Formation leader update

[formflier]

If you don't have a therapist-assisted period of controlled contact before moving back home, how will you be able to assess your wife's state of mind and reaction to recent events?

The therapist could also assist both of you in formulating new terms of engagement. (Like maybe some agreements about letting formflier sleep peacefully through each night. )

I fear if you jump right back in, you're possibly going to have to jump right back out, disrupting everyone's lives further. So if you are going to make one good shot, making it in a reasoned way and with the help of a professional seems the most powerful method to me.

Agreed! 

Especially the sleep part.  That did get better as I did limits... didn't egage etc etc.

Even before I knew about BPD... . I had sort of figured out that arguing back full force in middle of the night was not helpful.  Those are the incidents... I think... . that were most troublesome... . fearful... etc etc  for my kids.

However... . when this comes up I need to be careful and listen to what they have to say and not suggest what they are fearful of.

Back to the plan.  My uBPDw is not much of a plan maker... . also doesn't stick to one very good.  Me... I'm the opposite.  The "normal" for our marriage is that if something needs to happen... . I come up with it... . she agrees... . and off we go.

So... . my gut says that as long as I'm bringing this up during a time of normal... . not in dysregulation... . that she will go along with whatever I suggest.  From moving back in... . to staying away.

So... . I think it is incumbent on me to think this through with your guys help... . and the help of the family T.

[formflier]

I do think I need to clarify my non-negotiables.

What is a limit... . and what is a rule or guideline.


So... on the one hand... . trying to convince uBPDw of my version of what happened or what is the problem... . seems like a poor plan.

But... . some versions I should probably be strong on.

Such as corporal punishment.

Such as middle of the night rages.

Such as... . "do this or else threats"

Such as... . "you want to sleep with that woman (or variations on that)

Any comments on my list so far... . at this point... this is thinking outloud... . not publishing my well thought out list.  I need feedback. 

Whatever my list is... . how much T assisted talk do you think we should have about the events?

[Matt]

Well it's not good to argue about details, but the main events that happened are important.  She can't get healthy by inventing her own version of reality.

If you have or can get any tangible evidence, that would be helpful.  When the talk turns to the subject of the big events that happened - and I think it is essential that you deal with those events sooner or later - be prepared to say very clearly the main things that happened, and if she denies them, produce the evidence and see how she reacts.

It is important that she accept the truth - again, not trivial details that could easily be misremembered, but the main things.  If you allow her to go through life convincing herself of false versions of events, then she will continue to have a way to behave however she wants, and not deal with that.

I went through exactly this, unsuccessfully.  I had significant amounts of evidence as to the key events.  Our marriage counselors were reluctant to go there;  they were trying to make it all about improved communication, which may be the key for most couples.  I went along with that for a while, but insisted that we could not have a relationship based on a false version of reality, and we could not have a relationship if either of us would not take responsibility for our actions.

Our last MC got it - she perceived that my wife had BPD - and tried to help with this, but we weren't successful.  My wife was slippery - she always found some way to explain why her version of events conflicted with all the evidence, including even a detailed police report.  I finally gave up and decided I couldn't continue any longer, and went ahead with the divorce.  But with the right MC, and if both parties want to save the marriage enough, I hope you will have better results... .

[formflier]

Well it's not good to argue about details, but the main events that happened are important.  She can't get healthy by inventing her own version of reality.

If you have or can get any tangible evidence, that would be helpful.  When the talk turns to the subject of the big events that happened - and I think it is essential that you deal with those events sooner or later - be prepared to say very clearly the main things that happened, and if she denies them, produce the evidence and see how she reacts.

It is important that she accept the truth - again, not trivial details that could easily be misremembered, but the main things.  If you allow her to go through life convincing herself of false versions of events, then she will continue to have a way to behave however she wants, and not deal with that.

I went through exactly this, unsuccessfully.  I had significant amounts of evidence as to the key events.  Our marriage counselors were reluctant to go there;  they were trying to make it all about improved communication, which may be the key for most couples.  I went along with that for a while, but insisted that we could not have a relationship based on a false version of reality, and we could not have a relationship if either of us would not take responsibility for our actions.

Our last MC got it - she perceived that my wife had BPD - and tried to help with this, but we weren't successful.  My wife was slippery - she always found some way to explain why her version of events conflicted with all the evidence, including even a detailed police report.  I finally gave up and decided I couldn't continue any longer, and went ahead with the divorce.  But with the right MC, and if both parties want to save the marriage enough, I hope you will have better results... .

So... . did she acknowledge that the police thing happened... . but just twist some details? 

For instance:  I have copies of the two checks that my wife used to move $30k.  I also can prove this was done on the same day she text bombed me about signing over the van.  I went on about my day... . I had not agreed to do the sign over because there had been no discussion.  Telling me what time to be at the DMV is NOT a discussion.  Especially when this is the status quo about vehicles for over 19 years.

So... . if she says she didn't move the money... . that's not her signature.  Then we march off to police to file forgery report... or something like that.  It's her signature... . she did it... if she denies this... . I can't deal with that.

If she admits to it... but says I agreed.  Then I won't continue in the r/s unless we write down big agreements. 

If a conversation can always be changed... . I can't do that.  Reality matters to me.

If she admits but has whacky reasons why... . I can deal with that. 

Hope that makes sense.  Any reaction to my thinking so far?

[Matt]

So... . did she acknowledge that the police thing happened... . but just twist some details?

She didn't deny that it happened, but she never admitted that she lied.  We never had a rational conversation about it.  She "apologized" but only for what the police did - she said she never wanted me to be arrested, and I believe that (maybe), but it's not relevant.  She called 911 and told them I pushed her down the stairs - that was on tape - and constituted attempted murder.  The police had to cut me slack to charge me only with assault.

She was always slippery about and took offense if I brought it up, even in MC.  The last time we ever discussed it was when the MC left the room for a minute, and my wife took that opportunity to say she was convinced she never lied and there was nothing wrong with her.  This was almost a year after the incident, and convinced me that nothing had been accomplished and we were wasting our time with MC, and I needed to accept how things were and move on.

The challenge for you might be how and when to bring it up - whether to continue building on the positive stuff and maybe let the MC take the lead.

Do you have the feeling I had, that all the other issues are really baloney til the big events are discussed and resolved?  Or do you feel like it's valid and helpful to work out other stuff, and let these issues rest for a while?

[KateCat]

So... . if she says she didn't move the money... . that's not her signature.  Then we march off to police to file forgery report... or something like that.  It's her signature... . she did it... if she denies this... . I can't deal with that.

If she admits to it... but says I agreed.  Then I won't continue in the r/s unless we write down big agreements. 

If a conversation can always be changed... . I can't do that.  Reality matters to me.

If she admits but has whacky reasons why... . I can deal with that. 

Hope that makes sense.  Any reaction to my thinking so far?

Yeah, this makes sense to me. I think you are on a journey of discovery to learn about your wife's reality.

(I may be projecting my own family issues onto yours, but my money says she is not just abusing you cruelly for sport or some type of personal gain, but that she really does not trust you and thinks you are indeed up to bad--and kind of preposterous--things in secret.)

[Matt]

I think you are on a journey of discovery to learn about your wife's reality.

Very interesting way to put it.

I for one am convinced that my wife believed - and maybe still believes - at least some of the things she said.

She used to say, "I know there's something going on between you and such-and-such."  Every woman I ever worked with, every one of her friends, all my friends' wives, and even my sister-in-law - at one point or another she accused me of doing something wrong with all of them, and she always used those words:  "I know... . ".

I'm pretty sure she actually did "know" it - every single time.  It wasn't true - not once - but I believe if she had taken a lie-detector test - even if there was a perfect one - she probably would have passed them all.

This was her reality.  I think she felt something - probably fear of abandonment - and concluded that something must be causing that fear - someone must be planning to abandon her.  Must be me.

My point is - and I suspect most of us here could say the same thing - this isn't a matter of someone "lying".  In our divorce, I made sure to never accuse her of "lying", but pointed out that she made dozens of false statements under oath.

That may be what you're dealing with, related to the transfers of money and other issues.  She may more-or-less believe every word she is saying, and it may be difficult to break through that.

[Grey Kitty]

You have very real concerns and limits that would delay a move back... . or need to be dealt with first... . but what is YOUR choice--given how your wife is, not how you wish she would be, are you willing to move back in and try to make the best of it?

If it turns out that this is all a sham... . that there is no real change... . then I have no interest in moving back in.  Note:  I don't think that is the case... but I think it is wise to let time "test" this... . to make sure it sticks. 

After 5 years of drama and ups and downs... . this is something new.  I want to think about this and act in a wise manner to have the best chance of long term change... . not a short term flash in the pan... . and then back to same old grind.

I think questions like "Is it real change or a just a sham" aren't a helpful way for you to look at it, however true that concern is.

First, even "real change" is a up and down, two steps forward, one step back process.

Second, that is just too vague to be a useful guideline for you.

Third, requiring "change" from your partner is a losing operation.

I do think I need to clarify my non-negotiables.

Yes, indeed!

What is a limit... . and what is a rule or guideline.

To my mind, rules are just a bad idea to implement... . and "guidelines" are just wussier rules, I think.

True limits are back where you started--your non-negotiables!

It is good to notice the things you "want" from your wife... . but right now, I'd pay attention to the hard limits.

Such as corporal punishment.

Such as middle of the night rages.

Such as... . "do this or else threats"

Such as... . "you want to sleep with that woman (or variations on that)

Yes, those all sound like good choices.

I'd just come up with a plan of how you will deal with each of them. The first one requires outside support, or at least contingencies of it.

The others are ones that you can simply refuse to engage on, or go away to protect yourself. Simple boundary enforcement. (No, I didn't say EASY, just simple!)

Responses like: (want to sleep with ... . ) "I refuse to argue about what you believe I'm thinking"

Or like "I won't negotiate with you when you are making threats." (do this or else)

I'd work out how you deal with those on your own... . not involving either T. Also, no need to notify your wife that you are placing these limits--an unnecessary challenge to h er. Just enforce them. If you are very lucky, at least some of them will never happen again!

You may want to bring some of these things up in T... . but I would recommend instead bringing up areas where you actually need her willing cooperation with the T instead. A third party will be more helpful in negotiation.

The give-up-on-your-marriage limits will probably include worse behavior... . things like false accusations of DV, actual physical abuse of you... . things you cannot find ways to protect yourself from while staying with her.

Think about what lines you would draw about moving money out of the joint account. And also what you want to negotiate for regarding her move of $30k. You might start with an honest desire to understand what she was concerned about/afraid of that motivated her in the first place--if you can swing it--accusations are invalidating, and so is telling her that the history she believes is wrong. (Yes, truth is invalidating in many cases. Not a reason to ignore or let it go... . just a reason to think about whether you need to address that truth and when.)

Also... . please comment on my use of quotes... . spacing out answers and all that.

Yes, you are doing great with the bbcodes FYI, a trick... . if somebody does something you want to figure out how they did it, quote a reply and you will see all the code directly. (No need to post it... . just look at it)

[Matt]

Grey Kitty, I don't understand your statement that "requiring change from your partner is a losing proposition."

Isn't that what this is all about - figuring out what changes both parties need to make, so the relationship can work?

Would you suggest that someone go back into a relationship that has been toxic - accusations etc. - if there isn't a commitment to change, and some clear steps along that path?

(Or am I misunderstanding... . ?)

[Grey Kitty]

Grey Kitty, I don't understand your statement that "requiring change from your partner is a losing proposition."

Isn't that what this is all about - figuring out what changes both parties need to make, so the relationship can work?

Would you suggest that someone go back into a relationship that has been toxic - accusations etc. - if there isn't a commitment to change, and some clear steps along that path?

(Or am I misunderstanding... . ?)

"figuring out what changes both parties need to make, so the relationship can work" is a good model for two equally healthy individuals. Not quite the situation when one party suffers from BPD.

However I wouldn't suggest that people go back into something toxic... . unless something had changed that made them feel safe now. (Either because the other party is now behaving differently or because they have identified ways to protect themselves better.)

What I meant was that telling somebody that you need them to change (especially when they have mental illness) is often a losing proposition. Especially if it is a general or vague statement about what changes they need to make.

Identifying specific behaviors you need/want changed, and asking for that has a better chance to work.

Best by far is identifying changes that you can make on your own. And if you do change yourself, I believe you are more likely to see changes in your partner than if you simply ask your partner to change.

[Matt]

Grey Kitty, I don't understand your statement that "requiring change from your partner is a losing proposition."

Isn't that what this is all about - figuring out what changes both parties need to make, so the relationship can work?

Would you suggest that someone go back into a relationship that has been toxic - accusations etc. - if there isn't a commitment to change, and some clear steps along that path?

(Or am I misunderstanding... . ?)

"figuring out what changes both parties need to make, so the relationship can work" is a good model for two equally healthy individuals. Not quite the situation when one party suffers from BPD.

However I wouldn't suggest that people go back into something toxic... . unless something had changed that made them feel safe now. (Either because the other party is now behaving differently or because they have identified ways to protect themselves better.)

What I meant was that telling somebody that you need them to change (especially when they have mental illness) is often a losing proposition. Especially if it is a general or vague statement about what changes they need to make.

Identifying specific behaviors you need/want changed, and asking for that has a better chance to work.

Best by far is identifying changes that you can make on your own. And if you do change yourself, I believe you are more likely to see changes in your partner than if you simply ask your partner to change.

I see - thanks - I didn't understand that.

My own take on it - but this is coming from someone who has only been through this once, so I only learned what did and didn't work in my case - is that you can't have a healthy relationship with someone who has BPD, unless she has been diagnosed and is in treatment, and pretty far down that path, and really committed to it.  That's the only way I think you can be really safe from more accusations and other destructive behavior, in my view.

So... . "requiring change from your partner" to me sounds like what you want to do, but not as an expectation or as a request, or even as a promise or a negotiated agreement, but only as a medical diagnosis, a "prescription" - that is, a doctor prescribing a course of treatment - and enough progress in that course to convince you that change is really, really happening.

(Just a discussion which I hope will be helpful to Formflier and others - some semantics here, maybe more than a real disagreement.)

[formflier]

 

In my situation... . what I think will be "real change" is  continued work with Family T.  And some sort of ownership in that process that there are "things" that uBPDw needs to work on (change).

A dramatic example is how discipline is handled.  I run the risk in this example of her saying DSS said it is fine... . or not illegal or something like that.  But the basic thought that one parent can carry out discipline (or carry on with any activity) while the other partner is clearly distressed and wishes to talk... . is a non-starter for me... . and if she changes that... . it would indicate "real change".

I also think that now that this is out in the family... . everyone in family T... . so things can be discussed openly... . that real change will be obvious for both of us.  And... . if we get to the point of daddy making changes and mommy is not... . I need to be strong enough to keep shining the light on that... . and not enabling.

I also should have no expectation that the change will be equal, or fair... . etc etc.  If that were the case I think that would set me up for a big disappointment.

I am a bit reluctant to pin my hopes/actions on a diagnosis.  There seems to be a wide variety of thought in the T world about how to label this.  I have not had a specific conversation with the family T about this... . but I get the vibe that he is more about behaviors than labels... if I had to guess one way or another.

I totally agree that pwBPD that is not committed to getting better... or that thinks they are "fine"... . is not going to be able to have a r/s with much quality of life in it for the other person.

I could see that as the non gets better at tools... . the "existence" could get better... . but anything resembling a real r/s is going to be hard to come by.

[KateCat]

I could see that as the non gets better at tools... . the "existence" could get better... . but anything resembling a real r/s is going to be hard to come by.

As time passes, and you begin to consolidate your new understanding of your wife (and here I'm assuming that you come to understand that she has a major mental illness), your perceptions of everything will be changing. I think you will want to allow this process and this time, if you are "staying."

Re-reading GreyKitty's above posts a few times is on my agenda for today. I think it is a terrific best-practices summary of living with a mentally ill family member. (The "waverider" posts on this forum are also excellent guides. Like little zen koans that are absorbed slowly.)

I have one quick reaction to a post of yours from a few days ago. And it's maybe a "stale" post already, in the sense that you have already received feedback on it. In that particular post, you stated that you might not worry about family finances at this time, as other issues were more pressing. A better approach, I think, will be to face all important family matters at this time of therapeutic separation. Having the family on firm, understandable financial ground is the right thing to do and will make everyone feel better . . . probably sooner rather than later.

All of these things are super tough, but it could be that each change you make will potentiate the others, in a positive way.

[Matt]

I am a bit reluctant to pin my hopes/actions on a diagnosis.  There seems to be a wide variety of thought in the T world about how to label this.  I have not had a specific conversation with the family T about this... . but I get the vibe that he is more about behaviors than labels... if I had to guess one way or another.

Our MC told me, one-on-one, that she believed my wife had BPD, but that she did not want me to mention that to my wife or anybody else.  She urged me to read "Stop Walking On Eggshells" (which brought me here) and other stuff, so I could become skilled at dealing with someone who has BPD.

She believed that the label would make it more difficult for her to help my wife;  if the label was out in the open, my wife would be likely to quit working with her, or me, and nothing would get better.  She said therapists find it very difficult to work with people who have been diagnosed with BPD, because they often turn on the therapist, make accusations against the therapist, file complaints with the therapist's boss, etc.  She said a joke among therapists is, "Well it's almost three o'clock - time to be attacked by my BPD patient!".  Many therapists won't take on a patient who has been diagnosed with BPD, because they think it will be a big hassle and nothing will be accomplished - they just don't want such a person in their lives.

But without a formal diagnosis - which there wasn't at that time - she hoped she could work with us together, and one-on-one with my wife, to nudge her slowly, with some DBT-lite (dialectical behavior therapy) - again, not naming the therapy, just talking casually with her, using DBTish methods, and over time maybe she could help her.

I appreciated this approach and I'm convinced the therapist really wanted to help.  But after several months there was no sign she had accomplished anything, and I couldn't continue in that mode - our family home was losing value fast because of the real estate market, I was paying for everything, and my wife was making it clear that she had no intention of taking responsibility for her actions or committing to real change.  I viewed the therapist's approach as well-intended but futile;  I saw us all continuing to walk on eggshells rather than telling the truth about the situation, getting an objective diagnosis, and dealing with reality.

We finally got the diagnosis through the Custody Evaluator, but by that time the purpose wasn't to heal the marriage, it was to decide custody.  Still, the CE recommended psychotherapy, and my wife "agreed" to that, and it was written into the court order and issued by the court.  I don't think she ever complied with that, or took any other steps to get better.

My conclusion - in my wife's case - was that she was simply unwilling or not capable of accepting that she had a problem and needed help, so she will probably never accept the treatment she needs to get help.

So you could say the "no-diagnosis" approach didn't work, and the "get a diagnosis" approach didn't work either.  But I found other advantages to getting the diagnosis:  it helped me to understand, objectively, what the real situation is, and it helped with the custody case.

I can't say which of these outcomes would be the same in any other case.  I came out of it convinced that understanding and accepting objective reality is important, and that the diagnosis of a personality disorder like BPD is much more objective than I had realized.  I would urge anybody experiencing behavior which suggests BPD to try to get MMPIs for both parents, because that is how you understand objectively what is going on, and if you don't understand it you can't deal with it.  But I realize this is based on just one case I'm intimately familiar with, and there might be others who find good outcomes by a different approach.

I came out of it with the belief that the diagnosis and treatment of personality disorders is much more similar to other medical problems than we realize.  We accept without question that if you have diabetes or cancer, the first thing is to get whatever tests are needed to confirm the diagnosis, and then the doctor prescribes the course of treatment most likely to work, based on research, and you're kind of nuts to not follow that course of treatment so you will get better, or to insist that another family member diagnosed with diabetes or cancer follow the recommended course of treatment.

But somehow we - and I include in "we" many "therapists" - cling to old and ineffective methods which were used before psychological disorders were understood as well as they are now, or ad hoc methods they hope might work but which have not been shown to be effective.  I'm not an expert, but there is research showing that DBT is effective once someone has been diagnosed with BPD, and I am not aware of any research showing that BPD can be treated effectively without first being diagnosed.

I don't think walking on eggshells works.

[formflier]

I could see that as the non gets better at tools... . the "existence" could get better... . but anything resembling a real r/s is going to be hard to come by.

  Having the family on firm, understandable financial ground is the right thing to do and will make everyone feel better . . . probably sooner rather than later.

All of these things are super tough, but it could be that each change you make will potentiate the others, in a positive way.

So... . here is an odd way that I think about this sometime.

I have "proven" over the years... . that I can make a lot of $$... manage it properly and all that.  So... . luckily... long term... . I'm not that concerned about $$.  I think chances of us being on the street or not being able to eat are very low.

Fixing finances will be... most likely... . very time consuming.  That is a bit limited now... . and if I got to choose time with kids or work on my job... . or... just about anything else... . I think I would pick that.

The record is pretty clear (at least to any nons)... . that uBPDw has grabbed control... . and is wrecking things pretty badly.

If I step in before the crash is over... it muddies the waters... . I could get in on the "blame". 

And... . if she actually makes things better... . and I didn't lift a finger... . I'm cool with that too.

I realize that she may never (or she may) acknowledge her part in this... . but there are some financial ties to her family (through properties)... . that are being messed up as well.  They understand that I am the one that has had a major behavior change... . and I think most understand that it is reaction to uBPDw behavior. 

Not really making my point very well here... .

Let me try again... . I'm fine with it costing me a lot of $$... . if the "blame" doesn't fall on me.

Things have come up... . and when I refer them to my wife as the person "making financial decisions" for the family... . you can kinda see the What the heck? in their face... . any follow up to that I refer them to her for an explanation as to why.

I think I will quit writing on this for a bit... . but I do welcome peoples opinions and suggestions on this.  I'm also sure I'm not looking at... . dealing with finances properly... . and I'll be honest... . right now I don't care.

As opposed right now I care about safety for kids, corporal punishment... etc etc

[formflier]

 

Good stuff Matt,

I will bring up MMPI with family T tomorrow.

Also will also ask the question about formal diagnosis.

My introduction to the family T (if you remember the ambush thing)... . put me off a bit... . but I really like the guy.  PHD... . in his early 70s.  Talking about 1 or 2 more years before retiring. 

His comment about BPD was that if it was true he would be come "the hated one"... . but that was fine by him.  So... . I did't get any fear of BPD from him.

He told uBPDw and I that he doesn't like to beat around the bush... . and he hasn't with me.  Not sure how he has been with wife. 

My gut says he has realized that I am being truthful about no affairs.  We went into great detail about what I have and hadn't done... . before and after I met uBPDw.  He then followed up with questions about any knowledge of molestation, abuse or other such things in uBPDw early life. 

Other than being raised by a mom with strong BPDish traits... . I don't know of anything specific.

[KateCat]

Wow, you are doing great. You have plugged so many holes in such a short time. This therapist sounds great to me too (but that's probably because I'm old like him). Someone will have to be the bad guy for the time being, and it sounds as though he's up to it.

Do you have any idea yet what the family role of your older teenage kids will be in the next year or two? Will they be leaving pretty soon to launch their own separate lives, or will they likely live at home for a few more years? Either way, it seems that the family dynamic will be changing in quite a few ways . . . .

[Matt]

... . in his early 70s.  Talking about 1 or 2 more years before retiring. 

This might be a red flag.  Maybe I'm generalizing - not saying someone that age can't do a great job.

But my understanding is that someone who went to school, and was mentored, and developed his therapeutic method, more than 40 years ago, before personality disorders were understood very well, may still be using old methods that were not (if I understand correctly) very effective.

Someone who has come of age professionally in the last 20 years or so would have the benefit of learning based on newer, better ways of looking at these issues and more effective treatment methods.

[formflier]

Wow, you are doing great. You have plugged so many holes in such a short time. This therapist sounds great to me too (but that's probably because I'm old like him). Someone will have to be the bad guy for the time being, and it sounds as though he's up to it.

Do you have any idea yet what the family role of your older teenage kids will be in the next year or two? Will they be leaving pretty soon to launch their own separate lives, or will they likely live at home for a few more years? Either way, it seems that the family dynamic will be changing in quite a few ways . . . .

One is already at college but is home for the summer.

Next one is 2 years away from leaving for college.

Next one down will be in high school next year... .

and on it goes.

[ForeverDad]

My introduction to the family T (if you remember the ambush thing)... . put me off a bit... . but I really like the guy.  PHD... . in his early 70s.  Talking about 1 or 2 more years before retiring. 

His comment about BPD was that if it was true he would be come "the hated one"... . but that was fine by him.  So... . I did't get any fear of BPD from him.

He told uBPDw and I that he doesn't like to beat around the bush... .

That is a point we have made here before.  Let your lawyer be your buffer from the emotional pressuring, defer to or 'blame' the lawyer or the court (or T) to stbEx when the other tries to guilt you into weakening your boundaries and terms, in other words, let the lawyer or court (or T) be the tough guy.  After all, that's partly what they're paid for.

By the way, even if there is some level of reconciliation, however temporary or not, it would be very wise to be the one sure of birth control.  No more, "Guess what!" or "Oops, I forgot."  The last thing you need is more (and younger) children in a troubled and likely ending relationship.  The sad truth is that, despite how wonderful children are, having children does not fix a dysfunctional relationship, it just makes it more complicated, especially when unwinding the relationship.

[formflier]

... . in his early 70s.  Talking about 1 or 2 more years before retiring. 

This might be a red flag.  Maybe I'm generalizing - not saying someone that age can't do a great job.

But my understanding is that someone who went to school, and was mentored, and developed his therapeutic method, more than 40 years ago, before personality disorders were understood very well, may still be using old methods that were not (if I understand correctly) very effective.

Someone who has come of age professionally in the last 20 years or so would have the benefit of learning based on newer, better ways of looking at these issues and more effective treatment methods.

Yeah... . I had thought about that... . and need to specifically ask him about DBT... if he does that... . his thoughts.

Etc etc.

It may turn out that he is good on "family dynamics"... . but may be short on DBT skills. 

On the web he does not list BPD as something he treats or "personality disorders".  He does boost himself up for "family systems".

He lists CBT but not DBT.

When wife first gave me his name... . this was one of the reasons I wanted to discuss with her... and maybe find another "family t"... . because if I could get a guy with DBT experience... . and PD experience... it might be likely to have an easier transition to DBT... . if needed.

[formflier]

By the way, even if there is some level of reconciliation, however temporary or not, it would be very wise to be the one sure of birth control.  The last thing you need is more children in a difficult and likely ending  relationship.

Yeah... . especially given my track record... .    

And... I will tell everyone straight up I am a coward when it comes to medical procedures... . so... chances of something sharp coming near my b@ll$ is about zero.

No idea how much you guys appreciate the naval aviator stories... . but here goes... . and explains some of my fears about sharp objects.

So... . one of my buds finally decided to get it done... . and get cut.  The doc is in the middle of things... is saying how it should hurt and all that... . and apparently has to tug on something down there.  The doc tugs... . my buddy feels a twinge... . and his arm flopped around... . like a reflex.

The ready room was bursting with laughter... . because of the story... . and because I'm sure I looked like I was going to pass out.  They all know my issues... . and were imagining what would happen when I finally went under the knife... .

[KateCat]

Maybe you can achieve some "boundary" understandings first with this therapist and then transition to "therapeutic" services later with a different practitioner.

(For an amusing look at an astute seventy-something professional dealing with individuals with personality disorders, tune in on almost any day to Judge Judy's smalls claims TV court.)

[Grey Kitty]

At the big picture level... . here is where I *think* you are right now, FF:

Cautiously wanting to move back into the house with your wife and children.

Willing to work on your side of improving the r/s with your wife.

Willing to live at "peace" with your wife for the benefit of your children, even if it is not a good, intimate marriage.

Working out your limits which would push you to end the marriage and fight for custody.

Examining but not pulling the trigger on legal options against your wife.

Is this an accurate summary? (I suspect I may be putting a few words here in your mouth, based on my own biases)

Note: I left out any mentions of what you want/expect/hope your wife to do--you have no control over that--These are all choices/positions within your own realm of control.

[Matt]

I had a vasectomy.  It was very painful but it worked.  Before that, my wife had lied to me about birth control, and we had a baby.  She believed I would marry her I she got pregnant, and she was right.  Then she did it again.  Two great kids who I love very much.

Many here have similar experiences.  Women with BPD often use pregnancy to get or keep control.

[Matt]

My concern about T70 is not just whether he uses or is even aware of DBT.

It's whether he believes in using objective, proven methods to diagnose psychological disorders.  If not, I don't think you can expect good results.

[formflier]

At the big picture level... . here is where I *think* you are right now, FF:

Cautiously wanting to move back into the house with your wife and children.

Willing to work on your side of improving the r/s with your wife.

Willing to live at "peace" with your wife for the benefit of your children, even if it is not a good, intimate marriage.

Working out your limits which would push you to end the marriage and fight for custody.

Examining but not pulling the trigger on legal options against your wife.

Is this an accurate summary? (I suspect I may be putting a few words here in your mouth, based on my own biases)

Note: I left out any mentions of what you want/expect/hope your wife to do--you have no control over that--These are all choices/positions within your own realm of control.

First reaction is that you are right on target.  I'll try to spend some time on this later and see if I can sweeten this up.

[formflier]

I had a vasectomy.  It was very painful but it worked.  Before that, my wife had lied to me about birth control, and we had a baby.  She believed I would marry her I she got pregnant, and she was right.  Then she did it again.  Two great kids who I love very much.

Many here have similar experiences.  Women with BPD often use pregnancy to get or keep control.

Yeah... . I can see that... . from reading on this board... . and from thinking back in my life.

People would always ask me when we were going to quit... . and I would say that is up to my wife.

On the one hand she stayed healthy and the docs cleared her to continue. 

On the other... . she is SAHM... . so she is one choosing workload and to work it out.  I was gone a lot so I was in a support role... . from a distance a lot of time.

I'm pretty sure I remember some of the times that she got pregnant... . I was always willing... . but she wanted to get pregnant... .

Yeah... those thoughts have been weighing on my mind a lot. 

[Matt]

B

[Matt]

Being a parent is hard work and takes lots of time.  I have four, but only two at home.  (The four span 20 years in age.)

If there are two parents, both mentally and physically healthy, and one works outside the home, so the other does more of the parenting, that can work very well.

But if the stay-at-home parent isn't mentally healthy, the risks for the kids get much higher.  Kids raised primarily by a parent who has BPD, but isn't in treatment, are at much, much higher risk for depression, substance abuse, etc. - basically everything that can go wrong is much more likely.

You can read about this in "Understanding The Borderline Mother".  It's super-detailed and well-researched.  I found it very depressing, because it reflects so well what my stepson went through - he could basically represent the risks - psychological abuse when he was little, plus just a little physical and sexual abuse, leading to drinking by 12, drugs in high school, and then prison.  How that happens is a long story, but it happens pretty often when kids are left in the care of someone whose thinking is twisted.

So... . you have your work cut out for you.  Even if you wife were diagnosed now, and treated effectively, it's likely that one or more of your kids have already been impacted in ways that may not be obvious til later.  You'll need to learn a lot and be a big part of all their lives to reduce the risks.

My older stepdaughter is doing well but I believe she was impacted negatively in more subtle ways.  D17 and S16 are doing well too, but it's work to help them work through many issues that they deal with resulting from their mom's psychological problems - BPD and others.  So I'm not saying it can't be done - I believe kids are resilient and can do well if one parent has BPD or another psychological disorder - but it puts a big burden on the healthier parent, to work on ourselves and make sure we stay healthy, and to learn how to help kids who are dealing with a parent who has a big problem.