Situation Escalated: CPS Called

[Guts42]

I received a call yesterday from CPS.
They were calling about my wife.
The very nice agent said this wasn't a traditional call... no idea what that means.
She explained that they've been notified about some potentially inappropriate/extremely stressful parenting methods between my wife and "the kiddos."  She said that this isn't a formal investigation and that there won't be a "determination."

I'm still shaking.
My only guess is that one of the kid's therapist felt obligated to report my wife's behavior based on some of the recordings I've captured.   I just wanted her to know what the kids are dealing with since they've been instructed to not really reveal much to anyone (including me and their therapists).  I was also hoping that maybe upon hearing what goes kn here she would say "oh that's not so bad!  You're over reacting!"  but instead one of the therapists got teary and said, "I'm sorry... this is abuse.  You can hear it in your wife's voice... something isn't right."  She offered to call CPS for me but I asked her to wait until I've had a chance to line up a few things.

I asked the agent if I could call her back tomorrow (now today).  She said of course.

When my wife hears "CPS" she's going to flip out.  Her biggest fear (next to being "locked up" at inpatient care) is the kids being taken away from her.  From my brief conversation with the agent I don't think that's what's going on here... the agent said they just want to do an informal get together to talk about things and see how they can help.

I'm calling her back in a few hours.
Should I divulge that I've called a few different abuse hotlines and am waiting for a case manager to call me back?

Anyone have any experience with CPS?

[GaGrl]

I have no experience with CPS, so I'll let others weigh in on that.

I agree that it is most likely that the therapist, as a required reporter, was the person calling CPS.  In reflecting on the session with you, she probably made the decision that she could not wait on your actions in light of her professional obligations.

You have to take this as seriously as possible. And you need to be completely honest -- to include that you have had conversations with the DV group and are awaiting a caseworker.

Shining light on your family situation means no more secrets.

[Notwendy]

I don't have personal experience with them, but from the child's perspective, I would urge you to please let them do their job.

This is emotional abuse and this can bring things into light. It may also help you with any custody arrangements in the future should you decide to not stay in the marriage.

This will trigger the Triangle. Your wife will take victim position and expect you to step in and rescue her. Please do not do this.

This situation is exactly what the natural consequences of behavior are. When someone enables and rescues from the natural consequences, they continue to enable the behavior and keep the person from learning from it.

Stay neutral  but supportive of her feelings. Validate emotions- "yes honey, I understand this is upsetting" but don't rescue, don't cover it up. Let them do their job.

A report can be made by anyone. CPS will then need to investigate.

Your wife will probably lie to them with their questions. Although nothing may come out of this, they are obligated to investigate and file a report. The report will then be on record. This may be helpful in the future if there are more reports.

[Ozzie101]

I have no experience with CPS either, but I do have experience in government agency investigatory work. I would echo that it is important that you be honest and cooperative. That will be to your children’s benefit, for a number of reasons.

Nothing may happen from this, that’s true. But if something were to come of it in the future, or if a custody situation eventually came up, you want to be on record as open, caring, stable and cooperative. We react to people and businesses that lie or cover things up (even innocent parties who are trying to protect others) VERY differently from those that are upfront.

I’m sure that phone call knocked you for a loop. Just keep in mind, the agency and the person who reported are all doing this because they care about your children and want to be sure they’re ok. You all have the same goal.

[Skip]

She said that this isn't a formal investigation and that there won't be a "determination."

Sounds like they don't have the basis to open an investigation, but they are coming out to coach and seek voluntary agreement to do things a bit differently. Don't be surprised if that coaching is aimed at both of you. They probably don't want to take sides and polarize the situation further.

When my wife hears "CPS" she's going to flip out.

Anyone would. You did, also. But yes, I get your point that it will be disproportionate.

I'd do my best to position it was a wake up call for the two for you are parents. Something to heed and avoid a real problem, not to discount and ignore.

I'm calling her back in a few hours.
Should I divulge that I've called a few different abuse hotlines and am waiting for a case manager to call me back?

I think if you say that you have been seeking help via the therapists and a help line and participating in a support group - that is all good. I'd stay away from anything that sounds like blame / punishment / retribution. Stay solution oriented and open to constructive criticism - even encourage it.

[kells76]

I think if you say that you have been seeking help via the therapists and a help line and participating in a support group - that is all good. I'd stay away from anything that sounds like blame / punishment / retribution. Stay solution oriented and open to constructive criticism - even encourage it.

Agreed. Focus on "wanting it to be better for the kids". Describe the ways you've been trying to be a better dad: "I've been taking the kids to mental health professionals, seeking peer support, and I did call a hotline the other day. What else could I be doing to help them?"

There are ways to describe concerns about your W's behaviors without it being blame-y or accusatory. Now is a great time to review that Craig Childress doc on "jiu-jitsu parenting". Consider talking about what the kids are exposed to: "I'm concerned about the level of anger the kids are exposed to" versus "my wife yells at me all the time in front of the kids". #2 is true though perhaps not effective in this context.

Keep your focus 110% on "how can I help our kids, what do they need from me, I'm concerned about their health, what do you recommend I do".

As Notwendy says, it's no time for secrets when your kids' well-being is at stake. You can be open about your kids' experience without coming across as a finger-pointer. It's OK to talk about the reality of "what they are exposed to at home". Ask for help. We're here for you.

You got this. It will be OK.

[Guts42]

Thanks all.  The conversation was very good.
It's not an official investigation.

I presented it as "I've reached out to these services because I'm concerned about the effects of the situation at home on the kids.  I've expressed my concerns to their therapists as well.  I really could use some help here and I don't know what to do.  I love my wife and kids very much and I just want things to get better."

[kells76]

    

[Ventak]

It's a little confusing to me that it is not an "official" investigation, that is not how it generally works.  I suppose it is possible that one of the therapists has a great relationship with someone at DHS and they decided to keep it off the record but scare you both straight.  I, personally, would be very suspicious of this presentation as it might be a way to keep you off guard and more forthright.

Unfortunately I have all too much experience with DHS/CPS.  My second case was just closed this week after being open for 3.5 months.  Reading through the report was an eye opening experience, and ultimately the only reason I still have the children (as opposed to foster care) is because I got a restraining order and the agent believes that we will both honor it.

The biggest mistake I made appears to be focusing on my wife's medical condition and behavior instead of just the impact of the children.  She generally did not care that my wife was completely out of her mind for 25 minutes and attacked me repeatedly as I tried to calm her down... because it didn't happen in front of the children.  She was concerned that I locked myself and our children in a room to prevent my BPDw's threat to take them out of state, possibly out of country.  She wasn't concerned about her threats, but about my response... which was labelled "fighting in front of the children".

I, too, thought the conversation was very good...  please be careful.  Be completely transparent, the agent found that very refreshing.  But don't sidetrack on negative aspects of your wife, focus only on specific behaviors in front of the children.

And be prepared to hear about the most outrageous accusations about your personal behavior, especially in front of the children.

Happy to answer any questions.

[formflier]

I do have experience with CPS.  I called them in/made the report.  It was a blunt instrument, but it was effective in creating massive change.  We both voluntarily signed a paper agreeing to "comply" with them.  (it's a bit of a longer story, but I don't thing it's relevant to your situation)

I would "invite" them in on a "voluntary" basis, because of course you want to be the best parents possible.

You want oversight.  You want many eyes peering into the situation.  

When she expresses concern (which of course she will), you can agree and validate that it is concerning and that you both will do your best to "improve" your skills.

Stay away from judgmental and bad terms (if possible)

I've also had therapist make reports based on behavior.

While I wish it could have been done a different way, given the skills I had and situation at the time I find it hard to imagine "something else" working.


Best,

FF

[mart555]

When my wife hears "CPS" she's going to flip out.  Her biggest fear (next to being "locked up" at inpatient care) is the kids being taken away from her.

Sounds like it's your wife's problem.  Might be time for her to face the consequences of her actions.   Kids first. Remember that your wife would likely not hesitate to throw you under the bus.

FWIW, CPS helped me quite a bit, it kept my ex on a leash for a while and I got a letter from them saying that they were closing the file because I was protective of the children and would make sure they are safe.  .

[ForeverDad]

When my wife hears "CPS" she's going to flip out.  Her biggest fear (next to being "locked up" at inpatient care) is the kids being taken away from her.

Sounds like it's your wife's problem.  Might be time for her to face the consequences of her actions.  Kids first.  Remember that your wife would likely not hesitate to throw you under the bus.

Her fear that the kids will be taken from her is obvious.  Equally obvious is that she will blame you.  In a sense, she's living a self-fulfilling prophecy — she fears it but yet is proceeding on a direct path for that fear to become reality.  It has been a slow motion train wreck for years but now it's approaching impact.

Here's my post from my own separation sequence of events.  Notice that the police officer frankly told me that shrinking back to avoid the issue would come back to bite me later.  I had to proceed or else I'd be in an even worse situation later.  No turning back.  Seize the opportunity to Move Forward.

This may be a stepping stone to finally getting a handle on your parenting.  Your parenting is being obstructed now by her intensely emotional demands and ultimatums.  Frankly, this was going to happen sooner or later, better to do it that right way than for her to continue wearing you down with endless baseless conflict.

Your kids are suffering too.  Your kids need some distance from all this chaos and discord.  Can I say "frankly" again?  It sounds like halfway measures will be insufficient.  Maybe CPS can step in and set limits to the discord.  However, they may not do enough to enforce solutions.  Face that reality, do you have a capable family law attorney yet?  You should already have one so you can avoid delays and predictable obstructions to getting a workable temporary order for custody and parenting schedule.

Long term, a good outcome for the children will be for them to have limited contact with their mother.  Long term, your marriage is too dysfunctional and too unhealthy for it to continue.  The agencies may be waiting for you to face the music and take appropriate action.  They can't force the end of a marriage, only you have the power to do that.  As a thought and next step, only you can state the two parents must be live apart, maybe a "trial separation" with the kids remaining in your home while having limited contact and brief visits with mom.  (Yeah, good luck with that... but this is where CPS and therapists can support you.)

Short term, there will be lots of ups and downs to come.  Do not overreact to her predictable allegations to shift blame from herself.  Do not shrink back either, just behave as though the court and services system is always looking over your shoulder.  She is the victim?  Then why is she so aggressive?

No more apologies.  Time too to stop that.  That's called a Boundary.  Apologize only once and only when truly merited if you don't want to give her an excuse to pounce on your endless apologies as basis for her to make predictable allegations and more emotional attacks.

Search our posts or elsewhere on "extinction bursts".  This is where the attacks increase in an attempt to intimidate you into retreating from better boundaries.

My police were helpful but not at first.  When I called 911 they rushed over and interviewed us separately.  I was asked by one of the officers to hand our sobbing preschooler over to his mother and "step away".  I didn't realize it at the time, not until months later when my divorce attorney told me, but my state is one where an arrest is required at a DV call.  You don't have to ask whether they cart off the man or the woman.   But my son 'saved' me that day.  He shrieked and clung tighter to me when I tried to hand him over.  What child won't go to his mother?   The officer looked at me for a long moment, said "work it out" and they left.  Only later did my ex tell me, gloating, that they gave her a DV resources handout.  I sure didn't get one.

I downloaded my audio file - yes, I had my emergency services call recorded, with her threats both before and after - and this time a different officer came and listened.  He immediately told me to write a statement and they would take care of it.  (Clearly, having actual proof of the threats was much better than the previous unsupported "he-said, she-said".)  He also firmly told me not to drop the complaint or else it would definitely be worse next time.  He was very informed and supportive.  And yes I finally got that DV handout.  Of course, no one on the list wanted to help a man, but that's another story.

So in my case there were certain procedures that had to be followed.  Men don't get the automatic benefit of the doubt.  Some officials were more helpful than others.  Eventually she went to trial but the judge ruled she wasn't guilty and dismissed the case, stating case law modified the written law to include only "imminent" threats of DV.  Without a weapon in her hands he said her death threats weren't imminent or 'actionable'.  Maybe she was acquitted because she was a woman.  Maybe because it was her first time in court.  Maybe both.  Anyway, she walked out without any legal consequences - though I had temp possession of the house during the case and she never returned - and the acquittal surely fed her sense of entitlement.

In summary, some professionals among those you meet will be helpful, just don't expect them to go out of their way too much to help.  Often they will figure both people share the fault but women get more consideration or protection.  Try to be as squeaky clean as you can be.  Your goal is to get them to see that this incident will never repeat again.  They may be more inclined to help someone who learns from the experience.  They're frustrated having to deal with repeat or revolving door litigants.  If you can get the message across that you understand the relationship has to end as peacefully as possible, then the more they might be willing to help you make a less unsafe exit.

Can you accept that the relationship is ended?  Not just with your head but your heart too?  You can't risk going back, not when there is a heightened risk of future allegations.  "If it's been contemplated or threatened, it is more likely to happen (again)."

[GaGrl]

Do you have backups of recordings and other documentation where she can't get to it?

[Guts42]

Do you have backups of recordings and other documentation where she can't get to it?

In triplicate.
Not sure how much I should bring?
Should I print out some journal entries and have some recordings ready to share?
I don't want this to come out like I'm on a witch hunt.  I just want to take advantage of this situation to start a change.  Things can't keep going this way.

Apparently what we're currently in is a "differential response."

[kells76]

Not sure how much I should bring?

Is there an in person meeting happening?

Should I print out some journal entries and have some recordings ready to share?

Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

If they don't specifically ask you for documentation, consider asking them something like "hey, what kinds of documentation should I be keeping, what would you want me to do, if I had some emails or recordings, would now be the time to share those"

I don't want this to come out like I'm on a witch hunt.  I just want to take advantage of this situation to start a change.  Things can't keep going this way.

Yes. Your kids need something different in order to be healthy. This could be one path towards that.

You can always pivot back to "what can I do to protect them better, what would you recommend I work on, is there anything you see that they need from me that I'm not doing, I'll do whatever it takes to protect them". Keep the focus on (a) kids' safety first, (b) you are open to "criticism"/feedback in the interests of protecting your children, and (c) if there is followup, you have stuck to the plan and executed on specific changes they requested. That might be where your documentation is an extra layer of safety for you -- it could be a record of how you do what they ask.

What will sadly become clear is that your wife may not be able to do (b) and (c), and I suspect CPS will notice the difference between you two, without you having to "go on a witch hunt" or "blame" her or "point fingers" at her behavior.

Having neutral third party professionals observe how you and your W deal with specific instructions to change your parenting will be a huge part of any change that will come out of all this.

It will happen, and they will see it, as long as you put your kids' needs first, and don't try to "cover up" for W or "explain" for her or make excuses for her. She's an adult, her words and actions will speak for her. Let your words and, more importantly, actions and changes, speak for you.

You can do it!

[Ventak]

In triplicate.
Not sure how much I should bring?
Should I print out some journal entries and have some recordings ready to share?
I don't want this to come out like I'm on a witch hunt.  I just want to take advantage of this situation to start a change.  Things can't keep going this way.

Apparently what we're currently in is a "differential response."

On what to bring... I'll remind you that DHS is only interested in matters pertaining to neglect/abuse of the children.  Divorce court might want to see how she is abusive to you... but DHS role is not to protect you, only the children.  And you may be held accountable for her actions if you know that she is abusive and do not take steps to protect them.  I had two attorneys tell me this, which is why I went for restraining orders twice.  Having read my report yesterday, those RO's were the only thing that kept my children out of foster care.

Because I took the advice of members of this community, I retained an attorney.

Because I retained an attorney, I received temporary sole custody of my children and kept them out of foster care.

My first RO failed, because I presented my own case.  My second one succeeded, because of my attorney.  Please do not underestimate how critical this is to your successful outcome.  It cost me money I really couldn't afford to spend... but I am so grateful to FF, Kells, and others for helping get it through my thick skull that it was important.

[Ventak]

Apparently what we're currently in is a "differential response."

I just read up on differential response, great idea... wish my state were one of the 20 or so that support this.  It sounds a bit like an early intervention program.  I know in my case our case was closed even though the agent seemed to want to do more.  Had my state had this program I'm positive they would have been able to "strongly recommend" certain actions instead of "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" advice.  Actions I could have used as boundaries.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.  The twins and I will add you and your family to our evening prayer tonight.

[Guts42]

Is there an in person meeting happening?

Yup.  Forgot to mention.  The agent wants to meet me and the kids at the Aunts house.

[Ventak]

Yup.  Forgot to mention.  The agent wants to meet me and the kids at the Aunts house.

Interesting... is she doing the same 1:x with BPDw and children, but not you?

[Guts42]

Nope, at least not yet.
The plan is for her to meet with me and the kids and then decide from there.  She said that since the "inquiry" is about my W behavior and how it affects the children she wants to talk to them first and then maybe meet my W in person at home with everyone.

[I Am Redeemed]

Yup.  Forgot to mention.  The agent wants to meet me and the kids at the Aunts house.

The absence of your wife in this meeting leads me to think that the CPS worker knows that the issues stem from your wife's behavior. It's likely the social worker will be doing an assessment on your family to determine what services or supports should be in place to assist you with mitigating the impact of your wife's emotional and verbal abuse on the children.

A "traditional" call and "official" investigation focuses on physical abuse or physical/emotional neglect and threat to safety.

As Ventak mentioned, children can be removed from both parents if domestic violence is present in the home and one parent does not take steps to end the children's exposure to it.

This happened to me. I lost custody of my oldest kids because CPS did not get their facts straight and received information that there was an active protective order against my ubpdh (there wasn't). In the end, it did not matter; once they were in foster care, it was an uphill battle to get them back (which I am still fighting eight years later).

Emotional abuse is not as "high risk" to CPS. That is why you are termed a 'differential response". It's urgent, but not an emergency. They likely want to do an assessment and see if they can construct an action plan to mitigate the impact on your kids, and also prevent the situation from escalating into more serious types of abuse. Consider this as a "yellow flag" situation for CPS and they want to make sure it doesn't turn into a situation where the children are in danger of being seriously harmed.

If I were you, I would consult with a family attorney just to get advice on what your next steps should be if this should escalate and you actually find yourself in a place where CPS may take further, more "official" actions in the future.

[Guts42]

I Am Redeemed, that's almost exactly what the agent said.  She said we can go over various resources and plans.

Serious but not an immediate risk.
Yellow flag is a perfect way to describe it.

I just downloaded the newest edition of "Splitting."  Going through it now.

[Ventak]

Serious but not an immediate risk.
Yellow flag is a perfect way to describe it.

Please always keep in mind that they are not there to help you.  They are there to protect your children.  Even though you have the same goals, this is not necessarily the same thing and it is an important distinction.  They may well decide that you are Super Dad, with impeccable credentials... but that will not necessarily be their assumption going in.

I highly recommend that you at least do a one hour consult with a family law attorney in your area that is familiar with DHS in your county.  It is a slippery slope, and I didn't realize how close my family was to slipping all the way in until it was over and I could read the report.

[GaGrl]

How will you get the children over to the aunt's house without your wife?

I predict she will have an extinction burst.I

Recordings during this period are crucial.

[Turkish]

To reiterate a few things others have said...

CPS or DHS are not there to represent parents, but to advocate for the children. I would not also believe that this isn't "official," and that notes aren't being written down in a case file.

Due to truancy, CPS was involved with me and my mom in 8th grade when I was 13. That was a good experience and it got me back into school after my mom had removed me for about four months.

When I called the cops after I suspected that then D2 (now 9) might have been molested by her 17 year old uncle, the CPS case worker talked to both me and her mother to close the case and make sure that we were keeping her safe. I thought that it might be better to go visit the office to talk on person, human to human. It went well until the end when I cringed from an arctic threat, "I'm closing the case for now, but I can easily reopen it and we can take your children if we feel that you aren't keeping them safe." I thought, "wait, I was the one who called to expose this!" No matter.

I did understand the point, and I heard from multiple, credible sources that exposing kids to DV could be considered a crime.

So be honest, appreciate the help and that some things have been exposed to the light. It's hard to know how to proceed when you're on the situation. I chickened out and left a message for my therapist about what D2 said about being touched. I loved the uncle like a little brother and couldn't wrap my head around what D, barely 2, was saying. I saw nothing amiss. I reported the next day, the kids were with me. The T said, "you call, or I will have to."

A few years later, when my ex punched her husband hard in front of the kids, I took a similar tack (after confirming he had left even though she was a worse aggressor) and said, "tell your therapist tomorrow, and tell D's therapist the following day [we had an appointment related to the molestation] , or I'll have to call CPS myself."

Even living separately, if you know kids are exposed to abuse or DV, it needs to be reported.

It will be better for you and the kids on the long run. Yet don't forget that the authorities are advocating for the kids,  #1.

[Skip]

Please always keep in mind that they are not there to help you.  They are there to protect your children.  Even though you have the same goals, this is not necessarily the same thing and it is an important distinction.

Really important point.

I highly recommend that you at least do a one hour consult with a family law attorney in your area that is familiar with DHS in your county.  

Good advice.

Lot's of good points and good advice in this thread, overall.

[formflier]

I can't imagine that they would NOT do a similar interview with your wife and likely also an interview together.  I say this to lessen the need to "create a ruse" to get kids over to the aunt's house.

I DO think that recordings are crucial.  I used an app on my phone that could directly upload to google drive (the cloud).  What do DO NOT want is these recording tied to a physical thing that can be destroyed/tossed/taken.

For instance:  I had a recording of my wife telling my kids what to say, or else they would be "taken away".  My wife denied saying this, presented well and I think it was a powerful "ah haa" moment and "outsiders sorted out the dysfunction"

Note:  They will "find stuff" on you.  They just will.  They did have stuff for me to change.  The critical difference is someone embracing change/improvement and someone running and blaming others   (remember that..it will serve you well)

My habit was to record lots of stuff and then if something happened I would rename the file with a keyword for later search such as "I'm going to take all your money" then all I had to remember was "take money" or "take all" etc etc and it should show up in a future search.

Make sure there is NO CHANCE of your wife getting into your google (or other storage/email solution)  massive password.

Family law consultation is good idea.  In my particular case I was blessed to have a family friend that was also a local attorney.  This person also had a wife (ex by then) with a PD.  So he got it.

He had set up an "ex parte order" with a judge if needed but kept saying that "there would be no healing" from that, as opposed to CPS where they would "mandate" counseling and "mandate" change...or else.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

Thanks FF,

I'm going into this with the mindset I had when I first suspected BPD.  When I was done reading Eggshells I thought that there's a chance I'm the one with BPD.  I talked to my therapist about that.  She asked, "if that were true what would you do?"
"Anything to get better.  Research, supplements, specific therapy, you name it.  Even if an authority only speculated there was 10% chance I had a PD I'd dive into whatever treatment needed to get better."
That's how I see this.
I want to know what I can do better, whether is something I need to change in my behavior or something I need to do put a stop to hers.  Name it.

I reached out to a local familyaw attorney when i finished Eggshells but didn't follow through.  I wasn't ready and needed more time to process before I started paying attorney fees.  I'll email them and see if I can't do a 1 hour free consult to at least get the ball rolling.

As for getting the kids over the to Aunts... it's not that unusual.  My wife doesn't go over as often as me and the kids do.  Us going over to "give her a break" is par for the course.
I'm tempted to just tell my W Monday that I got a call and CPS wants to meet the kids somewhere neutral.  I'll volunteer the Aunt's house... I think the current plan is for the agent to talk to the kids and then likely come over to our house in the very near future to talk to my W.  I'm worried of course that the kids talk about the nice lady at the Aunt's house who asked them all those questions about mommy.

[formflier]

Ask the agent directly about informing your wife and then ask if there are others that should be informed.

Follow her lead.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

Copy that.

Emailed the firm asking for a one hour consultation asap.

[Ventak]

I DO think that recordings are crucial.  I used an app on my phone that could directly upload to google drive (the cloud).  What do DO NOT want is these recording tied to a physical thing that can be destroyed/tossed/taken.

I second this.  My BPDw smashed my phone and I had to get the video of her 20 minute rage off the cloud.  Turns out that in my state recording without permission isn't legal... but the judge didn't stop me from showing it and it helped my W understand what she had done, at least temporarily, and I think was helpful in my RO hearing.

[Guts42]

Indeed.
Luckily my state is a single party consent.
Backed up on my phone, cloud, and a backup drive on my computer using a pw she can't get to.

I really want this to be an opportunity for us to go forward together.  I have my doubts she will.  I think once she hears CPS she'll shutdown.

But maybe somewhere in there she realize this is a wake up call and a chance for us both to find a way to make things work.

I've been pretty set on "being done" but here at what feels like the edge I want to know I tried everything.  I really do love her... but i know my vision is a bit clouded right now. I'm still trying to "save" her.

[Notwendy]

I'm still trying to "save" her.

Yes, you do and this is something to realize, and if it's your choice, realize that too.

CPS may see things differently. One thing I noticed is the tendency to minimize BPD behavior - if it has been your "normal" growing up. I didn't really see my mother as abusive until much later. I also tolerated it a lot more than other people did, because it was "normal" and minimized by my own parents. My mother blamed me for all the issues between us, and for a long time, I believed her. I thought if I only was good enough, my parents would be happy with me.

Because there wasn't physical abuse, I didn't recognize the behaviors as abusive.  Verbal and emotional abuse was something I had learned to tolerate and minimize. The other confusing part is that abusive people aren't abusive all the time. They can be nice and sweet at times and have wonderful qualities as well, but that doesn't change the impact of the abuse. However, without proof due to physical abuse, and with the effort to protect my mother by hiding her behavior, no adult would guess it happened.

[Guts42]

The Aunt had what I think is a good idea.  Have the agent call my W.
I've been trying to make this easier on her and by extension me.
Provided she can refrain from letting her know we've spoken I think this might be a good way to go...?

[GaGrl]

The Aunt had what I think is a good idea.  Have the agent call my W.
I've been trying to make this easier on her and by extension me.
Provided she can refrain from letting her know we've spoken I think this might be a good way to go...?

Agree. Can you clear that with the agent?

Yes, you are stepping too far into the CPS arena in an attempt to make this "easier." The situation passed " easy" a long time ago.

Plus, I'm sure the agent has had far more experience in parents'  initial strong reactions to a CPS report/investigation.

[I Am Redeemed]

My guess is that CPS will most definitely be in contact with your wife, but that they are gathering information first. You're the one who came to the therapist with concerns and recorded proof, so that's why you were contacted first.

I would ask the CPS agent if and when they plan to contact your wife, because I believe that is their intention.

They probably want to get a bigger picture on what's going on in your house before they do that.

Be prepared for your wife to put two and two together and deduce that the therapist called...then paint the therapist black...and possibly go to work on manipulating both you and the kids into protecting her to get them off her case.

She probably doesn't know that there's recorded evidence, and they may or may not tell her.

She's probably going to deny and minimize her behavior and expect you and the kids to back her up. Victim: her. Persecutor: CPS/person who reported. Rescuer: you, and probably the children.

[formflier]

Remind me again what the recording shows/proves?

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

Your inclination was to inform your spouse, cushion the news in advance.  That strategy is gone and out the door.  Beware of your 'nice' inclinations.  Be aware that sharing TMI (too much information) can sabotage you and the professionals' efforts.  Follow the professionals' guidance.

A perspective I learned here years ago explains why you can't reason with your spouse.  BPD is a dysfunction of a person's ability to handle close relationships, especially over time.  People she meets casually or deals with now and then may notice something off, BPS is most evident with those closest to the person.  And she can't truly listen to you due to all the baggage of the past relationship.

In the years past most of this misbehavior was somewhat subdued and hidden behind the home's doors.  Aunt knows but few others.  It's different now, it's ramped up.  The kids need more than you and therapists.  Accept that help.

Expect extinction bursts, demands both for you to keep it all private and for you to get blamed.

[Guts42]

I know.  You're right.
I was still trying to protect her from this.

The plan is to contact the agent ask for their opinion on how they'd like to proceed.  If they want to contact my wife then that's fine.  If they'd prefer to do some more intel through me, the kids, and the Aunt then that's fine too.

I've been saying for weeks that all of this is above my pay grade.  Now that the help is here I need to roll with it not try to direct it.

[mart555]

I know.  You're right.
I was still trying to protect her from this.

I wouldn't inform her of any of this. 

As I wrote before: she would NOT hesitate to throw you under the bus.  You'll see, she will likely do it.  It's a good thing that CPS is meeting with you and the kids first because believe me, your wife will them them a waaaaaaaaay different story, and some will believe your wife. 

Definitely keep covering your ass, record and document.  That means having your phone record audio if you talk to your wife, just in case.  Many have ended up in jail due to false accusation from the ex. 

Chances are your wife will spiral down, be careful of not sinking with her while trying to save her.  I almost did. Then I got out of the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) and woke up to save the kids.  I still have a difficult time with the fact that I was so naive at first, wanting to save everyone.  It's impossible. 

Be careful, but from what I see you are on the right track and have some help.  It's still a long road however. 

[Guts42]

Absolutely, this is between me, the Aunt, and the agent.  My W has no idea... which is killing me but I know it's best she doesn't know right now.

So now the debate is between staying the course and meeting the agent with just me and the kids (at the Aunts house) or disavowing any knowledge and basically a reset by having the agent call my W as if it were the first contact.

[formflier]

Rather than trying to "control" the situation, I recommend you "embrace" it...follow the lead of the professionals involved.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

I texted the agent asking her to call me Monday morning.  I'll explain that I'd rather follow her lead.

[formflier]

Don't be shocked if the call back waits until Tuesday (lots of govt agencies) "celebrate" the 4th on Monday with a day off.

You've got this.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

Thanks FF.

Last I chatted the agent indicated she was working Monday.

More than anything I'm trying to navigate through some thick FOG!
She's been, for the most part, absolutely wonderful, with just a few pot shots at me, ever since my trip was "canceled."
The last few days have even been near idyllic.

[kells76]

The last few days have even been near idyllic.

I wonder if that's also hard for you, in a way.

It's OK to keep yourself on an even emotional keel, no matter what your pwBPD is doing.  Sometimes we have to learn to unhitch our wagon from their horse, as it were... their "emotional horse" veers from 0 to 10 to 0 really, really quickly... and that's not good for our wagon. We have to be the stable ones, keeping ourselves at 4, 5, 6, etc, regardless of whether they are a 0 or a 10. It's tempting to "hitch on" to them, and let their emotions guide our decisions. Instead, we can do the different work of keeping level-headed and not making decisions based on the intensity of their emotions.

I feel sadness for you that it is so nice now, and that it can't be so nice for your family all the time. I know you wanted peace, love, and calm for your family.

Glad your agent is working tomorrow. I can't imagine you want to drag this out.

Thanks for keeping us posted.

[GaGrl]

This is when you need to anchor yourself as the family's Emotional Leader.

My husband spent 33 years being his marriage, the family, leader. He was almost depleted before we married and he then let go of his ex's BPD/NPD neediness and demands.I

Separate your emotions. Separate your personal responsibility for her actions.

[ForeverDad]

Do not be surprised if/when your spouse senses a change and demands to know what's up.  As oblivious as she is to your wishes and concerns, she is an expert manipulator and like many disordered controllers can sense the slightest change of a persons behavior.  Just saying... don't let her catch you off guard.  If she does, gift yourself time to ponder the situation and determine the best — or least bad — response.

[Guts42]

Thanks everyone, appreciate the support (as always!) from this community.

Fighting some FOG at the moment.

Feeling specifically guilty about calling the DV hotline.  I keep catching myself (especially in light of recent behavior) thinking that it really isn't "that bad" and that I'm over reacting to everything.  Going back through that mega thread I started that chronicled my now defunct trip...

Is it normal to feel guilty about this?  The agent is aware I've called the DV line and am awaiting to be contacted from a local resource group.  Starting to wonder if the resource group is who called CPS in the first after my initial contact with them?

I wonder if that's also hard for you, in a way.

Very.  I feel like a traitor.  Like I'm over reacting and am ruining everything.
But then I have these recordings, my journal, and the forum entries here...

My Dad has been a wonderful resource as well.  I wanted to share his words- maybe they'll help someone in a similar situation.

"Your wife is sick.  If she was throwing up blood and refused to at least go to urgent care what would you do?  Instead of blood it's words.  Her behavior isn't normal, fair, or healthy to anyone.  Would you let her continue throwing up blood or would you call 911?

"Whether she means to do this or not doesn't matter.  Her actions are either intentionally spiteful which makes her a terrible partner, or she's out of control, unaware of what she's doing, and she needs help beyond what you can do.  That isn't your fault.  You can't fix this.  The best thing you can do is call for help.  Help is on the way, let them do their job."

[mart555]

Feeling specifically guilty about calling the DV hotline.  I keep catching myself (especially in light of recent behavior) thinking that it really isn't "that bad" and that I'm over reacting to everything.  ...
Is it normal to feel guilty about this? 

Totally normal. And that's how they keep most people in.  Just keep pushing. That FOG will eventually dissipate.   If she did not want you to call the DV line she wouldn't have been abusive.  Time for her to face her actions.  Note that I'm not saying that in a "vengeance" kind of way, more of a "She is responsible for her actions".  You need to do whatever will help your case (be assertive and factual, focus on the evidence) because it's a long road.

 

[I Am Redeemed]

Some wise words from your dad.

It is normal to second guess the experiences you are having. The behaviors are so confusing. Some of us who tend to take on responsibility for other people's feelings start to feel guilty when it becomes clear that our family members may be about to face natural consequences of their actions. We want to save them from that because we don't want them to suffer and we feel responsible for their suffering.

I think it is most likely that the therapist, as a mandated reporter, called CPS after hearing the evidence of your wife's behavior.

This therapist clearly told you this was abuse.

You are used to your wife minimizing her own behavior, justifying it, and you have been caught up in dysfunction that may have been familiar to you.

Have you heard of the Adverse Childhood Experiences assessment?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=280739.0

ACES have been linked to long-term mental and physical health issues, and the impact of them persists into adulthood.

When it comes to abusive behavior that your children may be exposed to...it's better to reach out for help and let the professionals tell you if you are overreacting rather than convince yourself it's nothing and keep the status quo of your family system.

Being the one to disrupt the family patterns is hard. It's uncomfortable. It feels strange. It's also necessary for protecting yourself and your family from long term emotional and mental effects.

Remember that your wife's behavior is the reason CPS was called. Someone thought it was concerning enough to get professionals involved. Someone besides you.

What did the DV hotline tell you? Did they refer you to a local resource because you were "overreacting"?

[Notwendy]

Guts, it is good you are aware of your feelings. Read my post about growing up with this kind of feeling. When I speak the truth about my mother, I also feel as if I am "betraying her" and also breaking a family rule and feel fearful if I do.

Your father's words sound accurate and not like the voice of someone who is also in FOG.

Although it feels like a betrayal emotionally to call for help (due to how you may have been raised) , the tendency to "protect" and deny the need for help actually keeps your family from getting help and keeps your wife from getting help. By calling for help, you acted on behalf of your children.

[Skip]

The elephant in the room is betrayal.

"Whether she means to do this or not doesn't matter.  Her actions are either intentionally spiteful which makes her a terrible partner, or she's out of control, unaware of what she's doing, and she needs help beyond what you can do.  That isn't your fault.  You can't fix this.  The best thing you can do is call for help.  Help is on the way, let them do their job."

I know you feel like a traitor. Those are your feelings.

Her feelings are going to be that you broke a trust and betrayed her. If she has BPD traits, that is going to be a very big deal for a long time... maybe even a breaking point.

I mentioned it earlier - "turning in the family" for help is a lot better way to position this. I think you need to read her in for damage control.

[formflier]

Here feeling are going to be that you broke a trust and  betrayed her. If she has BPD traits, that is going to be a big deal for a long time.

 

I can vouch for this. 

Our CPS experience rarely comes up.  When it does it almost always is when she wants to say something about me "betraying" her. 

Maybe once or twice has she ever been able to acknowledge that anything or something good came out of this experience.

Best,

FF

[summerholiday]

I have extensive experience with Child Protective Services and, frankly, I don't trust them.

They tried to take away our newborn daughter from the hospital because of crazy stuff my partner with BPD said in therapy sessions during the pregnancy. Our daughter was temporarily removed and placed with extended family until we went to an emergency court hearing and demonstrated that at least one capable adult (me) would always be present.

Nothing is ever "unofficial". They are always gathering evidence, which increases their power and diminishes the power of the parents. Have you ever talked to them when they haven't had a pen and paper on hand?

You need to decide what outcome is ideal. If it's the two biological parents raising the kids, then CPS can't really help you. They don't have a cure for BPD. Interacting with them runs the risk that the kids will be taken away.

If you want full custody, turning on the parent with BPD by giving negative info to CPS officers might help. Though you risk being implicated yourself in a bad parenting situation.

If you raising your own kids in your own way is a bad outcome, then welcome CPS into your home and tell them everything.

I guess what I'm saying is that cooperating with CPS acts to transfer power away from the parents and towards CPS. Personally, I'm unwilling to do that ever again.

Your approach should depend on how well you are coping, if you can control the other parent and, ultimately, if you think the children would be best served by outside intervention. This is by people who don't really understand the situation and are obliged to err on the side of protecting children.

[formflier]

Hey SummerHoliday,

Sounds like a horrible experience with CPS.

What was the advice from your family law attorney prior to giving birth?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I think outcome depends on a lot of factors, including the resiliency of the child.

Having one engaged and loving parent has a positive impact.

With a newborn though, it makes sense to take no chances. A frustrated parent may intend no harm but shaking a baby or harming them can have long term permanent damage. Yes, it was upsetting for CPS to take custody but they did return the child when it was clear to them there would be one capable parent present.

But the big question- the capable parent may also be the one who is capable of holding a job and so must have child care. Who is taking care of the child while the parent is at work?

And yes, CPS is biased towards protecting the child. I will also propose that the romantic partner may be biased towards protecting the feelings of their partner. When there are two capable parents, there's no conflict of interest towards the best interest of the child, but if a parent is disordered, and the relationship being what it is, there could be.

Sometimes it becomes a question of survival for the family. Kids need basics like food and shelter and if the capable parent needs to provide this, then they need to leave at some time and try to minimize the impact of the other parent. This is a tough situation to navigate.

In many cases, parents don't choose to contact CPS- they are reported. At this point cooperating with them is about the only choice. However, I am still in favor of shedding light onto the BPD behaviors rather than hiding them which enables them.

[mart555]

However, I am still in favor of shedding light onto the BPD behaviors rather than hiding them which enables them.

Exactly.  Be factual, focus on evidence, and be assertive.  Provide good examples (ie: "She hit me while the kids were in the same room" or "She told the kids that she would rather die than <xxx>"). Kids shouldn't be exposed to stuff like this, so a big thumbs up to all of you who acted early or at least are trying to.

[worriedStepmom]

Gus, I am sending you lots of hugs.    It sounds like it has been a very difficult last few weeks.

Here are the good things I see in your situation
--You have good friends who truly care about you
--You have the aunt who truly cares about you and your kids

These people have independently identified that you are being abused. 
So has the domestic violence hotline counselor. 
So have the therapists involved.

Remember this when you start to second-guess yourself.  The gaslighting makes it hard to question your own judgement...but ALL of these people who don't talk to each other are convinced that something is seriously wrong in your family environment.  If you don't trust yourself, can you trust them?

I know you are feeling guilty.  It's really, really hard to get out of the mindset of protecting your spouse.  You've been trained to do that for so long - and so have the kids.

Your job, as a parent, is to protect your kids.  Not your spouse.  That took my H and I a long time to fully process. It's been 3 years since we actively switched our focus to SD14, and she's a different kid now.  It is amazing to see the difference now that she feels safe enough to let her true personality out.  It is SO HARD to fight through the fog.  Every decision we make it through the lens of "in the long run, is this best for SD?"

This means that you may have to override your W in terms of medical issues.  If you feel strongly that a kid needs to go to urgent care and W disagrees...TAKE KID TO URGENT CARE.  If W is alone with kid and then kid gets suddenly ill...TAKE KID TO URGENT CARE.  There are so many red flags in that last situation you described.

My SD's uBPDmom worked for CPS, and I've heard enough stories that I don't have high hopes that this "intervention" will actually be helpful for "fixing" your family.  It *may* be helpful for getting evidence to give you custody of your kids, or it could be a complete clusterf***.  I'm glad you reached out to a lawyer to get some advice.

We are rooting for you.

[Skip]

Exactly.  Be factual, focus on evidence, and be assertive.  Provide good examples (ie: "She hit me while the kids were in the same room" or "She told the kids that she would rather die than <xxx>").

Just a general statement. How we react in marriage counseling, CPS investigation, or divorce/custody battle, are very different as these are very different processes with very different goals.

In marriage counseling, it's about finding solutions, mending fences - its not about being right. In a CPS investigation is about removing kids from toxic homes (not necessarily toxic parents). For you and your wife, it is about not having the children taken away by the state. CPS doesn't fix domestic problems. In a custody battle, its about finding a non toxic landing place for the children - for you its about not having the children unfairly taken away by the ex. - not justice.

I think someone suggested that having an attorney in your CPS jurisdiction the best person to advise you on not losing the children.  I think your marriage counselor is the best to advise you on how to not have thing s get worse because of the CPS investigation.

Your Dad's advice is spot on. The practical aspect of how you deal with it, is a whole other topic. Be careful not to confuse the two as being the same.

[formflier]

Perhaps some appropriate nuance. 

Everyone gets (or should) that CPS has the ultimate "hammer" and can pull kids. 

I'm in an weird position where I have been involved in a CPS investigation of my family and I've also "led" a CPS department as a county manager.  So I got to see lots different angles.

One of the things they like to use (at least in "our" department) is "voluntary agreements".  Such as  Dr Smith is agreed on as the family counselor and both parties agree to COMPLY with his direction about what is health/safe for kids.

The same is often used for individual counseling situations.

If people "blow off" the voluntary part and proceed to "making it a fight"...the kids usually got pulled.

If people embraced the voluntary and then were non-compliant..there was usually a warning or two (really just opportunities for documentation)..and if not corrected kids were pulled.

However, if people embraced voluntary and "complied"...then it was rare kids were pulled.  I can't think of a single case.

Voluntary agreements were also used to define (in some cases) where kids and adults lived/keep certain people apart/do supervised only visitation.

So...that history is where I come from in advising the OP to "embrace" the process.  Ask for more counseling/oversight. 

Best,

FF

[Skip]

I think we are on the same page, FF.

• If people "blow off" the voluntary part and proceed to "making it a fight"...the kids usually got pulled.
• If people embraced the voluntary and then were non-compliant..and if not corrected kids were pulled.
• However, if people embraced voluntary and "complied"...then it was rare kids were pulled.

In the above, "people" means "the couple/the parents". And "embraced" and "complied" refers to both parents. And in this case, the family occupies one household, mom is dis-proportionally reactive to stressors, mom home-schools and and dad works out of the house so things are very intertwined, and the investigation was stated without her knowledge or participation.

For this to work, every effort needs to be made for it to be "a couple" working together and to avoid it feeling adversarial or feeling like that husband ambushed wife.

Tall order, I know.  Maybe not possible. But this should be a significant consideration and advanced if possible.

[formflier]

Yes..same page and agree, very tall order.

I suppose additional nuance comes up when one parent "embraces" and the other "holds back" or is "obstructionist".

If there is verifiable progress by the "slower" parent, then probably wise for the "embracing" parent to slow down so they can walk together.

The trick is to not agree "this is it or this is all" but "this is what we are doing for now" with the understanding more will come later.

There will also likely be time for wisdom when the slower parent says "I will never do X" and the "embracing parent" proceeds with the healthy choice and let the chips fall.

We'll be here to talk through the inevitable details and issues that come up.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

To use a term from FF the visit turned out to be a "nothing sandwich"

I had the agent call me early Monday morning and we discussed a 'reset of communications.'
"Me trying to direct this is an attempt to make it easier on my wife or me- and that's not what this is about.  It's about the kids and that comes first.  So I'd like to sort of reset.  You called asking for my wife so I'd like to give you her number and have you call her."
The agent seemed 'pleased' by this and insisted that we back track and not mention our chat Friday to my wife.
She called my wife and the sh!tshow started!

The agent came over and met with all four of us.  She discussed a few things then asked the kids to play upstairs.  The agent then discussed the report with me and my W.  It was clear she was skimming/skipping parts... but a good chunk of what she mentioned was NEW to me.  I was shocked... I hadn't heard or honestly observed a lot of the allegations.  I was dumbfounded.  My W jumped all over them and refuted them all expertly while shooting me the occasional "shut your mouth" look while the agent fiddled with her notepad.
She asked about therapy and any plans for marriage/couples therapy.  We actually have our first appt on the books for this week.  Once the agent heard that she took on this "Well my work here is done!" tone and went from being polite and agreeable to downright friendly.
The kids were asked down, she asked them a few questions, and closed her laptop.
"Well I don't have any additional concerns.  I'll send this up to my supervisor and if he doesn't have any questions we'll close this out in a week or two tops.  Here's my card."

My wife has been on a rampaging witch hunt since.  She's been all over the place... from blaming me/my therapist (suspecting that she called CPS because she secretly in love with me) to our D "exaggerated" and then her therapist ran with it because she secretly hates my W.

My wife has made some threatening statements about the kids' therapist ("I want to throat punch her" for starters) but that was just to me behind a closed door... however I was recording.

The big "fight" my wife and I had about my trip came up.  My W now blames me for the entire CPS incident.
"Why am I the villain when YOU lost your co first?  It isn't FAIR!  I didn't do anything wrong!  Why is everyone out to get me?  Why am I not allowed to be happy?"

I managed a quick in person meeting with my therapist.  She said that it's likely CPS called me on purpose. Apparently they normally don't call the parent the report is about..?

I also told her I know what I want out of this whole ordeal.  First and foremost the kids safety.  Secondly I want my wife to have a full psychiatric analysis.  I don't know how effective it'll be but it's a start.  My therapist said that I can request that be a condition to close the case and that since I've been deemed the "safe" parent the kids getting pulled would only be an issue if I choose my W (should she be determined unsafe) over the kids by not making arrangements for her to leave the house for a while.  It's clear to my therapist and then kids' therapist that I'm more than capable of providing for the kids.  I've even made backup arrangements with work should that be needed.
My hesitation is involving CPS anymore- they're not here for domestic resolutions.

The agent called me a few hours ago to ask about how I felt the meeting went.  I couldn't talk at the time so we're talking tomorrow.
My therapist urged me to hand over my recordings of my wife gaslighting my D and my dated written accounts.

[formflier]

Don't be surprised and perhaps it may be wise for both of you to get full analysis (psych workups).

It seems like your T is leaning into this. 

Somehow I missed you guys are doing "couples therapy".  Ever tried it before?  Is your T involved with selecting the right therapist?

Has your wife ever had a therapist?


Best,

FF

[Ventak]

I also told her I know what I want out of this whole ordeal.  First and foremost the kids safety.  Secondly I want my wife to have a full psychiatric analysis.  I don't know how effective it'll be but it's a start.  My therapist said that I can request that be a condition to close the case and that since I've been deemed the "safe" parent the kids getting pulled would only be an issue if I choose my W (should she be determined unsafe) over the kids by not making arrangements for her to leave the house for a while.

Hopefully it works for you, but I asked for my W to have a full psychiatric analysis and DHS did not seem interested.  So you can "request" but don't be disappointed...

I made arrangements for my W to leave the house by getting a restraining order.   Showed DHS that I was serious, and based on the notes from the closing report it is why I still have them.  I had two family law attorney's recommend this action.

Good luck!  We are all pulling for you.

[GaGrl]

I agree with your therapist that you should make recordings and notes available to the agent. I would include the recording of your wife's reactions and aftermath to the meeting.

Be honest with the agent that you sensed dismissal once the marriage counseling came up.

You have no assurance whatsoever that marriage counseling will change anything.

[formflier]

I think you should start a new thread "just" on marriage counseling.

You have several things going on that are really big deals..we need to focus on each of them.

Yes I'm a fan of you "trying" MC...it may help...or it may be a train wreck, especially if you are not aware of things that may come up.

Best,

FF

[Skip]

I had the agent call me early Monday morning and we discussed a 'reset of communications.'
"Me trying to direct this is an attempt to make it easier on my wife or me- and that's not what this is about.  It's about the kids and that comes first.  So I'd like to sort of reset.  You called asking for my wife so I'd like to give you her number and have you call her."
The agent seemed 'pleased' by this and insisted that we back track and not mention our chat Friday to my wife.

Good move.

My hesitation is involving CPS anymore- they're not here for domestic resolutions.

I think that is smart.

My therapist urged me to hand over my recordings of my wife gaslighting my D and my dated written accounts.

Talk to an attorney before you hand over anything to the state and about recording in general (what to record what to not record). In my years here, I often seen "record everything", but practically speaking, a detailed daily journal on a calendar (life notes in general) and sharing serious events to multiple third parties is probably better legal documentation.

I also told her I know what I want out of this whole ordeal.  First and foremost the kids safety.  Secondly I want my wife to have a full psychiatric analysis.  I don't know how effective it'll be but it's a start.  

Right now you are probably best to let her get to baseline - chill out. A psychiatric analysis will appear to be blaming and like an intervention and that will make matters worse.

Its probably best to turn your efforts toward making marriage counseling work.

Is you marriage therapist have experience with personality disorders? If not, I'd encourage her to refer the two of you to someone who does after a few sessions.

I think you are on the right track.

[Guts42]

Skip- I think you're right.
Play it cool, focus on wanting help on the marriage and emphasize that we've got something in the books.

Funny thing about our marriage therapist... it's the pro my W just fired!  She stopped seeing her a few weeks ago after this T called her out on a self-fulfilling prophecy mentality.  Not sure what sort of experience she has with PD but it's someone my T really trusts and just so happened to recommend.

Also, as much as I want to "fix" everything now... there's no rush.  I have the agent's card and can always supply her with records later if/when needed.

My uBPDw will self sabotage again.  It's just a matter of time.  No point in me stoking the fire... likely to get burned right?

So... i have few written accounts (dated) of specific events in which my wife was incredibly inappropriate with the kids in terms of a "rage" episode.  Do I keep those to myself?

My friends and family are urging me to "strike while the iron is hot."  They see the abuse and want it to end.  They want my W to get help if she can and for me and the kids to get out if we can...

Talking with the agent tomorrow.   Any suggestions?

[formflier]

Something to consider.

If both of you get full psych workups, it's much less likely that she will feel blamed.

It's not a cure all..but it "might" help.

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

FF I'd be delighted to have a full work up done on me!  I had a surface level one done about ten years ago when I got my security clearance.
I think it'd be good... might provide some clarity for me (or maybe it turns out it is me!)
Joking aside- I understand this is a family dynamic.

[Turkish]

Per Skip's point about the dated journal or calendar, professional sources outside of this forum told me the same thing. Keep it factual.

Two of mine, best that I remember:

"[Kids' mom] left to meet her beau. She left me with the kids after I bathed them and put the to sleep, and didn't return home until 5AM, logged in alarm system as well, front door. <initialed and dated>"

"Kids' mom yelled at S3 who was jumping and being silly in the hallway, she yelled at him 'SHUT THE  UP!' I told her that was inappropriate and to go to the office (3rd room) while I took care of S3 and D1. She got on Skype with her beau and was soon laughing. No further incidents tonight"

[babyducks]

I'd be delighted to have a full work up done on me!  I had a surface level one done about ten years ago when I got my security clearance.

do you still maintain your clearance?      if you do - what are your requirements regarding reporting adverse information?    is your clearance a necessary condition for your employment?

[Guts42]

Yup.  Still have it.
I've been keeping HR up to date on some issues.  My direct supervisor is aware (surface level) that CPS has been called on my W.

[babyducks]

Yup.  Still have it.
I've been keeping HR up to date on some issues.  My direct supervisor is aware (surface level) that CPS has been called on my W.

Is HR the governing body that issued the clearance?

Do you have a legal requirement to report adverse information? Most do.

For example,  in my situation I would have my clearance pulled if I was in the circumstances you describe and I would end up on administrative leave.

[formflier]

Another reason to keep a good journal and contact info is that in addition to keeping HR and your boss informed, eventually you will need to get your security clearance renewed.

Much better to give them the information upfront than to omit it and let them come back for "clarification".  

I was security manager for a long time and the investigators were pretty open about "up front" information appearing "honest" and information they discovered later leading them to "keep digging for more".  (even if it is the same information)

Best,

FF

[Skip]

I think it'd be good... might provide some clarity for me.

The funny thing about mental health professionals is that they will often loosely diagnose a third party, but will be uber-conservative in diagnosing their own patient/client. They so rarely diagnose "narcissism" that it was excluded from the next to last draft of DSM 5.

Read about all the times that our members had their partners labeled by their counselor and then try to find someone here who was diagnosed with a personality disorder.

We had an interesting event at BPDFamily. There was a thread about the wounded child" schema. Members jumped in, one after another, with "me to" - I'm a wounded child. Then we we explained that the schema triad that was so readily being accepted was the NPD triad. The thread went silent.

Why do mental health professionals stay away from these diagnosis?

#1 Because their patient/client is off put by such diagnosis and goes away
#2 There is no differential treatment plan - insurers don't require a differential dx to pay for treatment - in fact it can make it harder to get reimbursement.

Its easier and more productive to treat the secondary problems like depression or c-PTSD or substance abuse.

I'm saying this to let the air out of the "if she gets a psych eval she will be open to expose herself and she will anxious to get treatment" belief.

Respectfully, the same is probably true for you. If you have a psych eval you will approach it with caution - you don't want to go to your wife and say I'm mental and our problems are my fault. You also know that it could be a problem for you if you have a custody battle.

29% of us have a diagnoseable mental illness. A lot of us are on the the spectrum and have things we need to be working on. Most of us, however, view mental illness like we view pregnancy - binary - you have it or you don't - and it only affects 4% of the population.

I understand this is a family dynamic.

Yes and no, but clearly the best path to getting her help is through family therapy. She will want to be heard and he will not be listening to you in the beginning. She will want the therapists to validate her and tag you as the problem. You will need to sit back and let her be heard in the beginning to make any progress. Don't be shocked when she eats up the clock and trys to make it about you.

Don't sabotage the sessions but doing this yourself - in voice or heart. Tell the therapist, offline, that you are going to sit back a bit in the beginning because you think she needs to be heard and you want the therapy to be a safe place for you both to be vulnerable. Ask the therapist to accomplish this safe dynamic.

Again. Tall task. Her struggles are life long proclivities as are yours and it will take time to unwrap these.

[Guts42]

I don't know what to do.
My w is continuing her witch hunt and is getting aggressive with me... she's accusing me of not being on board and trying to make her think she's crazy.

I'm talking with the agent in less than an hour (W will be out of the house)

Feeling a bit paralyzed.
Worried that whatever I say will be either too much and the kids will get taken away or I'll say too little and miss my opportunity to get help.

Maybe I should just drop it with CPS?  Focus on the abuse hotline/resources in my area?

[formflier]

Be accurate with the agent about how your wife is handling this and be accurate about how you are handling it.

I recommend asking the agent what help they can provide if you "invite them in".

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

That's good.
I am deeply concerned that she is obsessed with finding out who made the report and has spent (at least outwardly) zero time reflecting on whether or not this is true.  She's said only that she's hurt that the kids took things more seriously than they were and that "we" weren't given the opportunity to help them.  She feels betrayed (...abandoned?) by the kids' T (again she's dead set it was her).

She's made lots of threatening statements like "I want to to choke her"
"I want to wring her neck"
"I'm going to gouge her eyes out"
"I want to throat punch her!"
"I'm going to learn magic and curse her!"
... did I mention she's recently convinced herself she's a descendant of witches..?

[formflier]

I would encourage you..to encourage the CPS lady to have the conversation with your wife about "who did it". 

You know you aren't going to solve that...so whatever you can do to limit thinking about it..the better.

Focus more on what you are doing to do about all this..than what you wife is or isn't going to do.

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

What types of incidents did CPS bring up that surprised you?   How would you characterize the incidents that were described?  Emotional abuse?  Raging against the kids?  Throwing things?  Manipulation?

Calling CPS usually indicates it is pretty bad.  My SD was significantly emotionally abused by her mom and her T did not call CPS (the threshold may be different in my state).

I am very surprised your W has agreed to see a T for couples counseling that she already fired.  SD's uBPDmom has gone through multiple therapists the last few years and absolutely hates SD's T (she has filed multiple complaints against him) and the family T that she chose.

Do you have clarity yet on what is your goal for you?  Do you want to stay in this marriage?

[GaGrl]

Pay attention to your wife's reactions to the CPS call, as it is indicative of future reactions. Her behavior may get worse before you see improvement.

A key component of BPD is shame. Now that CPS has been called, her parenting (and other) behavior is "public." She no longer can keep it inside a family that she thinks she can control. Outsiders now know, and as a result, she feels shame.

So her reactions are going to focus on preventing those feelings of shame. To that end, she will allow herself to feel anger and will engage in threats and rages...anything to keep her from sitting with her emotions around behaviors inside the family.

It is critical for the CPS agent to know how she is reacting.

[Guts42]

Feeling a bit lost... but I think that's okay.

The call with the agent was brief.

Essentially she has no concerns about the kids.  She said that it's clear the kids are safe with me and that there's "something" going on between me and my wife but that's not her jurisdiction.  She encouraged me to really give marriage counseling an honest try.

She'll be following up with me in about week to see how the session went.  After that she'll be closing the case.

[Skip]

I am deeply concerned that she is obsessed with finding out who made the report and has spent (at least outwardly) zero time reflecting on whether or not this is true.

Let her sort this out and help keep her centered as much as you can without interfering. The good thing is that she is not targetinng you or the children.

She's said only that she's hurt that the kids took things more seriously than they were and that "we" weren't given the opportunity to help them.  

When she cools down, this is a good starting point.

She feels betrayed (...abandoned?) by the kids' T (again she's dead set it was her).

Let her run out her emotions on this. When she is cooler, the two fo you can meet with the kids T to "solve this thing - treating the kids better - together".

She's made lots of threatening statements like "I want to to choke her"
"I want to wring her neck"
"I'm going to gouge her eyes out"
"I want to throat punch her!"
"I'm going to learn magic and curse her!"
... did I mention she's recently convinced herself she's a descendant of witches..?

Don't get off track with the dysfunctional coping and drama. Ignore it. Stay above the water line yourself. She is not going to learn magic.

[formflier]

So..start organizing in your head what "treating the kids better" looks like.

Especially try to find areas where "we" can do things differently, instead of positioning it as "you" need to stop/start (fill in the blank).

Perhaps focus on the outcome and then work backwards.

Maybe an easy one would be no more "home brew" medicine.  Perhaps OTC medicine gets administered under the phone direction of a nurse or?

Best,

FF

[mart555]

She encouraged me to really give marriage counseling an honest try.

She'll be following up with me in about week to see how the session went.  After that she'll be closing the case.

I must be jaded because of the events I went through and badly regret not acting earlie so please don't take this the wrong way but how will marriage counselling help with her behavior?  Her behavior isn't caused by the marriage, and if it is, her having a calm behavior would be due to you and the kids walking on eggshells at all time and you possibly becoming a caretaker to all the family needs.   I don't see how "We agreed to listen to each other more" and whatever else will come out of that counselling will help and as you slowly step out of the fog you may soon realize that what you thought was a "good relationship" was an abusive one. 

As for the CPS worker, if they truly want to close the file (like they did twice in my case), I'd see if you can get something in writing that says that they are closing the file because you are protective of the children and will continue to do so.  In my case, that allowed me to "filter" some of the nasty communications from my ex to the kids and I did not have to worry as much about parental alienation claims (which there were plenty of..).  Basically, get whatever you can from them that could help later. 

[Ventak]

how will marriage counselling help with her behavior?

My BPDw and I had an amazing couples therapist.  She fully understood BPD and held my W accountable.  She seemed to know exactly how to talk to her so she would listen.  She was just starting to work on me with Validation when things went south.  Unfortunately I mentioned that BPDw's suicidal ideations had become intense.  Session stopped and she would not see us until an individual therapist cleared my W for couples work.  I understand why that makes sense, but I also believe my W would be in a much better place today if it had continued.

As for the CPS worker, if they truly want to close the file (like they did twice in my case), I'd see if you can get something in writing that says that they are closing the file because you are protective of the children and will continue to do so.

The DHS agent in my case went out of her way to help me get a copy of the report after closing.  There were a number of things she wanted me to understand, and I'm grateful she did.  They are legally obligated to give you a copy if you ask, and there is likely a webpage on their site that will let you request one.