Giving in to ex-H too easily regarding child's school?

[Mommeredith81]

Hi all. Here's my situation in a nutshell. (BTW, I was on these boards years ago, but forgot my login so I started anew - I'm a mom of elementary-age kids; my ex-H has BPD and can become erratic although he's been pretty ok the last few months).

So my daughter fell in love with a local private school a year ago. It specializes in some subjects she truly loves. I wasn't sure exH would go for it  but I told him a little about it as she started applying, and he seemed happy about it. And it stayed that way for months. Brought it up with coparenting counselor and he was still ok with it, and he helped in the application process.

I told my daughter she can try it for a year if they give us enough money. It's close to us and similar hours to her current school.

Anyway, she did a trial day and loves the kids, building, and subjects.

We got a generous financial aid package. Still, ex lost job recently. Suddenly he's saying no, he doesn't think she should go, he can barely afford his expenses.

Now, I know a privvy school sounds extravagant, and she's in a pretty good public school now. But I know for her, she was excited about this place. Yet, I don't think I could get him to say yes. I could offer to pay the remaining tuition (I could do it) but I know from past experience, there's no use pushing him.  I could also (and probably will) call our PC for advice. But I'm not going to fight this in court.

I guess I feel nervous pushing for this because it *is* a big change. It's not like a trip or camp. It's for at least a year.

I think it's a generous award and not sure why he got worried about it, but I can see his side, as I'd be a bit nervous about money too. But I can find money.

I told my daughter that we probably can't afford it right now. I have a week to give them an answer. She was crying and she said I ruined her life. (Exaggeration, sure, but I also feel like maybe I should have gotten ex to commit with the pc, not taken it for granted based on his going along with it. So it is partially on me. And I am *not* going to tell her the truth about ex. She's a pre teen)

I asked him if he wants to discuss pros and cons, etc. or discuss with PC. He said nope, it's not feasible.

I have bounced this off a few friends. One says I should talk to the PC, then make a decision. Another said I'm not making the right choice for my daughter because I'm intimidated. Yes, I am...because I don't want him to resent our daughter, or be anxious for the next year. I've dealt with him when anxious and triggered and it makes life very unpleasant. For the last year, he's been ok, and I'm worried about messing that up.

One thing he's right about is, paying the remainder of tuition would be a bit of a struggle, but if it's just for a year (to try it out) I think it'd be fine.

You folks understand. What would you do? Am I being a terrible mother who's just giving in? I don't want my kid to look back 10 years from now and remember that I denied her this. And she's not in a terrible school. But this is indeed a chance for her to try a new, engaging learning environment.

I feel like this isn't a life or death thing so I wouldn't go to court. Before I say no, I will probably email him one more time to see if he's sure, and what his concerns are. But I am leaning toward no if that's how he feels. It'd be too big a fight. All thoughts and ideas welcome.

PS I Have fought him on some things before. I guess I don't feel as confident on this one, like I'm asking too much.

[CoherentMoose]

I am a HUGE fan of private schools.  One of my few regrets was not biting the bullet and challenging my children more in HS.  My brother put all four of his children through private Catholic prep academy's and all four of his children earned their Bachelors in only three years.  All four earned Master's degrees their fourth year in college.  It's a big investment I know.  Just my two cents worth.
CoMo

[GaGrl]

I would push for the new school. Your child is enthusiastic.

Who has final decision-making on  education -- must it be joint, or can you move forward?

[ForeverDad]

When I arrived at court on Trial Day — the entire day was reserved with our magistrate — I was greeted with the news that my ex was ready to settle, she couldn't keep kicking the can (her favorable temp order) down the road any more.

We already knew what the Custody Evaluator had initially recommended in his report to the court... Shared Parenting with equal custody and equal parenting time.  I set my red line at just one item or else we would start the trial... my single additional term was that I would be the "residential parent" responsible for school matters.

Of course she had expected that she would be in charge of school and "her" child's residency as often happens.  However, I knew that she was likely to move a few times (and she did) and I didn't relish the thought of following her around to different schools.  Also, I knew that if she were the residential parent, the school would default to speaking with her, with me on the proverbial outside looking in.

It was a bitter pill for her to swallow, she begged and cried.  Both lawyers insisted my stance was intangible and didn't mean anything.  But I proved them wrong.  When the final decree was issued there were only 3 months left of the school year and I got her school to agree to "open enrollment" so he could finish kindergarten there.  Well, she made scenes at school and in a few weeks her school notified me I had one day to register him in my school.  If she was the parent handling school as before, they couldn't have done anything and would have suffered with her interference.  But with about 5 weeks left of the school year, they dumped her like a hot potato.

[Mommeredith81]

Thank you all for your insight.
I can enroll her and would likely win a legal fight, but that's not the way to go in my case, I think.
I'm not sure I have the stomach to make this change and have him use it against me for a year or more: "You enrolled her in a new school against my wishes."
He takes the kids every other weekend so we need to be close to on the same page.

[Mommeredith81]

Anyway, would love more thoughts if anyone has them.

[GaGrl]

What is best for the child?

[kells76]

Does he have any objection(s) besides financial?

For example, would the private school be a longer drive for him to pick up kids for his time, even if it's not a big change for your house?

Would the school require "parent volunteer hours" that he may not wish to or be able to do?

Is it a religious school and does he object to that?

And here's a big one... yes, you personally can cover the gap in $ for one child for one year... I think you mentioned you have two kids? Will your second kid also want to go here in the future? Would their dad be required (or would you be asking him) to cover more tuition down the road, even if it's not now?

This gets touchy because I would say it's a fair concern even though he's disordered. What if your D loves the school after the one year trial, and next year's financial aid package is a little less? This puts both of you parents in a position where it'd be too easy for blame to come up, and I know you don't want that impacting your kids.

I ask all this because we are in a similar situation except it's my DH's kids' mom who has disordered traits and has decision-making for schools. It makes a big difference for the decision-making parent to make a genuine effort to understand and compromise with the non-decision making parent in these big areas. And, if you can show in a documented way (emails etc) that you are treating your kids' dad respectfully and making some compromises, then if it does progress to a legal fight, you'll have a clean conscience because you'll know you did everything you could to have both of you on board for the kids.

So, drilling down to details, here are some areas where I'd propose compromises and offer really detailed longer term plans:

-Offer to cover a little more of transportation to/from school for his parenting time. No, you don't have to offer to cover all transportation, but the different school location may impact his ability to pick up/drop off, who knows. I would say look at what you can realistically "do extra" and offer that. He actually may not take you up on that, and may want to keep pick up/drop off as time with the kids, but it's an olive branch that says "yes, changing schools might change logistics for you, and I recognize that". I would see offering that as a win-win. Also, if you have family/friends in town, you could see if they want to cover transport for one day a week or every other week, if you can't, and if that helps the kids on their dad's time. Again, he may decline, but it's the offer that shows you recognize that changing schools impacts parents as well as kids.

-Sketch out a proposal for which parent is responsible for which $ even after the "one year trial". Also, be really ready to look at yourself and what you can actually do, and consider if you could actually go through with pulling the plug after one year. Yes, that's the compromise with your D, but one year in a new school for a preteen, and she'd be making a LOT of connections, and it'd be even harder to pull her out then than now. So, is it truly, truly a "one year trial'? I would suggest outlining a plan for "if" it continues past one year. Will you ever be asking him to contribute any $? I think it's fair to look at what you individually can do no matter what he does/doesn't contribute. I would hate for your family to get in the position of: D LOVES the school after one year and wants to continue. You did technically say it was a trial, but now she is really invested. You had the $ to cover 1 year, true, but now she wants to finish school there, and the aid $ went down a little. So, you turn to your kids' dad, who says "I never said I could help with more $ than child support". This creates a huge amount of potential for blame, conflict, and tension. You'd like to team up with him for the kids' sake, but he feels manipulated (or whatever), but if he says No he's the bad guy, but if you can't help D go back to school YOU'RE the bad guy.

I would really recommend coming up with a budget proposal for "if" she continues, so that you can show your kids' dad "OK, I've thought this through, and if she AND her sibling both want to go, here is about how much the school would cover every year, and here is how much I am contributing. The kids will need to write scholarship essays for years 3 & 4 to cover the difference if they are really invested. Your contribution under this plan is $0 per year; if you want to be part of making this thing happen for them which they love, let me know. Yearly application fees are $50 per kid per year, so let me know by July 1st each year if you want to cover that for them".

...

I think clarity, openness, genuine compromise offers, and a concrete outline of "who would pay for what" will be the way to go as you navigate making this happen. Nutshell version is: if it were me, I'd plan out how it'd look if D did ALL her schooling there, I'd plan for me covering ALL $ and NO contribution from him, I'd offer areas where he could "be the hero" for the kids if he wants (i.e. offer areas where even though you could cover it, he could too and you both would say "Dad covered your sports fee so yay, we both support you doing the sport"), and I'd offer some transportation compromises. I'd maybe do one more "fishing" email to confirm he has no issue with any religious or volunteer obligation with the school, and I'd do a final BIFF "decide and inform" email after all that.

Hope that helps...

kells76

[Mommeredith81]

Thank you, Kells. I'm glad you truly understand the situation I'm in, and the finer points. The more I tell him sometimes, the more disordered he gets, but you are right that even though he's disordered, these can be valid concerns. And I am careful about giving desperate compromises (like saying it's only one year, which you make a good point about - that kicks the can down the road and could cause conflict next year -- thank you for pointing that out. There is a difference between good compromises and compromises that cause problems later).

And definitely I don't want him feeling manipulated about this, as he has felt that way about other things. If it's a short term thing I can pull it off, but this is school and I also feel like he may resent our daughter.

Your idea is worthwhile, I may tell him more about my thoughts (which I should have done earlier) and ask if he has geniune concerns besides money. My guess is that he's going to mention some of your issues. She needs zero transportation (it's next to her other school and we'd walk there) so that's not a concern. There would be more homework probably, but if she's willing to do it, that's ok.

I am set to have to say no, but daughter is going to be pretty angry at me and sad for a while, especially since we pass this school, and that hurts too. We can apply again next year but I'm not sure if we'd look flaky if we do that?

Anyway, I have to decide by Monday so any other thoughts would be appreciated. I'm feeling like a bad mom for even letting her think she could go, and for not getting a clear answer from him in our PC meeting in Feb.

[kells76]

I may tell him more about my thoughts (which I should have done earlier) and ask if he has geniune concerns besides money. My guess is that he's going to mention some of your issues. She needs zero transportation (it's next to her other school and we'd walk there) so that's not a concern. There would be more homework probably, but if she's willing to do it, that's ok.

Makes sense to try to get these issues in writing before the deadline. I wonder if you could phrase it something like:

"We've mostly focused on the financial side; I'd like to hear if you have any concerns about the volunteer hours or the religious instruction at the school. Let me know by 6pm this Sunday; if I don't hear back, I'll assume we're on the same page about volunteering and Mass, and that we can move forward with enrollment and finances according to the outline we already looked at (attached) where I cover 100% of tuition. Stay healthy; Mommeredith81"

Notice using "we" a few times -- this gives it a feel of "equal footing" versus "me telling you how it's gonna go". There's also a "deadline" where even if he doesn't respond... no response is a response that frees you to move forward. You don't have to beg him for an answer. You keep it short and end with a "pleasant and professional" closing.

I would lean away from trying to "explain" anything. Disordered people often "double down" on their emotional resistance when they sense they're being "explained to" or something is being "justified" to them. Another way of looking at it is: he's an adult. He doesn't need preemptive explanations of "why D would really love it here" or "why I think this is better than the other school". Keep it to brief statements that are forward-focused. If he wants clarification he can ask. OK, yes, this is treating him like he's not disordered, but there's a sense in which that can work -- don't overfunction for him by explaining things that he is capable of asking about himself. The feeling of the process of explanation can set off pwBPD -- like we talk about here, avoid JADE-ing, as that can escalate conflicts -- so keep the process brief and simple, and don't let a feeling of "if I could just explain the content more, then things would go better" push you towards JADE.

I am set to have to say no... We can apply again next year but I'm not sure if we'd look flaky if we do that?

I might be missing something... so you would have to say No this year, but could say Yes next year? I think I missed if you are "tiebreaker" or "decision maker" on school? Is the "having to say No this year" because you legally cannot make the final decision, or because there might be conflict if you said Yes? Is the "no this year/yes next year" in anticipation of something happening/getting clarified between this application deadline and the next one? Sorry if I am a little foggy...

I think that's the biggest logistical question from me... is the hurdle that you legally cannot send her there if he doesn't agree (i.e. joint custody)? Or that you DO have tiebreaker on education, but there would be conflict if you did that?

[Mommeredith81]

We've never really established tiebreaker status, probably mostly because we talk things through with our PC, and my kids have been in the same school a while.

Legally we'd probably both have to agree, and yes, I'm worried about his reactions if I do something this big without his agreement.

The letter you suggested works well, but this is a big thing (and September is a long while away) so I'd rather try to get him on the same page. I agree that fewer words are better.

The difference with applying next year would be, I think I could talk to him with our PC and get him to agree that if X and Y are met, we can apply again. Like, if we reapply in November and he feels more comfortable with his and my financial status. More importantly, my kid would start middle school that year so she'd be switching schools anyway, so I somehow think that provides me with more license to choose.

[Mommeredith81]

I have been dropping hints to daughter that she may not go, and she's upset with me. She catastrophizes things anyway, but now says I ruined her life. I don't want her complaining to her dad and getting on his bad side. It is partly my fault for showing her this shiny school she now can't attend. I think she will be ok staying at her current school, but I do wish I'd figured this all out earlier or not even showed her the possibility of this other school.

Anyway, a friend said I let him intimidate me too much, but I'm also aware that I've been lucky in the last few years that my kids are healthy and safe and he hasn't bothered with us much. I also know my daughter's public school is safe if he ever became disordered and caused a problem.

Now I just feel bad that my daughter is sad about not going to this place. But I just have to kind of take that.

[kells76]

I really feel where you're coming from; it's so hard trying to get "same page" agreement from a disordered person on something that the kids would like. And inevitably those times come where you feel like you've deeply let down your child. It's painful for you and for your kiddo.

I wonder how it would go for you find some areas of this whole thing where you and your D are having a similar experience, and to share that with her -- to jumpstart a conversation that contextualizes this in a bigger picture: "You were feeling really excited about this possibility; I was, too. We both wanted to make it happen as fast as we could, didn't we. I wish we hadn't run into the reality that we needed more time to do the process, that it was a little more complicated than we thought. I wonder if you're still feeling disappointed about how it went?"

Maybe in the background you can still do some legwork on what it would take to enroll her for middle school -- like you said, it'd be a natural transition point, and it gives you more breathing room to really see if you and your D's dad can work together on this; or, at least, if you can legally move ahead without obstruction. It's tricky, though, deciding whether to share with D that even though this year didn't work out, you're still willing to give it one more shot for next year -- plus side could be that it's honest, you are willing to try for next year because realistically that's the time frame you need to work out logistics. The minus side though would be doing this whole process again, of her getting excited and hopeful when there's no guarantee that it'll happen. So I'm 50/50 on that idea (of sharing with her that you'll give it one more go).

This is hard stuff, and especially with a separated family structure, having disappointed kids isn't "just" sad/frustrating, there's this whole other level of drama that gets pulled in.

Can I ask, do you and/or the kids do any counseling? On the one hand, this situation is "broadly normal" -- it happens all the time that a parent thinks something will work, tells the kid Yes, then there's new info, and you have to tell the kid No. So there's nothing "abnormal" about it that inherently merits counseling. That being said, again, you're in this separated family structure with a likely disordered other parent. Extra support and a neutral third party can be crucial to walking you through "normal" life stuff that is so often escalated in intensity because of your context.

Keep us posted on how things are going;

kells76

[Mommeredith81]

Thanks Kells. Sometimes I wonder if my perspective is way off. Did I fantasize that she could go to a private school based on, well, fantasy? She got in, so clearly I wasn't off base, and if it were just up to me, I'd send her. Which is something to consider. Howwwwever, I have to factor in his disordered response, now or potentially. And the fact that deep down, I'm personally slightly more at ease with her staying in her current place -- but that also could come from being a bit afraid of him. Tell me honestly, do I sound like a disordered person myself? I should be glad both kids are healthy when I know moms taking care of sick kids, etc.

All of that said - yes I am trying to empathize with her. Her reaction was, "But you're the one doing this." I can't argue with that. This isn't like canceling a vacation. I think since we live so close to the school I probably brought it up more than I should have, over months. I also probably was semi-careful, but not enough.

[Mommeredith81]

GaGrl, sorry I missed your response earlier, "What is best for the child." That is a good question and one I may need help working out too. The answer is kind of 50/50. She's very upset at me for potentially not sending her to this new school she likes - they have an art studio, offer French, which she wants to learn, and she likes the structure. (She's a pre-teen so she doesn't always get what she wants, but sometimes...) I should have made it clearer to her early on that we weren't sure we could afford the school. So it may break her heart not to go, and she'll keep bringing it up and feeling really bad. We have to pass the school on her way to her regular school almost every day. So she is going to feel grief if she doesn't get to go. She did a trial day and loved it, which I think is making all this worse. Before that, she was a bit on the fence. That doesn't actually answer your question though...
Having her in a situation where her dad is angry isn't best for her. The school she's in now is a nice enough public school where she's been for years. She's been having drama with all her friends (which I think girls are doing a lot at this age) and likes the idea of starting fresh. But she also has to learn to get along. There's no bullying going on, just a bunch of sassy girls, and she's one of them. They mouth off to each other and are very sarcastic. If she goes back to her current school next year, she may gravitate toward new friends. I don't think that's bad.

I guess I'm working through all of this myself -- and my ex's disorder isn't helping. I should be working this out with him, but he gets so black and white (typical) that he may just say "She's never going." and that's that. And that's not fair.
She has 1 more year in current school, then will go on to public middle school, and this new school would be a good option THEN, but there will be less spaces avail if we wait a year, and ex may be more against it rather than less against it as an option. He'd have to give them his updated financials and may not be willing to do that again.
I wish I knew what will hurt her more: Breaking her heart, or fighting to send her and having ex be disordered about money.
She'll get a decent education either place, but probably will shine more at new school. But it's only 5th grade, so it's not like the one year will impact the rest of her life. To her it does, though.
Kells' telling me I should remind her it was a rushed process...that helps a bit. Back in Oct when we had to apply, I had no idea how it would all turn out. Who can know a year in advance?
One more wrinkle is that they offer summer programs in their art studio, and she could take those and not *go* to the school. But she told me that might make her feel worse.

[Mommeredith81]

Now I'm mad at myself for ever starting the whole thing. Each year, I have to struggle with ex to make sure the kids can stay on my health insurance. Do we need one more thing to fight about each year? He'll have to fill out these financial forms each year and likely that's what's bothering him. And he's required to. Private school is sort of like paying for college 10 years early. We're not in that position. Maybe I got a bit too complacent.

[Notwendy]

I think it might help to know that as a 9 year old, there is no way she can fully comprehend what is involved in attending a new school and also a private school.

All schools have middle school social drama because it's the age, not the school.

Parents choose a private school when that school meets a certain need that public school can not. For some parents, it's religion. They want a religious school and that can not be provided in public school. Some want the social exclusivity. And for some areas, the public schools may be so poorly run that they feel it's necessary- but it seems that is not the case in your situation.

If your D wants to learn French, or art, these can be done with classes after school. If going to the art studio makes her feel bad, there are probably other classes. There are lots of language classes online.

Your D might "shine" more at the private school but sooner or later, she will be in a situation where she's a bright kid among other bright kids. The biggest fish in the sea eventually goes to an ocean with other big fish. ( college ).  It's good for a child to get recognized for their achievements, but if she's the biggest fish in the middle school- that school converges eventually with other schools. Learning to swim with the other big fish and find her own direction is also an experience to consider.

Then there is the cost. College costs are considerable. Starting to pay private tuition at age 9 means paying about 12 years of college vs 4 years later on. This is a considerable expense.

A lot of the experiences your D may want can be obtained at a lower cost with extracurricular programs that cost less. After school lessons, summer programs.

[Mommeredith81]

Agreed, Wendy. We got plenty of aid but it's still an expense. I had another talk with my daughter about it last night and she said her heart is broken. She had visited the school and spent a lot of time talking to the 2 girls who'd be starting with her, and an older girl wrote her a letter about what to expect at her new school. And she really liked that girl. And her friend drama at her current school is getting out of hand. But on the other side, public schools have better mechanisms to deal with anxiety and such. This new school is fairly small.

On the third hand, a new school with all these things would really give her something to be excited about. She's been pretty down lately and not letting her go here has added a layer. If she hadn't known about this school everything would be fine.

I'm just sad that I put her through this application process and now she feels she won't see these friends again that she made. Sure, she may eventually have drama with them too, but they'd all be starting next year at this new school at the same time and she loves that idea.

I'm grateful for yours and everyone's thoughts, because I really have few people to ask about this. My ex's opinions swing so wildly and he's the main one invested in her, besides me. I think his parents may have told him not to go through this sending her, or something like that.

I told her last night that she could apply again next year if she still feels strongly about the school. Otherwise she goes to the local middle school (which is nearby). But she's kind of tapped out. She applied to this school over the last year and had to do an interview, created a portfolio, etc. I'm sorry I put her through all this.

All of that said, if it were just her and me, I might send her. But with ex as part of the team, there are issues that perhaps are better dealt with in public school than in a small private school. Maybe next year we'd be on the same page. I just don't know.

Hearing her say "I'll never see my new friends again" really broke my heart. She told our doctor on Monday that she's depressed.

[formflier]

Good thread, I'm sure a lot of people coming by to read have been in this position.

It shows the importance of ultra clear language in the divorce decree...(Forever Dad's example).

It also shows the importance of thinking deeply about "the one thing that matters most"...and making for dang sure you get it.   (Again to the FD example..he didn't have 6 random things that "were his number 1 priority"...if they wanted to settle...this one thing was going to happen and we can negotiate the rest...or we don't settle.)

A couple of asides here...observations really vice judgement on this particular situation.

One of the things kids learn as they mature and gain wisdom is that just because something is "possible"...it doesn't make it the "wisest" thing to do.  

Another things for kids to learn is money choices matter...maybe they will make different decisions in the future.  Has there been any discussion with the kid about "if we add this very expensive thing to you life, we will have to remove xyz from your life to make it affordable"  Again it appears both adults are weighing this...there is a teaching moment here for the kiddo.

Last:  "What's best" for the child is something that each party (parent) should figure out and have clear...well thought through beliefs.    So yes that is important.  

It's also important to realize that putting a child in a situation that is not "best" but comes up number 2 or 3 on your list of rankings is likely "just fine".  Avoid the "childlike" thinking of "if I don't do what is best, I'm "ruining" my childs life.  

All of the above generalities assume that the additional question of "will this harm my child" has been answered "no"...so after that it's all negotiable.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Mommeredith81]

I just talked to my therapist who said she's going to remember this forever and be angry at me. So that does kind of stink. He is pretty straightforward and obviously isn't as intimidated by my exH as I am.

She said to me that she's willing to forgo vacations and things if she can go to this school. So she really wants it.

I am probably just going to have to hurt her feelings and she's going to feel a loss. And I have to live with that. I guess there are worse things but this is going to rank up there - it's a small school she had her heart set on.

I just handled this wrong. I asked him how to break it to my daughter. He said I have to apologize, maybe try to make it up to her, but she will still look back and feel it was a pivotal moment.

I can live with her being mad at me. I can't live with her feeling like this ruined her chance at happiness (which she said too...maybe an exaggeration, but she was happy thinking about this school. I should have never brought it up if I didn't have it all thought through.)

[Notwendy]

I am kind of surprised he said this as if this is THE one disappointment at this level.

What happens when she doesn't get accepted at her #1 college?

What happens if she gets into her #1 college but it's too expensive and she has to go to her #2 college?

What happens when she has to have a certain prom dress but it costs more than all the others?

What happens when the prom date she wants asks someone else?

What happens when she wants a class in college but the class is full already?

[Mommeredith81]

Thanks, Wendy. Maybe I give his opinion too much import. I guess the difference would be, she knows she may not get into a class or college. This place, she *did* get into...and she just sees me not letting her go, and not really having a good reason. And most importantly, she won't get to see the kids she met. (She may see them in the park someday, but it's not the same as going to school with them.)

[formflier]

She said to me that she's willing to forgo vacations and things if she can go to this school. So she really wants it.
 

Is it possible to pause a decision either way for a couple days...does anything bad happen?

I was fairly certain I was in the "let her be disappointed and she will grow up to be a more resilient adult as a result" camp. 

However...I would hope you could explore the option a bit more, since she is "buying in"  (no..not paying for it all...but she is proposing "skin in the game" for her) 

Here is the thing...sounds like a great school.

Outcome 1:  She goes..loves the school but "hates" her life due to "her money" going to other places.  Let her solve that...that would be a wonderful "conundrum" that will help her mature.

Outcome 2:  She goes to school and loves it and doesn't mind "what she has given up"...so...win win here as well.

Outcome 3:  She goes to school and becomes a sulky child because she is not that happy with it and her parents "tricked" her into giving up all this stuff.  (I don't think this will happen..just trying to establish what a "bad outcome" might look like.)  Again..let her solve this with minimal guidance.  Life is about choices and we have a choice about how to respond to joy AND to disappointment.

Questions:  How much does she already have "invested" in this process?  Taking tests..going to interviews...writing an essay or did you guys do all the work and "she got in"  (not really...you guys got her in..in that instance)

If she has "invested" quite a bit and is willing to put much more "skin in the game" to get what she wants...then I would want you to consider what this looks like to send her and pay the difference.

I get the vibe that the Dad really can't pay (job loss etc etc). 

Switching gears...let's say Dad can "veto" this, even it he isn't paying.  That's not your problem to solve...

You say yes...you have the extra $$ ready to go AND then he somehow (if he has this power)..squashes it. 

It's not up to you to "protect" or "prosecute" him...it's up to you to leave the "lights on" so your daughter sees the choices her parents are making for her.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

I'm sure I can think of others...

[formflier]

If going is an option.

Clarity on grades is essential. 

As in, "parents will pay for school as long as As or As and Bs but Cs are not acceptable.  (always with appropriate grace for "real" situations).

This is how she can have "more skin in the game".

Best,

FF

[Mommeredith81]

Thanks to you both! She's a pre-teen so she doesn't really understand the costs of vacations and things like that. But yes, if she goes, she will have to get at least decent grades and have some skin in the game. She knows that. She just wants to go.

I found out I don't need to make a decision this week, which is a relief.

Once I make the decision, I don't want to agonize over it for months. My daughter still may, though. I think I will likely ask ex-H his feelings one more time. And if he ends up saying it's ok to send her, I'll have to clarify the parameters with our PC.

[Notwendy]

I have an interesting question. How is your relationship with your mother?

I have posted about my own teen years with a BPD mother and so won't repeat it here but as you can imagine, my feelings about her were not exactly warm and fuzzy. It was ( and is still ) very important to me that this experience was not repeated with my own children. ( and it has not been - thankfully).

But still, there were times I said no to my children over something they wanted. And there were times they were disappointed in a decision I made. And there were some things I wish I did better. We aren't perfect at parenting, but one thing that was always obvious was consistent unconditional love.

I really did fear them being disappointed and angry at me. Sometimes they were and I felt so guilty and responsible.

But as time went on, I had to look at my own co-dependent tendencies- learned from how I grew up, feeling I needed to please everyone, be the one responsible for smoothing over everyone's feelings and afraid to say "no" and that I disappointed others. I had to learn to let people be responsible for their own feelings, so they can learn to manage them. That was an essential part of parenting- to allow children to learn to self regulate their feelings. If I managed them for them, or tried to intervene to keep them from feeling any negative feelings, I was doing them a disservice by taking away their opportunity to learn themselves. It's also a learning curve. Children don't do this well at first- so they complain, act out, tantrum. That's age appropriate. When adults do it, it's not ( and we know what that looks like).

Now none of us want to see our kids sad and disappointed. We are careful to protect them from things they can not handle and things that may be potentially harmful to them. But sometimes, letting them face these disappointments and learn to handle them is actually acting in their best interest long term. One question is - where is the fear and guilt coming from?

I do agree with the therapist about the value of an apology. Sometimes we do things we wish we could have done better. Making an honest amends is a way to repair a relationship. An honest, " I am sorry honey, I did not anticipate the financial issues this school has brought up before we looked into it. I feel badly that it is beyond our budget. I wish I could make this wish a reality, but I realized that I can't. I understand you are sad about it and I feel badly about this".

I do question that not being able to attend a private school for a 9 year old becomes the pivotal point of her life and an unforgettable situation that she may not ever get over. My own preferred thinking is that, yes, this is disappointing but when one door closes another one opens. She has many school years ahead of her. I also think of the "road not taken" poem. Does one look at the opportunities down the road they took, or constantly look at the road not taken and be sad for them?  One choice may have different possibilities . The other is a guarantee of unhappiness.

Whatever decision you make about this school- she goes or she doesn't- there will likely be choices she needs to make and things she wants that may not be affordable. Even if she is disappointed sometimes, learning how to manage her difficult feelings is a valuable skill.

[formflier]

Mind if I ask what the real deadline is? 


If you decide to send her and cover the cost, so all you need is Dad's "permission"...do you think that will go with him or ?

I'll certainly try to read the thread again in detail but the vibe I have right now is COST is the big thing and that perhaps if that isn't an issue for Dad...he's ok with whatever.

Note:  100 % agree with others that maturing kids need to deal with disappointment and I think if this ends up being a "no go"...that looking back this will be a good turning point for her...even it appears there is angst in the moment.

I'm certainly glad there is time to think it through.

Best,

Allen

[Mommeredith81]

Thanks. I thought I had to decide by this Friday but they're giving me another week.

Notwendy, my mom is mentally ill. Does have BPD traits. I still talk to her and help her but she was not the best role model.

[Notwendy]

This is something to think about. How we are attracted to, and attract is influenced by our families of origin. This isn't to blame but to understand why we do some things we do as adults. We learned certain behaviors growing up that were functional and necessary for us as children in our families, but when we take these behaviors into relationships as adults, they create dysfunction for us. We may unconsciously choose a partner who somehow "matches" our own behavioral patterns.

The good part about this is that if we learned these behaviors, we can unlearn them.

A challenge for me in parenting was being worried that my relationship with my children might replicate the one I have with my BPD mother. I did feel sad and disappointed many times. So I wanted to protect my own children from feeling that way about me and when they were angry or sad, it scared me. So I tended to lean the other way and try to "fix" things too much.

I also didn't have a role model for emotionally healthy mothering. So I imagined a perfect one, and yet, we are not perfect. We are humans and there will be times we wish we could have done things better. But we also have a way to make amends for our mistakes - a loving apology.

Naturally we want to provide things our children want, and need, but we also need to teach them about real world factors such as how to budget and afford the things they want and need and what to prioritize. This is not a concept that children grasp right away. They have no concept of what most things cost such as housing, food, utilities. It's beyond their age level and also we should not burden them with too much information at this age. However, they can begin to understand money. Giving a child a small allowance is a way for them to begin to learn. If they have $5 a week they can spend it on candy right away or save it for something that costs more. Adults deal with the larger things.

Working on codependency and learning to deal with my own fears of upsetting other people helped me to find more balance in all my relationships including as a parent. I understand it's also scary to have your child being treated for depression. You don't want to add more disappointment to that. On the other hand, overextending the family budget will add other stresses to you.

And kids say what they feel in the moment. My kids have been angry at me for saying "no" to something - yet, through this, they know I love them and our relationship has prevailed. Kids will act out and this was terrifying to see because it reminded me of how my mother behaves. Saying "no" to her is scary. But I had to also keep in mind that a moody pre-teen acting out is how they react at their age.

Now with depression, you do have the fear of self harm and maybe that is a fear of yours. This needs professional intervention. The idea that this school decision is pivotal is a concern if she's unable to handle this. Since you have time to decide- I think it would help to discuss this further with the counselor as to why it is for her.

[Mommeredith81]

Thanks, Notwendy and Formflier. Yes, I am scared she'll grow up and hate me and that for all my hard work, this is what she'll remember. I've made typical mom mistakes (yelled out of frustration, whatever) but this is a deeper cut. I let her apply to this school without really thinking about the ramifications. And I keep thinking about how FINALLY for about a year life was going fine with ex-H staying calm. And I got complacent and complicated it. (It was my daughter's idea to apply, but she has lots of ideas...I could have said to wait a year.)

I feel a little better today, though. We are probably not going to send her, and then I'll see if in fall she wants to apply for the next grade. If the school doesn't think we're total flakes, she may get in. But I'll have to get ex on the same page. And maybe daughter will have lost interest, which will make me kind of sad, but then in a way it resolves. Or maybe ex will just say no and that will be harder. We walked by the school today and she felt sad.

The wrinkle is that this coming week, ex may indeed come around and say I can pay for it next year. But what I also realized today (which is the kind of realization I need) is that I'm scared he'll get more involved if we switch, whereas he mostly kept away for years. I guess change scares me. I'm operating on fear - afraid of daughter hating me, afraid I'd be moving her from one school to another for really no good reason (one is slightly more about her interests) and afraid if I move her and agree to pay all of it, I'll be broke if we have an emergency or I need to deal with ex legally. Yes I can pay for this if I forgo a few things (like vacations) but I'm in divorce debt so this would take any free cash.

I really have to decide on my route and if it's worth it. I keep flipflopping. Daughter keeps saying to me, well, if I'm going to apply in the future, why can't I just go NOW? And then I think about how I should have put this off a year anyway, and saved more money and researched it more.

It's hard to decide all this stuff 5 months in advance anyway. Yeesh, schools want all the commitments so early. I get it, but I guess it feels soon. This is also considered a middle school, while my daughter has a year left of public elementary school before she'd go to middle school if she stays in the public schools. I don't know if I need to push her ahead so soon. But she is very gloom and doom and thinks she'll hate staying at her current school next year. She's exaggerating, for sure. I only think she thinks that because she was counting on leaving. She does get stressed and catastrophize.

Notwendy, you mentioned self harm. That's really my main concern. I wouldn't forgive myself if she hurt herself because I made a stupid decision. I don't think there are any dangers in the house, and I'm always watching her, but I feel bad that she feels this so painfully. I don't think she's in any danger right now, but a few years from now, when she's more independent, she may think back to this and have regrets. And then I can't really comfort her like I can now, with her being young and either in school or in my sight.

I want to make a rational decision, not one based in fear.  I don't know what that looks like.

[formflier]

  Yes, I am scared she'll grow up and hate me and that for all my hard work, this is what she'll remember. 

So...if one of your friends was telling you this...how do you hope you would respond to them?

Best,

FF

[Mommeredith81]

That it's beyond their control, how she feels? My thought, when isolated, seems a little selfish to me. ;)

If it were a friend saying it, I'd probably be consoling. But that doesn't mean daughter won't be sad or angry for years about this.

[Notwendy]

I think from my own perspective, I hope the parent- child bond is stronger than this disappointment when it is  balanced with consistent love and care over the years.

However, reading your posts, I realize this is just my own perspective. What can be the "worst thing ever" is not the same for everyone and not the same for each family.

I think for a 9 year old, disappointments can feel like the "worst thing ever" because at 9, one hasn't had a lot of life experience and also 9 year olds don't think like adults. There could be a lot of "worst things ever" like a first crush break up, or not getting invited to a birthday party, or a friend feud and the usual things adolescents go through as they mature.

From your posts though, I can see how fearful you are of not sending her to this school. While in the grand scheme of things, this may not be the pivotal point of the relationship, I wonder if this is going to be something you will feel regret for each time there are issues with your D.

Adolescence can be a challenging time for both teens and parents. I know there were times that my own children were angry at me for something they didn't like- and we didn't see eye to eye about some things because they didn't have an adult perspective.

This kind of thing is emotionally tough to handle. One concern I wonder about is - that when/if this does happen - will your first thought be "maybe this wouldn't happen if I had sent her to that school". Well you don't know this for sure because you don't know what would happen if you sent her.

In this situation, this decision would become the pivotal regret for you if you were to feel this way. Chances are, she will bring this up when she's angry. Teens can do that because they are emotional teens.

So here's another choice to consider. Which is harder? Financially stretching yourself to be able to send her to the school- or feeling guilt and regret for this and wondering about the road not taken.

Another option- send her to the new school. See how it goes. It may not be the rosy ideal she thinks it is. Or she may thrive. You don't know the future but you also won't regret the road not taken each time there's an emotional issue between the two of you. The lesson for her though (and be up front with this) is the budget. Yes, she got the school but now we have to compromise with some other things.

I know this is a turn on my other posts, but I see the fear on your part and so present another idea.

[Mommeredith81]

I don't think it's such a turn - you're considering all of the options, as I'm trying to, as well. And regrets are really hard. Honestly, I think she'll be ok academically whichever place we'll send her. She'll just be constantly bringing up how she wishes she'd gone to the private school, whenever she's mad at me.

I know she will be the one to bring this up again and again. Not really me.

I would actually like to have her reapply next year and we'll be in a better place, but there are unknowns (ex-H may not want to do it, most of all). If I could get ex to commit to saying ok for next year if she gets in again, I'd feel better, but I don't know if he'll say that for now.

[Notwendy]

Of course she'll bring it up- it's normal pre-teen/teen behavior.

There was a book I read that helped me to deal with this kind of thing when my kids were going through their teen years.

Get Out of My Life, but First Could You Drive Me & Cheryl to the Mall

For some time, it felt I could do nothing right. And sometimes they really did hurt my feelings. There are also things I wish I did differently. Teens don't come with an instruction manual!

Teens don't have a stable sense of self yet, and they are very influenced by their peers. Teens don't know who they are- they start with being "not their parent" so "not mom" which means they begin to reject you in a way in order to become them. This takes a while but eventually when they feel a bit more secure about themselves, they can also accept that some of who they are aligns with who you are too.

I knew I needed to work on my own co-dependent and people pleasing tendencies to get through the teen years. Knowing they need to be able to separate who they are from their parents and form their own ideas, yet still have firm boundaries ( homework, grades, curfews, family rules) I needed to be able to tolerate their being angry at me while showing them consistent love.

I think it's hard to not have a role model for this, and know you didn't experience this kind of love and support with your own mother. For this, I looked to other mothers- friends who were doing this in a way I thought was admirable, books, counseling.

And perspective. My BPD mother is emotionally and verbally abusive and very disordered. We don't have a good relationship but it isn't due to her having made a few mistakes- it was her inability to have a secure and stable relationship with me that is the cause and she has not been able to make changes in this for herself and also this issue isn't just with me.

I am a different parent - but not a perfect one.

Also consider that some children have emotional issues and difficulties even with good parenting. Everything is not the parents' fault. We just do the best we can.

 

[Mommeredith81]

Yes, that's all true. Thanks for being there. I feel a little guilty focusing on this when people have much worse problems (in the past, I've been those people...) I guess my worry is that if I say no, it's no forever. Too many things could scuttle her chances of getting in a year from now. If it were up to me, she'd just apply in a year and go, but I have to get ex on the same page, make sure she gets in...ugh.

I know you're right -- she DOES still tell me she loves me, so I can't worry too much about that. She says she hates me when I don't get her ice cream sometimes. I can live with that. I just feel like I set her up for disappointment and there's such a temptation to just send her to give her something to be excited about. I have a lot of thinking to do. I've blocked out time tonight to come to a decision. I might see if parent coordinator can talk to me and x, but he doesn't see a need (and that's more $). If he's willing to agree that she can go next year, that may solve a problem. Or I can tell ex I'm paying for it all and send her this year. But as others have said, she may be there a full 4 years then...I have to make sure I can commit to 4 rather than 3 years.

[Notwendy]

I would talk to the school about all your options, and also about reapplying next year.

One difference with this and college deferred admission is that with college, the deferred admission is based on the student pursuing a non academic experience for the year.

At her age, she will continue in school. Reapplication will likely be based on her entire academic record at the time of admissions, the number of applicants and the spaces available. So it's probably not predictable that she will get accepted next year but I think it helps to ask the school about all of this and will it hurt her to turn down the offer and reapply next year.

Because this feels like a one time opportunity, there is the option of spending the money for this year, a trial year. Then spend the next year while she's in school saving and planning if this is the right decision for her.

She may find the grass isn't greener on the other side. Or maybe it is.

I am presenting both sides because it's not possible to predict the outcome for either one.

[Mommeredith81]

Correct! It's isn't possible to plan, and I do appreciate those thoughts. I will consider both.
I did go in and talk to the school on Monday. They said she'd have to re-submit references and grades, because kids change. There are fewer spots, but also fewer applicants, for the next grade, they said.
They also said interviewing her was one of the most enjoyable experiences they'd had.
But my fear is that after I left, they decided we're flaky. Then there is the possibility of so many things changing by fall.
The admissions officer who spoke to me seemed to leave on a good note. Wednesday, for some reason, he called my ex to see if we're sending her (according to my ex). My ex said he has to talk to me. I found it strange that they'd call him. They didn't call me. Any ideas why they did that?
I may be acting a bit paranoid about the whole thing. They really liked my daughter. But they may not take on a family they feel is causing trouble.
I want to muse on all of this tonight because when Monday comes, I may get calls from them for a decision.

[Notwendy]

I understand the tendency to "read into" actions but it may have been that they had two numbers and just called one and it was his.

[Mommeredith81]

Ha, yes that sounds logical. Both of us tend to get the same emails.

I think the wildcard in all this is my ex. If I ask him to commit to agreeing to send her if she gets in next year, he'll recoil.  This is probably the best point in favor of sending her now (if I could get him to agree now) -- I don't want him to do the same thing next year and change his mind. Even if D will have to change schools anyway, he might be difficult.

I think it's normal for people to wait an extra year to send their kid to a new school. It's just odd for me to have to make such a decision and also consider a person who becomes dysregulated in the mix.

I hate the word "never." I don't want to think that if I say no now, she'll never go - that is, if she still wants to in 6 mo.

[Notwendy]

I think, at age 9, there will be a whole lot more possibilities than there are "nevers". She's got a lot ahead of her!

And, as children mature, there will be some "not for me" but a lot of things to explore as possibilities.

I took dance lessons as a kid. But by middle school, I remained too short to ever be a ballerina.  It did kind of hurt my ego to see all the lovely tall girls get promoted to the ballet classes, while I didn't.

This became a "never" but it was OK because I found a lot of other things I was good at.

I am sure you have some memories of things that didn't work out for you but then something else did.

She has middle school, high school and college ahead of her to figure out her strengths.

I know it's hard when you didn't have a mother to help you emotionally navigate these accomplishments and disappointments. But you can be that mother for your D- however this decision goes.

[Bvcruiser]

I would say that you should check out all available means to help your child with the new school. Maybe the ex has it in his mind to get one over on you, or going in front of a judge to decipher what does a private school offer that a public school can’t. I would not ask the ex for anything that gives him the impression that you need him. After my recent 2 year experience with a borderline, they are always right, and us non borderliners are always wrong.

[Mommeredith81]

Thanks. All of you have been very helpful. I think ultimately without ex's support (even just as a backup), saying "yes" is hard on me financially. I want to send her but I need to have money for bigger emergencies. I will probably say no and hope she can re-apply in a year, but I worry about stuff getting in the way (ex saying no again, not getting as much money). And maybe the school willl think I'm a total flake and say no for that reason (and now they know my poor financial situation). I hate saying no to a good opportunity. But she may get a second chance. I keep going back and forth. My D seems resigned to not going this year, but I think I just hate making the decision. Probably what I'll do is send a last email to ex-H to make sure he's saying no, and then note that she'll apply next year and hope he won't oppose it if I want her to go when it's time for her to switch schools.

And yes Notwendy, I get it that not having had a supportive mother makes me question myself...but some people still don't have that. It's hard being alone making all these decisions. My D seems to have forgiven me but I'm wondering if she's still hurting. Still, she will get other opportunities, as you said. I just hope she gets this one again if I say no.

I'm kinda dragging this out too. Technically I was supposed to give a deposit already. The school is being very nice. I'd love another 6 months to figure this out. ;)

[Mommeredith81]

Believe it or not a week has gone by and I haven't given the school an answer, nor have they reached out (beyond calling my ex to ask if my daughter was going). Now they're on break. But I can't stall forever. I've figured out that I probably can't afford to send her. I think if I convinced ex I was going to pay for it alone, he'd agree. And I could afford it, but I'd have $0 left for emergencies and extras (extras being things like a haircut...anything except the basics). So that's kind of where I'm stuck. I think I'll be in a better place to send her if she applies again, but there will be fewer seats. I think I could talk to ex with parent coordinator and get him to agree that we can send her if she gets in again. But it's not guaranteed. Tonight I'm going to talk to daughter and come up with things that will help her feel better, should she not go at all. This is all part of why I go back and forth, because I think maybe I should bite the bullet and ask ex to send her this year. The fact that he's unsupportive bothers me but I'd have to get over that. I have to make a decision and then stop worrying about it, but I will always question it. If daughter gets in again next time, even if we don't get a generous award, I'd find a way to pay. But she may not. I kinda need to get off the fence. Maybe my answer is obvious from whatever I've said, and I just can't realize it because ex always has me doubting myself. Thoughts?

[Notwendy]

How reliable is her father? If he says "yes" and pays one month, will he follow through the next? Or will it be constant guessing each time tuition is due?

What I see is a potential triangle here- you, him, and your D. Triangles can be opportunities for drama.

Do they have any relationship at all? Can he afford the school? Is it in her best interest to have this kind of relationship with him - the dependency on him for a school she wants to go to?

I am thinking of my own situation as a child. My parents stayed together and my father was the wage earner, but it was my BPD mother who controlled the money. She is now a widow with this same control. I have learned over time that if she pays for anything- it's an opportunity for her to be in control and any "offer" that involves her paying for something becomes an opportunity for drama. Also, she's prone to withdraw the offer if she's angry.

I learned quickly to not accept or depend on any money from my parents. When looking at colleges, I selected a state school with reasonable tuition for a couple of reasons. I knew there were financial issues in the family at the time, and also didn't feel I could rely on receiving money from them.

There was a brief time I felt envious of friends who were in more prestigious private colleges. Kids that age are impressionable. But the long term view is different. From my own children's peers, I have seen children succeed ( and also struggle) in all kinds of schools, private and public. I also find that the child's perception of the school is influenced by their family and peers. One child's "safety" school can be another one's "dream school" depending on the family perception and in general- how a child does at a particular school usually depends more on what they put into it than the school itself.

I understand how you can feel you are doubting yourself with this issue. Maybe it would help to take a global view. If your D attends this school, it's not just a year commitment. It's for several years and there's probably going to be college after this. How reliable is your H if he commits to this? Is he then going to be willing to help with college too? Is it better for your D to be in a school setting that doesn't rely on him financially?

In addition to the cost of the school- will your D be in a higher socio economic peer group in a private school? If so, she will want what her peers have and to be able to participate with them- clothes, social events. Will you be able to provide for that as well? She's only 9 now, but the teen years are not far away and fitting in with peers is important at this age. Eventually, she will be driving, going to school dances and parties with her peers.

I think there are some solid reasons to choose and pay for a different school and these can vary for each family. For some, it's religion. It could be that the local public schools don't provide what a student needs- such as small classes, or a more supportive environment. Maybe it would help for you to write down the pros and cons of either school.

If the decision is a yes, then she won't face the disappointment of not being able to go. If it's a no, and she is disappointed, ( and confer with her counselor - I don't know her emotional state) then, I also think how a child does is influence by how their parent does with the decision.

Again, I have mostly seen this at the college level but emotionally the child takes their college and comments about it personally. Where the family is focused on the status of the school- the child in a less prestigious state public school is seen as not being good enough. For the family that is excited about the state school, the child feels excited too.

While there may be many good qualities in the private school your child is looking at, the idea that it is better may translate for her to "she is better" if she goes or "she is less" if she doesn't go. Wherever she does go- your response will influence how she perceives the school.

[formflier]

What I see is a potential triangle here- you, him, and your D. Triangles can be opportunities for drama.

 

Lots of important questions in the post above. 

School is important...yet I would "argue" that a child's emotional resilience and emotional maturity is just as, if not more important.  How to handle disappointment is a big part of that...they will take their cues from their parents.

So...if at all possible, picking a path where both parents are "on the same page" is important...I should add "stay on the same page".

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Mommeredith81]

All helpful comments. Thank you. I am leaning toward saying no for this year but trying to get ex on the same page for next year, when she'll be switching schools anyway because elem school is over then. But it partly seems a little like punting down the line. There are fewer spots next year but the school DID seem to like her, and the admissions guy also said fewer people apply next year. Worse, though, ex may say a flat no to avoid the possibility of paying. So I may be back in the role of saying "no" to my daughter in fall, which is no forever, which is worse.

I had a conversation with D today about how she will feel if she can't go next year either. She really wants to go. I guess I have to change her mindset so she doesn't see that as the only path. She's not excited about going to the public middle school here in a year, and she's pretty excited about this more artsy school. It does suit her personality. It'd be nice for her to be excited about school, which she never was before. So I want to keep this choice open.

So yes, FF and NotWendy, you make good points about how I handle her emotions. I have to model appropriate behavior -- and not make her feel like it's the end of the world if she doesn't go. I have to help her with her disappointment and also help her see there are alternatives. Right now her heart is set on this school and she can't seem to see the positives in going to the regular middle school some day, which really isn't a bad place.

Notwendy, I'd probably be the one paying next year too. I'll be on more solid ground financially. I'm not going to put tuition in ex's hands. Our agreement actually says it's my duty to enroll her and pay for schools. It doesn't say I get to choose the school, but that I'd be the one in charge of paying. It would be nicer if he's on the same page. School IS an important decision. He might kick in a one-time amount; that's pretty much what he agreed to early on (small amount but still something).

Yeah, the idea of her staying there several years is worth considering too. If she likes it, she'd be there 3-4 years. It's not really a snooty school so I'm not worried about her fitting in.

I want to write to ex to let him know that I'll be giving the school an answer this week and I've been hesitating because D is excited about the school. I want to be honest about that. And that I understand the financial reasons for saying no, but that maybe we should talk about it with PC before I give an answer. (I'd like him to think about being in support of her going in a year). Only danger in this is, he may say, well, send her this year but you have to pay for it. I really have to think about if I want to put myself in that position. Either way, I'd insist that we have to work out an agreement with him and the PC about how that'd work, whether this year or next year. I don't really know what I hope to get by writing to him once more though. I guess I just don't want to tell the school "no" without giving him a heads up or something.

[Mommeredith81]

Oh, one more thing is that my D liked the kids she met at the trial day for school and is sad she won't be in class with them in fall. Things like that make me feel like I should beg, borrow, and whatever to let her go, and I'm being wimpy. But my instincts tell me not to do that. I'm not sure why, though. I could probably convince ex-H to do that if I paid for it all. I just think it's not life or death, I guess, and want to reserve begging, borrowing, etc. for true emergencies (eviction, legal issues, etc.)

She also will see those kids the following year if she's able to go for the next grade.

[Notwendy]

Does your H have a relationship with his D?

Here's a suggestion. He's not the custodial parent and she lives with you, I assume and I also assume his main role is child support. But even without BPD, being in a remote role, he may be asked to pay for something he didn't have a role in deciding on and even if he didn't have BPD, he knows less about the school and your daughter's investment in it.

So here's the triangle. The marital issues ( and the main drama) was between the two of you. Requests for money and decisions you make from you feel more to him like he's paying for something he has no real involvement in and so the resentment on his part is with you. Now you know it's for his daughter too but when the request is from you, it feels as if it's for you.

If you want him to help pay, then also he should have some say in it and also an investment emotionally in the relationship with his D. Now, if he's a toxic person and you think it's better for her that he keeps a distance, this also includes a financial distance. The expectation from my BPD mother is- if she pays - she then wants to be included. If I don't want her to have too much involvement, I can not accept money from her.

If he's going to be part of the decision, I think he need to speak to her. I know you advocate for her, but your asking makes it a triangle. She's old enough to tell him why she wants to go to the school. Whether he decided to pay or not is then his decision and it's his responsibility to answer her. Your asking him may shield her from his decision but also telling her "Daddy won't pay" is also speaking for him. I suspect you play some interference from his behavior, but the relationship he has with her is mainly up to him. Of course, protect her from abusive behavior, but if this isn't the case, she is old enough to have this discussion with him if it's not going to be harmful to her.

I don't know the extent of his disorder or if it's emotionally safe for her to have a relationship with him. I do know that involving my mother financially in something I want to do would result in a control struggle with her. So the boundary has to be to not accept any money from her. If your marital conflicts were mainly between the two of you, and not between him and his children, and his involvement is safe for her, then he may want to be involved in this school decision more.

[Mommeredith81]

Yes, good points.
I think if she re-applies, he may be more involved or at least consenting. That also would allow more time for her to tell him what this school means to him.

I don't want her to guilt him about it - that wouldn't be safe. I do run interference to a point. I don't want him to think I'm using our young D to manipulate him.
I just want to make the best decision.

...What I'm grappling with now is, before I tell the school no, what to say in an email to Ex. I had a new thought: I could write to him and say: I know we probably can't afford it, but we were talking about it for so long that I don't think it's fair to just squelch it with two sentences. I'd still like to talk about pros and cons of it with our PC before I say no. Or talk to her about how to address it with D.

But I dunno, that could backfire. He may agree with our PC to support her applying again in fall, then get annoyed once he's off the call. Or he may feel manipulated into agreeing to something he's not in agreement with, because he doesn't realize how much this means to D.

I really feel like I need to say something to him before giving my final "no" to the school...but what? And how? What I'd really like is for him to understand she may want to apply next year -- and for him to let me know if he has second thoughts about saying no. I don't want him to tell me, a month from now, that maybe she should have gone.

I don't want to give the school my final "no" without saying something more to him.

[Notwendy]

I don't know your custody arrangements but if he has some involvement in her life, it's reasonable to inform him of school decisions. I didn't mean it was a problem to speak to him about it but to be aware of potential triangle drama- your point about him feeling put up to it if she speaks to him about it makes sense,

[formflier]

I'm not the best on drama triangle stuff, still it's a massively useful tool.

The biggest "oh..yeah, that's important" thing from reading all this is to let your hubby speak for himself..directly to your D.

Every time you feel like saying "Daddy says...xyz" you should change it to "you should speak to your Daddy about that"

That's also in keeping with "boundaries".   You and only you are in charge of your relationship with your child.  Same for him.

That "fact" doesn't change if he is doing his relation really badly...

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I think it's important to protect children from an abusive parent, but in the absence of harm, it is up to the parent to foster the relationship with them. You don't want to paint her father as the bad guy, but he's responsible for how he treats her.

This makes me think of my friend whose H divorced her and although he could afford to pay for school for them, he refused but this wasn't the only issue in their relationship. The kids felt alienated from him due to his controlling behavior with them. These children were good students and were very resourceful in finding, and receiving, scholarship assistance from the colleges they attended.

Growing up, my parents did say no to things they could have afforded, but basically, BPD mother controlled the money in the family, so if she said no, it was a no. Yes, I did resent this as a teen but there was a benefit to this as it motivated me to become financially independent as soon as I could as an adult.

However, it wasn't the money or saying "no" that created the strain in our relationship. It wasn't even a one time event. It was the consistent way she treated me. Same for my friend's children. She was able to provide what the kids needed but not everything they wanted. She's a consistent loving parent and has a good relationship with her children.

I know you fear this decision if it is a no. I don't know your own child's emotional state and yes speak to her counselor. However, even if she's upset, I find it hard to imagine that this one event could permanently ruin an otherwise loving relationship with you. I certainly hope that isn't the case for you. For me, and the examples I have seen, the relationship is more dependent on consistent unconditional love.

[Mommeredith81]

Thanks to both of you. I'm not worried at this point about the decision ruining the relationship. It's clear my D still loves me. She may be disappointed, but she clearly still loves me. Now I'm more worried that something will stop her from going if she applies again next year (since she'd really like to go eventually) and it will be my ex saying no. I think I can convince him, but wonder if I'm not taking a hard enough line right now -- trying to get our PC involved, telling him something like, "If I say no now, will you be open to her applying next year?" I kinda really have to see how it all works out. My instincts tell me not to press him now, that it's just too hard and the money isn't there. But I don't want him to be against it for next year.

[kells76]

Help me understand a little more, so we can see where the roadblocks are...

I think I'm reading correctly in this thread that you are "decision maker" about school enrollment? I.e. there is no legal requirement anywhere that your D's dad agree with/cooperate with/support/cosign/etc where you decide to enroll the kids in school? (Not saying "that's good" or "that's bad", just working to understand fully what the legal requirements are in your setup).

And you are also 100% responsible for any/all school costs?

And as the schools are right next to each other, there would be no logistical change for Dad's parenting time with the kids? I.e. it's not a longer drive for pickups/dropoffs?

So what specifically are you concerned would happen if "he were against it" next year?

He would not take D to school?

He would "badmouth" the school to her and "convince" her she didn't like it?

He would not pay child support (I am assuming he does pay CS? Please correct me if I am wrong there)

He would... X, Y, Z?

I think I am trying to drill down to -- what is the core obstacle? I hear that finances are a big part of it, and believe me, that makes sense. I am struggling to understand what Dad's "being against it" would stop from happening, and/or what that would look like concretely...?

I think it is really, really important, and so hard with a two house family, to not say that "this thing at Dad's house/this thing Dad is doing or not doing" is what is stopping a child from doing what they want, when it isn't exactly the case. Operating with integrity, no matter how disordered the other parent is, is playing the long game for your relationship with your kids. I hear you that you want to have a positive and supportive relationship with your kiddos. It gets so hard when being the one with integrity means letting the kids down, or taking full responsibility for their disappointment. So, so hard. You're in a tricky place. Yet working things out here on the boards means you get to drill down to clarity -- what are you in control of, and what aren't you? What are the core obstacles, and who is responsible for them? If Dad is not legally responsible to pay for any school $, and if Dad is not co-decision maker on school enrollment, then it will be so critical for your integrity to "not even go there". Not even hint that "I really wanted to send you this year, but we couldn't afford it, but maybe Dad can pitch in next year" type stuff.

...

OK, I am guessing we are on the same page about that stuff. So, moving forward to some potential problem solving:

I'm more worried that something will stop her from going if she applies again next year

I understand that "deferred admission" is more of a college thing (i.e. you apply for and are accepted for Year 1, but you can both "take a gap year" AND "have your spot saved" for year 2). I wonder if asking about that with the school would help. You can't be the only family working through financial issues -- maybe you can "cut a deal" with them where if you, IDK, do something beneficial for the school now (I have no idea what, just brainstorming), while saving up this year, you could be "top of the applicant list" for next year.

It seems reasonable to me to suggest to them: "D was so thrilled to be accepted this year! We have assessed our finances and to be honest with you, while it's technically feasible this year, it would drain us dry and leave nothing for emergencies -- and with how the last couple of years have gone, I know you guys understand what a risk that is. We would be able to save more this coming year and be in a more stable place to pay for the next school year. I wonder what programs or accommodations you guys have for families in our financial situation, where we need time to be able to pay? Do you offer a deferred admission program, or are there scholarships that I just haven't been aware of yet? Is there anything D could work on (scholarship, volunteering, etc) that could help her for next year?"

...

For me, though, so much of this circles back to this question:

Now I'm more worried that something will stop her from going if she applies again next year (since she'd really like to go eventually) and it will be my ex saying no.

I think I might be missing something or be pretty dense, but help me one more time... can he legally say No? Wouldn't that make him have sole educational custody?

I understand wanting both parents to be on the same page... yet at some point if you have ed decision making, you have ed decision making. And so that goes back up to my question above -- what concretely would it look like for him to "be against it", and why would that stop things?

Sorry for all the questions! I hope the idea about pitching "deferred enrollment" helps, or at least maybe starts a conversation. And definitely check w/ the school to see if they have scholarship programs -- having your D have some more skin in the game could be a net win.

Looking forward to hearing more;

kells76

[Notwendy]

Kells makes some good points, but also, I am a bit confused because tuition must be paid each year to continue in a school. So the idea of not being able to pay this year but maybe next year, but maybe not is a bit confusing. What you don't want to do is enroll her in a program and have to then change out.

If you are needing your H's agreement to help pay for this, and fear he won't next year - then he might not regardless of if she enrolls now or later. For her own stability in school, and if she's 9, you are looking at several years of tuition, not just one.

I think the question becomes- can you pay for her to go to this school until high school. ( and then what? is a private high school on the horizon? that needs to be considered as well. What about college?). If you need her father to help with these expenses, and you fear he is not reliable, then it may not be a good idea to send her and then have to also take her out if expenses aren't covered.

I understand you have a fear that her father won't be a reliable partner in this agreement and this fear may be well founded on your experience with him. However, you don't have any control over what he does. The best you can do is to factor this into the decision. You may be able to save this year for next year, but then tuition will need to be paid again for her to stay there. This is a long term decision.

[Mommeredith81]

Yes to all of that. Thanks for helping me work through this.

It's not spelled out in our agreement who decides on school, but we both have legal custody, so technically it'd make sense to agree on school for the next year. After that, when she's changing anyway, I may be able to have more standing, at least in a discussion with ex and PC.

My agreement says I pay for school and enroll her in school. I might remind him of this.

He'd still have to submit his financial info for us to be considered for aid next year. And I'd like to get him on the same page, generally.

I think I personally could save more and be in a better place by next year.

Hope that answers some of the questions.

I already asked if they defer, and they said no, because students change a lot. But the admissions guy also said if we apply on time etc etc there probably would be a spot. (Of course, he could leave, he could decide that because we dragged our feet this time, it's not a good idea...)

My big question now is -- since I have to decide soon, I'm wondering how to phrase an email to ex, and if I should try to personally talk to the PC before I say no, or try to get *ex* to talk to the PC with me? I don't think it would mean he'd make any sort of agreement, but might provide the clarity I need. (And as I said, it could backfire and she could say, well, maybe D could just take art classes instead of going to private school...ex would love that suggestion.) Maybe I gotta talk to her privately. I'm not sure. I suppose I feel like if I talk with more people before I make this decision, I will know it wasn't an entirely off base decision.

[Notwendy]

Personally, I think having a third party to mediate when discussing things with a disordered person helps keep things from escalating, so if you feel it's needed, then talking to the counselor is probably helpful. If you want to speak to her privately for your own peace of mind, then do that. If you and your ex are able to communicate clearly, then there may not be the need for the counselor.

I think the bottom line is your comfort with the decision and how comfortable you are in discussions with your ex. This is self care and so do what you feel you need to do to feel you did your best with the decision.

[Mommeredith81]

Yeah I'm going to see if I can get my PC on the phone, although I've already talked to her. I guess for clarity.

[kells76]

An important question would be:

Does having full decision-making/responsibility for school enrollment equal full decision-making/responsibility for school choice?

I.e., does the language of your order use the word "enrollment" to mean "choice"?

Or is it literally saying "both parents must agree on choosing the school, but then Mom is the one who fills out the paperwork after the decision is made"?

This is a perfect PC question -- how should the order be interpreted.

I can't imagine an order being so vague about who picks the school but so specific about who turns in the paperwork after that. But that could be the case.

Let the PC be the one deciding what the language means and communicating that to the two parents.

[Mommeredith81]

I am going to ask her that. Thank you.

Not that I'd want to say to ex, "Ha ha, I get to choose!" Especially moving her from one place to another. But I could subtly invoke the agreement if he won't participate next year. Only snag is, the school wants both parties to submit financial info. So it'd be nice if he's agreeable next year.

Not sure what else I should say to PC, but she does work with children (and is a forensic evaluator) so may have some clarity.

[kells76]

You could try a "reverse framing" -- "I want to make sure that neither parent is needlessly shut out of decision making, because I know the kids do better when we're on the same page. Can you help us figure out what the PP says about who is responsible for choosing the kids' schools?"

Are there any other gray areas in the PP? Would you be willing to "gift" one of those areas to your kids' dad for him to be "tiebreaker" or "decision maker" and then you get education decision making? I'm thinking of something like religious decision making, orthodontic decision making, "dangerous activities" decision making, etc. You know him best; would he be receptive to a session where the PC "clarifies roles" and he feels like he "got something he is in charge of" or "is the tiebreaker on" at the same time that the PC clarifies that you are ed tiebreaker?

the school wants both parties to submit financial info.

Is this a "nice to have" or a "need to have" for the school? Wondering what they'd say if asked how they've navigated other two-household situations that are "less than cooperative".

[ForeverDad]

In my state there is a designation of one parent as the "residential parent for school purposes".

In my final decree we had Shared Parenting where everything was equal but one parent had the residence which determined which school the children attended.  I made sure I was that parent in our settlement.  I suspected correctly that my ex would move around from apartment to apartment and I didn't want to follow her to a different school whenever she moved.  Another reason was that I also didn't trust her with possible home schooling ideas.

I'm assuming your state doesn't let you take your public school funding and apply it to supplement the private tuition?

[Mommeredith81]

Yeah, I don't think you can apply it. Do they do that in some states? You can only apply it to home schooling.

Even if I did say "Well, I get final school decision making," I'd end up with a pretty angry ex for that one. But I will ask PC what the stuff in the agreement means. Moving her to this school this year would be a change of circumstance. Next year she has to change to middle school anyway so I think that'd be less legally abrupt. Still, getting clarity from the PC will help me.

[formflier]

Hey...  a big picture observation..that I'm curious if you will "see it" as well.

There is a big vibe in your posts of "I need to do this so my (fill in blank) will be (insert good emotion)" and also I can't do this because my (fill in blank) will be (insert bad emotion)?

I'm curious if you can quantify in some manner how much time you spend evaluating decisions from the "emotional perspective" and how much you spend evaluating it from the "logical perspective"   (such as do we have money, can logistics be worked out...etc etc)

Please don't read into this any judgment that one is better than the other...I'm curious about how you see what's going on in your "thought life".

Best,

FF

[Mommeredith81]

That's actually helpful.

I have had a lot of regrets in life, most not serious, but they DO affect me. Some are just irrational, but a few make me wonder, what if I'd thought more about it and prepared better?

So I want to evaluate this decision smartly.

Logic: Daughter probably can go next year. It would make sense to save money. It would make sense to keep her in current school one more year.
Logic: She has a better chance of going if we send her now (since she's already in) and she also has a decent grant now.
Logic: If I send her, I'd want ex to at least feel comfortable with it and know that he's not about to change his mind, so I'd want us to get on the same page via a conversation with the PC, including making sure he won't flip flop once I pay the deposit.
Emotions: I don't want her to be sad, so would rather send her now. Then I don't risk her not getting in next year.
Emotions: Change is a bit scary. I know what her current school is like, it's bigger, and ex doesn't interfere. Sometimes it's nice to stick to a situation you know.

If I evaluate based on logic, I'm still not sure whether to let this drop for now and have her apply next year, or see if ex is willing to let her go this year if I pay for it (and if we have a convo with the PC to make an agreement on pay). This is really the big decision now - figuring out if I want to let it go for this year and hope we can apply again, or trying to see if ex will send her this year if I pay. I have a few projects lined up to make extra money, and I can forgo a few things, but just not sure if it's taking on too much.

[formflier]

It would appear I'm the "flip side" of you.  I'm mister logical and I rarely consider feelings.  So...when big decisions come up, I have to be deliberate about evaluating the emotional impact on (fill in the blank)..because it won't come naturally...to me.

Running the spreadsheet of logic in my head...I don't even break a sweat.

Then...remember...part of raising a child is helping them deal with emotions and also to be able to work through "logical thought".

So...if you and your daughter are more on the emotional side...then perhaps the "growth" lies in more logical thought.

Perhaps..

Best,

FF

[Mommeredith81]

Thanks. Taking the emotion out of it does make it a bit clearer, but there are so many arguments for or against, that I just can't seem to make a decision. Argh. Not sending her for now seems ok, but for some reason I keep stalling and can't make my fingers write that response saying she's not going this year. The idea of having her apply again in fall seems so frustrating when she's already in, but it's not that hard a process.

[formflier]

So...I'm trying to lead you to "see" that there is no right or wrong answer (and that's kinda a big life lesson for you AND ALSO to teach your kid.)

Scenario 1:  You decide to give it a year.  Your child will become more resilient and experience the ability to "rise to the occasion".  The "I came in second place...so I'm going to try harder next year for first."

Scenario 2:  You send her.  Your child will get to experience first hand the obvious financial struggle that will come with this decision (I get it she will not be earning it...but she will have a "front row seat".  Should you decide to send her...don't "shield" her from the impact of that.)

Said another way...it's about your parenting and your relationship with your child.  You can make either scenario work.   (of course with the added joy of BPDish stuff thrown in...but again...that's life, the earlier your daughter starts to "see" that..the better)

Best,

FF

[Mommeredith81]

Yup. I guess I have 2 decent options.
I think it makes sense to wait a year. The only fear is that for some reason, she doesn't get in again (or ex puts his foot down even if I'm willing to pay for it).
My PC said she'd be open to having a conversation with us early next week before I say no. But I'm still not sure what I'd hope to accomplish, except feeling him out to see if he'd change his mind next year. And really, he's not going to know now how he feels next year. Maybe I'm asking for trouble and should just say no and revisit in a year. Meanwhile, daughter can express to him that she wants to apply.
I don't know...I suppose I want to make sure that saying "no" now isn't no forever, but he's not going to make any promises in that regard.
If he says it's a no for next year too, I just will say I want to leave the door open so she has options.

[formflier]

Another big life lesson...

Promises about the future, while they may sound good...are actually "ignoring" the time and events that will happen between now and then.

Make your decision for now and move on.

A year from now you will have another years worth of "data" and that additional data may alter what you "promised"...so...don't "promise".  Focus on making good decisions in the present.

Hopefully that reads ok...been a long day...but I think you get the point.

Best,

FF

[Mommeredith81]

Yes I do get the point!
And thanks for responding after a long day.
I think some of my fear comes from guessing about what may happen a year from now, but I need to stop doing that.
It's becoming clear to me that I probably can't pay for this school now. But I means a lot to my D and I want to leave the door open. I'm sending an email to my H tonight to see if he wants to talk to the PC with me before I say no. If he does, I'll just feel him out about the future, and we'll probably still say no for now. If he doesn't want to discuss, then I'm sure about the decision for now and can say I gave it a shot. Things are otherwise going well now and I want to make sure I don't cause unnecessary problems, while also doing what's best for my D.
It was hard in the last few weeks to tell her she probably isn't going now, and she still feels bad, but understands the reasons and I think is happy for other things in her life. But I know she's also hopeful she'll get to go someday. I hope exH can understand that. He has the kids this weekend and then early next week I'll give the school my answer.

[Mommeredith81]

I have a bit of clarity now.
After talking to my PC, I sent my exH an email saying I think we should talk to the PC about pluses and minuses of sending her to this new school in fall. I said that if we don't send her now, they will consider her again for next year too.
His simple response was, "I need to save money and get a new apt."
He doesn't seem against the school, and probably could be convinced to sign an agreement stating I pay for all of it. So the next question becomes, do I want to do that with him? (My PC is willing to do that if I want.)
And something is telling me no. It's largely money - my credit is shot, I'm paying huge interest, I need emergency money and need to save up. Plus I don't know that I want to give up the last year of public elementary school for my daughter where I know they have services and safety for her if she needs them.
But I also know my daughter was really hoping to start this new school in fall, since the school starts in 5th, everyone is new, and it'd be a special year. She likes so many things about it and it hurts her not to go.
But she is hopeful about next year and applying again. I think I could save more money and feel more comfortable sending her. Since ex doesn't seem angrily against sending her - just his paying - I think we could get him on the same page for her to start there in 6th grade. I think if I push him now, it could cause some tumult that could make her even less likely to attend ever.
The wildcard is the school itself, since they now know how broke we are. She may apply again for next year and she could be rejected this time. With things opening up, the school will have more visibility. They'll be participating in public art shows etc.
But honestly, I think the chances are good that she'll get a shot to go there someday, if they don't totally hate us now. (And really, they haven't had a view of my inner turmoil, only now know how awful our finances are, and my debt).
If she doesn't get a chance again next year, I will indeed keep thinking back to this time and say "Why didn't I act like a Mama Bear and make an agreement with my ex that I'd pay and she'd go. I could have done it." But I feel like it could cause some turmoil in different ways to do that - not just financial, but I think pushing him on an agreement now makes me uncomfortable, for some reason. Maybe because I am myself a little on the fence about starting her this year and paying for 4 years. I don't think this year would be a "trial year," I think she'd want to stay, and that could be a burden that could cause me a lot of anxiety. If she starts next year, that's 3 years and that's better.
I feel okay saying no now, because it's probably not forever. I feel like my kids need to be in a home that right now isn't so broke we can't afford ice cream when they ask (they ask for things often).
Maybe my own anxiety is holding me back. I still have the weekend to think about it, and I will definitely be thinking.
But part of what I wanted to be sure of was that ex wasn't going to change his mind about this after I said "no." By next year, daughter can keep convincing him of why she wants to go to this school. If I pay for it, it might be a really good option for her for middle school. (As long as they don't get hit with a wave of applicants post-covid and shut her out.) She's going to have to keep her grades up, too.
(All of these what-ifs are why I still deliberate...but at least I have a little clarity from ex. I didn't want to say "no" and have him say, "I said she could go.")
I still may be doing the wrong thing by not grabbing this opportunity now. The payment plan they offered to us is not hard. But it's not just money right now. I think I'm reluctant to change the status quo when I don't have to...and when we may be in a more stable situation 6 months from now.
We will probably still talk about all of this at our quarterly PC appointment in late May. But I guess the conversation will be more, when they consider her for 6th grade instead, we can talk then about making an agreement."
I did ask PC about our divorce decree which says I'm responsible for enrolling her in school and paying for it. She said that doesn't necessarily mean we don't have to both agree...but it's a starting point.
I don't know if all of that sounds rational, but at least I have a plan.

[formflier]

His simple response was, "I need to save money and get a new apt."
 

I hope it's ok to offer a guy's...a Dad's point of view on what he could possibly be trying to say.

When I read this...I "hear"..."Wow..that' sounds great, but I can't possibly even imagine doing this until (money, apartment)."   I don't hear a promise that he will say yes or no.

Very similar to any other "big thing" that is "possible", but would take a lot of effort.

I say this for you to be mindful that if at all possible...or to the max extent possible, I think your daughter will benefit from Dad and Mom "being on the same page" or "close to the same page"...vice Mom and Dad being in a Yes and No disagreement.

Can we move on to finances?  (and perhaps this is another thread).

You can't control your hubbys choices...but you have 100% control over yours...so focus there.

If you said..."Let's put off even considering school until next year" and for the next 12 months...I'm going to get all my unsecured debt paid off."

Is that possible? 

As I have aged (I'm in my 50s now)...I'm less and less fond of debt.  Your income is your most powerful wealth building tool available, I would encourage you to NOT make choices to hand your income to banks, credit cards and the like.

I haven't paid a car payment since 2005.  The last truck I bought (now the proud owner of a duramax "service body" truck...all the toolboxes all over the back) I paid cash for.  Yes it "hurt" to hand over about $16k...but I love the truck and have a peace about it knowing that I don't have to worry about paying for it every month...I can "worry" about using the truck to increase my income...vice giving it away.


Last:  Yes math is important in finances..I love spreadsheets, yet I  initially resisted the idea that how you spend money is a "psychology issue" and NOT just "a math problem".  Yet like debt..the older I get I realize that so many of the things I do with money are about how I think and feel...vice how well I run a spreadsheet.

Your kiddo is lucky to have such an engaged Mom.  Keep up the good work!

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I can't tell you what to decide- as FF said, there's a lesson to each decision.

I have experienced what it feels like to be over extended financially, both as a child and as an adult. This is a stressful situation.

As a teen, my father over extended himself to provide what my BPD mother wanted. I emphasize want, not need. He did meet our needs but he was financially strapped and tense about it and this was very apparent to us. I chose to attend an affordable college under these circumstances.

Later on, as a student myself, I experienced financial constraints. Shortly after, I somehow learned the idea of spending within one's means and how this isn't necessarily related to income. People can spend beyond their means at any income. I learned that ( beyond meeting basic needs- you need shelter, food, clothing) spending within one's means might sound like someone is going without. However, there's a certain freedom in this. There's an emotional aspect to debt.

It sounds like if your child attends this school- you will be more overextended- and not just for one year - it's a several year commitment. Your D will still have her wants, as all teens do. A dress for the school dance, doing things with her friends. The cost of clothing and shoes is higher for teens than children- as they approach adult size.

There isn't a way for children your D's age to fully understand this kind of financial decision. I don't think I did as a teen, but I did feel the stress and tension and experienced my father snapping at me if I asked him for a new dress and the arguments between my parents.

As FF said- your D will either experience this new school and then learn that there are other things she can't have, in order to budget for it. Or she will learn that the school is not within your budget if you say you are unable to afford it. On your part, please consider the additional stress on you if you decide to send her.

[Mommeredith81]

Thanks to both of you for reading my long post and bearing with me for so long! It really helps when I can't talk to the person I actually *should* be deciding this with, and when I question my perspective so much.
It IS a decision for a few years.
Yes, Formflier, a Dad's perspective DOES help. I did want to make sure he wasn't changing his mind, and he's not. Which is fine for me for now. We'll revisit next year. And by the way, before my divorce, I had excellent credit and enough savings that I could have bought a car with cash (well, a cheap one) and hated debt. But I also knew during the divorce that paying for a good lawyer at the time could save me money later - so I paid for my lawyer via credit cards. And that's why I'm in so much debt. Also didn't want to deny my kids experiences (small vacations, etc).
NotWendy, correct. The small amount of credit I have left needs to go to things we need and things kids ask for. It'll be very stressful to be so far in the hole we can't get out. The grant the school gave us is a nice one so I do feel kind of bad - the money seems like an amount I should be able to come up with on my own, but yes it's a commitment for a few years. I'd rather start next year if I can.
Things could change. Sassy daughter may not even want to apply again in 6 months, but it seems like she will. And if she doesn't, well, then, no issue. But we do have a few PC meetings between now and then, and that gives us time to get ex on the same page. I feel hopeful I'll be in a better financial situation for next time, if there is a next time.
It's just hard to say no to something you like - it's like being unemployed and getting 2 great job offers and not knowing if you're doing the right thing if you turn 1 of them down. (That happened to me a few years ago. I think I did make the right choice, and it's hard to know. I don't think about it much, so I probably did. But I've also had regrets and questioned myself 1,000 times on things I missed out on, and so I guess that's why I didn't want to take the easy way out here.)
We have to pass this school often, and that makes daughter sad, but I've tried to turn that into a positive and tell her some things that we could do to make up for it. So we are moving forward. I just may still question this after I give it up.
(And what if I say no next week or the school offers us more money? Then I'll be in a tizzy again about what to do. ;) But I think I will email them Tuesday to say we can't go next year, but I know my daughter hopes to join the school community someday. They are back from break and will likely reach out.

[ForeverDad]

On the one hand, it would be good for him to have "some skin in the game" by financially supporting his daughter, even if it is only a little.  So be careful about stating you'll foot the entire bill.  My sense is you're signaling a level of "I have to shoulder this no matter what."

On the other hand, besides his mental predispositions and issues, he may feel "I didn't sign on to this, public school was expected and factored into child support, added tuition expenses, not so much."

I can't side one way or the other.  All I can add is that once you make a decision, then your stress should dissipate.  Choosing a path and taking that first step is the hardest, the next steps will be much easier to contemplate.

[formflier]

Hey...no need to get into exact details and figures...but it would be a helpful process to figure out "what it would take"...to pay off all your debt in a year. 

A related idea, why not take the money you would spend to send your D to school...and pay that towards paying off for a year.  That way you could actually experience what it would be like to have that money "leave" your wallet each month for a year.

If it turns out you handle it just fine, then your decision next year is very easy...or at least finances aren't a major part of it.

If you are not able to "pay for school" for 12 months...then it would seem unwise to even let your child reapply. 

If you "paid for school" for 12 months...how close would you be to paying off all the credit cards?


Best,

FF

[Mommeredith81]

I'm not going to pay those credit cards off any times soon. It's almost all divorce debt. I haven't even had a chance to wrap my head around other ways out of it than to pay the minimum each month. Maybe I have to look at that this summer.

[formflier]

So..really more of a math question.

You obviously have a number of how much per month it will be to send your kid to school this year.

So..take that number and "send her to school"...but actually send that as extra to your debt.

Then 11 or 12 months from now you look back and can see if you were able to make those payments "easily"...or if you "barely made it"...or "missed it by a long shot".

Then you knock out two birds with one stone.  You get to "feel" what it's like to pay for private school...and you also get to pay down some debt.

Thoughts?


Best,

FF

[Mommeredith81]

It's a good concept. I may well try that. Thanks, FF!

And try to figure out other ways out of debt. Way too much interest each month.

[Notwendy]

I am going to propose an idea...

How to manage money is an important skill- something we want to know and also a skill we teach our children. ,

I understand that certain circumstances involve debt/loans at times. Most people would not be able to buy homes, or cars, and in your case, pay a lawyer- for things that are important for them.

Managing a loan is part of managing money. Financial advisers often propose plans along the lines of ( and the percentages are according to what you can manage) something like putting a percent of your salary to savings, a percent to paying off debt, and then the rest becomes your cost of living budget.

While we use numbers/math to budget, there is an emotional side to how people spend money. Money is often a big issue in a dysfunctional relationship. No two people have exactly the same ideas about money and so how a couple agrees on their spending reflects their ability to discuss it and agree, and stick to the budget. So if discussion and agreement is something they have difficulty with- money will be part of that.

I got this lesson early- in my teen age years. BPD mother has emotional needs and one is external affirmation. One way she feels affirmed is with material things. She would "have to have" something. My father always tried to make her happy by making sure she'd have what she wanted.

My father earned all the income in the family and we usually had enough for material needs but at some point in my teens, I became aware that he was in debt. He would not say no to my mother. There were arguments over money that we heard. The stress on him was evident. I would approach him about how we could spend less and his answer was that we could not. Then, if I asked him for something I wanted he'd snap at me. I don't think he'd have acted like this if there wasn't the stress.

There's an emotional cost to debt. While some debts may be necessary,   having a plan to pay off the debt can bring a sense of control which helps with the stress. So what is a better "gift" to your daughter- making a plan to pay off this debt or over extending yourself with this school?

For most people, we see things we want, and then think about if we can afford them. Teens will want material things. They want what their friends have, or what they see on TV. It's up to parents to say honestly if they can't afford it "honey this isn't in the budget". This is how teens learn about budgets.

My own thoughts to this are- if you are only able to pay the credit card interest every month, then can you afford to take on the cost of a private school, especially since her public school is adequate?  When someone only pays the interest off a loan, the debt remains and over time becomes a much larger sum of money paid in total. Self care can include having a sense of control over your budget and this debt.

It is still your choice though but something to consider.

[formflier]

My own thoughts to this are- if you are only able to pay the credit card interest every month, then can you afford to take on the cost of a private school, especially since her public school is adequate?  

How else would you propose to figure out "if you can afford it"?  (it being the monthly cost of private school)

Also...please don't read any criticism or negative judgment into my ideas or words.  My Dad, Grandfather and Uncle were all bankers in addition to being farmers.  (Think a town with one bank that was named for something in the town...not a chain)

I'm certainly not a "never debt" person.  The family bankers (above) always pushed their clients to identify "what will this debt improve or solve?"   They were usually generous and  easy on qualifications for those with a well thought out plan.  They often turned people  down (even if they could "afford" the loan) when it was obvious they were using debt to "avoid making choices"...or because it was the easiest path.


From all appearances, it appears you "made a choice" to use debt to get to a better and more productive lift (on the other side of divorce).    Nothing to be negative about there...although I imagine you have "very complicated feelings" about the entire divorce process (and that's probably a polite way to say it)

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

And interest rates are only going to go up.  If you're only paying the monthly minimums, that's an attention priority.

Me?  I divorced over 15 years ago.  My current mortgage balance is more than the balance before the divorce and equity payout.  Recently I refinanced to get a lower rate, but I still have nearly 15 years to go.  I have no revolving CC bills because I pay them off every month.  My old car got crunched last year in a slow motion oopsie.  I need all the new safety features and now have that monthly payment as well.  Right now my SS pays less than half my monthly expenses, the rest comes from my retirement.  I wonder what I'll do when that runs out, though I feel in better financial shape than you.

[Mommeredith81]

Yeah, I know, I know, debt sucks. I really had zero debt and plenty of money in the bank before my divorce. But I'm not going to say no to small vacations and stuff for my  kids right now. (I don't have big expenses otherwise...I'm fancy like Applebee's)  ;)

If I get decent financial aid, the monthly cost of the private school isn't so high. I'm already planning to say no for this year. I do think in a year's time I'll be in better financial shape if she gets in. I have a steady job and some other money that may come in.

Yeah, I should think about interest rates rising and such. I just hate thinking about money. But I guess I have to set aside time for that (because you know us single parents have so much extra time, ha ha).

Thanks for all your thoughts and advice. I got a nice email ready to send the school on Monday, declining. I do hope my D gets another chance in a year. Also hoping they don't think badly of us now that they know I have sky-high debt.

[formflier]

  I just hate thinking about money. 

It's a good thing that you can "see" and express how you think about this. 

I'm also just as sure that this is an area of your life to "dig a little" and see what's behind this.  Most likely what you find will help you be a better parent, especially if it helps you guide your child to a "more effective" way of looking at money.

Do you also have insight about "why you feel the way you do about money"?

Best,

FF

[Mommeredith81]

I just have so many stressors, thinking about money is one more. If I focused on that, my life would be too depressing. I manage.

So anyway, last Monday I emailed the school to say my daughter can't attend this year, but we may apply again for the following year. It's still breaking my heart though, even more than hers. I worry about her not getting in next year, but I'll have to prepare her for the possibility. And I guess she could always try for 7th grade the following year too, but things get harder.

I wish I could have made the decision 2 months from now. Ex and I will meet with PC late next month and I'll have to talk about her applying again.

I did reach out to him once more to see if he was willing to talk to PC about her attending this year, and his answer was just "I don't have enough money. I have to get a place to live." I suppose I still could have finagled a way to pay myself and gotten him to sign an agreement about that...I guess I didn't want to feel like I was dragging him into supporting it. I felt like the hurdles were too big.

I told them we couldn't send her this year because of changing financial circumstances, but we may apply again for 6th grade. They said "We certainly understand. We know _____ will be a valued member of any school community she joins. We hope we see her 'down the road'. If we may ever may be of assistance, know that you can always reach out." Do they seem annoyed, or understanding? They kind of went silent after my meeting with them, so I never knew if they were just giving us time to decide, or were peeved. I think the former, but no way to know.

[Notwendy]

I think trying to read more into it isn't helpful. They need to reply in a professional manner. They can't promise her a spot next year- she has to reapply with the rest of the applicants. They can't change the financial situation and that isn't something they can comment on. Being silent to let you decide is a professional stance. I think their response was very appropriate for their situation.

Her father replied he would not contribute financially and you aren't able to pay for it at the moment. You've informed the school. At this point, it's best to let it be and move forward. Keeping this as an emotional issue won't be in the best interest of you and your D. Having a "grass is greener" belief in this school won't help her to navigate her current school - if there's pre-teen drama, or a tough assignment. These things could also be at the other school.

[formflier]

I wish I could have made the decision 2 months from now. Ex and I will meet with PC late next month and I'll have to talk about her applying again.

 

Can I encourage you NOT to do this?  Drop the matter until your finances are straightened out.

Yours not his.

If you get to a place where you are clear (not supposing..but spreadsheet clear) that you can afford it regardless of your ex's finances...then consider applying again.

I would encourage you to "spend" your emotional reserves focused on your relationship with your daughter and your relationship with money.

Essentially I'm saying "ditto" to Notwendy saying that "keeping this as an emotional issue " is unlikely to be helpful.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I agree with not reapplying unless /until your finances change. If you do, you may risk her being disappointed again.

In addition, this attitude of "that was the better school" will impact how she adjusts to this one. Although she will change schools ( middle school) next year, it's very possible she will make friends and be happy to move on with them- if you let it happen.

Your attitude has an impact on her. One of  my extended family's grandchildren attended a school they didn't think highly of, and due to the attitude of the family, this child was unhappy. For one of my children's friends, it was their dream school and that child was very happy there.

None of this had anything to do with the school- the school was  fine. It had more to do with the parents' attitude towards it. If they believed it wasn't good enough, neither could their child.

I know of students who chose to attend a junior/community college over a more costly four year one, in order to save money. Then they transferred and did just fine in their chosen major.

While I know this is at the college level, consider your D is even younger and your influence on her is key here. I urge you to make the best of the school you can afford, and allow her to do this as well.