Just need to vent :)

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hello! I'll keep it brief but OH MY GOD -- is there anything worse than interacting with someone with BPD regarding custody? I would not wish this on my worst enemy... .geesh.

My bf's current Custody Agreement states that he's only entitled to "equal access" to medical and educational records. Nothing else is stated in the custody agreement as to what other information he's entitled to (such as, information on religion, emergency contact information, etc. etc). We have re-opened communication with my BF's BPDex asking for additional information (such as his son's schedule, reading habits, etc), and she keeps on throwing out words such as "controlling," "micromanaging," "harassing," "manipulating," etc when we either ask, or just reflect/ re-state that she is unwilling to provide this information.

She states that because my BF wants to know his own son's schedule, that he's trying to gain as much "personal information" regarding her as possible and that his "need for control" is "disturbing"... .hello, pot meet kettle.   Note, she's stated multiple times that he doesn't have a set schedule (WHAT? yep -- he isn't read to, put to bed, or anything else at a specific time), that the "basic information" we're requesting is not "basic" (yes, she stated that "emergency, religion, teachers contact information, etc" all the things listed in OFW as "basic information" are not "basic", and that my BF is not allowed to contact the medical doctor or his school regarding any information because "they do not want him to" (long story regarding a TRO that was filed, TRO is no longer in place, but the doctor & school have already become negative advocates and clearly she's not going to do anything to change their minds). So thereby, we are forced to contact her for this information... .and she complains and calls us controlling when we do. Basically, anything beyond "medical and educational records" is not for my BF to have and is beyond what she needs to provide to him. The cognitive dissonance is astounding!

This is pretty much our first comm with her since their relationship ended and the custody agreement was signed -- so the communications have been pretty long-winded (so pretty much the "IFF" in BIFF), however, we have set up pretty good groundwork to demonstrate how unagreeable she is, and can use BIFF from here on out. We have a pretty good game plan on what we're going to do from here, but can I just say that it's RIDICULOUS that we must have a game plan? Co-parenting should just not be this hard ... .and his poor son is suffering throughout all of this because he's not getting any time with his dad, who is (albeit I am biased) super amazing. It's also super annoying that she's trying to imply that my BF still has feelings for her and wants to know the ins-and-outs of her life (her enabler mom even called him on Valentine's Day and hung up the phone ... we documented and called her out, to which she responded "please disregard the call" -- do you not see that you are projecting and doing everything you claim my BF to be doing? (rhetorical question, she obv does not. )  

LE SIGH. Just wanted to vent ... .it's incredibly hard to not feel gaslit with these correspondence ... .I find myself thinking, perhaps she is right? Perhaps we are not entitled to this information regarding his son... .perhaps asking these questions is controlling/ harassing? Being bullied is not easy, and it's hard to get out of the "fog."  So thank you for reading, as I know that you can all empathize and understand.  

[cdizzle]

Hello! I'll keep it brief but OH MY GOD -- is there anything worse than interacting with someone with BPD regarding custody? I would not wish this on my worst enemy... .geesh.

My bf's current Custody Agreement states that he's only entitled to "equal access" to medical and educational records. Nothing else is stated in the custody agreement as to what other information he's entitled to (such as, information on religion, emergency contact information, etc. etc). We have re-opened communication with my BF's BPDex asking for additional information (such as his son's schedule, reading habits, etc), and she keeps on throwing out words such as "controlling," "micromanaging," "harassing," "manipulating," etc when we either ask, or just reflect/ re-state that she is unwilling to provide this information.

She states that because my BF wants to know his own son's schedule, that he's trying to gain as much "personal information" regarding her as possible and that his "need for control" is "disturbing"... .hello, pot meet kettle.   Note, she's stated multiple times that he doesn't have a set schedule (WHAT? yep -- he isn't read to, put to bed, or anything else at a specific time), that the "basic information" we're requesting is not "basic" (yes, she stated that "emergency, religion, teachers contact information, etc" all the things listed in OFW as "basic information" are not "basic", and that my BF is not allowed to contact the medical doctor or his school regarding any information because "they do not want him to" (long story regarding a TRO that was filed, TRO is no longer in place, but the doctor & school have already become negative advocates and clearly she's not going to do anything to change their minds). So thereby, we are forced to contact her for this information... .and she complains and calls us controlling when we do. Basically, anything beyond "medical and educational records" is not for my BF to have and is beyond what she needs to provide to him. The cognitive dissonance is astounding!

This is pretty much our first comm with her since their relationship ended and the custody agreement was signed -- so the communications have been pretty long-winded (so pretty much the "IFF" in BIFF), however, we have set up pretty good groundwork to demonstrate how unagreeable she is, and can use BIFF from here on out. We have a pretty good game plan on what we're going to do from here, but can I just say that it's RIDICULOUS that we must have a game plan? Co-parenting should just not be this hard ... .and his poor son is suffering throughout all of this because he's not getting any time with his dad, who is (albeit I am biased) super amazing. It's also super annoying that she's trying to imply that my BF still has feelings for her and wants to know the ins-and-outs of her life (her enabler mom even called him on Valentine's Day and hung up the phone ... we documented and called her out, to which she responded "please disregard the call" -- do you not see that you are projecting and doing everything you claim my BF to be doing? (rhetorical question, she obv does not. )  

LE SIGH. Just wanted to vent ... .it's incredibly hard to not feel gaslit with these correspondence ... .I find myself thinking, perhaps she is right? Perhaps we are not entitled to this information regarding his son... .perhaps asking these questions is controlling/ harassing? Being bullied is not easy, and it's hard to get out of the "fog."  So thank you for reading, as I know that you can all empathize and understand.  

[david]

Questioning whether I was right or wrong was one of those things I remember too.
 
I only communicate through email. I actually got rid of texting for several years so she could only email me. When she found out I had texting again she sent me a text. I deleted it without opening it. Our court order says email is the way to communicate.

I found that having a solid court order that covers everything you can think of is a major help. It took me about three years from the time she left until we were in court, again, that I had everything nailed down for our custody order. I wrote 14 points and the judge copied 13 of them exactly as I wrote them to our order. Ex tried to get around several of them but I stuck to the order. Eventually she stopped trying. That was in 2010. Things are much improved.

[cdizzle]

Thanks, @David. We only communicate through OFW direct messaging. We've asked her to update the tabs and calendar on OFW numerous times so we don't need to direct message but she refuses and says she didn't agree to it and its not in the Custody Agreement ( and also that asking for this info is controlling, micromanaging etc etc).

Thanks for the info on the court order, i think I've read some things you've posted on other threads that discussed that so i let my BF know and next time he heads to court his plan is to have everything in the agreement explicitly stated, knowing the only thing she'll probably produce is documents putting my BF down... And probably things showing how she's such a "great mom" (his educational test scores, etc). If we are positive and solution-focused (rather than negative and problem-focused) we figure the judge will likely side with us... Or least give my BF more than he has now.

Glad to hear things are much improved... Gives me hope! thanks again.

[david]

We were in court and the judge said he would not make a decision until we handed in our individual proposals. He gave us two weeks and said he would then make a decision the following week. I wrote out the 14 points. It took me about 10 days and then gave it to my atty. I got to see ex's proposal and it was a two page rant on me being abusive, etc. There was nothing about our boys in it at all except that I shouldn't see them at all. So yes, being solution oriented works in court. All my points focused on our boys and how to handle holidays, pick up times, changing something because of circumstances, etc. It was all the "normal" stuff you have to deal with. I had it all written so there was no room to "interpret" how things are handled. It was all reasonable and didn't pick a side. It was about the boys having a relationship with their parents. I also had written that all communication is to be done through email. I am sure the court viewed that as reasonable. For me, it was a way of eliminating he said/she said. It's about the presentation.

[ForeverDad]

Every time we arrived in court, the court didn't seem to be moved by the obstructions my Ex was doing.  The court's responses were minimalistic. just enough to resolve the immediate issue.  However, after we started becoming regulars there, revolving door litigants, in time stronger measures were approved.

My ex had temp custody and temp majority time during our separation and divorce.  But after two years her poor behaviors became apparent and she gave up a lot, I walked out with equal time and joint custody in Shared Parenting.  But her lack of cooperation and even obstruction continued.  I then spent 1.5 years seeking custody and majority time.  I got the custody but didn't get majority time.  predictably her lack of cooperation and obstruction continued.  Back in court again for nearly 1.5 years just to get majority time.  At last I got it but the court still gave mother "one more try" and kept summers equal.

I started at the bottom of the barrel but over time revisits to court made things better.  Most parents here don't get full custody but you should have reasonable expectations that your BF's parenting will get better.  Mother will obstruct of course, she feels entitled, she doesn't see Dad as having any Authority.  What she ignores and can't perceive is that the Real Authority is the court.  At first court won't want to do much more than the immediate issue needing the least action but with good presentations and proposed solutions, it should increasingly grant Dad more and more parenting involvement.

[david]

The funny thing is that is the way it worked for me too. Ex was bringing me to court for all kinds of minor things at first. I wasn't prepared at first because everything was a big blur/shock. I was emotionally too attached and couldn't see past the bs. I got to a point of accepting ex was not going to change. I then  started looking for solutions to problems. Ex was no longer "winning" in court and she reduced our visits. During that time I started documenting everything that my atty said he needed to adjust things. I filed for more time. Ex used her atty and legal maneuvers to delay going to court. After close to three years we were in court. I had so much evidence by then that I was able to get more time with our boys. When she "lost" that time it seemed she had given up. I was so far removed emotionally and I believe she realized that. I was just focused on our kids. I had an answer for every question her atty had and the judge had. The judge challenged me on a few things and I stood firm with my answers. I displayed a confidence that I knew what I was talking about because I believed what I was saying. I never disparaged ex and stayed focused on the boys.
I learned how to play the game. During that time I had emails for whatever I anticipated ex would say. She was on the stand and said an outright lie. I had no proof. Ex kept looking at me while on the stand. I took a blank piece of paper and handed it to my atty. I said something to him like she wasn't telling the truth and he took the paper. My ex changed her story on the stand. I realized she thought I was giving him something that would prove she was lying so she changed her story right there on the stand. That moment I realized she knew when she was lying and when she was telling the truth.

[cdizzle]

Yes! Thank you both -- after reading Bill Eddy's book & a bunch of threads on here (which I have seen incredibly insightful and useful replies from both of you) I think I have a pretty good idea of the future game plan, and my BF does, too. And, even though I still think my BF needs to at least research new attorneys, I think his attorney actually did a lot better for him than initially realized. I think his attorney recognized that my BF had a losing hand (his strategy was to out-victim the ultimate victim -- not smart), so she set things up so he could win the "long game" not the short game (currently, all of my BF's skeletons have been cleared from his closet and used to set up the current Agreement; BPDex has already played all her cards against my BF ... .so anything she tries to present about him being "abusive" will be out dated, while we will have more current documents demonstrating her difficulties. Additionally, as you've both discussed, we're keeping focused on his son and what's best for him -- everything we ask of the BPDex is for the betterment of their son, and she continues to obstruct every step of the way -- we're hopeful the judges will see that, and my BF even said that his attorney advised him that most judges in our family court system HATE women who play the game like that, so we're hopeful things will vastly improve). She probably could have advised him a lot better earlier on (on not playing victim... .to wait out and document things more and head to court at a later time), but based upon everything I've read on here that I then discuss with my BF, his attorney actually gave him very similar advice. That said, we're still going to research other attorneys for the next go-around.

I do have a quick question -- every time you went to court was it for "obstruction of justice" or something along those lines? Was it to re-evaluate the Custody Agreement? At this point, my BF is only planning on going to court to update the Custody Agreement (fiscal reasons), and right now we are collecting documents on how she is obstructive and how my BF is more solution-focused. We doubt she'll take him to court on her own fruition (although anytime we bring up anything, her immediate response is to "contact her attorney", as she knows that if they do go to court, my BF will end up with more than he currently has now. I agree about the ultimate Authority ... .right now we think she's under the perception that the ultimate Authority sides with her because she has full legal and physical, but we don't think she fully comprehends that the courts want you to use them at last resort, not first, like she keeps on presenting -- and that if she keeps being litigious in her handling of our requests, the courts will not look kindly to her.

And, sigh, I am sorry to hear about both of your experiences with going back and forth to court and the lying and accusations (we just know she's going to do that, lie, accuse, etc etc) -- that's our expectation, that this will be a years long battle to get to 50/50 (and we're hopeful for full legal or at least "decision making", but the journey to get there is just horrendous. Thanks again though, definitely gives me hope.  

[ForeverDad]

I was in and out of court for 8 years.  For several months we were separated and despite her facing a Threat of DV charge, in family court she was defaulted to temp custody and majority time.  When I filed for divorce that temp order again defaulted her to temp custody and majority time.  That was nearly two years.  During that time the court never improved the temp order but some of her behaviors became evident to the court's social worker (parenting investigator) and the custody evaluator which caused her to blink on Trial Day and I walked out with Shared Parenting, equal time and Residential Parent for School Purposes.  (I figured she would move more often than me and so I decided I needed to avoid that risk.)

I filed a couple Contempt of Court motions.  I also filed Change of Circumstances seeking full custody.  Then when that wasn't enough I filed for majority time.  Looking back, though it felt I was always in court, there weren't all that many actions.  It's just that they took so long.  Divorce took 2 years, getting custody took 1.5 years and getting majority time also took 1.5 years.  Plus there were a few smaller actions.

As for BF's case, if there are other issues to address, best to include them if possible.  Courts evidently don't want to grant every request.  Maybe it fears one parent being the Winner and the other the Loser.  Whatever the reason, it is usually good to request a basket of improvements, putting the important ones first of course, that way it gives the judge some leeway to nix or object to a few things so BF doesn't "win" everything.  It's the same with negotiation, a good negotiator asks for extra so that when some issues are lost the person still walks away with enough gains to be satisfied.

It's called... .having Strategies.  Just walking into court brimming with sincerity and fairness and seeking justice (from a judicial system) isn't enough.  We're good with strategies here in peer support.  We've been there, done that.  Take advantage of our collective experience.

[david]

My ex ran away with our boys in 2007. Went to court a few weeks later. SS's, her kids from her first marriage, testified that I should be the primary parent. Judge gave a temp order giving me majority time and ex had EOW supervised. She was livid and went after ss's. When the hearing came up we had another judge. He believed in the tender years doctrine. That is that mom's are better at raising small children than dad's are. Ex got primary and I got EOW.
Ex filed three protection orders over the course of three plus years. I slowly got more time each time we went to court. It wasn't overnights but I could pick the boys up[ at school instead of her place. I got every Monday for dinner. I then got every Thursday. I filed for change of circumstances in in late 2008 for more time. That took until late 2010 or early 2011 to get to court because ex kept getting continuances. By then I had so much overwhelming evidence that mom did nothing when it came to helping them with school work. I got 50/50 throughout the year. Ex took me back a few times after and I never lost time. We had court ordered custody eval. Ex threatened the evaluator with jail time ? Another time we got court ordered co parent counseling. That was for a minimum of ten months. Three or four visits and the evaluator said to me, with ex in the room, that he didn't think we would achieve anything and asked if I was okay with not coming anymore. I questioned it since it was a court order and he said he would wrote a letter to the judge to end it.
I still get emails threatening to take me back to court. I ignore them all. Nothing ever came of any of the threats. I view it as a child having a temper tantrum. You can't feed into it because it will not improve if you do.
Ex actually filed for divorce in early 2008 and then she kept dragging that out and we got the divorce in late 2010 or early 2011. It coincided with my petition to modify custody. I viewed that as a way for her to get me/hurt me at least in her mind ? By that time I was just glad that chapter was coming to an end.