What Happened When I Tried to be Selfless

[DrA]

Married to a BPDw, I was totally confused as to why I could not get my own marriage to function smoothly.  What I came up with was what I thought was a pretty fool proof theory for happiness in any relationship.  

What I did was I eventually developed a theory that basically said you needed to be selfless in order to find true happiness and the other person would surely respond in kind to that.  Thus you would both be happy!  Simple enough.  Though I have written info and diagrams all about it, that is the basic principle.  Be selfless in your relationship and you will find happiness.  I did not factor in mental illness.  

Though, I do think some things have definitively improved over the 17 years of our marriage, there is way less improvement than I would have suspected.  In fact a couple of years ago, I asked my wife what she thought had made our relationship last for so many years after such a rough start (First year was a total nightmare).  I totally expected her to have noticed how wonderful and selfless I had become.  I thought she would say that I became so much easier to get along with or something that acknowledged that I had really changed and become this selfless saint!  

Surprisingly, she said that after our first awful year of marriage, she was the one who had decided she was just going to be as selfless as she could be in our relationship and that had really made all the difference.  What?  I was floored!  She was robbing me of all of my good martyr thoughts and feelings! I began to explain away my feelings and say well, I guess we both tried our best!  Isn't that funny that neither one of us noticed how hard the other one was trying.  

However, upon further reflection, I wondered how two people trying so hard to be selfless in a relationship could possibly still feel like the other one is not trying very hard at all.  Then it hit me.  I wondering now after being on these forums, if it only makes sense if I look at it through the lens of BPD.  See, through that lens, no matter how hard I try, she would still feel like no one cares about her or notices all she does.  And so she rages.  Which in turn makes me not feel loved at all. Thus we both feel like we are being selfless, but neither of us can see it.  

Perhaps others have this unhealthy cycle in common?

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[CastleofGlass]

Well, in my experience, I had a great moment being married to my uBPDw this past Saturday. I believe we have all had those moments, though brief, where the BPD is non-existent and you almost feel as though this is what a normal loving marriage feels like. My wife and I had a great day moving things around the house preparing for our 5th child. She is in nesting mode, which means for me a lot of moving furniture around. All the other kids were being particularly good and her and I had been laughing and joking all day. That evening, after the kids went to sleep, we had our quiet time in the living room. She spoke in an angelic voice (I swear this is what it is when she is showing no signs of BPD at all) about how well I had been helping her out the past few months. Taking over most of all chores and giving the little ones baths on bath nights. It felt good to hear how she was complimenting my actions. Those moments only come maybe 2-3 times a year, but I try to take it all in and those are the moments my therapist has told me to hold on to when things are going poorly. That came the very next day when we tried to take all 4 kids and 2 dogs to a vet clinic. Complete chaos and ended up leaving early because one of our dogs would not cooperate. Lost our whole Sunday to her BPD cloud over the house and parts of Monday. It's been a short leash since.

What gets me about your situation DrA, is that I would almost be afraid to be a marriage therapist married to my uBPDw. She would take anything I say as I must know it all because I have a degree in this sort of thing. She would most certainly laugh off what I said as trying to bring my job home and it wouldn't work on her. I could see the arguments now in my head. I really feel for you. Hopefully she has not used your job against you in that way.

[DrA]

I def see the "angelic" side of my wife.  I am totally grateful for that.  Sounds like my wife is better than most BPD's in that I always say she is the sweet loving kind girl I married for about 5 minutes of everyday.  It is usually at night in bed when all of the kids are in bed and her phone is off and she seems to remember she likes me again.  I adore those moments!  Just as with any BPD relationships, sometimes I think life couldn't get any better and that I am so happy.  Then, completely out of the blue a tirade tantrum happens.  Very confusing.  Though she snaps at me and is very defensive and a host of other not awful things, she does seem to take it out on the kids a lot.  She used to do it more with me, but I think I became a less easy target.  Now I just feel awful for them whenever they are getting the heat. 

On the other note, my wife often brings up the fact that I am "therapizing" her when I talk to her in a calm voice when she is raging.  It really ticks her off.  She thinks I am talking down to her by doing that.  I try to explain that I am trying to deescalate the situation, or that is just how I handle stressful situations, but she doesn't buy it.  She is pretty certain I am just trying to show how "crazy" she has become.       

[CastleofGlass]

she does seem to take it out on the kids a lot.  She used to do it more with me, but I think I became a less easy target.  Now I just feel awful for them whenever they are getting the heat.

I have noticed this in situations as well. Depending on the situation, if I'm present and how bad she is reacting, I have no problem stepping in and smashing the dysregulation with a Thor sized hammer of I don't think so. During a dysregulated moment a few days ago, my 2 year old daughter was kicking the back of my wifes chair in the car. uBPDw was already pissed off about a situation that had occurred 15 min earlier and had already dropped a "f**k you" to me when I told her not to snap at me in front of the kids. My wife reached around and smacked our 2 year olds leg and yelled about as loud as you possibly can "I said stop kicking my f**king chair". If looks could kill, than the look I gave her would have killed her and the next 4 generations from her. I immediately stared her down and said "you better calm down" in a threatening tone. The one thing I will not play with and the one situation in which I don't back down is anything over the line with our children.

[DrA]

Castle of Glass, What would you consider over the line?  I often wonder if calling (yelling) a child an idiot for dropping a container of spaghetti, or telling (yelling) another child to quit being a moron is crossing a line, or am I just too sensitive because my mom or dad would have never said those things.  And How do you step in without causing more wrath toward me for butting in or more convincing from her that the child really deserved to be called an idiot.   

[Notwendy]

I'm a mother and I am cringing at these posts.

Terms like idiot and moron should not be addressed at children. Kids make mistakes, they drop things, they kick chairs. You can say something about the behavior, but not make it about some bad characteristic about the child. This hurts their spirit.

The root word of discipline is disciple. It is used in biblical terms but it is more than that. A disciple is your student, who looks at you as a role mode. They learn to be like you by looking at what you do and what you say. Also a positive is better than a negative.

F*ck you to a 2 year old... .you will have a 2 year old screaming F*ck you everywhere. He will eventually say it at school or in front of a friend's parents. Those parents will not let him play with their kid anymore.

"Quit being a moron" You just called your kid a moron. He will believe it. Then he will act like a moron.

Ignore your 2 year old until he is kicking and acting out? Well he learns how to get your attention. He will kick more. A kid would rather have his parents scream at him than ignore him.

There are many books on positive parenting. You may not get your wife to change, but if you can do some of this, your kids can benefit.

As to being selfless? Really? I am not a marriage T, but complete selflessness doesn't sound like a great thing to aim for because I do not believe that anyone can be completely selfless all of the time. I may be skeptical, but the people who I know who believe they are completely selfless are really self seeking in some other more covert ways. The best of us can muster this up at times, but we all want something from our marriages.

The idea that selflessness leads to the other person reciprocating in selflessness is a false notion because we have no power over someone else's behavior. Doing something selfless with the intent to change another person is not selflessness.

Actions- such a being kind, loving, caring, are good qualities to bring to a relationship, but we can not do these at the expense of our own self care. At least that's how I understand it as a lay person.

[Stalwart]

Hey DrA:

It's good to see you've found the site and that you have a recognition of the situation you're in. I'm fortunate that my dBPD wife was not the mother of children or part of their upbringing. To be honest and fair to her in that statement she never had children by her choice knowing that she would not have made a good mother.

I think it’s vital, especially with a BPD wife that every care be taken with the children’s upbringing. Should either be genetically sensitive to the disorder than it is even more important to shelter them from personal persecution or harmful, demoralizing statements as children. I’m not saying your children are affected and that won’t become evident for years if ever. I am saying that you can’t control the variable and possibility of the genetic inheritance, but you certainly can control the environmental effects that could worsen your child’s development. The risk of BPD put aside, is it right under any circumstance to intentionally demoralize your own children. That’s a rhetoric question because the answer is evident.

Honestly my friend, difficult or not given your situation, my first priority in changing around my relationship and life with my wife would be absolute attention to the effects of the relationship and cohabitation with regards to the kid’s welfare. Not a judgment or  lecture my friend, just an observation.

Question I’m a bit lost on term selflessness. Could you explain that in context of your actions? I know I’m struggling a bit understanding exactly what you mean by that term and can see some others are. I’d sincerely like to know how that relates to you in a physical and emotional context of everyday living.

another question. Have you ever had couples in relationships that are affected with this disorder as clients?

In the mean time I certainly hope things are going well.

[Notwendy]

I apologize if I came on strong. I am a momma bear when it comes to kids, in part, because I was subjected to emotional abuse at the hands of BPD mom.

I also think that selflessness needs to be carefully considered because it can spill over so easily into co-dependence.

My father was the most selfless man I know when it came to my mother. His only wish was to make her happy. However making mother happy didn't leave much room for anyone else at home to be who they were. Consequently, being selfless was all I knew.

That wrecked havoc in my marriage.

I don't think being a therapist makes one immune to having marital issues. In fact, it could make getting help even harder as perhaps you don't want to bring your colleagues into your personal life. Yet, in my co-dependency 12 step groups there are therapists, health care workers, teachers, and many competent professionals who have come for help.

I think being a therapist might make people hesitant to think that you could need help yourself, but it is OK to ask for help. We are all humans

[DrA]

Notwendy and Stalwart,

I do not believe for one minute that calling your child a moron or an idiot is a good thing.  I came from an extremely positive parenting background from my own parents and then in my marriage therapy practice.  unfortunately, I also hate conflict in my own marriage so much that I try to stay out of situations where my wife is losing it.  I like you can tolerate a lot toward myself, but feel blows to the gut when she says these things to my kids (she really doesn't call me names now).  I have tried to pull her aside later when she has cooled off and so as not to make her look bad in front of the kids.  She of course did not agree that it was bad and was really offended that I would term it as verbally abusive.  She couldn't believe that I would say such hurtful things to her.  Needless to say, she never agreed that boy she should not have said those things.  However she did stop calling the kids names ... .for a few weeks to a month.  Then it began again.  My 12 yo daughter doesn't usually take it from mom.  She will actually call her on it, and Mom will back down pretty quickly in terms of saying, "I don't think you're a moron, that was just a dumb thing to do."  I don't like that either, but it is better than just leaving it her being a moron.  The other kids do not yet stand up to mom (including my 14 yo twin boys). 

I don't know.  I do love my wife.  I do not feel like I could leave her over this.  I also feel like it would be even worse for the kids to not have a mom.  (She is a really great mom in other ways.  She will defend each of the kids to the death, she hugs them and kisses them, she encourages them.  It is just when she rages that it gets ugly.)  We probably have mini-rages daily and major rages weekly. 

All in all, I would say my wife is a high-functioning borderline.  She is probably a 3 or a 4 on a 1-10 scale.  I think. 

In terms of selfless behavior I also worry about taking it to far.  I generally try everything I can to make her happy (I know I can not make her happy - therapy 101.  But that doesn't stop me emotionally from trying.)  I clean when she wants to, I wear what she wants me to, I go out to eat when she wants to.  I am not miserable, I am just trying to make things work with a somewhat volatile person.  In my view that requires some pretty major sacrifices.  the worst part is that she believes it is only her that is making all of the sacrifices.  Ouch.     

[takingandsending]

Hi, DrA   

I tried the selfless route. As a buddhist, I thought "This is my path." I think it comes down to the nuances of validation. If you find yourself validating the invalid, selflessness is not helpful, even to avoid conflicts. I  came to this conclusion because, for people with BPD, it actually is a disservice to them, reinforces already maladapted coping strategies, and increases their suffering. It sounds as if you have had direct experience of this with your wife?

Like you, I also had to admit, what do I get out of my behaviors of "taking the high road"? I do it to please, to be seen as the good guy, the saint, the martyr because that was how I learned to get through life with an unpredictable and sometime raging mother. My parents were both really loving, supportive and mostly didn't use abusive language toward us, but my mom would rage and was capable of instilling great fear and harm when she did.

For my S4 and S9, I will physically separate my wife from them when either she or they or both are incapable of harming one another. I no longer feel remorse or fear or regret when I do so. My T helped me understand that not only was I feeling like I had to do something, I really had to do something as the "adult" in the situation. And I do. In CastleofGlass's example, I would stop the car and iterate the boundary that we are going nowhere until everyone agrees to respectful speech. In a car, there is a trapped element, but I would do everything to protect my children from abusive speech. I allowed it for too long because of the FOG. I wish I could give my sons, especially my 9 year old, the protection that he deserved all those times in the past, but I can and will do it now.

My wife accuses me of treating her like a child, ignoring her rights as a parent, ignoring her feelings when these dust ups with the kids happen, and I will always do my level best to validate how crappy that feels for her ... .because it does. But I will not allow the boundary of respectful speech to be trampled. I try my hardest not to express the anger and shame that I feel during these episodes in a blaming or shaming way to my wife. She is already struggling. I don't want to make it worse. But I can't  allow verbally lashing out at the kids to continue. Parents do the best they can, but we need to be there for each other when we are not at our best. In the case of BPD, I have realized that this means enforcing boundaries for ones too little to enforce them themselves, and doing it in as healthy and loving a way as possible to be an example for them and to allow her to keep as much dignity as she can to get herself back to emotional regulation.

Sometimes, it means taking the kids out of the house and letting my wife know that we love her, and I will be back in 1 hour. You do what you have to do. Your kids may not thank you for it now, but they will eventually be happier and healthier than if you cede their well being for keeping the peace with your wife. And does it really keep the peace?

[DrA]

Taking and sending,

Love love love your post.  That makes total sense to me and you sound very similar to me in much of your points.  You have inspired me to demand respectful speach respectfully.  That sounds much more like me than just having a rigid boundary or shaming my wife in the process.  Thanks for your help!

[takingandsending]

DrA - glad to help. I am going to suggest that you try a few scenarios here on the board before you try the acid test. Boundaries take some work and strategy. BUT you have taken the best, first step - identifying what is important to you that makes you who you are. That is worth protecting. It really is, even with selflessness.

And, it also really helps our partners with BPD. pwBPD are really struggling with a poorly defined sense of self, so they lose sight of where they end and their partners begin, resulting in sticky, aggravating enmeshment in nearly all levels of communication and actions. If, as partners, we can clearly, CONSISTENTLY, define ourselves, it can actually be reassuring to someone with BPD. Clear, consistent and (to whatever extent possible) kind expression of boundaries is the biggest paradigm change in these relationships, in my own limited experience, and it really starts the process of removing the fuel from the fires of these daily and weekly rages.

Let me ask you, how do you think you fare in general life, in terms of letting people know your boundaries? As a lifetime pleaser and never-say-no person, I am quite lousy at it. But my wife is reforming me, one dysregulation at a time.   

[waverider]

BPD is a Black Hole of neediness, selflessly tipping all you have into that black hole will leave you with nothing left to give and not even leave any visible residual effect on the black hole. All you do is raise the expectation of supply.

Self protection needs to be uppermost. If you can't self protect yourself then you loose your own benchmarks on reality and are incapable of then being a benchmark for your partner.

Being selfless towards a pwBPD is not providing support it is providing supply.

MC utilizes the principle that both people are capable of seeing reality with a little coaching and that they can negotiate arrangements and commit to sticking to them. This is alien an concept to pwBPD, not only can they not do that but they expect no one else can to. They may initially agree to things in a MC session but they are just mirroring things to feel like they fit in, but they dont stick at a core level. Nothing sticks with BPD.

Without erecting strong personal boundaries around yourself they will invade your space.

[waverider]

I immediately stared her down and said "you better calm down" in a threatening tone. The one thing I will not play with and the one situation in which I don't back down is anything over the line with our children.

This is a concern

threatening tone... .or else what? insert BPD capacity to extrapolate to worst case... .

Firstly you are setting the standard of issuing threats, your wife is mirroring this and upping the anti and passing it down the line to the weakest link

you better calm down  as per above, add in the futility of you can't control what anyone else does, only what you do.

It would be better to stop the car, remove the kids and refuse to continue and let them be exposed to this type of behavior. Then only proceed once the situation has calmed down. Repeat each and everytime something like this occurs, and it will soon stop.

Alternatively you can continue to have competitions in threaenting each other in front of the kids and they will grow up thinking this is normal. They will then end up going to school and being threatening to smaller kids so they get their chance to be top dog. So it continues.

That said I can understand your frustration and reaction, i went down that path before I became more aware of how BPD works. It never solved anything in the long run. In fact it fueled resentment in both parties, priming us both for the next blow up.

[waverider]

Let me ask you, how do you think you fare in general life, in terms of letting people know your boundaries? As a lifetime pleaser and never-say-no person, I am quite lousy at it. But my wife is reforming me, one dysregulation at a time.   

This is so true, the flow on effect of learning to deal with BPD almost creates a born again personality with our ability to interact better with anyone. Self confidence spreads once it is germinated

[waverider]

Notwendy and Stalwart,



In terms of selfless behavior I also worry about taking it to far.  I generally try everything I can to make her happy (I know I can not make her happy - therapy 101.  But that doesn't stop me emotionally from trying.)  I clean when she wants to, I wear what she wants me to, I go out to eat when she wants to.  I am not miserable, I am just trying to make things work with a somewhat volatile person.  In my view that requires some pretty major sacrifices.  the worst part is that she believes it is only her that is making all of the sacrifices.  Ouch.     

pwBPD do not not have a strong sense of who they are, they rely on you to provide that for them, hence the mirroring behavior. If the person they are trying to mirror is molding like putty then they cannot respect that person as that person is not providing that firm foundation they are lacking.

You need to be that lighthouse on the rocky outcrop, able to withstand the ebb and flow of the tide and the occasional storm. Still standing and still in the same place so they can get there bearings. if you are bobbing about in the tide and drifting all over the place do to reacting to the forces around you then you are no use to them as a beacon. They will resent rather than respect you.

If you do have to pull them up and have words about something, they will hear you, though they won't admit it, as auto denial is their auto defense. Hence the less you say the more clearly they will hear the message, the less smoke that is delivered with it the more impact it will have. Ultimately it is their choice whether to take on board anything you say, but it is your job to deliver the message with the least confusion as possible.

BPD is a lot about emotional immaturity, but unlike a child they are not as opening to development as they have stunted emotional growth (hit their ceiling in development). Hence the lessons you may give to a child wont work most of the time they will just highlight their own failures and bringing on frustration and anger. Too many people fall into the trap of treating them like children.

As kids get older they start to outstrip a BPD parent in this department and hence are then perceived as a threat to the BPD parent as they start to loose control. Triangulation then becoming especially toxic. So older kids starting to"fight back" can bring on more crisis. BPD parents struggle with their "subjects" become self thinking and independent entities.

[Hmcbart]

Wife's actions with oldest child (10 at the time) was what got her to actually go to see a therapist the first time. I had a voice mail where she called me upset about him and his homework.

Both kids in the car at the time, she proceeded to yell that my son was a "so effing stupid", I could hear him crying in the back ground. I was out of town working at the time. It wasn't the first time she did something like this but it was the first time it was recorded. To this day, if he is struggling with his homework he will start crying if she is trying to help him with it. This only makes things worse because she will just get more mad.

If I'm home I will step in and send her or him upstairs to diffuse it. At least it turns her anger toward me instead of him.

Anyway after several sessions with the therapist they determined that it was my ADD and lack of help around the house that was making her so angry and she was taking it out on him. That's also when I noticed the scratches and cuts on her arms where she was hurting herself. Sadly that was also almost 2 years before I learned anything about BPD.

[takingandsending]

Hmcbart,

. I just wanted to let you know that I read your post, and I completely understand. I am so sorry that you and your son went through that. I can't imagine what you were going through on the phone. Heck, just reading it, I have feelings of anger and helplessness.

Please hang in there for your kids. Bitterness, anger and resentment are our enemies. Whatever you can do to keep your frame of mind open and fresh (or wise mind), that's the key to being there for your children. The one thing that I remind myself with my wife is that her intentions are not to harm, but when faced with her own fight/flight triggers, she resorts to what she believes works, which is to attack. It's just really not okay when it is her own children that she attacks.

Keep finding ways to express your boundaries in as healthy a mindset as possible. Teach your son that. 

[Hmcbart]

I kept the voice mail for a long time but ended up deleting it when I thought she was changing after MC. This was before learning anything about BPD. She has gotten better but it's going to take a long time to teach my son that it's not his fault. He hates when I go out of town because I can't do homework with him.

When I am home I take over as soon as I hear anything going negative.  He's a very smart kid, he has ADD and comprehension difficulties but still smart (Deans List this year in 6th grade). Every time she would be telling him he was going to fail a test because he forgot to study I would talk to him about it and he would go in a ace the test. I never really said much to her when it happened, I would just show her the test and grade and smile.

[CastleofGlass]

I immediately stared her down and said "you better calm down" in a threatening tone. The one thing I will not play with and the one situation in which I don't back down is anything over the line with our children.

This is a concern

threatening tone... .or else what? insert BPD capacity to extrapolate to worst case... .

Firstly you are setting the standard of issuing threats, your wife is mirroring this and upping the anti and passing it down the line to the weakest link

you better calm down  as per above, add in the futility of you can't control what anyone else does, only what you do.

It would be better to stop the car, remove the kids and refuse to continue and let them be exposed to this type of behavior. Then only proceed once the situation has calmed down. Repeat each and everytime something like this occurs, and it will soon stop.

Alternatively you can continue to have competitions in threaenting each other in front of the kids and they will grow up thinking this is normal. They will then end up going to school and being threatening to smaller kids so they get their chance to be top dog. So it continues.

That said I can understand your frustration and reaction, i went down that path before I became more aware of how BPD works. It never solved anything in the long run. In fact it fueled resentment in both parties, priming us both for the next blow up.

I appreciate your comments and insight into the matter. As I am still new to learning what BPD is, I am still having tough times adapting to "my role". My kids, are my life. It will take more practice in the future and I understand how important it is that I handle it properly. When my wife took the actions she did that day, my immediate reaction is protect my children from her. It is a fine line when it comes to parental instincts and how we react. I had a very poor childhood where my parents are concerned. The first thing I see is red in a situation like the other day concerning my uBPDw. There are many things I am having to change and right now, I am compartmentalizing each new character trait of mine I have to change to adapt to the BPD discovery. I will not lie to you that at this time, my reaction to my wife being a monster to one of the kids, our 2 year old daughter, will not be taken lightly by me. My threatening tone was absolutely warranted at that moment because you will not strike our daughter while you have a dysregulated moment for something that, I'm sorry, but is a stupid reason. I know it isn't stupid to her, but to the rest of the world, it is and my child will not be punished for it. End of story.

[takingandsending]

Hi Castle.

I think what waverider is trying to help you with is that, unfortunately, you can bring down even more of the verbal and physical abuse that you want to stop with that response.

Believe me, I think my wife can be an absolutely immature child when she deals with our boys. I would love to tell her to knock it off and grow up. In fact, I am pretty sure I have said just that. What do you think happened for me and my family? Things got worse. Dysregulations became more frequent.

I agree 100% with you. Physical abuse is not acceptable. Period. But threatening and shaming won't end that. Your own fight response is triggered. Be honest in that moment. Say, "I can see how getting kicked over and over would be upsetting. I am taking the kids out of the car for a walk because I need to cool off.  I love you. We will be back in 15 minutes and try again."

I have had a 15 minute car ride home from sons' school take nearly an hour because either my wife or the kids were having melt downs, and I was trying to keep a boundary of respectful speech. It was brutal. But it seems to be helping.

[DrA]

Taking and sending,

That does seem brutal!  I am amazed that you had the tenacity to do it!  I don't feel brave enough to pull that one off yet.  I can't imagine pulling the car over one time, let alone several times in an hour.  Also, my wife usually drives (a product of her needing to be in control and getting upset with my driving all the time).  Any ideas what to do when she is driving?  I can't make her pull over.  I am sure I need to be calm validate her emotions, and ask her to stop saying those things.  But when she comes back with some rational about how her anger is warranted.  Then what? 

[CastleofGlass]

Thank you for the comments takingandsending. I had just mentioned in another post of mine, my T has informed me as of yesterday, I am currently in the "anger" phase of the grieving process of discovering my wife has BPD. It is a tough process but I am working through it. Best thing I can do at this time is to compartmentalize all the adjustments to be made for myself and work on one aspect at a time.

[CastleofGlass]

Taking and sending,

That does seem brutal!  I am amazed that you had the tenacity to do it!  I don't feel brave enough to pull that one off yet.  I can't imagine pulling the car over one time, let alone several times in an hour.  Also, my wife usually drives (a product of her needing to be in control and getting upset with my driving all the time).  Any ideas what to do when she is driving?  I can't make her pull over.  I am sure I need to be calm validate her emotions, and ask her to stop saying those things.  But when she comes back with some rational about how her anger is warranted.  Then what? 

I have had a similar situation before happen and what I try to do is take over as the keeper of the peace/parent towards the children. I will say something like "I need you guys to keep it down so your mother can concentrate on the road." At that point, my wife is oblivious to the fact that I'm actually trying to keep her from blowing up further towards the kids. She will see it as I am "taking her side" in the situation which sometimes in a weird way may seem validating toward her enough to move on from her dysregulated episode.

[DrA]

Castle of Glass,

That is a great response!  The thing I always worry about is that one day my kids will say, "why didn't you ever stand up for us.  You just sat there and supported her.  or You just sat there and supported her by not saying anything about her rage.

[CastleofGlass]

Castle of Glass,

That is a great response!  The thing I always worry about is that one day my kids will say, "why didn't you ever stand up for us.  You just sat there and supported her.  or You just sat there and supported her by not saying anything about her rage.

Well, when the time comes to address to each child as to how they grew up and why certain things happened the way they did, one can only hope that when you explain it the way I did to you in my example, they will understand that you were sticking up for them by taking on the disciplinarian role in that situation. At the same time, I didn't yell at my kids in that example. My statement to them was in a stern tone, but not demeaning. One trick I have learned earlier in my marriage way before learning of BPD was that sometimes, I can take over what my wife is attempting to do as a parent regarding my kids behavior. If I am handling the situation or "take the situation away from her" in a way that she feels I am trying to help co parent and agree with her at the same time, than I can help guide our children in a more respectable manner.

The key is to throw in those little side comments you may have to grit your teeth for such as the "I need for you kids to keep it down so your mother can concentrate on the road." There are many situations where you can make it seem that you are backing/validating your pwBPD when it comes to the kids, but you do it in such a tactful way that you are actually just removing your pwBPD from the role of disciplinarian while you handle the situation in a calmer manner than they would have.

[CastleofGlass]

In other words, when the kids are misbehaving at a dysregulated moment and you and your pwBPD are there, you need to hijack the role of disciplinarian.

[Hmcbart]

Be careful how you approach this one. I've stepped in calmly many times only to have her sit there and listen to my conversation with the kids and start yelling at me or them. I have tried many things and none have worked. Well I did tell her to go upstairs that I was handling things which didn't go over well. It did serve to take the heat off the kids.

[takingandsending]

DrA,

I generally am the designated driver, but there was an occasion after a huge blow up that my wife got into the driver's side of the car. I think you have to do your best to help her keep everyone safe in those moments. I watched her, kept my voice and tone reassuring, distracted the kids from migrating back to the events that caused the torrent of anger, but I was ready to reach for the steering wheel if she had signs of reckless driving. It was nerve wracking. In retrospect, I would now take the kids to the park (just a walk for us) and let everyone cool off before getting into a car together.

Mostly, these days, we don't have the huge explosions. Consistent boundaries have helped. Validation has helped (although I am a far cry from empathetic validation). You take stuff moment to moment. Waverider has also offered that, once you get the basic tools going for you, sometimes, you have to just let your honest reactions out, too. The person with BPD is ill, but they still have their work to do as well. And seeing that I am human and get pissy from time to time is part of it. The one thing that I do try to stay away from as much as possible is JADEing. JADEing fuels the BPD fire, but it is also playing the game on their terms and it tends to damage my own self-worth. I would stay away from explaining things too much to your wife. You are doing what you are doing to take care of yourself.  

[waverider]

When things are rapidly heading towards dysregulation it is time to bail, you, and anyone you are responsible for. Negotiations rarely work, and any explosions at that stage are detrimental to everyone. You know the time, it is when you feel like you are either on a tightrope or you are on the verge of exploding yourself.

Cars are always an issue, you feel trapped, and hence to a pwBPD it puts them in that position of power which in itself fuels the risk as they know it as a safe place to attack. Being prepared is about the best you can do, it is a known risk environment so always be ready to diffuse any triggers early (eg stop kids from kicking chair before mum jumps on it, if you can), failing that have a "this is what I will do if things blow up" plan. If they know you are willing to stop the car or even get into it, then that power and hence "ambush alley" is taken away

There will always be times when it all goes horribly wrong and you react badly. Use those times to asses what you might have done better and revise your plan for next time, as there is always a next time. Most of all don't beat yourself up when it occasionally goes wrong .

Kids are not overly affected by isolated incidents it is patterns of behavior that mold them.

I went through major problems trying to protect my kids before I got a better handle on it. At that time though nothing worked in the long run. pwBPD will go into victim mode and leave you looking like an abuser very quickly. Attacking the kids knowing you will leap in is often a round about way of starting a conflict with you, it becomes a known trigger. It is in effect an act of terrorism to draw you into the role of persecutor and validating them as victim

Threats beget more threats and the cycle continues.

We do not threaten each other is a good boundary in itself, emphasized by example. After all what you are trying to change is the family environment