Scratching my head again

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Thanks for the input Nick and I/O, as every little bit certainly helps in days like this.

Yesterday all day I was feeling off -like something shifted.  The weekend made me realize this is still the same BPD cycle - blow up at him and give him ultimatums before he does it to me.  And my thought was initially to listen, but later to wonder if I can really play that game, and instead focus on the inevitable - that no matter what I do she will be uncomfortable and the r/s will fail - and prepare myself for that.  So that's what I was thinking about - and then this self-loathing stuff about the guinea pig and I realized she was really hurting with her self-image to the point I started worrying about her self-harming and contemplating suicide again.  I naturally assumed I would be dealing with a very down and disregulated person after work, and prepared myself for that.

After work we had plans to go to a Passover Seder at her Father's house.  She has her father painted mostly black, so this also put some fear in me that the evening could be rough.  I fully expected an uncomfortable 45-minute car ride to his house.  She came to pick me up from work, and surprisingly she was smiling and happy to see me.  And the car ride to his house was awesome.  And the evening went really well, and we had a good ride home.  Afterwards, I noticed there was something wrong with the guinea pig, and we talked about taking it to the vet today. 

And the result on me - more confusion.  A day spent thinking that I need to detach more and prepare for the end of the relationship, to feeling like things might be life and death again, to feeling like things are still workable and that I should give more effort.  This morning?  I just don't know.  I'll do my best to just enjoy today.

One thing from the car ride to the Seder last night - she was talking about how last summer she had contemplated getting an apartment closer to her job at the time.  To be perfectly honest, back then I felt the space would have been good for me, and while I know it would have felt weird and I would miss her, I also saw her living separately as a means of easier detachment and easier to break things off and go NC should it get ugly again.   My T was telling me I need to get her to move out.  My friends were telling me the same thing.  That I need my own space, and she does too.  I tried to encourage her and help her look at the positives - that it could bring excitement back to our relationship, that she would have a pool and workout room, and that we could sleep over at each others places and have dates and whatnot.  And the thought crossed my mind multiple times that I knew if she moved out, the r/s would not last much longer.  And maybe she knew that, too, and that's why she decided to stay. But last night she told me that had she been living there when she got really depressed last summer, she thinks she would have attempted suicide.   That's scary.  So here I am trying to detach, trying to not feel like her emotions or well being are not my responsibility, and then her basically saying I saved her life.  That's a lot of concrete on my shoulders today.  It's probably true, too.  Thinking about it, I'm quite sure that if I wasn't in the picture she would have attempted suicide again.  And I know that's not my responsibility - but that's a hard one to detach from. 

[maxsterling]

Thanks for the input Nick and I/O, as every little bit certainly helps in days like this.

Yesterday all day I was feeling off -like something shifted.  The weekend made me realize this is still the same BPD cycle - blow up at him and give him ultimatums before he does it to me.  And my thought was initially to listen, but later to wonder if I can really play that game, and instead focus on the inevitable - that no matter what I do she will be uncomfortable and the r/s will fail - and prepare myself for that.  So that's what I was thinking about - and then this self-loathing stuff about the guinea pig and I realized she was really hurting with her self-image to the point I started worrying about her self-harming and contemplating suicide again.  I naturally assumed I would be dealing with a very down and disregulated person after work, and prepared myself for that.

After work we had plans to go to a Passover Seder at her Father's house.  She has her father painted mostly black, so this also put some fear in me that the evening could be rough.  I fully expected an uncomfortable 45-minute car ride to his house.  She came to pick me up from work, and surprisingly she was smiling and happy to see me.  And the car ride to his house was awesome.  And the evening went really well, and we had a good ride home.  Afterwards, I noticed there was something wrong with the guinea pig, and we talked about taking it to the vet today. 

And the result on me - more confusion.  A day spent thinking that I need to detach more and prepare for the end of the relationship, to feeling like things might be life and death again, to feeling like things are still workable and that I should give more effort.  This morning?  I just don't know.  I'll do my best to just enjoy today.

One thing from the car ride to the Seder last night - she was talking about how last summer she had contemplated getting an apartment closer to her job at the time.  To be perfectly honest, back then I felt the space would have been good for me, and while I know it would have felt weird and I would miss her, I also saw her living separately as a means of easier detachment and easier to break things off and go NC should it get ugly again.   My T was telling me I need to get her to move out.  My friends were telling me the same thing.  That I need my own space, and she does too.  I tried to encourage her and help her look at the positives - that it could bring excitement back to our relationship, that she would have a pool and workout room, and that we could sleep over at each others places and have dates and whatnot.  And the thought crossed my mind multiple times that I knew if she moved out, the r/s would not last much longer.  And maybe she knew that, too, and that's why she decided to stay. But last night she told me that had she been living there when she got really depressed last summer, she thinks she would have attempted suicide.   That's scary.  So here I am trying to detach, trying to not feel like her emotions or well being are not my responsibility, and then her basically saying I saved her life.  That's a lot of concrete on my shoulders today.  It's probably true, too.  Thinking about it, I'm quite sure that if I wasn't in the picture she would have attempted suicide again.  And I know that's not my responsibility - but that's a hard one to detach from. 

[maxsterling]

An update - potential disregulations loom:

1) I found out I will likely have to travel overnight for work sometime in May.  She hasn't spent a night apart from me since last August, and the time before that was over a year ago.  A might apart would be good for me.  Her?  She's already worried about it even though I haven't told her.  How do I know?  She can barely stand it if I go to the store without her, and she already tells me that she doesn't know what she will do when I have to travel for my job.  I don't know if the best approach is to tell her about it now, or wait until I know the exact dates. 

2)  The guinea pig is sick - has some kind of bump on her back.  We will go to the vet this afternoon.  If bad news - could lead to bad things. 

Boy, I really wish I could get to a place where everyday things aren't a big deal.  "I have to go out of town for work." "when?"  "May XYZ, for one night."  "Okay, be safe, and have a good time.  Maybe I will go out with my friends that night." 

But it won't be like that.  And here I am having to think about how to approach her for what should be a routine thing that is happening more than a month from now.  I've learned tools, and some are coming second nature to me - but it's still a lot of work and no guarantees.  For those of you who got married and had kids before the FOG got too thick - I can see the urge to keep trying.  But since I am not married, I still go back to the question -":)o I want to live like this forever?"  I have no strings attached but emotional - I could end it now.

[NickM]

Max,

I didn't have time to post earlier today but thought of your situation throughout the day.

My pondering was that it seemed you were 'happy' in the relationship if you could have a stable and happy partner. This is exactly where I was until I realised, that shouldn't be the goal, that should be the foundation.

I know what you mean about the fear of business trips. My boss would tell me and my true self was excited for the opportunity and then the fear kicked in of "how/when do I break the news?". Sadly the joy of the trip was always muted. Even on any trip I was either working or on FaceTime connection to her so she could see I was behaving (despite having been and demonstrating complete loyalty).

What really caught my attention was when I was back in my home country and speaking to one of my very best friends. He was telling me his wife had said to him "It's been a really tough year for you , why don't you take a flight and hangout with Nick for a boys weekend".

I was amazed. And they have two  young children! Here is a woman who recognizes her husbands need for some downtime and willingly offers it to him. Max, wouldn't that be nice?

If you're anything like me, you'd never ask but you'd always patiently hope someone would recognize your needs.

I hope you can convince her to move out Max, it would be a healthy place to establish your boundaries if you want to stay or otherwise a safe distance if you decide to leave.

Tell us more about your needs ? The ones that start with 'wouldn't it be nice if... . '

Nick

[maxsterling]

Nick, that would be a dream scenario!  To actually encourage me to go out and spend an evening with friends, because she knows it would be good for me.  There was one instance when she did say, "You should go out with your friends more."  A head-scratcher, because when I do she will guilt trip me into staying home or coming home early.  Of course, if the situation were reversed and she wanted to spend the day with a friend, I would say "Great!  Have fun!"  I would feel that way because I love her and I want her to enjoy her life, because I find independence attractive, and because I think it is healthy.  Of course I would also be glad for the free time myself.  And since she doesn't seem to encourage that from me, it makes me question the basis of her "love" as more of a "need" or "addiction" rather than a genuine want from me to have the best in life. 

So, "wouldn't it be nice if... . "

... . I had at least one night out a week, with friends just for a few hours, with her encouragement.

... . I had a partner who didn't make daily negative comments about herself.

... . I had time and money again for my hobbies and interests.

... . I didn't have to sit and constantly ponder about how to gain back the part of myself that I have apparently lost (by making lists like this )

BTW, we took the guinea pig to the vet yesterday afternoon.  That went well, the guinea pig just has mites.  And GF did not freak out, disregulate, or somehow blame me.

... .

[maxsterling]

Yesterday was couples T, an exhausting and head-scratching session that I could use feedback on.  I've been feeling antsy lately and have been thinking it's time to start really bringing stuff up, setting boundaries, and quit protecting her.  But then last weekend happened, where she exclaimed the T is always taking my side.  That made me pessimistic that she will be less receptive in the session than she was before, and made me feel T is now pointless.  And then Monday, the self-loathing that made me worry she may be heading down the suicide thought path again. Tuesday and Wednesday she seemed to be feeling better.  So by yesterday, I was living in thick FOG - I want to seriously lay out boundaries and issues so that events of last weekend don't happen again, or so that she at least knows how worn out I am by that constant pressure.  But if she's feeling down on herself, I don't want to pick at that wound and have to deal with that suicide threat again.  Any talk of the r/s issues tends to send her down that path.  And to add more confusion, on the way to the T office, GF was remarking how she hates people and is so irritable.

So, the session went as they usually do - T starts by talking to GF for awhile about GFs moods, upcoming job, etc.  I think T is pretty clued into GFs BPD and issues, and is patiently and covertly working with her on that.  I get the impression that T knows the R/S can't be healthy unless GF (as well as me) get individual issues resolved.  GF was obviously not enthusiastic to talk about this.  I then changed the subject to he guinea pig, and how us taking the guinea pig to the vet and getting a new cage made me feel hopeful because it was a current issue that we solved together and worked together at.  T agreed, it demonstrated some "parenting" and positive r/s skills. 

The conversation moved to my sister in law coming to visit, to which I think we both said went well, and then on to GF meeting my sister.  And then my GF said she wanted to talk about something else that didn't have to go with meeting my family.  My heart raced.  And of course she brought up the whole thing about rings and marriage and her September ultimatum for me.  I let her talk, basically her disregulating a little right there in session, with her claiming I am leading her on, claiming she doesn't trust me to commit, claiming I am making excuses.  Of course, she used a whole bunch of invalidation, a few curse words, a raised voice, and some sarcasm.  I just sat there - extremely sad and just stared off into space while my GF just basically laid out ne no-win situation for me:  If I don't propose to her by September, she leaves. If I propose, she will feel like she manipulated me.  If I buy an expensive ring for her, she will feel like I spent too much.  If I buy a cheap ring, she will feel like I don't value her.  No win no matter what I do.  I really felt like poop at that moment, with the only "win" I could see would be without her - a breakup.  I did say that it's fair for her to set a September BOUNDARY (emphasizing the word boundary) because she is free to pursue her own goals in life.  She then said that "I've been talking to my aunt and my aunt says 'why give him to September - I wouldn't give him that long.'"  So now I know where this recent pressure is coming from.  I've never met this aunt - but right then I wished I could send that aunt a letter that just says F-U.  And the money stuff about the ring really hurt - badly.  For me it digs at a REAL sore spot.  It reminds me of an NPD ex girlfriend who emotionally abused me over issues similar - how I didn't own "nice" things, didn't have a ton of money, was working below my potential, etc.  And it reminds me of my childhood - my parents had plenty of money, but were frugal.  And we lived in a richer neighborhood where parents gave their kids cars for their 16th birthdays and wore designer clothes, and I was given a hard time by classmates for not having those things, which turned into shame that took awhile to grow out of.  I feel like I am living in that again, and now feel shame that I can't provide for my GF, despite that she does nothing for herself or nothing for me and I know that shame is illogical.

T challenged her on this - challenged her to basically be mindful of today.  Challenged her that these are her expectations and roadblocks she is creating for herself.  Implied that she is creating an impossible situation.  GF then countered with a bunch of "I can't help it, this is how I am.  I have feelings and emotions and they are valid and can't be turned off."  Uggh.  This almost sounded like she has been reading too much BPD literature, and now is convinced that she doesn't need to work on herself, she just needs to get others to accept her.  It's like she knows that us nons need to work on validating, so now she expects it. 

At this point - I just felt trapped in the no-win, and really sad.  I made sure to let that known that I was hurt.  I said that I felt things were progressing well, I was feeling more secure, and then she went back to the pressure over the marriage thing again.  I mentioned that I had just shut the car door after meeting my sister and her first words were "Ok - now I've met your sister, can we get married now?"  I told her how much that hurt to hear that, instead of words about being nice to meet my sister or something to say about her.  The T kept challenging her that these are things that both of us need to work on, and challenged her to be thankful for what she has today.  I then mentioned that I can't let myself live a life where I am not focused on today - that I will get depressed and be in a bad place.

After the session as we were walking out, my GF asked, "are you mad at me?"  I said no, that I don't get mad at people.  She then said that she "really liked meeting my sister" - to which made me think she doesn't understand why I felt hurt.  And then she started crying uncontrollably, saying "I love you, and I'm sorry I'm so damaged."

So - my thoughts after all that:

- I'm glad I was able to articulate that I felt hurt by this marriage pressure.  That's a big step for me.

- I'm glad that my GF expressed all that in front of the T so the T can witness directly what is going on.

- This pretty much confirms to me what I was thinking about her not really wanting to work on herself.  That she wants "radical acceptance" without having to really act any different.  She admits she has BPD and issues, but really just wants acceptance for her issues and doesn't want to own them herself. 

- I'm not sure what to make of her crying afterwards.  I think she was embarrassed by her behavior, because as we were lying in bed she said "I feel bad - I did a lot of bad things today."

- I'm not sure how I feel or where I go from here.  I think I need to try and put my feelings aside and do pros/cons and just keep that to myself for now.  We have another session Monday night, and I think we need to discuss the money issue.  I'm hurt over that.

[NickM]

Hey Max,

I haven't worked out how to grab your words as quotes but let me respond with my thoughts. Hope it helps.

" it's time to start really bringing stuff up, setting boundaries, and quit protecting her"

I wonder if you see how many times you do 'protect her' in your writings. Have a read through many of your posts. I think you are just trying to be fair and don't want to feel as though you are painting her black.

"I don't want to pick at that wound and have to deal with that suicide threat again.  Any talk of the r/s issues tends to send her down that path"

Her inability to handle the conversation without having an extremely imbalanced emotional response is the problem. You should be able to discuss any topic as you need.

"She then said that "I've been talking to my aunt and my aunt says 'why give him to September - I wouldn't give him that long.'"  So now I know where this recent pressure is coming from"

Max, here's a good example of you protecting her. Her giving you pressure to propose is her decision, regardless of the Aunt. We can't validate the Aunt is real or is adding pressure BUT let's say she is... . Surely it is your GF's responsibility to respect your needs and communicate these back to her Aunt.

"And the money stuff about the ring really hurt - badly.  For me it digs at a REAL sore spot."

Money comes and goes. I know so many couples that when they met don't have a lot of money to spend on their wedding/rings/1st house etc but by the 10th-20th anniversary the guy can really make up for it because he has benefited from the relationship and found career success along the way. A true partner wants you, not the ring. Or at least they want the ring for what it symbolises, not what it costs. One of my previous exGF parents didn't like me because they thought my job wasn't great. About 18 months after I ended that r/s I got a really great job offer; the ex's Mum called me to congratulate me... . the only times I heard from her since we broke up. Your current wealth is just a moment in time; things will change.

"after the session as we were walking out, my GF asked, "are you mad at me?"  I said no, that I don't get mad at people"

Max, I feel you missed an opportunity to be more honest here.

"I'm not sure what to make of her crying afterwards"

I'd say you are right, she recognised she treats you poorly and instead of taking responsibility and being willing to discuss it, she had an emotional reaction designed to bring you closer to her.

Keep sharing Max Sorry if it feels like I am being unfair to you.

[In_n_Out]

I'd say you are right, she recognised she treats you poorly and instead of taking responsibility and being willing to discuss it, she had an emotional reaction designed to bring you closer to her.

I think *this* is what drives us non's absolutely bat$hit crazy... . just trying to have a *rational* conversation.  If the conversation gets too deep or focused on issues at hand that involve them, then they dysregulate and you have to walk on eggshells to try and bring them back to their baseline.  Fail at that and they rage or sob or clam up.  And without doubt, they begin to throw back on to you: "well you have problems too"... . "well why did you do/say that?"... . "you're trying to hurt me".  Etc.  And then their little shame/guilt pendulum swings the other way and it's "I'm a failure"... . "I'm broken"... . "Everybody hates me" and now you're trying to ease their guilt trip so that they don't go make some very poor and unhealthy decisions while being emotionally dysregulated.  You get frustrated and then something slips out that invalidates them and the crap hits the fan.  I let slip out once "you're helpless".  Oh lordy, that now comes up every time.  I'm most cruelist, meanest man on Earth for dare saying she's "helpless".  That is like painting a "666" on her forehead.

But when they're calm and you're doing something that *they* like to do (it's never what you want to do)... . then they can be giddy and bonding and just wonderful to be around.  We went and took pictures in the flowers.  Ok, that's fine with me.  Put on a pretty dress and I'll take your picture.  My ex was singing in the car (I have it on video), smiling, happy and it was a wonderful day.  I'm blocked on her facebook but she sends a screenshot of a picture of her that I took and all of the comments below it (including my replacements) and she's telling me how she's "looking back at the one that I love".  Meanwhile, her facebook world thinks that her girlfriend took the picture.  That brings up a discussion and within minutes, I'm walking on eggshells and trying to avoid being overly defensive about my needs and concerns.  It's like dating a 12 year old little girl emotionally.

We should organize a "non's" cruise or something and just sit and swap "war" stories for a week.  That would probably be the most therapeutic thing ever.  Their "fragile little eggshell minds"... . that's all that I can keep thinking right now.

[maxsterling]

Nick - that's all great advice, thanks.  I agree - I can go for a walk or bike ride and just start thinking of how convoluted things have become and how many ways I try to "protect" her without noticing it.  Your comment about missing the opportunity when she asked if I was mad is a perfect example.  I do this all the time, recognize I do this all the time, but still do it.  The truth is - I'm not mad.  But she understands what "mad" means, and by *her* definition, I am mad (but to me I am just sad and frustrated and confused - to me mad means I have emotions that make me want to retaliate - and I rarely feel that way).  So maybe I should just say, "yes, I am mad," and see where that goes.

I/O - LOL about the cruise.  There really should be "support groups" in the community for people who deal with pwBPD.  I go to Alanon/Naranon meetings, and it's pretty clear that a large percentage of addicts have BPD or BPD-like behaviors.  So that's been a good place to trade "war stories".  Your description of how an attempt at a "rational" conversation with a pwBPD goes is pretty spot on.  And the "helpless" thing - oh brother!  She calls herself that -  Helpless, Worthless. But if someone else calls her that?  LOOK OUT.  The first rage I experienced with her was when I tried to say her constant negative attitude was depressing me.  That began a two-day rage that ended with the police being called.  And the same thing here - she complains that I never want to talk about marriage.  And a good reason why is because every time we have, she deregulates.  And what happened last weekend?  I wanted her opinion on a style of ring I had been looking at - and she then OBSESSED for a week, then disregulated.  Make me not want to bring it up again.  So if I don't talk about marriage - she's mad.  If I do - she obsesses until she's mad. 

I like this T, though.  Oh, and regarding the aunt - yeah it's my GF's responsibility to handle that.  But I can see why she doesn't - she has BPD which means she has a weak identity, so she leans on the opinion of whoever she is currently identifying with, and that is the person who is currently validating her.  She claims every time she talks to the aunt, the aunt asks her if I have proposed yet. She identifies with this Aunt because the aunt had a wild childhood as well.  She really needs to have better boundaries with the aunt.  Before the aunt, she identified with her friend (who is now painted black).  The friend is a single mother.  So what did GF want to talk about?  Yep. before she met me, she was considering getting artificially inseminated so that she could be a single mother, too, and not have to deal with a r/s.  She said this friend was the only person who encouraged her in this. 

[maxsterling]

Today is another mind-bender. She starts a new job a week from this upcoming Monday.  She has some disability money, so she is not completely broke.  If I was in that position, I would look at it as one more week of freedom knowing a paycheck would be coming soon.  I'd use my time to relax, shop, hobbies, go for walks or hikes or whatever.  But not her.  Yesterday she sat at home and watched TV and kept texting about how excruciating it was.  She said she felt like she was dying or rotting.  I just can't relate.  She can do whatever she wants - read, artwork, exercise, go out for lunch, clean, bake, whatever.  Yet she sat at home, and then complained that sitting at home was making her depressed.  She complained about wanting to turn her brain off.  She said she knows she should do this or that but she is a failure for not doing anything. 

I just can't relate, don't know how to respond, don't know how to encourage, yet am tired from hearing this.  I try to detach.  Last night as we laid in bed, she hugged me and begged me never to leave her and wanted me to promise I will never leave her.  And remember just last Sunday she was telling me she would have to break it off because I had not proposed to her.  "I hate you; don't leave" - BPD at its rawest.

This morning she told me she had to be up for a Dr. appointment.  She sat as I drank my coffee, saying she has nothing to do all day and she is worried about spending the day alone with nothing to do.  She said, "If this goes on I will get sick again (sick meaning suicidal)" and "I feel like blowing my brains out."  Oh dear.  Normally, I do not want to give her chores or tasks - but after hearing that I asked, "would you like me to give you things to do for me?"  She didn't know, and we joked about it a little bit, about me "punishing" her if she didn't get her chores done. 

As I sat down at my work desk, she was already sending me messages "I really don't know how I will get through the day" "I feel like my brain is going to explode".  Stuck in my mind was worry about the comments she said earlier.  So, I asked if she would like to come have lunch with me.  She agreed.  But then she said a friend called her and asked her to hang out today.  So, she is now out with a friend - and that's a very, very good thing. 

This weekend a friend of mine who moved away is back in town.  This is not a good friend, and probably not someone my GF would like to meet, but I'd like to at least stop by and say hi to her for an hour.  There's a party tonight at another friend's house.  I'd like to use this as an opportunity to test my assertiveness in doing something that I want to do, but after the "blowing my brains out" and "I don't want to be alone" language, perhaps it best to meet up with the friend at another time (such as tomorrow morning while GF is at an AA meeting).

[NickM]

Max,

How are you?

Hope you're doing okay.

[sweetheart]

I have been told by my dBPDh psychiatrist here in the UK, that this disorder like other severe and enduring mental health problems does cause "brain damage/injury" in that with every dysregulation, there is evidence that is seen on scans that the pwBPD never fully returns to their previous level of overall functioning. I will evidence this info, I just can't find the info at the moment.

If my dBPDh is anything to go by after each period of sustained emotional dysegulation, he never has a light bulb moment and links anything to his diagnosis. He has had his diagnosis nearly 20 years, although he will not enter in to formal therapy, he knows this is a life long diagnosis, but there is no real awareness of this translating itself into doing things differently the next time.

The other piece of information we were given by his P is that depending on when the serious dysregulation started (in my dBPDh case when he was 11 took his first serious overdose at 14) this can severely impair overall functioning and make treatment outcomes more difficult. This links to the differences between high and low functioning pwBPD.

[maxsterling]

Well, this weekend was rough, but nothing new.  Rough because I feel like I have an endless list of things to do in an addition to simply relaxing and having some time for myself, and yet getting very little done and having no down time.  Friday began with her realizing the plans she had for Friday night weren't actually until the following week.  Darn.  And her Saturday morning plans were also cancelled, darn.  I was counting on those two hours for some alone time. 

Friday after work she was extra needy.  She had a depressing day shopping.  And it wasn't just "needy", it was the "I hate myself and want to blow my brains out" talk again.  Oh, and hitting herself in the forehead.  So, rather than go visit a friend, I stayed home.  Saturday was more of the same.  Lots of self-loathing talk and minor disregulations about money.  Lots of  "I hate this, I hate that."  Sunday we did go out for a picnic, and had a decent time, but still laced with the same self-loathing comments:  "I don't understand why you want to be with me."  "I am a terrible person"  "I can't shut my brain off".  On top of that, I got roundabout indications that she was obsessing about marriage and money again:  ":)o you know what higher paying job you want within your agency?"  ":)o you know how much your brother's wedding cost?"  "With such a large family, would you want to invite all of them if we got married?"

I'm starting to realize that her "obsessing" is just a disregulation in disguise.  It's preventing her from being functional and rational in the same way her screaming arguments are.  It's just that she has learned the screaming is going to get her nowhere.  The obsession over marriage and money is letting raw, irrational emotions control her moods.  And it just makes me feel on edge and uncomfortable.  I'm okay with dealing with this occasionally, but her obsessing over money every day causes me to worry - I try everything I can to detach, but it's difficult. 

And I'd like to try a couple hours timeout and refresh - but her self harm type talk makes me hesitate.  Ultimately, I know I will have to do that and express how much her obsessing is wearing me out.  But it's not like she can change.  She talks like she wants to keep busy in other ways so as to not obsess.  But nothing works.

So how am I doing?  Thankful to be at work today, even though I am completely unproductive.

[Take2]

I have been told by my dBPDh psychiatrist here in the UK, that this disorder like other severe and enduring mental health problems does cause "brain damage/injury" in that with every dysregulation, there is evidence that is seen on scans that the pwBPD never fully returns to their previous level of overall functioning. I will evidence this info, I just can't find the info at the moment.

itself into doing things differently the next time.

That's very interesting to read.  I'd like to know where that info came from if you can find it?  It certainly feels like that from my experience with my exBPDbf, but if it were the case, wouldn't those who get older who have BPD be much more apparent to everyone? 

[maxsterling]

Now I am dealing with "will she or won't she" take the job.  Not that it matters to me, I just want her to be happy.  She is supposed to start Monday.  The HR department contacted her yesterday, asked for more info from her on a previous job.  This is part of the background check.  And of course, my GF really doesn't have the info, because it was an overseas job. So, according to my GF, there is a chance she won't be allowed to work this job.  And she's decided she's already been rubbed the wrong way by this place, so she is considering just backing out.  I tried to validate her and let her know she has the freedom to do that.

Last night was couples T, and the first thing the T asked was "what have you two been doing that wasn't focused on the future?"  Aha! I didn't even have to bring it up - the T is already recognizing this is a big issue.  T spent most of the hour discussing with my GF the pros and cons of taking this job.  That's okay by me - because having a T talk to my GF about this means 1) I don't have to; 2) I can observe how the T interacts with GF, and that helps me when I have to deal with volatile situations in the future; 3) the T obviously is recognizing that if GF doesn't solve her issues, then relationship issues don't matter.  By the end of the session, GF had pretty much decided to not take the job, and that she had deeper issues than just the HR headaches.  GF brought up past jobs, how preparing her job history over the past 10 years brought up a lot of pain of having so many jobs where she only lasted a few weeks, how she feels like a failure for getting paid less at this job than the last ones, for not using her master's degree... .   And she brought up how this issue has soured her mood and made her difficult to live with.  Yet, still no apology to me - not that I really expect one, but it would help. 

But, she also created a "no-win" situation for herself - that she feels "terror" about money now, that she won't be able to enjoy the job because she will always feel underpaid, yet if she refuses the job she will still worry about money.  So, either way, she worries about money, and that is going to prevent her from emotionally moving forward. 

When we got back in the car, GF said she felt so sure about not taking the job while in session, but now she got outside feels so unsure again.  And that kinda spoiled the rest of the evening for her, as she could not stop thinking about it. 

Similar happened to me, too.  While in session, just listening to GF talk about things with the T made me feel hopeful and very much in love with this woman and at peace with the progress both she and I have made.  But, as I laid in bed, all I could thing about is how really nothing has changed, and this r/s is still too much work, and I still worry about her reactions too much.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm late to this thread... . I was going to comment that your gf's dysregulations aren't as bad because you've been using some of the tools here... . which take away some fuel for the dysregulations, and also get you out of the line of fire quickly when that isn't enough.

That the change has been in you, not in her, although she may find room to change based on how you have changed... . but this will take a while.

Not sure if the latest round of dysregulations are better compared to where they started or not.

But, as I laid in bed, all I could thing about is how really nothing has changed, and this r/s is still too much work, and I still worry about her reactions too much.

I still think that *you* have changed some, and may change some more.

The battle of not worrying about her reactions is a tough one... . but well worth fighting. You will get there. And once you get there she will figure out if she can be there with you or not.

What else can you do to take care of yourself?

 GK

[WisdomSeeker]

MaxSterling, in my humble opinion, you are a great person. Thank you for all that you do in helping others. You deserve better. It's time for you to be your best friend. Best wishes.

[In_n_Out]

I agree with Grey Kitty; I know that there has been a great deal of change in *me* since learning of BPD and how to interact with it.  I'll post one last message in my thread later but my ex(?) did one of the most endearing things for me overnight for my birthday.  I'm simply speechless with what she did (wonderful act) and it's *those* actions that keep me wanting to fight the fight for her true love.

[maxsterling]

GreyKitty - that's a good way to think about it.  And I think you are right - much of the change may have to do with me and my reactions.  As an example, my GF was telling me the other day she was having a conversation with her aunt*, and the aunt asked my GF if she and I ever get into fights or arguments.  My GF said, "not that much anymore.  Actually, I get mad at him and he just listens and doesn't argue back, and then I feel silly and ashamed for starting an argument."  To that the aunt said, "wow, that sounds like the way I am with my husband, too."

Obviously, I am using the tools correctly sometimes, and it has cut out some of the more heated conflict.  I still JADE at times, especially when she is really on the attack or I feel she is going into a self-harm mode.  I'm impressed with myself of how I handled the situation with my SIL being late the other day "I understand why you are frustrated, it's frustrating when people are late.  But I have no control over her schedule, and I can't let something like this alter what I want to do.  I am going to cook dinner anyway, and if she is late or doesn't show up, that's her issue if we have already eaten."  And then I continued cooking dinner, and just let my GF rant for a bit. 

*this is the same aunt who whenever she talks to my GF will make comments about the r/s, ask if I have proposed, telling my GF that I won't propose unless she gets a job, etc.  I've never met this woman, but from what I know, it sounds like she may have a PD as well.

[Grey Kitty]

Ya, the aunt sounds like somewhere between a bad influence and a toxic influence. Just be glad she isn't more involved your life directly 

Obviously, I am using the tools correctly sometimes, and it has cut out some of the more heated conflict.  I still JADE at times, especially when she is really on the attack or I feel she is going into a self-harm mode.

Yeah, we all JADE at times. We also notice it and stop earlier, sometimes even before we start. It will get better with practice... . and this is a wonderful life skill to work on--JADEing doesn't work well with anybody, it just fails more spectacularly with a pwBPD. It is a process, you are learning and improving at it. Keep on working on it!

I hated the self-harm thing too. I would draw a distinction between self-harm and suicidal thoughts. Self-harm isn't actually an attempt at suicide or even necessarily a step in that direction. It is !@#$!@# hard to watch, and I've had some boundaries regarding how much of it I will watch. I've held her down to stop her from hitting herself (I know, this has its own problems). I've told her that if she doesn't stop I'll call 911, with my phone in my hand, ready to press send and meaning it 100%. It is just tough to deal with. (Note: If she is self-aware about it, I've heard the recommendation of squeezing ice cubes in your hand, HARD. It does hurt, so it meets the "need" to feel self-harm, but does no permanent damage, unlike most other versions of self-injury)

In the case of true suicidal thoughts, that is a good reason to call for help--911 if nothing else is possible, but there are local or national suicide hotlines which can provide excellent assistance, and isn't a provocative/drastic an option. Absolutely take any expressions about suicide seriously. These workshops are helpful.

Depression and Suicidal Ideation

TOOLS: Dealing with threats of Suicide and Suicide Attempts

I'm impressed with myself of how I handled the situation with my SIL being late the other day "I understand why you are frustrated, it's frustrating when people are late.  But I have no control over her schedule, and I can't let something like this alter what I want to do.  I am going to cook dinner anyway, and if she is late or doesn't show up, that's her issue if we have already eaten."  And then I continued cooking dinner, and just let my GF rant for a bit.

Agreed--that sounds like a fantastic job of dealing with a difficult situation!

Meanwhile... . you didn't answer my last question--What you can do to take care of yourself better? <prod> <prod>

[maxsterling]

Well, I rode my bike to work today.  That helps calm me.  And I've been doing my best at working on hobbies, which I tend to get into more when I am stressed.  I could use more time to myself, though, and I think that is what I should work towards.  A bike ride by myself, or a long walk.  Or just an evening watching TV by myself.  I haven't had much of that in a long time, and that is what I used to do to unwind.  I was getting to a point where I was feeling more comfortable saying, "I'm going to do go out tonight to watch a game, I'll be back about 9:30."  She would get a little perturbed, but usually okay.  But with her mood recently, I feel like now is not the time to push that route.  She told me last week that had she been living alone last summer, she probably would have attempted suicide, but since she was living with me she hung on long enough to go to the hospital.  That made me think about my mindset last summer - of forcing her to get her own place after her job had started - I was living in hell and was trying to work my way out of this situation.  And with her recent statement I think all is swimming in my brain again that her life and death is my responsibility (logically I know it isn't, but emotionally right now it is hard to detach from that).  And that makes it hard for me to tell her that I want to spend time doing something on my own, just for an hour or two. 

[maxsterling]

Today she officially turned down the job that was to begin Monday.  I had a feeling if she started working she would burn out in a few weeks.  That's what always happens (and she even admits to this).  So, I don't have any issue with her refusing the job.  But, she showed me the email she was going to send to the HR department - and basically it was "Sorry, I refuse the job, but blame you for that."  I told her she does not owe this place any explanation, and should just keep it short, "sorry, I have chosen to take a different path with my life.  Thanks for the offer."   She asked why not explain why she is refusing, and I said, "it's not important, plus it opens up the opportunity for them to argue back at you."  I hope she toned it down.  But she did reply to me and said something to the affect of, "I guess I also realized there were other issues with me, too."  In other words, maybe she realized that it's not fair to blame them when really it was her own insecurity and anxiety why she refused. 

The frustrating thing is she has working tied up with marriage and with being happy.  I view life that none of the other things can happen (or are even important) if one is not happy first.  So yesterday after she decided to refuse this job, she spent the rest of the day online applying for more jobs.     I know, makes no sense to decide you aren't ready to handle the stress of working and refuse a job you have only to start frantically looking for another job.  But that fits in the same line as wanting to trade in the car she has that she claims she can't afford for a newer car with almost twice the monthly payment.   

And after she refused the job, she sent me depressing messages, saying she hasn't left the house all day, that she is depressed every day, asking me when it will get better.  She said she is going to an AA meeting - that leaves an hour just for me.  That's good.  I'm sure I will spend some of that time cooking dinner for the both of us.

[NickM]

Max,

Look out for yourself mate!

Is this really the life you want? Why don't you deserve better?

I still in your words that you care for her greatly, I am doubtful though that you will ever see her situation improve long term unless she takes more responsibility. Some people clean toilets for a living just so they have a shot at feeding their kids and they do this with little complaints.

Let's stop talking about her and start talking about you. Tell us more about what you are getting from this relationship? what makes you stay?

[SweetCharlotte]

I'm really disappointed. She seems to have refused the job for no good reason. The pay is low, but with her history she needs to start small. To me her refusal to work would be a boundary.

[In_n_Out]

I remember telling my ex(?) when she said "it doesn't pay as much as the last job"... . Yeah, but it's paying much more than what you're making right now (nothing). 

I would be worried about her sitting around the house all day with nothing to occupy her mind other than dreaming of an escape (marriage where YOU fully support her FOREVER) and fixations between depression and self harm.  That is a big difference between our pwBPD's.  Mine LOVES her solitaire time and she LOVES to go out in her yard and work the flowerbeds, mow (she mows every week, sometimes twice a week... . she's pretty darn anal about it).  She loves to walk around Goodwill/Salvation Army and spend her $10 self-imposed limit.  What kind of exercise is she getting Max?  Does she go for walks or jogs?  Maybe join a gym together.  Get active and do OUTDOOR activities together and see if she can branch out to doing things on her own.  Walking in the park, ANYTHING.  Get out of the damn house and away from the computer/TV.  Help her to find something that she likes to do that doesn't involve you so that you can go find your sanity and she can find a happy sanctuary that is outside and healthy.  Buy a pair of bikes.  Something like that... .

[maxsterling]

I/O, completely agree.  That was the biggest plus I saw of her taking this job, or well ANY job.  When we sat in the T office last with with my GF saying how she doesn't feel like she can work, T started pressing her on what else she would do with her time.  T actually asked "What do you *want* to do with your life?"  That was (of course) a stumper.   Through talking GF and T decided that taking a class to regain her teacher certification would be good, as would additional therapies or volunteer work.  I'd *love* to see her have a hobby, or even just good friends she spends time with. 

Exercise?  None.  Every T she goes to tells her to get out, get exercise.  She says she is not motivated.  She will go for walks if I go, and she wants me to force her (so she can put the blame on me for her lack of exercise).  We've gone on very short hikes the past two sundays, but previous attempts at hiking I will turn around after she starts complains of her aches and pains after 15 minutes.  Bike rides - impossible.  She has a back injury from childhood abuse that makes sitting on a bike seat pretty painful.  I would be up for getting her started with something by going along with her the first few times - but it solves nothing unless she starts doing something on her own.  That's my biggest issue is her being dependent on me for everything, so me exercising with her I fear would just be enabling that dependent/mirroring behavior. 

Last night I was putting away dishes after dinner.  She told me to stop, that she should do it because she did nothing all day and should have done it during the day.  Then she said "I wished you would tell me to do the dishes, why won't you tell me to do things?  It may help."  I replied simply, "because you are an adult."  She said she felt a little hurt by that comment.  I can see how, but I think in the long run it will be good for her to hear that.   

[In_n_Out]

Grab a copy of that "Loving someone with BPD".  It talks about helping with decision making and motivation.  You might pick up something from it for the $10 or so that you spend on it.

[Grey Kitty]

Watch what you are saying about maxsterling's wife. I've got no doubt that she is doing non-helpful things that make her feel worse. HOWEVER, none of us here can change her behavior.

The helpful change is in how maxsterling takes care of himself and responds to her. And max, what helps here is if you accept that this is how your wife is right now.

Validate how she is feeling. Not that her actions are wise, or correct. She already knows she's messed up--telling her that is just invalidating, and most importantly, it doesn't help her change the behaviors!

Last night I was putting away dishes after dinner.  She told me to stop, that she should do it because she did nothing all day and should have done it during the day.  Then she said "I wished you would tell me to do the dishes, why won't you tell me to do things?  It may help."  I replied simply, "because you are an adult."  She said she felt a little hurt by that comment.

This was an opportunity--Saying something about how hard it must be to feel that worthless would be a good chance for validation.

[seeking balance]

Grab a copy of that "Loving someone with BPD".  It talks about helping with decision making and motivation.  You might pick up something from it for the $10 or so that you spend on it.

Max, If I recall correctly - this book was recommended in a different thread to you and you were going to pick it up - did you?

[maxsterling]

Grey Kitty -  Yep, I know that was an opportunity for validation.  I've validated her on this issue before (probably daily).  I try not to say "you should do this, or have you tried that?"  It just does her no good to hear that, because she knows.  Normally, I just say, "I'm sorry you are feeling so down and unmotivated, depression is a hard thing to deal with.  I'll support you through this for whatever makes you happier."  Last night I was just tired and frustrated, tired of validating and then dealing with the same thing the next day.  And I think you are right that I need to just take care of myself - do what feels good for me and let her deal with that.  If I keep thinking of things we can do together, or things I can do to motivate her, the focus is on her and not on me.  She needs to figure out how to motivate herself.

As for the book - I checked at the library, I couldn't find it...   And at the time the book was suggested, money was so tight (living with a pwBPD can be financially exhausting, too) I couldn't even justify the 10 bucks. I probably can now, and I desperately want to get that book.   I wonder what she would say if she saw it laying around the house.

[In_n_Out]

My ex read from mine and asked me to buy her a copy, which I did.  I'm sure that she hasn't cracked it open since though so maybe I can get it from her and send it to you (yes, I'm being sarcastic).