Not sure where to go

[Lumind]

Hello all,

New here and just taking a step to reach out and hopefully get some support from others in my shoes.

My wife has had mental issues for most of our ten years of marriage due to a traumatic childhood. She's acted out in unexplainable and unprovoked ways and we've been on the verge of separation multiple times.

About 7 months ago now, we were in a bad drawn out fight. Not knowing what else to do, I wrote her a letter listing out my feelings and saying I wanted to work things out but that I have to be respected too. She read the letter and didn't say anything to me that night.  Long story short, the next time I heard from her she had tried to commit suicide by taking a bunch of medications.

At the time I'd had enough of everything and made the decision to divorce her.  However, while she was in the psychiatric ward under suicide watch, they told me that they thought she had BPD. They listed off the symptoms and everything made so much sense.  After quite a bit of thought I decided to give the relationship another chance.

The problem is that now that we're trying to make things work, she's constantly going back to that time and blaming me for abandoning her back then. I understand where she's coming from. It's a bad place to be when you're tools that your spouse wants a divorce but I honestly thought I had to do it while she was under protection because I thought it was highly likely she'd kill herself as soon as I left if left on her own.

Anyway, it seems like she's totally blind to the way she treats me. I can't disagree with her in anything but the most trivial if matters without it turning into an all out fight.  Most fights now have devolved into her telling me how horrible I've been in the past and how I'm the one causing her problems and making her feel overwhelmed.

There's a pile of issues that need to be resolved in our marriage for us to be able to be happy together, but it seems impossible to talk about any of them because she immediately becomes extremely defensive and angry any time I've tried.

It's devolved into me basically staying quiet about the issues, letting myself and in some cases others suffer because I'm scared to bring anything up.  I'm hoping through therapy she can get better but I just don't see an end in sight and I'm starting to get hopeless...

It's good to get that down. Thanks for reading.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Rev]

I'm hoping through therapy she can get better but I just don't see an end in sight and I'm starting to get hopeless...

It's good to get that down. Thanks for reading.

Hey, 

Welcome!  I am sure that one of the ambassadors will be having a look at this and will be suggesting a places to start and where to find things here.

Let me the first to say how sorry I am that you are struggling. Everyone here will relate to what you say here.  It can be so hard to know which way is up when you are in this kind of state.

Have you listened to the book Stop Walking on Eggshells?  It's available for free here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QY4JZJonCs

It's a great place to get your bearings. As you are no doubt realizing, there are a number of decisions that lie ahead.  Make yourself a promise or two:  Don't push yourself faster than you can go, because you will likely be needing to do a lot of things on your own.  And realize that this is not a sprint - more of a marathon. Personally I have had to learn to pace myself. It has been almost 30 weeks since my separation and I am only now getting a rhythm.

Have you considered therapy for yourself?  It might help you get your bearings. You will need them, regardless of the direction you head.  BPD is an emotionally taxing condition.

You've found a great place here.  Reach out.  Listen and share. It's all part of the healing.

Rev

[Lumind]

Hey Rev,

Thanks for the reply!  I have tried actually reading the book, but I also struggle with depression which makes getting the motivation to actually do anything very difficult.  An audio version though would be much easier so I'll check that out, thank you for the recommendation. 

I actual am in therapy for myself, but I'm not sure how much it's helping.  Any time I try to introduce something my therapist suggested she mostly just tells me that I'll listen to anything they say and ultimately that the feelings I have aren't my own, it's the therapist putting ideas into my head.  Just another example of me being in a no win situation when it comes to these things.

We're in another all out brawl today because of how depressed I was yesterday.  I told her that part of it was something I didn't feel like I could talk to her about because she'd get angry, which of course, ironically, made her angry.  I finally told her today and of course, she got angry about it.  I just don't know what to do.  If I openly say what I'm feeling, I'm punished for it.  If I say I'm sad about something but don't feel like I can talk about it I get punished.  If I stay quiet and act like nothing's wrong, I may not get punished from her, but I know that's not mentally healthy...

[Rev]

Hey Rev,

Thanks for the reply!  

I have tried actually reading the book, but I also struggle with depression which makes getting the motivation to actually do anything very difficult.  An audio version though would be much easier so I'll check that out, thank you for the recommendation.  

I actual am in therapy for myself, but I'm not sure how much it's helping.  

Hi again,

My feeling about these things is that therapy is far less effective if the family system around the person.  Tell me, if I were to say that the therapy is helping you keep your head above water but you're not making real progress, would that be a good description.

Or - is it something else.

When you are in therapy, is the therapist "owning your story" or helping you grow in courage to own it on your own terms?

Personally, I believe that the therapeutic relationship is the most important part of therapy.  I'm getting the impression that you are having trouble feeling like you are being heard in therapy. I'm wondering if therapy is not mirroring for you the helplessness at home?  Hard to see from words, but my intuition is telling me that.

I am thinking that you are a tender man.  And my feeling is that your tenderness is being turned outward towards her in the hopes that "she'll come around".  Does this resonate?

You seem like you are close to putting some things together and you sound really clear here. Don't loose sight of that. I have hope for you, even as maybe you are having hope right now.

I got you in my thoughts and I got you in my prayers.

Your thoughts?

Rev

[Lumind]

My feeling about these things is that therapy is far less effective if the family system around the person.  Tell me, if I were to say that the therapy is helping you keep your head above water but you're not making real progress, would that be a good description.

I'd say it's somewhat correct, though at this point I don't know that I'm getting much more out of therapy.  I feel like I have a pretty good handle on the facts of what's going on and a decent handle on dealing with emotions due to therapy, but I don't know how much further it could take me.  It's more that outside of this relationship, I'm a happy person, I feel fairly good about myself, I'm able to keep up friends and interests, but as soon as a fight starts it just spirals so out of control.  I have hope as a person, I'm just really skeptical about the relationship working well.  At the same time though I'm fully committed to doing everything I can to make it work...Hope that makes some sense.

When you are in therapy, is the therapist "owning your story" or helping you grow in courage to own it on your own terms?

Personally, I believe that the therapeutic relationship is the most important part of therapy.  I'm getting the impression that you are having trouble feeling like you are being heard in therapy. I'm wondering if therapy is not mirroring for you the helplessness at home?  Hard to see from words, but my intuition is telling me that.

I think the problem is less that I'm not being heard, and more that I'm unconsciously reluctant to put things in the dire terms I feel that they are.  I think there's a part of me that doesn't want to admit how bad it is, and another part that if I start to really put out there how bad I feel, it just tells me I'm being too sensitive and I need to just get over it or 'man up'.  When my depression hits I have a really bad inner dialogue which makes it hard to really express my feelings, and even believe what I'm saying with my own words.  I hope that makes sense...

Things were improving in our relationship day to day for the last couple months and we were able to be more happy in general, but the problems around fighting never went away and it doesn't feel like she wants to work on it.  I guess I just have a tendency to magnify the good stuff and minimize the bad.

I am thinking that you are a tender man.  And my feeling is that your tenderness is being turned outward towards her in the hopes that "she'll come around".  Does this resonate?

A million percent, yes.  I'm a lot more emotional or tender or however you want to put it than most guys are.  I've dealt with that through therapy too and gotten to the point that I can accept that it's not only not a bad thing, but that it can actually be quite a good thing.  The problem is that I don't get the type of support I feel like I need from my wife, and her relationship with all the rest of my family and our friends (and even some of her family) is on such a razor's edge, that I feel like if I reached out to anyone else for support, I'd be endangering those relationships which is basically all I have to float on right now in the hard times.  That's definitely led to unhealthy co-dependency on her which just makes everything so much worse.  I just don't know how to stop it. 

One other thing to note is that she has multiple disabilities which means that she's basically confined to the couch most days watching TV or trying to entertain herself however she can.  She's got pretty crippling social anxiety and doesn't want to see pretty much anyone else most of the time.  All that has led to an extremely unhealthy dependence on me, since I'm the one that takes care of her and I'm almost all of her social contact.  I've tried so many times to encourage her to get out and take a class, or have friends and family come over for a while, but it's just not in the cards most of the time.

Sorry, I know I've been rambling and jumping around a lot.  I don't really know what I'm expecting to come from posting here, but I guess it just feels good to get it out and not feel alone.  I really appreciate you taking the time to respond though.  It makes me feel like someone is actually hearing me and I'm not just crying out to the emptiness around me. 

Thanks again.

[Rev]

Sorry, I know I've been rambling and jumping around a lot.  I don't really know what I'm expecting to come from posting here, but I guess it just feels good to get it out and not feel alone.  I really appreciate you taking the time to respond though.  It makes me feel like someone is actually hearing me and I'm not just crying out to the emptiness around me.  

Thanks again.

So... all of this makes total, total sense. And you will find, I think that the more you write here, the more you will begin to figure out what you want - by first figuring out what you don't want.

It is SOO hard to move forward from what we know in our heads that has not sunk into our hearts - and that's regardless of whether we stay or go in situations.  It sounds like therapy is working because you articulate very clearly where there are incongruencies between what you feel is ideal and what you feel is actually happening. What I think is not happening, and maybe where you have unrealistic expectations, is that therapy will somehow make the two of you make it work, even as you appear to be the only one doing the work.

If your partner is full-on BPD, then brace yourself for a bumpy ride.  I wonder if the level of depression you are feeling is not in itself coming from your current situation - like being depressed about being depressed. It becomes a vicious cycle. My own T pointed out that getting into a relationship is easier than leaving one, so normalizing becomes a defense mechanism, not a coping mechanism.  Does this make sense?

Keeping your head above water without encouragement will eventually catch up to you.  Perhaps the next time you see your T, you might ask them to point out the incongruencies they see in your story and situation.  It's in the gaps that the questions get asked and in the trying to reconcile the gaps through trial and error that the learning happens.

Your friend,

Rev.

PS - FYI, I struggle every day to still maintain my distance from my own negative feelings. One thing that has really helped is this site. SO many men have already reached out to me - and I too no longer feel alone. So important for men to learn to reach out like this. We are so far behind the curve - the women beat us hands down when it comes to relationship dynamics.

[Dead Man Walking]

Hi Lumind,

You sound just like I did several years ago. It is a really tough spot to be in too. I have a couple suggestions that may help you that were things I did that helped a ton.

#1 Get off the debate train. My wife and I would argue and argue going around and around with me feeling she never got what I was trying to communicate to her. She would try and draw me into these "debates" as I came to call them but when I realized no matter what I said I would never feel heard or "win" the argument. So dont participate in them. I know they would get me all riled up and in fighting mode but I had to really work a being aware in the moment that it was just going to make things worse if I threw gasoline on the fire she had started if you get my meaning.

#2 Try and depersonalize the things she says to you. My wife would say some of the nastiest things to me that hurt like no bodys business. When I realized they were coming from her BPD and I was able to emotionally detach from them I was able to see that I was not what she was saying I was and started to take a honest look at who I was and what I was doing that made the situation worse.

#3 Keep up with Therapy. I have been seeing the same therapist for 3 1/2 years and through a lot of hard work on my part and having him to talk to and give me (or not) give me a validating perspective on things. If you dont like your current therapist find one you like. A male therapist may help in this case as he will have common ground in being a guy and understanding that from a first hand point of view. This is not a knock against female therapists just my opinion.

#4 When the going gets tough, take a break. When my wife gets going I will go find a place in the house where I can be away from her and occupy myself with some activity that will keep my mind from hyper-focusing on her and the issue at hand. I have taken up building electric guitars and learning to play. I can go work on one while sitting in front of the tv. This gives time for me to calm down and for her to recenter herself. Some times this is a couple hours. Some times it is a week or two. If it is a longer period of time and I have to talk to her for some reason I make certain I keep any conversation civil. I will not discuss the problem with her or get drawn into any drama.

#5 Set good boundaries and stick to them. I have set boundaries with my wife on how I expect to be treated. How I will not engage in #1 as well as her treatment of the kids to name a few. I have talked to my therapist about them before I set them so I can be sure that they are reasonable and my own thinking is sound.

She and I still have a bunch of issues to work out but using these has made a HUGE difference in our relationship and the quality of my life.

[Lumind]

To both Rev and Dead Man Walking, I just want to say a sincere thanks.  Obviously talking about it doesn't immediately fix the problems but the tips and encouragement have already made a pretty huge difference in my current state of mind.  I think I'm going to print out the exchange here and take it with me to my next appointment this upcoming Monday and see what she thinks about everything said here.  If nothing else it's a good guide to what I need to be expressing instead of talking myself into saying things are fine. 

I'm a Christian, and there's a saying I've always liked..."Christian's don't need to be taught so much as they need to just be reminded."   I think that heavily applies to this kind of thing too.  There's a lot of this stuff I already know but I just don't put into practice and I just need to be reminded by a friendly voice to keep it up.  I get in these ruts where I feel so alone and isolated from everything that my depression does all the talking.  (btw I believe I do have some amount of clinical depression.  I'm on a medication for it that has helped my day to day tremendously but obviously it can't take away everything, nor would I want it to make me a happy zombie haha)

Much love to both of you and thank you so much for the kind words an encouragement.  I made that post not thinking much would come from it, but I think I'll be sticking around for quite a while.  Thanks again.