Divorce and Custody Court tomorrow

[Panshekay]

It’s finally here... .Wed and Thur is the Divorce and Custody hearing. Our son hasn’t seen our Grandson for about 42 days. I feel at peace, not sure why... .I guess by the Grace of God. I’m asking for prayers that the truth will be shown in the courtroom and the judge will see our soon to be EX DIL for what she really is.  As many know this has been a 4 year battle, 2+ year divorce battle. I have appreciated the support, ForverDad, SES, Panda39 FF, LNL.  Like I told our S, no matter what happens these next few days it’s not over, it’s never over... .thanks  to all who share their stories, it’s what has helped us get through it... .as much as possible. I hope I have good news to share on Thur. Again thank you.

[Panda39]

Who knew Elvis was so deep 

Thinking of you 

[formflier]

I will be praying for you.

State your truth, submit your evidence, take notes and suggest hard questions or point out inconsistencies for your lawyer to use.

Lots of notes... .

   

FF

[ForeverDad]

There is absolutely positively nothing wrong with you and your son trying to remain/be a part of GS's life.

One aspect of a trial, beyond presenting your case for a best-scenario outcome, is providing a solid foundation of facts presented on the record and probably identified with Exhibit numbers or letters.  Have triplicates, one each for selves, other side and judge.  If the outcome is lousy, you'll need that already done since most states require appeals, objections and requests for reconsideration be limited to only the testimonies and evidence submitted.  Appeals, etc are often waged on the technicalities, what may seem an obvious miscarriage of justice may be excluded and what you see as inconsequential may be what get selected to send the case back for reconsideration.

Do not fear asking for what you see as needed to correct the problems, but it's okay to state willingness to work even with half-measures that would be better than the current impasse.  For example, "Your Honor, with all these identified obstructions of Father's parenting, notwithstanding Mother's claimed reasons for her obstructions, the court must accept that no claim has been substantiated against Father.  The most obvious remedy would be to limit Mother's domination of parenting and grant Father full custody and majority parenting to Father.  If that solution is too great a change for the court then Father is willing to try again with Joint Custody but as Decision Making or Tie Breaker parent to reduce Mother's determination to shut Father out of parenting by her making repeated unsubstantiated allegations to keep Father on the defensive... ."

Okay, I admit my address to the court was a bit wishful but if only... .

[ForeverDad]

Reviewing this thread reminded me that our perspective, and how we present ourselves, is that we're problem solvers.  Or need to be seen that way by the court.  Thank you, Bill Eddy.  Panshekay's DIL is making allegation after allegation and her obvious goal is to have their child's Father banished from his son's life.  Hopefully court will not accept that tactic as a solution.  So a part of the challenge her son and his lawyer have is to outline the problem and present solutions.  Okay, not that simple and not easy either.  But there ought to be a theme, "We have a solution and it is workable, we know what doesn't work, an endless cycle of obstruction and allegations, so try this... ."

[formflier]

Any updates?  Hoping things are turning for the better!

FF

[Panshekay]

Thank you everyone. Boy, someone once said going through all this is like trying to out run an avalanche, that is exactly how I feel.  Today is Sat.  Court was supposed to be Wed and Thur.  Let’s add Friday, next Monday and next Friday to that. 

Had a few surprises.  First... .our sons attorney got a call from the judge on Wed morning. I will call her Judge R.  She says she does not want to hear this long case... .and wait for it, she wants to talk to both our S and his W outside of court... .and tells Our S attorney, just tell your client to let W have full custody of their S. ... .of course our Son attorney says no! And then Judge R says I dont want to hear this long case, just tell him to let W have full custody... .she says no, he wont agree to that. So the judge hangs up on our S attorney. S attorney drives  down to the court house then into chambers and judge R, and W attorney, and judge H (who was the first judge before it went to family court)  are in there talking about the case and she just walks in... .Our S attorney says you are not supposed to meet without all attorneys what are you talking about, they all look guilty, so judge R says she is not doing it, Judge H can do it. 

Next surprise. DHS gets up to testify, they state our S is innocent, AND they got a call from my GS school stating on Dec 1 he lost it and started telling everyone that his M was telling him to tell all adults that his dad was touching him, that his M showed him a video of his dad beating his mom with a bat, but it wasn’t his dad in the video and his M told him if he sees his dad that his dad will kill his mom.  No one knew about this... .

GS GAL could not make court so she has a fill in.  Our S had 7 witnesses, plus the Detective who said our S was innocent of all charges and our S asked him if he should take a polygraph test.  Our DIL had ONE witness, a neighbor who she has known for a year and a half. That was it.  No family, no one else.  I testified and the very first question my DIL attorney asked me was... .have you ever been sexually abused by a family member... .I don’t tell the world about this... .my first thought was, is he trying to trick me to see if I’m going to lie.  I said as a matter of fact, yes my father molested me... .then he asks me if I’ve had any other family members sexually abused. I say yes... .he asks who, I tell him and then he asks where our S was during this time. I said in Iraq.  Then he asks me if my S and I ever discussed his W mental health records, I said no (they are protected records that he had to read at his attorneys office) then he yells (never a good thing with me) you mean to tell me that you and your son have never discussed his W mental health records... .and I said very loudly, SIR, I said No, I didn’t need to discuss them, I LIVED it with him for 10 years. That was all he asked me.

The Doctor (very soft spoken man) that our S worked with for 3 years testified and in the end he said  what I can say about _ is he is the best human being I have ever met.  Which made me cry... .what a wonderful thing to say. Everyone did a great job.

Monday his W testifies... .then Friday is the final part. I want to say it’s going well, but we all know things can change. Children Advocacy Center is still fully on his W side, as is the CAC therapist who still feels our son is abusing our Grandson, and our GS attorney also feels that same way. Interestingly enough NONE of those people ever met with our son.  And the therapist who lied in the very beginning?  Our S attorney destroyed him on the witness stand.

One interesting side note. His W uses a ER visit as her psychological evaluation. On the top it says “psychological issues”: None.  So on the stand her attorney asks our S to read the top out loud. He says “ it says ER visit,  This isn’t a psychological evaluation”. Her attorney couldn’t get out of that fast enough. Boom.

I will keep you posted, we will see... .I am hopeful.

[GaGrl]

Sending all positive energy... .

[formflier]

Monday his W testifies... .then Friday is the final part. I want to say it’s going well, but we all know things can change. Children Advocacy Center is still fully on his W side, as is the CAC therapist who still feels our son is abusing our Grandson, and our GS attorney also feels that same way. Interestingly enough NONE of those people ever met with our son.  And the therapist who lied in the very beginning?  Our S attorney destroyed him on the witness stand.
 

I'm likely repeating what your Ls are already thinking about.

There is lots of good stuff that is now part of testimony.  It would be good for the therapist to state their opinion first.  Let's assume they say your son is still the abuser.  Get all of that on the record... first.

Then... .are you aware the young boy said mommy makes me... .xyz... watch and say things.  Get their answer on the record.  Does that change your opinion?  again... on the record.

It will likely be long and excruciating... .but anyone that is "against" your son needs to have an enormous amount of stuff... ."on the record" to contradict them and see if they have a new opinion after these facts.

Hang in there!

It might be wise to offer a settlement prior to Monday, something like your son gets full custody and she gets liberal supervised visitation.  Something you know she won't take... .but it would be good to APPLY PRESSURE before wife's testimony gets started.

This is going well, IMO, however... the reason it all needs to be on the record is so that it can be reviewed by an appellate court... .just in case.

Good Ls play to win and plan for loss.  Hope that makes sense.

FF

[Panshekay]

Thank you FF, unfortunately the CAC therapist says GS 7 is saying “my mom said” as his way of finding HIS voice... .she says these are things that HE is feeling because it’s happening to him.  Have they looked at our S wife’s BF?  No, the alcoholic male neighbor who takes the kids hiking?  No.   The fact that our son passed a polygraph test meant absolutely nothing to her. ... .I must say in her 90 min testimony most of the time the judge (and I) sat rolling our eyes... .she was a typical  granola therapist who works for an abused women’s and children’s clinic, IMO.   The judge asked her why she never met with our son... .she said the rules say you can’t meet with someone who is under investigation... .so our S attorney said, well his W is being investigated for child neglect, and you are meeting with her... .T then stated she didn’t feel there was any concerns with W.  Having suffered sexual abuse from my father intiil 13 years old I know how things work as well... .most people that I know don’t tell... .i was a quiet, shy and voiceless child and young woman... .that’s probably why I fight so hard now for truth and justice. I was 50 before I told my mom... .and that was only because she divorced my dad. I never told my friends, no one. My children were not allowed to be alone with my parents but I never said why for years. I dont know how court works, his W testifies Monday, then on Friday each attorney gets to say what they think, then the judge decides. There have been many last minute miracles, getting the first original Judge is huge!  DHS saying what they did is HUGE... .I am hopeful but I’ve learned to be a realist as I have gotten older... .I used to be rose colored glasses kind of woman, but life has shown me differently. It truly is in Gods hands.

[Panda39]

Been thinking about you all week  

Wow! All I can say is Wow!  Lots of things coming out and DHS coming out on your son's side... .Wow!

Things are sounding positive but you're right it isn't over until the fat lady sings.  

It's gonna be interesting to hear what kind of crazy the ex will bring to the courtroom Monday.  If you were rolling your eyes earlier in the week get ready to see your brain on Monday  




Routing for you and your son,
Panda39

[LegioXX Victrix]

Be prepared for a long term fight with a BPD... .mine lasted 4 years

[Panshekay]

Thank you Panda... .because so many different things have been brought up that are very personal which I didn’t even share here (sick sick sick things she has said about me that our S said on the witness stand) I’m pretty emotional... .Friday I had to walk out of court because I was sobbing. I HATE losing control like that, but also hate that a courtroom is hearing all these things. She was always very jealous that I was close to all our kids and Grandkids.

 Our S SD12 has not lived in their family home for 2 years in Jan.  Her room is exactly how she left it the last time she was here. Our S was always hopeful she would be back, of course that was never really a possibility since she told lies that we both physically hurt her... .He finally gave me the OK to start cleaning out her room.  I’m putting her keepsakes in a box and her CASA will give them to her. It’s almost like a death in a way. We saw her at court the first day... .so many emotions are going on.

 This has been a long long long battle.  4+ year separation, 2+ year divorce process, 14 false allegations against our son once he filed for divorce, the last 4 that he was molesting his son.   What kind of parent shows a 7yo child a video of a man beating his wife with a bat saying this is your dad and this is what happens to me if you go see your dad? I have no words. Just the fact that CAC wants to baby step a relationship with our S and GS?  Why in the heck is my GS even allowed to be with his mother at all?  So let’s go ahead and leave my GS with the monster, so she can alienate him more, and put more false memories in his head.  What is wrong with professionals?  His W is like a wolf in a sheeps clothing.  No one even knows where our GS is being hidden.  I have read enough and spoken to enough people to know this will never be over, or over soon. I know if our S ever does meet someone or has another child that will trigger her all over again. My prayer continues that her world crumbles all around her... .her house of cards made up of lies falls to the ground and she will be seen for what she truly is... .a monster dressed as a daydream.

[40days_in_desert]

Panshekay, I don't know if this is the same with your DIL but I have found that the most challenging aspect of other people seeing the truth when it comes to the lies told by pwBPD is that they are so convincing. My stbx has been successful in many cases with recruiting people to her "side" are the lies that she truly believes to be true. It's easier to believe someone if they have confidence in what they are saying even if they are outrageous.

One example is my ex telling my two oldest daughters that I gave my ex permission to talk to her ex boyfriend (my now replacement) while we were still together. This was told in the same conversation with them that I also didn't "let" her have friends and controlled where she could go and what she could do, etc. She doesn't see the contradiction in those statements in which none are true. How would anyone who won't "let" their spouse have friends be okay with them having any relationship with their ex boyfriend. She later told me the same thing and I would swear that she actually believed that I told her that in the past.

If your DIL has "created" any of these lies and believes them, that could be one reason that she has been successful. Another reason that I have thought about is the number and grandiosity of the lies. Everyone exaggerates some. If someone is telling their "story", others may think, cut that by 20-30% and there's the truth is. If 90% are complete fabrication and you cut that by 20-30%, you still have 60-70% lies in someone's mind.

Don't take my percentages as part of an actual study. They're just for demonstration purpose and my opinion from my experience and a little research. Lastly, many people like to rescue and protect those who are being victimized. Especially children. Some people love drama and encourage those who are creating the drama. Others may be siding with the "victim" just in case they are wrong. Since children are involved, it may be the liability as the issue regarding the school and court officials.

Either way, I'm sorry to hear what your family is going through. I'll pray for positive outcomes this week!

[livednlearned]

Add me to the pocket of the Internet pulling for you and your family.

I'm so sorry for the pain and suffering you've been through, including before any of this even happened.

Lovely to hear the doctor champion your son. 

Sending prayers your way.

 

LnL

[Panda39]

Thank you Panda... .because so many different things have been brought up that are very personal which I didn’t even share here (sick sick sick things she has said about me that our S said on the witness stand) I’m pretty emotional... .Friday I had to walk out of court because I was sobbing. I HATE losing control like that, but also hate that a courtroom is hearing all these things. She was always very jealous that I was close to all our kids and Grandkids.

I'm sorry you had to go through this but it is certainly understandable with all the pressure you have been under and all of the things that have been stirred up.  Don't beat yourself up.   

Our S SD12 has not lived in their family home for 2 years in Jan.  Her room is exactly how she left it the last time she was here. Our S was always hopeful she would be back, of course that was never really a possibility since she told lies that we both physically hurt her... .He finally gave me the OK to start cleaning out her room.  I’m putting her keepsakes in a box and her CASA will give them to her. It’s almost like a death in a way. We saw her at court the first day... .so many emotions are going on.

This is sad, describing it like a death sounds right to me... .its letting go of hope for her which is so sad for a young girl who is a pawn in her mother's sick game.  But for your son and his son it needs to happen, it is heart breaking.

My prayer continues that her world crumbles all around her... .her house of cards made up of lies falls to the ground and she will be seen for what she truly is... .a monster dressed as a daydream.

Karma Amen

[formflier]

 The judge asked her why she never met with our son... .she said the rules say you can’t meet with someone who is under investigation... .so our S attorney said, well his W is being investigated for child neglect, and you are meeting with her... .T then stated she didn’t feel there was any concerns with W.  

Just to confirm, you got all of this, on the record and under oath... correct?

What kind of agency does she work for?

Is there a way to bring her back to the stand?  I would want her written policy manual, procedures manual to be entered into evidence.  Whatever they have that shows their policy of not meeting with people under investigation. 

I don't believe that for a second... .as in I don't believe there is such a policy.  Ts meet with "bad" people all the time that are under investigation or even convicted of various things.  They are medical professionals (in your case... I get more eye rolls are coming from you) and should be able to separate the "bad acts" from the person they are treating or evaluating.

It's preposterous to conduct any kind of investigation based on "assumptions" of what they other side will say... or has.

Legal stuff is a "short game" (for you the next couple days) and a (long game).  I think a court action against this therapist should be considered part of your long game.  Almost certain she has malpractice insurance and almost certain she has no business... .being in this business and participating in ruining other peoples lives.

I'm sure this has cost you a lot of money, perhaps this bad therapist is a pathway to recover some.

   

FF

[Panshekay]

First... .i love you Panda, you have been with us since the start... .thank you for your understanding.

FF, yes it’s all on the record. The T works at the Children’s Advocacy Center... .her thinking is off the wall.  Towards the end she said, well i will have to check with my manager.

She isn’t a new T, been doing this for years. At the end the Judge did say that it probably wasn’t a good idea to continue therapy with our GS, since she is so one sided... .and she agreed!  Well it took a long time for her to get that out, but she did agree at the end.

Today at 3 is court... .day number 4, our Sons wife testifys... .but get this new twist... .her attorney has asked that another witness be allowed to testify. WT... .heck.   Can this be any more weird!  will keep you posted.

[formflier]

  At the end the Judge did say that it probably wasn’t a good idea to continue therapy with our GS, since she is so one sided... .and she agreed!  Well it took a long time for her to get that out, but she did agree at the end.
 

Who agreed to this?  Who is "she"... the therapist?

What was it the T has to ask her manager about?

With regard to the extra person to testify, I would ask your L to push hard about why the last minute, because of the limited time to respond or prepare.

I would also have your L ask that after testimony and after cross examination that you and your legal team be allowed a break to discuss this new witness before the witness is dismissed.  What you want to avoid is having to do all of your "thinking" on your feet (from the L's point of view)

Hang in there.

FF

[Panda39]

First... .i love you Panda, you have been with us since the start... .thank you for your understanding.

Thank you!   I'm glad I can support you, you are doing exactly what I would if this was my son, you're a fighter!

Today at 3 is court... .day number 4, our Sons wife testifys... .but get this new twist... .her attorney has asked that another witness be allowed to testify. WT... .heck.   Can this be any more weird!  will keep you posted.

Curious who the mystery guest was 

Panda39

[Panshekay]

I did post something 2 days ago but my iPad went down and I lost it.  So today is WED and we go back to court today at 1:30, this is Day 6... .DIL got to add 2 witnesses after the fact.  Her attorney asked for one, and then got another on the phone. I have no words to explain that. The judge said well Mr Blank  had 6 or 7 witnesses, sons attorney objected,  judge over ruled it. Because of that though our son gets to testify again.

Today our S attorney gets to cross examine. My DIL literally can’t answer any questions, she looked to our S for dates, ya, like he was going to tell her,  and her attorney pretty much answered everything... .example.  So why didn’t you leave your husband?   She says, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, let me thinK, ah, ah, ah... .then her attorney says, isnt it because he threatened to beat you., then she says, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah,  yes. And before anyone asks, yes our S attorney says your honor he is leading his client. 2 freaking ours yesterday this is how it went.  The judge says he knows he is leading the witness.

So we will see what today brings.  The judge did ask that none of the attorneys do a rebuttal at then end... .(his mind is made up I’m sure) but I watched DIL attorney and GS attorney and they both laughed and said to each other, that’s not happening. 

It’s sickening to watch. Yesterday there were 2 surprise tapes from DHS, our S attorney told out S he had to be prepared... .but the judge decided to listen to them in his chambers, our son had to listen to them on a headset. He sat there crying. He is too upset to talk about what’s on them other than to say that his W and kids are saying bad things and she is coaching them. If that doesn’t do it for the judge then we have more of a broken system than I thought.

Please pray for us. Thank you.

[formflier]

Please pray for us. Thank you.

Will be praying. 

You are getting lots of stuff on the record.  That is good.  Take big walks... .lots of deep breathing.

It's not about the justice system being broken or not.  It's the system we have... .I'm  cautiously optimistic in your case, although I would caution you that things are rarely "over". 

That goes both ways. 

I'm glad she has been seen in action... .

FF

[livednlearned]

He is too upset to talk about what’s on them other than to say that his W and kids are saying bad things and she is coaching them.

Do you mean that it's clear on the tapes that she is coaching them?

I sure hope so.

Do you get the sense the judge sees what is happening?

[ForeverDad]

My lawyer said it was okay for me to refer to my journals to 'refresh' my memory regarding dates and other details.  (And no, my journals - which were nearly 10 years of 52 week-per-page diaries - stayed confidential and were never entered as evidence.)  Predictably, son's ex never documented anything so there was nothing to refer to.

However, you did get the change to the other judge - which ought to be a good thing?

[Panda39]

We're all right here with you! 

Panda39

[Panshekay]

There have been many good things... .the change in getting the original judge back
... .HUGE, A different GAL, but she works with the original one so she has sided with her.

 Today was interesting, she said she had no issues in her first 2 marriages.  Haha.  Our son has an excellent memory AND FoeverDad, he had all their emails from when they first met, where she states what had happened in previous marriages, such as abuse etc. our son testified today that she had told him in her first marriage she was kept in the basement and had to make carrot juice and found out she was going to be taken and traded into a sex ring... .but she convinced her first husband to take her someplace in a car so she punched him in the nose and broke it, then escaped. She should have been a writer instead of a mother.

DIL said crap about the CASA lady, said she was unprofessional and had to tell her supervisor how bad she was as a CASA (this CASA women was amazing, and saw  DIL for what she truly was) She continued to rag on me, saying how hard I was to get along with and how no one liked me. That I was very controlling and was very mean to her daughter and thats why she called the police on me for physically hurting her daughter. After that our son got to testify again and said exactly what had happened. 

Judge wants to meet with GS tomorrow, he would prefer not to have attorneys be in on it, but if one says yes, then they all meet with him.  I pray it’s only the judge, I pray that our GS is strong and truthful.

So tomorrow, day 7... .and again ForeverDad you are right, the judge has until the 29th to decide. We are hoping our son gets to spend time with i our GS. So here it is 4 plus years, coming to an end... .but we all know it’s not over, it will never be over. I will say that if the judge hasn’t seen how mentally unstable she is by now then something is wrong.   Prayers prayers prayers... .

[ForeverDad]

So Dec 29 is the last weekday of the year.  While I do think there is some pressure for judges to close out lingering cases by year-end, they also have the option to take maybe 30-60 days to issue a written decision.  That's what happened in 2013 when I spent two days in mid-October at trial seeking majority time.  The court stated a written decision would be issued later.  My local Rules said it could take up to 60 days which would have been mid-December.  Came and went.  Finally on December 30 the decision was issued.  I figured one of two possibilities, or both.  One was that the magistrate wanted to look better by closing the case before end of year.  The other was that the magistrate saw winter holidays were approaching and didn't want to stir things up just before the holidays.

There's a lot of allegations but the good thing is that there's a lot of solid rebuttal.

That the judge wants to see the child in an in camera appearance.  Probably there is no direct questioning or grilling, but the court does want to get a sense of where the child is overall with respect to each of his parents.

However, in my case I noticed that my court just so happened  to be so very cooperative to schedule my son's in camera visit with the magistrate and GAL on my parenting time. So he knew he was in my care and would return to my care afterward.  In the decision later the magistrate noted that my son, then age 11, was more comfortable when I was the topic of discussion.  He looked away when discussing Mother but visibly relaxed when discussing Father.

Perhaps your son's lawyer should request that there be two in camera interviews so that one of them would be during Father's parenting time.  Grandson ought to be more relaxed if he knew when he walked out that his Dad would be there for him.  (Also, that would give Father a visit during the holidays which I presume is still prohibited.)

Of course, I don't know how the court would handle such interviews.  In my case I drove him to court and then GAL accompanied him with the magistrate.  I do know from previous interviews with CPS that the agency viewed school as a neutral ground.  I was worried school wasn't neutral enough since my ex had driven him to school and later picked him up from school.  Fortunately CPS did close that case. That's why I suggested above that the judge may need to see the child during Dad's parenting time too in order to determine whether there was a difference between household environments or even indication of improper parental coaching.

[takingandsending]

Prayers and loving support for you and your son and grandson Panshekay. I hope the judge can keep GS at ease enough to at least show the truth even if he doesn't say it.

And seriously, basement imprisonment + carrot juice + sex ring = crazy, nine times out of nine and a half. Did your S actually have an e-mail with that in it? Whatever did he think when he heard her say stuff like that? I know I missed or overlooked plenty of crazy from my xw when I was with her. Cringe worthy stuff, too.

[Panshekay]

Excellent advice FD... .I dont know what they think they are going to get... .he has now been with mom 8 weeks... .she has painted dad dangerous... .what do they think they are going to get out of him?  GAL also says my GS never wants to see his dad again. It’s truly in Gods hands... .there isn’t one thing I can do. The judge seems to be a kind man and fair. Another thing I am shocked at is our son has to pay child support AND maybe spousal support, I guess you CAN be unfaithful and get spousal support. She was asked in court what was the longest job she had held in her life. She is 35, and the longest job is 18 months. WOW. 

[Panshekay]

Takingandsending you made me laugh, thank you... .all she needed to add was Elvis rescued her on his motorcycle dead playing “you ain't nothin but a hound dog”.

I think he may have believed it. What’s funny is that seems to be a common theme for these type of people. My own father ended up with a D BPD who took all his money, she had a very similar story, basement, loaded gun to her head for 2 months on and on... .she actually took my dad for about 3 to 400,000 dollars... .now that’s some Karma!

[ForeverDad]

We all have our stories.  At the very end my ex was telling my to "get it" with my sister and mother (then in her 80s).  I knew she was trying to pain me as much as possible but it still hurt.  We had been married over a dozen years, was once my bestest friend and it had come to that.

There was one time she exclaimed she felt she like a prostitute and ought to get paid.  Silently I said to myself, "Well, you wouldn't earn much as rare as it is."  At the end it was a couple weeks to a few months apart, she would sometimes hint in the morning that I might get something that night but of course either she would get mad at me for some pretext or she would do something outrageous and I just couldn't want to do anything.  I didn't feel like buying something tainted that used to be shared.

Run my suggestion past son's lawyer, that she ask reciprocal time for son so he can bring the boy on his parenting time too.  That ought to be very telling whether the boy is being coached or influenced by alienation attempts.  The worst that can happen is the judge says No.  And it would be On The Record.

[Panshekay]

Ok... .not a win but not a lose. He has to give her half of all his retirement, pay spousal support of 750.00 a month for 1 year plus child support. New counselor for GS who the judge has already decided on. Both parents will be allowed to attend, not just EXW.   Judge told EXW that spousal support was for her to get mental health care. He stated that at least 6 or 7 times.  He also made it  clear she was not to withhold GS, or make anymore Dhs reports.  Judge spent 45 min with GS where his first statement was my dad touches my pee pee. Judge is reporting that to Detective because that has to stop, she has told GS  to say that to everyone.  Judge says our Son is not a molester and clearly loves his son. EXW was given full custody but Judge is keeping this case so if she ever starts alienating GS again she will lose that.  They will continue with 50/50 parenting.

They will baby step it back with time with our son. We got to see GS who says he is afraid of his dad but couldn’t tell the judge why he was afraid run up to him after court and yell DAD, Our son picked him up and held and  hugged him and we talked to him. He had a long list of Christmas present requests. He had no fear of our son, no the judge didn’t see that but all attorneys did. .  I had told God I would do anything he told me to do so during that God laid it on my heart to hug EX DIL... .ugh... .so I went up and said her name  3 times, she turned and I said I know you probably don’t want to but I would like to give you a hug. I hugged her and told her I cared about her. All led by God.    I do care about her, I care how she parents my GS. After when we all left the court house and went outside GS yelled hey DAD! And waved and waved, so very happy. I waved too. 

We are very happy.  Our son  gets our GS  Christmas Day for 3 hours, our whole family is coming down for it.  Then 3 days a week for a few hours until the new counselor says it’s ok to go back to 50/50 visitation.   If she continues with complaints to DHS etc, this judge stays on the case. He made it clear he doesn’t want to see her in a year saying she wants to move to calif. and made it clear if  she makes more complaints she will lose custody. it’s  not perfect, but we are happy. Praise God. Life is good again. And... .to be continued. Love to all for your support.  Thank you. I intend to pay it forward. God Bless each and every person who has to live this nightmare.

[ForeverDad]

I am so relieved for you and your son and your grandson.

However, I'm trying to get my mind around judge's decision to grant mother full custody yet tell her she needs to stop coaching son for allegations and she needs mental health care.  That just doesn't make sense.  Making custody changes is difficult, it may be hard for that to be undone.  Well, unless she continues with allegations, I bet she will find a way to get past that injunction, maybe getting others to make reports she designs.  I expect her to maneuver things, or at least try, so that the new counselor holds visit at the initial brief stage for far too long.  Whether the counselor is expert enough to detect that, we'll see soon enough.  As the saying goes, a leopard doesn't change its spots.  But it is what it is.

[Panda39]

I thought the full custody was interesting too, my take is that might be her "win" while losing visitation or the judge might be aware of BPD and the fear of abandonment... .who knows.

Heck who cares right now... .a little boy gets to see his dad and his dad gets to see his son!  That is a victory in my book 



It does remain to be seen if DIL is able to control her own behaviors, but that is for another day.

So happy for you all Panshekay what a wonderful Christmas gift!     

Panda39  

[formflier]

Big picture... I could this as a couple steps forward.  


I would see if your sons Ls can send a modification or suggestion to the judge that you son "pay her mental health bills up to 750"

We all know what is likely to happen if the money goes to her.  Yes... .later I'm sure that she can be forced to prove what she has paid.

I'm also struck by the full custody decision, but I suspect the judge was trying to "think of the child" vice decide a battle between two parents.  

Oh... I would also as your Ls if they can suggest language that "any DHS reports must be approved by the judge before making them."  I know in civil litigation that "can be put on people" that make frivolous claims.

For the counselor.  :)oes this mean the "fruity" counselor that wouldn't talk to son because of investigation is gone?  Just want to be clear.

Good steps... there is reason to celebrate here.  There is reason to keep planning for the future as you know that she will likely "keep doing her thing".

FF

[takingandsending]

     

This news makes my X-mas! I am so excited for your son to be able to see and spend time with his son on Christmas. Despite the full/primary custody, this is a big decision in your son's favor to recognize xw need for mental health treatment. Now, court ordered, there is room to put detail in, and she is on precarious footing of losing custody of your GS. So glad the judge could see through the horrific lies and accusations. So sad that anyone would ever be so emboldened and at same time frightened to ever do this. Your DIL is a very ill woman. Now, it's time to focus on your GS and unwinding all the alienation.

Prayers and joy with you and your family over the holidays. You are an amazing woman to support your son through all of this. 

[ForeverDad]

I like formflier's suggest to have the order state son reimburses his ex up to 750 per month.  Receipts, please.  After a year has passed and it is discovered she hasn't done much of anything toward therapy AKA mental health care, there's no way the court would grant a clawback and even if it did she'd claim poverty.  Then again, court could be giving her a year to get her act together or else things will change.

FF was describing "gatekeeping" (LnL got that order from her court without even asking as I recall) where the person has to get court approval to proceed.  There is a legal term called "vexatious litigant" but that is rarely used if ever and then typically when frivolous lawsuits are filed in bulk.

[livednlearned]

I teared up reading about your GS hugging his dad   

What a touching moment. I hope your family enjoys every single minute of those 3 hours on Christmas Day     

I don't mean to project my own case on yours, but my gut tells me the judge knows your DIL will file another false charge. He gave her full custody because that's meant to keep her in line. Meaning, if she does this again, she loses everything.

With the things he has said, and how he has framed it, her full custody does not seem to hold much water.

What a relief that you were able to get this judge.

Big hug to you Panshekay. 

[Panshekay]

Thank you all so very much. They played the keep the kids togther card... .and we live in a state that gives mothers custody. It is my hope she takes this opportunity to get help. You all have good advice, I will share that with our son. I wasn’t shocked over the Custody part, like FoeverDad says, sometimes it takes time for them to bury themselves. I hope she gets help because she has a 12yo D who is following in her foot steps and I have no doubt she is also telling our GS what to say. All you had to do was see how happy our GS was to see his dad, his large blue eyes almost looked like he was seeing a mirage... .he was so happy.

The judge was totally on it with her making statements to mandatory reporters and even had emails from DHS to prove so. The fruity counselor is no more. The judge hand picked someone he knows and filled her in with the case. The biggest issue anyone who was against our son was they never met him. But yet had plenty to say about him.  The last day of court I just couldn’t take it... .I wanted to be in the courtroom as a presence , but didn’t want to hear all the BS... .so I went in the bathroom got 2 large paper towels wet and stuffed them in my ears, went back into court and took them out when the judge made a decision. I am not some mother who blindly believes their child because he’s my child. I know each one of my children’s strengths and flaws. As the doctor that he worked for said “he is the best human being I have ever met”. And I agree... .his flaw is he is too forgiving and nice. We are still very thrilled with things... .Time will tell, and it will tell quickly. I have no doubt. Love, peace and blessing to all. Panshekay.   

[Panshekay]

Sorry, EX W got Custodial Parent... .

[ForeverDad]

They played the keep the kids together card... .and we live in a state that gives mothers custody.

That is a noble goal but, as we see in this case, not always the right choice.  It is a sad thing when courts still give mother preference over father.  That was popular in past decades in the Tender Years Doctrine.  That was a reversal of even earlier historical father authority.  Neither is correct since not all fathers and not all mothers are the best choices.  In recent years there has been a trending toward a correction to equalize things with equal orders.  But the problem remains, when one parent of either gender abuses their position as parent then that parent should not have control over the parenting.

Of course you know all that, I don't need to preach to the choir.  Odds that she will use the support to get therapy are small.  Odds that she won't try to do an end run around the judge's order to stop making unsubstantiated allegations are small too.  Son needs to document or report any violations.  She may start small, testing the waters, seeing how strong the boundaries are, viewing any success as basis to push harder.  All orders need exceptions now and then, after all, life happens.  He needs to make doubly sure that any trades or concessions are documented clearly as exceptions and not weakening the court's order.  By now I'm also fairly sure he won't be guilted easily to let her get her way, it may have worked years ago but not now.

It is my hope she takes this opportunity to get help.

Of course it is.  We need to look at life as though the glass is half full, not half empty.  Doesn't mean she will actually do it.

[Panshekay]

You are very right ForeverDad, on all of it. Interesting fact today. CASA lady is still involved with SD. She called Ex yesterday to meet today at her house to give SD Christmas gifts at noon.  She went to her house and waited 45 min, text, called, emailed etc and never got a response. How rude is that?

Yesterday our son got text from ex saying she wanted to bring S to our Sons house. Our son said he preferred to meet at the usual exchange spot. She said no, she will bring him her to his house. She has no idea that our entire family is here to celebrate Christmas with our GS. 

Judge had asked if she was going to calif for Christmas, she said no... .I have a feeling that is exactly what she did, and legally she  can now... .so on Christmas Day, at noon I will go to the exchange site, just in case she tries to pull something. Our son can wait at his house for her.  It looks like it may have already started... .we will see.  What she did to the CASA lady was selfish, she wasted her time. No surprise there.

[ForeverDad]

Hmm, how might she try to sabotage the visit?  Of course this is the first post-court visit so it's probable she will comply.

She already tried refusing to use the usual exchange location.  If son is expecting her to arrive at one location but she goes to another, what if she goes to where you are?  Would she refuse to make the exchange because son isn't there in person?

I'm presuming the judge set a specific begin and end to the visit.  What if she brings his son late?  Odds are she will appear on time to collect the boy and make a complaint that return was late (despite her being late to the earlier exchange).  In my area the county allowed an exchange window of a half hour, or more if the late parent was stuck in traffic or delayed by weather, etc.  My ex sometimes complained I was late (rush hour traffic, construction or accidents) even though I would call while delayed that I would be a little late.

Sometimes I think cell phones are the bane of divorced parents.  Before there were cell phones no one expected immediate contact by parents on the road or while on vacation.  (Yes, for a few years I was stuck with a magistrate's order that I provide phone access daily even while on vacation with my child.)

[takingandsending]

Off subject but I completely agree about cell phones being the bane of divorced parent existence. I hate them! But then, it is really the BPD behavior coupled with the instant gratification of cell phones that I hate. It’s as if we no longer allow life to happen but demand it happens on our terms in our time. Horrible tool in the hands of a disordered person.

[livednlearned]

Panshekay, I was thinking about you yesterday, hoping things went ok and that you and your family were able to visit with GS.

Seems a lot to hope for... .but hope does spring eternal.

 '

LnL

[Panshekay]

Well that didn’t take long... .today our S text his X asking what time he could see his son.  She never responded so he asked again later this afternoon. She insisted she drive our GS to a public place, our son said the trampoline park... .so she walks in and wants to know exactly what they will be doing and if he is going to feed him dinner... .she is in her “I’m in control mode, I have full custody, I have all the power”.  Our GS acted fearful of our son around his mother, she kept GS behind her until our son answered all her questions. When X came to pick up GS he again acted fearful. This isn’t going to work.

Our son reached out to the court ordered counselor that HE has to pay for. She asked for a 1,000.00 retainer. He meets with this counselor on  Sunday at 3:30.  The judge told her that our son was to pay for all of the counseling, because he makes good money.   Why is it that we can’t reach out to the judge?  Why does it have to go through an attorney?  Everything is about money... .everyone makes money off of family courtvand conflict which is a big part of the problem.

I fear the nightmare continues. I had high hopes. Ugh.

[Panda39]

As they do everywhere else in their lives pwBPD will push boundaries to the maximum even with court orders and I agree it is awful how many people make money off of the conflict these people create.  What is the courts motivation to stop the conflict when conflict is a money maker   

This will likely be an expensive fight at least for awhile and yes totally unfair about the expenses.  I will say though that I've seen a pattern with many of us here and that is at the beginning of the divorce process there is high conflict, high drama, and high expense and yes it feels like it will never end but as we move through the process, and as the court adjusts things (because they slowly... .did I say slowly... .do) it does improve.

All of us had to go back to court several times to get things reviewed, and adjusted.  I know that doesn't make it better, and yes it's painfully slow, and is also unfair but I just wanted you to know that you are in the same boat as many of us here and encourage you to hang in there because at least for awhile it will be a bumpy ride.

Try an focus on the positive... .how did your Grandson like his Christmas with his dad?

Panda39

[Panshekay]

 Love you Panda39... .you give me hope. I was hoping for a little relief... .we got like 2 days. GS had a great time and lots of fun, the neighbor kids came over and our youngest GS is 4 and they really love each other, our family traveled down just to see him and bring gifts. It was a good time.  A friend that our S works with has a D who is 6 and they came over as well.  This friend has been a huge support for our S.

It’s so easy to go down the rabbit hole... .I read a lot, and follow Dr Childress and some of the things that are posted are very depressing, but true.  I see the affect on my SGD, and GS and I think what sort of hope do they have?  I am hoping that this counselor sees things for what they really are.  Our S being 178 miles away plays a part in that as well... .I go down quite often.  Thank goodness I can do that.  Thanks for pulling me back out of the hole Panda... .Blessings.

[formflier]

Remember not to focus on actions of a disordered person to declare "victory" of if "things are better".

Focus on time with GS. 

The ex is likely to continue to act in a high conflict... .high drama... .disordered manner for a long time.  Please understand while this is exhausting for you now, it likely results in more time with your GS (over the long term).

Continue to document interactions with the ex. 

Hang in there.

FF

[Panshekay]

Thank you FF.  Good advice.

[whirlpoollife]

Panshekay, I have been following your posts and my heart is you and your family.
Not legal advice but when your S is with GS again , if not already, have some photos taken of them together , have it enlarged on canvas and hanging on the wall.  Photo books of your family with him as well.  Put them in his hands to see  so he has visual and also verbal reminders of good times together.  So when he's at its moms he can still have the picture of he and his dad together in his mind.  A chip away to reverse the brainwashing.

[Panshekay]

Thank you Whirlpoollife.  I do that... .always have. Evertime we come down to see our son and GS I take tons of pics, have them enlarged then put them in frames and hang them in GS room and our son has a photo wall in the living room.  We also paint pictures, it’s a stress relief for me and I love painting watercolors... .I have our grandchildren do self portraits and hang them in my house. I love seeing these times captured. 

 It has been hard, really hard, and is a huge emotional journey but it’s hard for all of us who are going through this or have been through it. I love hearing from others who have come out the other side and see the light of day, it’s encouraging.

 Today our son was supposed to see GS from 10 to 2.  I drove down with my 4yo GS yesterday so we could take the boys to the movies today... .well, that’s not happening... .our S text EX, she stated no, her attorney said it’s from 3 to 5... .what EX doesn’t know is we know she is out of state with GS, which is legal now that they are divorced. She goes out of state often to see her NPD BF. 

Our S meets with the court ordered counselor today (I know weird to meet on New Years Eve)... .I pray this woman knows what she is doing... .and sees EX for the monster she is. Until this counselor says GS is NOT afraid of our S his visitation time is 6 hours a week... .in a public place.  I will keep you all posted.

[formflier]

How is there a debate about what times they are supposed to meet?

What is the plan to report this to the court... .this is EXACTLY the kind of interference I took the judge to be talking about.

Is there a written plan that all have signed off on?

FF

[Panda39]

Today our son was supposed to see GS from 10 to 2.  I drove down with my 4yo GS yesterday so we could take the boys to the movies today... .well, that’s not happening... .our S text EX, she stated no, her attorney said it’s from 3 to 5... .what EX doesn’t know is we know she is out of state with GS, which is legal now that they are divorced. She goes out of state often to see her NPD BF. 

It's stuff like this that makes me miss the eye-rolling emoji!  Keep the text... .document... .document... .document... .I know, you know 

Our S meets with the court ordered counselor today (I know weird to meet on New Years Eve)... .I pray this woman knows what she is doing... .and sees EX for the monster she is. Until this counselor says GS is NOT afraid of our S his visitation time is 6 hours a week... .in a public place.  I will keep you all posted.

I'll be interested in hearing how this goes too.

I use my Christmases as a way to see the progress I've made in terms of my relationship with my SO's children. You might try and use that as a measure of your progress too.  My guess is next year you will have more than just a few hours with your grandson.

My Christmases... .

1st Christmas - I had not met SO's daughters, we had been together less than 6 months.
2nd Christmas - Dad and daughters had a horrible Christmas together (parental alienation) the pictures from that Christmas reflect the misery   I got gifts for the girls.
3rd Christmas - The kids and I had met by then but I was being seriously rejected (where's the crying emoji!) I got gifts for the girls.
4th Christmas - Everyone was more used to each other my SO and his daughters and me and my son went out to dinner and drove around checking out the neighborhood Christmas lights.  Still spent Christmas separately. Got gifts for and from the girls.
5th Christmas - D21 went NC with her mother.  My son worked Christmas Day so he and I did Christmas Eve and I spent the afternoon Christmas Day with my SO and his daughters.  Got gifts for and from the girls.
6th Christmas - Christmas Eve with my son/Christmas Day with SO and daughters. Got gifts for and from the girls
7th Christmas this year - I was sick   So separate Christmases but the first year the kids got gifts for each other. 

Every year there is more progress in terms of my relationship with them and their dad, every year the relationships have become easier, every year sadly their mother is less and less in the picture. It's so sad that she can't be what they need her to be, but I see their distance from her as them growing healthier, setting up boundaries, and seeking emotional support in other places. BPD creates so many complicated feelings and situations.

Looking forward to next Christmas.

Wishing you and yours a   9.

Panda39

[Panshekay]

FF, our S has not gotten anything in writing. Ya, unbelievable huh.  Attorney is not responding... .our S, he thinks it’s because he still owes her money... .we can’t just call the judge, it has to go through his attorney. He went to see the judge appointed T.  Now she wants a 2,000 retainer. Let me just say I could just scream about now.

 The T did say that the judge really struggled with giving EX custody, I dont know if that makes me sad, mad or happy. She also said she was surprised that the judge reached out to her as she was “fired” from one of his cases because she said a patent was Alienating.  The mom and child said they hated T so the judge fired her.

She said she is the only T in town who deals with PA.  She hadnt had a chance to read anything in the large box of records she got from the court. Son gave her a copy of EX Mental Health Records and  the CASA lady’s letter that sates his EX is a liar and our son is a great father.  This T also used to work with the Doctor who testified on our sons behalf who said “_____ is the best human being I have ever met in my life”. Those are all huge blessings. She also was angry that EX has never had any consequences, she said she will take care of that, she is going to ask the judge for more authority. She is also going to reach our to the judge to get a copy of the visitation schedule. She thought our son hadnt seen his son since March... .it was Oct 31st. 

So our Son had to pay this T when he saw her on Sun. We thought, ok at least our S will be the first to meet new T.  Nope, EX had already spoken to the T... .either in person or by phone. Of course, EX made sure she spoken to her fist. T has not met GS,  EX is ignoring T calls.  T wants to meet with the CASA lady. Also EX would not text or email son anymore, she wanted to say everything in person... .well guess what.  Per T, all texts and emails go to her as well! No talking in person!  YAY!   Perfect. T told our son it would be months, not weeks until he gets 50/50 visitation of Son.  She also told him she would be involved in their lives for at least a year, if not 2 years.  I think we may have another blessing with this new T.  Thank you Panda39 for your well wishes. I hope this all leads to our son getting custody one day.  What a joke when they say our state isn’t a Mother state, that it’s equal.  The Judge gave a mother who suffers from suicidal idealation, self harm, Alienation and all sorts of other things Custody of 2 kids because he didn’t want to separate brother and sister... .there are 5 years between them in age! That doesn’t even make sense when it’s 50/50 parenting time. Ugh.

[livednlearned]

I think we may have another blessing with this new T. 

You and your family are overdue for a blessing, Panshekay 

The parenting coordinator/child psychologist involved in my case was like that. There are good ones out there.

And great that everything must go through text and email.

 

[formflier]

Big picture:  I'm liking this new T.  I think this could change momentum.  I LIKE that she is marking out her territory and letting everyone know she will be involved for years. 

Timing:  I would make a mental exercise of any time you create or "hear" a time explanation, that you triple it.  Much better for you to be pleasantly surprised by speed.

I know this has been long... .keep remembering "marathon"... .not "sprint".

Hang in there.

FF

[Panshekay]

Thank you FF, LNL, and Panda 39.  Although it’s slow going I do have hope. Interesting Ex got Sunday’s changed from 10 to 2 to 3 to 5... .couldn’t go out of state to see BF and be back in time I guess. She got to make that decision and that was it... .the power she must feel right now. I can’t wait until that crumbles.

 Like I tell our son, it’s baby steps. T has big case going to court on the 11th, so everyone seems to be currently in limbo. Ex is decked out with new clothes and bleached blonde hair while S comes with dirty old clothes on.  CASA lady is going to reach out to T, she wants to ask how hard it is to get custody changed to our Son.  Not that that will happen anytime soon but one day hopefully. She is in agreement that Judge made a huge mistake. It’s nice to have someone who is unbiased see how it really is. This CASA lady is our Blessing. Hope to say the same about the T.  I also have a good feeling about her.

[formflier]

 
You may be able to undo the Sunday thing by insisting on being able to go to church together.

How did she get it changed without discussion/agreement with your son?

FF

[ForeverDad]

So Sunday time is not only moved later but cut in half.  If it had to be later, why couldn't it have been still kept to 4 hours?  Does that reduce the weekly total of hours the judge specified to start?

I'm figuring the judge thought he can reverse the custody order if ex makes too many missteps.  My concern is that a lot of little missteps may not accumulate to being actionable.  However, I still expect ex to try hard to keep your son's parenting time to equal time, or at least slow it down a lot.

[formflier]

 
So... obviously I haven't read the order... .but...

I'm assuming this flexibility is granted to her... to change the order and schedule.

I understand that life happens... emergencies and that has to be accounted for, but this seems "permanent"... .vice "my car broke down and I'm running late.

Do you think the judge is giving her rope to hang herself with?

FF

[livednlearned]

Ignoring the judge's orders flagrantly and repeatedly, for no justifiable reason, especially after the judge was torn on how to rule on custody, is what sunk ex's ship.

Your son's ex can only defy the judge's orders for so long before her disregard begins to attract the wrong kind of attention.

Most reasonable people can and do follow judge's orders.

The crappy part is that we are the ones who have to make sure the behaviors are noticed, which costs more time and money.

[formflier]

So... if these changes are "unapproved"... .I would make sure that there is documentation (via email) clarifying that your son does not agree and that he is attempting to follow the judges orders.  I would also document for yourself lost time and expense.

I somehow got the idea in the posts that these were approved modifications... .can you clarify how they were made?


FF

[Panshekay]

In court the judge had suggested 3 hours so many days a week.  Then our S attorney told the judge that both attorneys would discuss things and decide. I guess our sons attorney suggested Wed 5-7, Friday the same then Sun 10-2. 

I spoke to our son last night and he said Ex’s attorney didn’t agree, so it was changed without anything being said to our son to Sun 3 to 5.  What amazes me is like so many other parents who are going through the same thing, our son is a man, who is an RN who at one time had both SD and S 70% of the time, then SD alienated from him, but always had his S 50/50 until W started to make false allegations, W hid the kids several times for a few weeks until the last 8 weeks prior to court.  The outcome is mind blowing. Our hope is in the new T who is aware of the visitation change and wasn’t happy. I really thinks she gets it. Interesting side note is the CASA lady who testified on our sons behalf called me the other night, she said that EX called and complained about her again to her manager. This is the 2nd time now... .but from what I gather they are onto EX W and what she is doing... .we all know Ex won’t stop but like others have said the truth will be shown. I really think that’s what is happening. Our son was in much better spirits last night. As you all know I have been very supportive which hasnt always been easy, it’s hard to see this sort of thing happen to your own child.  I am hoping once the T starts seeing everyone on a regular basis things will change and he will have his son 50/50 within a few months. . I hope EX remembers what the judge said about not making anymore false allegations. Again, we will see what happens. Thanks for the continued support.

[ForeverDad]

Interesting side note is the CASA lady who testified on our sons behalf called me the other night, she said that EX called and complained about her again to her manager. This is the 2nd time now... .but from what I gather they are onto EX W and what she is doing... .we all know Ex won’t stop but like others have said the truth will be shown.

She was told bluntly she couldn't file new allegations.  While this may not be a new allegation, per se, but it certainly ought to be considered as such.  Can it be reported?  Squeeze a balloon in one spot and it will pop up elsewhere.  May I make a prediction?  Somehow, someway, she'll make a complaint about the Judge's choice of counselor and seek to get a less experienced one to replace her.

In court the judge had suggested 3 hours so many days a week.

So his four hours on Sunday was obviously intended to make up for the shorter time during the week.  He ought to at least get his three hours.  Duh!  However, the three hours was just to start.  Any word from the counselor when the time can start ramping up?  After all, with no allegations sustained against son, he ought to at least get the typical alternate weekends, sooner than later.

[formflier]

  I hope EX remembers what the judge said about not making anymore false allegations. 

While I understand that you guys would like this to stop.  Strategically... .for your son, the best thing she could do for you side is crank out another wild accusation... .

I understand what you are saying... .

FF

[Panshekay]

 I agree FD,  I think you are right. I can see her doing that as well with the new T.  I don’t think she is going to be able to get away with anything. I spoke to our son tonight. T has a huge court case that started today. I suggested he text her to find out when they can meet again, after all she does have $2,000 of his money.

 Ex is now making a habit of going  to California every other if not every weekend, probably using that spousal support money for her trips.  FF, yes, you are right... .I just think right now I am trying to focus on my daily life... .I’m sure she will make another accusation, why stop at 19?  I just dread it emotionally. This has been 4+ years of hell. Like I told our son, baby steps. I feel FD is right, one day he will get custody... .but it might take a few years. Thank you both for your insight.

[takingandsending]

I spoke to our son last night and he said Ex’s attorney didn’t agree, so it was changed without anything being said to our son to Sun 3 to 5. 

Panshekay, I guess this is the part that has me puzzled. The judge ordered both attorneys to discuss/agree. Did that happen? It sounds like your S's attorney suggested Su 10-2. xw attorney says no, Su 3-5. What did your S's attorney say? Yes? If anything other than yes, the attorneys are not complying with the judge's order. If I had a guess, I'd say S's attorney sent an e-mail, as did xw's attorney, hence your S being blindsided. I would personally be grilling my attorney, asking him how the discussion took place (in person, by phone, by e-mail), tell him no e-mail in the future but in person or by phone until he gets his hours, the few that they are. And, I do not expect to be blindsided by an agreement that he is representing me in again. I would not accept my lawyer telling me, well they didn't agree at the last minute so there's nothing we can do about it. That is B.S.

[Panshekay]

Thank you Takingandsending... .I am in total agreement, it is BS.  All of it... .and it goes on and on.  Our son told me tonight when he got his son on Friday his son acted weird, and his ex was in victim mode. Since his ex now has all the power to decide medical things our son feels she has most likely gotten another therapist for his son to see. He said it’s either that or she has made another complaint, he said his son acted guilty, like he has in the past when he has lied about his dad.

  I was wrong with what this court appointed T is supposed to do... .she is there to do reunification... .not counseling with my grandson.  I feel like we are starting over again.  I honestly don’t know how everyone goes through all this without losing it.  Everything cost money, a 1,000 here, 2,000 there... .  Our son is contacting the T tomorrow.  Hopefully she can make sense of this because I can’t. I know what I heard the judge say. It’s all a big game and my grandson is the one to lose.

[ForeverDad]

Likely what the judge stated was "on the record" and so your son should be able to get a copy.  To use it with other professionals and refer to it when back in court he may have to pay to get it transcribed in print.

I wouldn't be surprised that she did get another counselor for their son, she may be allowed to do so unilaterally if she has custody now. BUT he as father probably has a statutory right to have access to son's records, including who child's doctors and counselors are AND when there are changes.  That may be an item to add for counselor or when he's back in court, that he needs notification.  Another item to show she's not behaving well as one of two parents.

[formflier]

If the judge has allowed the Mom to still get other counselors... .that (to me) seems to be a serious oversight.

If the judge fired one counselor and installed another, the ability of the Mom to add more could undo the judges intent.

I would ask if there is a way for your L to clarify this part of the order.

FF

[Panshekay]

Sorry, I have been ill.  Last Friday night the T met at our sons home to see him interact with GS.  She was only going to stay an hour but since S can’t be “alone” with his son she stayed the full 2 hours. When there was a knock at the door our S opened it to his Ex, S and T.  He said ex was all “ it’s ok, it will be ok” to his S... .which was ridiculous.

Once GS and T got inside our Sons house he gave his dad a big hug. Keep in mind it was 5:00pm... .our son had made home made Chinese noodles and pizza, our GS favorite, but GS stated he already ate.  The T, GS and Son all sat up to the table to play a game, our  GS got side tracked with a science project they had been working on in Oct. so they did that, then the T had to see the house etc. our son said that the visit couldnt have gone any better... .when Ex arrived she had the nerve to just come inside the house!  The T stayed for a while after ex and GS left  and asked if that is how his son usually acts, and our son said yes, that is his base line. She was impressed, looked around and commented on the art work down  the hall.  I love to paint and watercolor, I had my family all watercolor self portraits! ... .the T thought that was hilarious, we have all of his sons school stuff on the walls and I always make pictures after I visit so they have those memories on the walls in their bedrooms and living room. 

She said she had read the character letters that our Son had given her, and said “you are a great man”. She made the comment again that she could see through his ex and wanted to speak to the judge and the CaSA lady.  Nothing and I mean nothing seems to move with any speed. It’s very frustrating to me. I’m the type of person who likes to get things done... .at work I do all the release of medical records and chart audits Legally we have I think 30 days... .when I get the release I do it immediately, and fax it... .done! ... .that’s how I roll haha, but not everyone is like that.

Everything is still the same, 6 hours per week. The CASA lady has not been released yet from our sons SD case so she can’t call the T, it has to be the T who calls her. It’s the hurry up and wait game. Like I said I have been ill so I haven’t spoken much to our son since last Friday. I want to reach out to the T but am really trying to be mindful and let our son and God handle it... .his ex met with the T at her house on Sun for an hour but we won’t hear how that went. T wanted to see how our GS acted at each parents house. She asked if our Son knew that Ex had signed up GS for basketball and volleyball, our S said, no, she didn’t tell him... .T made the statement “ she sure can’t co-parent can she?” clearly irritated.

On a positive side note our son had bought several of Dr Childress books “Foundations”, he had it sitting on the counter, the T made the comment that she has read his books but not that one. Our S told her that book was for her... .she said, oh,  just to read? And our S said, no... .to read and keep. She was very appreciative, so let’s see what happens next.

[Panda39]

Hi Panshekay,

Hope you're feeling better 

She was only going to stay an hour but since S can’t be “alone” with his son she stayed the full 2 hours.

Now there is an act of kindness 

When there was a knock at the door our S opened it to his Ex, S and T.  He said ex was all “ it’s ok, it will be ok” to his S... .which was ridiculous.

                       

Probably good that the therapist got to see the ex's "performance".

Once GS and T got inside our Sons house he gave his dad a big hug. Keep in mind it was 5:00pm... .our son had made home made Chinese noodles and pizza, our GS favorite, but GS stated he already ate.  The T, GS and Son all sat up to the table to play a game, our  GS got side tracked with a science project they had been working on in Oct. so they did that, then the T had to see the house etc. our son said that the visit couldnt have gone any better... .

  The T stayed for a while after ex and GS left  and asked if that is how his son usually acts, and our son said yes, that is his base line. She was impressed, looked around and commented on the art work down  the hall.  I love to paint and watercolor, I had my family all watercolor self portraits! ... .the T thought that was hilarious, we have all of his sons school stuff on the walls and I always make pictures after I visit so they have those memories on the walls in their bedrooms and living room. 

This all sounds really good, positive interaction between father and son and getting a feel for your side of the family as a whole. Sounds like everyone had fun.

... .when Ex arrived she had the nerve to just come inside the house!

Next time have everything ready a few minutes early, coat on your GS any stuff he has with him by the door.  If he's ready to go there is no need to come in... .better yet if the weather is okay maybe play catch or something outside a few minutes before she is due to arrive... .When this goes back in front of the judge and as your son gains more time (and he will gain more time) with your GS, a neutral pick up and drop off sight might be better... .drop off and pick up at GS school or at the local Police Station etc.  It might be something to suggest if she continues boundary busting.

Nothing and I mean nothing seems to move with any speed. It’s very frustrating to me. I’m the type of person who likes to get things done... .at work I do all the release of medical records and chart audits Legally we have I think 30 days... .when I get the release I do it immediately, and fax it... .done! ... .that’s how I roll haha, but not everyone is like that.

This made me laugh, I'm with you sister why wait to do something later when you can just get it done now and be finished... .have I told you about my slightly OCD tendencies  Perfect for my job maintaining licence compliance at the Hospital I work for.

Everything is still the same, 6 hours per week. The CASA lady has not been released yet from our sons SD case so she can’t call the T, it has to be the T who calls her. It’s the hurry up and wait game. Like I said I have been ill so I haven’t spoken much to our son since last Friday. I want to reach out to the T but am really trying to be mindful and let our son and God handle it... .

It's hard to be a "mama bear" and have to sit and wait I, but hang in there... .clearly this whole thing is a lesson in patience.

... .his ex met with the T at her house on Sun for an hour but we won’t hear how that went. T wanted to see how our GS acted at each parents house. She asked if our Son knew that Ex had signed up GS for basketball and volleyball, our S said, no, she didn’t tell him... .T made the statement “ she sure can’t co-parent can she?” clearly irritated.

Good observation by the Therapist 

It sounds like things are going well albeit a somewhat slow    I'm glad to hear your update everything sounds like positive progress so far.

Keep us posted going forward 

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

One of the tasks, if not the primary one, is to reintegrate the father-child relationship.  Let's hope T wants to meet with judge to (1) move reintegration along faster and (2) speak frankly that her observations thus far have led her to conclude the wrong parent has custody.

[Panshekay]

Oh Panda39, we have bonded!  What a coincidence that we both work for a hospital and do the type of work we do.  Like I always say, I deal with facts, so it drives me batty when facts aren’t checked, when so called professionals just go by what ever Ex states.

So CASA lady has been trying to reach our son.  He has tried calling her back but she has family things going on this week.  On Wed visitation our GS arrives at trampoline park with a heart monitor on. DHS had been investigating ex for Munchausen by proxy but dhs management shut that down.  Not sure what happened with all that.

 Ex has had Gs checked by 2 cardiologists, and had several ekg’s, which came back normal. Now GS is wearing a heart monitor for 30 days... .ugh.   Our S got a call from T yesterday saying ex will bring your son to your HOUSE at 5, then you will immediately drive him to my office (which is across town) after I see you and your son you will drive son back to your house where Ex will pick him up at 7.  Our son said I am not supposed to be alone in a car with my son, per his ex. T said she had already told Ex to bring Gs to his house. So we both wondered what was going on.

So tonight his ex arrives with son at his house, he immediately drives to T office. She watches GS play, then she asks our son if he has anything to say to his son.  So our S says, I love you and miss you and I will always keep you safe when you are with me.  Then T says to Gs, do you want to say anything to your dad?  Do you want to read the list you wrote down for me? Gs shuts down and says no.  So T says ok, you can go back to your dads house and play, Gs gets all panicky and says he is hungry and wants to go out to eat, so our S says, buddy, I have dinner at home for you, Gs then says he wants to play at T office, our son says again, buddy let’s go home and play, Gs says, oh, to moms house and our son says no, to our house.

Gs starts fiddling with the heart monitor, and our S sees that the battery is dead... .he tells T, here Ex is so worried son has cardiac issues but yet she can’t charge a battery! So Gs gets ready and Our S asks T when he gets more time with his son, it’s been 5 weeks and the judge had said to resume 50/50 visitation asap, T says, well I have only gotten all your records 2 weeks ago (which is a lie, when we first met her she said she got a huge box from the court with all the records) T tells our S that he has to meet with Ex before longer visitation can happen, son asks why, that is not what the judge said. Then T says well your ex is concerned when you meet her to get son,  you don’t act happy around her (are you kidding me.)  and until you can meet together and discuss those issues visitation will stay the same!   

Our son says why is Ex determining that?  T says, she isn’t, T is in control... .(WOW).  Our son says he doesn’t feel like anything is changing, then T says, well I got an interesting email late today from Your Ex’s Attorney.  Just then Gs comes back into the office and T tells our son she will have to tell him about the email later.  Our S apologizes for being impatient but he can see this is going to all go ex’s way, she never has any consequences and gets to make all the decisions.

He is going down the rabbit hole again. Unfortunately he still owes his Att $6,000, so he has to pay that before he can take ex back to court. I am perplexed over all this. What the heck is happening? 

[Panshekay]

Son spoke to CSA lady. She has been released from his SD case. She said she spent 4 hours with his ex last week talking to her. Ex was hurt the CASA lady wasn’t on her side during court and felt betrayed. Please keep in mind CASA Lady doesn’t have much experience with people like EX. Ex told her she hated her attorney and didn’t want to go back to court again.  She said she thought he was useless as an attorney, and that’s why she didn’t come out better in court?  REALLY? 

 So, Ex is still playing the victim... .she pants a picture of a horrible att, but yet is still using him... .these are the things I see... .and life has taught me not to buy into anything she says. I have no doubt she will start with accusations again, which will lead to court.

It’s exhausting, there are days I feel like a walking dead person. Although I’m not the one that has to live this daily like our S... .he is my S and this is my GS.  Does anyone know if a letter can be written to the judge and how do you know it even will get to the judge to read?  Thank you for the continued support.

[ForeverDad]

I suspect a letter can't be written directly to the judge.  But that's a legal question.  Possibly if a letter is sent it would just have to be addressed with both parties or lawyers present.

[ForeverDad]

If you or your son can't contact the judge directly without starting an action, which I somehow feel would be the case, he can contact the T.  If he wrote reasonable concerns and asked for a written reply, would it help "hold her feet to the fire" and be accountable?  I just don't know.  Here are some points he could politely make.  I'm not sure how much of this is accurate but I think it's pretty close.  I'm assuming some of this was in the judge's specific statements.  Let son QUOTE the supporting passages from the recording or transcript.

• The original schedule started at 2 hours on each Wed & Fri and then 4 hours on Sunday, a total of 8 hours per week.  Without son's input and without adjustment to expand the visits on other days, Sunday was shortened to two hours.  And mostly in public scenarios.  However, transcripts have judge stating ____.
• Son has cooperated fully with the hours permitted him.  He has had 6 hours per week for going on 6 weeks now with no increase.  However, transcripts have judge stating ____.  (I think judge said increases should occur after the initial two weeks?)  Then why no increased time yet?
• Son has been informed by T and lead to believe that his ex is claiming their child is not ready for more time with father and that is why there is has been no further restoration of his parenting.  Transcripts record Judge stating that the goal is to return to equal parenting time.  Why specifically has son's parenting been kept at 6 hours per week this long?  His ex has a history to obstructing father's parenting time so her personal views should not influence the T's decisions and the judge's stated expectations.
• A new T was ordered for their child.  (Presumably... .) Why hasn't father been able to bring his son to the new T for half the sessions?  Transcripts have judge stating ____.
• Father has real concerns that the longer he is limited to minimal parenting time with his child that the child will become even more accustomed to having minimal time with him.  Delays without basis are contrary to the judge's stated expectations.
• Father is looking forward to the future and wants time such as during Spring Break, a common week for vacations (or staycations).  Holidays and typical summer vacation time is fast approaching.  Historically, father was blocked by mother's allegations to various agencies from many past holidays and vacation periods.  Often these require advance notifications.  Father asks for approval to begin requesting such events, or if currently declined, that the time notice requirement be waived once he does get more time.  For example, father doesn't want a vacation notice to be objected to if while his parenting was still limited he didn't send notice by a certain date as usually required.

[Panshekay]

Thank you forever Dad.  All great ideas. Cuttently im tiring to stay out of the rabbit hole, not always successful doing that.  As you all know it’s so exhausting. Bottom line is our GS life is being destroyed. There has got to be a special hell for that.

[livednlearned]

Panshekay, I wish I could give you a break, just give you a day off so you could have a short respite and shore up some strength for the next leg.

It is heartbreaking, genuinely heartbreaking.

Your you, your son, and your grandson are in my thoughts and prayers.

LnL

[Panshekay]

Thank you LnL. So many parents are going through this. Today when I spoke to our son he told me how thankful he was for this site. He said because of this site he was forewarned that things would never end. Because of that he felt he hasn’t been blindsided as much.  Our son knows 2 other men who thought once divorced things would be better, so when it wasn’t they were more devastated.

 I truly try and look for the blessings in the small things. Like this site and the knowledge you all have provided us as well as the empathy. Through this we have met incredible people.  Knowledge is very powerful, hearing others stories I have learned that we are not alone. Without all of you I truly don’t know where we would be.  Like FD has said, at least our son is seeing his son, how many parents haven’t seen their children for years?  Yes, there are days I go down the rabbit hole, and many days I cry or wake up crying but I have a husband who loves me, 3 great adult children, 7 grandchildren who mean the world to me and I do know (although I wonder) there is a reason for everything. Thank you all for your kind words and encouragement. Like I have said before, you all have saved us.

[RolandOfEld]

I am locking this thread because it has reached its length limit. The post originator is welcomed to open a continuation thread on this topic.  Have a great day.