for it, it would make you feel a whole lot better.  Same goes with me.  She doesn't seem like she feels very strongly about anything she wants - so how do I know she really feels that strongly about me as opposed to me being the vehicle that meets her needs?

Well we met again last night after my workout.  I pulled away a little bit and she sensed that "now you're pulling away, I can understand why" and silly me agreed to meet with her for a walk.  She told me about Sunday night; how she spent the day with my replacements mom and then he called her crying so she agreed to go over and talk to him.  According to her, he was crying saying that he'd change whatever he needs to change in order to be with her.  That he doesn't understand her mood swings and said "I thought maybe bipolar but they change so quickly".  According to her, she let him know about BPD.  I don't think that she did; I know that he's questioning what is going on but I don't think that she spilled the beans to him.  I replied "well, now he's joined the dance".  The dance? She asked.  "Yes, the push/pull dance that I've been in with you.  He's developed a co-dependence as I have and now you have both of us as dance partners".  She commented that she's worried that I'll always "box her in to a category" meaning that I'll always be "psycho-analyzing" her.  I told her that as much as I may think that it is a mistake being with this guy, that is not my mistake to make but something for her to discover and learn from.  That I am a friend if she wants to talk but that I have my life to work on. 

Her tone changed as she felt me pulling away.  "I'm so proud of you.  You've gotten back in shape in an incredible fashion and you're moving ahead and I'm stuck".  She went on about how she is "trouble" and that I should move on.  I validated her emotions and tried to show her that she was not "worthless".  She said "I thank God for you" and that nobody has ever fought so hard for her, ever.  Sure; all the things that she knows that I want to hear to boost my ego.

I sent her an email with the problem solving suggestions as outlined in the book "Loving Someone with BPD" (www.amazon.com/Someone-Borderline-Personality-Disorder--Control-ebook/).  I suggested to her (after validation) that if she feels confused, stuck and lost that she apply these steps to solve the "problem". 

She at least took a look at the ebook that I "lent" her.  The title is "Stop Sabotaging your relationships, a 30-day DBT challenge for those with BPD".  She said "yes, that's what I've always done".  I asked her to share with me any other books that she's currently reading and she showed me a book about "Setting Boundaries" and she commented that she's never set healthy boundaries in her r/s's and I praised her for doing some work to identify those issues and to change them. 

After I got home, I received a flood of texts that basically validated my emotions and praised me for my recent achievements and thanking me for the "so many things you have taught me" and that she loves me, "always".

So now I do start to pull away.  No more running to her every time she calls (I did last night but that was to reinforce some points that I made earlier).  I need to see if she will actually begin doing some "work"; work on herself and the BPD (DBT's/therapy) and if she will resolve this triangulation by either setting me free or setting him free.  I'm not hugely optimistic that any of those things will happen and so I will gradually pull further and further away if they don't start to happen - and soon.  I will reward her with any progress that she does make however.  So we will see. 

I can type this with some strength (at the moment) but thanks to your guys' replies yesterday, I feel that I do have the strength to finally walk away should that need be the case.  Yes, I'll have the withdrawal depression that '2010' talks about (re-reading his posts too btw) but I'm at a point that there has got to be signs of progress going forward and if not, then I just need to throw up my hands, knowing that I did my very best; and call it a 'day'.

[In_n_Out]

goldylamont, I posted my reply before reading your post and no need to thank me for taking your advice.  I appreciate your advice and I know that you give it from the experience that you have with this and so it is very important advice for me, so thank you!

As I just posted, I'm not going to go straight to NC at this point.  I will become less and less involved however and as indicated by last night, the shark already sensed the blood in the water and pulled closer.  She about tackled me on her sofa last night before I left; with tears in her eyes, thanking me for "being me".  I want her to hit rock bottom; either she will feel that she's screwing things up and I'm starting to walk or she will sense that I'm abandoning her and she will walk from me (very likely).  I want her to identify the pattern that has always been in her life (we talked about that) and apply HER solution to this triangulation; either she leaves this other guy (and I need very sound proof that she has) or she leaves me.  She can't have both. 

Thanks again - keep any advice coming with no regard for what you may say - give it to me straight; I appreciate that.

[In_n_Out]

By the way, I do have a timeline for when I will pull away for good; mid April.  For months now, she has been planning on going on a cruise with my replacement and his family.  This has been a source of contention for a while now.  She says to me that she's never been on a cruise and just wants to have the opportunity to do that.  When pressed how she feels about going on a cruise with him and she's less than enthusiastic about that; but of course what she shows/tells me and what she shows/tells him is another thing.  She says that she's "stuck", that they can't get a refund and that she *has* to go.  Of course she doesn't *have* to do anything and we've talked about that.  She will go though, I'm 99% sure of that and once she does, that will get my ire to the point that I will block and wash my hands of it all. 

So, I guess I need some advice here.  How do I tell her that this will be a boundary that I will enforce; if she goes, then I walk.  Or do I?  Or do I say that if she goes, we will never be more than just friends - and say it in a very serious way.  Of course, that will tell her that she can go and that the door would still be open.  This is a tricky one.  If I do say (in effect) go and I'm gone, that will be perceived as an ultimatum and it will backfire.  Do I just sit back and see what her move is?  No need, I already know that she's going to go.  Guess I'm answering my own question   But, I'll take any and all advice that you all may have on this one.

[In_n_Out]

How about this exchange?

H: You seem like you're pulling away again

Me: I'm here as a friend for you <name>.  I'm not "pulling away" from anything because there is nothing for me to pull away from at this point.  I offer you my friendship but I'm telling you that when you go on that cruise with <him>, that will tell me that the value of the cruise is more important to you than anything that we may ever have beyond only friendship.  That throwing away any chance for us to work out things together is easier than telling the family of <him> that you are uncomfortable going on a cruise when you are unsure of things at this time, well that is very revealing to me and I will be sad but that will of been the choice that you have made and it will then leave me with no other choice but to say "good luck to you".

Something like that.

Or maybe something simpler:

Me: I'm sad.

Her: Why?

Me: Because you will be going on a cruise soon with a man that has taken my place and that will mean that we will never be a couple again.

Gauge her response and then take it from there... .

[In_n_Out]

Actually, reflecting on this all day today (and *that* needs to stop finally because it is affecting my work and other social activities) I don't know what the heck I'm thinking with this talk of us somehow getting back together.  Here's how things look from *her* perspective, and I'm afraid that I can see where she's coming from:

1. She would have to break up (for good) with <him> meaning that she pisses off his family, of whom his mother she is close to and *works with* so that will put a serious strain on her job.  Now granted, she's been there less than a year so we aren't talking a "career" job here, but seeing as how she cannot handle stress in the least, that is stress that she will not want to undertake.

2. She would have to explain to friends and family that a) she broke up with this guy (which may not be too difficult if I am to believe the things that she has said that her friend has said about him and knowing that she tells her mom *most* everything) but b) that not only did she break up with <him> but is now seeing <me> again.  She has indicated that her brother has already thrown out the remark "you aren't talking to *him* (me) again are you?".  So yes, I was in their graces at one point but after she painted me black her family did what they probably do with all of her r/s ex's; paint them black as well so that there's no conflict of interests.  So I'd have to somehow get painted "white" again.

3. This damn cruise thing that she would have to cancel out of, despite (she says) that <his> family can't get a refund at this point and given as mentioned that she can't "do" stress, that would be stress that she would not want to take on.

4. Um, BPD.  Let's not forget that she is dBPD and those traits would have to be addressed.  They can't be "cured" or stopped but perhaps learned to be dealt with better via DBT/CBT but that would mean her taking the initiative to start those steps (again) and so far she has not really done so aside from inquiring if she can obtain insurance to cover all/some of those costs.  I haven't asked or followed up on this in a couple of weeks so may ask just to get a gauge of how serious she is about doing this - which my guess is nothing has been done.

5-50. BPD deserves to fill up all of those rankings in and of itself.

So can I really be *just* her friend?  I'm mixed.  If I could really detach emotionally and just enjoy any time that we do spend together without finding myself wanting to reattach, then sure.  I have other female friends and there's no looming "will we date or not date" hanging over us.  Can I do that for this woman, a woman that I loved, lived with and was engaged to for nearly 4 years?  :)o I really need to answer that?  

So what do I do?  :)o I say "sorry, but I can't even be your friend because it's too difficult" and thus confirm her 'abandonment' fears and she slips completely backwards and I feel like crap for it.  And yes, I know, *I* can't "fix" her but I do feel that we've made some progress in this.  Maybe this is familiar territory for her and she's had the rescuing bf before and has been in this same position so she really has made *no* new self discoveries or perhaps she is really finding out things about herself via me and so there has been at least that progress.  Again though, I have to remind myself that if that is the case, then you would think that she would want to seek out a T and try and get this thing corrected once and for all (or at least dealt with).  Yet again, as "2010" would say, this has been her defense mechanism all of her life and is the way that she is programmed.  She may realize that things are different about her; she even thinks that she's 'broken', but she can't conceive of a scenario that has her acting in any different way.

I guess that I'm just going to stick to the original plan and slowly but surely slip away and let her make her own choices.  It's all that I can do really.  She will probably wind up resenting me or hating me for "abandoning" her but that will be the final chapter in which we can part ways for... . ever?  a while?  Hell if I know.  Now I sound as confused as she is about all of this... . um, FOG ya think?    At least I'm no longer a bawling, crying, sobbing mess just thinking of the prospect of her not being in my life and being with another man.  I've become a bit numbed to it all at this point because we've done the "final farewell" scene 4 or 5 times now.  But alas, I'm sure that once it *really* is down to that final farewell (yet again!), I will be a wreck.  That's when I'll lean even more on you guys, k?  

Edited for typo's and grammar. 

[maxsterling]

Interesting.  Personally, I think this should be one of those "secret" boundaries.  I say "secret" because if you tell her that she needs to choose the cruise or you, and she chooses to stay, how do you know she isn't just doing it for you and not doing it for herself or her future?  later, she may use this against you -"I cancelled this cruise just for you, and now I want xyz out of you!".

this is the same issue I face with boundaries.  I want evidence that she is doing things for own happiness and not just something to please me or motivate me to do something.  So if I was to tell my GF "I don't want to talk about marriage with you until you are able to take care of yourself and contribute to the household responsibilities" (a boundary).  If she heard that, she may then motivate to shower every day, take out the trash, clean, cook, and do dishes.  And she may continue on that path for a few months.  And then she will come back at me and say "see, I am doing this now, why won't you propose to me?"  But should she get what she wants (a marriage proposal) she very well may go back to her old ways.  I don't want to be in a relationship where she only does things to please or get what she wants out of me.  I want to be in a relationship with someone who sees they are doing those things for their own happiness.  And if I am open about my boundary, I will not know her motivation for change.  

I see this "cruise" as a similar trap.  It's reasonable to say "poop or get off the pot", but remember, you are dealing with a pwBPD who tends to use manipulation as a tool to get her needs met.  She already knows she needs to choose you or him, so if you force her to choose, she's probably going to come back and say "see, I chose you, now give me what I want."  And she won't get better.  Her problem is indecisiveness.  She wants someone to make the decision for her.  And you giving such a boundary, she sees an ultimatum, and now you have played into her game - she now sees you as making the decision for her.  

Believe me, I'm stuck in the same thing - I want to see evidence that she is capable for making decisions for her own life, because that shows me she is changing.  But she wants me to propose in order to lay down her life plan for her.  So, me proposing to her right now would only feed her indecisiveness.  

My advice is to bring up the cruise a few times, just to ask her if she is still going.  But don't tell her you will walk if she decides to go.  Maybe float the idea that you would be interested in taking a cruise someday. But leave the decision up to her.  And if she decides to go with her replacement, then tell her afterwards that it's clear she is not ready to make up her mind about her future, and you can't sit by and wait, and that you have chosen another path.  That's when you move on.

[In_n_Out]

My advice is to bring up the cruise a few times, just to ask her if she is still going.  But don't tell her you will walk if she decides to go.  Maybe float the idea that you would be interested in taking a cruise someday. But leave the decision up to her.  And if she decides to go with her replacement, then tell her afterwards that it's clear she is not ready to make up her mind about her future, and you can't sit by and wait, and that you have chosen another path.  That's when you move on.

Thanks Max, that's perfect.  As "pro-active" as I want to be to get her to realize the 'consequences' of her going, I cannot do that.  She has to make that choice and depending on her choice, I then react to that decision.  She's going to go, I have no doubt about that; she's always wanted to go on a cruise and she would go if Attila the Hun asked her.  The interesting twist is that <his> parents will be on the cruise as well so I don't know what their beliefs or morals are but does she room with him on the cruise or do they all room together?  How would that work?  She rooms with him, huh?  Ugh, ok, now I'm cringing.  So yeah, I let her make her choice and then walk once she's made it.  I have mentioned the cruise a few times and said "hell, you want to go on a cruise, I have a client that can get us a good rate on one" (we had even looked in to that at one point).  She gave that smile like "nice try".  She's stuck, she *has* to go in her mind and she will pony up the goods to keep the r/s with <him> secured.  I must remind myself of that when it is time to walk.

Thanks for the input Max. 

[Pecator]

oh I/O, I love you man. I totally took this walk your taking.

I will be direct, but is is out of concern and a warning from someone who is at the end of that path

My cautions are many.

First you are putting hope in the fact that she is listening to a friend with insight (you) and glanced through some books. Glean the articles here and remind yourself how complex and difficult treatment is for BPD. The only possible positive sign is if she was motivated enough to seek the right T and devote as much energy as she can into the difficult recovery before her. Even then you should be cautious about the success rate.

I would not put any "sign" terminology to the cruise issue. If she doesn't go, I think you know that it will most definitely come back on you. You know that will not be the end. My uBPDex raged a few times. She said regretful things. I blocked them out cause I knew they weren't real. However, the most hurtful attack still rings in my ears, "You took my (my replacement) away from me!" Yes she did say "my(name)."

Perhaps she does go and in BPD fashion, the trip doesn't meet her needs. She could come back from the trip having had a horrible time. The trip could very easily become a disaster showing her that she and your replacement could never be! She will come running back to you free of triangulation! How beautiful would that be?

I have read enough of your posts to see how clear and intelligently you are able to help others. So I have to believe you also know "Happily ever after" does not begin there.

Here is how my triangulation situation worked out.

According to my ex we were broken up when she decided to start hitting bars. “I wanted to see what it was like to go on a normal date again without all the pressure.” Now one look at email from those dates show a couple struggling through uncertain change with promises that we would get through it. No break up

Even though I knew nothing of BPD at the time, I already learned that facts would not help right then. I accepted the false pretense.

I wrote elsewhere about the stoplight where this happened. I pushed her to talk about what was bothering her. "I went out for coffee with someone else" Ever strong, ever compassionate, ever forgiving, loving unconditional, and a bit of self confidence, I asked, "How did it go?"

"Well, I really liked him. I never expected some random guy I met in a bar would actually be so nice. I wish he was a jerk. It would be so easy."

I didn't see it then, but note how to her, it was his fault for being nice not hers for being in a bar, giving her card, accepting and showing up for a date.

At this point I had some self-esteem left and could take a bit of competition. It couldn't possibly last given the depth of our love (wish I had the clarity of this board back then)

Soon, it was my fault for trying to compete. She painted me black and blocked me. Any expression of my love and devotion to her became a threat. You can't imagine how awful the email was in response to one with a very romantic description of her eyes.

She did however agree to attend two functions we were already committed to.

The first was a wedding with family very close to me. They loved my ex. I still clearly see her walking across the parking lot, she was amazing and gleaming. We had a wonderful night. I spun her around the dance floor like a queen. She counts this as one of the best nights of our history. Probably because she still texted my replacement from the bathroom every 15 mins.

The second was my going away party at my job. She grew very close to my people and a rare expression of emotion was shown. It was a very sweet afternoon. Very intimate and close.

Three hours later she called to tell me that very day that she couldn't do this anymore. She was going to follow the path of my replacement. I had been suffering from anxiety from a past trauma from before I met her, plus the anxiety of no job, no direction, no certainty now…two hours later I collapsed and was hospitalized. What was thought to be a heart issue was determined to be a nerve issue on the level of PTSD. She never came to the hospital.

When I went home, she did come by. I didn't move out of the bed. I asked if she would lay with me for just a second. I needed some peace and rest. Reluctantly she sat on the bed. I asked her to tell me she thought I could make it through this. That I wasn’t crazy. That what we HAD (not have) was good. She was so cold. Finally she, again reluctantly, gave me a hug and left within an hour.

Soon my therapist called. My ex called her and said she should deal with me and let me know that she (ex) was blocking me again and never wanted to hear from me.

I am a survivor. And this set me on an incredible path of healing. That path would have been a hell of a easier if I had known about BPD then and began to detach instead of doing this:

I knew any emotional intensity threatened her terribly. So after a while she began to respond to some sweet engaging but not intense notes. Soon we were back in phone contact.

Sorry, didn’t mean to make this my thread, but boy it is therapeutic to write this stuff down.

I/O this is where I so identify with your dance. I knew cracks in the replacement were emerging. She was opening up emotionally to me. We spoke daily on the phone. I became more like her friend helping her make an intelligent decisions (fully aware I wasn’t being completely objective). We went for walks, wine and an occasional lunch. It was fantastic every time I saw her. And it was leading to a very hard decision for her. To her credit, she recognized herself that talking to me every night before she fell asleep meant there was something wanting in the r/s with my replacement. I had him on the ropes.

She said she could not make an objective decision about my replacement, if I didn’t give her space. (looking back, she always gave him higher concern than me, because she new I would be less likely to leave her). I made a deal I would go NC for two weeks If she would then let me present her with my final argument for her to make a choice.

This was great fun, I brought flowers and chocolates (things the replacement hadn’t caught onto yet) a beautiful letter, and hear-tugging video with family pictures up to that point. We began sleeping together again. It was magical, beautiful, and amazing time

Great fun... . but can you see traits of three people suffering from the effects of BPD?

Now she was cheating on me with him, him with me, and I was party to the hurt because unlike my replacement, I knew everything that was going on. He had many advantages over me, novelty, stability, no baggage. I had one. I knew her deeply, good and bad, strengths and weaknesses. Again I knew nothing of BPD, but I was in my own intense therapy. I began to see my ex had no ability to make the choice. Even then, I knew her abandonment fears were strong. She had to chose between someone stable who could have the ability to leave her. Or someone who she knew would never leave her though his current instability could force him to. She would have liked it to last longer until she new my replacement would commit to her, but she was becoming overwhelmed by the shame this triangulation caused.

I too had to take responsibility for being an active player in this mess. It was one of the hardest decisions I had ever had to make, being I was still so wrapped in the trauma bond. I decided that if I truly loved her, I needed to end something she couldn’t.It was the best way out of a bad situation. I told her about it and asked if I could leave her with an early Christmas gift.

She called the night within hours of dropping it off. “No, this is the wrong choice. I could never imagine a Christmas without you.” And so on. This was the only time in our relationship she asked me to come back.

Wonderful, we made it. A week later we were at an exclusive Christmas Dinner and Dance (with tickets she bought for my replacement). I turned down a position offered in the States and we put our sights on building a life together here. I was on top of the world again.

But again, there were many lessons unlearned.

First, she crushed my replacement. I tried to reason with her. Let her know I have patience... . lets figure out how to let him down gently. She would not listen. The next day she went to him and broke it off clearly. He never saw it coming. He bought tickets to meet his parents over the holidays. I was shocked at how abrupt she was.

This part I have a question. She did grieve my replacement. Her boys said she cried and cried. I gave her a few days to do that. Is this seen in pwBPD? She has never grieved any of our break-ups.

Second, My replacement hung over our relationship in bad times. I mentioned above the hurtful statement. Every time she ran from me she wrote letters to my replacement trying to get him back.

Third, this last break-up was the most cruel and hurtful of all (and I was hospitalized after one). She justifies it by saying I am too manipulative. I illustrated this one in hope that you can see, even though I simply expressed my deep love for her, there was unintentional manipulation. Still, as I got healthier, I simply gave her space and she returned on her own. This claim of manipulation frees her from the responsibilities of the choices she made.

Last, she pursued the one man that could hurt me the most. She is aware that I know how much lying she had to do to get him back so fast and furious after crushing him so completely. She knows this is the last man I would ever try the triangulation thing again.

She also knows her kids will grow to love him and that is the final piece to push me out of the puzzle.


Again, sorry I spilled on your thread. But I wanted to tell the story of one person who took this path, and where it lead me.

I hope you stay safe.

[In_n_Out]

Wow Pecator, no apologies necessary.  We have very nearly the same stories. So mine just went over the deep end; it ended just a bit ago:

In an interesting twist of fate, a group of friends (guys) that were my best friends for years and that I had not seen for 6 years because of marriage, life, etc., reached out and contacted me out of the blue on facebook.  We chatted all day and one of the guys that I was really close friends with is single and trying to get back in to shape (we know how that is guys   So the point of this for me was there *will* be a life for me post pwBPDxgf.  I'm reconnecting with old friends and I won't be a loner sitting in my room broken hearted.  This gave me some strength today.

I'll try and be brief but I broke every taboo that there is for a pwBPD.  I basically laid out the ultimatum and of course it didn't go well at all.  But that's ok because she said the one thing that needed to be said when I told her that she has a very important decision to make; him or me "I'd have to want to be with you".  Boom, that says it all.  I said sorry that I put this pressure on you but I had to know and now I do. 

I came home and made dinner for me and my son.  Then a text "can you come outside to talk".  Damn, really?  So I go out and she hugs me, crying.  I again apologized and said but now I know and she shook her head and now suddenly she changes her tune, that is not all that she wants.  But, I pressed on because otherwise I'd be stuck in that holding pattern.  I said that there are ways out of being "stuck" like she feels that she is and I can tell her my ideas if she is interested.  She wasn't (of course).  So she's frustrated and now she turns it on me "this is what I was afraid of.  Why the 180?".  - Because I'm hurt.  I was hurt Sunday night.  Can you validate my emotions too, I am hurting!  "Well I'm hurt too".  Great, I validate that you are hurt by my 180 but I think that I've had more than a simple reasonable understanding and patience with all of this.  She's not budging and has the crossed arms while shaking her head.  Going downhill quickly.  I ask her to come closer and I put my arms around her.  Her arms are still crossed.  I uncross them and wrap them around me.  She's crying.  She says "you said that you would be my friend that I could go figure this out (meaning with <him> and if that didn't work out, who knows, maybe we would have a chance".  Uh no, I didn't say that but ok, let's play your game.  "Sure baby, go figure out what you need to figure out". 

So she got in her car and I said "see you around?".  Sure.  It's not a goodbye.  "Ok, coffee?  Walks around the square?".  Sure, but not for a few days.  "Ok then".  I rushed back inside to eat my dinner.

So that should get me painted black I would figure.  Now I just slip away.  I know, "block her!".  Yeah, I will.  Got to get that last bit of satisfaction with a wave of texts from her.  Sorry, I just need to do that.

Pecator, you're right.  This is a very serious disorder and there is no win-win situation in it at all.  Thanks for your story, it reinforces what I was feeling today.

[cosmonaut]

Hey, In_n_Out.  These posts of yours are fascinating, and I am reading all of them.  You have some keen insights and your writing displays a lot of introspection.  Keep posting.

That's great news about your reconnecting with old friends.  Having a support network will make this time much more bearable.  Do they know yet about the issues going on in your relationship with your ex?  I know it may not be something you feel comfortable bringing up yet with them.  Having someone to talk to about things is very helpful, though.  Of course, there is this board, but not quite the same as someone in person to talk with.

You are taking the turn of events with your ex extremely well.  I don't know that I would be as calm and patient as you are being.  So, awesome job there.  While sad (I too was hoping it could work out with you two), it isn't that surprising that she is unwilling to end the triangulation.  She was obviously needing that situation to continue, despite her claims of being so "confused" (perhaps true).  However, her behavior didn't seem to be showing any indication she was willing to end the triangle any time soon.  Behavior, not words, are what matter in dealing with a pwBPD (and anyone else either, actually).  My ex also told me so many things that are completely irreconcilable with her behavior.  I kept hanging on the words, and ignoring the behavior.  I can't do that in the future.  I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, of course.  You've said as much yourself.  I suppose I'm reinforcing it for my own sake as much as yours.  It is very hard to accept that all these wonderful words are rather empty.  Perhaps our pwBPD mean it at the time, but they can't seem to find the ability to follow through.  Or maybe their emotions just change that quickly.  I'm not sure.  Much of what went on inside my ex's head is still a mystery to me, despite how well I came to know her.  There were some walls that I was never able to get through - never able to get to the core of her.  Into the inner sanctum of her mind.  Perhaps, that's because there isn't one.  Many experts in BPD claim that pwBPD don't have a fully formed sense of self.  That is something I can't fully envision, but perhaps that explains why we can't ever seem to fully understand and know our exes.  Just typing that makes me very sad.

Deciding to block your ex and go NC is a decision only you can make.  I apologize if you felt that I was pressuring you to do something you really don't want to do.  You have every right to decide what you feel is best for you.  I was encouraging you to go NC, because that is the overwhelming advice on this forum.  I know it is a brutal decision to have to make.  In all honestly, I am not sure I would be able to cut my ex completely off if she was still communicating with me.  My situation is considerably easier than yours.  I have clearly been split black and am receiving the total silence treatment.  I suppose that may last forever.  I don't know.  None of this makes a bit of sense, anyway, and I need to just accept it that way it is.  Radical acceptance.

Keep posting, In_n_Out.  I feel a certain bond with you and Pecator and others here who are going through very similar sorts of experiences.  It helps to know that I'm not alone.  It is crazy how similar some of our experiences have been.  What a vile disorder BPD is!  I can't hardly think of a more insidious disease.  So much pointless suffering.  If this experience has taught me anything about this world, it is how critical it is that every child feel safe and loved and validated.

[In_n_Out]

I'm actually really good with it and that's because we've done the dramatic "last goodbye" a half dozen times already.  That and I realize that the BPD notwithstanding, she has ONE main objective in life right now and that is to get married.  She's never been married and she has this dream of a wedding where her dad walks her down the aisle.  He's aging and she has the HUGE clock ticking.  She doesn't really care too much with whom it is; it would of been me but I burned my *opportunity* when I had invalidated her precious little emotions one too many times so she quickly jumped to the next guy.  The BPD in her has accelerated that r/s and she was ready, set, go to marry him when thoughts of me popped back in to her head.  Her actions though will never match her words.  She quit on our r/s and cheated on me because she felt that we would never get married (we had become unengaged when she demonstrated that she isn't stable enough to hold a job and be responsible).  But now she has doubts about this guy because he is already questioning her sanity so she's a lost little child.  However, at the moment, he's her best shot for getting married so she will sacrifice her body, her emotions and her love to keep him reeled in just to see if he will stick around long enough (or if she can stick around long enough) to get married. 

There is no rationalizing with her (them).  Try as hard as I did to convince her to take the time to date people and some day find the right guy, fall in love gently and then move towards wedding plans; all while working on herself to get the therapy that she knows she needs... . that all falls on deaf ears because she is a woman on a mission to secure a man.  He has a POS house in a crappy neighborhood that she will readily admit that she doesn't care for; BUT it's A house and so she pictures herself putting her special little touches on it and perhaps, just perhaps it would be an ok house.  AND maybe, despite being 43 with various "female" issues, just perhaps she could get pregnant and have a child; something that I'm beyond wanting to do (been there, done that as I approach 50).  So love me as she may (or says she does), I could not be the one that she marries because of those reasons.

So in her brilliant little mind, she actually thinks that she can date and probably marry my replacement and if/when it fails, she can say "well, I've been married so NOW I can go to the man that I love and he said that he'll be there waiting for me".  She actually tried to justify that last night.

So while I haven't blocked her text/phone as of yet; I am determined to read anything that she sends and filter out the "I will always love you's" and read past the BS and have a laugh- but I will refuse to respond.  Why?  Because I still do care for her very much and I don't want to see her get hurt, despite the fact that her actions have hurt me and if my replacement knew about the emotional cheating that she's been doing, it would hurt him as well.  I honestly don't think that she really realizes that.  It's all about the mission and the BPD in her has the blinders on and has her programmed to believe that it is all about, and only about her emotions and what she wants.

I'm actually very good with this all right now.  Yeah, I'll hurt at times, I know it. 

I'm hoping to get together with one of my buddies this weekend.  He's a single part-time dad.  His ex-wife had some serious addiction and personality issues herself that we had talked about years ago so while he knows generally that I'm going through a messy breakup, he doesn't know the behind the scenes stuff.  But we will talk about that and have a few laughs over it all. 

[In_n_Out]

So I didn't get the usual morning text so I figured that this was it (ok, I know, it's not, and it isn't).  Just got her lunch break text:

I'm sitting at my spot next to the tower... . trying to let go of the Coldplay song that played just before I left for lunch.  I don't know the name of it, but it cuts my heart every time it comes on. And I can't stop it... . I don't hate you.  I love you... . whether you believe that or not.  I pray you never hate me... . I couldn't bare it.

It doesn't address the discussion last night or the past few weeks.  Doesn't validate me or my emotions or even recognize my thoughts on the matter.  So I got to thinking; discussions with her are always like this and you know what, her freakin' dad *warned* me when we first were dating that she was like that.  Of course I could tell right away that she was a "heads in the cloud" type of girl so I brushed off his comment but in really analyzing any discussions with her, I was always the "lead" and any response that she gave was in hyperbole or almost as if she were giving a soliloquy and I'm not even in the room; just like that text, as if she's reminding herself or convincing herself or what... . I'm not sure.  I asked her recently if she feels like she sees herself outside of her body and the reply was "no, I don't sense myself outside of my body like your BPD books say".  heh, oops! 

Anyhow, I didn't reply and won't.  I'll see how "intense" her messaging gets tonight, tomorrow and perhaps the next day.  I'm going to go back and analyze past text messages and emails and see if she ever actually addresses anything (besides pointing out fault with *my* behavior).  Actually, I will give her some credit; she does say of herself that she's a "pain in the a$$" and "difficult", "emotional" and a few other things so as we've established, she's very aware but just can't do anything about it.

Saga continues for a bit longer folks, grab some popcorn... . I'll keep you all posted. 

[maxsterling]

Interesting message from her.  Typical of what I see with my BPDgf.  Totally black/white (love/hate). See, she doesn't understand that you distancing yourself means you hate her.  And she doesn't understand that you can love her but not want to be with her.  There is absolutely no in-between in her mind - one either is completely infatuated, or completely hates.  I think your ex's text illustrates the error completely - you aren't responding, so that must mean you hate her. 

I've known my GF for just over a year.  And from what I have observed and what I know about her past, it seems your ex and my GF (and probably most BPD) have the same issue regarding doing things for themselves.  The healthy way to go about life is to do things to better yourself, and let other things fall in place around that.  For example, my ideas on dating have always been to be happy with myself first, be comfortable with me, love me, and then when things happen romantically, they happen.  I'm not dependent on those romantic things for my ultimate happiness.  My GF seems to have other approaches - men (and at times women) were a means to get what she wanted to make her happy (really less unhappy).  To this point in her life, it sounds like she's never been able to take more than a few months to herself to just work on herself.  She even told me the other day that her life has been chasing one thing after another, always to be disappointed.  Her long time friends think she is doing that now.  Your ex has the same issue - she wants marriage, possibly a child, feels time is running out, and her method of chasing hasn't paid off. So rather than solve her issue, she just decides to chase in a different direction.  But really, if she could learn to soothe herself, none of those other things would matter too much, and eventually the marriage/house thing could come for her. 

It's just so sad.  BPDs just seem to dig their own grave over and over.  They may realize they are in a hole, but the BPD in them tells them to dig the hole deeper in order to find their way out. 

[In_n_Out]

I think that you're absolutely correct in your assessment Max.  My ex's *only* ambition is to find a man that will take care of her.  The job that she has is only a job to pay bills as best she can (and she still needs help with those) so she has no career ambitions and never has (she admits to wanting to be a stay at home mommy and barring having a child, a part time worker at most while being supported by a husband), only a few friends, a cat (our cat), and her hobbies (gardening, photography when her camera isn't in hawk and writing (on facebook)).  

The kicker and what really ramps up my "rescue her" mode is her saying things like "you've taught me so much" and "I thank God for you" yet I turn blue in the face trying to "help" her to be more ambitious and to *date* properly and that there is no ticking time clock over her head and so on and so on but yes, I finally realize that it's not for me to *fix* her and even my *advice* will go mostly unheeded because that's just the way she's wired.

I mean it really is a full time job trying to care for these people; dancing around their emotions, having to self-filter everything you say and how you say it, trying to motivate them to stop posting selfies on facebook and perhaps do something for career enhancement.  It is really like watching an adult 5 yr old, isn't it?

[maxsterling]

The job that she has is only a job to pay bills as best she can (and she still needs help with those) so she has no career ambitions and never has (she admits to wanting to be a stay at home mommy and barring having a child, a part time worker at most while being supported by a husband), only a few friends, a cat (our cat), and her hobbies (gardening, photography when her camera isn't in hawk and writing (on facebook)).  

 

Well, at least she has hobbies.  Does she do these on her own, or are these hobbies she only does to pass the time or for the means of being social?  If I asked my girlfriend what she does for fun - it's an empty list.  Or, if I asked her what she wanted to do with her life career wise, also an empty list.  Of course, this wasn't the case when I met her.  A year ago, she was a teacher wanting to re-locate to my city and teach children.  it was her passion!  Of course, her previous job overseas was prestigious and rewarding (in reality, she hated it and was about to be fired).  She also liked to scuba dive (but that was just a means for her to chase men and give her something to do).  Same goes with the collage art she did, and her interest in films.  All in relation to the people she surrounded herself with.  Since she has been with me, she has shown no interest in any of the above, and only wants to spend time with me.

The kicker and what really ramps up my "rescue her" mode is her saying things like "you've taught me so much" and "I thank God for you" yet I turn blue in the face trying to "help" her to be more ambitious and to *date* properly and that there is no ticking time clock over her head and so on and so on but yes, I finally realize that it's not for me to *fix* her and even my *advice* will go mostly unheeded because that's just the way she's wired.

 

My guess is that you aren't the type of person that really wants to rescue her, or anyone else.  It's not like you seek out people to rescue because it gives you some kind of pleasure.  Am I right?  That's the way I am.  I'd prefer she take care of herself, and learn to take care of herself on her own.  I don't mind supporting her, but I don't want to do it for her.  I'm not a true codependent in that I don't want to be in this arrangement, I just don't know how to extract myself.  I also get moved by her statements, "You are my favorite;"  "I don't know what would happen if I didn't have you;"  "you saved my life."  That all sounds sweet, but add the BPD knowledge, and that's all very troubling.  I'm already trying to extract myself from feeling that her life is my responsibility, and these types of statements only send me backwards.  [/quote]

 It is really like watching an adult 5 yr old, isn't it?

Yep.  I tend to think the behavior is more of an early teenager mentality because she is so combative and because she expects everyone around her to simply make the world the way she wants it.  I would feel so much more secure about the future of this r/s if she could just find one thing she likes to do without me, and pursue it and stick with it for no other reason than it makes her happy.  I don't care if it is a job, a hobby, a friendship, or a TV show.  Just something that tells me who she is and what she likes.  How do I build a future with her when it seems like she changes what she likes to do every few months?

[In_n_Out]

Ok, this is just going to blow your all's mind.  Am I boring you with all this drama yet?  Sorry if I am and I'm sorry for you guys that didn't get closure with your expwBPD but this is as close to closure as one can get tonight.  Not trying to rub it in any of your all's faces... .

So I had a good day.  Sure, she would cross my mind but no sadness.  Just a shake of the head and a mumble of "my God what a mess she is!".  I came home, napped and then went to the gym as I do every night.  The workout was going good - chest and triceps night.  I was feeling strong and put up 385 on the bench and even snapped a pic for my son who was AWOL from the gym tonight:



I think that I mentioned that I'm in to bodybuilding and all that went to the wayside with this r/s and so it's good to be getting back to the levels that I was at previously.  Still a long ways to go but the improvements have been tremendous.  It's amazing how the body 'remembers' previous fitness levels so it's not like I'm starting brand new.  Anyways... .

So I'm over doing some flat bench fly's.  I have my headphones on and I'm rockin' a good workout when suddenly I smell *her* perfume that she always wears.  I sat up, dropped the dumbbells and instinctively muttered "f***!".  I turned around and my ex was standing there, 10 ft away.  She *never* works out in the gym and she wasn't there to do so tonight.  She was in her street clothes.  She often would just show up at the gym while I was working out because, well you all know how they fear that you're leaving them if gone too long. 

So I walk over to her and she has the sad puppy dog look on her face.  I'm in a great mood though; hell, a nearly 50 yr old just put up 385 on the bench so I'm feeling good.  She says "I'm sorry to bother you at the gym.  This is all very impressive (touching my arm).  I sat in my car for 15 minutes debating on whether I should reach out to you.  Whether I should come in or just text you but I didn't think that you would respond" (she's right).  I told her how just smelling her perfume freaked me out and I laughed to reassure her that it was "ok".  Very weird to just be standing there like that but it's ok.  I don't hate the woman.  So we have some small talk and I'm getting in my sets in between.  She says "I have two problems (only two?).  One is a small one and the other is bigger".  Ok, what's the small problem?  "I heard my Christmas ornaments fall over in the attic and I'm afraid that they're on the stair thing (attic access) and they'll all fall and break.  I can't reach them.".  Ok, so are you asking me if I will help you get those down for you?  "Yes, if it's not an inconvenience".  I see.  What's the 'big' problem?  "Everything else".  That I can't help you with.  "I know".

So I say that I'll be done working out at 8:30 and I can come over and help with that little problem.  I'm texting my buddy that I recently connected with (who just so happens to have an ex-wife that is bipolar) and he's warning me "don't do it, you need to go NC, you just need to take 6 mos of you time, no dating, etc, etc".  I think about it and I'm thinking he's absolutely right.  I can't be her rescuer any longer.  So I text her and say "I'm sorry but I don't think that it's appropriate that I go over to your house.  I am and will be a friend for you, but I don't feel comfortable going over to your house any longer.  <He/replacement> is taller than me, surly he can help you with this problem.  You chose him to be in your life and to have a r/s with so he needs to be the one to come help you from now on, ok?".  She replied "but I have something else that I want to tell you".  I told her that she can meet in the parking lot at the gym and we can talk.

So she shows up and walks towards my car and just stands in the middle of the parking.  Time to validate her so I walk over and hug her and tell her that it's ok.  She gets in my car and then she starts the waif version of emotionally dysregulating.  She says "remember how you said that you liked to text me during the day to tell me little things that you see or do?".  Yes.  "well today I felt that void of not hearing from you".  (good, worked as intended).  "I have to say this and I don't want it to come out wrong."  Ok, I'm listening to you.  "See, there, you're starting it already".  See, you're starting it already.  You feel my wall go up because now I am immediately going on the defense with your warning and that trips you and your wall goes up and this is how we used to always have arguments.  I want you to know that I am listening to you because I want to hear what you have to say but yes, I am guarded right now.  That is *my* emotion and I hope that you can validate that.  "yes, I can validate that.  What I wanted to say was that I was always afraid that you might go off on me.  You're such a calm person and you have that calm way about you and even though you never raised a hand to me, never grabbed me nor pushed me, I just always felt that you could explode one day".  (ok, this is really a test to see my response because she knows that I would never do any such thing to hurt her.  I never raised my voice to the woman).  "I understand that you have a fear of that.  I'm a big guy and I look intimidating.  I get that.  It's understandable that you would feel afraid should I somehow come at you".  (validate, validate, validate but this time it's not working).  "See, you're boxing me in and you're using your tactics that you've read about.  Did you have a therapy session today?".  (wow, throwing out all of the personal attacks just trying her damndest to set me off but inside I'm actually laughing... . this is really comical to me!).  "I'm not boxing, analyzing or doing anything but listening to you and understanding your emotions".  I reached out for her hand and she pulls it away but then relents.  She's crying.  I continue "I understand if you need to justify a reason why you must leave me.  Go ahead and get out all of these fears and emotions that you have if you must, I'm ok with that.  I'm not going to enter an argument with you over it because to be honest, all that I hear is the hurtful words that you said to me last night and that was when I asked if we could work things out you said 'I'd have to want to do that'.  So you see, you can say whatever it is that you like right now because I couldn't be hurt any more than those words that you spoke and the actions that you have taken since towards the end of our r/s".  (BOOM!). 

She paused, started bawling.  I lean over and hug her.  She grabs me tightly.  "I want to be a friend for you.  You must be very confused over your feelings but do you perhaps agree that your sole ambition right now is finding someone that will take care of you instead of working to become self-sufficient?".  Silence but still hugging me.  "I do love you and that will not fade.  You'll always have a piece of my heart but it's friends for us and that's all."  She's crying and some other validating points were made and I concluded it with "see, we can talk and come to some resolution now without it blowing up in to a big argument.  So the books have helped.  I have learned to be a better communicator for you.  Now let's go fix that little mess that you have in your attic".

So I followed her over to her house and sure enough, she had all of her totes of decorations fallen over on to the stairway access.  A couple of pieces fell and broke but I was able to get the rest down and then I told her that it's not good to stack things next to the stairway like that.  I retrieved an old piece of my plywood from woodworking projects out of her garage and put it down away from the stairs and relocating all of the stuff.  I then said that I need to go, it's late.  She ran up and give me a hug, sobbing again.  I told her that it's ok, that she'll be ok.  I'm ok.  Everything will be ok.  I walked out to my car with her standing on her porch.  I started my engine and said "I'll see you around".  She ran over to the car, reached in for another hug and said "thank you".  I said it's ok, glad that nothing more got broken and she said "no, I mean 'thank you!'".  Sure, that's what friends are for, right?  I drove off and surprisingly no string of texts from her about "love you this, love you that".  She knows that I'm moving on. 

I'll remain silent on the texting again tomorrow.  If she does start with the "I love you's" my response is going to be "I'm sorry but all that I hear is 'I'd have to want to do that'.  I won't hear anything else unless you say that you're sorry and want to get help for yourself and want to work on yourself and you prove to me that you will do that.  Otherwise, that is all that I'm hearing from you now". 

I feel great, that was perfect closure.  Sure, I'll be sad when the day comes that she is out of my life completely and for good but for now, if she wants to say 'hello' and (even as eerie as it is) wants to come stare at me during a workout, then hey, I'm cool with that.  No way I could want to enter a r/s with her again.  I was drained just going through that little emotional dysregulation episode and I now see how draining the years of that crap was for me.  No wonder all that I could do was eat, sleep and go to work with no time for friends, working out, my kids... . that is a full time caretakers position and honestly, it doesn't even pay that well. 

[goldylamont]

wow, that was a great post I/O! Loved it! I'm always wondering what my response will be when I run into my ex (she moved in a few houses down from me... . oddly, a year after we broke up and NC). Each day I'm pulling away from the issue and becoming more confident. But I really love how you handled this situation. Cool like tha Fonz!

[In_n_Out]

Thanks. 

What made it comical, but still difficult to deal with, was the very predictability of it.  When she said that she had something to tell me, my optimism went up but then she went on the attack with her emotional dysregulation.  I broke down what went on though as it was happening and was able to laugh inside (seriously!) while trying to bring her back down to her baseline:

1. The night before I admit it but I was basically begging her to reconsider for the last time.  She denied me that opportunity.

2. So I pulled away.  No texting during the day like she's been used to.

3. She feels me pulling away so she shows up at the gym.  In her mind, the sparks will fly and we'll go right back to this mode where she feels loved and needed by me on the in-between breaks with my replacement (triangulation).

4. I think about it and tell her, "no, you need to have your bf do that for you.  I am not comfortable going to your house to do it".  I'm pulling away again.  She feels that big ole' abandonment thing and because she's the waif type, she's got inward anger (depression) and it needs to release.

5.  We have the talk in the car and that anger comes out in the form of a personal attack "well I always felt that you could of gone off on me at any time".  No she didn't but she had just witnessed me working out and yes, I was lifting some fairly heavy weights and yes, I'm a pretty big guy so an on the spur attack was easy to predict... . "this guy could lift me with one hand and what he could do with me in that case is painful to think about"... . so that was her anger release.

If I was a street corner performer that made those little balloon animals and she had come to witness me doing those, her attack very well would of been "I was always afraid that you would pop a balloon next to my ear and I would go deaf forever". 

I mean the emotional level of that thought process is that of a young child.  It really is.  I see that now.  Her ability to handle and accept emotions have only developed to a certain point; that of a young girl. 

So I'm going to modify my response to her via text should she text me and that will be something along the lines of "<name>, I believe you when you say that you love me, and I have love for you as well but honestly, a friendship is all that we can have because of some choices that have been made.  As a friend, the best thing that I can offer you is if you were to say to me 'I know that there is something emotionally that needs work.  I understand that I have difficulties in controlling those emotions and that because of my emotions, my thought process and judgement becomes affected.  I know that I need help and I would like for you to help me because I'm afraid that I won't commit to doing it myself'.  You would then need to prove to me with your actions that you are committed to working with someone that is trained to help people get a better handle on their emotional responses.  Unless or until you say that, all that I will hear from you is 'I'd have to want to do that' and thus I will say to you again, <he> is the one that you need to turn to now as that is your choice that you've made."

[cosmonaut]

Way to go on setting and enforcing your boundaries, In_n_Out.     I think you've been handling the situation very well.  You've been gentle and validating, but also firm.  I'm realizing that this is how one has to deal with a pwBPD.  I've been reading that pwBPD need firm boundaries and actually respect you for it.  My T, who has experience in working with pwBPD, told me that pwBPD know you really love them when you can do that.  They need a parent - something they were denied in childhood.

On that same note, I understand your frustration about feeling like you are often babysitting a child in the relationship.  In retrospect, I can see that so much in my own relationship with my ex.  I didn't see it in those terms at the time, but I often was beside myself with frustration at how every little thing had to be such an ordeal.  Little things like making phone calls, paying bills, going to the store.  It's exhausting.  It was a full-time job taking care of her, as you said.  Her physical, and especially her emotional needs, were endless.  Like your ex, my ex was also very much a waif.  I didn't understand at the time that she really needed a parent figure to direct her and motivate her - I knew nothing about BPD.  I kept trying to get her to be more independent and pull herself up, and that, as you can imagine, went nowhere (yes, I wanted to "fix" her).  It just made things worse.  Despite all that, I still miss her terribly.  I do love her, and I can't deny that a part of me really needed to be needed.  Some of my core needs were definitely being met in our relationship.

Anyway, congrats again on achieving a degree of closure from your ex.  That is indeed a rare prize from a pwBPD.  You seem to be handling things very well.  Keep checking in a letting us know how you're doing.

[maxsterling]

In_n_out - today, you are my hero.  Seriously.  I'm glad you stood firm to this madness.  You will be better off in the long run, and she will be better off in the long run.  I can only hope to have the same clarity and strength with my GF some day to enforce needed boundaries.

Part of me just feel sad for your ex, though.  I really hope she can pull herself together, get the help she needs, and see the ways her behavior is standing in the way of healthy relationships.

[In_n_Out]

Yeah, this does suck for her and I feel so bad for her. I mean, read this lunchtime text that she sent:

I'm sorry... . so sorry for everything. For not being who and what I should have for u and for us and for me. Very sad, too.  Sick to my stomach sad. I will get professional help to brake (sic) the patterns... . I'm a big ball of hurt and anxiety... . I feel trapped... . in myself, circumstances, choices made. I tell you this not for you to fix it ... but so you know this is very hard for me. And I want to run. But I would only be running from myself. All the more reason to sell (? - typo, perhaps should be 'get' counseling asap.  That's all for now. You are on a good path. Let nothing or no one stop you. Love always, too"

Ugh, I mean pull on the heart strings!  I really feel for her and I know inside that she feels like crap for it all.  There's just no way to convince her that she's not as "stuck" as she thinks that she is.  She mentioned last night that she has not confided any of this to anybody and that she has nobody to talk to, so it's a pwBPD trying to solve the mess that she's gotten in all by herself.  I tried to tell her that <him> and his family are going to be hurt a lot more the longer the charade goes on before she does burst the bubble... . if that should happen (validation)... . and best to just be open up front.  Let <him> know that you're questioning yourself, the r/s and that you know that you need to get some help getting over your past r/s.  Something like that, anything, but what all that she can see is how stressful it would be to walk away now and so she is going to "punish" herself and just stay the course, wherever or whatever that course will be (married to 'Eeyore' as she calls him). 

Now, the other side of me has to pick all of this apart and she could be blowing smoke and playing me the fool all awhile she's got him hoisted on the pedestal and that very well could be but I'm going to go on instinct and say no, she really is hurting and she knows that she screwed up by bailing on us much too soon.

I did let her know however that it had to happen.  This was before I knew about BPD and maybe I would of figured it all out while still together but if not, we would of just "stayed the course" and things would of gotten miserable to the point that I'd be seeking a divorce (had we gotten married as planned). It took us breaking up for me to discover many new things about myself and I pray that she uses this as her "rock bottom" moment and does get that help.  I'm moving on.  I can't sit and wait to see if she gets the courage to worry about herself by unraveling the mess that she's in AND at the same time getting therapy.  I would be a fool to do so.  I'll keep on her though about the therapy.  Otherwise, she'll get in a "comfort zone", especially if <he> releases all of his boundaries to try and keep her happy and she won't do anything to get help.  We shall see, right? 

[maxsterling]

Seems the most frustrating and heartbreaking pwBPD is the one who knows they have work to do, but it's clear he/she lacks the tools or the foundation from where to start.  It's like they live in a universe where the laws of physics don't add up the same way, and 2+2 does not equal 4.  They know something is wrong, they know they want to fix it, but the solutions that are obvious to you and me just may not be physically possible in their brain.  It's just so heartbreaking to see, because you know their pattern will repeat, and they know it on some level, but still do it. 

If you can, perhaps the best role is as a supportive friend, with contact every few weeks.  That assumes you are strong enough to keep distance boundaries, and that assumes she is comfortable enough with that to not pine for more and not paint you black.  I bet she feels like she has nobody consistent now, and is reaching out to you.  And maybe you can keep the friendship conversations about how she is doing, her goals in life, how you are doing, etc, and avoid topics relating to relationships.  Let her find her own solutions to these issues, because you very well know the more she leans on you, the less she will take care of herself.  Giving her any kind of ear to her relationship problems only makes her core problem worse. 

And by all means, detach, and move on yourself.  Go on with your life, and try to avoid even having her in a "maybe someday" category.  If she is ever in that "maybe someday" category, that's unhealthy for you, and unhealthy for any future relationships you find yourself in.  If you have hopes or expectations that she changes and come back to you - probably best to go the NC route.   Just my opinion, of course.  Any path seems like it would take tremendous strength. 

[In_n_Out]

Thanks again Max,

I had a good workout last night with no odd visits.  No texts, no phone calls, no emails.  Thursday is her Friday from work so she probably spent the night with my replacement and you know what?  I'm good with that.  Coming out of the FOG this morning and I said to myself, "I/O, she isn't 'stuck' doing something that she doesn't want to do with a guy that she doesn't want to be with because she's still in love with you... . no, she's doing *exactly* what she *wants* to do because she has shown no sign of wanting to do something differently".  And that's true.  She's a professional at playing the victim card... . "I can't love him because I still love you... . ".  Well B/S because you have made zero attempt at working on herself.  She talks the game of doing so but until or unless I have proof that she's doing one single thing for herself other than finding the next source of financial/emotional/sexual "income" then why waste my effort?  

I'm at a point at this moment that I don't need NC.  Again, I don't hate the woman and I have some pity that she has the disorder but *at the moment* I'm strong enough to realize that anything beyond a friendship with her is a big drain on ME.  Now if I start to get the twinge of "I miss her.  She used to do this... . and she's done that... . and she said this... . " then I will need to block her for my own protection.

I have a great support system now.  If you're not religious, then count it up to "fate" but I truly believe that God put a good friend of mine back in to my life; a buddy that divorced 7 years ago from a pwBipolar and he hasn't had a serious gf since because he was so devastated from the ordeal.  Now I'm not looking to go in to "hermit mode" but he's got a great point in being firm that I work on ME for a good while before throwing it out there on the line again.  If someone comes along per chance and there's a SLOW dating cycle that ensues, great.  Otherwise, it's work on ME time fellas.  

Edit:  Somebody just posted something on facebook that I will adopt as my motto:

"Never push a loyal person to the point where they no longer care".  Very nice.

[In_n_Out]

Well put my nose in the corner because I was a bad boy.

I had a date tonight.  Kind of a spur of the moment thing.  An attractive girl that is 15 yrs my junior messaged me and we wound up on a date.  Went out to a nice dinner.  She's a pretty girl but I guess the age or something wasn't working for her about me.  Got the "oh, that's my friend texting.  She said that she may need a ride and would text only if she couldn't find another".  You know the routine.  I've used it myself actually.  So the date ended after only a couple of hours and it was only 10 p.m.

Came home and that triggered thoughts of the ex.  Oh yes, trying to date much too soon.  She had come over last night (the ex that is) and she was an emotional mess.  She had been at her girlfriends house (she says) watching sad movies drinking wine.  She wasn't drunk but she's started to drink wine every night to numb the pain and her drinking is not good (we know why). Things started out ok, hugging in my driveway but then she started to dysregulate emotionally.  I couldn't take it so I told her a semi-truth about me and one of my good friends who happens to be an attractive female that my ex is quite jealous of.  Something that involved me and her doing something together. That set her off and she left with the fake smile that she wears when she's hurting inside but doesn't want others to know (but I know).  She was crying inside.  I know, you're asking "why are you doing this again after what you just posted?".  You're asking me?   

So I sent her a text this morning seeing if she wanted to meet me at the park for a walk.  She replied that she can't do this any more and to go have a good time with <friend> and that she's a hypocrit for even getting jealous and she knows that.  "Go have fun and be free".  Sort of a farewell text.  I sent a couple of replies but she didn't respond.  My jog in the park was full of "what a screwed up chick!".  You know the routine.

So, busted date and I'm sitting home and now I'm suddenly sad.  I shouldn't of done it but I sent the ex a text; something to the effect of "I'm feeling lost, numb.  Like I've lost my best friend".  Well two texts later the third one says "I'm here.  At your door".  Well, a couple of hours in the bedroom and I just followed her to make sure that she made it.  She had just poured a glass of wine when my text came (so she says).

She had the pendulum swinging in full effect tonight.  She'd go from me to him, him to me.  "I wished that would of done more of this (foreplay)".  Won't go in to details obviously but the chat afterwards was about her being "f'd up" (emotionally).  "I blew it".  "I'm no good".   All the stuff that I've read about where they feel like they are broken.  You can't say "you're not broken"; that invalidates their feeling. Silly stuff that you have to actually think so hard for the proper response.  "Seems that you feel like things are a mess for you." 

She talked about this damn cruise and how she and <his> family all got together to go over the itinerary, and how she was had all these mixed feelings between that and me.  She said that they all got in his truck (the 4 of them) to see if they'll be able to make the long drive to the port of departure.  She said that she freaked out (clostrophobia) and panicked and so now they're going to rent a car because of it (and she feels bad for that).  You can't reason with them though "we're going through all of this; you're numbing your pain with alcohol and crying yourself to sleep every night thinking of me and 'what if we could be back together' because you're afraid of letting them down if you back out of a damn cruise?".  "What will they think when you leave him some time after the cruise (like I know that she will)... . that you used them to get a cruise".  No reply.  She knows I'm right but it doesn't quite "register". 

So part of me says, if she wants to come over for a roll... . works perfectly for me.  Let him handle the financial burdon and let him babysit her emotions.  But I'm not that kind of guy so yeah, I feel bad for it.  He's probably a nice guy but he just has no idea.  Well, according to her, he knows *something* is amiss with her but he's sucked in like we all were/are.  Like I still am.  I'm as bad as she is though.  As much as I know the right thing to do... . go NC and RUN... . it won't "register" with me.  Just like it all won't register with her though she knows the right answer as well (RUN from both of us and to nobody would be her best solution).  I thought earlier today when I was ticked about not getting a reply; "she is toxic for me.  She's not healthy physically (doesn't work out, doesn't eat), emotionally (duh), mentally, spiritually.  There's nothing 'healthy' about her".  Yet it won't "register" with me.  Or I can't go.  Co-dependence.  FOG.  FOO.  Whatever you want to say about it. 

Round and round it goes, where it stops... . nobody knows.

[In_n_Out]

Well, I had been holding on.  We have spent time together each night and all of last weekend.  Yesterday though, her "mood" changed.  She was work and her text messages went from being very loving to being very cordial so it was obvious that she had spoken to my replacement recently.  The change is so obvious when she's done that.  When I first see her each night, she won't let me kiss her nor hold hands with her.  By the end of the night, we're making out.  So she's coming from just having had a talk with him (and sure, she feels guilt) to then not giving a damn about him and just living in the moment.

Well after work yesterday she stopped by. We spent 40 minutes together at a store and she was "too tired" from work.  So she went home but text and called because the cat was stuck in the tree.  I thought that she was wanting me to come over, but again "too tired".  That was about 11:00 and so I told her that I was a bit disappointed because Thursday is her Friday night and I'm on vacation so we could of done something together but that I understood.

I sent her a text last night while she slept; "As you awake to this beautiful day, feel that you are loved because I do love you so dearly". 

I was at the gym this morning and she sent a text "Thank you I/O.  Do something special for you today and I will do the same. Always, no matter. Very much."

So that tells me that she's got plans to not see me today and that hurts because we could share the day together.  Long story short, I told her that she "emptied my love bucket and to go have a good day".  I stopped responding to her "how did I empty your love bucket?".  She showed up at the gym with tears in her eyes.  I was distant.  I don't remember what I said exactly but I do recall saying that I just can't do the "push-pull" thing any more.  She kissed me and left.

She sent a text later "I'm so sorry... . for everything. You deserve a whole healed heart... . I love you so much. I know my actions may not seem to reflect this... but I do. I'm so weary... . just trying to keep on keeping on.  I have to go. Please... . please have a good day... . and know that I carry you in my heart. I have to honor a commitment I made for today... . and won't be home til tonight. I will look up at the stars and smile for u.".

I haven't heard from her since.

So after a month of seeing her every night/day but one; all the "I love you so much".  The other night her reading the book on "Loving Someone with BPD" and asking for me to order her a copy.  Her asking what she could do to get out of her "situation" (with him) and now she's spent the day/evening with him.  Sure, she's telling him all the same stuff that she's been telling me and he's up on that pedestal tonight. 

I keep the texting line of communication open only until I hear from her again (tonight, probably tomorrow, maybe never) so that I can say simply that there's nothing to discuss really.  Her decision is clear and for my healing to begin I would like to have a few items back and I'll return hers and then I will need to move on; without any further communication.

A real pisser.  We were "that" close... . or so she made it seem.  But as we know, it's all about her having her emotions feed and what she will sacrifice in order for that to happen.  That's not the type of person that I need in my life- I need to recover my sense of worth and the little bit of pride that I can scrape up off the floor and then go through the ultimate heartache but eventual healing.

Thanks to all that participated in this thread.  I'll hang around over in the "Leaving" board mostly but will be curious to see how others are fairing here in this board. 

I think that the most telling thing about the "success" rate with pwBPD is the "success" stories thread... . all of 5 pages while there's 1000's of other pages about the headache, heartache and hurt that a pwBPD has caused them.  Not a very good ratio for those still hoping.

[cosmonaut]

I've been following your story, I/O, and I'm actually very sad that it has concluded this way.  I was hoping that things would somehow work out.  You certainly made every effort to accomplish that.  I'm sorry, man.  I know you tried.  She's just able to have a healthy, mature relationship.  She's just not ready to face her demons.  You gave it your all and there's no shame in that.

I think you are so correct that the odds of having a successful relationship with a pwBPD are quite poor.  Ultimately, it's something that we, as nons, have no real control over.  It takes a very special pwBPD to be able to put in the work necessary to achieve the stability for a relationship to be sustained.  It's hard going, and my hat's off to any pwBPD that can take that road.

Keep posting and let us know how you're doing.  I'm trying to detach myself.  It's very hard.  Maybe the hardest thing I've ever done.  Hang in there, man.  Lots of stories here of people that are much happier on the other side of this.  We'll get there too.

[In_n_Out]

They just don't consider others feelings at all, do they?

Text just came in:

"Baby?"  no reply

"Where are you?"  no reply

"You're probably out. I hope you're smiling... . "  This I had to reply to "I am neither".

"I'm headed home and promise to look up at the stars and smile for you."

Are you kidding me?  My replies:

There's no need, please don't.  I mean really.  You spend the day with my replacement and a text is supposed to make it OK for me?  I've been in agony all day.

"No... . I understand.  I'll leave you alone... . I'm sorry"

Me:

Is it wrong for me to be upset after the incredible month that we've spent together and all that was said and done?  And you're telling me one thing and no doubt him another.  Let's just make arrangements (so swap possessions held).  You didn't think that this would happen or you just didn't care? Didn't care at all what I would be going through.  What a let down!

----

Am I totally over-reacting here?  If you've read all the other messages, you know what's been said and done.  I don't think that I'm over-reacting.  Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Pecator]

Damn I/O,

I shared cosmo's hope following your story. I have a special akin to you both as I think we share similar situations.

I have begun copying and pasting things I find helpful here into a document so I can refer to them quickly when I am down. You have many quotes there.

While similar, we are not exact. I would love if my ex would allow even a single conversation. As messed up as it all is, I would rather have false platitudes than silence. What a messed up disorder this is.

You are most definitely not overreacting. In a normal relationship, you would most definitely be under-reacting! However, BPD is so F'ed.

I humbly remind you of something you already know. She will not hear what you said the way you are saying it.

"baby" and "I hope you are smiling" She just doesn't get it. In her world that somehow makes sense.

Even if your words do get through and touches some real part of her, it won't last long and her coping mechanisms will take over. She will detach from your feelings and rationalize it irrationally.

"I understand. I'll leave you alone…I'm sorry." Lots of "I" statements here. If she meant it, there would be more focus on your feelings and "we" statements.

pwBPD just don't seem to be able to connect in emotionally difficult ways. They seem to have walls to guard them from uneasy emotions. So your last text, most definitely not overreacting. But my guess is that it won't be heard.

If that is where you are at, head over to the "leaving" side. I have been dipping my toe there as well. It would be nice to be able to follow a trail blazer like you!

Peace in wherever your path takes you

[an0ught]

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