Continuing the self respect and open warfare thread

[formflier]

For example, I pointed out that Mrs. FF might have been embarrassed to be without dinner money at the church.

If you had said something like, "Well, her embarrassment was not my concern. I wanted to be consistent with my boundaries," 

Good point... .I should have addressed it. 

There are some overriding principles at stake here.

Ultimately:  We are not responsible for the emotions of others... .or more specifically... .we are not responsible for helping them to manage their emotions.

(Please note:  That doesn't mean I shouldn't "appropriately try to support her emotions"

In my world, once you get to boundaries stage... .their emotions aren't of concern.  Boundaries versus emotion:  Boundaries win. 

Oh... .here is the reason I haven't asked if the kids got fed. 

It's not that I don't care.  Given history, asking stuff like that is pitching a fastball to my wife to start b___ing again.  If I take the attitude that she is an adult with resources and can solve her own problems (especially those that she created herself)... .I shouldn't need to check with her.

If she brings it up I would talk to her about it, up until point she tried to reopen the argument.

Hope that makes sense.

FF

[formflier]

The Daniel in the Lion's Den analogy got my attention because Daniel was a righteous man who found himself surrounded by lions potentially about to attack, but God was on his side.
 

Correct on Daniel.  I didn't think deeply about the analogy.  We just got done with it at church, so it was on my mind.

I know that you guys are on my side and there is much in this thread that I've been able to take and "sharpen" myself with. 

I don't feel attacked at all... .again... .it was for a chuckle... .nothing I thought deeply about.

The only place in the entire thread that I felt a bit... ."ticked" about was a reference to me "getting" sex. (when actually it was a lot of work... and kinda freaked me out)  Granted... I hadn't explained the entire story.  I'm not at all ticked now.

You guys know me... .speak your mind plainly and directly and I'll sort out what helps.  If you think I've missed a point... .speak up (which you have).


FF

[formflier]

  I’m assuming you were an officer, which would make it even more applicable.
 

Yep... .had two commanding officer tours and a couple civilian jobs after that were I was CEO type.  So, lots of thinking about organizing people... .creating structure... .etc etc.


To KateCat's question about what to do now... .  I suspect that will be item of discussion in P for several weeks.  I don't see good solution. 

Establishing some sort of feedback loop (pathway) to mentor or those advising (mentoring) my wife is a good idea... .but who knows how that would work out.

My take on why my wife will only counsel with a mentor is that the mentor is a lay person and I suspect somehow my wife thinks she can "buffalo" them and end up with no real changes.

Or... .that she can do a lot of activity there and then "poof" everything will magically change with no sustained hard effort or accountability.

Very judgmental of me... .I know.  But that is what it looks like to me.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Oh... .here is the reason I haven't asked if the kids got fed. 

It's not that I don't care.  Given history, asking stuff like that is pitching a fastball to my wife to start b___ing again.  If I take the attitude that she is an adult with resources and can solve her own problems (especially those that she created herself)... .I shouldn't need to check with her.

If she brings it up I would talk to her about it, up until point she tried to reopen the argument.

Hope that makes sense.


Makes total sense to me. You don't want to be opening up a can of worms.

[Cat Familiar]

My take on why my wife will only counsel with a mentor is that the mentor is a lay person and I suspect somehow my wife thinks she can "buffalo" them and end up with no real changes.

Or... .that she can do a lot of activity there and then "poof" everything will magically change with no sustained hard effort or accountability.

Very judgmental of me... .I know.  But that is what it looks like to me.


I don't think it's judgmental, rather it's observational from long experience.

[Notwendy]

FF, that was from me, and I don't have BPD, and I can't speak for your wife, but in perhaps a similar way that you felt put off being expected to give her money when she wasn't nice to you, my H was not nice to me but still expected me to cook dinner, clean up on my own, put the kids to bed and provide *benefits* because- well he worked hard supporting the family. Basically, I felt like a paid employee with benefits. There's another word for that as well, I am aware.

Well, I was co-dependent, but another reason for my default was that the fighting between us was causing issues with the kids, they were scared and anxious and I recall my own childhood and didn't want to put them through that. If dinner was cooked ( I cooked for them anyway) and he got what he wanted, the home remained more peaceful.

Yes, sex is a good thing and women can enjoy it too. But being co-dependent, my main motivator was not love or desire , but fear, and in that way, I contributed to the destruction of my relationship by doing this to keep the peace.

Sex and money were inflammable topics in my parent's marriage, and also in mine. They are emotionally laden and mean different things to different people. I have since learned that if I am angry at someone, it is very hard to feel desire towards them. I am well aware of sex as a glue between married people and the benefit of it, yet also aware of how we can warp one of the most meaningful things between a couple when our relationship is dysfunctional.

So it wasn't so much as an accusation as statement about something that can be inflammatory. Someone might think "hey things are OK" if there is sex but if there are issues, the issues don't go away.

I think in general the fact that this is still a part of your marriage is a very good thing considering how sex is often a situation that is affected by dysfunction.

Actually, I think the absence of sex in a marriage is the most destructive thing to do. It is one reason I continued it even when things were at their worst. IMHO, to not do it would be far worse. But the emotional consequences for me of feeling like an unloved sex provider now that things have improved in my marriage ( thank goodness)  are still challenges for me to deal with.

[Notwendy]

I also add that the decision to reduce the conflict for the sake of the kids is not something I regret at all. I think it was influenced by how I grew up. I think there could have been ways to deal with conflict better, but at the time, I had no idea what, and the yelling at night was scary and disruptive to them. I also was able to be present for them as a mom which was most meaningful to me- also considering how I grew up- I wanted my kids to have a mom. Through dealing with co-dependency, I learned better skills to deal with the relationship.

Sex, money, religion, are huge things. Money is a necessity. Sex is a gift. Religion a path, but I am simply in awe of how we can make a mess out of these things in a dysfunctional relationship.

[Verbena]

I think it's time to shift the focus from managing your wife's mental illness to protecting your children. 

They need to experience a home free from the chaos your wife creates, even if it's only fifty percent of the time.  They longer they are subjected to this same dysfunctional dynamic, the more damage is being done. 

 

[teapay]

Inquiries and concerns regarding the welfare of children are good, because dependent welfare is one of the most important considerations.  In fact, it is one of the most important considerations of the teapay protocol and is strongly factored into the method.  However, it doesn’t trump the health of the male non husband and father in a sustained way.  That would be a serious breach of the protocol because it would compromise and limit the father’s freedom of action to ultimately benefit the children in the long run. A system where the welfare of dependents out weights or compromises the welfare of the benefactor can not be sustained.   So, yes, the concern is well founded, but addressed by the method.

[formflier]

Feel free to keep going in this thread... .probably best to limit discussion here to self respect and the "ff happy meal deal"  (that's better than "supper caper"... .right?"

I've started new threads on "the way forward" and another thread on "my nice wife showing back up"

You know that I'm going to say... .  "Poof"... .all the bad stuff never happened.

FF

[KateCat]

teapay, I find all that you say cogent and convincing. Yet like Verbena, I sense that the "long run" seems to have run already. This situation appears to have been one of instability and strife for nearly ten years, if I read formflier's history correctly.

In other words, this--exactly this--situation that the psychologist has characterized as unstable--has been and continues to be the children's experience growing up. I can't see it as anything but traumatizing and destined to have life-long effects on each child.

The teapay protocol is a sturdy, practicable one, I think. If applied in time and with the guidance of mental health professionals.  

I fear being offensive to formflier here, but the present situation appears grim, with all family members suffering. And I think formflier understands and is working hard with the psychologist.

[Verbena]

It would be interesting to know what the children would tell a therapist if they felt safe enough from their mother's wrath to speak freely. I suspect most, if not all of them, either need help now or will in the future to sort out their feelings about what they have been witnessing.

[formflier]

I fear being offensive to formflier here, but the present situation appears grim, with all family members suffering. And I think formflier understands and is working hard with the psychologist.

Please don't fear any offense... .say it the way you see it.  I want to look at all angles.  I think I will try to get another thread started to give history (high points) of where we are at now.

My initial reaction to thinking about this is that yes... .right now is grim.  Compared to 4 years ago... .this is sipping a cold drink on a sunny beach. 

But... .let's examine that in another thread.

FF

[KateCat]

Hey, don't make me list everything you've written about here in the last four years . . . because I can. 

[Notwendy]

Verbena, it is an interesting question. We kids were raised to not speak about it, and if we were, we were invalidated by both parents, and other adults like my mother's FOO. We soon learned there was little point in speaking to people who either didn't believe us or punished us when we did.

It does help to speak to a therapist-as it is someone who actually can hear and see them. How much more powerful would it have been for my father to hear me and see me. That's a hard line to walk as a spouse, you don't want to triangulate. I think this is where a therapist can play a role as a neutral person. But a parent can still listen and validate the feelings " I understand this is scary for you and I will find someone you feel safe to talk to"

[ArleighBurke]

Wow this thread has exploded! When I last checked, FF asked about having Males weigh in... .so I'm back!

I want to talk about the night time sex. I understand FF you say you "went slow" and waited for her to "come with you", but I can COMPLETELY see this being abuse of power again.

It has been suggested that your actions denying her money at the church was a power play. So i can understand that when she came home she was "compliant" - sitting with you, cuddling, going along with whatever you wanted. In HER mind, she probably had no choice.

One of the hardest lessons I had to learn was listening to my gut, and stopping myself from pushing for sex when she really didn't want it - even when it "appears" like she was saying yes. 95% of the time that I listen to my gut i am right. And I think the way you check is with WORDS.

Perhaps there was conversation, but you don't talk about any on the couch with your wife and that is a problem for me. Without telling her where you are at, without opening up, she is guessing. Would it be in you to say: "I'm sorry that things happened at the church today the way they did. I understand I probably made you feel upset and annoyed, possibly even embarrased. I want to move on from that. I would love to cuddle with you on the couch for a while and chat. How was church?"

This is NOT JADEing - no mention of why you did anything. It is OPEN - I truely believe you ARE sorry about the interaction (sorry that it happenned, not sorry for your own behaviour). Because this statement is open, it invites her to talk. Possibly she will still stay silent and just be compliant, but I suspect she will talk. Then YOU need to decide based on what she says whether she is still "scared of you" or whether she is OK.

And if it's taking ages for her to "respond" to you making sex moves then she probably isn't interested! Again: "Honey I'd love to make love with you, and I'm getting some feedback that you are interested, but I'm also getting the feeling that you don't want to. Where are you at?". This is the hardest thing to say because she's probably going to say no! Just be man enough to accept the no response, say something loving/reassuring then go to sleep cuddling her.

I think you are in the stage I was in about 12 months ago - the "war" stage as you say. It's a natural place to be - but you need to decide whether to leave or stay.

[Notwendy]

Thanks for this explanation ArleighBurke. I think it is valuable- not to blame FF or other people for doing "what comes naturally" if approached physically. The situation you described- sex without resolving issues- went on for years in my marriage.

Money and sex were huge issues between my parents and going into marriage, I was very aware of how using either for power/control or as a weapon could cause serious harm to the relationship. I was quite devastated when similar problems showed up in mine. I don't think my H did it intentionally so much as naively. I know that both partners contribute to the dysfunction, but I had seen the dangers of these and knew not to. I can see where others might not have witnessed their potentially destructive force and so naively caused damage to their relationships.

What is the difference between a spouse and an employee? I think in a traditional marriage- there can be expectations and agreements- but these involve maturity and communication, and other intangibles that are difficult in a dysfunctional marriage. Money and sex are commodities and how they are used affects the relationship. Misuse of either- by either spouse- can erode it.

[formflier]

Just so you guys know:  The sex with my wife a couple days (was it 1 day later?) after the church supper thing was totally new territory.

She can be a bit on the quieter side, but usually there is a a clear verbal indication of what she wants when she is seeking me out.  As you guys can probably guess... .I'm pretty straightforward when I'm interested.

I knew she was likely raw from the supper thing.  So had given a couple gentle "bids" to let her know I was "leaning in" to the r/s.  Several were verbal.  Once she sat on the couch with me and kinda "buried" her head in my neck/shoulder area I realized that "something" was up.

Big picture:  We certainly went over and hour and likely close to 2 hours without her speaking a word to me.   Then... post sex... .she laughs big-time about something S13 did earlier that day.  I did consider saying something like "I'm not going to proceed unless you tell me what you want... ."  but figured it would be "not letting her be her."

I also wanted to be careful to not come of as "demanding"... .wanted her to feel "safe".  That was a reason I wanted to wait until she was giving clear indications that she wanted to move to next stage.

I pretty much made that evening up as it went along.  Zero frame of reference.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

I think I missed some of Arliegh Burkes questions.

Many times when my wife is quieter she will usually straight up tell me to "hush and get busy... " or other direction of what to do with my mouth... .other than talk.

Turndowns from either of us are very rare. 

My P has described her behavior as "hyper-sexual" and... .in a grandmotherly kinda of way... .chuckles at me.  Ask's if it would be believable to the 20 year old me that in my 40s I would be saying that I get "too much" sex and if given the choice would rather have a conversation... .than "the act".


Also given NotWendy's list of "emotionally laden" things... .my sex life is the "least dysfunctional".

I used to think that our religious life was only slightly nuanced in our differences... .and honestly... .I think she changes positions on issues just to be contrary or to avoid intimacy.  The intimacy of a warm conversation about God's love.  (I can totally understand how a person with a poor sense of self would want to avoid conversations about how special and unique they are.)

Money will likely be dysfunctional for the rest of our marriage with me putting up boundaries to limit her destructive capability.  And her banging into those boundaries.

Kids:  I'm going to start a new post on this.  Likely will be focus on my P visit today.  Been thinking about how to model myself after livednlearned to focus on kids... .at KateCat's behest.

More to come.

FF

[KateCat]

Good work, formflier.

This psychologist doesn't mince words, does she?

My P has described her behavior as "hyper-sexual"

Do you think she sees this as a significant component of the family's dynamics?

ADDED: Would it help to ask the psychologist if she used this term in its "clinical" meaning? Or maybe there is no other meaning . . .

[formflier]

This psychologist doesn't mince words, does she?
 

Nope... and oddly enough... .you realize you just got told something big, but it's kinda ok.

I think my P can generally predict how my wife with perceive things. So, I'm very interested in her take on the sex a after the supper thing.


I'm going to ask her to help me prioritize today.

Then... .there is going to have to be a comparison of the priority list... with what is doable.

One of the things that attracts me to a heavier focus on family devotions as a time for me to teach healthy emotional behavior is that

1.  The rules are clear cut.
2.  They aren't my rules... .so it is easier for me to validate and "be there for my wife"
3.  It is area I enjoy and I think this can get done with relatively little energy expenditure from me and minimal fighting.

[Cat Familiar]

Your wife being "hypersexual" reminds me of an acquaintance I knew long ago, who I now suspect was BPD. She too was hypersexual and it seemed to be her source of power over men. Unlike most women, for whom the emotional component needs to be settled before they felt sexually expressive, with her, the order seemed to be reversed.

She needed to be sexual in order to get her emotions settled. I wonder if that is what is happening with your wife.

[formflier]

She needed to be sexual in order to get her emotions settled. I wonder if that is what is happening with your wife.

Yes... .then there is a period of closeness after sex where my wife is kind and happy.  Off she goes to sleep.  I suspect she wakes up and ruminates over things.  Next morning the pissed off version gets out of bed.

There are some mornings (last several) where she will stay and snuggle in bed... .her mood is generally better on those days.

But... .back to Cat's observation.  My wife seems interested in screwing my brains out when I have no interest and most other women wouldn't give their man the time of day... .because of conflict.

Granted... .many times I blame her... .and then she twists things in her mind to become victim... .then come after me sexually.

Not sure if there is a way forward or something in this pattern I can use to stabilize things. 

Other than making sure I stay stretched out and keep my back strong... .

FF

[empath]

Sex is sometimes a tool to make it 'feel' like there is a good relationship when there isn't. It can be part of the push-pull dynamic (or mixed messages as my h's P tells him); it can also be a way that a person can maintain power over the other. There are powerful hormones that are released that can make a person feel good (a kind of 'high' - for a limited amount of time - and feel like they have bonded even when they aren't. It can also hook the other person into the cycle.

Using sex to manipulate and control others is wrong on so many levels. That's not what it's meant for.

[formflier]

My guess is that my wife falls into the category of "I feel better and feel bonded" during sex.

If you guys thought my boundary on my wallet was tight... .threats and manipulation is like fort knox.

Anything that smacks of you better do this or else... .creates and exit by me.  Subject is closed.  I can only remember a couple times when my wife overtly tried to use sex to control or bargain.  

Luckily... .threats are pretty much in the past.

As I reflect on this post... .I do think my wife uses it as a "hook."  Can also be looked at as "cheering me up".  I was kinda down a few weeks ago (don't remember why)... .but didn't express much interest.  In fact, turned her down for sex.  She was kind about it. 

2 days later I was trying to relax and rest my back when she marches in the bedroom, takes of my clothes... her clothes and left me wondering what just happened to me.  So either making sure I was still "hooked"... or perhaps a genuine effort to cheer me up


FF