14 years of struggling with my wife

[GoGo]

14 years of being hurt and angry.  Anxiety has always been hard for me, but for the last two years, it's been brutal and I've sought therapy.

My therapist recommended walking on eggshells.  After a couple months, I checked it out.  OH MY GOODNESS!  THAT'S MY WIFE!

It started so sweet.  Then a few months before the wedding, she got hypercritical over everything.  She even ruined the wedding for me because I dragged five friends to the dance floor to get some dancing started before "our first dance" and she was jealous because of one of the people being a woman.

From DSM
A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects,
and marked impulsivity, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts,
as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. (Note: Do not include suicidal
or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.)
YES!
2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating
between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
YES!
3. Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
YES!
4. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex,
substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). (Note: Do not include suicidal or selfmutilating
behavior covered in Criterion 5.)
Very rare self-harm, hitting herself in big fights.
5. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
Yes.  Not often.  In big fights. "I want to die!" she sobs.
6. Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria,
irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
YES!
7. Chronic feelings of emptiness.
Not so much chronic.  Certainly often.  It varies.
8. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of
temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
YES!  Rarely physical, like less than yearly.  Mostly intense anger over nothing.
9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.
YES!  A lot of "I never said that." "I didn't say it that way."  Often followed by her saying the exact thing she claimed not to have said and insisting it's true.  Paranoia about how everybody is against her, both at home and at work.

And of course all of this is completely variable.  Like one day she's sane and the next minute, hour, or day she's totally off.

I may be crazy, and I'm far from perfect, but she's undiagnosed borderline.

Years of couples therapy on and off.  Why doesn't she get it?  Why is it that when I do the right thing, she attacks me?  Why is she so sweet in therapy and then yells at me in the car ride home?  What the heck?

So... .I'm going to try.  We have two amazing kids.  It's just rough.

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[pearlsw]

Hi GoGo,

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think marriage counseling is not necessarily a good fit for a couple when one of the partners has BPD. They recommend DBT therapy - for her. Have you heard of that?

Oh my! Yes, it sounds like she has rung all the bells here. That's tough! Is it having an effect on the kids?

As you read here though you will find there are a lot of great communication tools that can help make some improvements, or at least not make things worse. I was using some last night and today! They can help a bad situation if you can be disciplined and stick to them.

take care, pearl.

[GoGo]

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think marriage counseling is not necessarily a good fit for a couple when one of the partners has BPD. They recommend DBT therapy - for her. Have you heard of that?

Oh my! Yes, it sounds like she has rung all the bells here. That's tough! Is it having an effect on the kids?

As you read here though you will find there are a lot of great communication tools that can help make some improvements, or at least not make things worse. I was using some last night and today! They can help a bad situation if you can be disciplined and stick to them.

Oh, yeah.  Marriage counseling definitely didn't work.  We tried five or six different people over the years.  I don't blame them, though.  They can't help with what they cannot see.

I've heard of and tried CBT for myself, which seems to be like DBT.  It didn't work at all for my anxiety, but psychotherapy and medication are absolutely helping me now.  That's why I have the emotional bandwidth to really address the fundamental issues in our relationship while also running a business.

Yes, the kids are affected.  My 13-year-old daughter grouses or yells at my wife over almost every communication, especially when my wife is in her emotional stage.  With me, our daughter is 1000 times better.  My 11-year-old son doesn't get the brunt of the abuse, so he doesn't really see it or get it.  I think the real issue is that the kids fight a lot because they don't have good role models for dealing with conflict.    They're very smart and high-achieving kids, though.  Winning awards in school for academics and character.  I mean, truly amazing kids.  I could go on.

The good news is that her extreme behaviors aren't always there and they're usually not that extreme.  She's high-functioning in work life as a teacher.  Then she comes home to me and can't even change a light bulb.  So weird and confusing to me.  I mean, she's massively emotionally driven, and I'm pretty far over to the rational/analytical side.  Quite the duo.

My plan is to keep reading the eggshells book and related books.  To try these communication techniques.  To see where it all goes.  Last weekend through Monday were filled with major fights.  Then work schedules kept us largely apart other than briefly in the evening, and she's been mellow all week.  This has, of course, happened hundreds of times before. 

Anyway, I'll also try talking to my therapist about DBT.

[walkinthepark247]

Overall, marriage counseling was a horrible experience in my marriage. A complete waste of time and money (lots of it). In fact, I truly believe that marriage counseling hurt my marriage. The counselors just DID NOT get it. Much of the discussions we had would have been great for two rational, healthy individuals. But, that is not my marriage. I was very blunt about some of the violence directed at me. One counselor took the position that I must have been exaggerating and must have said something to make my wife go into a screaming, punching, kicking rage. I even tried to explain that I was lying awake at night stressing about being attacked. But, I'm a man, so I should toughen up, right? <that's sarcasm in case it isn't obvious>

It is great that you are trying to read more about relationships with pwBPD. I have as well. But, as part of my journey, I have also learned that I truly need to focus on myself. Truth be told, it is EXHAUSTING trying to constantly figure out what all the moodiness and anger is about. It got to the point where it was truly affecting my health. Don’t let that happen to you. If you need space from the relationship, take it! I know that some on this site might bristle at that. You will truly lose your way if you are continuously focusing on your spouse / partner’s needs and emotions. You cannot ignore yourself or your own needs.

I used to get so caught up in trying to understand why my wife couldn’t get control of her emotions. Now, I just have learned that she really struggles with her emotions. That’s just the way it is and it will likely continue. Even today, I am having to remember that mantra. She woke up in a horrid mood and there was a true darkness around my house when I left. I don’t know how else to explain it. Part of it is just the radical acceptance that I cannot change this person. She is going to dysregulate. Some periods of dysregulation last longer than others. That’s a part of life for me. At the same time, I am under a lot of stress with work. I simply do not have the energy to get sucked into that endless black hole. That’s for her to figure out. It doesn’t mean that I am checking out of the marriage or leaving. I am just having to reconsider and reestablish what my limits are. By limits, I mean what I can emotionally or physically take on. Likely, you will have to learn the same.

Remember, boundaries are about what you are comfortable with. Not about changing the other person. Take care of you!

[braveSun]

You're in he right place, GoGo. I'm sorry you are going through such a rough patch. Keep reading and posting. Many people here have been through what you are describing. My spouse is a high functioning pw some of the traits. Most people referred to on this site may be sub-clinical, but that doesn't mean their behaviors don't hurt their loved ones.

Interesting about your experience of MC (Marriage Counseling). I wanted MC very early in our marriage, but my spouse didn't want to hear about it. I ended up finding a good T for myself. The interesting part is she was telling me that a counselor could not understand what she was experiencing. That therapy was only for people who somehow have something wrong with them. Very reactive anti-therapy response. It felt threatening for her.

For a long time I felt hurt by her not wanting to go to MC. Now that I read stories of people on these boards, including yours, I get a better perspective.

It looks like you are very intent to do everything you can. This is a good thing. The most important is to apply your efforts where it has the best chances to affect your relationship positively.

The communication tools have helped me a lot. They do work. It took me a while to accept her condition, to wade through my own grief of the relationship as I thought it should be (and will not be), and my anger at having to show empathy for her when she didn't for me (the double standard experience). Eventually, I hear her better it seems.

So will you. I agree with you. It is exhausting. There are things you can do for yourself to create more peace and balance in your own life, and your kids' lives. Take your time. It's a bit counter intuitive at the beginning.

I have had the chance to live apart for a few months now and it has helped reducing my own stress/anxiety levels. With kids it might be a bit more complicated. But taking time off sometimes can help with finding a bit of mind space.

[zachira]

You have come to the right place where there are many people who understand what it is like to be in a marriage with a BPD spouse and to have children that you love so deeply that it makes it harder to know what to do. Please be kind to yourself and realize that you have done a great deal already to improve your marriage by going to couples' counseling for many years, something not many people are willing to do. It can be painful and discouraging to discover that your wife has BPD and now you have something to go on as to what to do next, and yes, you are perhaps feeling overwhelmed as the prognosis for BPD is not very positive. With the love you have for your children and wanting to be the best father you can be, you will learn with time how to make their home life safer and more supportive, even with their mother in the picture. You will also learn more about how to be less emotionally affected by your wife's behaviors and perhaps see some improvements on her part as you set better boundaries with her. Do take time to use the tools on this site, and to learn as much as you can by reading on the internet and recommended books. Bring your questions to this board, as there are many men here who have children still in the home who are married to a woman with BPD. We are always here to listen and support you in anyway we can. With patience, love, and determination, which you have plenty of, there will be positive changes, and you will start to see results from all you efforts in making a better life for your family and yourself.

[Invested]

Hi GoGo, my heart goes out to you. I am married almost 20 years to a high functioning BPD. She is either in denial or truly not aware. Its a tough one for sure. I also have two kids about the same ages. All of the replies are awesome. Wanted to add my thoughts and support. MC was a complete waste of time when one partner has BPD. Therapists either completely miss the BPD or are aware of it but terrified of the BPD wife (in my case). Many therapists just can't handle the intensity. In either case, it is us, the healthier partner that is the easy target for the therapist work. I thought at times the therapist were actually driven by an unconscious fear of the BPD in their room. After 12-14 years of hell in couples T, I finally got my boys in to DBT. I even entered DBT to learn the skills. My advice, immerse yourself in DBT, it is brilliant, immerse your kids in it. Give them the tools, the language, the awareness that they also have a voice and that they should exercise their boundaries and limits. The HF BPD is a tough nut... .they are cunning, sometimes they do not even think to hurt, they just do it. Watch out for their projections, their sarcasm, their speed of communication that will tie you in knots and then rip you a new one. If you can though, remember, they are in pain. It may not look like it when they are spewing anger, however, it is just a cover for shame, embarrassment, their own hurt. My DBT therapist once said, "whatever she says, no matter how much it hurts, always assume the most benign reason why - they just don't think. This is not to say it does not hurt. Yo heard above from so many great people... .take care of you … protect your limits, your boundaries, teach your kids the same. Always, always, always, look forward, with BPD spouses, no matter how clear something is that has happened in the past, they want get it. Going back there is a swamp, you will both drown. As much as I want her to get it, get the pain she dishes out, the more obvious it is to us, the less it is to them. They really do not get it. Leave it alone. Set your limits, enforce then firmly, make sure your kids understand. It's tough being a goof father and good husband at the same time. You are doing great. You have the support here, people and resources. Good luck to you. keep on keeping on. Best, INVESTED

[Teno]

I've only realized now that my approach to MC was wrong. I would have done better at listening and not pointing the issues out. It totally backfired on me as well. My uPBDw just had enough and couldn't handle it. I just got berated for the weeks we went.

Driving there and back was so crap! I so get this!

Something that is helping me was reading the "The Incredible Years: A Trouble-shooting Guide for Parents of Children Aged 2-8 Years" and doing the course. My uBPDw hardly made an effort to finish the course or book. Pretty much handled it like MC. I think the possibility of being a better parent threatens her?

When you take a punitive approach with your kids they will fight more with you and get angry. Praise them and they will listen and soak it up. play with your kids 10 mins a day and praise your kids for the week. It is amazing the change in attitude and it is contagious.

It is no magic bullet but it helps with positive parenting.

[GoGo]

About 1.5 weeks of things being pretty good.  She complained a lot about other people but not about me directly.  Then she started getting more and more negative.  When the negativity turned on me, and when she started in on the kids in front of me with a million useless criticisms, I didn't blow up at her but I didn't completely hold back.  Eventually I just insisted, as the blocked like crazy and I ignored her blocking, that she needed to stop complaining to me about everyone and everything.  I really wanted to scream at her, it was so frustrating, as she kept changing the subject and attacking me instead of hearing me on such a simple boundary.  The next day, after complaining several times, she said proudly, "I haven't been negative."  I pointed out the negative things she'd just said in just the previous few minutes, and that shocked her.  She still complained, but not quite as much.  Then hours later she said again that she'd not been negative, and I pointed out more that she'd said negatively, but at least she was thinking about it and trying.

Anyway, thanks to those of you who replied.  It's appreciated, and I did donate something to the board.

[Radcliff]

GoGo, I can definitely relate to being an analytical guy paired with an emotionally driven wife.  What a match!

As you can see from all these replies, we understand where you are, and feel your pain.  Now it's time to get to work.  The good news is that there are tools you can learn here to help make things better.  The first tool I like to start with is learning not to “justify, argue, defend, or explain” (JADE).  For an analytical guy like me, working through things point by point and trying to get my wife to understand the logic of the situation was my go-to approach.  You may have already figured out some of this on your own, but take a look at that link and let us know what you think.  Do you see some room to modify your approach?

Keep in mind, that by advocating the use of these tools, we're not laying blame on you for the situation.  But pragmatically, as the healthier of the two, you're going to need to be the one to initiate change.

WW

[GoGo]

Talked to two therapists this week, trying to find a DBT program for the wife.  One says the program is full but something might open up.  The other is leaving town and said to contact the business she worked at.  Doing all this with recalcitrant acquiescence from the wife.  We'll see.

[Radcliff]

DBT is a very worthy goal.  Take a look at this link on how to get a borderline into therapy.  The talk track for DBT is that it's skills training.  The philosophy of DBT is to support someone and help them learn tools to make life less stressful.  Don't sell it as therapy, don't say anything about a diagnosis.  Just say you support her and you really believe that it will help her.  Be wary about pushing too hard, since she may feel controlled.

It's natural to want to get help for our pwBPD, but also critical to look at how we can learn tools ourselves to help things go more smoothly.  Have you had a chance to check out that link I gave you above on JADE?

WW

[GoGo]

Honestly, the whole philosophy of how to deal with the BPD person bugs me.  There's nothing smooth about accepting her emotionally abusing me and the kids.  It's a denial of intimacy to couch all my words in a way that won't trigger a person who was constantly triggered years before I even met her.  The philosophy IS walking on eggshells, but those eggshells are going to crack themselves if I don't crack them.  I shouldn't stomp on them on purpose, but I'm going to walk where it's sensible to walk, and if she wants to lay eggshells or landmines in my path, that's her choice.  After I tried to disengage from a few conversations and that just made her behavior worsen dramatically (she screamed at me, blocked me from leaving the room and escaping her, and when I pushed past her, she barred the house door so I couldn't come back in, and then she later told me I was yelling at her and that she had barred the door after me because she was afraid I'd yell at her), I said screw it and just decided to push her into DBT.  She can go to therapy, and we can work on this together, or we can have a divorce.  I'm not taking her screaming, threats, or bull___.

I did read about JADE.  What I realized is that I'm best off just saying what needs to happen and making it happen.  She's allowed to feel controlled.  I am being controlling, in a way, but she felt controlled when I tried to avoid her criticisms.  She felt yelled at when she yelled at me and I was quiet.  She felt hit when she hit me and I tried to get away.  There's no logic here, and there's no use listening to her.  It's a waste of time.  I can't manage her behavior or her emotions.  They're not my responsibility.  If I take ANY responsibility for how she feels, she will use that as an opening to blame me for everything.

DBT is a very worthy goal.  Take a look at this link on how to get a borderline into therapy.  The talk track for DBT is that it's skills training.  The philosophy of DBT is to support someone and help them learn tools to make life less stressful.  Don't sell it as therapy, don't say anything about a diagnosis.  Just say you support her and you really believe that it will help her.  Be wary about pushing too hard, since she may feel controlled.

It's natural to want to get help for our pwBPD, but also critical to look at how we can learn tools ourselves to help things go more smoothly.  Have you had a chance to check out that link I gave you above on JADE?

WW

[zachira]

The challenge is to unblend the enmeshed feelings so that you take responsibility for your feelings and she does or does not take responsibility for her feelings. For example, she is angry and can't deal with her anger, so she makes you angry. If you realize that she is the one that is angry and not you and don't get angry back, then in effect you have let her keep her angry feelings. This is indeed challenging with a person with BPD, as he/she usually gets the other person upset, and keeping calm and centered does indeed take some practice and awareness as to what is going on inside you. You will get better at being less upset by her behavior with time, though nobody is ever unaffected by all the toxic dynamics of being in a relationship with a BPD spouse. Keep us posted and let us know how you are doing!

[walkinthepark247]

The philosophy of DBT is to support someone and help them learn tools to make life less stressful.  Don't sell it as therapy, don't say anything about a diagnosis. 

WW

My wife was recently going to a therapist that I believe helped a great deal. I wish she would continue, but I cannot control that. My wife would ardently (and sometimes violently) deny that she is BPD or BPD traits. She will accuse others of being BPD. But, she did open up to me about what she was doing in therapy. It sure sounded a heck of a lot like DBT based on my understanding of the therapy. It just wasn't called DBT and BPD wasn't mentioned. I've learned to care less about the diagnosis over time. I know what I see and I know what might help. 

[GoGo]

The challenge is to unblend the enmeshed feelings so that you take responsibility for your feelings and she does or does not take responsibility for her feelings. For example, she is angry and can't deal with her anger, so she makes you angry. If you realize that she is the one that is angry and not you and don't get angry back, then in effect you have let her keep her angry feelings. This is indeed challenging with a person with BPD, as he/she usually gets the other person upset, and keeping calm and centered does indeed take some practice and awareness as to what is going on inside you. You will get better at being less upset by her behavior with time, though nobody is ever unaffected by all the toxic dynamics of being in a relationship with a BPD spouse. Keep us posted and let us know how you are doing!

I think I got married in order to have enmeshed feelings.  To not be alone.  She also does dramatic and mean things when I pull back, and I can't stand by while she does that.  What seems to be most effective is to just shut her down when she acts up.  I don't have to do it out of meanness.  I just have to do it to protect myself and the kids.   I have a phone call to make to a DBT group now.

[Radcliff]

Can you give us an example of "saying what needs to happen and making it happen?"

Have you spoken with her about DBT yet?  Is she interested?

WW

[GoGo]

Can you give us an example of "saying what needs to happen and making it happen?"
Have you spoken with her about DBT yet?  Is she interested?

When there's shared control, she gets angry.  Why then share control?

I said she needed to get help managing her emotions or I was going to get a divorce, because I wasn't responsible for how she felt all the time, and I didn't want to be picked apart by her anymore.  More so, I didn't want her picking the kids apart anymore.  DBT or bust.  I'd call it a power play.  Maybe it is a power play.  However, it's not meant as one, because I'll follow through.  A fully-meant ultimatum.

Similarly, in the past, when there's been a major decision to make, like buying a car, she'll be paralyzed with indecision.  I'll support her by showing her options and reasons one way or another.  Eventually, after much anger and confusion that she'll say is my fault, she'll make a choice, and then, in the following weeks, months, and years, she'll blame me for how she feels unhappy with the decision that I apparently made for her or convinced her to make.  So I cut through all that and just make the decision.  If she doesn't like it, well, tough.  She was going to be unhappy and blame me anyway.  I tried to enroll her in the decision making over a car model this time around, and then I just said screw it and let her pick the color and that's it.

Also similarly, she used to yell, nag, and complain at me for how and when I washed the dishes.  Eventually I just said if she continued to do so, I wouldn't do the dishes anymore.  They were hers and hers alone.  Well, I stopped doing them many years ago, and at least the fights over the dishes stopped. The same happened with taking out the garbage and a few other chores.  In couples therapy, she brought this up, so I started doing them again a few years ago.  The abuse skyrocketed, so I quit again.

So she handles it or I handle it, but there's little in between that goes well.  Life is of course full of decisions that have to be made together.  The irony is how much she tries to get me involved in decisions.  At the grocery store, she constantly justifies her purchases to me.  "I'm getting this $3 item because of X Y Z."  "I don't need to be part of this decision.  Please don't justify it to me.  I trust you can make a simple purchasing decision on your own."  No, saying that isn't effective, and the behavior continues, as does her abject terror over me criticizing her over a $3 purchase.  She weighs in a good deal of the time when I leave a tip at a restaurant, too.  I mean criticisms over a dollar.

So yesterday, in the car, after she commented on making the tip, I said that we should have a family rule where nobody comments on what another person is doing unless there's a clear and present safety concern, not an imaginary one.  That questions were OK if they were meant as questions only, not as veiled comments.  "Why are you cooking that on such a high heat?" is not a valid question, it's a criticism.  "Can I put the butter away?" is OK.  18 hours in and no fight yet.

I've spoken to her about DBT.  We spoke with a therapist on the phone and via email, but the group class times don't work and the therapist is in a city that she feels is too far away.  She would prefer other cities, and she then listed off three that are all farther away and take much longer to get to and back because of traffic.  Which is to say that she rejected the therapist because she spoke with the therapist.  The city hasn't a thing to do with it other than being an excuse she could think of.  The city in question is, ironically, a city we drive to once a week for tennis lessons for the kids.

So interested?  No.  Willing?  Sorta... .

I'm going to look at online DBT since none of the local places work with her work schedule.

[Radcliff]

I can certainly relate to your frustrations.  Many sounded familiar to me.

Thinking about where you are now, what kind of relationship would you like to have with your wife in a couple of years?

WW

[GoGo]

I can certainly relate to your frustrations.  Many sounded familiar to me.

Thinking about where you are now, what kind of relationship would you like to have with your wife in a couple of years?

WW

A normal one.

One where she controls her emotions enough that she doesn't drive everyone in the family away.  Where she doesn't attack us constantly.  Where I can not be so stressed and tired about home life.  One where normal behavior is rewarded, and where abnormal behavior isn't.  One free of gaslighting.  Otherwise, well, I can't deal with this anymore.  She's doing her damndest to drag out seeing a psychologist for DBT.  It's delaying on purpose, I know.  The question is, will she follow through?

Right now, she's mostly in contrition.  She knows she has to do something, but can she make herself do it?  She's getting very little from me emotionally because I'm not opening myself up to more of her crap.

[Radcliff]

14 years of difficult times is a long haul.  That's tough.  Do you cycle between good times and bad times?  Are there sweet memories in there?

You have a right to want all the things you want.  It's also completely understandable that you've arrived here focused on her behaviors that you'd like to have change -- you can clearly see how problematic they are, and they cause you great pain.

I'm going to ask what I'll admit is a totally loaded question.  When you lean on her hard to get her to change her behavior, while giving her nothing emotionally, are you satisfied with the results?

WW

[GoGo]

14 years of difficult times is a long haul.  That's tough.  Do you cycle between good times and bad times?  Are there sweet memories in there?

You have a right to want all the things you want.  It's also completely understandable that you've arrived here focused on her behaviors that you'd like to have change -- you can clearly see how problematic they are, and they cause you great pain.

I'm going to ask what I'll admit is a totally loaded question.  When you lean on her hard to get her to change her behavior, while giving her nothing emotionally, are you satisfied with the results?

There have been good times.  We do cycle between them.  They're just getting farther and farther between, the kids are suffering too, and it's hard to open up during the good times when I know the bad are just around the corner.  Why open myself up just to get nailed?

When I lean on her hard, I am rarely satisfied with the results.  Results range from nothing to mediocre, usually.  However, mediocre is better than what I get otherwise.  She did, over the course of the past three weeks, manage to call one psychologist and two DBT centers.  It's a glacial pace, and I'm not satisfied with it, but it's better than nothing.  Today I gave in and started calling places for her.  It took me all of 5 minutes to leave messages with two psychologists that had yelp reviews mentioning borderline or DBT, as well as leave messages with two more DBT centers within manageable driving distance.

[Radcliff]

Where I was going with my question is that you'll get a lot more bang for your buck looking at your own behavior and changing that.  I'm not laying responsibility for the situation on you, just saying that you control yourself, and by learning some of the tools here, you'll be able to get some improvements that will be within your control, which is great, because in my experience, waiting for our pwBPD to make an improvement is a sure recipe for over-the-top frustration.  DBT therapy, on the other hand, is one exception where I'd say use all of your wits to try to make that happen.  But if it's simply something you're driving hard for that she is not interested in, you won't be successful.

I think you would find it valuable to look at this page on how to get a borderline into therapy.  There's a video at the end by a clinical researcher who figured out how best to approach the challenge of getting someone to get past unawareness of a mental illness and into therapy.  The video is long -- an hour and forty minutes -- and the example he uses is about schizophrenia, but I was patient and watched the whole thing, and am glad I did.  He drops a nugget 37 minutes in, and finally gets down to business at about 1:19.  It's worth watching, but you probably also want to read his book, IAm Not Sick, I Don’t Need Help:  How to Help Someone With Mental Illness Accept Treatment.  In the video, he says that one of two things needs to happen to make it likely for someone to stay in treatment:  1. Awareness that they have a mental illness (usually not going to happen), and 2. A relationship with someone who listens without judgement and thinks they'll benefit from treatment.  He founded the LEAP Institute to train people in these techniques (www.leapinstitute.org).  LEAP stands for Listen, Empathize, Agree, and Partner.

Let us know what you think about this.

WW

[GoGo]

I've tried every possible behavior modification on myself.  Everything sensible just ends badly because her goal, conscious and unconscious, is to be in control.  Set a limit?  Oh ___.  Watch out.  The consequences for taking control from her are brutal, which is why I have told her I will leave her and take the children if she doesn't get her ass into DBT therapy and work at it.  That's something she can't stop by attacking me. 

More bad behavior continues, like last week, she called our daughter a psychopath.  I earned immense scorn Monday when I got us three scoops of ice cream to share instead of two.  Seriously.

She finally has a solo appointment tomorrow, which I will attend.  That should lead to group DBT, knock on wood.

[GoGo]

Went to first therapy appt together today.  It went well, I thought.  First time we were together with a therapist who actually talked directly about childhood trauma, emotional regulation, and things like that.  I think the therapist got it.  Knock on wood.  She also didn't yell at me on the way home.  We just had a normal meal together out.

[Radcliff]

That's good news!  DBT is a powerful program.  If she gets started and sticks with it, that would be an extremely positive development.  Good luck!

WW

[walkinthepark247]

GoGo, Any word or developments on the group DBT front? I'm specifically asking because I am curious about this as well. My spouse was seeing a therapist for an extended period who also finally "got it". Unfortunately, we simply cannot financially afford to continue those treatments indefinitely. My spouse made the personal decision to stop those therapy sessions. Glad to hear that you had a nice time after the therapy session.

I remember going to therapy sessions with my spouse with two different therapists who didn't "get it". Those sessions made my home life much, much worse.

[GoGo]

She's seen the individual therapist twice now.  They haven't really started working on things.  It's been more of a get to know you situation.  Now that she has an individual therapist, she's emailed the DBT group center, asking for admission.  Having a private therapist was their prerequisite.

We're fortunate to have enough money to pay for therapy, and I'm sorry to hear about your financial limits.  That said, my wife has complained bitterly about the money I've spent on therapy dealing with my anxiety.  I think it's more an excuse than anything.

GoGo, Any word or developments on the group DBT front? I'm specifically asking because I am curious about this as well. My spouse was seeing a therapist for an extended period who also finally "got it". Unfortunately, we simply cannot financially afford to continue those treatments indefinitely. My spouse made the personal decision to stop those therapy sessions. Glad to hear that you had a nice time after the therapy session.

I remember going to therapy sessions with my spouse with two different therapists who didn't "get it". Those sessions made my home life much, much worse.

[walkinthepark247]

As to the financing, we would make it work financially if my wife approached me about this. Unfortunately, I believe she simply used finances as a convenient excuse to quit the sessions.

[GoGo]

As to the financing, we would make it work financially if my wife approached me about this. Unfortunately, I believe she simply used finances as a convenient excuse to quit the sessions.

Yeah, I can totally see that happening.